S08.E10: Trouble On The Family Tree

[freeradical]

"Women's liberation" is the reason a woman can no longer be fired for being pregnant, or receives any leave time at all, frankly. The rest of your assertions I will have to let go unanswered, as this is not the proper forum for that, but what you refer to as truth is, in fact, simply your opinion.

Women's liberation is about equality. It is ridiculous and sometimes vengeful by employers to ignore the fact that the two sexes are not equal when it comes to biological facts of reproduction. Just because women choose to work doesn't mean we deserve to "drop it in the field", throw it on our back and get back to work as some sort of "Isn't this what you wanted?" punishment.

Back to Kenya. However this mess started, it sucks. I heard her tell her story her first season on Atlanta and even when I truly disliked her, I never forgot that she had a hell of a head trip in her life that made her this way.

Also, in reading some comments on this thread I'd think they were written by prudes in the 1950's!

Edited January 12, 2016 by freeradical

[Aging Goth]

So they are going to deny Kenya's truths even if it paints Patricia in a slightly worse light? They know for the most part Kenya ain't wrong to feel how she feels they ain't going to nitpick about how passionate she is with her expression of events. Plus I don't recall any of them really speaking in depth about her actions. I feel that they've just agreed about the situation over all. Not really any particulars and again I would expect them to understand that it would be in bad taste for them to contradict her on this matter. Maybe that's what's about to happen with aunt Lori next week. hmmmmmm.

I just feel that Kenya wants her bio mother to connect with Kenya on Kenya's terms only which is why it failed in 1993 and just won't happen now.  It is how Kenya seem to handle any conflicts with anyone.  She basically acts the victim, expects a major apology and won't let go if she doesn't get it.  So i can see her rendition of events may be a tad bit one sided.

[RCharter]

I just feel that Kenya wants her bio mother to connect with Kenya on Kenya's terms only which is why it failed in 1993 and just won't happen now.  It is how Kenya seem to handle any conflicts with anyone.  She basically acts the victim, expects a major apology and won't let go if she doesn't get it.  So i can see her rendition of events may be a tad bit one sided.

So, a woman who gave birth to Kenya and ignored her for 20+ years when Kenya was begging for even a crumb of affection comes sniffing around after Kenya wins Miss USA and Kenya doesn't even have the right to ask for an apology for the years and years of pain Patricia has put her through?  These are such absolutely unreasonable terms?  After years of hurting a child who had no part in the situation, she isn't even allowed to ask for an apology?  And Patricia couldn't just say "hey listen, I'm sorry for ignoring you for 20+ years."  Because this is somehow all part of Kenya "acting the victim" even though she WAS the victim.

 

Again, we expect someone who had to suffer rejection for years to just "get over it" and not show any signs of hurt or pain.  But the lady who made all the decisions shouldn't even be expected to cough up a simple apology for hurting an innocent child?

 

Yes, how dare Kenya ask for an apology from someone who spent years acting like she never even existed and looked straight through her.  How dare she even think to ask for an apology for being treated like less than dirt, for a situation she had no part in creating, but one that caused her immeasurable pain. 

 

Wow.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

[LIMOM]

Lord, Phae still has not paid that man?  I think Phaedra realized that whether or not it was for Apollo, the work out videos were a bust.  In other words, she is punishing Todd for her bad idea.  This is a very shady way for an attorney to act and does not reflect well on her professionally or personally.

 

Dang it, Phae, enjoy your pretty babies, pay Todd, and move on.

Phaedra also mentioned something with the way her shirt read on the screen.

She is not satisfied with the finished product but she still has to pay the man, IMO.

[howivesforever]

I just feel that Kenya wants her bio mother to connect with Kenya on Kenya's terms only which is why it failed in 1993 and just won't happen now. It is how Kenya seem to handle any conflicts with anyone. She basically acts the victim, expects a major apology and won't let go if she doesn't get it. So i can see her rendition of events may be a tad bit one sided.

So it's Kenya's fault. I can't get behind this logic. From even Aunt Lori's mouth Patricia saw her child at family events and acted as if Kenya wasn't there, but once she won a crown the mother comes calling. I don't see anything wrong with Kenya asking for an apology. What I do see is a very cruel woman in Patricia who simply won't give her one so Kenya can get some sort of closure. Patricia is not the victim in this situation. The only person I will reserve my compassion for is Kenya because she was an innocent child.

[RCharter]

So it's Kenya's fault. I can't get behind this logic. From even Aunt Lori's mouth Patricia saw her child at family events and acted as if Kenya wasn't there, but once she won a crown the mother comes calling. I don't see anything wrong with Kenya asking for an apology. What I do see is a very cruel woman in Patricia who simply won't give her one so Kenya can get some sort of closure. Patricia is not the victim in this situation. The only person I will reserve my compassion for is Kenya because she was an innocent child.

Exactly.

[Aging Goth]

So it's Kenya's fault. I can't get behind this logic. From even Aunt Lori's mouth Patricia saw her child at family events and acted as if Kenya wasn't there, but once she won a crown the mother comes calling. I don't see anything wrong with Kenya asking for an apology. What I do see is a very cruel woman in Patricia who simply won't give her one so Kenya can get some sort of closure. Patricia is not the victim in this situation. The only person I will reserve my compassion for is Kenya because she was an innocent child.

Not saying it is anyone's fault.  Just remarking that we really don't know the whole story and only hearing one side.  My observations are based on what I have seen of her on TV thus far and what she said herself in 1993 when her mother contacted her.  I have nothing else to base it on.  Sorry but based on Kenya's tract record, I just don't really take anything she says blindly.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Aging Goth

[freeradical]

I just feel that Kenya wants her bio mother to connect with Kenya on Kenya's terms only which is why it failed in 1993 and just won't happen now. It is how Kenya seem to handle any conflicts with anyone. She basically acts the victim, expects a major apology and won't let go if she doesn't get it. So i can see her rendition of events may be a tad bit one sided.

I just want to say I have really enjoyed your input on this topic Aging Goth. This is such a difficult topic and you have great perspective regarding both sides.

[Yours Truly]

Women's liberation is about equality. It is ridiculous and sometimes vengeful by employers to ignore the fact that the two sexes are not equal when it comes to biological facts of reproduction. Just because women choose to work doesn't mean we deserve to "drop it in the field", throw it on our back and get back to work as some sort of "Isn't this what you wanted?" punishment.

 

THIS! And it's a shame that even women buy into this. I was in the Marine Corps and I used to get disgusted with the women who DEMANDED we be twice as better as the men cause we have to PROVE something. I don't believe in hurting oneself and being delusion about biological realities or ignoring one's personal health just cause there is this ridiculous sentiment that women need to prove a GOD DAMN THING. Reality is reality, health is health and bringing a baby into this world deserves it's proper respect and consideration! Political agenda be damned!

[ParkCirclegirl]

Try as I might, I cannot make out what is printed on the reunion tee shirts...Kenya's something or other...seemed a little narcissistic to me that Kenya would have her name in large type on what was supposed to be a family reunion.

 

My thought on Patricia not wanting to answer the door was she simply did not want to be ambushed and filmed for the show, Kenya may have seemed less than genuine on her part and maybe Patricia would have been more receptive without a bus full of onlookers and film crew.  Kenya probably cannot fathom why anyone would not want to be on TV.

 

Joyce is a horrible actress and Phaedra couldn't fool us either.  I really can't wait for the baby shower if Phaedra has anything to do with it, lol.  I do think if Joyce was planning it alone the ubiquitous red Solo cups would make an appearance.

 

Porsha and her demands, full hair and make up workouts and boobs can have a seat. I think she needs every man in the room to pay attention to her and if they don't she points out her boobs to make sure that they notice her.   If Porsha does not pay her sister a salary how does she pay rent on that  echo chamber her sister calls home?  No personal effects except food in the fridge.  Really Porsha, never had a caramel apple before?  How could she get on a plane with her sister and not have her fly first class with her? Especially now that she is pregnant.  If the shoe was on the other foot Porsha and she was pregnant she would demand to fly private.

[howivesforever]

Not saying it is anyone's fault. Just remarking that we really don't know the whole story and only hearing one side. My observations are based on what I have seen of her on TV thus far and what she said herself in 1993 when her mother contacted her. I have nothing else to base it on. Sorry but based on Kenya's tract record, I just don't really take anything she says blindly.

But we do know a lot. Kenya's mother didn't want her. Had nothing to do with her until she won Miss USA. Kenya has tried to reach out to her for years and has been rejected at every turn. We know Kenya was the victim in this situation. We know Patricia is a social worker whose job is to help children, but she couldn't be bothered to help her own child find closure. It's mind boggling to me that Patricia is essentially given more compassion than Kenya (the victim) in this situation.

[Bluethcs24]

I wonder if people would be attempting all these mental acrobatics if it was Ronald that had behaved the way Patricia did.

My aunt was an unwed teen mom in the south in the mid 70s. She had to go to an alternative high school to finish her schooling. But she kept her baby and raised him. I don't know what it was like in Detroit, but she was able to manage (albeit struggle) in Texas.

[sunsheyen]

I think the themes this season is mixing business with personal - and - family. Seems like each cast member has had some issue or feeling about both.

Unpopular opinion alert- I got the vibe Leon gave Cyn that shit advice about sticking things out with Peter and making it work was because he didn't want to be her rebound. He sounded like he was acting in that conversation. Or. Maybe he thinks deep down Cyn and Pete can't afford a divorce.

I thought he gave it because he knows Peter is a POS but won't be caught dead being the one saying "leave him" on tv, so he issued the diplomatic, give it a college try answer. Maybe there is something to your rebound thing. I definitely agree that he was being very calculated/acting in his answer. 

 

 

If my mother would not even say hi to me when she saw me growing up as a child, but all of a sudden wanted to congratulate me on my Miss U.S.A win, I too would be highly suspicious. 

 

I also need to interrupt the board's highly intelligent discussion of maternity leave to say something shallow and stupid.  I have always thought Lauren was quite pretty.  To me, she looks a little like Tatiana Ali, ( the younger daughter on the Fresh Prince).  She also seem more articulate then Porsha.  I have always wondered if it was like Porsha was the center of attention and Lauren was always on the sidelines ( I know they had different mothers)?  However, to be fair, it does seem like Lauren is benefiting from Porsha's fame, but it is an interesting relationship.

I always figured Lauren's mom was just smarter than Porsha's. 

[RCharter]

The same thing applies in my opinion.  If Ronald wasn't mentally able to handle a child at that age, the very same variables would be in place, but this is my opinion only.  However, it is unfortunate that society actually allows a man to just walk away if he just cannot handle parenthood but will frown upon and even villainize a girl with the same issues.

I would vilify anyone who saw a child they helped make at family events and treated her like she didn't even exist for 20+ years.  And in this very situations, it was Ron who put on his big boy pants and at least acknowledged Kenya's existence.  And, I don't think anyone is making a villain of Patricia for giving Kenya up, or for not feeling motherly but rather for going to events where Kenya was and refusing to even acknowledge that she existed and couldn't even be bothered with a polite hello that you would give to a stranger (at least not until Kenya won Miss USA).  I don't think a single person has said that Patricia should have been forced to keep Kenya, but no matter how many demons you're dancing with there is no reason not to at least sit down and have a conversation in 20+ years, or acknowledge your own child's existence.  

 

Because sometimes you should do the right thing, in spite of the demons, not look to them as an excuse to make an innocent child feel like shit.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

[After7Only]

Phaedra also mentioned something with the way her shirt read on the screen.

She is not satisfied with the finished product but she still has to pay the man, IMO.

 

Last week when Todd was pulling out receipts, they showed an unaired scene where Phaedra was watching a draft of video shortly after it was filmed, and said she liked it.  She didn't say (or they didn't show) anything about her being unhappy with her shirt, or anything else for the video.   Phaedra is just making up reasons not to pay at this point, and I don't get why.  Is she really being that petty about Todd's/Apollo's friendship?  It's like everything she says about Todd (scrounging for .money is couch cushions, desperate for $, etc) is stuff she really wants to say about Apollo.    

Edited January 12, 2016 by After7Only

[Watermelon]

Because it would simply help heal Kenya.

And Kenya unlike you, knew her bio mom.

Therefore, could ask an apology for ignoring her all these years for example.

It's illogical to me, to assume the person who abandoned you while staring in your face for years would apologize to you. I don't think they'll ever talk again but if Patricia was willing to speak to her, Kenya would have been better off doing so and seeing IF she would apologize instead of demanding one.  Also, I fully doubt anything Patricia said would actually help Kenya heal. 

 

But I'm the type of person that thinks all demanded apologies are useless, and most often false.  

[LIMOM]

Last week when Todd was pulling out receipts, they showed an unaired scene where Phaedra was watching a draft of video shortly after it was filmed, and said she liked it.  She didn't say (or they didn't show) anything about her being unhappy with her shirt, or anything else for the video.   Phaedra is just making up reasons not to pay at this point, and I don't get why.  Is she really being that petty about Todd's/Apollo's friendship?  It's like everything she says about Todd (scrounging for .money is couch cushions, desperate for $, etc) is stuff she really wants to say about Apollo.

Are you sure?

I recall when they were in the editing room, she asked the engineer why her shirt looked distorted on the screen?

I might be mixed up as I watch so much crappy TV lately.....

Phaedra is being pity, IMO.

[Watermelon]

Try as I might, I cannot make out what is printed on the reunion tee shirts...Kenya's something or other...seemed a little narcissistic to me that Kenya would have her name in large type on what was supposed to be a family reunion.

 

I'm pretty sure it's blurred out after the "Kenya's".

[LIMOM]

It's illogical to me, to assume the person who abandoned you while staring in your face for years would apologize to you. I don't think they'll ever talk again but if Patricia was willing to speak to her, Kenya would have been better off doing so and seeing IF she would apologize instead of demanding one.  Also, I fully doubt anything Patricia said would actually help Kenya heal. 

 

But I'm the type of person that thinks all demanded apologies are useless, and most often false.

There is no right or wrong,IMO.

This is the way I see the situation and you see it otherwise. :-)

Logic has never been my forte anyways.....

[Bluethcs24]

The same thing applies in my opinion. If Ronald wasn't mentally able to handle a child at that age, the very same variables would be in place, but this is my opinion only. However, it is unfortunate that society actually allows a man to just walk away if he just cannot handle parenthood but will frown upon and even villainize a girl with the same issues.

There are plenty of men, past and present, that wish to escape responsibility of their children because they weren't ready, felt trapped, never wanted kids, etc. In my experience, those men aren't allowed to walk away without at least financially supporting a child and society (deservedly imo) looks down upon them. They are called deadbeat dads and Kenyas mother is the same, a deadbeat mom.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Bluethcs24

[ZaldamoWilder]

I would vilify anyone who saw a child they helped make at family events and treated her like she didn't even exist for 20+ years.  And in this very situations, it was Ron who put on his big boy pants and at least acknowledged Kenya's existence.  And, I don't think anyone is making a villain of Patricia for giving Kenya up, or for not feeling motherly but rather for going to events where Kenya was and refusing to even acknowledge that she existed and couldn't even be bothered with a polite hello that you would give to a stranger (at least not until Kenya won Miss USA).  I don't think a single person has said that Patricia should have been forced to keep Kenya, but no matter how many demons you're dancing with there is no reason not to at least sit down and have a conversation in 20+ years, or acknowledge your own child's existence. 

 

This.  I don't think there's anybody here who can't see Patricia as a traumatized, basically still a baby, girl in a situation with no emotional support and based on her decision, the potential to lose the only family she had.  That's a scenario beyond many of our experiences and expectations.   It seems like we get that.   However, I, lemme speak for myself, I really do struggle to understand what has since happened to the adult living with those consequences.   It's entirely plausible that she remained emotionally traumatized, stunted even.  But, this is where it gets inhumane.  Yours, you mentioned understanding if this were hurt that had been imposed intentionally.  Girl please allow me to use you as representative of opposition for the following lol: 

 

Whatever happened to her at 15 and the decisions that resulted.   I can absolutely see that as being unintentional, the child was still 10 years from full development of her frontal lobes.  Kid actions, grown consequences, got it.

 

What has happened since.  Not at all.   Because one of the things that Patricia consciously decides to do is attend events where she knows the child she. doesn't. want. to. see. will be.  Repeatedly.  <- Ya'll, huh?   That is an act of intention.  Another of the things she does is acknowledge every other human being in attendance at these events, except for that child.  That is an act of intention.  Another thing she does - rather she does not deny doing - is stating that the door to communication will always be opened.  Upon Kenya's last attempt at that communication, this woman literally locked that door.  An act of intention.   These are all things I can and do hold her exclusively responsible for because alienation of affection is a thing.  It's a living breathing passive aggressive way to demonstrate to the highest pissivity that you don't give a flying fuck and dammit it's very effective.  Each of these things from a woman who acquired the skill set then sought a profession to help children.   If ya'll can find a way to make grown Patricia sound like less of an asshole, I promise I'm here for it.

 

I'd like to borrow a tactic from spending the last month on facebook arguing about Cosby - one question if I may - why does she keep going places she knows Kenya will be if she wants to avoid her?  (corroborated by Lori and Dad). 

 

p.s.  Roe v. Wade did occur during the 70s, it was decided in '73.  

 

p.p.s. The only lawyers that work on contingency are ones who are in big payout fields:  labor, personal injury, discrimination, etc. (the kind who would advertise on tv).  Phaedra's an entertainment attorney so, yes, in fact, she would expect to be paid upon rendering her services.

[Watermelon]

There is no right or wrong,IMO.

This is the way I see the situation and you see it otherwise. :-)

Logic has never been my forte anyways.....

Agreed.

But what I mean is, Patricia has done nothing to indicate ever that she was sorry.  So Kenya demanding an apology way back when was a fool's mission.

 

I do wonder what happened that Patricia reached out apparently that one and only time, though.  Kenya got a lot of fame out of Miss USA, but if it was just fame, why didn't Patricia reach out when she was in movies, or the first season of RHOA. I wonder why Miss USA was seemingly the only time she broke her silence.

 

ETA: I also want to know about these supposed Moore family events Kenya was at...I was under the impression only Lori acknowledged lil Kenya.  And Kenya never lived with them, so who was dropping Kenya off a Lori's house knowing Patricia was there and ignoring her? Who kept letting that happen????    Poor Kenya's family was filled with various levels of trash, poor girl.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Watermelon

[howivesforever]

Agreed.

But what I mean is, Patricia has done nothing to indicate ever that she was sorry. So Kenya demanding an apology way back when was a fool's mission.

I do wonder what happened that Patricia reached out apparently that one and only time, though. Kenya got a lot of fame out of Miss USA, but if it was just fame, why didn't Patricia reach out when she was in movies, or the first season of RHOA. I wonder why Miss USA was seemingly the only time she broke her silence.

The simple reason to me is that was the 1st time Kenya was seen on a national level. Had Kenya been willing to engage with her at that point she would have ridden her coat tails. Kenya had the insight to see that she'd reached out to this woman time and time again being rejected and she only reached out when Kenya became Miss USA. Nothing was wrong with Kenya at that point saying I want to engage with you but I need an apology to move forward. Had her mom really cared about Kenya the person it should have been very easy to do.

[Ubiquitous]

Porsha didn't make the remark.  Lauren did.

I thought Lauren brought the flowers to Porsha, who then dismissed them as "grocery store flowers" in a nasty tone.

 

I'm pretty sure it's blurred out after the "Kenya's".

I thought it said something like "Kenya's Family Reunion 2015", which seemed like an odd thing to put on a family reunion shirt.

 

ETA:

Was it my imagination, or did we get a brief shot from inside the house of Kenya knocking at her bio-mom's front door?

Edited January 12, 2016 by Ubiquitous

[kassa]

We have no idea of knowing if there was an aunt to go live with.

 

 

You know how on Jersey Housewives they refer to going to prison as "going away for a while"?  Back in the day, going to "stay with an aunt" was a metaphor/excuse for going to an unwed mother's home out of state, where the baby would be given up for adoption.  Unless you actually had family (maybe with a different last name and no close connection to people who knew you back home) you could go stay with.  But unless the baby was going to be adopted within the family/through family connections, people would just as likely tell nobody.

 

It was such a common excuse that if you really DID want to go visit an aunt somewhere you probably wouldn't have worded it that way because people would be examining your waist line.  

 

I sympathize with Kenya and feel for her.  On some level I actually like her, even though she makes me crazy.  I enjoy watching her brain work (quickly and cynically, as opposed to watching Porsha's work verrrrrrry sloooooowly.)  But because of that, I have to say I raised an eyebrow this entire episode.  I think she's already over her mother (not emotionally, obviously that's a lifelong scar).  But I think she decided this year that her mother had to put up or deal with the consequences of it being a storyline. 

 

Mom wouldn't play ball, and Kenya brought the game to her.  A family reunion in a relative's house (when she could have booked a hall/park and otherwise done it up right).  T shirts that list both family names even though I'm guessing only 5 people were invited from Mom's side and she didn't count on any of them except Lori.  

 

And of course the stop at the house, camera in tow.  She wasn't breaking down in heartbreak to connect with her mom.  She was serving notice that "guess what, Mom, I'm out here with a camera crew and I know you're going to deny me and guess how that will look."  

 

Her storyline this season is healing her heart, and she launched it by the (non) confrontation.  If she truly wanted to pin her mother down, she could have sat by herself in a rented Taurus down the street and accosted her at the mailbox, or followed her to work.  There are ways of making somebody see you that are better than expecting them to answer the door when they haven't spoken to you in 40 years.

 

Kenya's a smart cookie -- again, I don't doubt her pain, and I believe the emotions we see with Lori over this -- but the reunion/door knocking scenes to me were just payback.  

[RCharter]

If I had a dime for every time I choked out an apology even when I didn't want to, when I was upset, or "emotionally injured" I would at least have enough for a pair of new shoes.  A person can learn to form the words of an apology for their own bad behavior after 20+ years, and if thats something that someone is absolutely incapable of doing than they aren't likely capable of living in the adult world.  Or having an adult job.  You don't have to be a healthy adult to force yourself to do the decent thing.

[Iguessnot]

Are you sure?

I recall when they were in the editing room, she asked the engineer why her shirt looked distorted on the screen?

I might be mixed up as I watch so much crappy TV lately.....

Phaedra is being pity, IMO.

Yes, she asked about why the dots looked like that and he told her it was only because they were viewing at half the resolution, meaning the final product would look okay. Anyway it was the Bravo magic that paired her talking head saying she wasn't pleased with the video with this particular clip. However we don't know why she was unhappy with the video. I could be that Apollo is prominently featured throughout the video. Maybe the tone of the video was very family centered, thus causing nothing but embarrassment should it be released now.

[Iguessnot]

I thought Lauren brought the flowers to Porsha, who then dismissed them as "grocery store flowers" in a nasty tone.

 

I thought it said something like "Kenya's Family Reunion 2015", which seemed like an odd thing to put on a family reunion shirt.

 

ETA:

Was it my imagination, or did we get a brief shot from inside the house of Kenya knocking at her bio-mom's front door?

When Lauren received the flowers she called them grocery store flowers. Porsha then responded that she liked grocery store flowers.

[RCharter]

 

And of course the stop at the house, camera in tow.  She wasn't breaking down in heartbreak to connect with her mom.  She was serving notice that "guess what, Mom, I'm out here with a camera crew and I know you're going to deny me and guess how that will look."  

 

Her storyline this season is healing her heart, and she launched it by the (non) confrontation.  If she truly wanted to pin her mother down, she could have sat by herself in a rented Taurus down the street and accosted her at the mailbox, or followed her to work.  There are ways of making somebody see you that are better than expecting them to answer the door when they haven't spoken to you in 40 years.

 

Kenya's a smart cookie -- again, I don't doubt her pain, and I believe the emotions we see with Lori over this -- but the reunion/door knocking scenes to me were just payback.  

I feel like the camera crew was a way for Kenya to try to strong arm her mother.  She had tried to approach her mother with no camera crew when she was right in her face and the woman would act like she didn't exist.  I guess she was hoping that Patricia would realize how bad her behavior would look on camera and would capitulate.  Its sad when you have to go to a last ditch effort just to get the woman to open the door.  Maybe she should have sent Brandon to the door and hid behind him like a jack-in-the-box.  I suspect if Kenya had gone on her own and just waited outside Patricia would do what she had done before, looked straight though Kenya, gone inside, locked the door and waited until she left.  Or better yet, called the cops, because...you know, Patricia can't be bothered.

[drivethroo]

I don't think that Patricia is evil.

 

I'm wondering if Patricia's father was a preacher, super religious or just really strict? I know there was a guy in my hometown who was the preacher's son.  He got his teen girlfriend pregnant.  His daddy preached the "it's shameful to bring home illegal babies" spiel so instead of bringing shame to his father and church by acknowledging he got the girl pregnant, he took the girl for a walk in the woods, killed her and burned her corpse.  Took all her ID so nobody could identify her but was dumb and didn't take her class ring off, which was inscribed with her name.

 

The point I'm making is this guy couldn't acknowledge he knocked the girl up and stay in his daddy's good graces so he killed her to cover up his mistake and stay good in his daddy's graces (of course that only brought more shame).  Patricia did the same thing; she had to pretend Kenya didn't exist so she could stay in her family's good graces. 

 

They told a CHILD that either she rejects her child or her parents will reject HER.  If that's how Patricia's family was set up, where she either toes the line or she will be faced with rejection and loss of family love, then it's no wonder she sought a little bit of love and affection from Ronald Grant.  And if opening up her heart & seeking some affection means losing the love of her family, then she's simply not going to do it again.  Especially not to the thing (fetus) that could make her lose her place in her family.

 

Patricia Moore never married or had any other kids.  You see Lori got to stepping and left Detroit.

 

Patricia DID acknowledge that Kenya existed when she called her up when she won Miss USA.  NOT:

 

• when she graduated from high school
• when she graduated from college
• when she started modeling in Chicago area magazines
• when she won Miss Michigan

 

No, she didn't acknowledge Kenya's existence until she won Miss USA and was a national big deal.  I don't know about you, but I'm not going to be happy if I've been trying to get my parent to notice me and they don't until I become a big deal.  It would be like if Obama's dad had not died (when he was 21), and didn't contact him or have anything to do with him when he graduated high school, or college, or law school or got married or had kids or won the Senate seat, but come ringing his phone on Nov 4, 2008 talking about some "Hey son, howya doin'? Congratulations!"

 

C'mon, son.

 

Kenya is not out of line for demanding an apology from Patricia before they can sit down and talk.  Popping up when your kid is on top is grimy.  If you're not popping up trying to know me on a regular day don't be popping up trying to know me when I hit it big.  No new friends, indeed.

 

However,  Patricia is not out of line for not wanting a relationship with Kenya as an adult.  People don't have to talk to you if they don't want to.  Patricia reached out & got a taste of rejection.  She didn't like it and so she decided she wasn't going to put herself back out there again.

 

I think Kenya should respect that and leave Patricia alone.  That doesn't mean that Kenya is not justified in how she feels and that she has no right to feel how she feels.  Kenya doesn't need to turn off her feelings and let it go to make everyone else (including the viewers) feel comfortable.

Edited January 12, 2016 by drivethroo

[Yours Truly]

This.  I don't think there's anybody here who can't see Patricia as a traumatized, basically still a baby, girl in a situation with no emotional support and based on her decision, the potential to lose the only family she had.  That's a scenario beyond many of our experiences and expectations.   It seems like we get that.   However, I, lemme speak for myself, I really do struggle to understand what has since happened to the adult living with those consequences.   It's entirely plausible that she remained emotionally traumatized, stunted even.  But, this is where it gets inhumane.  Yours, you mentioned understanding if this were hurt that had been imposed intentionally.  Girl please allow me to use you as representative of opposition for the following lol: 

 

Whatever happened to her at 15 and the decisions that resulted.   I can absolutely see that as being unintentional, the child was still 10 years from full development of her frontal lobes.  Kid actions, grown consequences, got it.

 

What has happened since.  Not at all.   Because one of the things that Patricia consciously decides to do is attend events where she knows the child she. doesn't. want. to. see. will be.  Repeatedly.  <- Ya'll, huh?   That is an act of intention.  Another of the things she does is acknowledge every other human being in attendance at these events, except for that child.  That is an act of intention.  Another thing she does - rather she does not deny doing - is stating that the door to communication will always be opened.  Upon Kenya's last attempt at that communication, this woman literally locked that door.  An act of intention.   These are all things I can and do hold her exclusively responsible for because alienation of affection is a thing.  It's a living breathing passive aggressive way to demonstrate to the highest pissivity that you don't give a flying fuck and dammit it's very effective.  Each of these things from a woman who acquired the skill set then sought a profession to help children.   If ya'll can find a way to make grown Patricia sound like less of an asshole, I promise I'm here for it.

 

I'd like to borrow a tactic from spending the last month on facebook arguing about Cosby - one question if I may - why does she keep going places she knows Kenya will be if she wants to avoid her?  (corroborated by Lori and Dad). 

 

p.s.  Roe v. Wade did occur during the 70s, it was decided in '73.  

 

p.p.s. The only lawyers that work on contingency are ones who are in big payout fields:  labor, personal injury, discrimination, etc. (the kind who would advertise on tv).  Phaedra's an entertainment attorney so, yes, in fact, she would expect to be paid upon rendering her services.

Why me...??? ;-)

 

I totally get the criticism of her actions as an adult as seemingly intentional but that's assuming she's making these decisions based off of a healthy mindset. With this particular part of her life I do not believe she can make the kind of sound decisions that she can make when she's, lets say, performing basic functions at her job or living her basic day to day. We use our experiences, or views and perspectives in order to make decisions and in Patricia's case her history, her emotions, the consequences she has to reflect on are what she uses when faced with her situation with Kenya. They are still those of a an unhealthy child, in an unhealthy situation, with traumatic outcomes. A scar heals back with thicker and tougher skin in order to protect the already damaged area. After years the initial injury is technically healed but that portion of the skin is still thicker, still protecting in the same way from when it was first needed. Maybe a bit faded, not as thick but still there and not the same as the rest of the skin. Point being in other aspects of her day to day life she draws on basic functions ,sympathy, caring and consideration much like the unaffected skin surrounding the scarred skin can still function as it's intended to but get to that scar tissue and it's compromised. Sometimes hair doesn't grow on scar tissue, scar becomes tainted or the pigment is changed, some skin scars rather thick and unsightly. What I hope to explain with this is that one can't expect the scarred skin to function in the same capacity as the unharmed skin surrounding it. It's forever changed.

 

I totally understand the sentiment that Patricia should be doing SOMETHING to ease Kenya's hurt. My stance is that I understand why she would be incapable and why in all actuality it shouldn't be a surprise. It's heartbreaking for sure but I get it. I'm also not inclined to believe 100% that Kenya's accounts really paint an accurate picture. Not saying this as a dig at Kenya but because of her own pain she's not inclined to share the experience in the best possible light or recount the situations in an unbiased way which is understandable.

 

Hope that clarified my position a bit more. :-)

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

RHOA Shakes, Prunes, And Ties Itself To Family Trees
This week it's all in the family, and better because of it.

[Yours Truly]

If I had a dime for every time I choked out an apology even when I didn't want to, when I was upset, or "emotionally injured" I would at least have enough for a pair of new shoes.  A person can learn to form the words of an apology for their own bad behavior after 20+ years, and if thats something that someone is absolutely incapable of doing than they aren't likely capable of living in the adult world.  Or having an adult job.  You don't have to be a healthy adult to force yourself to do the decent thing.

Well some people do need to be and there are opinions that understand that sentiment. That's why I refer to the terms "black and white" and "cut and dry" as absolutes that are just too rigid to force into existence by sheer will. Disappointments are unavoidable and collateral damage a sad reality.

[Midnight Cheese]

I don't judge Patricia's choices as a 15 year old. I'm judging her by who she is now. And I think she's a selfish and cruel human being- to put it mildly.

 

To attend functions that your own child is at and show no interest is completely baffling. She should've sat her ass at home if she couldn't be civil. If Kenya were (God forbid) to be hit by a bus tomorrow would Patricia attend the funeral? Would she be relieved or regret the decisions she's made up to this point?

 

It baffles me that a woman with so little empathy for her own "daughter" chose to go into social work. I don't get it, and I never will. It makes me grateful that I have a mother who cares about me.

 

Re: Phaedra/Todd, I thought Kandi posted on Twitter that Todd had still not been paid(?)

 

Patricia is a sack of shit.  Were she male, with her profession after this sketch-ass behavior (getting in touch once Kenya was doing well in pageants), you know what we'd call him?  Justin Bieber Daddy (TM Nene Leakes).  She's a rotten person and I'm going to sleep the sleep of a thousand innocent babies typing that.

[BogoGog24]

I think somehow this whole thing got really convoluted. I don't think anyone or most people here are shaming Patricia for what she did at 15, both getting pregnant as well as giving Kenya up. Her family at that time should have helped her decide what was the right course of action because no one can expect a 15 year old to be able to see that far into the future. Her family, IMO, made the wrong decision by choosing to keep Kenya in the family instead of giving her away to a completely different, unrelated family. If it was Patricia's wish to never see Kenya again or have any relationship with her, there was no chance of that happening if the baby was kept within the same family. IMO the rest of her family really screwed that whole thing up.

 

However, what people ARE up in arms about is the way adult Patricia is acting in 2015/2016. She's a grown ass adult now. No one's saying she has to have tea with Kenya and they need to have this amazing mother-daughter relationship. No one is saying Patricia doesn't have just as many demons and as much pain as Kenya does. But according to Kenya, her mother doesn't even acknowledge her when they are at family functions together, she locks the door in her face, the only time apparently she said anything to her was when she started to gain a bit of fame. That's just not right. I think all Kenya probably wants is to hear the words "You're my daughter" and she'd probably be satisfied and never care to speak with her again. I understand that years and years ago Patricia's family probably told her to act like the whole thing never happened and that by not acknowledging Kenya's existence, it's like she doesn't exist and she doesn't have to open up any old wounds. But sadly I think she plans to take this to her grave and that's just not healthy. At some point you gotta deal with these things. She'd probably feel so much better if she just faced the issue and opened the wound so it can heal, instead of carrying it with her all these years and sweeping everything under the rug. 

 

The whole conversation about what 15 year olds did in the south in the '70s is irrelevant. Nobody cares what Patricia did back THEN, we're concerned about the way she, as a grown adult, is treating her grown adult daughter NOW. They don't have to hug, they don't have to have some deep conversation... I think all Kenya wants is for her mother to acknowledge she exists instead of ignoring her and shutting the door in her face. I think that's hardly asking a lot. Patricia has the right to not want a relationship with Kenya, because that probably would be asking a lot, but I don't think it's that unreasonable for her to be a decent human being and say "Hello, how are you?" on the few occasions they're in the same room together. She treats her own daughter worse than a stranger and that's what most people here have an issue with. It's just not right and making excuses for what she did as a 15 year old is irrelevant when she's not longer 15.

[RCharter]

Well some people do need to be and there are opinions that understand that sentiment. That's why I refer to the terms "black and white" and "cut and dry" as absolutes that are just too rigid to force into existence by sheer will. Disappointments are unavoidable and collateral damage a sad reality.

No, actually you just need to be able to speak in order to apologize.  Thats it, this is why people don't need to "feel" an apology and can apologize in spite of "emotional scarring."  So Patricia can apologize even though she isn't a healthy adult.  She just chooses to not apologize, after 20+ years of ignoring a child who did nothing wrong.  Even if she didn't "feel" the apology, she could have choked one out, written it down and mailed it in a letter, emailed it, put it on a sticky note and left it on a door, hired a skywriter.

 

And sometimes things are black and white, and right and a wrong.  When you always encourage people to "live in the grey" sometimes you just give them a pass to not be held accountable for their bad behavior.  You can feel the way you feel, but your actions still matter.  And the act of shunning a child for 20+ years and not being able to even say "I'm sorry" is just wrong.

Edited January 12, 2016 by RCharter

[freeradical]

I know we're not hearing the whole story. Just bits and pieces from a damaged person and her Dad (he is cloudy at best) and I do wonder if this confused mess would make much more sense knowing more.

-In all these years of resentment did Kenya possibly behave in a hostile way toward her mother at some point either in person or by mail. Or whatever? I have a hard time believing there was never a good, solid attempt at some negative attention from her mom. It would be a normal reaction.

-Patricia could be diagnosed with a mental illness, some of which include lack of empathy and/or an inability to cope with any conflict. You can go to school and be a social worker (a low paying, two years of community college job in my state) and still struggle with mental illness.

Nothing changes the fact that it's incredibly sad but we will never hear the story from an unbiased perspective to get facts instead of emotion based recollections and family dynamics are often too complicated to put in words.

Edited January 12, 2016 by freeradical

[After7Only]

Are you sure?

I recall when they were in the editing room, she asked the engineer why her shirt looked distorted on the screen?

I might be mixed up as I watch so much crappy TV lately.....

Phaedra is being pity, IMO.

 

Yes, in the episode prior to that where Tod went to Phaedra and with the copies of the cancelled checks, she says something along the lines, of she didn't pay because she hadn't seen the finished product.  Bravo then showed an unaired clip of her watching the video way back when and saying it looked good.    In the most recent episode is where she commented on her shirt looking distorted.  

 

I'm thinking she's not releasing the video because it was co-produced with Apollo, and therefore any profits would be subject to government seizure.  If they're going after motorcycles in Kandi's garage, they'd definitely take 1/2 of the pregnancy video.    

[Lisin]

Hi guys. Some posts have gone poof. Take the tone down about 15 notches. Nobody here has any control of how these women are portrayed. Be mad at Bravo or the housewives themselves, but stop attacking or going after each other for having opinions about it.

[swankie]

At the end of the day Patricia made all the choices, and Kenya made none of them.

 

 

Somehow, I get the feeling that Patricia didn't make very many of the choices either.  I get the feeling that the adults she lived with made them for her.  This is just my way of trying to think of what I would have done if I was 15 and in that situation.  I probably would have done everything my mother and father told me to do because I would have been scared to death, and if it meant giving up my baby in order to stay in their good graces, I might have done just that.  Before I get judged, this is just me thinking like the very immature 15 year old that I was and putting myself in Patricia's shoes.

Edited January 13, 2016 by swankie

[wanderingstar]

Did I see her passing out family reunion tshirts labeled "Kenya's Family Reunion"? How tacky.

While watching this ep, I was starting to think to myself, "Wow, I haven't been annoyed by Kenya for like 2 episodes in a row." Then, I saw those t-shirts. *smh*

Edited January 13, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[howivesforever]

Somehow, I get the feeling that Patricia didn't make very many of the choices either. I get the feeling that the adults she lived with made them for her. This is just my way of trying to think of what I would have done if I was 15 and in that situation. I probably would have done everything my mother and father told me to do because I would have been scared to death, and if it meant giving up my baby in order to stay in their good graces, I might have done just that. Before I get judged, this is just me thinking like the very immature 15 year old that I was and putting myself in Patricia's shoes.

You are absolutely right about Patricia at 15, but I think the problem is now Patricia is a grown woman who chose to ignore the child she brought into this world every chance she got except when she won a crown.

[swankie]

It's mind boggling to me that Patricia is essentially given more compassion than Kenya (the victim) in this situation.

 

 

I don't see Patricia getting any compassion; quite the opposite in fact.  I've never seen a character more ostracized than her.  The only other person given worse treatment and comments in this forum is Mama Joyce.  Just because some of us try to see the other side of the equation doesn't mean we're giving her any kind of compassion.  I think the woman is very damaged goods.  Horrible!

[jumper sage]

Kenya - I usually fast forward through anything that has to do with her.  As a Detroiter my opinion of her is the same as my opinion of Mrs. Tankard which is very, very low.  Anywho....Her mother wanted to put her up for adoption, it did not happen.  It may have been better for Kenya if it did.  At some point you need to move on with your life.  My father was a horrible alcoholic.......I just grew up and came to grips with the fact that I can only control myself and not others.  Everyone has some story.  Going to her mother's house with a camera crew was pretty stupid and probably the worst thing she could have done.  Kenya has never struck me as very bright.

 

Porsha - stop, just stop.  You looked like an idiot.  Who makes their sister take a different seat on a plane?  Boy she sure has come a long way from the holier-than-thou person she was.

 

Phaedra - girl, you should market that workout tape as another way to induce labor and make a mint!  Anyone who know of anyone who was over due knows they will buy and do anything to get things moving.

[Watermelon]

I'm curious about Lauren. If Lauren knew she didn't want to be at the office before 10 (the horror), why not change the delivery address to your place? Why are you being useless, while acting like the world is falling on your shoulders? We all know Porsha isn't booking her flights so....Why is Lauren not booking that first class ticket to go along with her sister?  Also, Gold medal in the Passive Aggressive Olympics with that, "I sit in COACH, BUT THAT'S OK! IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT THAT".  If it's not about that, then shut up, girl.

[RCharter]

Somehow, I get the feeling that Patricia didn't make very many of the choices either.  I get the feeling that the adults she lived with made them for her.  This is just my way of trying to think of what I would have done if I was 15 and in that situation.  I probably would have done everything my mother and father told me to do because I would have been scared to death, and if it meant giving up my baby in order to stay in their good graces, I might have done just that.  Before I get judged, this is just me thinking like the very immature 15 year old that I was and putting myself in Patricia's shoes.

But she did have a choice, which is why Ronald's family begged her, and not her family.  If Patricia was powerless in the situation, no one would have bothered begging her for anything and would have skipped straight to the family.  And since her father didn't want any illegitimate children around, I can't imagine that his guidance was to give his daughters illegitimate child to someone who lived fairly close and was related to the child since Ronald's grandmother lived in Detroit, and at the time, so did Ronald.  Its likely her parents wanted her to have the adoption, but she chose to give the child to Ronald's family, since she had the choice.  

 

At the very least, I think he advocated for the closed adoption which would have meant that Kenya would be far, far away, and legally unable to find out who her mother is.  I don't think, given what has been said, that he would have been cool with the baby being raised by the fathers family that was nearby, because than it could sully his family name, which sounds like it was pretty important to him.

 

I also don't think that the court system would have sided with Ronald, and he knew that, which is why he didn't threaten legal action, but resorted to begging Patricia.

 

This only goes to show that its far more likely that Patricia had a large role in making the decision, because it would so clearly go against her father's wishes.

[RCharter]

While watching this ep, I was starting to think to myself, "Wow, I haven't been annoyed by Kenya for like 2 episodes in a row." Then, I saw those t-shirts. *smh*

While I think this could be a monument to Kenya's self-centeredness, it might also make sense in another way.

 

She was planning this family reunion for both sides of her family.  If people from her mother's side wanted to come, she may not have wanted to ruffle Moore feathers by calling it a Grant family reunion.  And knowing that her mothers side might not show up at all, she didn't want to ruffle Grant feathers by calling it the Grant/Moore reunion.  And it might be odd to have something called a "Grant/Moore" reunion given the history between all the parties. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong, Kenya can be self-centered, so it could just be that she wanted everyone wearing tee-shirts with her name on it.  But I'm not sure what I would call the family reunion in her situation.  I might have just given everyone a plain Hanes Beefy-T and let them figure it out for themselves.

[AndySmith]

I might have just given everyone a plain Hanes Beefy-T and let them figure it out for themselves.

 

That could have been a booth at the reunion...design your own family reunion tee-shirt lol

[swankie]

But she did have a choice, which is why Ronald's family begged her, and not her family.  If Patricia was powerless in the situation, no one would have bothered begging her for anything and would have skipped straight to the family.  And since her father didn't want any illegitimate children around, I can't imagine that his guidance was to give his daughters illegitimate child to someone who lived fairly close and was related to the child since Ronald's grandmother lived in Detroit, and at the time, so did Ronald.  Its likely her parents wanted her to have the adoption, but she chose to give the child to Ronald's family, since she had the choice.  

 

At the very least, I think he advocated for the closed adoption which would have meant that Kenya would be far, far away, and legally unable to find out who her mother is.  I don't think, given what has been said, that he would have been cool with the baby being raised by the fathers family that was nearby, because than it could sully his family name, which sounds like it was pretty important to him.

 

I also don't think that the court system would have sided with Ronald, and he knew that, which is why he didn't threaten legal action, but resorted to begging Patricia.

 

This only goes to show that its far more likely that Patricia had a large role in making the decision, because it would so clearly go against her father's wishes.

 

YMMV.  I have a feeling that "Patricia being begged" was probably more like "Patricia being told what she will do". 

Edited January 13, 2016 by swankie

[RCharter]

YMMV.  I have a feeling that "Patricia being begged" was probably more like "Patricia being told what she will do". 

I might understand that interpretation, but I can't see where Ronald's family would "tell Patricia what to do" more than her own family would.