Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Oscirus]

Perhaps Stannis captures Ramsay and Roose just doesn't care?

 

He would still have to do something about it or appear to look weak. When Roose betrays Ramsey it's going to be something a bit more ... permanent.

 

No argument there, but I think Roose is going to turn on Ramsay rather than the other way around.

 

I agree. Roose is smarter and more covert with his activities.  Ramsey, you can see coming from a mile away. While he might commit some outlandishly heinous acts, he's not at all a long term competent villain.

 

Stannis's death means the death of the baratheon house on the show. From everything we've been shown, I don't think the show wants to do that.

 

I should also point out that Tommen is a little brother, has been aged up, and became more central in a season where the WW are actually getting a move on, when it's been made precedent that a mother might freeze up when seeing (a zombie who reminds her of) her child...just saying :P

 

That's bloody brilliant. I never considered that but now that you bring it up...

Edited June 3, 2015 by Oscirus

[Avaleigh]

Would Shireen's kidnapping cause a reaction like that from Selyse? I figured she was responding to something happening to Stannis but now with the speculation that Ramsay kidnaps someone from Stannis's camp I'd say that Shireen probably best fits the bill. I can't really see Mel getting kidnapped unless she wanted to be for some reason. Selyse seems like she's witnessing the horror so I don't think it's her. 

I am starting to think Myranda lets Sansa out. She is supposed to be in that episode and I figure Ramsay will then kill her. 

I can see this happening too. I'm trying to focus on thinking of ways for Ramsay to die because I'm hoping this is it for him. I like the death by kennel idea the best but the fire idea could be good too. I'd like Ramsay and Myranda to get locked in the kennel together if possible. 

 

I can see Myranda being punished by Ramsay though for letting Sansa out. Would Myranda really be that stupid though? She knows Ramsay better than anyone and last time we checked she wasn't completely deluded. 

 

If Sansa is pregnant (really, really hope that this isn't the case) I can see Myranda freaking out over that. I can also see Roose preferring to take his chances with the heir grandkid and the spare son it looks like he's going to have. If Sansa kills Ramsay maybe Roose will just not ask too many questions. 

 

Then there's the whole wildcard factor of Brienne. 

 

Exactly Roose is dispassionate, I think that's why Ramsay kind of revolts him, he enjoys torture too much, Roose doesn't enjoy ANYTHING, and that definitely makes him in my opinion far more dangerous and formidable, in the sense of its impossible to understand what drives him and what motivates him (therefore to anticipate/counter his actions) you have to analyze him like a robot, not like a human being, even a horrible monstrous human being. 

Even Theon says that Ramsay is a just shadow of his father so to me Roose is the big dog here and we haven't really seen him at his worst yet. So far he's killed Robb and he did some bad shit over in Harrenhaal but the latter of course was cut from the show so the main thing Unsullied viewers remember about Roose is that he betrayed Robb and is responsible for the existence of Ramsay. 

 

What happens though if somebody finally manages to make this guy truly angry? This guy scared the shit out of Robb in the books according to Robb, and Theon and Jaime both recognize that Roose isn't a guy to joke around with. I agree that it makes more sense for Roose to betray Ramsay but I can't think of what circumstances would work best.

 

I agree that Roose can't just do nothing if Stannis takes his legitimized son because he'd think that it would make him look weak. No way can these guys come to any sort of deal either so at least one is going to have to go. 

 

I can't see any way that Stannis survives this season. In order for the story to move on I feel like it's probably better for him to go. Out of all of the deaths that I think have the potential to really kickstart some action in the story for next season my candidates are Ramsay, Margaery, Loras, Olenna, Kevan, Balon, and Stannis. 

[Advance35]

I don't think Sansa has a killing personality at all, but if anything would prompt her to kill someone it would be to protect her own child. With White Walkers coming I am not sure if its smart for anyone to want to be in Winterfell in the next two seasons.  If anyone would make worthy wight chow it would be Ramsay. But then we would have to see his reanimated corpse instead.  I don't know what is worse

 

This I agree with on all counts.  I don't think Sansa will turn up pregnant (though I reserve the right to be wrong) but I think she would ultimately kill to protect herself or her child.   I also think she is a dead girl walking if she stays in Winterfell.   If she comes out on top in this Roose/Ramsay/Stannis war she'll be crowned Lady of Winterfell just in time for the White Walkers to come across the wall and seal her fate.

 

I think so too. He really has been way more prominent than Roose and people just hate him and are waiting for him to die. Look how long it took Joffrey and look how much talk and publicity the show has already gotten over him. I don't think he will last into season seven but he will be around for a good part of next year. Probably obssessively hunting down Sansa.  I don't know if I can handle looking at him and Euron. I was so hoping the Iron Born were gone.

I am starting to think Myranda lets Sansa out. She is supposed to be in that episode and I figure Ramsay will then kill her.  I am still curious why Selsye is wailing in the snow. Maybe Ramsay injures Stanni? I do agree the big battle won't be to next year.

 

My only problem with Roose is I've never gotten him.  He is disspassionate as described in this thread but that's always been my thing, he doesn't care about anything, he isn't motivated by anything, there's literally nothing to him.   It's chilling but ultimately (as displayed so far in the books) boring.   His reaction to victories as well as defeats, is the same.    I guess that's why I marginally prefer Ramsay as a villain.  He's a mad, rabid dog but he has goals and investment.  

 

Take away Winterfell he's going to be enraged, Sansa escapes from him he is going to be frothing at the mouth, he wants status and to be recognized as Warden of the North, he wants ownership of Sansa.   Sansa reminding him he's a bastard that's been legitamized by a bastard was a kick to the stomach for Ramsay, you could see it.   I don't think there is anything that could cause that kind of reaction in Roose, which makes him less of a character to me.

 

I also think that Ramsay has a high capacity for tactics in terms of how he deals with people both physically and psychologically.  One need look no further than Reek.   Based on Roose's displayed surprise in Season 3 he had know idea what Ramsay had turned Theon into over the course of numerous psychological attacks and physical torments.   I see Ramsay meeting his maker Mid to End of Season 6.

 

As for Selyse, it doesn't make any sense but my first thought was Shireen.  Hidden maternal instinct?  Like REAAAAALLLY hidden?  I think something bad is going to happen to Stannis and Shireen.

[blixie]

 

he doesn't care about anything, he isn't motivated by anything,

Oh he most definitely does care, in the way that all evolutionary beings care for their progeny to survive and flourish, and he wants more power than he had before, but not so much that it becomes a THING. I don't find him boring, I find him highly amusing in his cold calculus. He doesn't care for Ramsay, but Ramsay is the card he's been dealt, and he's not gonna kill his own kid....personally, but that kid has and will kill any legitimate heir he tries for. So Ramsay as legitimate heir it is! Until such time he grows tired of him. That's IT he reminds me of Ming the Merciless. 

 

I do think Michael McElhatton (lke Lena does with Cersei) lends Roose a bit more dimension, aka humanity (a very small bit), than Roose in the books possesses, and that has made his impatience with Ramsay even more entertaining, and gives the audience members like me false hope that he'll help set Ramsay  up for a fall.

[BlackberryJam]

I read something somewhere about the possibility of Sansa being pregnant and raising a child she doesn't want paralleling Cat having to raise Jon. It's an idea and makes the thought of a baby Bolton a little more exciting.

Brienne and Pod help Sansa escape and are hunting for Rickon and Bran and Sansa progresses in her pregnancy. She eventually gives birth under a weirwood tree in the snow and Bran communicates with her through the tree?

Edited June 3, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[OakGoblinFly]

That is what I've been getting off Roose, is that he's got Walda pregnant, and a dead Ramsay is his best outcome, he has a chance at a legit heir that isn't nearly as ribaldly sociopathic. But I am an unrepent fan of Roose, and his disgust for Ramsay (not that he's horrible monster, but that he's ostentatious horrible monster) amuses me both in the books and on the show. Never change Roose baby.

 

 

But Roose still needs Sansa to solidify his hold on the North ..... the only way he gets Sansa is through Ramsay.

[Blue Nocturne]

But Roose still needs Sansa to solidify his hold on the North ..... the only way he gets Sansa is through Ramsay.

 

 

Or poor Walda can find herself at the wrong end of some angry dogs and Roose can take Sansa to wife himself.

 

Have we gotten a Sansa/Roose only scene yet?  I would really love to see the two of them interact because, weirdly enough, Roose would probably treat her with more respect than anyone has since maybe Tyrion.  Yes, it would be traumatic for Sansa to hear Roose talk about betraying and murdering her brother with the same dispassion one talks about when deciding what contractor to select to remodel your castle, but I also think he would give her a no bullshit lay of the land.  Yes, we're marrying you for your claim. Yes we are about to be attacked by a very good military commander.  Yes, my son is a psychopath but he does need to not completely torture you to death for a while.  Yes, Littlefinger basically sold you off because he's a scheming bastard who will take advantage of any circumstance to hell with anyone he ostensibly cares about.

 

Hey if we're going to have a redux of season 2 (Sansa trapped in a hostile castle with Stannis Baratheon baring down), let's give Sansa/Roose a bit of a Tywin/Arya dynamic.

[nksarmi]

Or poor Walda can find herself at the wrong end of some angry dogs and Roose can take Sansa to wife himself.

 

Have we gotten a Sansa/Roose only scene yet?  I would really love to see the two of them interact because, weirdly enough, Roose would probably treat her with more respect than anyone has since maybe Tyrion.  Yes, it would be traumatic for Sansa to hear Roose talk about betraying and murdering her brother with the same dispassion one talks about when deciding what contractor to select to remodel your castle, but I also think he would give her a no bullshit lay of the land.  Yes, we're marrying you for your claim. Yes we are about to be attacked by a very good military commander.  Yes, my son is a psychopath but he does need to not completely torture you to death for a while.  Yes, Littlefinger basically sold you off because he's a scheming bastard who will take advantage of any circumstance to hell with anyone he ostensibly cares about.

 

Hey if we're going to have a redux of season 2 (Sansa trapped in a hostile castle with Stannis Baratheon baring down), let's give Sansa/Roose a bit of a Tywin/Arya dynamic.

If Sansa can stomach being Roose's wife, part of me thinks she'd be better off with him than Ramsey or Littlefinger.  I can even see him saying he had no intention of betraying Robb until it was clear he was going to lose (which I kind of believe).  You know the more I think about it, the more I believe Ramsey will be dead soon, but Roose is the kind of character I can see making it until the end. 

 

A Roose, a Jamie, and perhaps even an Euron (depending on how they portray him) could all be useful in a war against the Army of the Dead.  It's characters like Cersei, Ramsey, and even Littlefinger who have nothing to contribute to the fight that really matters that need to be taken out.  I don't expect this show to end with only good guys standing and all the bad guys dead, but I hope the villains that survive will be ones that were gritty enough to work with the likes of Dany and Jon at the Wall before they go back to scrapping for what scraps remain when all is said and done.

[Umbelina]

Littlefinger doesn't have "nothing to contribute" though.  He's the one manipulating all of these idiots to take each other out. 

[nksarmi]

Littlefinger doesn't have "nothing to contribute" though.  He's the one manipulating all of these idiots to take each other out. 

That's the point - his grand skill is lies and manipulation which means nothing when you face an Army of the Dead.  You can't lie your way out of that.  Roose, possibly Euron, and Jamie can all contribute strategy, battle techniques, etc... - that's what I mean, if villains must survive, I personally would prefer it be the ones who could fight along side Jon and Dany and help defend the realm.  I care nothing for a weasel like Littlefinger and I look forward to the day his lies and scheming catch up to him.  But that isn't the point - the point is that against the White Walkers, he has less than nothing to contribute (just like Cersei and Ramsay). 

[Advance35]

Isn't Ramsay a good warrior though?  I'm under the impression he is more than formidable in terms of physical combat, though I can't reference a particular scene on memory alone.

[Winnief]

That's the point - his grand skill is lies and manipulation which means nothing when you face an Army of the Dead.  You can't lie your way out of that.  Roose, possibly Euron, and Jamie can all contribute strategy, battle techniques, etc... - that's what I mean, if villains must survive, I personally would prefer it be the ones who could fight along side Jon and Dany and help defend the realm.  I care nothing for a weasel like Littlefinger and I look forward to the day his lies and scheming catch up to him.  But that isn't the point - the point is that against the White Walkers, he has less than nothing to contribute (just like Cersei and Ramsay).

 

Precisely.  There's nothing in LF's tool kit to prepare him for what's coming from Beyond the Wall.  Which is kinda why I'm hoping to see his reaction to it, before his inevitable demise.  Would wipe the smirk right off his face. 

[DigitalCount]

Isn't Ramsay a good warrior though? I'm under the impression he is more than formidable in terms of physical combat, though I can't reference a particular scene on memory alone.

Well, he used great siege tactics against the Ironborn in Winterfell, owned Yara's fighters in combat, and at least had enough cunning to pull off the Reek switch in book. In terms of plot armor I'd say that in the show only that of the three main characters is more effective. He fought a close quarters battle SHIRTLESS, and he doesn't even have the excuse of actually having vampire healing powers. Also, considering he's the anti-Jon, I want to say he has a good chance of surprising people with his longevity.

[nksarmi]

Isn't Ramsay a good warrior though?  I'm under the impression he is more than formidable in terms of physical combat, though I can't reference a particular scene on memory alone.

I would say that even if he could be a good fighter, he's way too batshit crazy to be good warrior whereas I see some Tywin in Roose and before it's over, they might need someone like that.  Basically I see Dany and Jon as the principal leaders who will fight this war, Tyrion as a possible strategist, Bran and maybe Mel if she is still around as your magic wielders, but we still need some leaders who can bring the kingdoms together and get solders to march North.  Even if Roose is considered a traitor by the North, in times of trouble, I'd expect men like him and Jamie, Randall Tarley and perhaps even Euron to be able to bring together the warriors of the 7 Kingdoms to face the greatest threat they have ever known. The likes of Ramsey, Cersei, the High Sparrow, and Littlefinger just can't do that in my opinion.

[magdalene]

Was anybody else thinking of Ned executing that poor deserter when they were all running away in terror in the last scenes? Oh, Ned, you were so short-sighted, naive and self-righteous. 

[Avaleigh]

Littlefinger won't be able to do a thing to help against the White Walker situation. He'd be like how Tommen is now. 

[Skeeter22]

Somebody has to supply men and food for the war. Littlefinger is hoarding food in the Vale, isn't he?

If they are going to succeed in fighting the White Walkers, there is going to have to be some organization and structure. Post-apocalyptic fiction usually features chaos because society lost. Politics will be more important than ever when everyone realizes what's coming.

[nksarmi]

Somebody has to supply men and food for the war. Littlefinger is hoarding food in the Vale, isn't he?

If they are going to succeed in fighting the White Walkers, there is going to have to be some organization and structure. Post-apocalyptic fiction usually features chaos because society lost. Politics will be more important than ever when everyone realizes what's coming.

That's what we have Tyrion and Varnys for - these are men who I believe care for others on some level.  What good is someone like LF who cares for no one but himself and would use every seed of grain as some kind of bargaining chip.  He just needs to die.

[Skeeter22]

I don't think Littlefinger cares even a tiny bit about anyone, but I doubt he'll still be standing at the end. Varys and Tyrion aren't exactly men of the people either. Varys was happy to destabilize the realm so he could install a teenager he's never met on the throne. It's a bit rich to pretend he has the moral highground over Littlefinger. Tyrion wanted to arm the mountain clans so they could rape and pillage the Vale more efficiently. Lysa wasn't going to suffer in that scenario, the smallfolk were.

[nksarmi]

I don't think Littlefinger cares even a tiny bit about anyone, but I doubt he'll still be standing at the end. Varys and Tyrion aren't exactly men of the people either. Varys was happy to destabilize the realm so he could install a teenager he's never met on the throne. It's a bit rich to pretend he has the moral highground over Littlefinger. Tyrion wanted to arm the mountain clans so they could rape and pillage the Vale more efficiently. Lysa wasn't going to suffer in that scenario, the smallfolk were.

Well in the books, Varys wants to empower a boy who he knows was raised to be honorable, just, and care about people.  On the show, Varys liked Ned (a man who was honorable, just, and cared about people) and did what he could to save him.  Varys has not had a chance to destabilize the realm on the show yet (other characters are doing that very well without his help - LF and Cersei seem to be having a contest in that department), but in the books, I think he thought that no matter how good Kevin was, it wasn't good enough. 

 

While we know very little about Varys, I believe he detests slavery as much as Dany does, looks his nose down a bit on people like Robert B who let their sex organs and lust lead them, and likely wants real change in Westerous, not just a different ruler.  And even if he doesn't have a prophesy that he believes in (and I suspect he does), he does seem to have a genuine interest in the "good of the realm" and I think in a post-zombie world, he would be a good man to help restore order.

 

Tyrion is a fast talker and does tend to want to keep himself alive and he certainly had no loyalty to the Vale in that situation, but for goodness sake, he lead the defense of KL in the Battle of the Blackwater.  Not for glory but just because he felt it fell on him to do.  And since I am almost positive it Tyrion who said that the little people only really care about good harvests and healthy children, I think he has a decent sense of how much the common people really think of nobles and such.  He may have been a carefree son of a rich man who didn't have a care in the world when this show began, but he has definitely transformed into something more.  And I believe he would care enough to ensure people got feed and had shelter (I miss this aspect of Jamie on the show, but I'm trying to let his Riverlands story go) in a post-zombie war.

 

Basically, I believe that while Varys and Tyrion like to play the game and do it well, both have enough to them to know when that needs to end.  I don't think a man like Littlefinger can ever end the con - can ever stop looking for the next thing he can use to his advantage. He is total scum - a user who cares for no one and offers no value to anyone.  I always follow his line of "I live to serve" with "myself" because that's who I think he is - not even his beloved Cat was safe from the fallout of his scheming, lies, and manipulation.

 

The one thing I will give LF is that he knows he is this way. I think Cersei is that way and doesn't even know it.  But I still think they both need to die and take Ramsey with them.

[Winnief]

I think the problem with LF was best summed up by Varys, "He would see the whole Realm burn if he could be King of the Ashes."  The man's so intent on using chaos to get ahead that he never stops to consider whether there will be anything left to rule once he's done. 

[benteen]

Two other people I'd like to recommend to fight the undead army...

 

Randyll Tarly.  Considered by many to be the best soldier in Westeros and in possession of the Valaryian greatsword Heartsbane.  Of course, you'd have to convince him the White Walkers were actually real first.  But he's definitely someone I want fighting that kind of war.

 

Qyburn.  He's a repulsive, evil human being but would be a good asset to fight against the White Walkers.  He has a certain knowledge of life and death (discovered through horrifying means) and something like FrankenGregor could actually be useful in the fight to come.

[Hecate7]

I don't think Littlefinger cares even a tiny bit about anyone, but I doubt he'll still be standing at the end. Varys and Tyrion aren't exactly men of the people either. Varys was happy to destabilize the realm so he could install a teenager he's never met on the throne. It's a bit rich to pretend he has the moral highground over Littlefinger. Tyrion wanted to arm the mountain clans so they could rape and pillage the Vale more efficiently. Lysa wasn't going to suffer in that scenario, the smallfolk were.

 

To be fair to Tyrion, he had to offer the tribesmen something. They were going to kill him. It wasn't the most high-minded of actions, but it was clever and it got him home.

[Oscirus]

whereas I see some Tywin in Roose and before it's over, they might need someone like that.

 

Someone like a supposed war strategist who got completely owned by war rookie Robb? I'd argue that Tywin is the last person that anybody should be emulating.

 

Littlefinger won't be able to do a thing to help against the White Walker situation.

 

I have a feeling that Littlefinger will make the situation worse through one of his slimy deals with the White Walkers.

 

 

 

 

[nksarmi]

Robb had a great instinct for battle, but Tywin was a strategist. I dont know if Roose could make a good difference in the war against the dead, but I see more potential for him than the likes of ramsey, cersei, or litttlefinger.

Randall Tarley could be an asset and depending on how they present euron, he might as well. I dont mind that some villans might survive till the end, i just hope its not the batshit crazy ones.

[Advance35]

Well if recent speculation is right and Randyll Tarly is being casted on the show then I think he is definitely going to play a role in how things shake out with the White Walkers.   I'm on record saying I feel like Littlefinger is going to live through this story (that's not to say I want him to) but I think he will.  Just things Martin has said through the years, not necessarily about the LF character but about the story in general.   If it's only the antagonist we find unlikeable but tolerable than I don't think it would qualify as a bitter/sweet ending.   It has to be those loved and those hated.

 

I thinks it''s very possible that the two most powerful factions in Westeros will be House Tyrell and House Arryn (LF, Sansa and Robin/Harry)  The only 2 Kingdoms with a solid food supply.   I don't think LF is going to be trying to hurt anyone during the Otherpocalypse.  I think he's going to be looking for the place that will give him the best chance at survival.  I don't think he'll do anything to contribute that isn't hands off.   Meaning I could see him negotiating food for protected passage or some such.

 

So when the Others get over the wall and sweep the land, The North dies first right, who's next from a geographical perspective, I'm thinking the regions furthest south will be the safest for a while at least right.  That means Highgarden and Sunspear?

[nksarmi]

Well if recent speculation is right and Randyll Tarly is being casted on the show then I think he is definitely going to play a role in how things shake out with the White Walkers.   I'm on record saying I feel like Littlefinger is going to live through this story (that's not to say I want him to) but I think he will.  Just things Martin has said through the years, not necessarily about the LF character but about the story in general.   If it's only the antagonist we find unlikeable but tolerable than I don't think it would qualify as a bitter/sweet ending.   It has to be those loved and those hated.

 

I thinks it''s very possible that the two most powerful factions in Westeros will be House Tyrell and House Arryn (LF, Sansa and Robin/Harry)  The only 2 Kingdoms with a solid food supply.   I don't think LF is going to be trying to hurt anyone during the Otherpocalypse.  I think he's going to be looking for the place that will give him the best chance at survival.  I don't think he'll do anything to contribute that isn't hands off.   Meaning I could see him negotiating food for protected passage or some such.

 

So when the Others get over the wall and sweep the land, The North dies first right, who's next from a geographical perspective, I'm thinking the regions furthest south will be the safest for a while at least right.  That means Highgarden and Sunspear?

Why do we assume the Others get over the Wall and sweep the land? I don't mean just you - I've seen this a lot and I was wondering if there was a spoiler out there that I am unaware of. I have always assumed the story will go North to the Wall to face the Army of the Dead rather than bring the White Walkers South. 

 

To me it's a matter of the story going full circle. We began at the Wall and Winterfell and I assume we will end there.  To me that doesn't mean there is a breach of the Wall and the North is doomed, but rather the Southern kings must go North like Robert did and help win the day.  If I'm wrong, I guess this could all end in Sunspear, but I'd kind of hate for the North to be destroyed.

 

***I too think LF could be the kind of cockroach of a character that makes it through to the end, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see his death.  I mean, in many ways, he started this mess and I still want justice for Ned (even if he was an honorable fool).

[Advance35]

That's a good point, there's know REAL spoiler that says the White Walkers will swarm the entire continent.  I guess I just assumed, which is always a mistake in this story.   Bringing all of the characters who will play a role North could make sense from a narrative perspective, a way to make it contained, after a fashion.   But good lord can the North take anymore punishment.   The Tyrells are lucky in Politics AND in an apocalypse.   No wonder they are endowed with so much hubris.   Everyone contributes to chaos but they are the only one's that don't have to pay the piper in any way.

 

I don't see LF getting everything or even anything he wants.  I could just see him in a dark corner somewhere ruminating over how things didn't go the way he wanted, and than sighing before saying "Back to the old drawing board."

[BlackberryJam]

I thought they were casting Randall Tarly partially so Heartsbane (another Valyrian steel sword) could come into play. Sure, there is plenty of other story there, but a Tarly at the Wall with a white walker killing sword? I'm down with it.

[John Potts]

Oscirus Someone like a supposed war strategist who got completely owned by war rookie Robb? I'd argue that Tywin is the last person that anybody should be emulating.

 

Why? Tywin won. Robb may have defeated him in every battle, but Tywin was ultimately the one left standing in the end (for a while, at least). If I was living in Westeros, I'd prefer somebody who ultimately prevents the Eternal Night than somebody who wins a few battles but can't prevent the Zombie Apocalypse. And yes, I suspect Roose might be a good candidate as Tywin Mk 2 (I can totally see him going "Well, we can only feed 5000 and we have 10000 here, so send the other 5 out covered in oil and we'll fire flaming arrows at them once they're among the Others" or something equally cold blooded but effective).

[Danny Franks]

Why? Tywin won. Robb may have defeated him in every battle, but Tywin was ultimately the one left standing in the end (for a while, at least). If I was living in Westeros, I'd prefer somebody who ultimately prevents the Eternal Night than somebody who wins a few battles but can't prevent the Zombie Apocalypse. And yes, I suspect Roose might be a good candidate as Tywin Mk 2 (I can totally see him going "Well, we can only feed 5000 and we have 10000 here, so send the other 5 out covered in oil and we'll fire flaming arrows at them once they're among the Others" or something equally cold blooded but effective).

 

Tywin lucked into pretty much everything that allowed him to win the war. Stannis killed Renly, earning the enmity of the Tyrells, and Tywin was able to step in (although in the show, it was apparently Littlefinger, because he's super awesome and smart and cool). Robb screwed up by being too honourable with his bannermen, whilst forsaking honour himself in terms of the agreement he made with the Freys. So Tywin was able to win Roose and Frey and get them to murder Robb.

 

For such a supposed genius badass, he did very little to forge his own success, just got lucky that his enemies were idiots. And yes, he still lost every battle to a teenage boy who had never been to war before.

 

I'm honestly glad I quit the show now, because all these spoilers and theories just depress me. Sansa pregnant from rape? Frankengregor the terrible fantasy cliché? Euron being the next badass villain, who may be even more depraved? I don't even know if any are true, but they all sound like a huge yawn.

[Umbelina]

Swimming against the tide here, but I prefer intelligence.  Littlefinger at least shows the sense to secure a food supply and hold on to it, as well as fresh soldiers.  Jon doesn't really have the chance to do that, being at the wall, and already with short supplies before Winter actually came, he, at lease, did ask for reinforcements.  The other wanna-be Kings went around willy-nilly destroying food supplies, and the fields that would have been the last harvest, worse, many did it deliberately, not because they had to.

 

Interesting point about how far south the White Walkers and their dead army will go, I too assumed they will  go as far south as they need to go, bringing winter with them, but who knows?  The decades of freezing temps and no sun would make it impossible for even Highgarden to grow food...maybe Dorne would survive.  Does anyone know if the lands across the sea have tales of winter?  I can't remember, and I'm rushing off to work and not quite awake yet.  Is "Winter" simply a Westeros thing, or could it be global?

[Funzlerks]

Was anybody else thinking of Ned executing that poor deserter when they were all running away in terror in the last scenes? Oh, Ned, you were so short-sighted, naive and self-righteous.

If Ned weren't there executing deserters, there would be a hell of a lot more of them because we now know very few of the Night's Watch are true believers. New events have proven how necessary it was. Why would he want more deserters if there is a giant zombie army threatening Westeros? Edited June 4, 2015 by Funzlerks

[blixie]

 

I have always assumed the story will go North to the Wall to face the Army of the Dead rather than bring the White Walkers South.

 

I think there will be a unification of the two stories: the southron Game of Thrones, and the Northern crisis of Winter/Others @ the Wall. Jon is the mythological hero warrior, and Dany the mythological leader/Queen and they'll join forces practically and politically if not outright romantically to defeat the Others and unite the 7 Kingdoms in a new Spring/Peace (or at least the hopes or Dream of Spring). Whether they will both be alive on the other side of the victory IDK, but I do think they are the generational representatives of Ice and Fire. 

 

I really do wonder how it's possible Varys doesn't know about Jon sometimes, I can see why Littlefinger might not put it together because he's so preoccupied with maximizing his opportunities in the moment, aka get rid of those who ARE in power Baratheon/Lannisters, and install his own handpicked ruling alliance. But Varys was at court when the ToJ all went down, and it seems that there are enough rumors of Rhaegar's attachment to/relationship w/ Lyanna (it started a Rebellion FFS) that it had to have at least crossed his mind. That Noble Honorable Ned Stark shows up with a baby after that incident. Like GURL work it out Varys.

[Blue Nocturne]

I really do wonder how it's possible Varys doesn't know about Jon sometimes, I can see why Littlefinger might not put it together because he's so preoccupied with maximizing his opportunities in the moment, aka get rid of those who ARE in power Baratheon/Lannisters, and install his own handpicked ruling alliance. But Varys was at court when the ToJ all went down, and it seems that there are enough rumors of Rhaegar's attachment to/relationship w/ Lyanna (it started a Rebellion FFS) that it had to have at least crossed his mind. That Noble Honorable Ned Stark shows up with a baby after that incident. Like GURL work it out Varys.

 

 

Even if it did cross his mind, there really was no reason not to take the Ned's bastard story at face value. Varys didn't really know Ned until his stint in Kings Landing so he could have easily thought Ned was a far more typical wayward younger son (didn't Varys make a comment to Ned in the first season about waiting and seeing what type of person he was). While Jon was raised in Winterfell, we don't know if Varys had enough little birds to know that Jon was essentially being raised as one of the family, Catelyn's disdain notwithstanding. Plus, Cat's disdain probably provided further cover.

 

Besides, Varys was probably so invested in his Aegon (apparently Dany in the show) plan (i.e. a plan he could control) that he may have developed a blind spot about a random bastard in the North.  One of the reasons I prefer to believe that Littlefinger did not know Ramsay's proclivities was because it further shows how little the southerners know (or care) what's going on north of the Neck.  It's out of sight out of mind until extenuating circumstances bring them south.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Blue Nocturne

[John Potts]

Danny Franks Tywin lucked into pretty much everything that allowed him to win the war.

 

So what? He could only beat the people he was opposing. War is a very Darwinian way of selecting the "right" ruler - he's the one that's still alive. Would Tywin have beaten Aegon the Conqueror/Julius Caesar/Alexander the Great? We can speculate all we like - the fact is, he didn't face any of them: those he did face, he defeated (or co-opted, like the Tyrells). Hell, even before his fateful trip to The Twins, Robb said "I've won every battle - but I'm losing this war": even without the Red Wedding, Tywin probably would have won (Fabian Tactics have a long, if not particularly honourable, history).

[FemmyV]

 

I really do wonder how it's possible Varys doesn't know about Jon sometimes, I can see why Littlefinger might not put it together because he's so preoccupied with maximizing his opportunities in the moment, aka get rid of those who ARE in power Baratheon/Lannisters, and install his own handpicked ruling alliance.

 

Until now, there's been no talk of Ned Stark's Bastard in the south. Sam sent out Jon's letters, asking for help, just two episodes. Give it a little more to let the news get out, about who's now commanding the Night's Watch. Tyrion doesn't know yet, but when he finds out, I'm sure Varys will, shortly after.

[blixie]

I wasn't talking about knowing Jon is commanding the NW, I was talking about Vary's knowing R+L = J.I just feel like both Littlefinger and Varys know EVERY DAMN THING except these couple of things the plot decides they can't know, to make it work better. I'm more comfortable with a characterization of Varys who at least suspects, but has chosen to ignore it because he's already vested in other options, and it's not known by the realm at large, and is thus no possible threat to the options he has in play.

[Blue Nocturne]

You know who might be the perfect person in the show to drop knowledge about R + L =J?  Doran.  My Dornish geography is rusty, but I can picture a scene where Doran tells a version of the Tower of Joy story to Jaime. He could also use the story to play on Jaime's insecurities regarding his time in the Kingsguard: he's considered shit for saving the realm from the Mad King while Arthur Dayne is considered one of the finest knights that ever lived despite the fact that his dying act was to forcibly stop a man from rescuing his kidnapped dying sister. Then, once he has Jaime eating out of the palm of his hand, he could note how weird it was that the Arthur Dayne and the rest were guarding a girl in a tower while their king had no one but him, a green arrogant boy, to protect him.

 

Such a scene would do quite a bit to establish Doran's status as a player, and salvage the thrown together Dornish story this season.

[Danny Franks]

So what? He could only beat the people he was opposing. War is a very Darwinian way of selecting the "right" ruler - he's the one that's still alive. Would Tywin have beaten Aegon the Conqueror/Julius Caesar/Alexander the Great? We can speculate all we like - the fact is, he didn't face any of them: those he did face, he defeated (or co-opted, like the Tyrells). Hell, even before his fateful trip to The Twins, Robb said "I've won every battle - but I'm losing this war": even without the Red Wedding, Tywin probably would have won (Fabian Tactics have a long, if not particularly honourable, history).

 

So the oft put forward claims that he's some sort of mastermind are completely spurious. Nothing that happened was instigated by him, he was just able to take advantage. Quite a lot like he did in Robert's Rebellion as well, hiding in Casterly Rock until the war was won, and then swooping in at the end to try and claim the glory. Sure, Tywin was the best of a bad bunch of tactical minds, hardly something for him to crow about like he did. What, he was able to outwit people like Ned Stark? Hardly worth bragging about.

 

In my view, the truth about Tywin was his arrogant, blinkered refusal to see Tyrion as an asset. And it was also his undoing, when he died in complete ignominy, with an arrow in the guys while sitting on the toilet. He was as much a fool as the rest of them, in his own way.

[nksarmi]

I wasn't talking about knowing Jon is commanding the NW, I was talking about Vary's knowing R+L = J.I just feel like both Littlefinger and Varys know EVERY DAMN THING except these couple of things the plot decides they can't know, to make it work better. I'm more comfortable with a characterization of Varys who at least suspects, but has chosen to ignore it because he's already vested in other options, and it's not known by the realm at large, and is thus no possible threat to the options he has in play.

Then again, maybe the show will use Varys to reveal this fact.  Varys was already in KL working his way up when R+L would have happened.  And he is the master of whispers - I can totally see him having heard the tale.  Perhaps he is waiting until he talks to Dany face to face to tell her that her father had two wives and she has a nephew out there that could help complete her reign.  Hell, if Tyrion is a product of J and A - he probably knows that as well.

 

And by the way, as much as we've talked about the whitewashing of Tyrion - wouldn't the ultimate whitewashing be making him the bastard son of J and A?  That would remove the "no one is as cursed as a kinslayer" burden from his shoulders and practically exonerate him completely of his murder of Tywin (his life-long oppressor who hated him and saw him as a symbol of his own failure and who would have loved to disown him if he could).

[FemmyV]

I wasn't talking about knowing Jon is commanding the NW, I was talking about Vary's knowing R+L = J.I just feel like both Littlefinger and Varys know EVERY DAMN THING except these couple of things the plot decides they can't know, to make it work better.

 

No one in Westeros is going to get the equation R + L = J until they first know and care there is a J, secondly know WHEN Ned brought J home, and only then, if they further speculate L was knocked up. WE, readers and sullied, have the information that Ned made a special promise to L, and IIRC, that L had some sort of infection that may have been associated with childbirth, but no one in Westeros knows that except maybe two other characters (Jojen & Meera)  not on screen and 1 other, who has yet to be introduced

 

Jon Snow probably was completely unknown about to most of Westeros, and for those who did, outside of the Stark family, nothing but an obscure footnote. Until he became Commander and started sending out letters, asking for help.

Edited June 5, 2015 by FemmyV

[MadMouse]

Tywin is not a brilliant battlefield commander but a ruthless political strategist. What are his most notable achievements?

 

Wiping out the Reynes and Tarbecks. The World book show he declared them criminals after peace had been made and went after them behind his father's back. He beat Lord Tarbeck and his household knights in "battle" then destroyed their keep. Roger Reyne led two thousand men out numbered greatly and was beaten. Then Tywin floods Castamere and kills hundreds of innocents.

 

The Sack of Kings Landing. Stays out of the war then decides to sack the poorly defended capital and orders the murder of the royal family. Sorry his lie about Elia is just that a lie. She was part of the hit list. He just doesn't want to admit how much of a political disaster that was for his family.

 

War of the Five Kings. Completely underestimates Robb Stark. Falls for a feint that leads to the rout at the Battle of Green Fork. Won zero battles against Robb in the field. Wins the war by giving the OK to break guest and kill his enemies at a wedding.

 

Then look at the consequences of these moves. All of them benefited him in the short term sure. But both of his moves against the Martells and Starks have caused political chaos in the long term for his family.

 

[mac123x]

So the oft put forward claims that he's some sort of mastermind are completely spurious. Nothing that happened was instigated by him, he was just able to take advantage.

 

Brings up a point I've wondered about:  the letters he was sending when he told Tyrion that "some wars are won with a quill and paper."  One was obviously to Walder Frey setting up / approving the Red Wedding.  Was there another to Sybil Westerling nee Spicer?  (Robb's wife Jeyne's mother).

 

Jaime has a discussion with her after Riverrun surrenders.  She says Tywin promised marriages for her children, that her daughters would get lords or heirs for husbands, and her son would get Joy Hill (Jaime's natural cousin) as part of the deal she made with Tywin.  My question is, what was Sybil's part of the bargain?  What service did she render to Tywin to merit this "reward"?

[Blue Nocturne]

My question is, what was Sybil's part of the bargain?  What service did she render to Tywin to merit this "reward"?

 

I think Sybil's job was to ensure that Jeyne never got pregnant. She would serve Jeyne moon tea every night, but called it a fertility potion.

[InsertWordHere]

Then again, maybe the show will use Varys to reveal this fact.  Varys was already in KL working his way up when R+L would have happened.  And he is the master of whispers - I can totally see him having heard the tale.  Perhaps he is waiting until he talks to Dany face to face to tell her that her father had two wives and she has a nephew out there that could help complete her reign. 

I've been thinking for a while that they will take Varys' ADWD speech about Aegon and change it up to be about Jon. 

 

“He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them." Kevan, ADWD

 

Now obviously a lot of the specifics there don't apply to Jon, but Varys could talk about Jon learning to lead men, being elected by his peers, fighting the real enemy blah blah blah. Even though it doesn't make sense for Varys to support Jon, a man of the Night's Watch, they do things differently on the show.

 

Imagine if he says this right before or right after "For the Watch" is shown.

 

Or I'm wrong and they keep the speech and make it all about Dany. Either way, if the ADWD epilogue makes it to the show, I think it's going to be a pretty cool moment, especially on the heels of Tyrion's "Varys is one of the only people I trust  in this world."

Edited June 4, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[magdalene]

If Ned weren't there executing deserters, there would be a hell of a lot more of them because we now know very few of the Night's Watch are true believers. New events have proven how necessary it was. Why would he want more deserters if there is a giant zombie army threatening Westeros?

My point was that if Ned had just listened to that poor boy instead of hacking his head off they would have known sooner about the threat  the White Walkers and their zombonis posed - and maybe started to plan how to fight them.

[The Mormegil]

Why do we assume the Others get over the Wall and sweep the land? I don't mean just you - I've seen this a lot and I was wondering if there was a spoiler out there that I am unaware of. I have always assumed the story will go North to the Wall to face the Army of the Dead rather than bring the White Walkers South. 

 

 

As far as we know the Wall contains magic that doesn't allow White Walkers to pass. If this is true and  the Wall stays standing then there is no need for the Armies of the South to go North.

 

All the Wildlings still north of the wall end up dying but the 7 Kingdoms themselves are in no danger unless the Others develop ship building.

 

For there to be a threat to the 7K's there has to be a breach in the Wall, maybe not physically but certainly magically.

[Constantinople]

My point was that if Ned had just listened to that poor boy instead of hacking his head off they would have known sooner about the threat  the White Walkers and their zombonis posed - and maybe started to plan how to fight them.

 

From the pilot

 

Will (to Ned): I know I broke my oath. And I know I’m a deserter. I should have gone back to the Wall and warned them. But I saw what I saw. I saw the White Walkers. People need to know. If you can get word to my family, tell them I’m no coward. Tell them I’m sorry.

 

After the execution

 

Bran: Is it true he saw the White Walkers?

Ned: The White Walkers have been gone for thousands of years.

Bran: So he was lying?

Ned: A madman sees what he sees.

 

Later on, during the feast, Ned and Benjen chat.

 

Ned: The boy I beheaded. Did you know him?

Benjen: Of course I did. Just a lad. But he was tough, Ned. A true Ranger.

Ned: He was talking madness. Said the Walkers slaughtered his friends.

Benjen: The two he was with are still missing.

Ned: A wildling ambush.

Benjen: Maybe. Direwolves south of the wall. Talk of the Walkers. My brother might be the next Hand to the king. Winter is coming.

Ned: Winter is coming.

[nksarmi]

As far as we know the Wall contains magic that doesn't allow White Walkers to pass. If this is true and  the Wall stays standing then there is no need for the Armies of the South to go North.

 

All the Wildlings still north of the wall end up dying but the 7 Kingdoms themselves are in no danger unless the Others develop ship building.

 

For there to be a threat to the 7K's there has to be a breach in the Wall, maybe not physically but certainly magically.

I'm not so sure about that - the Wall was built using magic but that could be a matter of constructing the Wall, not how it functions.  It is also clearly possible for a wight to pass because one did.  The fact that the Wall was built and the White Walkers haven't been seen for thousands of years could be a coincidence or it could be that they were sleeping or biding their time or any other number of things (Caster was leaving his male children for them or several years it seems).  It seems as if the White Walkers are currently in their home and no one knows why they attacked the first time (8,000 years ago).  Maybe this is part of the mythology GRRM still plans to explain. 

 

Since the Children of the Forest came before the First Men and hunted with dragon glass it seems likely that they were natural enemies of the White Walkers long before the time of man began in Westerous.  They were last recorded 6,000 years before Bran meet one, but they still clearly lived in the land beyond the Wall all this time without man knowing.  Perhaps the White Walkers just didn't like the idea of man coming to Westerous and populating so much so they tried to whip them out before they banded together to fight them back?

 

If that's the case, perhaps the Wildlings became too populated beyond the Wall and the White Walkers decided to reduce their numbers a bit.  Since no one knows why they fought and killed and destroyed the first time, maybe it won't make any sense the second time either.  But I don't necessarily think the Walkers can't breech the Wall (even if they have to use the Army of the Dead to do it) - I just think that ultimately, the story will try to move people North to fight them rather than have Northerners run South until they all band together down in Dorne lol. 

 

Of course, I could be wrong - season six and seven could be two years of key characters running South as Winter expands to the whole of Westerous (which frankly would be eerie and scarier than my ideas) and the story could still finish with key characters going back to where they belong after the war is won (Dany and Tryion in King's Landing, Arya walking away to become "a girl," Sansa and Rickon - and maybe his wife Shirleen? - returning to Winterfell, and Jon going North to rebuild the Wall and the Night's Watch).  But of course, that would be something that resembles a "happy ending" and this is GOT so it's doubtful though I do hope a Dream of Spring means some signs of hope and restoration.