Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Winnief]

Speaking of I'm wondering if next week is going to be the curtain call of Sansa Stark.

Not a chance.

 

Yeah, not because she hasn't died yet in the books, but because her story arc isn't finished.  Horrible as Shireen's fate was, they've been building up to it since season 3 and it was the logical culmination.  The same was also true for the deaths of Ned and Robb...but Sansa?!?  Sansa still has some kind of role of play the question is what?

 

And the way things have gone this season, it would be a bad move for D&D *not* to at least hint at Jon's resurrection.  The unrelenting grimness is really grinding people down and they need *some* small kernel of hope. 

[mac123x]

There was a spoiler at the beginning of the season that we'd have four named characters dead this season that are still alive in the books.  So far, it's been:  Mance, Ser Barristan, and now Shireen and Hizdar in E5.09.  Does this mean Meryn Trant isn't going to die next episode?  Damn.

[Skeeter22]

I agree with another poster...the show has to give the good guys some kind of hope next week. A Sansa victory...Jon being revealed as alive. Something. I think it might be too much grim for the Unsullied.

Forget the Unsullied, this is getting too grim for all of us. A Stark needs a win in the season finale, and Arya killing Meryn Trant isn't going to cut it. He's small potatoes.

I'm rooting for Sansa and Brienne to take back Winterfell somehow. Stannis and the Boltons can kill each other.

I'm not shocked that Shireen was burned, but the way it happened shocked me. You can't tell me that none of Stannis' s followers wouldn't mutiny in the face of that. How can they trust Stannis now? There's nowhere for Stannis to go from here.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Skeeter22

[nksarmi]

I thought Hizdar died in the books?  I couldn't remember.  We better have a few more deaths than that - I want Ayra to kill Trant AND Brie to kill Stannis AND Roose or Ramsey to bite it. I'm over this shit - I want a massive death toll next week.

[Advance35]

And the way things have gone this season, it would be a bad move for D&D *not* to at least hint at Jon's resurrection.  The unrelenting grimness is really grinding people down and they need *some* small kernel of hope.

 

 

The reactions I've been seeing have been in the vein of "That was an incredible episode."   I know Kit Harrington cut his hair and he said he was told by the show to "Not" do that.   But also wasn't there a spoiler about someone throwing their script when they saw what happened to them in an episode?   I don't think it was Ser Barristan.

 

I just feel like Sansa is rallying herself for a Hale Mary play and those don't tend to go well for Starks.   I don't think there will be a cheery or silver lining scene unless it's on Dany's part of the show.     Or maybe Arya will take out Meryn Trant.   I hope I'm wrong as she's one of the most interesting characters to me but I could see Sansa buying it.   If she takes over Winterfell what's left for her to do, enjoy it until the White Walkers come.   If she runs to Castle Black we know what's waiting for her there.   The only thing I could see is if she convinces Ramsay she's all in with him, Maybe determined to hold Winterfell for whatever reason.    

 

I've been thrown for a such a big loop tonight I can't even keep my theories straight.

[benteen]

Forget the Unsullied, this is getting to grim for all of us. A Stark needs a win in the season finale, and Arya killing Meryn Trant isn't going to cut it. He's small potatoes.

I'm rooting for Sansa and Brienne to take back Winterfell somehow. Stannis and the Boltons can kill each other.

I'm not shocked that Shireen was burned, but the way it happened shocked me. You can't tell me that none of Stannis' s followers wouldn't mutiny in the face of that. How can they trust Stannis now? There's nowhere for Stannis to go from here.

 

The lack of a mutiny surprised me but at the same time, what are they going to do?  To survive, they need to go North and Stannis gives them the best chance to survive.  THEN they can turn on him.  Though yeah, if his entire army turned on him then, there might be an issue.

 

At the very least, Stannis's army (which outside of Davos is just a bunch of extras) should realize that this isn't the guy they want to serve and have rule over them.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

There was a spoiler at the beginning of the season that we'd have four named characters dead this season that are still alive in the books. 

That quote has circulated a lot, but I don't know that I've ever seen the original source for it.

 

In any event, Trant is clearly dying.

[benteen]

I have to imagine this will destroy Davos's relationship to Stannis, as well as destroying the Davos character himself.  He'll feel like this is the second child he let down, the first being his grown son.  If he hooks up with Team Stark, I guess finding Rickon will be his one, last shot at saving a child.

[magdalene]

I never liked Stannis but I didn't think he would ever be somebody I absolutely loathed. The longer this show goes on the longer my die already! list gets.

[GreyBunny]

I'm not shocked that Shireen was burned, but the way it happened shocked me. You can't tell me that none of Stannis' s followers wouldn't mutiny in the face of that. How can they trust Stannis now? There's nowhere for Stannis to go from here.

Some of them probably admire Stannis because he was willing to step up and sacrifice even his own child instead of just making the smallfolk to do all of the sacrificing.  Some could rationalize it that he gave up his royal daughter to save his commoner soldiers: "Princess Shireen died for ME!"  There are a lot of ways they could justify something so twisted.

[Pete Martell]

The reactions I've been seeing have been in the vein of "That was an incredible episode."   I know Kit Harrington cut his hair and he said he was told by the show to "Not" do that.   But also wasn't there a spoiler about someone throwing their script when they saw what happened to them in an episode?   I don't think it was Ser Barristan.

 

Based on how unhappy the actor was on Twitter, I wouldn't be surprised. 

 

At this point Sansa is someone I don't even really know, so I think I'd greet a death or a great victory from her with a shrug. It's hard to care about a Stark in Winterfell when the Stark is some stranger.

 

I wouldn't be all that shocked if Theon is killed off. He has no real story point now, and Sansa is even getting his lines - he's that redundant to D&D. I'm sure they'd consider it "shocking," and I'm sure the fans who see him as beyond redemption would be excited going into next season.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pete Martell

[DigitalCount]

I thought Finn Jones (Loras) threw the script.

[InsertWordHere]

After seeing this season's episode 9, I do wish the Hardhome scenes had been in this episode and not the last, as good as it was. Imagine if they had slightly changed the last two episodes around so that episode 9 consisted solely of the Pit scenes, the Shireen burning, and Hardhome. By removing Hardhome from Episode 8, and replacing those scenes with the Dorne, Arya, and early Stannis scenes from this week's episode, all the other storylines would have a little more time devoted to them and maybe not seem as disjointed. All we would lose is Jon's return scene from this episode, which really just served to tell us there's trouble brewing at the Wall.

 

"The Dance of Dragons" would have then consisted of the dragon queen's flight, a Baratheon with Targaryen blood burning his part Targaryen daughter alive, and a (probable) Targaryen facing down the Night's King in the North. Dragons and White Walkers. The Red God and the Great Other. Ice and fire. 

 

It wouldn't change much in the long run, but it would have an appealing symmetry to it. 

[ElizaD]

The showrunners can say "oh, Shireen is burned in the books" but unless they or GRRM explicitly say that Stannis is the one who gives the order, I'll remain convinced that it's the work of Selyse and Melisandre and the showrunners changed the plot because they hate Stannis and this version is more shocking, and as long as the end is the same (dead Shireen, dead Stannis/Sansa in Winterfell), they don't think it matters who actually burns the child or is raped by a Bolton. Book Stannis is at Winterfell with Theon/Asha and far away from Book Shireen, who he sees as his heir and the queen his followers must fight for if he dies.

[Pete Martell]

I thought Finn Jones (Loras) threw the script.

 

That makes sense.

 

I wouldn't have blamed him if he'd peed on it.

[Advance35]

Book Stannis is at Winterfell with Theon/Asha and far away from Book Shireen, who he sees as his heir and the queen his followers must fight for if he dies.

 

Travelogues be spared.  LF traveled from Kings Landing to the Fingers and then to The Vale in a few chapters.  Don't know how exactly Shireen's story plays out but I wouldn't be shocked if it plays out the same in the book ultimately.  Davos is gone, maybe Stannis loses the battle for Winterfell and is convinced by Mel to go all the way (The man murdered his brother for the Throne, certain things can turn into a slippery slope) in terms of being Sacrifice Happy.

 

GRRM is know fool, if this is a HUGE deviation from his book I have know doubt he would make that known.   Maybe we'll get a lot of internal monolgues or poetic dialogue about how difficult a decision this is but I'm inclined to believe this is how things end for Shireen in the books.  I believe the Show had originally intended to leave Shireen out entirely but after speaking with GRRM included her, I think this will be the Event Horizon for Stannis's character where we see the dark lengths he'll go to to get the Throne.  He murdered his brother and some fans still liked him.  Not at all shocked.

 

I'm still suspect about Sansa's survival into next season.   I don't think Sansa's going to the Wall.  I can't see her heading South again.  It feels like the walls are closing in on her.   And keep in mind she's one of my favorite characters. 

 

GRRM's story doesn't really adhere to what reader are owed (or think they are) in terms of character pay off.   ASOIAF is a dark story, it always has been.   I think Shireen's awful demise is the tip of the iceberg in terms of cruel fates that await some of these characters.

 

All that being said, I'm still so glad this saga is finally being told.  GRRM was likely never to finish his own story so liberties and all, I'm totally onboard with D&D spoiling the bitter end.

[SeanC]

I'm still suspect about Sansa's survival into next season.   I don't think Sansa's going to the Wall.  I can't see her heading South again.  It feels like the walls are closing in on her.   And keep in mind she's one of my favorite characters. .

Sansa has a ton of story left to tell.  Indeed, the writers have been introducing new stuff in her most recent appearances, such as finding out about her brothers.  I can't see any reason to think she's going to die.

[nksarmi]

Sansa is a POV character in the next book and they have released chapters for her. I cant believe they would kill a POV character long before they are due.

[Pete Martell]

Theon is a POV character in the next book too and I don't know if he'll be around much longer (and on the show I will be somewhat surprised if he lives to next season).

 

I don't think Sansa will be killed yet, but I do feel like tying her so heavily to Winterfell is a bad omen for her character. I'm not sure if Baelish finding out about her brothers being alive will do her much good either, if or when he does.

[benteen]

I was enjoying this season very much.  BUt as the season finale is next week, I can't help but be disappointed with how the entire Northern storyline (not counting the Wall) has turned out.  It was easily the best part of ADWD and featured some of GRRM's best writing and large chunks of it have been either discarded and handled badly.  It makes me even more annoyed (and disturbed) that out of all the good stuff they had to choose from in ADWD, the only thing D&D seemed excited about was the propsects of having Sansa raped and Shireen burned alive.  Which tells me a lot about them.

 

Then you have comments like this from Weiss...

 

 “The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre, they were burning people alive on the beaches of Dragonstone and it’s really all come to this.

 

 

This was after he talked about how horrible the Shireen information was when they learned it from GRRM and how good it was from a story standpoint.

 

Uh, Weiss...the first time we see Stannis and Melisandre on the show they are burning WOODEN IDOLS, not people.  I would think he might remember that detail because, you know, he co-WROTE the episode.  But this kind of forgetting stuff isn't a surprise.  D&D never bothered to reveal that Joffrey was the one who tried to kill Bran.  But hey, plenty of time for Pod the Sex God and endless brothal scenes.

 

D&D clearly hated Stannis from the beginning yet go out of their way to defend someone like Tywin, a brutal man responsble for a ton of murders and rapes.  They gave little more than lip service to the concept of guest right and have ignored the taboo about kinslaying.  The fact that they've made people want to root for Ramsay after last night's episode is even more infuriating.  Not to mention making Ramsay, a guy who fighting ability is little more than a savage, a guy who can outthink Stannis.

[Advance35]

The fact that they've made people want to root for Ramsay after last night's episode is even more infuriating.  Not to mention making Ramsay, a guy who fighting ability is little more than a savage, a guy who can outthink Stannis.

 

Well people will root for whomever they want.  Both sides of the conflict are barely human, it's more a pick your poison type of situation and some choose Ramsay, I don't think that's anything the writers should be bashed for.

 

And I have to disagree with you about Ramsay.   He's a monster but a smart one.  He cooked up a way to psychologically obliterate another human being, his torture wasn't just torture, it was designed to take Theon apart a piece at a time and ground those pieces into shards.  Apparently it's something he does without Roose's knowledge.    I think Ramsay's is a preadator but a smart one IMO.

[Cheshrkat]

The showrunners can say "oh, Shireen is burned in the books" but unless they or GRRM explicitly say that Stannis is the one who gives the order, I'll remain convinced that it's the work of Selyse and Melisandre and the showrunners changed the plot because they hate Stannis and this version is more shocking, and as long as the end is the same (dead Shireen, dead Stannis/Sansa in Winterfell), they don't think it matters who actually burns the child or is raped by a Bolton. Book Stannis is at Winterfell with Theon/Asha and far away from Book Shireen, who he sees as his heir and the queen his followers must fight for if he dies.

 

So much this.  I'm just gutted by what the show has done, but I am also 100% sure that in the books Stannis will not be the one making the call on Shireen burning.  I see that entirely as a D&D adaptation choice.  I have to wonder now whether Stephen Dillane's obvious absence from the show promotion tour pre-season was related to not really wanting to talk about Stannis and his arc for Season 5!  (Liam Cunningham and Carice were everywhere - SD was noticeably a non-participant).

[nksarmi]

Theon is a POV character in the next book too and I don't know if he'll be around much longer (and on the show I will be somewhat surprised if he lives to next season).

 

I don't think Sansa will be killed yet, but I do feel like tying her so heavily to Winterfell is a bad omen for her character. I'm not sure if Baelish finding out about her brothers being alive will do her much good either, if or when he does.

I thought of Theon/Reek as well, but while there have been times when I felt so bad for him, I was hoping he would die, I don't think that will happen until at least season six.

 

If Stannis or Ramsey (or maybe both!) die in the next episode, I believe it will be only because they die early in the next book as opposed to their deaths coming at the end of the story.

[Bass90]

The showrunners can say "oh, Shireen is burned in the books" but unless they or GRRM explicitly say that Stannis is the one who gives the order, I'll remain convinced that it's the work of Selyse and Melisandre and the showrunners changed the plot because they hate Stannis and this version is more shocking, and as long as the end is the same (dead Shireen, dead Stannis/Sansa in Winterfell), they don't think it matters who actually burns the child or is raped by a Bolton. Book Stannis is at Winterfell with Theon/Asha and far away from Book Shireen, who he sees as his heir and the queen his followers must fight for if he dies.

Exactly, the end result is all that matters, apparently.

 

Ramsay's successful sabotage felt so contrived. At this point I'm starting to believe he's Azor Ahai, he can do anything. Give him some 50 good men and he could kill the white walkers easily.

 

Winds of Winter can't come sooner...

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bass90

[nksarmi]

I strongly suspect that the show runners would NOT have had Stannis standing there when Shireen burns if it doesn't happen exactly like that in the books.  Rather or not Stannis knows about it and approves is HUGE for his character.  It's a pivotal moment that defines his ENTIRE story.  The only person who I feel that the writers have reworked in this fashion is Jamie and I don't know if what I saw as Jamie's redemption arc was going to stick in the books.  And the path the show has him on is also interesting to me so I will wait and see how that plays out.

 

The death of Shireen is so big - I have to believe they would play that more or less how it played in the books.  Face it, Stannis is an unredeemable character and I think GRRM probably did it to him, not the show runners.

[SeanC]

I strongly suspect that the show runners would NOT have had Stannis standing there when Shireen burns if it doesn't happen exactly like that in the books.  Rather or not Stannis knows about it and approves is HUGE for his character.  It's a pivotal moment that defines his ENTIRE story.  The only person who I feel that the writers have reworked in this fashion is Jamie and I don't know if what I saw as Jamie's redemption arc was going to stick in the books.  And the path the show has him on is also interesting to me so I will wait and see how that plays out.

I really don't buy that.  Their take on Stannis has been different from the very beginning.  He really only started to act more like the book version this season, and even that was in retrospect just to make his swerve to burning Shireen look worse.

 

Unrelatedly, I'm wondering if the show isn't setting up Davos to get some version of his book story now.  He's headed to the Wall, and I strongly suspect that the point of Sansa being told that Jon is Lord Commander now is in order to motivate her to go there after escaping Winterfell, newly-armed with the information that her brothers are alive.  Once she's in a place to regroup (though she'll probably arrive to find Jon dead), looking for them would be an obvious item on her agenda (though I expect she'll also have to deal with Littlefinger's impending arrival), and Davos is assuredly done with Stannis at this point when he finds out, so he'd be a broken man in need of something to do.

[Advance35]

I strongly suspect that the show runners would NOT have had Stannis standing there when Shireen burns if it doesn't happen exactly like that in the books.  Rather or not Stannis knows about it and approves is HUGE for his character.  It's a pivotal moment that defines his ENTIRE story.

 

THIS.  So much this.   I don't think D&D ad libbed this.  They were originally not even going to include Shireen but GRRM told them too and I assume he told them why.   I don't think Stannis is going to be a fallen hero in the novels, I think he's going to be yet another person who would go to any lengths to get the Iron Throne.   His fanaticism and belief in his own divine right is well documented.   This wasn't that shocking to me.

[benteen]

With the writers committing fully to EVIL STANNIS, I really hope he doesn't now beome Sansa's latest captor/tormentor next season.

 

What's even more frustrating about Jaime's awful, waste of time misadventure in Dorne is that he isn't even close to breaking away from Cersei.  NCW has always done great work as Jaime but D&D have undercut his storyline at almost every turn.

[nksarmi]

I really don't buy that.  Their take on Stannis has been different from the very beginning.  He really only started to act more like the book version this season, and even that was in retrospect just to make his swerve to burning Shireen look worse.

 

Unrelatedly, I'm wondering if the show isn't setting up Davos to get some version of his book story now.  He's headed to the Wall, and I strongly suspect that the point of Sansa being told that Jon is Lord Commander now is in order to motivate her to go there after escaping Winterfell, newly-armed with the information that her brothers are alive.  Once she's in a place to regroup (though she'll probably arrive to find Jon dead), looking for them would be an obvious item on her agenda (though I expect she'll also have to deal with Littlefinger's impending arrival), and Davos is assuredly done with Stannis at this point when he finds out, so he'd be a broken man in need of something to do.

I don't know because I refuse to go back reread books 4 and 5, but I don't remember ever really like Stannis.  Ironically, the show version won me over this season just to pull the rug out from under me.  At any rate, I suspect the only way I will find out how this happens in book 6 is by reading comments on this board because as of right now I'm pretty sure I won't read it myself.  I might change my mind if there is a lot of praise for it among book readers, but I doubt it.

[nodorothyparker]

I think there's a real penchant among book readers to blame D&D for everything they don't like, like Shireen's burning.  But they're privy to a lot of things GRRM has coming.  He's written some really terrible things over the course of this series and this just feels like something he couldn't resist.

[SeanC]

I think there's a real penchant among book readers to blame D&D for everything they don't like, like Shireen's burning.  But they're privy to a lot of things GRRM has coming.  He's written some really terrible things over the course of this series and this just feels like something he couldn't resist.

I think there is definitely some of that, but Shireen being burned is not really a surprise to a lot of fans -- it's been a common fan theory since ADWD came out.  What is at issue is Stannis' role in it.

[nodorothyparker]

I understand that.  Since the book isn't out and there's no way to see for ourselves, I'm just not willing to immediately jump to the evil D&D screwing up the books again.  That very well may have happened.  But it very well may not be.

[GreyBunny]

D&D screwed up some things but I don't think they screwed up this, and up until last night I was a Stannis fan. 

As mentioned upthread, I think Stannis thinks he's the guy who is duty-bound to save the world and one life, even his daughter's, is a small price to pay for it...or so he thinks.  In the end I think the price will be much higher than he expected and that is part of what makes him a tragic character.

[Pete Martell]

With the writers committing fully to EVIL STANNIS, I really hope he doesn't now beome Sansa's latest captor/tormentor next season.

 

What's even more frustrating about Jaime's awful, waste of time misadventure in Dorne is that he isn't even close to breaking away from Cersei.  NCW has always done great work as Jaime but D&D have undercut his storyline at almost every turn.

 

I've seen some speculation that he will dump Cersei once he learns about Lancel. 

 

If that's the case, then I tend to wonder what the point of Ellaria's "don't let them tell you incest is wrong" speech is...is the show saying it's not really the incest, it's just wrong if you're involved with a "bad" relative?

 

If that's the case then maybe they're going to hook Jon and Dany up after all. Or Jon and Sansa.

D&D screwed up some things but I don't think they screwed up this, and up until last night I was a Stannis fan. 

 

I think where they screwed it up was the pacing. I could have believed he'd sacrifice Shireen, but instead of building it up they had a lull so we would be "shocked." Between that and the forced melodrama with Selyse, I ended up not caring. And if I don't care when a father burns his child alive, especially when up to this season they were two of my favorite characters, it really tells me how much the writing has declined.

[elzin]

Even if the Shireen thing happens exactly like that in the books (and let's be honest, not a lot has been entirely faithful lately), the showrunners still failed because they did not do a good job of convincing many of us that this was in-character for Stannis or a reasonable choice under the circumstances.

[nksarmi]

I think Ellara's speech at the end there to Jamie is one of the few times I can really look at something and say "people are right, that was a bad bit of writing."  But I am still hoping it makes sense at some point.  Because she didn't really say incest is cool - she just said morality changes - She and Oberyn were fine in Dorne but looked down upon in KL......then she said 100 years ago no one would have batted an eye at Cersei and Jamie IF they were Targs.

 

It was a "heart wants what the heart wants, even that which is bad for it" speech, but it was also a slam on how changing morality is which might somehow tie into a future decision to take down the FM or be a hint to something else.  But it was still odd.

[nodorothyparker]

I couldn't make heads or tails out of what Ellaria was trying to say beyond confirming that they know all about the twincest down in Dorne.  But they're willing to marry their heir to a product of it anyway because it seemingly suits their purpose, whatever that may.  That's definitely a writing issue.

 

I was spoiled for Shireen's death by the clip making the rounds online yesterday afternoon so I wasn't shocked or broken up about it like some viewers seem to be.  Once I thought about it, it sort of made sense within the framework of Stannis' story arc even if I don't think the show has done a tremendous job leading us to that point.  But yeah, when your reaction to a screaming child being burned alive by her religious fanatic parents and their resident witch is "yeah, that's sad," that's a writing issue too.

Edited June 8, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Pete Martell]

I think Ellara's speech at the end there to Jamie is one of the few times I can really look at something and say "people are right, that was a bad bit of writing."  But I am still hoping it makes sense at some point.  Because she didn't really say incest is cool - she just said morality changes - She and Oberyn were fine in Dorne but looked down upon in KL......then she said 100 years ago no one would have batted an eye at Cersei and Jamie IF they were Targs.

 

I didn't mean to imply she said incest is cool, but I did take it as a condemnation of the idea that incest is wrong. So if Jaime and Cersei break up then perhaps we will feel incest being a bad thing isn't the reason, which would make sense to me if some of their future power couples are going to be cousins, or uncle/niece, or whatever Jon is to Sansa or Dany once the truth is out.

[ulkis]

I didn't mean to imply she said incest is cool, but I did take it as a condemnation of the idea that incest is wrong. So if Jaime and Cersei break up then perhaps we will feel incest being a bad thing isn't the reason, which would make sense to me if some of their future power couples are going to be cousins, or uncle/niece, or whatever Jon is to Sansa or Dany once the truth is out.

Well cousins shouldn't be a big deal in ye old fake medieval times but I can't imagine either Jon or Sansa would wanna hook up with each other, no matter what.

[Danny Franks]

Exactly, the end result is all that matters, apparently.

 

Ramsay's successful sabotage felt so contrived. At this point I'm starting to believe he's Azor Ahai, he can do anything. Give him some 50 good men and he could kill the white walkers easily.

 

Winds of Winter can't come sooner...

 

The more I saw of Ramsay in the show and in the Telltale Games game, the more I realised that he's being written as the evil version of a Mary Sue. I don't like the term, but it really does seem to fit him, in that he's so evil and super competent, and always knows what's going on and always gets the best of people and just gets to be super awesomely vile and disgusting and get away with it. Its like an adolescent boy's worst fantasies, come to life.

 

I find him so tiresome as a character, that he has contributed in no small measure to me just having had enough of the show. I even stopped playing the game that I'd already paid for, because I was tired of him just winning, no matter what choices you made in the supposedly 'choose your own fate' story.

 

Seems like these writers have no clue how to write a threatening yet vulnerable villain. He's either omniscient and unbeatable, or he's a clearly flawed idiot with 'kill me' written on his forehead.

 

The stuff with Shireen just reinforces my belief that the show has been rendered down into a slog from one Shocking Dramatic Moment to the next. They're more interested in getting that reaction, two or three times a season, than they are in crafting a consistently entertaining show.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Constantinople]

I think Ellara's speech at the end there to Jamie is one of the few times I can really look at something and say "people are right, that was a bad bit of writing."  But I am still hoping it makes sense at some point.  Because she didn't really say incest is cool - she just said morality changes - She and Oberyn were fine in Dorne but looked down upon in KL......then she said 100 years ago no one would have batted an eye at Cersei and Jamie IF they were Targs.

 

It was a "heart wants what the heart wants, even that which is bad for it" speech, but it was also a slam on how changing morality is which might somehow tie into a future decision to take down the FM or be a hint to something else.  But it was still odd.

 

If Ellaria's chat with Jaime had a point, I think it was

 

• to try to disarm Jaime by convincing him she wasn't so bad and that she understood him.  Who know whether or not it works.

   

• to signal to viewers that Cersei is on her death list.  Ellaria said she didn't blame Myrcella and acknowledged that Jaime might be innocent.  Ellaria said nothing about Cersei.

 

I'm not saying this was the point, but it was all the sense I could make of it.

[SFoster21]

Comedown for Jon, you ask me.

[nksarmi]

I couldn't make heads or tails out of what Ellaria was trying to say beyond confirming that they know all about the twincest down in Dorne.  But they're willing to marry their heir to a product of it anyway because it seemingly suits their purpose, whatever that may.  That's definitely a writing issue.

 

I was spoiled for Shireen's death by the clip making the rounds online yesterday afternoon so I wasn't shocked or broken up about it like some viewers seem to be.  Once I thought about it, it sort of made sense within the framework of Stannis' story arc even if I don't think the show has done a tremendous job leading us to that point.  But yeah, when your reaction to a screaming child being burned alive by her religious fanatic parents and their resident witch is "yeah, that's sad," that's a writing issue too.

I don't know how this played out for most of the unsullied, but my fiancé said a couple of episodes back that when Stannis didn't kill Mel or send her back to the Wall at least for even suggesting that they burn Shireen that it was a bad sign.  And he was totally sitting there telling Davos to grab the girl and take her with him.  So they couldn't have done THAT bad of a job setting it up - he was expecting it more than I was.

[Pete Martell]

The more I saw of Ramsay in the show and in the Telltale Games game, the more I realised that he's being written as the evil version of a Mary Sue. I don't like the term, but it really does seem to fit him, in that he's so evil and super competent, and always knows what's going on and always gets the best of people and just gets to be super awesomely vile and disgusting and get away with it. Its like an adolescent boy's worst fantasies, come to life.

 

I think the game gets Ramsay right - he's just a lunatic. The show has so many different personas for him that go beyond characterization or even plot device and just suggest complete awe (like his awesome strategic and fighting skills, and his amazing lovemaking abilities when he isn't raping women). It's like they got a shiny toy and they don't want to give it up. It's also like he's what they wanted Joffrey to be but knew he couldn't be, because of canon even they couldn't break.

Well cousins shouldn't be a big deal in ye old fake medieval times but I can't imagine either Jon or Sansa would wanna hook up with each other, no matter what.

 

I wouldn't think so, but if it was for some dynasty-building arrangement, possibly. I'm not really sure how the show or the books want people to see their relationship.

[benteen]

I think there's a real penchant among book readers to blame D&D for everything they don't like, like Shireen's burning.  But they're privy to a lot of things GRRM has coming.  He's written some really terrible things over the course of this series and this just feels like something he couldn't resist.

 

I would agree with that.  I've defended them on some things.  Like the fact that Ramsay raping his bride comes from the books and was much worse there.  Or making Trant a pedophile.  They just gave Raff the Sweetling's disgusting attraction from the Mercy chapter to Trant for the purpose of adapting said storyline.  Those ideas came from the book and they were adopting them here.  But having Sansa be the one to get raped and having Stannis make the decision to burn Shireen (especially after propping him up for the first half of the season) is something I do blame them for.  And to me it says a lot about them that out of all the great stuff in the ADWD Nothern storyline, it's THOSE storylines that they were so eager to adapt.

 

Book Ramsay does have an impressive ability to play the long game.  As awful as it was, he showed a real committment to take up the Reek persona in order to get out of a bad situation for himself in ACOK.  But the character has never been this amazing military mind or fighter.  The tag "Super Ramsay" definitely applies when D&D write him.  Ramsay would never be able to outwit and defeat Stannis in battle.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[MrWhyt]

 But the character has never been this amazing military mind or fighter.  The tag "Super Ramsay" definitely applies when D&D write him. Ramsay would never be able to outwit and defeat Stannis in battle.

And he hasn't yet. It doesn't take a genius to know that an army marches on it's stomach and destroying it's supplies in the middle of winter would severly hamper it's effectiveness.

Edited June 8, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Cheshrkat]

It may have been logical and in character for show Stannis to make the decision to sacrifice his only daughter - I don't agree, and I now think the earlier scene where he claims her was nothing but a cheap bait and switch, but it's possible.  But I just don't see it happening that way in the books.  In the 5th book, when his army is so desperate that some men are resorting to cannibalism, he is urged by several of his men who are true Lord of Light believers to burn some no-name sacrifices, and if I recall correctly, he refuses.  (He only then relents and burns the men who were eating the dead, but for Stannis those men were dead men anyway and so it was not truly a sacrifice to him.)  Given how much more desperate he is in the books than he seems on the show, how do we get from him not burning random innocents to him burning Shireen?

 

Not to mention, Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre are far far away at Winterfell.  I do accept that Shireen will die in the books, as a sacrifice, and be burned.  But I think it will be by Melisandre and Selyse, after receipt of the Pink Letter, and not by Stannis.  I guess we'll find out one way or another when the next book comes out.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Cheshrkat

[Mya Stone]

Sansa is a POV character in the next book and they have released chapters for her. I cant believe they would kill a POV character long before they are due.

Just playing a bit of devil's advocate here:

Barristan is a POV character in the next book too.

 

Not that I think Sansa will die in the finale, far from it. But that's not the best argument to use. ;) 

[BlackberryJam]

Who's a bigger villain Stannis and Mel or Roose and Ramsay.

Seriously? Stannis made a terrible decision, which he did not do with glee, to kill a child in order to win a war. What a shitty and terrible choice to make, but really? REALLY? Ramsay kills and tortures because HE LIKES IT. Roose talks about rape the way he discusses the weather. Melisandre has always been a batshit crazy religious fanatic. And Stannis, kills a child to win a war (which is how he sees it right or wrong) is in the same sentence with those other three?

I never particularly liked Stannis except for his hilarious schoolmarm ways, but fuck. REALLY? How often in television and movies do we hear how the hero's decision to save one person, child, cat, dog, whatever, reverberates into a massive war that kills hundreds of thousands? If this works, if this is the absolutely only way to save the North, all of the small folk, all of the children and the precious pretty princess Sansa, is anyone going to argue that Stannis is on Ramsay level?

If I'm Stannis and I'm at the top of a cliff and I can either kill Shireen or save the rest of Westeros, children included, Shireen is going. Sorry honey. I cannot cope with the guilt of letting thousands die, not that I'd be good with killing my own child, but yeah, that's the choice I'd make. It wouldn't make me Ramsay Fucking Bolton.

[magdalene]

 

Who's a bigger villain Stannis and Mel or Roose and Ramsay.

He isn't worse than Ramsay but he is just as bad. To be able to watch and listen to your own child being burned to death (being burned alive is a horrific death, one of the most painful deaths you can suffer), a brutal death that you have ordered, you have to have evil in your heart.  And Melisandre was smiling while Shireen burned and screamed. That bitch got off on it.