Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

Show first.

 

I wasn't going to watch the books at all, but a post I made about Lady after her death turned out to be too spot on, and too good a prediction, and I was unceremoniously removed from TWOP.

 

I came back as Hecate7, resolved to avoid the Unsullied in any form henceforth. I read all the books in one sitting, pretty much, but I ended up skimming all the Martell, Ironborn, and even some Wall and Mereen chapters, so sometimes I'm surprised by what was really in the book.

[benteen]

I watched the first season and then read all five books.  I pretty much saw the characters from the first season as their book counterparts.  Although I've always pictured Iain Glen as Davos when I read the books.

[magdalene]

I read the first four books years before the TV series started. I read the fifth book once the TV series was on. Ever since I read the third book Jaime has been my favorite character - his POVs really speak to me. Though I started to think he was special ever since that dungeon scene with Cat in the second book. I am really happy with NCW playing him but the writing for the character on the TV show has been very very frustrating for me. When they are on they are really on - but when they are off, when they go off the reservation with Jaime - oi we, it's painful to watch.

 

I think I am doomed to not get what I want out of the books or the show because I don't give a damn about either Dany or Jon. I also have  had this feeling for a long time that GRRM will never finish the books. Something will happen and he won't be able to finish. I had the same kind of weird feeling when earlier this year I just suddenly knew that Lady Stoneheart would not appear this season. So while lots of people where throwing a hissy fit because they were expecting her in the finale I was going oh well...

[Winnief]

 

I think I am doomed to not get what I want out of the books or the show because I don't give a damn about either Dany or Jon. I also have  had this feeling for a long time that GRRM will never finish the books. Something will happen and he won't be able to finish. I had the same kind of weird feeling when earlier this year I just suddenly knew that Lady Stoneheart would not appear this season. So while lots of people where throwing a hissy fit because they were expecting her in the finale I was going oh well...

 

Your premonitions may be on point, (I agree about Martin never finishing the books,) but I see a little more reason to hope; even for fans who don't care about Jon or Dany, there's still the resolution of Jaime, Sansa, Brienne's arcs etc.  Agree that the show sometimes gets Jaime wrong but that happens more in KL/near Cersei-getting him away next season will help a LOT.  

[benteen]

I read the first four books years before the TV series started. I read the fifth book once the TV series was on. Ever since I read the third book Jaime has been my favorite character - his POVs really speak to me. Though I started to think he was special ever since that dungeon scene with Cat in the second book. I am really happy with NCW playing him but the writing for the character on the TV show has been very very frustrating for me. When they are on they are really on - but when they are off, when they go off the reservation with Jaime - oi we, it's painful to watch.

 

I think I am doomed to not get what I want out of the books or the show because I don't give a damn about either Dany or Jon. I also have  had this feeling for a long time that GRRM will never finish the books. Something will happen and he won't be able to finish. I had the same kind of weird feeling when earlier this year I just suddenly knew that Lady Stoneheart would not appear this season. So while lots of people where throwing a hissy fit because they were expecting her in the finale I was going oh well...

 

Jaime became my favorite character too.  Despite the awful things he had done, he's so damn compelling and the transformation his character goes through after losing his hand is great to read.  When I read the books after Season 1, I thought NCW seemed the closest to his book counterpart.  The only time he hasn't been is when D and D go into business for themselves and we get stuff like Jaime killing his cousin and raping Cersei.

 

I agree things should go better for Jaime once he's away for King's Landing.

[anyanka323]

I read the first four books years before the TV series started. I read the fifth book once the TV series was on. Ever since I read the third book Jaime has been my favorite character - his POVs really speak to me. Though I started to think he was special ever since that dungeon scene with Cat in the second book. I am really happy with NCW playing him but the writing for the character on the TV show has been very very frustrating for me. When they are on they are really on - but when they are off, when they go off the reservation with Jaime - oi we, it's painful to watch.

 

I think I am doomed to not get what I want out of the books or the show because I don't give a damn about either Dany or Jon. I also have  had this feeling for a long time that GRRM will never finish the books. Something will happen and he won't be able to finish. I had the same kind of weird feeling when earlier this year I just suddenly knew that Lady Stoneheart would not appear this season. So while lots of people where throwing a hissy fit because they were expecting her in the finale I was going oh well...

I was also fairly confident that Lady Stoneheart would not make an appearance this year.  She's a minor outlier character who has made a grand total of two appearances in the books and I get the sense that GRRM wouldn't include her if he had to write the books again.  She's important as an agent of the North/Stark vengenace against the Freys, Boltons, and their surviving allies.  That storyline wasn't really pursued this year, but may be next year.  If she is included next season, a scenario that may not be happening due to online tantrums thrown by some people, I could see them making her more active and participatory in the payback against the Freys if Michelle Fairley returns for the role.  It would be a waste of her talents and money if she came back for a couple wordless cameo appearances. 

[jeansheridan]

 

The only time he hasn't been is when D and D go into business for themselves and we get stuff like Jaime killing his cousin and raping Cersei.

Okay, totally opposed to the rape, but I've never disliked the cousin-killing.  I thought it was a wonderful scene and it reintroduced us to Jaime just before Season 3 when he was really going to matter again.  It reminded the audience that he is ruthless and that was important to know during his dealings with Brienne.  In the book he's constantly thinking of ways to kill her (and he's only half-serious, but I got the impression that yeah, if it was convenient, he'd do it).  So the non-book readers needed a reminder that this man will chat you up cheerfully, even kindly, and then bash your head in.  Plus we got to hear about some Westeros history.  I love those bits and I wish there had been more in Dany sequences.  She has living history just standing guard over her and she barely asks Barristan any questions!  Drives me nuts!  I'd be like--what was my father like, what about my brother, tell me about the Lannisters and Baratheons and the little shit on the my throne right now, etc ...

 

Okay, jumping topics, but I'm wondering, is there one really good mother in Game of Thrones?  Because I think Lady Stoneheart is a perversion of Mother.  I think Catelyn was a good mother when she was alive (maybe not a great wife), but are there any other good mothers?  I've always wondered about the Mad King's wife.  If he was so insane, what the hell was SHE like?  We know she fled in time to have Dany on the island, but what was her story?  I get the sense that Elia Martell was a good mother, but she was another one sacrificed.  

 

Anyways, any good mothers?  Maybe the Queen of Thorns?  

[Pete Martell]

Joanna?

[ElizaD]

I read books 1-3 before AFFC was published; I'd seen mentions of Ned's death, the Red Wedding and R+L=J on a fantasy book forum and thought I should find out why these big moments were so amazing. I never had strong visual images of the characters so now I see the actors doing the things the book characters do.

 

Catelyn was a good mother to her children. There's not much said about Queen Rhaella, but she must have been pretty decent since there's nothing bad said about her either (she was one of the Mad King's victims, not a Show Myranda-style participant in his crimes) and Viserys was crushed when he had to sell her crown. Elia seems to have been a kind woman and probably a good mother too. Ellaria makes her children #1 when the Sand Snakes talk about bloody, risky plans to avenge Oberyn (rather like Catelyn not wanting war despite Ned's death).

 

IMO, Joanna Lannister gets a lot of unearned hype. Tywin was an asshole trying to compensate for his insecurity with sadism and extreme punishments when Joanna was alive and not just after her death. If Joanna "ruled Tywin" she was fine with cruelties like the original walk of shame Tywin made his father's mistress do; if she didn't approve, she couldn't stop them and so her influence over him was overrated. She didn't even tell Tywin about catching Jaime and Cersei; was she afraid of his reaction? There's no sign that she was a bad mother to the twins (they remember her fondly), but she wasn't amazing either and her decision to cover up the incest meant that when she died Jaime and Cersei were able to resume it, with ultimately disastrous consequences.

[Haleth]

Good mother:  Gilly?

 

I had always heard about how great the books were but never got to them until I heard they were making the series, then I read 1-4 pretty quickly and Dance when it came out.  I've been rereading the books that continue the story after each season to remind myself what's coming up.  I love having faces to associate with the characters as I read.  I'm ok with the physical differences between page and show and am generally ok with the changes to the storylines.  Keeping everything absolutely true to the books would be pretty much impossible with only 10 hours of storytelling each season.  A lot of people (including myself) think there is too much focus on Jon and Dany, but don't most readers think Martin is pointing to them as the most significant characters in the long run?  They are the end game?

Edited June 22, 2014 by Haleth

[Pete Martell]

 

IMO, Joanna Lannister gets a lot of unearned hype. Tywin was an asshole trying to compensate for his insecurity with sadism and extreme punishments when Joanna was alive and not just after her death. If Joanna "ruled Tywin" she was fine with cruelties like the original walk of shame Tywin made his father's mistress do; if she didn't approve, she couldn't stop them and so her influence over him was overrated. She didn't even tell Tywin about catching Jaime and Cersei; was she afraid of his reaction? There's no sign that she was a bad mother to the twins (they remember her fondly), but she wasn't amazing either and her decision to cover up the incest meant that when she died Jaime and Cersei were able to resume it, with ultimately disastrous consequences.

 

I don't think Joanna had any type of great power over Tywin, but I think if she'd lived, then she likely would have been able to convince him, and Cersei, to love Tyrion. I don't think she would have been able to take away Tywin's pragmatic ruthlessness (things like what was done to Elia and her children), but I think she might have been able to prevent him from being so psychologically abusive to his children. I imagine that as Cersei got older she would have idealized her mother less, perhaps even grown to resent her, but she still would have been a major presence who was there for Cersei and loved her. Other than Jaime, who was often away, Cersei never really had that growing up.

[elzin]

I watched the first season and then read all five books.  I pretty much saw the characters from the first season as their book counterparts. 

 

Same here. It made reading the books so much easier because I could put that giant cast with faces instead of just names (and nicknames. Ugh, it was so confusing!)  When new characters were introduced, it generally was a couple at a time and easier to keep track of them.  Even now when I re-read or read the wikis, I pick up on things I didn't notice.

 

As for good mothers... The Mormonts?  I don't think Catelyn was bad until she died. For all her many, many, many faults, Cersei is a better mother than Robert was as a "father".  Not great, but she's not neglectful or terribly abusive. Just short-sighted and indulgent when it came to Joffrey, overprotective to Tommen.

[Pete Martell]

As for Catelyn, I think she was a good mother. The bulk of hatred for her as a mother comes from her treatment of Jon, but Jon was not only a constant reminder of her husband's adultery, but a constant reminder that Winterfell would never truly be her home. She lost the man she loved and the destiny that was supposed to be hers, only to marry his brother, a man who was good and kind, and whom she likely fell in love with bit by bit...and then when he returns home from what could have been certain death, and she is with their firstborn child, their future and hope, he presents her with a son of his own, a mockery, and a reinforcement to her, at what should have been one of the happiest moments of her life, that she simply was not good enough. And she couldn't even talk about this or object. It was a closed subject, for 15, 16 years.

 

My only real criticism of her as a mother is that I think she lacked focus and clarity, not realizing that her attempts to "protect" Bran only left him more vulnerable as she was led down the garden path. But compared to most mothers on the show, I do think she was loving and good.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

Lady Mormont...that's a good one.  We don't see much of her and her daughters over five books but they seem to be tough, smart, and strong-willed. 

 

I think Catelyn was a very good mother too.  Agreed that her concern for them didn't always make her think in the right way but the road to hell is paved with good intentions and so on...

 

Cersei is a better parent than Robert by default.  Selyse, well, she does seem to love her daughter in the books.

 

I've always wondered about Stannis as a parent.  He's not a POV so you don't get into his mind but he barely speaks about his daughter.  Still, we know a few things.  He won't let an "abomination" like Tommen marry his daughter.  Shireen is very well-educated.  Finally, he makes it clear that his forces are supposed to keep fighting to put Shireen on the throne if he dies.  He's mindful of his daughter's right at the very least.

[Pete Martell]

I don't really feel like Stannis has ever been as obsessed with the importance of sons as many rulers on the show have been. Perhaps he was and then gave up after Selyse had so many miscarriages and stillbirths, but I've never felt like he resents Shireen or has settled for her. 

 

(I'm not sure if this is true in the books)

 

He doesn't want her to be beaten, he tries to protect her from the world, yet he also makes sure she has a good education. I'm not sure if he has the ability to love her or to love anyone, but I think he's a good father, at least up to this point. 

[Minneapple]

Jaime became my favorite character too.  Despite the awful things he had done, he's so damn compelling and the transformation his character goes through after losing his hand is great to read.  When I read the books after Season 1, I thought NCW seemed the closest to his book counterpart.  The only time he hasn't been is when D and D go into business for themselves and we get stuff like Jaime killing his cousin and raping Cersei.

Agree with all this. I watched the first few episodes of season one and then read the books. Jaime and Sansa are my two favorite characters, in both the books and show (though I actually like Show Sansa more, I think because her development is brought along better and I adore Sophie Turner's portrayal of her). I just love Jaime's redemption story and particularly his arc in AFFC, which is why I'm dearly hoping they don't fuck it up on the show next season.

[Avaleigh]

I picked up the first book when I heard that HBO agreed to adapt the series. I remember reading the" Sopranos meets Middle Earth" comparison and I was curious. Now that I've read the books and seen the show I don't really think it's the best way to describe the series, but all the same I kind of like that it was my love for The Sopranos that drew me to ASOIAF.

As far as good mothers in the series, I feel like we've seen strengths and weaknesses in the main ones. I actually agree that Catelyn is a good mother overall but the weaknesses she has on that front are glaring enough for me to not be able to ignore them. I feel like her attitude towards Jon had a negative impact on the entire Stark household. It wasn't just about Jon's hurt feelings. Catelyn's attitude and behavior ended up hurting Robb, Arya, Bran, and Ned in particular. As smart as she was about Theon her blindness where Jon is concerned is almost as bad as Cersei's attitude towards Margaery Tyrell. Her inability to recognize the goodness in Jon and his loyalty to Robb is on of the things that's hardest for me when it comes to her character. Another flaw I see in Catelyn in terms of how she is as a mother is her fairly obvious favortism. It's one thing for parents to have their favorites but to me she was too obvious about it. Rickon was lucky enough that he was too young to feel it as Arya did but IMO it would have been apparent in time.

Cersei is obviously a terrible mother but there are times where I feel like she isn't necessarily given credit for displaying any positive attributes on that front and I don't know that this is necessarily true even in the books. One thing that stands out to me is how Sansa acknowledges in ACoK how she always feels safer around Joffrey if the Queen is also present. She makes it seem like Joffrey is at his worst when he doesn't have other people around to keep him in check. Often too it seemed like Joffrey would want to do something horrible and he'd then explain why his mother said that he couldn't do whatever is that he wanted to do. Cersei seemed to have some degree of control over him and I felt like this was also apparent in the show but in a different way. Book Cersei lso seemed to observe a lot less of Joffrey's monstrous side than show Cersei did. Book Cersei always seemed to be out of the room or looking away when Joffrey was doing something bad. Tyrion notices this and Sansa does as well.

With Tommen she demonstrates physical affection and she constantly worries about him as Catleyn did with Bran and Rickon. Otoh I feel like we saw some of her most monstrous parenting with Tommen and when she would do things like wonder about whether or not he was eating well she totally sounds like she only cares out of self interest and can't even trouble herself to ask her son directly how he's feeling. If boarding school were an option for Tommen IMO she'd be all over it provided she could guarantee his safety. The stuff with the whipping boy and stunting his progress on every level is something Catelyn would never have been guilty of with her boys.

Re: JoannaLannister- --

I'm not sure that I'm ready to believe she signed off on the disgrace of the former mistress. I'm also not sure that she was wrong in not telling Tywin about 8 or 9 year old Jaime and Cersei playing doctor. It wasn't like she didn't take any action once she suspected that things weren't right with the twins. Jaime and Cersei both think of it as having been ripped away from each other so it's not like Joanna was treating the incident as though it were nothing. I also think Genna's comment about the best part of Tywin dying with Joanna has to say a lot about her character because Genna presents it all in such a way that one would think the Lannisters were more or less a happy family prior to Tyrion's birth and that Tywin was a different, happier man. Joanna was also trying to arrange matches with her chilren that she thought would make everyone involved happy. She wasn't just thinking about power and alliances.

It's still interesting to think what might have happened had the twins married the Martells. The marriages of Cersei, Elia, Lyanna, and Catelyn all seem like game changers especially Cersei's. When Kevan thinks about what might have been if Cersei had married Rhaegar, I couldn't help but wonder if the outcome would have been the same especially if Cersei had actually had Rhaegar's devotion. Where would that have left Jaime.I always thought it was interesting too that Jaime was intrigued by young Catelyn rather than Lysa. Imagine arrogant young Catelyn with arrogant young Jaime living at Casterly Rock? Lysa made that comment about Catelyn changing because of Ned and becoming more like him. I can only imagine what sort of influence Jaime would have had on Catelyn. Similarly, imagine what sort of influence Oberyn might have had on Cersei had they married as teenagers?

ETA

I basically still have my own picture of most of the characters. The big exceptions are Roose, Tywin, Stannis, and Ned. Gendry too now that I think about it. Lena's voice too has become Cersei's. Thorne's voice is another that has transferred over.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Roose doesn't strike me as Father of the Year but based on his description of his trueborn son, it seems like we might have had one Bolton who wasn't a sociopath.

 

 

Her inability to recognize the goodness in Jon and his loyalty to Robb is on of the things that's hardest for me when it comes to her character.

 

THIS.  Catelyn's hatred of Jon cost Robb a valuable ally.  Sansa developed a snobbish attitude towards Jon based on her mother.  She also slandered him to her uncle Blackfish.  One of the most revealing things about Catelyn is the fuss she raises about Jon coming to say good-bye to a comatose Bran.  Whatever her feelings towards Jon, she should know that Bran loves his brother and would want him to say good-bye, even if he was in a coma.  I was glad when Robb called her out on her blind hatred of Jon. 

[Skeeter22]

Ultimately, if the theory about Jon's parentage holds true, Ned is to blame for the tension in his household. He chose to have Jon raised right under Cat's nose, fully knowing it was disrespectful to her and caused her great distress. He failed Cat and Jon by allowing that to continue, particularly if Jon isn't his bastard at all. At some point, he must have realized he could safely tell Cat the truth, but he never did. Why was a nebulous promise Ned made to his sister more important to him than his family's happiness? 

 

Ned doesn't get enough blame for the way things turned out for the Starks. A lot of their troubles could have been avoided if he had put his family above his loyalty to Robert and his own honor.

[Pete Martell]

 

THIS.  Catelyn's hatred of Jon cost Robb a valuable ally.  Sansa developed a snobbish attitude towards Jon based on her mother.  She also slandered him to her uncle Blackfish.  One of the most revealing things about Catelyn is the fuss she raises about Jon coming to say good-bye to a comatose Bran.  Whatever her feelings towards Jon, she should know that Bran loves his brother and would want him to say good-bye, even if he was in a coma.  I was glad when Robb called her out on her blind hatred of Jon. 

 

I'd think less of Catelyn if she'd tried to ruin Bran's relationship with Jon while he was fully healthy. She never did, as Bran clearly adored Jon, so much so that he nearly gave up the quest that had pretty much kept him going, just to see Jon again.

 

When Jon came to say goodbye, Catelyn was exhausted, paranoid, and angry. Jon was the easiest target.

Ultimately, if the theory about Jon's parentage holds true, Ned is to blame for the tension in his household. He chose to have Jon raised right under Cat's nose, fully knowing it was disrespectful to her and caused her great distress. He failed Cat and Jon by allowing that to continue, particularly if Jon isn't his bastard at all. At some point, he must have realized he could safely tell Cat the truth, but he never did. Why was a nebulous promise Ned made to his sister more important to him than his family's happiness? 

 

Ned doesn't get enough blame for the way things turned out for the Starks. A lot of their troubles could have been avoided if he had put his family above his loyalty to Robert and his own honor.

 

If he was also trying to prevent Robert from murdering a Targaryen child, I can understand it more, but it still upsets me, because he showed no faith in Catelyn. And you could see that this affected her; she was unsure of herself and her place at Winterfell even in the happiness before Bran's fall. 

 

Ned was a good man, a wonderful man, but he hurt his family a great deal with his ideas of honor and nobility. 

[Avaleigh]

I can't let Catelyn off of the hook for her treatment of Jon because she was able to get over her hurt with Ned and didn't take her anger out on him in the way she did with Jon. That she blamed Jon in her actions and behavior way more than she blamed Ned is frustrating to me (although ultimately believable) because I feel like she knows she should be better than the sort of woman who takes her bitterness out on a child who had no choice in the matter. The entire issue just doesn't make Catelyn particularly likable. When we're at the point where the story is basically saying' 'Hey at least she didn't smother him to death the way Cersei would have' I don't know if it's saying all that much in Cat's favor as far as her attitude towards her stepson.

I think Ned dropped the ball on a lot of things but I've always felt that Catelyn had the biggest hand in screwing things up for House Stark if the contest is between her and Ned. She's even the one who encouraged Ned to take the position as Hand.

I agree that Ned ought to have been open with Catelyn about Jon eventually. ITA that his code of honor was beyond frustrating with its inflexibility.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Pete Martell]

I can't let Catelyn off of the hook for her treatment of Jon because she was able to get over her hurt with Ned and didn't take her anger out on him in the way she did with Jon. That she blamed Jon in her actions and behavior way more than she blamed Ned is frustrating to me (although ultimately believable) because I feel like she knows she should be better than the sort of woman who takes her bitterness out on a child who had no choice in the matter. The entire issue just doesn't make Catelyn particularly likable. When we're at the point where the story is basically saying' 'Hey at least she didn't smother him to death the way Cersei would have' I don't know if it's saying all that much in Cat's favor as far as her attitude towards her stepson.

I think Ned dropped the ball on a lot of things but I've always felt that Catelyn had the biggest hand in screwing things up for House Stark if the contest is between her and Ned. She's even the one who encouraged Ned to take the position as Hand.

 

It's tough for me to say, because we saw relatively little of Jon's life at Winterfell, but I think Catelyn went beyond just not killing him. She could have worked to poison her children against him, and I don't think she did that (I'm sure Sansa picked up on Catelyn's disdain for Jon, but I think a great deal of Sansa's disdain for him also came from her princess fantasies; she had the same disdain for Arya, who was closer to Catelyn than Jon would ever be). She let her children love Jon if they wanted to do so, she let him spend time with them and with his father. Obviously this was still terrible for Jon, he still felt isolated and hurt, but you can see the love he felt at Winterfell and the love he has for his family and how much he misses them. He's held onto this even as most of the other children have let it go. That was in spite of Catelyn, yes, but it also shows me that she was able to let him have these moments.

 

I tend to put more blame on Ned because I feel like he had the raw information she didn't and he ignored it based on his idea of fairness and honor. She set the ball in motion because of her trust in Littlefinger and kidnapping Tyrion, but even if she'd done nothing, he would have found out about the incest and would have felt he had to do the right thing, and likely been thrashed for it.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

I can understand Ned not being honest about Jon's parentage earlier on if the theory proves out to be correct.  Catelyn is still very much an unknown to him and he wants to keep him safe.  Catelyn's aversion to Jon helped strengthen the "cover" about Ned's bastard.  I do think he owed it to her at some point to address the topic.  By all accounts, Ned and Catelyn were a political marriage that worked.  They really loved each other and Ned should have told her the truth eventually.  I really would have been fascinated to see what her reaction to it would have been.

 

Ned's aversion to the South and the political games that are played bit him in the ass big-time too.

[Enigma X]

I am another person who did not like book or show Catelyn mainly (not only) because of her treatment of Jon, especially if she did not have that same animosity toward her husband. It shows a lot about her character, and it is not good. I think if she was able to forgive Ned for creating Jon, enough so to have four more children, she could have treated Jon better. He was as innocent as she was in his birth.

[sev]

I forgot the book details, but in the show I highly disliked Cat for her dealing at the Twins: Walder Frey wanted a King, Cat could have let Arya out of the deal.

Instead her and Robb thought no big deal that Arya would have marry a random Frey, and would have to move into a house of weasels and lusty old geezers, don't knowing if her husband will be caring. Apparently forcing Robb to pick a wife that may result not so pretty is sooo much worse...

Arranged marriages are a given, but one would think that at lest the good guys would show a little care. Luckily the Boltons weren't lords at the Twins...

Edited June 23, 2014 by sev

[ElizaD]

It's tough for me to say, because we saw relatively little of Jon's life at Winterfell, but I think Catelyn went beyond just not killing him. She could have worked to poison her children against him, and I don't think she did that (I'm sure Sansa picked up on Catelyn's disdain for Jon, but I think a great deal of Sansa's disdain for him also came from her princess fantasies; she had the same disdain for Arya, who was closer to Catelyn than Jon would ever be). She let her children love Jon if they wanted to do so, she let him spend time with them and with his father. Obviously this was still terrible for Jon, he still felt isolated and hurt, but you can see the love he felt at Winterfell and the love he has for his family and how much he misses them. He's held onto this even as most of the other children have let it go. That was in spite of Catelyn, yes, but it also shows me that she was able to let him have these moments.

I agree that Catelyn wasn't perfect but she let the kids make up their own minds. Even Sansa doesn't dislike Jon. When Sansa has a dreamy view of society she's criticized for that, but when she's realistic about Jon being her bastard brother she's criticized for that too; by AFFC she's identifying with Jon and his model of bastard courage. Jon remembers her giving him advice about how to talk to girls and never negatively sets her apart from the rest of the kids in his memories.

 

GRRM's old answer: "Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere."

 

IMO, Catelyn was hurt and didn't act in the most admirable, inclusive way, but being remote and class conscious in her treatment of a bastard who was still allowed to stay at Winterfell instead of being fostered out of sight is a minor flaw compared to how little actual attempts at child murder matter to popular characters (who've become definite Good Guys on the show) like Jaime and Tyrion.

[Pete Martell]

I forgot the book details, but in the show I highly disliked Cat for her dealing at the Twins: Walder Frey wanted a King, Cat could have let Arya out of the deal.

Instead her and Robb thought no big deal that Arya would have marry a random Frey, and would have to move into a house of weasels and lusty old geezers, don't knowing if her husband will be caring. Apparently forcing Robb to pick a wife that may result not so pretty is sooo much worse...

Arranged marriages are a given, but one would think that at lest the good guys would show a little care. Luckily the Boltons weren't lords at the Twins...

 

At that point Arya was either lost or trapped in King's Landing with Ned and Sansa (I can't remember). I think helping to get her back safely and help the whole family survive would mean using her name to try to get Walder Frey onside. Catelyn knew how important these promises were. If Arya had been there and had argued with her she probably would have been more distraught about it. She may have given him too much but I think she was just desperate.

I agree that Catelyn wasn't perfect but she let the kids make up their own minds. Even Sansa doesn't dislike Jon. When Sansa has a dreamy view of society she's criticized for that, but when she's realistic about Jon being her bastard brother she's criticized for that too; by AFFC she's identifying with Jon and his model of bastard courage. Jon remembers her giving him advice about how to talk to girls and never negatively sets her apart from the rest of the kids in his memories.

 

In the first book I think he did mention or imply that she was more distant toward him than others were, but I felt like her reactions were never serious dislike, just the feelings of a child. Sansa was so young, emotionally, and so sheltered (by both her parents), that a "bastard" brother was a struggle for her to fit into her perfect world and perfect future.

[mac123x]

I am another person who did not like book or show Catelyn mainly (not only) because of her treatment of Jon, especially if she did not have that same animosity toward her husband. It shows a lot about her character, and it is not good. I think if she was able to forgive Ned for creating Jon, enough so to have four more children, she could have treated Jon better. He was as innocent as she was in his birth.

 

Her story to Talisa about Jon having a life-threatening fever as a child showed that she knew all along that her attitude toward him was wrong, but she did it anyway.  It was a very human moment, showing that she's a flawed person.  For me it made her more relatable, but not at all more likeable.  I understood why she felt the way she did, but I thought she should have gotten over it, particularly as Jon got older and turned out to bee such a good brother to her children.

 

 

I forgot the book details, but in the show I highly disliked Cat for her dealing at the Twins: Walder Frey wanted a King, Cat could have let Arya out of the deal.

 

It really bugged me when Catelyn "explained" Walder Frey's anger.  "He wanted a king, and now he has to settle for Edmure."  Yeah, no, Cat, not at all.  Ned was still alive when she struck that bargain, so at the time all Walder was getting from the deal was the heir to Winterfell.  Robb wasn't declared King in the North until later. 

 

As far as Arya goes, at the time Cat made that deal Arya wasn't old enough to marry.  Catelyn might have been thinking she could weasel out of the deal later.

[Avaleigh]

Eh, knowing Catelyn as we we know her though, I just see her frowning and getting all judgmental over Arya somehow weaseling out of the match after House Stark had already given their word. Not saying that she wouldn't empathize to a degree for her daughter but ultimately I feel like she'd expect Arya to suck it up as she did unless we were talking about some openly extreme douchebag like Ramsay.

I think for me when it comes to Catelyn's character I sometimes feel like I expect more from her or at least better behavior in general. I don't expect for her to be perfect, I understand why she'd have hurt feelings over the Jon situation, and I don't think she's a horrible person. I've just found myself bristling when it comes to moments she's had with various characters most notably Jon, Tyrion, Brienne, Rickard Karstark, etc. The self righteousness from characters like Cat and Ned is just something I can't bring myself to ignore especially if I'm supposed to see them as the "good guys".

This all makes me think about the criticism that D&D don't necessarily see Tywin as a monster. While I don't disagree about Tywin's monstrous behaviour as a character, I think I take issue with the level of criticism he sometimes receives while other characters are often cut a lot more slack. Robert Baratheon- -I feel like people think the two characters aren't even in the same league when it comes to the Monstrous Asshole Award and I find that to be puzzling because I feel like Robert was just about as offensive as Tywin when I examine their overall behavior. The big difference between them to me is that Robert was more jovial and fun loving so that he almost comes across as a nice guy, but I think the majority of the people who had to deal with him in any significant capacity could see what a selfish, cruel, and horrible man he could be more often than not.

Re: favorite characters, Jaime also became my favorite in ASoS. I was super intrigued by the chapter of him with Catelyn in ACoK and remember being excited to see that Jaime would now be a POV. The only other times I got that excited about getting a new POV were when I heard we'd be getting a Barristan chapter and a Melisandre chapter. The latter was especially exciting to me as I never thought it would happen- -I assumed that she'd know too much.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Pete Martell]

Eh, knowing Catelyn as we we know her though, I just see her frowning and getting all judgmental over Arya somehow weaseling out of the match after House Stark had already given their word. Not saying that she wouldn't empathize to a degree for her daughter but ultimately I feel like she'd expect Arya to suck it up as she did unless we were talking about some openly extreme douchebag like Ramsay.

I think for me when it comes to Catelyn's character I sometimes feel like I expect more from her or at least better behavior in general. I don't expect for her to be perfect, I understand why she'd have hurt feelings over the Jon situation, and I don't think she's a horrible person. I've just found myself bristling when it comes to moments she's had with various characters most notably Jon, Tyrion, Brienne, Rickard Karstark, etc. The self righteousness from characters like Cat and Ned is just something I can't bring myself to ignore especially if I'm supposed to see them as the "good guys".

This all makes me think about the criticism that D&D don't necessarily see Tywin as a monster. While I don't disagree about Tywin's monstrous behaviour as a character, I think I take issue with the level of criticism he sometimes receives while other characters are often cut a lot more slack. Robert Baratheon- -I feel like people think the two characters aren't even in the same league when it comes to the Monstrous Asshole Award and I find that to be puzzling because I feel like Robert was just about as offensive as Tywin when I examine their overall behavior. The big difference between them to me is that Robert was more jovial and fun loving so that he almost comes across as a nice guy, but I think the majority of the people who had to deal with him in any significant capacity could see what a selfish, cruel, and horrible man he could be more often than not.

 

I think Catelyn would be frightened of real repercussions for Arya. I think she was for Robb too, but she just never realized how far Walder would go, because she lacked focus. But if Arya refused I think Catelyn would have ultimately supported her.

 

One of the reasons I sympathize with Catelyn is because I feel like she was scared all the time, even in periods when her world was wonderful. I don't think she ever felt completely secure in her marriage (I don't think she believed Ned would ever cheat on her again, but I do think she worried that Ned had loved this other woman far more than he'd ever love her), I don't think she felt secure at Winterfell, I don't think she felt secure as a mother. I think she put on a good front, because that's what she had been raised to do, be the perfect wife and mother, but underneath she was broken glass. 

 

House Tully is/was just a mess, which is another reason I sympathize with Catelyn. Hoster must have done a real job on his children - Lysa was just horribly tragic (and I don't think that's all on Littlefinger), Edmure is a silly, insecure twit, and Catelyn was also extremely insecure. 

 

I just see Catelyn as a very sad, beautifully broken creation, who made a lot of mistakes, but who was also kept in a glass cage of sorts. Unfortunately every time she tried to free herself, she'd just enter another, smaller cage, and on and on.

 

I'm always kind of glad that I haven't seen any of the, "Let's talk about what a wonderful man Robert was!" that I see all the time for, say, Rhaegar or what have you. I think Robert was a pretty pathetic man - a terrible, distant father, a terrible husband, a terrible king (of course even he said he shouldn't have been king). I admire that GRRM made it very clear in the books that his happily ever after fantasies about Lyanna were just that, and that she had no real desire to marry him, she had no love for him. I wish the show had gotten that across. 

 

I actually think the show did a better job of pointing out Robert's flaws than they did Tywin's, somehow. Tywin's main flaw in the show was, "He's so mean to Tyrion." He was a terrible father to all of his children, he stayed away from court far too long (meaning that Joffrey became a complete monster, one who soon would have been out of Tywin's control - Olenna Tyrell did him a huge favor...), and the Red Wedding was in the long-term a disastrous choice to make. Hopefully with the North rotting away even further next season we'll hear more characters talk about this.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

Rhagar was a selfish asshole which I'd love to see someone point out in the books.

 

 

House Tully is/was just a mess, which is another reason I sympathize with Catelyn. Hoster must have done a real job on his children - Lysa was just horribly tragic (and I don't think that's all on Littlefinger), Edmure is a silly, insecure twit, and Catelyn was also extremely insecure.

 

Oh yeah, definitely.  Tywin had the higher ambitions because he wanted to marry his daughter into the Crown.  But Hoster was right behind him when it came to ambitious marriages, no matter what effect in had on his family.  He originally arranged for Catelyn and Lysa to marry the heirs to Winterfell and Casterly Rock.  After Lysa became "damaged good" he forced her to get an abortion and managed to marry her off to the ruling lord of the Eyrie.  He wanted to marry his brother to a daughter of House Redwyne, one of the most powerful of the "smaller" houses with probably the most powerful Navy in Westeros.  Edmure was kept available for the best possible match and I recall Arianne saying that Hoster had been interested in marrying her to Edmure.  So Hoster's ambitions were huge and he ultimately cared more about those ambitions than he did about his family. 

 

It worked out great for Catelyn but Lysa never recovered from all this and Hoster permanently destroyed his relationship with his daughter in the process.  He destroyed his relationship with his brother, who ultimately was very loyal to his family.  That was the only reason he ended up returning.

 

I've often wondered if his focus on marrying his children off to other houses in other parts of Westeros is the reason why he had so many bannermen turn against him during Robert's Rebellion.  Certainly Edmure could have married the daughter of a bannerman.

[elzin]

I don't LIKE Catelyn's treatment of Jon, but I still like her as a person and find her so relatable. I try to be a decent person, but I don't know that if my spouse came home with a bastard that I could be better than she was.  I mean, that's the worst thing I can find to say about her when she was alive, that she wasn't full of hugs and kisses for her husband's illegitimate kid.   We know Jon is amazing, but he represents all her insecurities in one potentially-usurping body.  Just like Sansa can't know how great Tyrion is when she marries him because she's not privy to our knowledge, Cat keeps herself at a distance from Jon and with a healthy dose of denial and can't see what we see.

 

I mostly blame Ned for that, given that my headcanon is the standard R+L=J, and that they ran away together in love/prophecy-fulfillment, not a rape scenario.  Because he had to keep Jon's identity secret, and just thinking about Jon's origins made him have deep feels, he couldn't tell Catelyn the truth. Also for her own safety, not just his promise to Lyanna. If a whisper got back to Robert even by accident, if Varys had his little birds in Winterfell, for example, Jon's life would be over, and anyone else who knew. Cat couldn't know because it kept her safe as much as Jon.  And it's very full circle with Rhaegar and Lyanna's running off consensually being kept a secret to the detriment of the realm.   If Ned could have told her the truth, then she would have been more open to Jon, but if she weren't cold and distant, people might suspect. Catelyn Tully would not accept her husband's bastard living under her roof, so Catelyn Tully had to be kept in the dark. 

[benteen]

I was just thinking they left out the whole Petyr got Lysa pregnant story.  It always was a little confusing to me though.  I thought it was his duel with Brandon that sent LF packing from Winterfell.  But we also learn about him deflowering Lysa and that was what got him packing.

[Pete Martell]

You'd think they might have mentioned that if they wanted us to think he was manipulating her all along. Perhaps they were afraid viewers would be confused. Or they just didn't want to go there (I know some fans claim that she raped him). They streamlined so much of Lysa's struggles and of House Tully. I can see why, but I think it would have shed a light on the family instead of people just going, "Wow Cat and Lysa are such <insert slur here>."

Edited June 23, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Avaleigh]

Hoster Tully is another one. Why didn't he take one for the House Tully team and marry again? As ruthless as the Ironborn are I'm surprised that Asha and Theon's mother hadn't been gotten rid of long ago. Curious too that Robert wouldn't have insisted that Renly marry a woman of his, Robert's, choosing. Or maybe there was talk of it and I'm just not recalling.

Going back for a moment to hypothetical marriages, imagine how different things might have been if the proposed Stark/Baratheon alliance had been Robb and Myrcella with Myrcella remaining in Winterfell. Then they could still look for a rich bride for Joffrey and Sansa and Arya as daughters of the Hand could be used to make up for any alliance Myrcella might have made.

In the books Cersei tells Sansa her highborn marriage amounted to Robert being able to rape her whenever he liked, he could beat her, and eventually she could also have looked forward to him finding a way to trade her in for a younger woman which he likely would have done in the form of then 14 year old Margaery Tyrell. Of all of Cersei evil deeds the murder of Robert might be the least troubling to me. It was either him or her so she chose herself and I can't say I blame her considering that awful marriage and Robert's repeated abuse. I feel like Robert was ultimately responsible for his own unhappiness and eventual end. On the show too he's consistently a mean bastard to wine provider Lancel who hadn't done anything to be treated in such a way. I can criticize Cersei for a load of other stuff but I basically shrug my shoulders when it comes to her actions wrt Robert.

[KatWay]

It's not like Cersei is innocent of the marriage debacle between her and Robert though. Yes, he loved Lyanna (or idealised her still, but aside from saying her name accidentally in the wedding night) he must have behaved at least normally or tolerably before then since Cersei had a bit of a crush on him. After the wedding night she basically hated his guts and we know Cersei can be unpleasant when she hates somebody. I mean, we don't really know if Robert did try in the beginning and it just proved to be impossible to win her over. The marriage also didn't seem that abusive to me - I don't remember what it was like in the books, but on the show when he slapped her they both had a "whoa" look on their face, didn't seem like something that happened before let alone frequently. I think for the most part Robert just ignored Cersei in later life and she concentrated on her kids. Sure, unhappy marriage and they couldn't stand each other but abusive? Certainly nothing that gave her the right to kill him. She was protecting herself and her kids, so understandable yeah, but not some heroic act of avenging herself by killing her abuser. From what I saw the Robert/Cersei relationship seemed pretty equal disdain on both sides, but Robert didn't have Cersei's vindictiveness or sadism so he likely just ignored her and slept with whores. Cersei used her free time to sleep with her brother, so it's not like she was crying herself to sleep over that.

[benteen]

Hoster Tully is another one. Why didn't he take one for the House Tully team and marry again? As ruthless as the Ironborn are I'm surprised that Asha and Theon's mother hadn't been gotten rid of long ago. Curious too that Robert wouldn't have insisted that Renly marry a woman of his, Robert's, choosing. Or maybe there was talk of it and I'm just not recalling.

Going back for a moment to hypothetical marriages, imagine how different things might have been if the proposed Stark/Baratheon alliance had been Robb and Myrcella with Myrcella remaining in Winterfell. Then they could still look for a rich bride for Joffrey and Sansa and Arya as daughters of the Hand could be used to make up for any alliance Myrcella might have made.

In the books Cersei tells Sansa her highborn marriage amounted to Robert being able to rape her whenever he liked, he could beat her, and eventually she could also have looked forward to him finding a way to trade her in for a younger woman which he likely would have done in the form of then 14 year old Margaery Tyrell. Of all of Cersei evil deeds the murder of Robert might be the least troubling to me. It was either him or her so she chose herself and I can't say I blame her considering that awful marriage and Robert's repeated abuse. I feel like Robert was ultimately responsible for his own unhappiness and eventual end. On the show too he's consistently a mean bastard to wine provider Lancel who hadn't done anything to be treated in such a way. I can criticize Cersei for a load of other stuff but I basically shrug my shoulders when it comes to her actions wrt Robert.

 

Widowed Lords seem to have trouble "taking one for the team."  Tywin Lannister could have easily remarried.  A ton of Lords would be throwing their daughters at him.  I think Tywin truly loved Joanna and never considered marrying again.  But not even considering it is hypocritical.  But as we see when it comes to the subject of whores, Tywin was a hypocrite. 

 

I mentioned this recently but I've heard interesting theories about why Tywin didn't re-marry.  One person pointed out that he married a fellow Lannister, his cousin Joanna (we don't know how close or distant a cousin she was).  Tywin is a snobbish elitist and maybe he didn't feel anyone but a Lannister (a cousin, not a sister) was worthy enough for him to marry.  The most interesting theory is that Tywin was terrified of having another child who was a dwarf.  Because it would prove that it was Tywin's genes which gave birth to dwarfs.

 

Hoster could have offered to marry that Redwyne girl that his brother wouldn't have.

 

Cersei was another hypocrite.  Robert wanted Lyanna, big deal.  Cersei wanted Rhaegar and was actively screwing her twin brother.  It's the same hypocrisy her father had.  That doesn't excuse Robert forcing himself on her.  But Cersei did as little to make her marriage work as Robert did.

[Avaleigh]

In the show Cersei actually seems like she tried to give the marriage a chance. That's why I thought Robert's comment to her about how there was never a time or a moment when he felt that their marriage could work was so telling because it showed me that he was always checked out of the marriage and never bothered to try. With Cersei though it doesn't seem like she stopped trying until some time after the death of their first child. When they have that conversation she acts as though she been wounded all over again but tries as usual to pretend that she doesn't feel anything when insideshe's thinking at least Robert isn't leaving her with any regrets about her choices on that score.

As far as the books I thought it was apparent that Robert and Cersei's marriage was a lot worse in those than on the show. He was sexually abusive and it went beyond what would have been deemed acceptable from a nobleman in Westerosi society. Robert in fact is ashamed of his behavior with Cersei and tries to make it seem like he doesn't remember or that the drinking would somehow excuse it. She would tell him that he hurt her and while he'd at least have the grace to look embarrassed it still didn't keep him from doing it again and again. I don't think that Cersei's affair with Jaime should have given Robert permission to be abusive. (Not saying anyone is saying that.) I feel like things might very well have been better for the realm if Robert had at least tried in the beginning and not just with his marriage.

As far as how Robert behaved before the wedding night, I'm sure he seemed like a good guy but I think Cersei was physically attracted to him and was turned on by his victory more than having seen anything in his personality that intrigued her.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Avaleigh

[jjjmoss]

I don't LIKE Catelyn's treatment of Jon, but I still like her as a person...We know Jon is amazing, but he represents all her insecurities in one potentially-usurping body.  Just like Sansa can't know how great Tyrion is when she marries him because she's not privy to our knowledge.

I don't like Cat, but the best thing she did in book one was tell him "It should have been you," which was hilarious. And while we are in Jon/Tyrion's heads, I'm pretty much on Cat and Sansa's side when it comes to them, as they are rarely if ever amazing or great. 

[Skeeter22]

When I think of Cersei' s misdeeds, killing Robert never crosses my mind. I think both he and Raegar get too much credit and sympathy. Frankly, they both got off easy by dying. The misery and destruction they left behind is unbelievable. 

[Avaleigh]

Re:Tywin marrying Joanna--

I agree that he definitely loved her and agree with the poster who noted that it was probably some unspoken rule that it was a subject that was considered off limits to everyone even Kevan and Genna.

I also thought GRRM once said something about Tywin choosing to marry a Lannister in order to merge what were essentially the two most powerful Lannister factions in order to avoid any potential unrest within the family when it would come to someone making a claim down the road. They were basically trying to consolidate the family line. This being the case I'm unsure if it was a political alliance plus a love match or a political alliance that quickly turned into one, but they didn't just get married because they were in love.

[KatWay]

I don't care all that much about Robert and I do think the show and books have never tried to portray him as a hero nor do the fans see him like that - he's just long dead at this point and mostly remembered as "drunken buffoon".

 

I agree about Rhaegar though. We don't know all that much about him, but I don't like him at all. I don't care about how noble or tragic he was, he caused a whole bunch of problems for a lot of innocent people just by being selfish as hell. Same goes for Lyanna as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I hope she at least felt guilty when she heard what happened to her poor father and brother after she ran off with Rhaegar. 

[benteen]

Re:Tywin marrying Joanna--

I agree that he definitely loved her and agree with the poster who noted that it was probably some unspoken rule that it was a subject that was considered off limits to everyone even Kevan and Genna.

I also thought GRRM once said something about Tywin choosing to marry a Lannister in order to merge what were essentially the two most powerful Lannister factions in order to avoid any potential unrest within the family when it would come to someone making a claim down the road. They were basically trying to consolidate the family line. This being the case I'm unsure if it was a political alliance plus a love match or a political alliance that quickly turned into one, but they didn't just get married because they were in love.

 

Yeah, I don't want to think what would have happened to a person who suggested that Tywin should get remarried.

[gemmalogical]

Changed my mind. Sorry for taking up space.

Edited June 23, 2014 by gemmalogical

[Minneapple]

The thing with Rhaegar and Lyanna is that we don't know the whole story. We don't know if they ran off together. He could have kidnapped her like the Starks claimed. We don't know what caused him to give her the Love and Beauty crown. The people who recall events about them only speculate and see things from their own biased points of view. Hell, most people accept R+L=J as canon, but we don't even know if that's what GRRM has planned.

 

I sincerely hope GRRM plans a Howland Reed POV chapter in WoW. And I'm very very curious to see what the showrunners have in mind for next season, if they plan to begin addressing Jon's parentage.

 

Meanwhile, 10 Moments from Season Four that Infuriated Book Readers:

 

http://www.hitfix.com/comedy/10-moments-from-game-of-thrones-season-4-that-infuriated-book-readers

 

Well, I don't know that all of these infuriated me. I don't really care about Theon or any of the Greyjoys, so I was all whatever about that plot. Probably the change that pissed me off the most was Jaime raping Cersei.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Minneapple

[magdalene]

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/06/23/familiar-face-returning-game-thrones-season-5/#comments

 

It's looks like Tom Wlaschiha is back in season 5 according to winteriscoming which usually gets these casting things right.

 

I am happy about it because I really liked this actor when he was on in the second season.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2014 by magdalene

[Pete Martell]

I agree about Rhaegar though. We don't know all that much about him, but I don't like him at all. I don't care about how noble or tragic he was, he caused a whole bunch of problems for a lot of innocent people just by being selfish as hell. Same goes for Lyanna as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I hope she at least felt guilty when she heard what happened to her poor father and brother after she ran off with Rhaegar. 

 

I don't put too much on Lyanna, as she was just a young girl and we don't really know whether she even had any choice in the matter, but the whole thing means that if R + L = J is true, poor Jon will feel even more crushed. He was/is so worried about staying away from women (aside from Ygritte), because a bastard siring children meant he could not be a father to them. He would learn that the only reason he was conceived is because his father abandoned his other children, who were then murdered.

 

Well, I don't know that all of these infuriated me. I don't really care about Theon or any of the Greyjoys, so I was all whatever about that plot. Probably the change that pissed me off the most was Jaime raping Cersei.

 

Is all of that even true? Didn't Asha later try to pay for Theon's safety and when that failed, ask Stannis to at least give him a death that would let him go out with peace? I didn't think book Asha had zero affection for Theon.

 

I get the whole "he isn't a master swordsman in the book" complaints, but I think that would make poor TV (although Yara/Asha's rescue was not great TV anyway). I didn't really have a problem believing Ramsay would be good with a sword, just for reasons of survival.

 

The author really thinks Tywin would have killed Tommen and Myrcella? OK...

Edited June 24, 2014 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

The thing with Rhaegar and Lyanna is that we don't know the whole story. We don't know if they ran off together. He could have kidnapped her like the Starks claimed. We don't know what caused him to give her the Love and Beauty crown. The people who recall events about them only speculate and see things from their own biased points of view. Hell, most people accept R+L=J as canon, but we don't even know if that's what GRRM has planned.

 

I sincerely hope GRRM plans a Howland Reed POV chapter in WoW. And I'm very very curious to see what the showrunners have in mind for next season, if they plan to begin addressing Jon's parentage.

 

Meanwhile, 10 Moments from Season Four that Infuriated Book Readers:

 

http://www.hitfix.com/comedy/10-moments-from-game-of-thrones-season-4-that-infuriated-book-readers

 

Well, I don't know that all of these infuriated me. I don't really care about Theon or any of the Greyjoys, so I was all whatever about that plot. Probably the change that pissed me off the most was Jaime raping Cersei.

Howland Reed chapter would be good but I was kind of hoping we'd get a flashback Ned Stark chapter to open up A Dream of Spring showing the events at the Tower of Joy.

[Advance35]

I actually did sympathize with Robert, in a way.   He was an idiot put in the most important job in the land.   He wasn't cut out for it and I imagine the Iron Bank LOVED having Westeros deeply indebted to them but I think it's Cersei, Joffrey and the Lannister regime that destroyed Westeros.   I also sympathized with Robert more because I just find Cersei so DEEPLY detestable on EVERY level.    I don't think there is an ounce of compassion or potential for remorse or regret in that creature and Robert was stuck with her because he was relying on the money from Casterly Rock.

 

She was screwing Jaimie the morning of her wedding to Robert and considering her long term scheme of putting her Full blooded Lannister on the Throne, her then threatening that Myranda Stone would have an "accident" if she were bought to Kings Landing is nauseating.   Letting the people starve and ordering the massacre of infants throughout Kings Landing to snuff out Robert's bastards came back to bite her in the end because I think THAT'S why they cheered and jeered during Cersei's walk of shame.   I wouldn't have felt for her either.

 

Of course she's been white-washed of all of this in the show so...............

[elzin]

I wonder why she's been whitewashed. Is it surprising awareness of how they portray women? So they dial back her stuff because it's too hateful?  Or is it just being practical with time constraints?

 

No adaptation can be perfect, so it's hard to know where to give slack or not.  Since they are whitewashing some of the other Lannisters, I'm inclined to think they don't see them as needing to be that evil (or, as in the case of Tywin, don't see him as evil to begin with).  They might think they get enough of Cersei's awfulness on screen that they don't have to show EVERYTHING, or they might be holding some of it back so the audience isn't so repelled by her they turn the tv off.

While I give them a lot of grief for some of the horrible changes they made, sometimes I do have to step back and remember it is really hard to adapt hundreds of pages into 10 hours.