Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[nksarmi]

I don't know what to think about Stannis, but what I hope happens is that he defeats the Boltons and wins King Landing at some point before Dany gets back.  I hope by that time he and Dany decide to work together to defeat the White Walkers and he dies in battle at the end.  I don't expect him to live, but I want him to die a king.

[blixie]

 

So now I'm speculating that in addition to taking Jeyne's place, Sansa will take over for Lord Manderly as well - assuming she and Theon escape Winterfell, I feel as though Theon will have to tell her that her younger brothers are still alive.  When she meets up with Stannis, I think she promises him the Northern support on the condition that he finds Bran and/or Rickon and returns them to her (the equivalent of Wyman's "bring me my liege lord" compromise).  Davos can then seek out Osha and Rickon next season.

 

I like this idea, but I'm still pissed I had watch Sansa get raped and I don't get to see the Bolton's eating Frey Pies.

[Winnief]

I don't know what to think about Stannis, but what I hope happens is that he defeats the Boltons and wins King Landing at some point before Dany gets back.  I hope by that time he and Dany decide to work together to defeat the White Walkers and he dies in battle at the end.  I don't expect him to live, but I want him to die a king.

 

I just don't want to see him outlive Shireen.  :(

[SeanC]

My revised thoughts on each plotline, as of episode 6:

 

1.  The Wall - obviously unaffected.

2.  Braavos - while this plot could perhaps be a bit more exciting, it's solid stuff, and since we've gotten a bit more of it I'll rank it higher.

3.  Tyrion/Joran - the scene about Mormont's death was nice.

4.  Meereen - unaffected.

5.  King's Landing - this plot is really not getting any smarter as it goes on (and why to the Tyrells seem to have no soldiers of their own?  We see a bunch of them riding with Olenna, but they're nowhere to be found anywhere else).

6.  Winterfell - Sansa season 2 plot, now with more rape.

7.  Dorne - boy, did this go south quickly.  What a disaster on pretty much every level, even on a production level, where this show is generally reliable.

[Happy Harpy]

It definitely seems like Olenna is going to make a deal with the High Septon, I just can't decide if Loras is going to have to suffer a Walk as well. 

Gayness seems to be the highest offense in the nutcases' book (the scene at the brothel stressed it imo) so I think that Loras risks death. But a Walk is an interesting idea, especially after the impromptu High Septon one. The fact that both men and women are submitted to it would rid the "big one" of its most disturbing dimension in my eyes. It would be an improvement from the books, even though the crowd's reaction and all the other disturbing sides of it will probably be there.

 

Regarding the speculation that Cersei had the snake and necklace sent to herself in order to get Jaime out of her hair--how would she know that Jaime would volunteer? How would she know that he'd only bring one guy with him? It seemed like it was all Jaime's idea. Maybe she wants him to think that but it's still counting on him doing an awful lot that she wouldn't have been able to guarantee.  

I didn't believe in it until this episode, but L.Headey's facial expression and the way she had Cersei say that she didn't know when Jaime would be back made it a possible option in my mind. Moreover, there's her line about the two pendants, whereas IIRC there's a third, Sansa's - obviously, she didn't wear this necklace when she left the wedding and Cersei could have gotten it back from Sansa's personal stuff afterwards.

Cersei knows very well how to manipulate Jaime, she has their whole life imo. She had to know how he'd react after the mother of all guilt trips she just gave him. And it would also explain the -imo- rather un-Jaime like dialogue in 5x01 about "the others" out to get them: aware of Jaime's state of mind, Cersei knew where to attack. And conveniently, the box appeared in the next episode.

Note that she is the one saying that she can't send an army because it would be an act of war. In the facts, she hereby refuses him troops. She then tells him he's going "alone", it could be only because she thinks it's ridiculous, it also could be that she wants to check he indeed won't go with a significant amount of forces.

She couldn't be certain of anything, but she didn't risk anything either to bait him and see if he took it. For her, it's a win-win. Either Jaime fails and she has avenged her father, since I personally believe she resents him as much as Tyrion and feels betrayed. Either Jaime makes it, but she gets her daughter back.

 

Another thing that makes me think it's a possibility is the difference between books and show when it comes to 1) Cersei's promiscuity 2) Jaime's feelings for Cersei at this point. I don't believe that an alleged relationship with Lancel would be enough for Jaime to wash his hands off Cersei in the current situation of the show. He feels something for Brienne, I think, but is pretty much still crazy about Cersei. I can't see him believe what is said about her, especially since he won't hear it from Tyrion's mouth. But understanding that Cersei sent him to his death, using his love for her, their daughter and his aspirations to be better man than he used to be? Now, this would be a betrayal powerful enough to provoke a 180. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[nksarmi]

I just don't want to see him outlive Shireen.  :(

I am not convinced she is going to die.  I understand why people fear it, but I want to believe he would never allow it.  I'm fine if his wife dies though.

[Cheshrkat]

I like this idea, but I'm still pissed I had watch Sansa get raped and I don't get to see the Bolton's eating Frey Pies.

 

Until the episodes air and dash my hopes each week, I am going to live in a world where Sansa/Theon kill Ramsay and then Sansa uses her loyalist connections in the kitchen to arrange for Roose to be served Bolton pie.  And Stannis lives - I don't want to contemplate his death.  (Until it happens.)

[Holmbo]

I can understand why people are angry with the show for bringing Sansa into a position of tormented victim again. It is very upsetting to see. But I'm personally not mad about it because Sansa doesn't have any book story at this point. The books are putting all the stark characters at the wayside for the moment and the show suffers because of it.

That said if Sansa is only once again gonna be a passive character this entire season I will agree with the pissed of fans.

[Minneapple]

I don't agree with everything in this piece, but this part sums up my main issue with the latest rape on GoT:

 

Game of Thrones is Gross, Exploitative and Totally Out of Ideas:

 

 

And then there’s the composition of the scene, as a camera slowly closes in on Theon’s sobbing while Sansa’s painful cries are heard in the background. Not only was this habitually and emotionally tortured female character thrown into an unnecessary rape scene, she was put there to reflect the Emotional Journey of one of the most useless side characters. The whole point of that shot seemed meant to convey that Theon Was Sad and Everything Is Awful. We didn’t need an arbitrary rape scene to remind us of that.

 

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-is-gross-exploitative-and-totally-out-1705235364

 

I have this really bad feeling that Sansa's rape is going to be used as a plot device for Theon's character. Which is horrible in so many ways.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Minneapple

[Avaleigh]

There's an interview in Entertainment Weekly where Sophie gives her thoughts on episode 6 and she basically makes it seem like she was surprised at how awful Ramsay is. She sensed that he was dark but she didn't realize that she was getting in bed with a full blown psychopath until it was too late. She also mentions that Sansa was initially more frightened of Roose than she was of Ramsay because she knows that Roose killed her brother. 

 

From the article:

And then there is the scene described in the production breakdown as “romance dies.” Sansa’s wedding night in episode 6. 

When I read that scene, I kinda loved it. I love the way Ramsay had Theon watching. It was all so messed up. It’s also so daunting for me to do it. I’ve been making [producer Bryan Cogman] feel so bad for writing that scene: “I can’t believe you’re doing this to me!” But I secretly loved it.

 

I think fans’ reactions will be pretty simiilar: “How can they do this to Sansa?”
I completely agree with them! After Joffrey, she’s escaped him and you think she’s going to lose her virginity to a guy who’s really sweet and takes care of her and she’s thrown in with a guy who’s a whole lot worse. But I kind of like the fact she doesn’t really know what a psycho he is until that night. She has a sense, but she’s more scared of his father. And then that night everything gets so f–ked up.

 

Have you read the book version?
No. Doesn’t Theon join in or something?

 

Yup.
Yeah, like, thank God that didn’t happen! But it will be interesting to film.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-wedding

 

This give me hope that we aren't going to have any of Theon being forced to join in. 

[Shanna]

I can understand why people are angry with the show for bringing Sansa into a position of tormented victim again. It is very upsetting to see. But I'm personally not mad about it because Sansa doesn't have any book story at this point. The books are putting all the stark characters at the wayside for the moment and the show suffers because of it.

That said if Sansa is only once again gonna be a passive character this entire season I will agree with the pissed of fans.

They could have easily rewritten the plot to include Sansa, keeping awesome stuff like Frey pie and ghosts of winterfell randomly killing people, though. They chose to go this way instead. They could have had Sansa be smart and work with manderlys on the sly. They could have drawn out the engagement while other stuff was happening. They could have left theon with his hero moment before anything happened.

They didn't have to do this and they did it for shock value. I'm not convinced we will get any interesting Sansa out of it at this point.

[benteen]

The frustrating thing is with all the great moments in ADWD's Northern storyline, it was Sansa (who wasn't even IN ADWD, let alone in the North), being raped that D&D apparently looked forward to doing the most.  The Northern lords have been completely forgotten about after Season 1, with the only ones portrayed either being disloyal (Karstark) or traitors (Bolton).  The only ones who seem to remember are the smallfolk and we got Lyanna Mormont's letter as well.  But D&D's disinterest in the North until this season has weakened a GREAT storyline from the books.

 

This also would have been a great chance to utilize the Freys again.  They could have had a contingent of House Frey soldiers led by some random Frey brat bolstering Roose's garrison at Winterfell.  It would have shown where his only support came from and given a chance for the North to strike back at the two Houses most directly responsible for Robb and Cat's death.  But the Riverlands continue to be ignored even worse than the North.  Now, if Sansa emerges from this fully taking up the Wyman Manderly role, it could save the storyline.  But I have no confidence in D&D to portray Sansa as anything more than a victim.  Not to mention to our knowledge, Rickon and Osha haven't taken a contrived trip to Skagos.  And would the show really send Brienne beyond the Wall to find Bran?  Jaime going beyond the Wall to find Bran would be interesting but Jaime needs to stay within distance to Cersei I believe (even if that means being in the Riverlands).

 

Cogman mentioned that Sansa made her choice to go to the North.  That might be true but I seriously doubt Littlefinger would have given her a real choice in the matter.  Sansa might have made her own choice but they chose to portray her in the scene last night as a victim in every way.

 

Getting back to an earlier comment...yeah, I just don't see TV Ellaria (Lady Dumbass) or the Sand Snakes being able to hold their own in King's Landing.  The Dorne storyline have never been good either on screen or page but they really should have kept Arianne around.

[Winnief]

The frustrating thing is with all the great moments in ADWD's Northern storyline, it was Sansa (who wasn't even IN ADWD, let alone in the North), being raped that D&D apparently looked forward to doing the most.  The Northern lords have been completely forgotten about after Season 1, with the only ones portrayed either being disloyal (Karstark) or traitors (Bolton).  The only ones who seem to remember are the smallfolk and we got Lyanna Mormont's letter as well.  But D&D's disinterest in the North until this season has weakened a GREAT storyline from the books.

 

 

Not to mention that Frey Pie, would have had just as much shock value and been a good "It's HBO!" moment as well, while being something Book Readers had been *drooling* to see for years now. 

 

So the Knights of the Vale will be headed up North soon right?!?  All roads lead to Winterfell and I bet Brienne's gonna send word to Jaime to come join her there.  However, if/when Baelish does get there, I don't think it's gonna turn out so well for him, given the prophecy of how the maiden slays the Titan in the snow castle.  It's safe to say that Daznak's Pit and the Walk of Shame take place in Episode 9, the Dance of Dragons, so I'm thinking that Jon's stabbing, (and possibly resurrection) must take place in Episode 10...but I feel like the Big Reveal is happening this season as well, and that might be Episode 9 too, given that Jon is another 'dragon'. 

 

Man it seems like the final episodes will by definition have to be super crowded.  Frankly I think if they were going to change so many book details anyway, they also could have rearranged things to space out some of the larger events out more through the season as well.

[BlackberryJam]

I don't agree with everything in this piece, but this part sums up my main issue with the latest rape on GoT:

 

Game of Thrones is Gross, Exploitative and Totally Out of Ideas:

 

 

 

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-is-gross-exploitative-and-totally-out-1705235364

 

I have this really bad feeling that Sansa's rape is going to be used as a plot device for Theon's character. Which is horrible in so many ways.

 

Uhm. No. Sorry, but that's stupid. The purpose of Theon crying was to make Theon the voice of the audience. Fuck, it's not that hard. Tyrion was the voice of the audience ripping on Dany's mad ruling skillz. Theon's face is the horror of the audience watching what happens to Sansa. Dude knows little to nothing about directing.

Edited May 19, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[benteen]

Not to mention that Frey Pie, would have had just as much shock value and been a good "It's HBO!" moment as well, while being something Book Readers had been *drooling* to see for years now. 

 

So the Knights of the Vale will be headed up North soon right?!?  All roads lead to Winterfell and I bet Brienne's gonna send word to Jaime to come join her there.  However, if/when Baelish does get there, I don't think it's gonna turn out so well for him, given the prophecy of how the maiden slays the Titan in the snow castle.  It's safe to say that Daznak's Pit and the Walk of Shame take place in Episode 9, the Dance of Dragons, so I'm thinking that Jon's stabbing, (and possibly resurrection) must take place in Episode 10...but I feel like the Big Reveal is happening this season as well, and that might be Episode 9 too, given that Jon is another 'dragon'. 

 

Man it seems like the final episodes will by definition have to be super crowded.  Frankly I think if they were going to change so many book details anyway, they also could have rearranged things to space out some of the larger events out more through the season as well.

 

Frey Pie is another one...how the hell did they pass up an opportunity to do that?!!  Oh, that right...if they did that scene, they wouldn't have time for another ten variations of "Loras is gay" jokes.

 

"Winter" is apparently the name of the season finale.

[BlackberryJam]

 

 

"Winter" is apparently the name of the season finale.

 

Where did you find that? Thanks.

[Pete Martell]

I don't agree with everything in this piece, but this part sums up my main issue with the latest rape on GoT:

 

Game of Thrones is Gross, Exploitative and Totally Out of Ideas:

 

 

 

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-is-gross-exploitative-and-totally-out-1705235364

 

I have this really bad feeling that Sansa's rape is going to be used as a plot device for Theon's character. Which is horrible in so many ways.

 

Beyond the article deciding to derail itself by focusing more on how much they hate Theon (would they have loved the rape scene if they hadn't seen Theon as "useless"?), this is another fan who confuses me by saying that Theon was "a brother" to Sansa. Where do they get that? One speech from Theon in season 3 after being tortured where he says Ned was a father? Absolutely nothing in the books or on the show ever told me that Theon saw any Stark but Robb (and in one moment post-torture, Ned) as any kind of family, and Sansa certainly never saw him as family. 

 

Do people just say this so they can act like it was even worse that a physically mutilated, psychologically broken, malnourished man did not play action hero for them?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Mr. Simpatico]

By cutting Manderly and the other pro-Stark lords and potentially setting up a situation where Sansa is raped and Stannis killed by the Boltons, the show has managed to make the Northern plot even more miserable than in ADWD where Roose's control over the events was starting to slip. I'd rather see a Bolton dead this season than spend one more year unspoiled in the futile wait for TWOW.

The weird thing is that Cogman and D&D are supposedly huge fans of the books (so they always say). The Northern storyline and Manderley are usually held to be the absolute best thing about ADWD. Wylla Manderly confronting the Freys, Wyman telling Davos he has a fleet built and Rickon's whereabouts, Frey pie and "It could have been worse, he could have been a Frey" are some of the greatest 7Hells!Yeah moments in the entire series. So what do these uber-fans do? Cut it and have Sansa raped (not going into whether Roose  - a character who was warned Ramsay about his treatment of a fake Stark - is chill with this) and basically give Sansa ALL of Jeyne Poole's storyline (presumably including being rescued by Theon and Brienne replacing Mance and the Spear-Wives). None of this benefits Sansa. None of this benefits the narrative of the show. Having her learn from LF how to destroy the Boltons has been replaced by making her a sexual pawn and victim - again. 

 

With all due regards to Sophie Turner (who's making the best of things) and her seemingly positive thoughts on this, there is no way anyone involved with the show should be proud of this storyline. It's insulting to the source material AND the character of Sansa. 

[benteen]

Where did you find that? Thanks.

 

Game of Thrones Wiki.  Not sure where they got it from although the finale having that title definitely makes sense.

 

I don't know what's going through the showrunners mind but considering that D&D don't think that Tywin was an evil man...

Edited May 19, 2015 by benteen

[Pete Martell]

The weird thing is that Cogman and D&D are supposedly huge fans of the books (so they always say). The Northern storyline and Manderley are usually held to be the absolute best thing about ADWD. 

 

I don't really think they have ever cared much at all about the North. They likely see it as boring and confusing. At the time I watched, I didn't mind Talisa the way many fans did, but looking back I can see where she was a harbinger of D&D's dislike of the material and decision to just rewrite it however they see fit to entertain them.

[benteen]

I don't really think they have ever cared much at all about the North. They likely see it as boring and confusing. At the time I watched, I didn't mind Talisa the way many fans did, but looking back I can see where she was a harbinger of D&D's dislike of the material and decision to just rewrite it however they see fit to entertain them.

 

Yeah, I remember hearing that they liked the Volantis stuff in ADWD, that's where the Talisa backstory came from.  I liked Oona Chaplin but the creation of the Talisa character was a mess for the story.  Kind of like how they rewrote Shae to really care about Tyrion only to betray him in the same exact manner that she did in the books.  They decided to put this 21st century bent on two characters from their book counterparts (Jeyne Westerling in Talisa's case) and it totally didn't work for the show.

[Bats27]

I can understand why people are angry with the show for bringing Sansa into a position of tormented victim again. It is very upsetting to see. But I'm personally not mad about it because Sansa doesn't have any book story at this point. The books are putting all the stark characters at the wayside for the moment and the show suffers because of it.

That said if Sansa is only once again gonna be a passive character this entire season I will agree with the pissed of fans.

And this is the best that they could come up with?  The most overused, lazy, annoying, and problematic cliché imaginable.  They couldn't think of ANYTHING else for her to do, even when she's hanging out with Littlefinger?  WOW, clearly I gave the writers far too much credit going into this season.

[Happy Harpy]

I'm not sure that it has to be Theon or Sansa. The storyline could serve both characters.

 

Imo, Sansa has learned to observe her surroundings, to make deductions, to distrust and to lie. She has gained internal strength, and lost her illusions. She understood the rules but in the facts, she isn't a player yet. Who did she manipulate? Littlefinger is the ultimate player, but he's obsessed with her and still, actually, make her take all the risks and pay the price of his plan, whereas he preserves his own physical integrity. And a  bunch of rather nice and honorable, old-fashioned style, Vale elders. Don't get me wrong, she was excellent and revealing herself was a stroke of genius. But she was in a pond, an isolated place.

I thought that her evolution wasn't portrayed constantly enough on the show, and it was due to the restrictions of television vs books. But I came to think that the Darth Sansa scene in S4 was the equivalent of the internal POV. It simply  was a symbol of her evolution and her choice of what she wanted to be, imo. And not what many (including me) took as the sign that she'd be on a "winning road" and from now on, she'd manipulate people left and right. 

S5 had her leave the pond for the ocean. I don't think that her agency was removed, it's just that her internal change is confronted to reality in the form of the most terrifying individuals of the continent. Sansa Stark vs the crapsack World of Westeros. Come to think of it, she couldn't win immediately (not that I like it).

 

There's also imo an expectation that Sansa will become badass. I'm not sure that it will ever happen, because I'm not sure it's her. And it's fine, not everybody has to become Brienne or Olenna. It doesn't mean that Sansa can't be strong, or can't be brave. Just, she has to be in her way. I think that some people are still out of her league, that she's helpless in some situations, and there are things she won't be able to do; Winterfell and the Boltons just concentrate the worst of those.

Parenthesis: it isn't something that applies to Sansa only. Brienne is one of the greatest warriors in Westeros, but socially awkward doesn't even start to describe her and it works against her/endangers her; moreover even that great warrior has found herself in a situation where she was at the mercy of men and needed someone to save her. Arya, one of the most willful characters in Westeros, is currently being brainwashed. Olenna just got played by Cersei of all people. Etc.

But there are also things she can do, and I have yet to see that she won't be a dynamic character. And I believe that an association with Theon could allow it. Theon was a fool, and then nothing but a victim since S3. He's the poster child for "no agency". It's very similar to who Sansa was imo, except that she's actually the strong one, psychologically. 

I'm all for an escape from Winterfell starring Theon and Sansa. They already toned down the fArya scene because they used Sansa and not Jeyne Pool (imo), so I think they'll adapt and Theon won't be swayed for the same reasons as in the books. I think she'll win him over. And I would like that. 

Because she'd need to overturn Ramsay's brainwash, which is a feat. Because she'd be the willful one, and the one giving him strength, and the one pushing for action. Because she'd be using the help of others, choosing whom she relies on with her eyes open, aware of her own strengths and her limitations.  In a word, she'd be everything she wasn't in KL, meaning a character with an agency and actively trying to save herself.

Moreover, character-wise, it would be interesting to see her deal with Theon, to deal with forgiveness and compassion (Sansa wasn't very mindful of others, to say the least, when she was privileged) when it comes to a person who did wrong to her family. It could be a mirror/contrast with Arya/the Hound. I want Theon to tell her that Bran and Rickon are alive, too. 

Sansa would need Theon and Brienne to escape, so what? Sansa isn't a warrior, or a physically hardened wildling, I don't expect her to flee Winterfell all by herself. But if she manages to get Theon Greyjoy back from Reek and escape, she'll defeat Ramsay. In her way. On her terms. 

 

On a side note, I still believe that stripping Sansa of a romantic or even decent first time is absolutely something that could be part of "deconstructing fantasy" ASOIAF. I could see GRRM reassure his readers with "phew, at least she doesn't marry Joffrey" to reveal that she isn't better off with Harry the Heir and that he's the Christian Grey of Westeros. TV makes it more horrible because it was Ramsay, but the first shock passed, when I think of the fArya scenes or of what Ramsay is capable of... I won't rewatch the scene, that's for sure, but until I know what exactly the books have in store for Sansa and that a horrible/humiliating first time isn't part of it, I won't blame the showrunners for it.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Holmbo]

And this is the best that they could come up with? The most overused, lazy, annoying, and problematic cliché imaginable. They couldn't think of ANYTHING else for her to do, even when she's hanging out with Littlefinger? WOW, clearly I gave the writers far too much credit going into this season.

The story is from the books. I don't find it to be cliche. That said my final call on whatever I thought it good will have to wait to the end.

I see the north story is Theons redemption (attempt of). Sure Frey pies is cool but it's really just a set up for when the north actually does something to affect the plot. I'm sure that if they do D&D will get to that when it actually happen.

I sound like some hired D&D promontor here :D

I don't mean to. They have shown that they can make mistakes and at times seem short sighted in their adaption choices.

But I can totally understand why they made this one and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt about how it turns out.

As for the episode overall. It might have been my least favorite episode of the show (not sure if it bottoms bear and the maiden fair) because I really disliked Arya's story and Dorne.

[Bats27]

The depressing thing is, how this all ends no longer really matters all that much to me.  I'm sorry, but I cannot help it, this one incredibly foolish decision on the writer's part has ruined it for me.  Even if this ends with Sansa being awesome (these writer's have an frankly ABYSMAL track record in this regard, so I'm not holding my breath), I still won't be able to really enjoy it.  In my mind, it's going to be "yeah, this COULD have been awesome, if you didn't resort to have a rape be what gets her here."  They still resorted to one of the cheapest, laziest, and frankly vile clichés possible, for no good reason.  So no, I couldn't give them credit even then, because it could have been accomplished in a much more interesting/ less problematic way.  I don't want to feel this way, but it's just that this ticks me off that much.

[Bats27]

The story is from the books. I don't find it to be cliche. That said my final call on whatever I thought it good will have to wait to the end.

I see the north story is Theons redemption (attempt of). Sure Frey pies is cool but it's really just a set up for when the north actually does something to affect the plot. I'm sure that if they do D&D will get to that when it actually happen.

I sound like some hired D&D promontor here :D

I don't mean to. They have shown that they can make mistakes and at times seem short sighted in their adaption choices.

But I can totally understand why they made this one and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt about how it turns out.

As for the episode overall. It might have been my least favorite episode of the show (not sure if it bottoms bear and the maiden fair) because I really disliked Arya's story and Dorne.

They've shown that they have no problem changing things from the source material, or even removing subplots/characters entirely, "it happened in the book" doesn't work as an excuse.  They've already cut out or changed far more interesting stuff.  Plus, I found this subplot to be pointless and overly gratuitous even in the book.  So why would I care for it here?  And there track record when it comes to handling the fallout/aftermath of rape has been nothing short of dismal.  So I'm NOT inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, they're previous work/comments have given me no reason to. 

 

And yes, it is horribly cliché:

 

-"In order to be empowered, female character must first be raped/sexually abused"-Horribly cliché.

 

-"Male character must see female character be horribly violated in order to do something"-Horrible cliché, and disturbingly problematic in it's own right.

 

-"Evil man is EEEVVVIILLL"-Horribly cliché.

[Holmbo]

They've shown that they have no problem changing things from the source material, or even removing subplots/characters entirely, "it happened in the book" doesn't work as an excuse. They've already cut out or changed far more interesting stuff. Plus, I found this subplot to be pointless and overly gratuitous even in the book. So why would I care for it here? And there track record when it comes to handling the fallout/aftermath of rape has been nothing short of dismal. So I'm NOT inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, they're previous work/comments have given me no reason to.

And yes, it is horribly cliché:

-"In order to be empowered, female character must first be raped/sexually abused"-Horribly cliché.

-"Male character must see female character be horribly violated in order to do something"-Horrible cliché, and disturbingly problematic in it's own right.

-"Evil man is EEEVVVIILLL"-Horribly cliché.

I see. You don't like the book story either and would have rather the writers just skip it. I think that's a valid opinion.

I think the reason I don't see it as cliche is that Theon to is a victim of abuse. So it's kinda like two people in a victim situation who has a very complicated history and I'm interested in seeing them trying to improve their situation.

[Bats27]

Except that's STILL cliché.  "The only way that we can empower these two, is by horribly violating them first.  Yes, we really have little creativity."

[Hecate7]

Frey Pie is another one...how the hell did they pass up an opportunity to do that?!!  Oh, that right...if they did that scene, they wouldn't have time for another ten variations of "Loras is gay" jokes.

 

"Winter" is apparently the name of the season finale.

 

It's possible they've recast that particular bit so we won't see it coming, and are saving it for a bit later, when we hate the Boltons even more than we already do.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Hecate7

[Danny Franks]

The depressing thing is, how this all ends no longer really matters all that much to me.  I'm sorry, but I cannot help it, this one incredibly foolish decision on the writer's part has ruined it for me.  Even if this ends with Sansa being awesome (these writer's have an frankly ABYSMAL track record in this regard, so I'm not holding my breath), I still won't be able to really enjoy it.  In my mind, it's going to be "yeah, this COULD have been awesome, if you didn't resort to have a rape be what gets her here."  They still resorted to one of the cheapest, laziest, and frankly vile clichés possible, for no good reason.  So no, I couldn't give them credit even then, because it could have been accomplished in a much more interesting/ less problematic way.  I don't want to feel this way, but it's just that this ticks me off that much.

 

Yep. While I was already pretty jaded on the direction the show has taken (not because they changed things from the books, but because the things they decided to keep were the shitter parts of the books, and the show as a whole has become too nihilistic and depressing to ever actually enjoy), this was pretty much the last straw for me. They didn't have Sansa get raped for any 'you go girl' pay off, or any massive character development. Sansa has already had that, through the first four years of the show. They did it because they wanted to shock the audience, and it gets no more complicated than that. Anyone else who doesn't think that was the highest priority in the decisionmaking process is dreaming.

 

But let's recap: Gags about guys with big dicks getting it for free from whores, plentiful gay jokes, lots of boobs and now women being raped into their rightful place in life? This show really is written by thirteen year old boys. Disturbingly unbalanced thirteen year old boys.

 

All the show is achieving now is making me like the books less and less. So that's some going.

 

Uhm. No. Sorry, but that's stupid. The purpose of Theon crying was to make Theon the voice of the audience. Fuck, it's not that hard. Tyrion was the voice of the audience ripping on Dany's mad ruling skillz. Theon's face is the horror of the audience watching what happens to Sansa. Dude knows little to nothing about directing.

 

 

The idea that the writers thought the audience needed a 'voice' to tell them that Sansa being raped it distressing and horrible is perhaps more worrying than them making the rape about Theon's journey. The reason it stayed on Theon's face? Not even these guys were prepared to actually show the rape (which tells me that perhaps they should have thought twice about writing it). Now they get to have their cake and eat it too, by pretending it was about more than upsetting the audience.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Danny Franks

[BlackberryJam]

No offense, Danny. But I thought the last episode was your last straw and you were emphatic about not watching? I don't care if people watch or don't watch. I'm not saying you have to watch. I'm just wondering if you're going to watch next week and then announce that you're not watching?

 

It's a valid position to be disgusted with and not want to watch the show. I totally get that. I don't get people, and not just you, but in other places, announcing one week they are not going to watch, then watching, posting about how terrible the show is, and announcing they are not going to watch. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[Advance35]

It seems like some expected her to grow into a Machiavelli Dynamo Virgin Queen who would rule The North or all Seven Kingdoms.   After Lyssa ther was supposedly no place to go but up.   I hope I get to see the reactions of the people calling for D&D's heads if GRRM has Sansa's first time in the books be equally horrible.   Not with Ramsay but Harry or someone else for all we know.   I don't  like the idea that a crime defines the VICTIM.   It will ALWAYS say more about the perpetrator than the victim IMO.

 

Until GRRM comes out and say's Sansa ends the series as a virgin or he states her first time was a romantic and pleasant prologue to a relationship with..,.......I can't say D&D made a wrong turn.   Anything else is presumption IMO.   Some may think Sansa should have stayed in the Vale and had a supporting Cast set up there to follow Martin's story as far as we know, some also think Northern Lords should have been casted to fill out that part of the narrative, but funds are NOT infinite despite the success of the show.

 

And I still think the ending provided by D&D is the ONLY one the world will ever get.  I don't see GRRM finishing.

[Danny Franks]

No offense, Danny. But I thought the last episode was your last straw and you were emphatic about not watching? I don't care if people watch or don't watch. I'm not saying you have to watch. I'm just wondering if you're going to watch next week and then announce that you're not watching?

 

It's a valid position to be disgusted with and not want to watch the show. I totally get that. I don't get people, and not just you, but in other places, announcing one week they are not going to watch, then watching, posting about how terrible the show is, and announcing they are not going to watch. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

 

No offense, but you're making an odd assumption. I don't think I said anywhere that I watched this episode. I didn't need to watch it to form an opinion on the scene, thanks to the modern wonders of internet videos and gifs. And I don't think it's a requirement to have watched the episode to comment in this thread. The writers lived down to every expectation I had from them, and to the expectations a lot had of them, if the general reaction to the episode is to be relied on.

[penelope79]

With all due regards to Sophie Turner (who's making the best of things) and her seemingly positive thoughts on this, there is no way anyone involved with the show should be proud of this storyline. It's insulting to the source material AND the character of Sansa. 

 

To be fair to Sophie Turner, I had the impression she was just talking as an actress. She found those scenes interesting to film because (again, this is my understanding) she found them challenging acting wise. I don't really think she's proud that a character gets raped. In fact, the first thing she said to the author was: "Why are you doing this to me?"

Edited May 19, 2015 by penelope79

[DigitalCount]

Cut it and have Sansa raped (not going into whether Roose - a character who was warned Ramsay about his treatment of a fake Stark - is chill with this)

Why would Roose have a problem with this? In his mind, his son married the Stark heir and consummated the marriage. The entire kingdom of Westeros is in disarray because of all the people who did not do exactly this. Yes, it was horrifying for Sansa, but that's expected. This is exactly what Roose would want.

[Avaleigh]

I guess it's difficult for me to understand how Sansa's story is permanently ruined for people. I'm not necessarily saying that anyone here is saying the following but the impression that I'm getting is that Sansa's character has been spoiled for some because of her rape and that her story now won't be worth watching anymore and I just totally disagree with this. I reject the idea that Sansa won't come out of this horrific situation as a better and stronger person and don't really care if it's a cliche or not because for me her story continues to be interesting and exciting and I still want to know what happens next. 

 

It seems like some expected her to grow into a Machiavelli Dynamo Virgin Queen who would rule The North or all Seven Kingdoms.   After Lyssa ther was supposedly no place to go but up.   I hope I get to see the reactions of the people calling for D&D's heads if GRRM has Sansa's first time in the books be equally horrible.   Not with Ramsay but Harry or someone else for all we know.   I don't  like the idea that a crime defines the VICTIM.   It will ALWAYS say more about the perpetrator than the victim IMO.

 

Until GRRM comes out and say's Sansa ends the series as a virgin or he states her first time was a romantic and pleasant prologue to a relationship with..,.......I can't say D&D made a wrong turn.   Anything else is presumption IMO.   Some may think Sansa should have stayed in the Vale and had a supporting Cast set up there to follow Martin's story as far as we know, some also think Northern Lords should have been casted to fill out that part of the narrative, but funds are NOT infinite despite the success of the show.

 

I agree. We have no way of knowing but I'd say that it's extremely unlikely that Sansa is going to remain a virgin in the books. 

 

Honestly though, the impression that I'm getting is that even if Sansa does turn out to be raped in the books that certain people would still want D&D to make changes since certain people don't want to see any more rape being depicted on the show.

 

It's weird for me to want to defend D&D here because I too would have preferred to not have the character be raped. At the same time, when I see comments being made that suggest that the showrunners are being irresponsible for including the story, I feel inclined to defend them because it's simply too early to be able to say since we don't know yet how the characters will be handled in the fallout. How do we know that Sansa's pain won't be emphasized more?

 

In any case I already disagree with those who think that the scene was all about Theon and his pain rather than Sansa's. For me the scene was about Sansa and her pain. I certainly thought that more people were haunted by Sansa's cries rather than Theon's tears.

 

Yep. While I was already pretty jaded on the direction the show has taken (not because they changed things from the books, but because the things they decided to keep were the shitter parts of the books, and the show as a whole has become too nihilistic and depressing to ever actually enjoy), this was pretty much the last straw for me. They didn't have Sansa get raped for any 'you go girl' pay off, or any massive character development. Sansa has already had that, through the first four years of the show. They did it because they wanted to shock the audience, and it gets no more complicated than that. Anyone else who doesn't think that was the highest priority in the decisionmaking process is dreaming.

 

I don't think I'm dreaming. Frankly, once I learned that Sansa would be going to Winterfell to meet Ramsay, I would have been more shocked if Sansa hadn't been raped. This is a nasty world they're in so I don't understand the idea that Sansa should be magically protected from now on because she's already been through so much. That's just unrealistic IMO. I feel like people are saying that while bad things do indeed happen to characters that rape in particular should be off of the table because it can be upsetting to viewers. 

 

But let's recap: Gags about guys with big dicks getting it for free from whores, plentiful gay jokes, lots of boobs and now women being raped into their rightful place in life? This show really is written by thirteen year old boys. Disturbingly unbalanced thirteen year old boys.

I've felt this way about certain scenes in the past but I don't feel that way in terms of the way this story has been handled. Just take a look at the people who probably do wish the writing staff had some creepy boys on it so that they could have actually seen Sansa being raped and a naked Sophie Turner. I feel like D&D aren't being given any credit for having the (IMO) good judgement to not show it even though there are plenty of assholes out there who would have wanted them to. 

 

As for the show supposedly making it seem like only women are at risk of sexual violence, again I disagree. How many victims of female mutilation/circumcision are running around in this story? We have lots of eunuchs who were forcibly cut including Varys who was victimized as a child. Just this season we've seen gay men being punished and brutalized for their sexuality and one guy was possibly even castrated. (We got male nudity here too, something that is frequently complained about.) We even have a character like Jaime who admits that a Septon tried to molest him once. We had Theon nearly be a victim of gang rape--something that also almost happened to Sansa. I definitely disagree that women are the only victims of sexual violence in the show or the books. 

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, part of my issue is that I've been actively trying to squelch my immediate reaction of disgust, because it feels like writing a character off as lacking in some way as a result of being raped. Ironically enough, it feels like a combination of a natural reaction to violation combined with an over-investment in Sansa's virginity, and something about that makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to say much more, because I don't think I can really express what I mean in a delicate enough manner to make sense and avoid offense.

[Constantinople]

Why would Roose have a problem with this? In his mind, his son married the Stark heir and consummated the marriage. The entire kingdom of Westeros is in disarray because of all the people who did not do exactly this. Yes, it was horrifying for Sansa, but that's expected. This is exactly what Roose would want.

I don't think Roose would have a problem with how Ramsay physically treated Sansa.

I don't know that Roose would approve of having Theon/Reek present.

But Roose being Roose, he also might not care.

[Advance35]

It's weird for me to want to defend D&D here because I too would have preferred to not have the character be raped. At the same time, when I see comments being made that suggest that the showrunners are being irresponsible for including the story, I feel inclined to defend them because it's simply too early to be able to say since we don't know yet how the characters will be handled in the fallout. How do we know that Sansa's pain won't be emphasized more?

 

This sums up my feelings exactly.  I can't believe I am defending D&D in this instance because I agree there HAVE been missteps on the show and not just controversial ones.   I've thought a few things could have been done better or emphasised more.   But in this instance I felt very much that Sansa was the center of the scene.   And I think a lot of inner-strength was displayed by the character currently and in the past.   This was another chapter albeit a dark one in the story of Sansa Stark.

 

I'll also be very interested in how Sansa reacts in the next episode as I think it will reveal more easter eggs.   Will the character still LONG for Winterfell or will she want to move on from a place that has too many good AND bad memories now.  I do wonder if Sansa/Ramsay will meet in the book because of Highheart's? Prophecy that the maiden with snake venom in her hair will slay a savage Giant in a castle of Snow.   LF or Ramsay?  Hmmmmmm.

 

And Like I said previously, in the show (counter to the books)  Cersei knows where Sansa Stark is.   This is going to become a thing.

 

Ironically enough, it feels like a combination of a natural reaction to violation combined with an over-investment in Sansa's virginity, and something about that makes me uncomfortable.

 

The latter is what I find off-putting about certain reactions.  Chastity or not, I think Sansa is a very worthwhile character and nothing that made her compelling or rootable has been lost in my view.

[SeanC]

And Like I said previously, in the show (counter to the books)  Cersei knows where Sansa Stark is.   This is going to become a thing.

She's tasked the Vale to deal with it, and she's soon to have her own much more imminent problems.  I don't think that plot thread is likely going anywhere.

[blixie]

 

I guess it's difficult for me to understand how Sansa's story is permanently ruined for people.

 

For the record for me,  this is more about HOW these writers choose to portray and use rape and has less to do with Sansa or her story being "ruined". It's that ZERO VALUE has been added *to* Sansa's story just to incite THEON to action. It's that Sansa a main, POV character is being collapsed into a relatively random, minor character in the form of Jeyne Poole, who is left pretty much a gibbering bag of wibber after her experience with Ramsay.

 

Sansa has already dealt with the murder of her family, physical abuse at the hands of Joffrey, nearly raped by a mob, he marriage to Tyrion, set up for Joffrey's murder, nearly raped by the singer, molested by Petyr, and indeed we were shown and TOLD by the narrative this year that Sansa is becoming  a "player", she is trying to take some agency over her life, and the exact moment she expresses a real backbone to anyone in this case Myranda, she is punished for it by being raped. Haha poor dumb stupid dumb Sansa, what a joke she thought she could play The Game of Thrones. This time is special and unique, because all that other trauma wasn't enough to enrage her, to wise her up, to learn her good.

 

On a purely META level I'm never going to get over it, how gross it was, how lame and cliche and tacky and cheap. In terms of Sansa's arc, in show, of course I'll have empathy for her, of course I will still ROOT for her, but before this episode I wanted dead eviscerated Ramsay, and after this episode I wand dead eviscerated Ramsay. Before this episode I wanted Sansa to break free of her captors, and after I still want her to break free of her captors. So I'm never going to agree they had to go there, and going there was a choice, and an offensive terrible gratuitous choice at that.

[DigitalCount]

I'm just spitballing here, but is there a chance that Sansa and Theon work together to take Ramsay down, whereas before this she wouldn't have worked with him? Not from a punitive standpoint, as in "that rotten Sansa, she should have accepted Theon's apology" but from the standpoint that she's so freaked out that she decides to set it aside temporarily?

[BlackberryJam]

Yes, DigitalCount. I can see that. Sansa had no reason to trust Theon about anything ever. Now she does.

And this is Sansa's story, clearly. Sansa doesn't get some pass from having suffered that she is now immune to bad things. I mean, this is GRRM here. Horrible things happen over and over. While he's not POV, let's just put ourselves in Rickon's place. He's five in the beginning. Five. Unable to process what's happening. Starving, alone, frightened, sent off with a virtual stranger to stay with strangers, if he even makes it. He doesn't suddenly have the horrible things free pass, neither does Bran, neither does Ayra (who spent part of her episode getting viciously caned by her only 'friend'). Fuck. Olly watched Ygritte kill his parents in front of him, and didn't the Thenn announce he was going to eat them? Yet no one gives a fuck about Olly. (I can't stand Olly.) Olly gets no horrible things free pass.

GRRM never promised empowerment or happy endings or ...less than painful violent deaths for anyone. Sansa isn't 'owed' anything as a character.

Oh...and being raped doesn't prevent her from becoming a player. Suggesting that she's somehow less or stupider or unable to take action because she was raped is kind of disgusting.

[mac123x]

It definitely seems like Olenna is going to make a deal with the High Septon, I just can't decide if Loras is going to have to suffer a Walk as well.

 

That would be interesting if Loras has to take a Walk.  They've set the precedent by having the former High Septon have to walk. 

 

It will be funny to see the stark (npi) differences in the way they'd film Loras's walk vs Cercei's.  Hers will include full frontal closeups, while his will consist of long-lens shots from behind with vasiline smeared on the lens. 

[Advance35]

GRRM never promised empowerment or happy endings or ...less than painful violent deaths for anyone. Sansa isn't 'owed' anything as a character.

Oh...and being raped doesn't prevent her from becoming a player. Suggesting that she's somehow less or stupider or unable to take action because she was raped is kind of disgusting.

 

Please print all of this on a t-shirt so I can wear it.   I'm still 50/50 on whether Sansa's story is going to come to a bloody end in the book after more horror and hardship is heaped on her of  course.  

[Constantinople]

I don't know that Sansa has a reason to trust Theon now.

Before he was the guy who torched her brothers.

Now he's also the guy in the room who watches her get raped.

She may conclude that Theon is a pervert who enjoys that sort of thing, or that he's too broken to stand-up in any way to Ramsay. Either way, she'd have no reason to trust Theon.

Perhaps they'll completely flip things and it will be TV Sansa leading TV Theon to "safety", or at least, out of Winterfell, rather than Book Theon leading Book Jeyne away.

But I doubt it.

[MrWhyt]

...the exact moment she expresses a real backbone to anyone in this case Myranda, she is punished for it by being raped. Haha poor dumb stupid dumb Sansa, what a joke she thought she could play The Game of Thrones. This time is special and unique, because all that other trauma wasn't enough to enrage her, to wise her up, to learn her good.

 

She wasn't punished for having a backbone, Ramsey was going to rape her on their wedding night no matter what Sansa did or how strong her backbone was.

Edited May 19, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Skeeter22]

The problem with Sansa being raped isn't that it "ruins" her or that it isn't realistic. This storyline doesn't occur in a vacuum. It's part of a narrative in the show, and a larger cultural narrative. The "girl gets raped to motivate hero" and the "girl gets raped so she can be badass" tropes are a problem, and this scene fits both of them.

D&D made choices about what to include from the books. They said they'd been looking forward to using Sansa in this storyline since season 2. They've chosen to eliminate the plotting Northern lords and keep the rape. They chose to treat Sansa as if she were interchangeable with Jeyne Poole despite the characters having different histories, backgrounds, and narrative purposes.

[Bats27]

Yeah, part of my issue is that I've been actively trying to squelch my immediate reaction of disgust, because it feels like writing a character off as lacking in some way as a result of being raped. Ironically enough, it feels like a combination of a natural reaction to violation combined with an over-investment in Sansa's virginity, and something about that makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to say much more, because I don't think I can really express what I mean in a delicate enough manner to make sense and avoid offense.

I don't think that her character is "lacking."  It's the writer's fault, they're the one's that felt like this was the ONLY way possible to "giver her agency."  There were no other non-rapey possibilities in their minds.  I've seen/read rape plotlines in other materials that we're done well.  It's difficult, but it can be done.  The problem here is not just with their "we cannot think of anything else" attitude, it's that they have in no way proven that they have to talent/finesse to execute a plot line like this well.  Heck they were so inept that they apparently didn't even realize that they were writing a rape scene last season, they were that clueless.

 

And no, GRRM having Sansa be raped in a future book would not make it better, because:

 

-Martin himself is no infallible and I've disagreed with certain things that he's done in the books as well (including the equivalent of this particular plot).

-It happening in the book doesn't then mean that it suddenly works in THIS context.

The problem with Sansa being raped isn't that it "ruins" her or that it isn't realistic. This storyline doesn't occur in a vacuum. It's part of a narrative in the show, and a larger cultural narrative. The "girl gets raped to motivate hero" and the "girl gets raped so she can be badass" tropes are a problem, and this scene fits both of them.

D&D made choices about what to include from the books. They said they'd been looking forward to using Sansa in this storyline since season 2. They've chosen to eliminate the plotting Northern lords and keep the rape. They chose to treat Sansa as if she were interchangeable with Jeyne Poole despite the characters having different histories, backgrounds, and narrative purposes.

It also leads to the uncomfortable thought that they might have just been waiting for Sophie Turner to turn 18 in order to do this scene. 

[DigitalCount]

I've seen that before and again I must object. They didn't choose Sansa because she's interchangeable with Jeyne. They chose her because she wasn't. Did anyone else know who Tansy was until Myranda mentioned that she went on the hunt too? Any of those women mentioned could have been the one we saw. Anyone remember Daisy? Does anyone know which Sand Snake Bronn compliments in the most recent episode?

It is because Sansa matters that they put her here. I think I remember Joss Whedon saying that putting Kaylee in horrible circumstances was how he made the audience care about what would happen. Heck, Theon got castrated and it was a source of jokes regarding a dick in a box. White Rat got his throat slit while cuddling with a woman he couldn't have sex with due to mutilation as a child, and people complained that we could briefly see the woman's naked body. When bad things happen to characters we care about, we become invested in that story.