Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

glowbug · August 22, 2016

8 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I find it hard to believe that there was a fan theory regarding Hodor that guessed exactly what happened to him and where his name came from. Hodor = Hold the Door is way too specific.

Hodor = Hold the Door was actually a fan theory prior to the reveal. The exact circumstance (that Bran caused it by going back in the past) was not a theory I'd heard though. I think there were quite a few people who thought that it occurred when Lyanna was abducted by or ran away with Rhaegar.

BlackberryJam · August 22, 2016

On 8/21/2016 at 8:59 AM, fantique said:

The three "big reveals" (I count the origins of the whitewalkers, hodor and RLJ) did not even make me raise an eyebrow. And I have been anticipating Cersei bowing up KL since she burnt the Tower of the Hand so that wasn't a surprise for me. The first two are theories in the fandom and enough said about RLJ so I just thought "oh so they confirmed that theory? Ok".

[snip]

Also in general what kind of things do you expect from fantasy stories, what were twists that really got you previously? I'm curious.

[Qualifying this by saying I have never been impressed with Boiled Leather. His analysis of certain characters is incredibly shallow and his thinking is rigid so he misses so many things.)

I didn't think those were the big reveals at ALL. To me the big reveals were the death of Rickon, which I so thought was going to happen but not how, the Hound whipping out his dick and pissing all over Cleganebowl, literally, and Cersei crowning herself. Also, Jon being declared King in the North was a big reveal.

I don't know. I just think this post picked the most predictable things and named them the "big reveals" while ignoring the actual big reveals. Like Arya making it back to Westeros and going murdery on Walder. Or Doran and Trystane dying and the Sand Snakes surviving. Those were big reveals.

ETA: Oh and Margaery freaking converting to the Faith to get out of prison. No one predicted that one, although someone should have. The elimination of trial by combat, that was a huge thing. Daeny aligning with Asha and Theon. These were the big surprises for me.

Edited August 22, 2016 by BlackberryJam

WearyTraveler · August 22, 2016

12 hours ago, glowbug said:

Hodor = Hold the Door was actually a fan theory prior to the reveal. The exact circumstance (that Bran caused it by going back in the past) was not a theory I'd heard though. I think there were quite a few people who thought that it occurred when Lyanna was abducted by or ran away with Rhaegar.

I can't remember if the books say where the alleged abduction took place, but I don't think it would be Winterfell. How did these theorizers think it happened? I'm curious now :D

21 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

[Qualifying this by saying I have never been impressed with Boiled Leather. His analysis of certain characters is incredibly shallow and his thinking is rigid so he misses so many things.)

I didn't think those were the big reveals at ALL. To me the big reveals were the death of Rickon, which I so thought was going to happen but not how, the Hound whipping out his dick and pissing all over Cleganebowl, literally, and Cersei crowning herself. Also, Jon being declared King in the North was a big reveal.

I don't know. I just think this post picked the most predictable things and named them the "big reveals" while ignoring the actual big reveals. Like Arya making it back to Westeros and going murdery on Walder. Or Doran and Trystane dying and the Sand Snakes surviving. Those were big reveals.

ETA: Oh and Margaery freaking converting to the Faith to get out of prison. No one predicted that one, although someone should have. The elimination of trial by combat, that was a huge thing. Daeny aligning with Asha and Theon. These were the big surprises for me.

Here's where we enter into uncertain ground. If something happens on the show, will it happen in the books? I think the person talking about the three reveals above (Hodor, R+L=J, and the origin of the WW), was presuming these were all reveals that are to be expected in the books, because of the way the story has been told so far.

We know the Hodor story is part of Martin's canon because D&D confirmed George told them that, so, it is very likely it will happen in the books; but I don't think we have ever had even a small hint in the books about Bran being the cause or that Hodor would die holding a door closed to protect Bran. I think the prevalent theory was that Bran would become the new Three Eyed Crow and remain in place, integrating with the tree (in which case, Rickon would have been next in line to inherit WF). Since D&D have said they know where everyone ends up and that major characters will have the same fate in the show as they do in the books, I think it's safe to assume Rickon will die in the books (although the how of it will probably be different) and Bran will get back to WF (or at least to the Wall).

Jon being proclaimed King in the North is not as certain to happen in the books, though. Robb's will could be the instrument that makes this happen, seeing as how in the books everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, and Sansa is in the Vale (and at the pace her story is going, it doesn't look like she will make it North for the battle of WF, let alone to sit as Lady of the House, or to challenge Jon (maybe she will later, under LF's influence and after she's married to Harry the heir). Robb legitimizing Jon and making him his heir while he was King in the North should be enough to render anyone else's claim moot, although they could perpetuate the war trying. But I think if Jon gets to be King in the North in the books, the only thing that will change that status is the reveal of Jon's true parentage, which (if R and L married) would actually make him, the true heir to the Iron Throne. I don't think Jon wants either title in the books, all he wants is a way to defeat the Walkers and actually uphold his vow to be the "shield that guards the realm of men", but, since book Jon is a bit more politically savvy than TV Jon, it might be that he does indeed take the title just so that he can unite the North against the Walkers. In any case, we are not sure if Jon will just decide to lead on his own without any titles, or of he will be named King in the North. I waver on this, because that would put him in open rebellion against the Iron Throne (whoever sits on it) and several of the would be Kings of Westeros didn't like the idea of losing half their kingdom. So, taking that title, would be like declaring war on the IT, when they already have a much scarier enemy North of the Wall. I don't think Jon would want to deal with it that way.

The origin of the Walkers, as I explained in my previous post, is most likely not a book spoiler.

The other reveals you mentioned are surprises, but we can't be sure they will happen in the books. Cersei sitting the IT, Arya personally murdering Frey, Margaery converting... these are all things that could happen, but we are not sure will happen. I think Cersei will burn down KL, and that probably all of the major characters that died in the finale will die in the books (Margaery, Loras, the High Sparrow, Lancel), but I'm not sure about some other things.

Dorne is one area in which I think the show and the books will diverge even more. In the books, Arianne is aligned with Doran and Tristane, and the Sand Snakes are also aligned, while Ellaria wants nothing to d with any of it. If Soran and Tristane die, I doubt it will be at the hands of the Sand Snakes.

Eyes High · August 22, 2016

On 2016-08-21 at 8:59 AM, fantique said:

The three "big reveals" (I count the origins of the whitewalkers, hodor and RLJ) did not even make me raise an eyebrow. And I have been anticipating Cersei bowing up KL since she burnt the Tower of the Hand so that wasn't a surprise for me. The first two are theories in the fandom and enough said about RLJ so I just thought "oh so they confirmed that theory? Ok".

Are they really "reveals"? I think D&D and/or GRRM have stated or at least implied that the origin of the WW is a show-only invention, likely done to streamline things. As for Hodor, while "Hodor" does mean "hold the door," GRRM has said that the circumstances of "Hodor" in ASOIAF are different (although the extent of the difference is not known). As for Cersei blowing up the Sept with wildfire, I thought D&D implied pretty strongly that they made that up for the show; I have no doubt that she'll wind up on top in her scrap with Margaery and the Faith in the books, but it will play out in a different way.

D&D were also careful to avoid any hint in their interviews that Book Coldhands is Benjen. A glimpse of the ADWD manuscript, where GRRM writes a firm "NO" in response to the editor's written note asking whether Coldhands is Benjen, indicates that Coldhands is not Benjen in the books.

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I didn't think those were the big reveals at ALL. To me the big reveals were the death of Rickon, which I so thought was going to happen but not how, the Hound whipping out his dick and pissing all over Cleganebowl, literally, and Cersei crowning herself. Also, Jon being declared King in the North was a big reveal.

I think the only real book spoiler we can take from TV Sandor's storyline is the fact that he lived (which many book readers already believed). I don't know that Cersei will crown herself in the books, only that she will manage to get the better of her enemies in KL and come out on top at least in the short term (which many book readers believed).

As for Jon being named KITN and what looks like a budding conflict between Jon and Sansa in the show, it might point the way to the Northern plot in future books: Robb's will comes into play, Sansa is disinherited and Jon is named KITN. Drama ensues.

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Like Arya making it back to Westeros and going murdery on Walder. Or Doran and Trystane dying and the Sand Snakes surviving. Those were big reveals.

Arya making it back to Westeros is probably a book spoiler. I think Walder Frey is more likely to be a victim of Stoneheart and her crew in the books. As for Trystane, he's a sufficiently minor character that he could die in the show while living in the books. I always thought Doran was doomed, but I do think that his death in the show confirms his death in the books.

fantique · August 22, 2016

15 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I find it hard to believe that there was a fan theory regarding Hodor that guessed exactly what happened to him and where his name came from. Hodor = Hold the Door is way too specific.

The CotF creating the WW I can see being a fan theory, but not Hodor's origin story. Also, I don't think D&D (or anyone else, for that matter) confirmed that the Children creating the Walkers will be book canon. IIRC, D&D said George made three reveals that shocked them: one was Shireen's death, another one was Hodor's origin story and they still haven't revealed the third one. I think something as big as the origins of the WW would qualify, but since it doesn't , I tend to think that D&D invented this development themselves. As a book reader, I think there are larger forces at play here that are way more ancient and primal than the Children creating the Walkers to fight the Andals. At least that's what I'm reading in the subtext, but I could be wrong, off course.

Regarding R+L=J, you'd be surprised at how many book readers were not convinced this was the case. They theorized it was all a red herring and that Jon would remain dead. As @Avaleigh mentioned in the episode thread, the finale was a full on nerdgasm, in the sense that it confirmed a lot of theories that many of us felt were 100% accurate but many didn't. I suppose it's the satisfaction of knowing that you were right, but also, if you had an emotional attachment to any of the characters that survived; for example, Jon, it gives you hope for the character's future in the books.

It's one thing to believe that you are 100% right. it's quite another to have that belief confirmed.

I'm a book reader, so I have been spoiled for most of the series; in addition, I read spoilers, and casting calls, and if an episode leaks before time, I'm there to watch it, so, for me, the "surprises" are few or they come sooner than for an unspoiled viewer. I don't watch to be surprised, frankly. I watch for the emotional beats, the cinematography and to see the story end (since it appears Martin will not finish it any time soon).

As to what I expect from a fantasy story, it's the same as I expect from any other story, a logical plot, a cohesive world, and, the most important thing of all, good characters that I can connect with. I don't even care if the story is clichéd, or a trope. I have read so many books, seen so many movies and watched so much TV, it's very rare when I see a story I haven't seen before in some form or another. But if the characters are good, I'd follow them anywhere.

Well, I don't have any theories I genuinely care enough about to have confirmation or denial really affect me. I was more referring to the fact that the existence of any theory makes it a possibility and therefore can never truly be unexpected since it is a considered option. @glowbug already mentioned the Hodor theory. As for RLJ, I didn't think much of it not being true because (despite some people trying to shove canon bending theories) it is the only option that fits with both the canon limitations and character themes without having to ignore pre-established events and character traits. But that's just my opinion. If RLJ was wrong I wouldn't have cared because of its independent status as a theory, it would only affect my appreciation of the text if the alternative was something that relied on "tricking" the readers or giving them red herrings that mean nothing out of the context of RLJ.

The WW seemed like it was something they were told because otherwise I don't see why they thought it was important since we already know how to kill WW and wights, and the people involved directly with that moral dilemma are gone. Bran can get visions of how to destroy them if there was a ritualistic/magical way that is needed to be uncovered and I assume that is also the main purpose of Sam's presence in the Citadel. I guess I just can't think of what they thought was important about knowing this if the mythology isn't that reliant on it and on top of that, the people involved are all dead so I don't see the moral aspect playing much of role. Unless it's all a cautionary tale for Bran (and later his allies) that an "end justifying the means" approach causes problems down the line. So outside of this eventuality, I don't see what would motivate the writers to make such a big deal out of this reveal unless they wre told it's important for whatever reason that they were probably not given. Then again, I wasn't aware there was a specific number of reveals they got from GRRM. But regardless of whether it's their idea or not, an ancient race summoning forces of nature that they can't control that ultimately leads to their extinction is not exactly unheard of nor is it super out there... which I like. I hate it when people think something can't be true because it's "too obvious", I like build up, consistency and themes. I don't want a writer to pull things out of their arse just for the gotcha.

Independently of the books and theories, I was just puzzled by the thought that the plot has gone in any surprising directions, it all sounds pretty standard tropes for me. I share your preference of characterisation and themes over shock or surprise. But since I didn't watch the season I can't speak much to that, the big stuff I've been hearing about mostly concerns people I don't care about, really Sansa is the only one that keeps me invested enough to check up on the show.

That's why I was asking about whether you guys felt like it was a particularly suspenseful season and what do you generally expect from a fantasy setting. I'm asking about fantasy specifically because in this genre more than any other, I find the overly worked twists to be contrived and it has actively ruined many a reading experience because I love to reread books and stupid twists ruin the build up for me since I know a twist that relies on being out of left field to be surprising is coming. I only brought up the theories because my knowledge of them meant the events were not surprising.

Did anyone who doesn't follow outside spoilers or read about theories feel like the plot was particularly surprising?

13 hours ago, glowbug said:

Hodor = Hold the Door was actually a fan theory prior to the reveal. The exact circumstance (that Bran caused it by going back in the past) was not a theory I'd heard though. I think there were quite a few people who thought that it occurred when Lyanna was abducted by or ran away with Rhaegar.

Oh I hadn't heard (or forgot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) about that part. It doesn't make much sense, thematically speaking. Hodor is part of Bran's storyline, why would he randomly have this super duper secret knowledge about RLJ as opposed to things to do with the character he has been carrying around for 2-3 years? My reasoning was kind of the same as for why I think the WW reveal is not just the fruit of D&D's imagination, if Hodor had seen something that would give the plot away, he can't talk about it which means it would be found out through the Weir-net, and it can be found out through the weir-net, why have him invomved at all since the guilty parties are, once again, dead and gone. It would just be sad shit because reasons. Also, I never felt like there was a need to explain why Hodor only says one word, what I wondered about was why it was this one specifically since we found out it's not his name.

BlackberryJam · August 22, 2016

Ah...I see. So it's come down to "Those aren't reveals because I don't think they will happen in the books."

I disagree. Nothing is going to happen the exact same way it happens in the books, obviously and thank the Seven because I couldn't handle hours of food porn and Dany crapping through the desert. But these things are going to happen.

The original poster took three things that were long predicted and called them the big reveals. But the big reveals are the things that people have not predicted. But people aren't going to consider them reveals because they haven't been predicted and therefore the books will be different. It's only a big reveal if it was predicted. And therefore it wasn't a surprising big reveal because it was predicted. Anything that wasn't predicted is considered to not happen in the books and is therefore not a reveal.

That kind of circular thinking makes my head ache.

Sorry, but I think it's a dead guarantee that Cersei will claim the Throne once her children are dead. If I look back, it is obvious Margaery was going to convert. She's too smart not to take that way out. Jon is so going to be declared King in the North.

My problem with the original poster is that it was a question designed for a certain answer, which was to be that S6 was predictable and not worth watching. The OP even says she isn't watching and seems to want validation for that choice.

The question came with a poor premise, which I refuted.

BlackberryJam · August 22, 2016

13 minutes ago, doram said:

Well I can't speak for the other posters - but for me - it's more like "those aren't reveals because D & D went out of their way to confirm what were book spoilers - Shireen's death & Hodor are what I remember at the moment - and said nothing about the other reveals." Considering that we've seen then make some pretty major deviations from the books - Sansa marrying Bolton for one & deleting Stoneheart - it's not unreasonable to assume that it's very likely that the non-confirmed book-reveals are not book reveals.

But D&D have enough respect for George to not completely spoil the books for people. They have never gone through a list of every single event and said, "happens in the books, doesn't, happens, doesn't, happens, doesn't." They didn't go "out of their way to confirm," but rather provided a little insight in post show interviews.

SeanC · August 22, 2016

40 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

In any case, we are not sure if Jon will just decide to lead on his own without any titles, or of he will be named King in the North. I waver on this, because that would put him in open rebellion against the Iron Throne (whoever sits on it) and several of the would be Kings of Westeros didn't like the idea of losing half their kingdom. So, taking that title, would be like declaring war on the IT, when they already have a much scarier enemy North of the Wall. I don't think Jon would want to deal with it that way.

In this society, proclaiming himself king (or else, regent for some other king, but unless Rickon is found live there wouldn't be an obvious candidate for that) would probably be necessary to lead.

Nor do I think there's any real risk involved. The Lannisters would not recognize Jon as ruler of the North in any capacity, so he'd inherently be an enemy of the Iron Throne. Maybe Aegon or Dany or whoever would see things differently, but we have no idea what the political situation will be like in the south whenever Jon gets around to asserting his leadership in the books.

fantique · August 22, 2016

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

[Qualifying this by saying I have never been impressed with Boiled Leather. His analysis of certain characters is incredibly shallow and his thinking is rigid so he misses so many things.)

I didn't think those were the big reveals at ALL. To me the big reveals were the death of Rickon, which I so thought was going to happen but not how, the Hound whipping out his dick and pissing all over Cleganebowl, literally, and Cersei crowning herself. Also, Jon being declared King in the North was a big reveal.

I don't know. I just think this post picked the most predictable things and named them the "big reveals" while ignoring the actual big reveals. Like Arya making it back to Westeros and going murdery on Walder. Or Doran and Trystane dying and the Sand Snakes surviving. Those were big reveals.

ETA: Oh and Margaery freaking converting to the Faith to get out of prison. No one predicted that one, although someone should have. The elimination of trial by combat, that was a huge thing. Daeny aligning with Asha and Theon. These were the big surprises for me.

Well I guess that's why I asked about what people find surprising because Rickon dying during the battle is pure Ramsay so when I read he didn't kill right away, I figured that's what he would do with him. And Jon being proclaimed KITN was super predictable too in my mind, it's basically fantasy 101. And I like fantasy tropes just fine since the fun for me is the characters involved feeling like real people and being invested in them. We just clearly don't find the same things surprising. Margeary being super pious to get her way is completely in character, and what else were Yara and Theon going to do after running away if not to foil their uncle's plans. These are good story beats, I just don't find them surprising and that's due to good characterisation and consistency, which I like. What I understand as a "reveal" is something is not overt or explicitly discussed enough (in universe but also sometimes out) that you know about it or even wonder unless you are questioning everything. Yara and Theon are not hiding what their plan is, they lost, stole a bunch of boats and coincidently, there is a queen that just lost a bunch of boats. It did not feel like much of a leap. Same with Margeary, she's locked up with a radical crazy person, we've seen how she handles crazy people (Joffrey); she pretends to share their delusions. So why would it be surprising for her to put on the faithful act? And she didn't convert, this was always her religion! A character thing that surprised and I considered a reveal was Yara being at the very least bisexual, that's a reveal to me because I never thought about it so reading it was like uncovering something new, that is revealing about her character.

1 hour ago, doram said:

@BlackberryJam: I think the post was pointing out the big reveals that had been confirmed are going to be book canon (Shireen's death & Hodor etc). To the best of my knowledge - Rickon's fate and Sandor's weren't confirmed in the after-show as book canon.

Um no that wasn't what I was saying, these were just what seemed to be the biggest reaction causing reveals in the recaps I read. I was asking in terms of the show, but was trying to establish that some things would obviously be less unexpected if I considered as options. As I said above, Rickon's death and how Ramsay would use him seemed obvious to me and Clegane Bowl never held any interest for me, how surprised could I be if there are only two options and I didn't have an investment in either account. And actually until they telegraphed his return, I was sure the Hound was dead in the show. I was extremely surprised when they brought him up. As for Arya's storyline, I was only surprised that it took this long. I had read somewhere that Walder Frey was back so I figured she would kill him since she was due back in Westeros soon. I just found it weird how long it took and how many episodes she was in, I just assumed she would be in the premier and three episodes max. But hey, MW got that Emmy nomination and she's defintely one of my favourite actors for this show so yay for her.

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Ah...I see. So it's come down to "Those aren't reveals because I don't think they will happen in the books."

I disagree. Nothing is going to happen the exact same way it happens in the books, obviously and thank the Seven because I couldn't handle hours of food porn and Dany crapping through the desert. But these things are going to happen.

The original poster took three things that were long predicted and called them the big reveals. But the big reveals are the things that people have not predicted. But people aren't going to consider them reveals because they haven't been predicted and therefore the books will be different. It's only a big reveal if it was predicted. And therefore it wasn't a surprising big reveal because it was predicted. Anything that wasn't predicted is considered to not happen in the books and is therefore not a reveal.

That kind of circular thinking makes my head ache.

Sorry, but I think it's a dead guarantee that Cersei will claim the Throne once her children are dead. If I look back, it is obvious Margaery was going to convert. She's too smart not to take that way out. Jon is so going to be declared King in the North.

My problem with the original poster is that it was a question designed for a certain answer, which was to be that S6 was predictable and not worth watching. The OP even says she isn't watching and seems to want validation for that choice.

The question came with a poor premise, which I refuted.

1. That's wrong, other people spoke for me and you never got a confirmation from me so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

2. I came here because the people in this group had a higher of knowing the same things that the host knew. I can't ask non book readers if they are as surprised as a book reader that had more information and opportunity to see things coming. Westeros.org seemed less appropriate because a lot of posters have exhausted all possibilities and scenarios so that would have been less indicative, I thought.

3. I think I can live with people not giving a shit whether I watch the show or not. Sorry, but I am not exactly turning in my sleep about people liking the show. I haven't had time to catch up on Silicon Valley, much less GOT. I only had time to read recaps during my commute.

4. The reveals I mentioned were specifically in terms of the show because my question was prompted by a comment that the host found the show exciting again because he felt he had no idea what would happen next, so of course I'm not talking about them in terms of what they mean for the books. If I cared about the show spoiling the books or whatever, I wouldn't fucking read recaps. I read them because I wanted to know what happened with the character I am invested in, heard good things that made me want to watch the show again (and saw an absolutely adorable gif of Sansa and Jon hugging but that's neither here nor there) but didn't have the time to watch it. That is a possibility, as apparently foreign the idea is to you.

5. I don't to have explain myself, but should I want a circle jerk of people telling me I am right to not watch show, first of all I wouldn't even have listened to BLAH because they love the show. Second of all, I wouldn't come on a TV FORUM that is mainly dedicated to the show with the books being discussed in context of the show. So either I have a genuine question or I'm a fucking moron with zero social cues. You seem unable to consider the former and seem to think the latter so let's just agree to...just not. If anyone else feels the same way, feel free to ignore and/or block me. K, thanks.

Edited August 22, 2016 by fantique
grammar, typos and more rambling

fantique · August 22, 2016

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Lol. I stand corrected. ;)

Haha, sorry that my tone was abrupt, I was slightly irritated.

WearyTraveler · August 22, 2016

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Well I can't speak for the other posters - but for me - it's more like "those aren't reveals because D & D went out of their way to confirm what were book spoilers - Shireen's death & Hodor are what I remember at the moment - and said nothing about the other reveals." Considering that we've seen then make some pretty major deviations from the books - Sansa marrying Bolton for one & deleting Stoneheart - it's not unreasonable to assume that it's very likely that the non-confirmed book-reveals are not book reveals.

Yes, I don't think it's as circular or as bad as Blackberryjam says. :)

For me, it breaks down like this:

There are some things which I could see coming from the text, which were confirmed by the show, so, they would be definite book spoilers (e.g. R+L=J). Also in this category are the plot developments D&D have confirmed Martin revealed to them (e.g. Shireen burning, Hodor's name origin)
Major characters' fates. If a major character dies in the show, then, I'm sure that will be their fate in the books. Examples of these are: Rickon, Margaery, Loras, the Blackfish, Tommen, Walder Frey and Doran. What I'm not 100% sure of is that the plot leading to their deaths will be the same in the books as it was in the show. Rickon is in Skaagos, which is pretty far away from WF, the other end of the map, actually. So, I have a hard time imagining how he will become Ramsay's prisoner and die at his hands. The Blackfish actually escaped the siege of Riverrun in the books, so, he will definitely not meet his end the same way he did on the show. Loras is dying in Dragonstone, but I can see him sailing to the sept to die by wildfire. Tommen in the books is a little boy who is still playing with kittens, he's not going to jump out of a window because Margaery dies, so, I'm pretty certain book Tommen's death will be different. As someone else pointed out, Frey may be a victim of Lady Stoneheart, and not Arya. I'd put , Bran leaving the cave and heading back south in this category, as Bran is one of GRRM's major 5.
Highly likely book spoilers. These are things that happen on the show that have a strong chance of playing out similarly in the books. For example, Cersei using wildfire to take revenge (the extent of the burning though, might be different. I think in the books she might, accidentally or on purpose, burn a much larger chunk of KL), Jon being named KitN (although, as I said, I waver on this one, because the books have given us enough of Jon's character to see him choose a different path for himself), Cersei sitting the IT (she'll definitely grab it, but I'm not sure she'll be the powerful, self assured TV Cersei, I think she'll lose the throne faster in the books, where Euron is on his way to KL, than in the show where he's only now cutting trees to make ships).
Maybe/Maybe not book spoilers. I'd put the apparent cancellation of Clegane Bowl here. While The Hound is an important character, he's not a major character, so, what the show chooses to do with him can be very fluid. Since he's heading North in the show, maybe that will be where he eventually ends up in the books too, but he could do that after killing his brother in Cersei's trial by combat. In the books, Jaimie is not coming to her rescue, so she only has FrankenMountain, if she lost her trial, and Margaery won hers, Cersei would be desperate enough and angry enough to unleash the wildfire over KL. The Hound could head North right after, and we'd get the same outcome. So, for me, there are things that could play out the same in the books or they could not. Unless D&D and/or Martin verify these, then it's still open, IMO. It wouldn't be the first time the show changed something major from the books to accommodate the constraints of the medium they are working with. Examples of this are: Aegon; Stoneheart; and Doran's awesome, secret long game. I was going to say that if it happened to one of Martin's big 5 on the show, then it would be a sure thing in the books, but they even made big changes there, like Tyrion and Jaimie remaining best buds in the show, when book Tyrion is ready to kill Jamie on sight.

Another developments that goes in this category for me is Theon and Yara/Asha joining Dany because logistically speaking they are literally separated by one continent and a half. The Greyjoy siblings are deep in the Northern snows while their uncle Victarion, who is not on the show, is the one getting closer to Dany. I think, in this case, the books will have Dany acquiring Victarion's fleet, so she can finally sail to Westeros, but I'm not sure how she will meet and ally with the two poorest Greyjoy family members. Maybe they'll go south after Stannis loses the battle of WF and meet her somewhere. But I tend to think that book Theon would want to serve the Starks to make amends for his betrayal, so, I think it's much more likely that book Theon will pledge his service to Jon and then maybe offer to be Jon's envoy to negotiate with Euron/Dany.

The story of the origin of the Walkers also goes here for me. This is mainly because in the books, they speak about R'hllor and "the other one", the one who must not be named (like Voldemort), and the red priests (Thoros, Mel, and others in Essos) speak of the two Gods being at war way before humans got into it. So, to me, the book reads as a conflict of major supernatural forces, dark and light, that is a lot older than the Children of the Forest. The whole mythology behind the Walkers, their ability to raise the dead, their physiognomy, the way they melt away when punctured by dragonglass, their weapons and armor... all of it seems a lot bigger and more ancient than the CotF just sticking a piece of dragon glass into some guy; that is just too simple, considering all the descriptions and the lore surrounding these beings in the books. So, for me, the creation of the Walkers on the TV show is a maybe, not a definitive spoiler. And it is telling that D&D have confirmed other events as definite spoilers and not this one, which is much more significant to the main plot than Shireen burning, again, IMO.
Definitely NOT book spoilers. Things that happened on the show that I'm sure will not happen in the books. Sansa will not get raped by Ramsey, and Sansa will not be the one killing Ramsey. The North Remembers will actually happen in the books, and they will rally behind a Stark to reclaim WF from the Boltons. Sansa will not lead a Vale army to rescue Jon from the Boltons, as her character is still very naïve in the books. I think she'll eventually head North, but not before the Starks are sitting in WF again.

BlackberryJam · August 22, 2016

Look, I didn't accept the premise of your question because it seemed designed for a specific answer. That doesn't mean every single thing you post is not worth reading and there is no reason for you to feel that way. Nor should you confine yourself to only two possibilities when it comes to your posting.

You're welcome.

glowbug · August 22, 2016

@WearyTraveler The assumption of the Hodor/Lyanna theory is that Lyanna was abducted or ran away from Winterfell. I don't recall the specifics but the theory was that Hodor was somehow involved in the escape/abduction and was instructed to hold the door then as a result of the abduction/escape suffers brain damage and all he can say is Hodor. I didn't personally subscribe to the theory so I'm murky on the details but that's the general idea.

OhOkayWhat · August 22, 2016

There is not cancellation of Cleganebowl in the show. At most, it is cancelled as a part of a trial of the Seven, but that is it. Cleganebowl is still very possible.

Advance35 · August 23, 2016

The theory of Cersei and Wildfire has been around for a long time as far as I understand. In AFFC, after Tommen and Margery's wedding feast Cersei has the Hands Tower burned to the ground and a lot of people considered that foreshadowing. I always thought Margaery would die by Frankengregor and Tommen would die getting caught in the crossfire, as it were. There is definitely going to be more to it, since in the books Myrcella, Lady Nym and Tyene are all heading to Kings Landing. So I think the various tickets to the Great Beyond will vary but I do think those dying in the show will meet a terrible end in the books (if they are ever published).

glowbug · August 23, 2016

GRRM already confirmed in his blog post about not being able to finish TWoW by the start of season 6 that there are characters who have died in the show that will not die in the books. He specifically said some of those who have died in the show will also die in the books and some will not so a character's death in the show doesn't necessarily indicate that they will die in the books.

WearyTraveler · August 23, 2016

8 hours ago, glowbug said:

GRRM already confirmed in his blog post about not being able to finish TWoW by the start of season 6 that there are characters who have died in the show that will not die in the books. He specifically said some of those who have died in the show will also die in the books and some will not so a character's death in the show doesn't necessarily indicate that they will die in the books.

I agree, with some characters.

If any of GRRM's top 5 (Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and Dany) dies on the show, though, I'm pretty sure they'll die in the books.

After those 5, there are other characters that are what I consider second in importance. Those are the ones with POVs in the books and/or who have been involved in the action practically since the beginning. They include: Jaimie, Cersei, Sansa, LF, Varys, Ramsay, Lord Bolton, Walder Frey, Theon, Davos, Melisandre, Sam, Jorah Mormont, and maybe others (the Hound?). I think that if any of these dies on the show, it's a good bet they will also die in the books.

Then you have other characters that are tertiary, like the Sand Snakes, fAegon, The Mountain, Gendry, etc. Whatever happens to them on the show could or could not happen to them in the books. They are basically not instrumental to reach the planned end point, so D&D use them where they can and to get other characters where they need to be, or don't use them at all.

SeanC · August 23, 2016

4 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

After those 5, there are other characters that are what I consider second in importance. Those are the ones with POVs in the books and/or who have been involved in the action practically since the beginning. They include: Jaimie, Cersei, Sansa, LF, Varys, Ramsay, Lord Bolton, Walder Frey, Theon, Davos, Melisandre, Sam, Jorah Mormont, and maybe others (the Hound?). I think that if any of these dies on the show, it's a good bet they will also die in the books.

On the subject of Varys, he's one character who has been changed so much that his fate in the shows vs. the books seems to me like it must be fairly different. In the show he is Team Dany (& Tyrion), whereas in the books he has placed all his bets on a side that is clearly going to lose. Varys on the show is basically Good Littlefinger, whereas Varys in the books is as bad as Littlefinger, just for different reasons.

Edited August 23, 2016 by SeanC

Chris24601 · August 23, 2016

On 8/21/2016 at 1:02 PM, WearyTraveler said:

D&D said George made three reveals that shocked them: one was Shireen's death, another one was Hodor's origin story and they still haven't revealed the third one. I think something as big as the origins of the WW would qualify, but since it doesn't , I tend to think that D&D invented this development themselves. As a book reader, I think there are larger forces at play here that are way more ancient and primal than the Children creating the Walkers to fight the Andals. At least that's what I'm reading in the subtext, but I could be wrong, off course.

It wasn't the Andals, the Wall had already been standing for thousands of years by the time the Andals showed up. It would have been a much earlier conflict, likely one related to Azor Ahai and/or the First Men.

Indeed, I think a case could be made that in fact the Children/Old Gods are "The Great Other" that Melisandre speaks of. It has been mentioned by Sam in the books that the ancient histories are something of a jumble. In some cases cause and effect could even be reversed, but I think it could work something like this;

The Azor Ahai legend is the Asshai retelling of the story of the Bloodstone Emperor, who murdered his sister-wife (Nissa Nissa) in a blood magic ritual to create the first dragons (wyverns, smaller non-firebreathing creatures that otherwise look like dragons originate from near Asshai) as a weapon of conquest. Azor Ahai invades Westeros with an army (the First Men) and starts burning down the Children's sacred weirwoods with his dragons. The Children respond by taking men and turning them into 'Ice Made Flesh' (i.e. the Others) to drive back Azor Ahai and the First Men. Thus the Bloodstone Emperor caused the Long Night when he attacked the Children with the weapon he forged by killing his sister-wife.

The story of the Last Hero tells us of the end of the war. The First Men have been all but defeated, the Bloodstone Emperor may have retreated back to Essos leaving his men to their fates and so the current leader of the First Men (whose name is Stark) sets out to find the Children (who control the Others) and make peace with them. He eventually finds them, a peace is struck and the Others are withdrawn to the far north. The First Men start worshiping the Old Gods and the Wall is built as a dividing line. There are presumably other terms and conditions, but they have been forgotten in the ages since. One of those terms has been broken recently though and this is what has stirred the Others from their long slumber. The Others are the enforcement mechanism of the treaty meant to punish mankind if they ever violate the peace treaty (they only attacked the Children when the Children were protecting humans).

Given the focus of the Night King on both Jon and Bran, I have to think this broken term involves the Starks somehow. Perhaps the broken terms are a ritual to be performed by the Last Hero's heir, a secret passed from King of Winter/King in the North/Warden of the North to heir that was interrupted when the Mad King slaughtered both Warden and heir at the same time. The title passed to Ned, but the knowledge of the ritual did not and so when the time for the ritual came and went without being performed, the Others began to stir. To end the threat of the Others, the King in the North must perform the ritual (perhaps with some additional terms due to it having been broken).

Which ties into the third reveal which I think shocked D&D... that Dany is the villain of the story. More precisely, the Targaryen line as a whole is the fulfillment of Azor Ahai Reborn / The Prince That Was Promised / The Stallion Who Mounts The World (all of which are variations on the same story of a great conqueror) originate in Asshai where Mirri Maz Dur, Melisandre and Dany's dragons all come from as well). The Mad King caused the Long Night by killing off the only people who knew the ritual to keep the peace. Dany birthed dragons via blood magic using the husband she mercy-killed as part of the kindling and she now stands poised to bring dragons and a foreign born army of conquest to the lands that once belonged to the Children.

My hunch is that the additional terms to stop the Others from wiping out all human life on Westeros will involve putting an end to Azor Ahai Reborn and her dragons and this is what will pit Jon (who picks his Stark-side over his Targaryen-side) against Dany for a final battle.

* * * *

Which is all a very long way of saying... I don't think the Others being a creation of the Children is necessarily something that will be show only.

SeanC · August 23, 2016

6 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Given the focus of the Night King on both Jon and Bran, I have to think this broken term involves the Starks somehow. Perhaps the broken terms are a ritual to be performed by the Last Hero's heir, a secret passed from King of Winter/King in the North/Warden of the North to heir that was interrupted when the Mad King slaughtered both Warden and heir at the same time. The title passed to Ned, but the knowledge of the ritual did not and so when the time for the ritual came and went without being performed, the Others began to stir. To end the threat of the Others, the King in the North must perform the ritual (perhaps with some additional terms due to it having been broken).

Arguments like this that revolve around the Stark bloodline as somehow being the cause of the Others' return never make much sense to me. First, if any such ritual had been carried out for 8000 years, more people than just two at a time would know about it. Second, the Starks were not the Kings of Winter in the time of Bran the Builder, the presumed originator of this treaty.

WearyTraveler · August 23, 2016

Also, according to AWOIAF, by the time the Long Night came, the Children and the First Men had already been at peace for thousands of years. So, the Others showing up was not the catalyst for their peace agreement.

Chris24601 · August 24, 2016

On 8/23/2016 at 4:27 PM, WearyTraveler said:

Also, according to AWOIAF, by the time the Long Night came, the Children and the First Men had already been at peace for thousands of years. So, the Others showing up was not the catalyst for their peace agreement.

AWOIAF was written as an 'in universe' tome so it can be prone to the biases and understanding of the fictional writer (supposedly a Maester of the Citadel who compiled the work at the behest of Tywin Lannister if I recall) so it's facts cannot be taken as 100% gospel.

Meanwhile in the actual novels, Sam remarks that the dating of some of the past events is most likely off by thousands of years, meaning that some events could have occurred in completely different orders than the commonly accepted history and some could have actually occurred at the same time.

There's a LOT of things many book readers have presumed to be facts (ex. Bran will never leave the tree) that are more fanon than canon. It never hurts to question assumptions, particularly when someone as nuanced as Martin is writing the tale.

WearyTraveler · August 25, 2016

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

AWOIAF was written as an 'in universe' tome so it can be prone to the biases and understanding of the fictional writer (supposedly a Maester of the Citadel who compiled the work at the behest of Tywin Lannister if I recall) so it's facts cannot be taken as 100% gospel.

Meanwhile in the actual novels, Sam remarks that the dating of some of the past events is most likely off by thousands of years, meaning that some events could have occurred in completely different orders than the commonly accepted history and some could have actually occurred at the same time.

There's a LOT of things many book readers have presumed to be facts (ex. Bran will never leave the tree) that are more fanon than canon. It never hurts to question assumptions, particularly when someone as nuanced as Martin is writing the tale.

The AWOIAF that I was referring to and linked to in my post was "A Wiki of Ice and Fire", which is the place where all the information from all available canon is recorded. It was created and it's currently maintained by a couple of people who were so good at documenting canon from the books and keeping a record of it, that Martin himself invited one of them to write "A World of Ice and Fire" with him. They are obsessed to the point of worship with Martin's work, sometimes taking it to such extremes as to actually insult and engage in (in)famous internet feuds with anyone who dares to even slightly criticize Martin or his work. Martin himself has said in interviews that he has them read his work to fact check it against existing canon.

The article I quoted in my post has 39 sources; 30 of them are the published novels from A Song of Ice and Fire. The information in the wiki is as canon as it gets. One can always say that history is wrongly recorded, or that it's written by the winners, and yada, yada, yada; but that is the history that exists for this world. I can accept that there are instances where known history might be factually wrong, but not in this instance where we are talking about a 4,000 year period of peace. Had the number been 10 or even 20 years, sure, maybe the history is wrong, but not here, IMO.

After all, someone as nuanced as Martin, has given the wiki his seal of approval.

Edited August 25, 2016 by WearyTraveler

nikma · April 8, 2017

We should use this thread more often. :D

OhOkayWhat · April 8, 2017

Last time it was August (last year).

Meredith Quill · April 9, 2017

Mod Note:

The discussion comparing the books to the show has been split into its own topic here. Please use that for general analysis on the subject of books vs show, and keep this topic for specific differences only.

Thanks!

Edith · July 13, 2017

I don't know where to put this.

Grrm interview with Time magazine

"Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing"

I think this is a confirmation that wights and beric, LS and Jon?! are

the same thing only that reanimated one by ice and the other by fire.

What do you guys think about GRRM's revelation here?

Advance35 · August 2, 2017

The Tyrells are my favorite of the Great Houses on the whole. I like various characters from other Houses but I like pretty much ALL of the Tyrells on one level or another so I'm really curious to see how GRRM is going to bring about their downfall. I don't think the House will be around after the story is told as I'm one of the people that truly believes the show runners are guiding each of these characters to meet the same fate their book character will, it's just a matter of how. I don't think the majority of House Tyrell will be wiped out by Wildfire but I don't think Margaery is leaving Kings Landing alive.

I think Dance set up House Lannister working to poach Randyll Tarly out from the Tyrells, as of the epilogue, Randall Tarly is one of the main players in Kings Landing. But I think the intrigue will be much more fierce then it was in the show since Book!Mace is FAR more combative to House Lannister then the show version. Mix in Lady Nym and Tyene whom are both on their way to Kings Landing and hostile to both Lannister and Tyrells.

GRRM say's we'll definitely see more of Olenna as well as Willas and Highgarden. I don't know how, but I think it will line up like the show, where Olenna is the only one left in the end.

Sigh I am content with the show but I wish GRRM were actually going to finish the novels.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Advance35

SeanC · August 2, 2017

55 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I think Dance set up House Lannister working to poach Randyll Tarly out from the Tyrells, as of the epilogue, Randall Tarly is one of the main players in Kings Landing.

Randyl Tarly is the epitome of a Westerosi misogynist. He would never back Cersei. If he's going to turn on House Tyrell at some point in the books, it will be for Aegon VI>

YaddaYadda · August 2, 2017

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Randyl Tarly is the epitome of a Westerosi misogynist. He would never back Cersei. If he's going to turn on House Tyrell at some point in the books, it will be for Aegon VI>

I agree. Plus I think that whatever Tarly said about William Mooton, he probably applies it to Mace Tyrell. I doubt the man has any respect for his liege lord whatsoever. And I can't imagine he's happy about Brightwater Keep being Garlan Tyrell's new seat. Aegon getting Tarly on his side though, that would be a massive coup.

I can very easily see an alliance between Cersei and Euron. Euron will turn his attention elsewhere when he finds out Victarion has double-crossed him.

SeanC · August 2, 2017

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I can very easily see an alliance between Cersei and Euron. Euron will turn his attention elsewhere when he finds out Victarion has double-crossed him.

There's no way Victarion can actually do anything to Euron; Euron is evil and kind of mad, but he's not stupid. He would never have given Victarion the dragonbinder if it could be used against him. One of the running jokes of Victarion's plotline in ADWD is how totally oblivious he is to his own impending doom and the people manipulating him to it.

I can't really imagine any sort of Cersei/Euron alliance in the books, because Cersei doesn't have anything that Euron wants.

YaddaYadda · August 2, 2017

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

There's no way Victarion can actually do anything to Euron; Euron is evil and kind of mad, but he's not stupid. He would never have given Victarion the dragonbinder if it could be used against him. One of the running jokes of Victarion's plotline in ADWD is how totally oblivious he is to his own impending doom and the people manipulating him to it.

I can't really imagine any sort of Cersei/Euron alliance in the books, because Cersei doesn't have anything that Euron wants.

Victarion is headed to Dany not for Euron anymore, but for himself. He has the ships and Groleo is now dead, so she will need a new admiral for the fleet she doesn't have. I agree that he's headed to his own death, and that may very well happen at Euron's hands. We'll see what happens, but I think the Victarion plot was given to Asha.

SeanC · August 2, 2017

27 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Victarion is headed to Dany not for Euron anymore, but for himself.

I agree, but Euron had to know that. He knows Victarion hates him.

The implication is fairly strong that the Dusky Woman is actually Euron's agent.

YaddaYadda · August 2, 2017

30 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The implication is fairly strong that the Dusky Woman is actually Euron's agent.

I agree. Especially since Vic tells her everything he's thinking, everything he's planning.

Edited August 2, 2017 by YaddaYadda

Advance35 · September 2, 2017

Now that the season is over I can say without fear of being wrong, GRRM will NEVER finish this series. There is NO WAY he can get the various factions and characters to where they are in the show within 2 books. I think Dany and Jon are two of the most boring main characters I've seen in recent television history, they may be marginally more interesting in the books, but honestly not by much. There is a reason the most talked about portions of the books and show are the Red Wedding, Purple Wedding and various Political Schemes always simmering in Kings Landing. If the show had such a difficult time shifting the entire saga so that Jon/Dany are really the center of the universe, I can only imagine how jarring it will be in the book, when the most interesting characters Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Jaimie, Brienne, The Tarlys, LF, Sansa, The Vale and the Highborn Court, The Tyrells, The Martells, all are forced to take a backseat.

The show was unable to imbue the atmosphere that was so palpable in the book. Littlefinger/Sansa come off SO sinister in the book and due to our insights into her thoughts we know Sansa is nowhere near as cold as she was portrayed on the show. But on top of Lyssa's murder, Sansa's resentment fueled catering to Lord Robyn (and his developing fixation on her), LF's various schemes to divide and conquer the Lords Declarant, Sansa's LF instructed seduction of Harry the Heir, her Frienemy dance with Myranda Royce, mixed with Wildcards Set Shadrich, Luthor Brone and Mya Stone. Their is NO WAY Sansa gets up to the North anytime soon.

The Cersei v. The Tyrell's feud will probably end the same way but there is so much ground to cover. Michelle Clapton made a point of always having the Ladies of the Court in styles that seesawed between Cersei's influence and Margaery's, I believe she said this was to show the power struggle being waged between the Lannister's and the Tyrells but in the book, The Tyrell's influence in Kings Landing is MUCH more pronounced and obvious. While Kevan's final chapter gives the impression that Randyll Tarly's allegiance will be in play, The Tyrell's have The Redwynes, The Fossoways and many lesser nobles granting them a strong hold over the Royal Court. Mace is Hand of the King and their are countless other caveats we will need to see Cersei meet head on and overcome.

The show DRASTICALLY if not completely altered these stories in the show and I can understand why they did but these are story knots that are going to take GRRM quite a bit of page time to resolve. And these are only the two stories that interest me, I haven't even touched on Jaimie/Brienne, Stannis, Ramsay and many others.

The books are superior to the show but based on where all these characters are heading, I feel like GRRM would need at least 4 more books to tell this story in a way that won't shortchange the readers.

Alapaki · September 3, 2017

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Now that the season is over I can say without fear of being wrong, GRRM will NEVER finish this series. There is NO WAY he can get the various factions and characters to where they are in the show within 2 books.

I've also decided that GRRM is not releasing Winds of Winter, ever.

But I think the reason is that . . . . why bother? For money? If so, he'd have done that already.

And the remaining books would be, imo, very much anti-climactic.

A huge part of the book series has been leading up to the R+L=J reveal. Well, that's done now. It's confirmed.

Another huge part: Dany finally getting back to Westeros. Well, she's there now. I've loved the books. But I don't really care what path GRRM takes to get Dany back to Westeros, and whether or how it differs from what we're shown on TV.

On and on. Is Stannis really dead outside the walls of Winterfell? What's the deal with Hodor? etc.

What great reveals are there left for GRRM?

herbz · September 3, 2017

15 hours ago, Advance35 said:

The show DRASTICALLY if not completely altered these stories in the show and I can understand why they did but these are story knots that are going to take GRRM quite a bit of page time to resolve. And these are only the two stories that interest me, I haven't even touched on Jaimie/Brienne, Stannis, Ramsay and many others.

The books are superior to the show but based on where all these characters are heading, I feel like GRRM would need at least 4 more books to tell this story in a way that won't shortchange the readers.

I completely agree with this. He's confirmed POVs for TWOW from Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Bran, Melisandre, Victarion, Barristan, Theon, Arianne, Areo Hotah etc etc and not alllllllll that much happens in the sample chapters released. Presumably we're not going to ignore King's Landing after the chaos caused by Kevan's murder for a whole book, and there's the whole situation with Jaime, Brienne and LSH to deal with as well. Tyrion hasn't even met Dany yet! I don't see how she could possibly leave for Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest unless this book is 2000 pages long. Which leaves Dragonstone, Jon and Dany meeting, dealing with fAegon, trying to rally Westeros, fighting the Others, settling the throne, and rebuilding for ADOS. You'd need the most ruthless editor going to manage that if you're going to keep 20 POVs still. Much as it irritates me sometimes that some of my favourites have had their characterisations thrown out the window for plot reasons and everyone is teleporting everywhere, if everything does boil down to Jon and Dany in the end I can see why others have been put to the side. I'm just glad we're going to get an ending.

SimoneS · September 6, 2017

On 9/3/2017 at 11:02 AM, herbz said:

Much as it irritates me sometimes that some of my favourites have had their characterisations thrown out the window for plot reasons and everyone is teleporting everywhere, if everything does boil down to Jon and Dany in the end I can see why others have been put to the side. I'm just glad we're going to get an ending.

They might not like it, but IMO tv show is the best thing that has ever happened for the readers who want to know how the GOT story ends. Martin started off writing a trilogy and then extended the story maybe for the money, maybe because he was bored and wanted a challenge. Whatever the reason, he is clearly lost and unable to find his way back to complete the story which is not a surprise; the books have gotten convoluted and unwieldy with too many characters, plots, and point of views. Some readers will never accept the show's version of the story's ending, but for those who want an ending, it is likely the closest they are going to get to an "official" or "canon" ending.

Thinking about it, as much money as Martin has made from GoT as an artist he must feel crushed that he is unable to move forward with the story. I still hope that he gets a ghostwriter and a good editor to help him finish the story before it is too late.

Edited September 6, 2017 by SimoneS

MarySNJ · September 7, 2017

On 9/5/2017 at 9:20 PM, SimoneS said:

They might not like it, but IMO tv show is the best thing that has ever happened for the readers who want to know how the GOT story ends. Martin started off writing a trilogy and then extended the story maybe for the money, maybe because he was bored and wanted a challenge. Whatever the reason, he is clearly lost and unable to find his way back to complete the story which is not a surprise; the books have gotten convoluted and unwieldy with too many characters, plots, and point of views. Some readers will never accept the show's version of the story's ending, but for those who want an ending, it is likely the closest they are going to get to an "official" or "canon" ending.

Thinking about it, as much money as Martin has made from GoT as an artist he must feel crushed that he is unable to move forward with the story. I still hope that he gets a ghostwriter and a good editor to help him finish the story before it is too late.

Well, I hope he finishes some day, but I've made peace with the idea that the tv show may give us our only ending to the story. I wonder if having to give D&D a firm answer on his plans for the end of the story has caused him to lose interest in finishing the books.

My opinion is that GRRM's "gardening" style of writing is reason the original trilogy was extended to 7 books. I don't object to the story changing as it goes, rather than sticking to a strict outline, especially since what we've gotten so far is better than the original story described in the infamous letter from 1993. But GRRM's garden has a lot of exotic plants in it and they grew like weeds and are hard to bring under control.

I think GRRM enjoys the world-building as much as the story arcs and between creating and describing the places, mythology and food, he's weaving the main plot - or trying to. Again, while learning about the World of Ice and Fire is fun as a sideline, it's not the Story.

Now, he seems to be moving on to other projects with HBO. I fear that he has lost his way with ASOIAF which makes me sad.

YaddaYadda · September 7, 2017

On 9/2/2017 at 8:45 PM, Alapaki said:

A huge part of the book series has been leading up to the R+L=J reveal. Well, that's done now. It's confirmed.

Another huge part: Dany finally getting back to Westeros. Well, she's there now. I've loved the books. But I don't really care what path GRRM takes to get Dany back to Westeros, and whether or how it differs from what we're shown on TV.

On and on. Is Stannis really dead outside the walls of Winterfell? What's the deal with Hodor? etc.

What great reveals are there left for GRRM?

That's well and good and we've known about who Jon's parents were since the first book, so I think, and I can only speak for myself, it's more about everything that happened from Harrenhal to that moment on the Trident or in the tower.

Why does Stannis who wants his daughter to succeed him should he fail, decide to feed her to the flames instead? That's like a complete 180 (although we can guess what his reasoning is).

Are the Others really going to use a dragon to get passed the Wall or is Jon's stabbing (on top of Jeor Mormont's murder and the violation of guest rights) a massive contributing factor in the Wall coming down or being breached? So long as the Night's Watch remains true, the Others cannot pass, that's what Old Nan tells Bran. And we know the Night's Watch hasn't been true in a very long time. We know the Wall will come down, we've known that since the first pages of AGOT.

I also wanna know if I'm right about some of the connections and what the three heads of the dragon is. You know, so that I lord it over my friends' heads.

I'm here for the journey, now more now than ever. I've always loved the books and the characters (though some I just plain hate and wish a thousand deaths upon them), but the way the show has gone about things makes me want the books even more.

I'm also the super annoying person who wants to know everything about everything.

I also don't care how Dany gets back to Westeros as long as she effin' gets to Westeros and we can leave the Slaver's Bay nightmare behind us. That arc has been dragging for forever and a day. It needs to end. I don't care if the dragons burn Meereen, Yunkai, Astapor and Qarth and everyone that lives in them. Let's just be done with that.

Edited September 7, 2017 by YaddaYadda

WindyNights · September 8, 2017

On 9/2/2017 at 4:03 PM, Advance35 said:

Now that the season is over I can say without fear of being wrong, GRRM will NEVER finish this series. There is NO WAY he can get the various factions and characters to where they are in the show within 2 books. I think Dany and Jon are two of the most boring main characters I've seen in recent television history, they may be marginally more interesting in the books, but honestly not by much. There is a reason the most talked about portions of the books and show are the Red Wedding, Purple Wedding and various Political Schemes always simmering in Kings Landing. If the show had such a difficult time shifting the entire saga so that Jon/Dany are really the center of the universe, I can only imagine how jarring it will be in the book, when the most interesting characters Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Jaimie, Brienne, The Tarlys, LF, Sansa, The Vale and the Highborn Court, The Tyrells, The Martells, all are forced to take a backseat.

The show was unable to imbue the atmosphere that was so palpable in the book. Littlefinger/Sansa come off SO sinister in the book and due to our insights into her thoughts we know Sansa is nowhere near as cold as she was portrayed on the show. But on top of Lyssa's murder, Sansa's resentment fueled catering to Lord Robyn (and his developing fixation on her), LF's various schemes to divide and conquer the Lords Declarant, Sansa's LF instructed seduction of Harry the Heir, her Frienemy dance with Myranda Royce, mixed with Wildcards Set Shadrich, Luthor Brone and Mya Stone. Their is NO WAY Sansa gets up to the North anytime soon.

The Cersei v. The Tyrell's feud will probably end the same way but there is so much ground to cover. Michelle Clapton made a point of always having the Ladies of the Court in styles that seesawed between Cersei's influence and Margaery's, I believe she said this was to show the power struggle being waged between the Lannister's and the Tyrells but in the book, The Tyrell's influence in Kings Landing is MUCH more pronounced and obvious. While Kevan's final chapter gives the impression that Randyll Tarly's allegiance will be in play, The Tyrell's have The Redwynes, The Fossoways and many lesser nobles granting them a strong hold over the Royal Court. Mace is Hand of the King and their are countless other caveats we will need to see Cersei meet head on and overcome.

The show DRASTICALLY if not completely altered these stories in the show and I can understand why they did but these are story knots that are going to take GRRM quite a bit of page time to resolve. And these are only the two stories that interest me, I haven't even touched on Jaimie/Brienne, Stannis, Ramsay and many others.

The books are superior to the show but based on where all these characters are heading, I feel like GRRM would need at least 4 more books to tell this story in a way that won't shortchange the readers.

The book is going in a very direction from the show.

Cersei's won her trial in the beginning of TWOW for instance.

Jon doesn't need to knock door to door to gather the North because Stannis has already gathered the North.

etc.

TBH, season 6 was largely empty as was season 7.

You also have to think about how a 1500 page book can cover a lot especially if it's anything like ASOS which GRRM is promising TWOW to be.

On 9/3/2017 at 8:02 AM, herbz said:

I completely agree with this. He's confirmed POVs for TWOW from Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Bran, Melisandre, Victarion, Barristan, Theon, Arianne, Areo Hotah etc etc and not alllllllll that much happens in the sample chapters released. Presumably we're not going to ignore King's Landing after the chaos caused by Kevan's murder for a whole book, and there's the whole situation with Jaime, Brienne and LSH to deal with as well. Tyrion hasn't even met Dany yet! I don't see how she could possibly leave for Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest unless this book is 2000 pages long. Which leaves Dragonstone, Jon and Dany meeting, dealing with fAegon, trying to rally Westeros, fighting the Others, settling the throne, and rebuilding for ADOS. You'd need the most ruthless editor going to manage that if you're going to keep 20 POVs still. Much as it irritates me sometimes that some of my favourites have had their characterisations thrown out the window for plot reasons and everyone is teleporting everywhere, if everything does boil down to Jon and Dany in the end I can see why others have been put to the side. I'm just glad we're going to get an ending.

We won't have 20 POVs throughout the rest of the series.

He said we'll have less than 13 POV by the end of TWOW. And that he's going to kill a lot of POV characters to free up some.

WindyNights · September 8, 2017

On 7/13/2017 at 11:10 AM, Edith said:

I don't know where to put this.

Grrm interview with Time magazine

"Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing"

I think this is a confirmation that wights and beric, LS and Jon?! are

the same thing only that reanimated one by ice and the other by fire.

What do you guys think about GRRM's revelation here?

Well it means his Jon is going to go through a massive personality change and that Jon is a lich. A corpse with a soul attached

MarySNJ · September 8, 2017

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well it means his Jon is going to go through a massive personality change and that Jon is a lich. A corpse with a soul attached

That's if Jon is resurrected by the same magic as Beric was. We don't know that yet. I think the fact that Jon is warg and has Ghost with him will make a difference in Jon's state after resurrection.

WindyNights · September 8, 2017

4 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

That's if Jon is resurrected by the same magic as Beric was. We don't know that yet. I think the fact that Jon is warg and has Ghost with him will make a difference in Jon's state after resurrection.

Well GRRM said that Beric was the set up for LSH's and Jon's resurrection. And there's no other method of resurrection available besides ice resurrection.

Jon warging into Ghost can affect his personality, I'll give you that, but it doesn't affect his physical state. And what GRRM has said is that there isn't actually true resurrection. What you have instead is reanimation. The body's biological processes don't restart instead you have magic keeping you alive. Its reanimation not resurrection.

screamin · September 9, 2017

It WAS weird that it looked like Jon's wounds never healed shut after all this time. It would creep me out to look into their gaping depths for any length of time, but Dany didn't let it slow her down.

MarySNJ · September 9, 2017

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well GRRM said that Beric was the set up for LSH's and Jon's resurrection. And there's no other method of resurrection available besides ice resurrection.

Jon warging into Ghost can affect his personality, I'll give you that, but it doesn't affect his physical state. And what GRRM has said is that there isn't actually true resurrection. What you have instead is reanimation. The body's biological processes don't restart instead you have magic keeping you alive. Its reanimation not resurrection.

Granted, and it's a reasonable inference based on what we know now. But in the quote you have above, GRRM only mentions Beric. I don't see a mention of Jon. Was there another part to this quote I missed? I wonder because in the ADWD Prologue there was so much made of Varamyr Sixskins and his second life. I have to believe that it will impact how Jon comes back from death since he is also a Warg. He may be a unique case, because... magic.

In the TV version, its more like Jon was resuscitated. 'We're on the same side... we're all breathing.' He breaths and drinks and sleeps, and still can engage in sexual intercourse, all of which would be impossible or unnecessary if he's just a reanimated corpse.

Edited September 9, 2017 by MarySNJ

WindyNights · September 9, 2017

12 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Granted, and it's a reasonable inference based on what we know now. But in the quote you have above, GRRM only mentions Beric. I don't see a mention of Jon. Was there another part to this quote I missed? I wonder because in the ADWD Prologue there was so much made of Varamyr Sixskins and his second life. I have to believe that it will impact how Jon comes back from death since he is also a Warg. He may be a unique case, because... magic.

In the TV version, its more like Jon was resuscitated. 'We're on the same side... we're all breathing.' He breaths and drinks and sleeps, and still can engage in sexual intercourse, all of which would be impossible or unnecessary if he's just a reanimated corpse.

Yeah, you're missing some of of the quote.

I'll give you more context than that though:

GRRM:Yeah, maybe. That may have been part of it. Part of it was also, it’s the dialogue that I was talking about. And here I’ve got to get back to Tolkien again. And I’m going to seem like I’m criticizing him, which I guess I am. It’s always bothered me that Gandalf comes back from the dead. The Red Wedding for me in Lord of the Rings is the mines of Moria, and when Gandalf falls — it’s a devastating moment! I didn’t see it coming at 13 years old, it just totally took me by surprise. Gandalf can’t die! He’s the guy that knows all of the things that are happening! He’s one of the main heroes here! Oh god, what are they going to do without Gandalf? Now it’s just the hobbits?! And Boromir, and Aragorn? Well, maybe Aragorn will do, but it’s just a huge moment. A huge emotional investment.

GRRM: And then in the next book, he shows up again, and it was six months between the American publications of those books, which seemed like a million years to me. So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character

Interviewer:And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

GRRM: Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

In the books, Arya notes that Beric doesn't eat or sleep. And you know LSH shouldn't really be able to walk around with a slit throat so although biological processes aren't working, they can imitate human being no matter how biologically impossible that should be.

MadMouse · September 9, 2017

I've seen some topics elsewhere come up about how the show has white washed relationships and it got me thinking. Tyrion and Shae, she was using him in the books but in the show she kinda loves him. Jaime and Cersei too, they down played her screwing around. Dany and Jon were both raped but the show down played that too, but when she speaks to Jon she brings up being raped. I'm curious why they changed directions in the show all the sudden?

SimoneS · September 9, 2017

23 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well GRRM said that Beric was the set up for LSH's and Jon's resurrection. And there's no other method of resurrection available besides ice resurrection.

Frankly, I don't believe GRRM when it comes to Jon. No way he makes his lead male protagonist half alive. I wouldn't be surprised if figuring a way to wiggling out of this is one of the reasons that he is stuck.

Edited September 9, 2017 by SimoneS

Wouter · September 9, 2017

On 3-9-2017 at 1:03 AM, Advance35 said:

The show was unable to imbue the atmosphere that was so palpable in the book. Littlefinger/Sansa come off SO sinister in the book and due to our insights into her thoughts we know Sansa is nowhere near as cold as she was portrayed on the show. But on top of Lyssa's murder, Sansa's resentment fueled catering to Lord Robyn (and his developing fixation on her), LF's various schemes to divide and conquer the Lords Declarant, Sansa's LF instructed seduction of Harry the Heir, her Frienemy dance with Myranda Royce, mixed with Wildcards Set Shadrich, Luthor Brone and Mya Stone. Their is NO WAY Sansa gets up to the North anytime soon.

Allthough I agree that Martin can never finish in two books (even three may be pushing it), I'm not sure Sansa needs to get north in the books in order for those things to play out. Sansa has a large supporting cast in the Vale, Littlefinger is there, Arya can go there in the books (note that in the show, Arya missed Jon, a reunion which would have to wait in the books if the Sansa/Arya/LF-confrontation plays out in the Vale) and Bran can give input through dreams or through speaking ravens or whispering trees (he used the first with Jon and the last with Theon). So why not let LF die there?

The other parts of Sansa's northern storyline (marrying Ramsay, fight with Boltons, controlling northern lords) would be taken by Jeyne Poole (obviously), Stannis and maybe Jon. Sansa can still return to Winterfell after the Vale storyline is done, but that may be late in the book storyline (so we may not even get to that point).

32 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Frankly, I don't believe GRRM when it comes to Jon. No way he makes his lead male protagonist half alive. I wouldn't be surprised if figuring a way to wiggling out of this is one of the reasons that he is stuck.

Allthough GRRM may be misleading here, I'm pretty sure he would simply not have killed Jon if by doing so he would now consider himself stuck. I don't doubt this was planned. If his body changes because of the resurrection (and it should, considering it's going to be magic ritual on a dead body, most likely by Melisandre's fire magic), maybe this could actually offer benefits as far as the fight against the Others goes (resistance to cold would be nice - Melisandre doesn't need an external fire, doesn't she?).

In that case though, there may also be a price to pay, as those huge magic feats always seem to take a toll in ASOIAF.

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