Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[BlackberryJam]

It's not a specific interview, more what I remember them saying in various places over the years.  They were asked how much they knew at various points, and they said they'd been told the ending, but that the real details didn't come until after season 3 (which you can really tell, in my opinion, from how the writing started to shift after that point).

 

That's the thing, though, we're evidently meant to take Littlefinger at face value, as the writers and actors certainly seem to.  And Sansa did have autonomy, when she revealed herself to the Vale lords and got some measure of security from them, independent of Baelish -- which she then immediately gave up in season 5, without any reason other than the plot required it.

 

I remember the D&D interviews differently, so we'll just have to disagree.

 

I don't think we are meant to take LF at face value. Why would we? From Season One he's told us not to trust him. As a viewer, taking anything he says at face value seems foolish.  I'm no Ned Stark. You tell me not to trust you. I won't ;)

[SeanC]

I don't think we are meant to take LF at face value. Why would we? From Season One he's told us not to trust him. As a viewer, taking anything he says at face value seems foolish.  I'm no Ned Stark. You tell me not to trust you. I won't ;)

Because the writers and actors have talked about this as if it's genuine, like I said.

[BlackberryJam]

Because the writers and actors have talked about this as if it's genuine, like I said.

Again, why would I take LF at face value? It is the writers, actors, etcs job with these interviews to keep you watching. They aren't going to say "LF is totally playing everyone, just wait." That's bad marketing.

I mean, NCW was trolling us with a duck already. LH gave us the stone heart. You cannot and should not take what the actors say at face value. They are salespeople, selling their product, not truthtellers. The interviews are designed to intrigue and interest the viewer.

Edited May 10, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Hecate7]

The question of Tyrion's parentage gets brought up from time to time, but my opinion hasn't changed - I think both version would work for me. Yes, Tywin being so dead set against Tyrion because of the combination of his dwarfism with Joanna's death is a great example of tragic irony, but there is a sense of narrative logic if all 3 of the main characters - Jon, Dany and Tyrion - would turn out to be related, especially if they're also all dragon riders. However, after the latest episode, I think if Tyrion were to be a secret Targ, it would have been foreshadowed much better. Just look how many times Rhaegar has been name-dropped, R+L=J is totally happening (not that I had much doubt ever since I've first read this theory so many years ago).

 

Ways Tyrion's Targness is foreshadowed:

1. "All dwarves are bastards in their fathers' eyes."

2. Quickly bonds with Jon Snow, who would be his nephew if the theory were true.

3. Jon Snow's eyes are black. (OR a really dark purple that people assume is black.) Tyrion has one black and one green eye.

4. Another character has one black and one green eye, and she was a Targ bastard.

5. Tyrion wanted a dragon when he was a child.

6. In the books his hair is not Lannister gold, but Targaryen white, and very straight and smooth.

7. Multiple characters allude to Joanna's molestation by Aerys. Why is this in the story at all?

8. Tywin's outright rejection of him, to the point of refusing him any sort of inheritance.

9. He doesn't appear to have developed greyscale

[ElizaD]

Harry the Heir isn't Ramsay and arranged marriage isn't interchangeable with rape. Plenty of girls today are fine with the idea of their parents choosing a nice boy from a nice family for them. If Sansa's future storyline involves marrying Harry, that doesn't mean it's a minor adjustment to have her raped in her childhood home instead by the son of her brother's murderer, who happens to be Westeros' worst sadist. Having Sansa take the place of a minor character for extra tension and viewer titillation is treating her and her character development as completely secondary to the shock factor: the rape of a girl by Ramsay and for Theon's development is so important to the showrunners that Sansa can be reduced to a tragic prop despite being a POV character with severals books/seasons worth of history and, presumably, a future that's bigger than just being shipped to obscurity after she's rescued by Theon. But since Jaime raped Cersei with zero plot or emotional consequences, the showrunners are just standing by their earlier view that rape is easy to shrug off and can be freely added to a female character's story for a bit of extra hype. It's going to be sad to see the show spin this as empowerment: a victim who knows that she'll just be more violently raped if she says no is not some great manipulator making a choice when she does as her captor tells her.

 

I'm damn sure the showrunners wouldn't add a non-book scene of a male character losing his virginity to rape by the enemy, no matter how logical and realistic it would be to show that men are raped during wartime, because that wouldn't be the kind of safe, sexy controversy that the rape of a pretty girl is.

 

I hate Jeyne's story completely. And I've seen plenty of comments about how Sansa is getting off easy if she doesn't go through the exact same torture Jeyne suffered. I don't think GRRM deserves any slack for that plot. It is absolutely vile and unnecessary. I remember commenting on Twop that I was glad Jeyne didn't exist so we wouldn't have to see that plot.

Either intentionally of unintentionally, D&D and GRRM somehow manage to cater to the grossest parts of the fanbase. There are plenty of fans who are salivating over the idea of Sansa being raped just like there are people who think Jeyne deserved what she got because she was mean to Arya. As if abuse and degradation are just punishments for one brat teasing another entitled brat.

 

This is one of the reasons why the story feels so awful to me. I've been in the fandom for over ten years and seen the constant hate Sansa gets for being pretty and therefore shallow for not wanting to have sex with Tyrion, the arguments that it would have been perfectly alright for him to claim his rights and she should have submitted to it, and the outright wishes that her story will lead to rape, supposedly because it's logical and realistic but really because people want her punished. This forum is moderated and more grown-up than some places on the net so I haven't seen it here. But when I used to be active on the Westeros.org forum and before they started being tougher on posters wishing sexual violence on characters, it happened over and over again. Especially in earlier days people felt freer to say what should happen to Sansa and how marital sex can't be rape in Westeros without fearing bans. During the post-release ADWD discussion, "I hope Cersei marries Ramsay" became the way to wish rape on her without using the word that would invite a ban more obviously. And now that's happening to Sansa on the show. When I checked out Westeros and other forums before the show premiered but after she'd been confirmed to go to Winterfell, the possibility of Sansa's rape was already treated as an opportunity for jokes about what Ramsay will make her do.

 

So, unlike the rapes on shows based on original material, this one will come with a history. I know there's a substantial part of the fanbase that won't be horrified but satisfied and gleeful, whether they're free to say so as on Reddit or whether they have to be more subtle about it as on Westeros. People are already posting about how unfair and cowardly the showrunners are for not including actual nudity in the rape scene.

[Shanna]

I don't think it's fair to say people hated Sansa for being 'pretty'. She was rather shallow, although she seems to be growing out of that's bit. And this was worse in the books than in the show.

I am not generally of the opinion that everyone who has sex within an arranged marriage has been raped. My objection is to Ramsey specifically. Because he is beyond disgusting and even if I still hated Sansa like I did first season I would not want her anywhere near him. Unless she was plunging a knife into his throat.

Also, the interesting parts of this story in the books for me had not a thing to do with theon or Jeyne. They were all mance and manderlys. I'm holding onto the north remembering in some possibly vain hope they will do something...

Edited May 10, 2015 by Shanna

[SeanC]

Again, why would I take LF at face value? It is the writers, actors, etcs job with these interviews to keep you watching. They aren't going to say "LF is totally playing everyone, just wait." That's bad marketing.

I mean, NCW was trolling us with a duck already. LH gave us the stone heart. You cannot and should not take what the actors say at face value. They are salespeople, selling their product, not truthtellers. The interviews are designed to intrigue and interest the viewer.

We have no idea what the duck was about, and Lena Headey had no idea about the "stoneheart" thing.  The BTS interviews, etc. are not places where they obfuscate; if they don't want to address something, they simply don't talk about it.

[BlackberryJam]

We have no idea what the duck was about, and Lena Headey had no idea about the "stoneheart" thing.  The BTS interviews, etc. are not places where they obfuscate; if they don't want to address something, they simply don't talk about it.

 

Really. No. Every single interview is marketing. We know exactly what the duck was about. NCW told us on Conan. LH knew about LS, but she was having a laugh. These kinds of things make people talk about the show, make people interested and more eager to see the next episode. I'm not a book purist, but I know marketing and I know TV. From the timing of a release of a teaser to a repeated phrase in interviews, everything is marketing. Actors are given spoiler and teaser rules, phrases they can use, all of it, for marketing purposes.

 

But if you want to believe Littlefinger, you go right ahead, Ned. 

 

I have more of a problem with a nonPOV character being a rape victim than a POV. Making a nonPOV character a victim makes rape easy and disposable. It should be horrible and disgusting and make our skin crawl. It shouldn't be casual.

 

As to the Cersei/Jaime scene, the actors have said repeatedly that it was not written as rape, they didn't believe they were filming rape and that they, specifically LH, was not playing it as if she were being raped. So...some pretty crappy acting on her part? But this "they made Jaime a rapist" mantra just doesn't fit the intent of the scene, the writers, the actors....maybe the intent of the lighting director, the film editor and whoever scored it (as mentioned before), but not the intent of D&D.

[The Mormegil]

Why do people think the AA sword needs to be forged again? The story never says the sword was destroyed.  AA will be reborn, that's clear in all the prophesies but the sword was forged once, it doesn't need to be forged again.  I think it's more likely that the sword was given to the Mormonts (the House that lives furthest North) for safe-keeping and that through the years its history was forgotten.

 

Jon already has the sword he needs, he just doesn't know it yet.

 

IMO Lightbringer isn't an actual sword it's the Night's Watch, we are even told so in the NW Oath.

 

 

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

Jon has to reforge the Night's Watch into a weapon to defeat the Others. He tries and initially fails but will eventually succeed after he has been sacrificed (Jon himself is Nissa Nissa) and reborn as AA.

 

Admittedly the show has dropped the relevant line from the Oath but then it's not mentioned Lightbringer itself since the introduction of Stannis in season 2 IIRC so the idea of AA  having a special sword may have been dropped as well.

[GreyBunny]

Ways Tyrion's Targness is foreshadowed:

9. He doesn't appear to have developed greyscale

 

Princess Maegelle Targaryen, a daughter of King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, died of greyscale.  Shireen Baratheon has a Targaryen great-grandmother.

 

Several members of the royal family died during the Great Spring Sickness.

 

Dany was feverish after her miscarriage/stillbirth and at the end of book 5 she has a fever and is sick from eating bad berries and/or drinking unclean water.

 

Targaryens can get sick and die like anyone else

Edited May 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[BlackberryJam]

IMO Lightbringer isn't an actual sword it's the Night's Watch, we are even told so in the NW Oath.

 

 

Jon has to reforge the Night's Watch into a weapon to defeat the Others. He tries and initially fails but will eventually succeed after he has been sacrificed (Jon himself is Nissa Nissa) and reborn as AA.

 

Admittedly the show has dropped the relevant line from the Oath but then it's not mentioned Lightbringer itself since the introduction of Stannis in season 2 IIRC so the idea of AA  having a special sword may have been dropped as well.

 

 

I thought that the show has put so much emphasis on Oathkeeper (and to a slightly lesser extent, Widow's Wail) with the cold open of S4, that Oathkeeper has to become Lightbringer, if there is a Lightbringer at all. I think that's Brienne (and Jaime's) final roles, to take the sword to the Wall.

 

If Longclaw were Lightbringer, I think they would have (or should have) changed the line to "Olly, bring me Longclaw" to emphasize the sword.

 

But yeah, AA might be out. And if it's the NIght's Watch...well...I think we need to hear the story on the show.

 

So...I'm interested in the possibility of a Melisandre and Sansa meeting. Mel has already met Arya and knows she's alive, but not exactly who she is. What will Mel see in Sansa? Or will it even get that far?

Edited May 10, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[GreyBunny]

I think the emphasis on Oathkeeper is because it's one of the swords forged from the Stark family sword.  I don't think it has anything to do with AA.  

 

I like the idea that the NW is the real Lightbringer, although what about Aemon's statement that it radiated both light and heat?  It alludes to an actual sword but perhaps that comment is just there to call out Stannis's sword as a fake.

Edited May 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[The Mormegil]

I think the emphasis on Oathkeeper is because it's one of the swords forged from the Stark family sword.  I don't think it has anything to do with AA.  

 

I like the idea that the NW is the real Lightbringer, although what about Aemon's statement that it radiated both light and heat?  It alludes to an actual sword but perhaps that comment is just there to call out Stannis's sword as a fake.

 

 

Again mentioned in the Oath

 

 

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn,

[benteen]

I wish we'd gotten the scene where Aemon asks he could "see" Lightbringer.  Would love a Stannis/Aemon/Mel/Sam scene.

[Hecate7]

Harry the Heir isn't Ramsay and arranged marriage isn't interchangeable with rape. Plenty of girls today are fine with the idea of their parents choosing a nice boy from a nice family for them. If Sansa's future storyline involves marrying Harry, that doesn't mean it's a minor adjustment to have her raped in her childhood home instead by the son of her brother's murderer, who happens to be Westeros' worst sadist.

 

How do you know she wasn't going to be raped in her childhood home by Harry the Heir? Also, you just said it won't be rape. Sansa agreed to the marriage, and is "fine with  the idea of a nice boy from a nice family" being chosen for her, or she would have refused, just as Littlefinger told her she could do. She CHOSE to stay at Winterfell and marry Ramsey, instead of riding away. That's more choice than Jeyne Poole ever got.

 

And I'm sure he won't rape her until the wedding night, so, you see? It won't be rape at all. It's a nice little marriage arranged for her by her uncle, in the usual tradition of arranged marriages. Just like the marriage Danaery's brother arranged for her. Just like the marriage arranged for Lyssa Arryn by her father, and the one arranged for Cersei Lannister by her father.

 

I think you're missing the point, here. The point is that any arranged marriage is a gamble. You can't know what you're getting into. And they are certainly not going to warn your father/uncle/brother: "Oh, he likes to torture animals, feed women to his dogs, flay the neighbors, etc...but I'm sure he'll treat your daughter/niece/sister like a princess, don't worry." They're going to present themselves as the best possible people.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

As to the Cersei/Jaime scene, the actors have said repeatedly that it was not written as rape, they didn't believe they were filming rape and that they, specifically LH, was not playing it as if she were being raped. So...some pretty crappy acting on her part? But this "they made Jaime a rapist" mantra just doesn't fit the intent of the scene, the writers, the actors....maybe the intent of the lighting director, the film editor and whoever scored it (as mentioned before), but not the intent of D&D

 

What that proved was that D&D are unclear on the definition of rape. They wrote a rape scene. The woman kept saying no, as Jaime was obviously thrusting away, and she never did say yes.

 

It was the dialogue, not the lighting, not LH's acting, not the musical score. They wrote a rape scene because they didn't realize that if you stick it in someone while they are still asking you please not to, for WHATEVER reason, it is rape. It doesn't matter why she's saying no. No, because someone will come in, no, my hair will get messed up, no, I'm a virgin and saving myself, no, I have a boyfriend/husband, no, we're relatives, no, I'm not on birth control, no, I need to go put in my diaphragm or otherwise prepare more before we do this, are ALL STILL NO. And no one except the person about to be penetrated, gets to judge the validity, sincerity, or appropriateness of the No. They wrote a rape scene because they thought it was hot, and they thought no one would call them on it.

 

If they didn't mean to write a rape scene, then they needed to give poor LH at least one yes, and perhaps let her start tugging at his clothes or something.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Hecate7

[BlackberryJam]

I think they were definitely clear that no one ever, under any circumstances, was supposed to find that scene hot. They said they expected people to find it disturbing because of what it was, incest beside a corpse. To say they wanted people to think it was hot is just setting up a straw man and assuming terrible motives onto people because you dislike something they did. That really weakens your point.

 

And well, I watched that scene 15-30 times after it first aired because I didn't view it as rape the first time, was shocked at the outrage and watched it over and over to see what I missed. And what I found is that we all have our own interpretations based on our own personal histories. 

 

And do we know the script didn't have her saying yes? Do we know that wasn't left on the editing room floor? Do we know that her direction wasn't to clutch at him as if she wanted him? Well, considering LH said she was playing it that way, (Salt Lake ComicCon, LH says she was playing it as if Cersei needed him in that moment), this "Oh, they wrote rape" does not hold water.

[DigitalCount]

I haven't watched it in a while, but I think that Cersei wraps her legs around Jaime and pulls him toward her before he, um, begins in earnest. While I've never liked the idea (and I'm given to understand this is no longer a defense) I think a reasonable person could see that as implied consent. On the other hand, one could probably argue that she did so out of fear, but since we know her motives as stated by those who would know, we can conclude that she didn't. It's not anywhere near ideal, but it's what we have.

[SeanC]

Huh, I was pretty sure that Oldtown was cut from the show, but there was a whole scene this week that really didn't do anything other than introduce the idea of it and Sam and Gilly in connection to it.  There must be something really important there, given how many other plots have been culled.

[Winnief]

Huh, I was pretty sure that Oldtown was cut from the show, but there was a whole scene this week that really didn't do anything other than introduce the idea of it and Sam and Gilly in connection to it.  There must be something really important there, given how many other plots have been culled.

 

 

Well, I think we're going to get the Ironborn attack on Oldtown in Season 6 at least, and possibly some important discoveries at the Citadel as well-though I doubt they'll bother with the Maeser conspiracy.  But plenty of Sam as Badass and maybe some Randyll Tarly since they've been talking about him. 

 

I really, REALLY hope the theory that Shireen joins Sam and Gilly for Oldtown to escape the flames is true but I'm truly terrified for that poor kid's safety at present.

[benteen]

I agree.  Nothing good can come out of her being so close to the battle at Winterfell.

 

It looks like Sam and Gilly will definitely be heading to the Citadel, at the very least for Sam to do more research on The White Walkers.  I was surprised that Aemon made it through this episode alive.  It's possible he could still be heading down there with them...or at least part of the way.

[Winnief]

It looks like Sam and Gilly will definitely be heading to the Citadel, at the very least for Sam to do more research on The White Walkers.  I was surprised that Aemon made it through this episode alive.  It's possible he could still be heading down there with them...or at least part of the way.

 

Makes me wonder if on the show, Aemon may get some inkling to the truth about Jon, but that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.  I do believe though, that Aemon's affinity for Jon and almost paternal attitude towards him was in part because on some subconscious level he sensed the family connection.

 

And yeah, Sam and Gilly are going to Oldtown, probably because it *will* be attacked in Season 6 by the Iron Born.  Also all the talk about Randyll Tarly, made me wonder if we might actually be meeting the son of a bitch sometime as the show's next Truly Awful Father Figure.  I've even heard theories that if the Tyrell's get wiped out, the Tarly's might be the new Paramount Lords of the Reach-and that might just be Sam.  Though I prefer to think of Sam as being another Septimus Barth.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Winnief

[Avaleigh]

First, Cersei asks him to please not do it. Then she tells him a couple of times forcefully as she hits at his chest to "stop" it and somewhere in all of this he starts ripping at her clothing. She turns her head away from him at one point and twice says it's not right. It was a crystal clear rape scene as far as I'm concerned and if they'd really wanted to make it less confusing they should have added some extra dialogue. 

 

I totally get being skeeved out by certain parts of the fandom. (Our observations about westeros and reddit certainly seem to be on the same page.) That being said, the sick, demented little perverts who are wishing rape on characters like Cersei, Sansa, Daenerys, and others are going to have twisted takes on any version of this story that D&D end up giving us. I don't think that D&D should necessarily have to avoid a certain storyline (or all rape) because of the vile things that will be said later online by these pathetic jerks. These types are going to say horrible shit no matter what IMO. 

 

I don't want to see Sansa raped but I won't know until I see how it's treated to see if Sansa is going to be put in the fridge or whatever the hell. I also think that there are certain people who would still hate the story even if Theon weren't apart of it at all. I've seen every rape that's happened on this show be objected to and sometimes I get it (Jaime/Cersei) and other times I don't and think that it makes sense to the story (Craster's Keep, Drogo/Dany). With Ramsay and Sansa so far it seems to make sense to the story. Again, I would prefer to not have Sansa's character raped at all but I don't know that I agree that this can't be treated as something that will ultimately be apart of her journey into becoming this strong and powerful character who ends up being an asset and help to the realm. 

 

I guess I disagree so far that Sansa's story is necessarily ruined if she ends up going through some awful marital rape with Ramsay. I have to see how it goes but given how Roose still more or less has Ramsay in check I have to think that Ramsay wouldn't be so stupid as to be as sick and disgusting as book Ramsay is with Jeyne. Maybe I'm giving D&D way too much credit but I can't think that they'd believe that most people would want to see that. I think it's even possible that one of the most horrifying aspects of the scene (scenes?) will be what Ramsay says to her as opposed to what he does sexually. 

 

I may very well end up changing my opinion on Ramsay and Sansa but so far it isn't going to be a dealbreaker for me. I guess we'll see next week. 

Makes me wonder if on the show, Aemon may get some inkling to the truth about Jon, but that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.  I do believe though, that Aemon's affinity for Jon and almost paternal attitude towards him was in part because on some subconscious level he sensed the family connection.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I noticed on the AGOT reread that Aemon seems to get this connection with Tyrion as well. I almost got chills when Aemon stared at Tyrion's face even though he can't see him because it was like he could see him and he was getting a vibe he just wasn't sure what it was. 

[Danny Franks]

I honestly don't give a crap whether it makes sense in the story for Sansa to be raped, because that makes no difference. The writers still chose to construct the story in such a way to put her in a position to be raped. And I am incredibly dubious about their reasoning for doing it, because they have a shitty track record of including things for titillation and to shock the audience. I wouldn't be at all surprised if their discussion about putting Sansa in Winterfell actually began with them saying something like, 'it'd be cool if we could replace Jeyne Pool with Sansa in Theon's storyline. How can we make that work?'

 

But they haven't made it work, because there is no logical explanation for a Bolton, one of the Crown's loyal subjects, to not hand over someone who has been accused of regicide and flight from justice. Sorry, but however much Roose might covet the Stark name, he wouldn't risk angering the Lannisters (even if they no longer have Tywin). He's spent every moment so far doing his best to avoid ever exposing himself to risk.

 

Someone in the episode thread just made a frankly hilarious and spot on comment that Sansa is doing the same stuff now that she was doing in seasons 1 and 2, only now she's wearing a black dress. Character growth!

[Advance35]

How do you know she wasn't going to be raped in her childhood home by Harry the Heir? Also, you just said it won't be rape. Sansa agreed to the marriage, and is "fine with  the idea of a nice boy from a nice family" being chosen for her, or she would have refused, just as Littlefinger told her she could do. She CHOSE to stay at Winterfell and marry Ramsey, instead of riding away. That's more choice than Jeyne Poole ever got.

 

 

GRRM isn't afraid to do horrible things to his characters.   He's known for it.   Since Sansa is marrying Ramsay in show (based on the preview) I'm assuming she'll marry Harry The Heir before the end of TWOW.     Maybe he will show himself to be a bad hat before it's all over as well, who knows.    I don't think it can be said what's necessary and what isn't until the end of the books has been written in read, until that time everyone is speculating and it's only the show runners that know where these characters will end up.

 

Though I have to say I'm liking Sansa's scenes so far this year.   Seeing her deal with Roose, Ramsay and Theon has been a nice change of pace.   

[Oscirus]

Ignoring the fact that we now have the village and Brienne watching Sansa's back, there's also a big ole war headed her way which should at the very least delay anything happening to Sansa anytime soon.  As a matter of fact, I feel as if they made Sansa too safe. There's hardly any tension for me in these scenes.

 

 

[Boundary]

I'm glad they've made Sansa too safe. I wouldn't have stayed with the show otherwise. 

[Ailianna]

I just can't believe that RAMSEY said "The North Remembers."  Way to pervert what was a strong rallying cry.  And also, isn't part of the point that the Boltons don't understand about the North remembering?  Him saying that did nothing for the story, but ruined something that I liked and respected about the books, even if the show has thus far almost entirely ignored it.

[Hecate7]

Princess Maegelle Targaryen, a daughter of King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, died of greyscale.  Shireen Baratheon has a Targaryen great-grandmother.

 

Several members of the royal family died during the Great Spring Sickness.

 

Dany was feverish after her miscarriage/stillbirth and at the end of book 5 she has a fever and is sick from eating bad berries and/or drinking unclean water.

 

Targaryens can get sick and die like anyone else

 

While that is very true, it is also true that there is a folk belief that they do not get sick, and so this does qualify as forshadowing. There's been a great deal of forshadowing Tyrion as a secret Targ, including the weirdness of his introduction to Maester Aemon.

[Winnief]

I just can't believe that RAMSEY said "The North Remembers."  Way to pervert what was a strong rallying cry.  And also, isn't part of the point that the Boltons don't understand about the North remembering?  Him saying that did nothing for the story, but ruined something that I liked and respected about the books, even if the show has thus far almost entirely ignored it.

 

 

I think the point there was to show how the Boltons may use that saying, while completely missing the point of it since they can't understand concepts like nobility, loyalty, or compassion which is why they're about to get sucker punched like they've never seen. 

 

And I can't tell you how relieved I am that Sansa seems to have some safety guards/escape hatches on hand.  Watching her with Theon and the Bolton's was spell binding in a sick way.  I am really drooling for her to have a one on one talk with Theon soon.

[Avaleigh]

While that is very true, it is also true that there is a folk belief that they do not get sick, and so this does qualify as forshadowing. There's been a great deal of forshadowing Tyrion as a secret Targ, including the weirdness of his introduction to Maester Aemon.

Plus, I still say it's pretty odd that you have people like Viserys and Dany who even when they were struggling in Essos and didn't really have any money they didn't get sick at all. Most people get sick every once in awhile and Viserys and Dany didn't seem to at all. I thought Dany was having a miscarriage on top of possibly food poisoning in ADWD which is different to me than catching the pale mare or greyscale. Also, it isn't that the Targaryens don't get sick it just seems like they're less likely to get sick and that there might even be some diseases that they just don't get for some reason. Having Tyrion gulping that contaminated water and being submerged while Jon ends up being the one to get infected. Maybe Tyrion is just lucky or maybe the greyscale won't hit him for a long time but I feel like the Targ thing could be part of the reason. 

[Advance35]

Ignoring the fact that we now have the village and Brienne watching Sansa's back, there's also a big ole war headed her way which should at the very least delay anything happening to Sansa anytime soon.  As a matter of fact, I feel as if they made Sansa too safe. There's hardly any tension for me in these scenes.

 

I agree to an extent.   But for me the caveat is that we have 2 seasons left of this show.   IF she survives the war coming to Winterfell (something I'm not ENTIRELY certain of, I think everyone in this storyline BUT Sophie has all but confirmed their return next season) we would still have quite a few episodes left in this saga.  NO way does Sansa get to sit in Winterfell and take a deep breath content to have survived all she's had to endure over the past few years.

 

Though I get what you mean.  I worry D&D have become TO fearful of online outcry.   I hate when show runners allow shows to be dictated by fans, it never ends well.  I'm trying to tell myself that if something horrible is going to happen to Sansa in the books they'll stick to it despite certain quarters not being pleased.

 

I did like that we were shown that the "small folk" are keeping Sansa's presence on the hush hush.   Yet another reason Kings Landing probably doesn't know of Sansa's emergence.  

 

And I can't tell you how relieved I am that Sansa seems to have some safety guards/escape hatches on hand.  Watching her with Theon and the Bolton's was spell binding in a sick way.  I am really drooling for her to have a one on one talk with Theon soon.

 

 

Her scenes have been some of the best of the season IMO.  And with Sansa in the front row I think we are going to find out the fate of Stannis in the battle for Winterfell.   I am so excited, I'm wondering if the battle for Winterfell will be Episode 9.   

Edited May 11, 2015 by Advance35

[Matt K]

NO way does Sansa get to sit in Winterfell and take a deep breath content to have survived all she's had to endure over the past few years.

 

I actually think its fitting if she does.  At this point in the story (show-wise) it would make sense that Stanis would appoint someone to be in charge once he goes south and who better than Sansa.  Plus he's want someone rallying the bannermen either for the defense from Whitewalkers or just to help against King's Landing.  It would make sense that Sansa would be the perfect choice to do so as she is in fact a Stark.  

[MrWhyt]

I think the point there was to show how the Boltons may use that saying, while completely missing the point of it since they can't understand concepts like nobility, loyalty, or compassion which is why they're about to get sucker punched like they've never seen. 

 

Yeah Ramsey was totally playing "Hey i'm from North, just like you, lets be friends" card, he doesn't understand that what The North is remembering is The Starks and their betrayal by the Boltons/Lannisters/Freys.

[Maximum Taco]

Yeah Ramsey was totally playing "Hey i'm from North, just like you, lets be friends" card, he doesn't understand that what The North is remembering is The Starks and their betrayal by the Boltons/Lannisters/Freys.

 

That's an interesting take.

 

I just thought he was using it to deliberately antagonize. He's taking their rallying cry and mocking it.

 

Ramsay doesn't seem the type to try and placate Sansa or pretend they are on the same side. He's the type to push her until she breaks. Bringing up what Theon did to "Bran" and "Rickon" and deliberately skirting the issue of what his own father did to Robb and Cat, is his way of pushing her mentally.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[GreyBunny]

While that is very true, it is also true that there is a folk belief that they do not get sick, and so this does qualify as forshadowing. There's been a great deal of forshadowing Tyrion as a secret Targ, including the weirdness of his introduction to Maester Aemon.

I saw it as Viserys running his mouth and if Dany buys into it (and she seems to), it's something that can come back to bite her in the butt.  There's also a folk belief that Targaryens don't burn and, despite Dany's one-time dragon-hatching event, that has been shown to not be true.  Aegon and the burning of Summerhall, the Targs that got torched during the civil war including Lady Baela and Queen Rhaenyra, the Mad King's belief that if he burns King's Landing with wildfire with himself in it he'll be reborn as a dragon, Viserys and his golden helm, Dany sweltering like everyone else in the Red Waste, and flinching when her dragons breathe fire toward her.  

 

I forget which Lannister it was but one of them said they can believe that they're lions all they want but at the end of the day they're human just like everyone else and can die just as easily.  The same is true of any of the families, if they believe they are their house sigils too literally or buy too heavily into their house mythologies, it can come back to haunt them.

Edited May 12, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Hecate7]

Absolutely, Greybunny, but use of the symbolism in the narrative certainly counts as forshadowing.

[Holmbo]

Aemon is a Targ and he got sick from the boat ride.

[Shanna]

Aemon is a Targ and he got sick from the boat ride.

He is 100 years old. I'm not sure how much targs do and don't get sick, but they definitely die so they break at some point.

Just saw kill the boy and now I'm digesting. I just cringe when Ramsey is in the room and want him to die. I don't want him to touch Sansa at this point. I don't care about any rationalizing of why it would fit a story, I don't want it to happen.

[GreyBunny]

Absolutely, Greybunny, but use of the symbolism in the narrative certainly counts as forshadowing.

I disagree.  If Targs get sick like everyone else, and they do, having Tyrion not get sick isn't foreshadowing his alleged Targaryen ancestry.  It's just an example of someone who happened to not get sick at one particular time. 

[Brn2bwild]

I saw it as Viserys running his mouth and if Dany buys into it (and she seems to), it's something that can come back to bite her in the butt.  There's also a folk belief that Targaryens don't burn and, despite Dany's one-time dragon-hatching event, that has been shown to not be true.  Aegon and the burning of Summerhall, the Targs that got torched during the civil war including Lady Baela and Queen Rhaenyra, the Mad King's belief that if he burns King's Landing with wildfire with himself in it he'll be reborn as a dragon, Viserys and his golden helm, Dany sweltering like everyone else in the Red Waste, and flinching when her dragons breathe fire toward her.  

 

Speaking of Viserys, and this is changing the subject a bit, but have there been any spoilers about Harry Lloyd on set?  I always loved the chapter where Dany sees Viserys while wandering around in the Dothraki sea, and given that we had some Harry Lloyd sightings not long ago (his short with Maisie and GRRM, for instance), it might be a possibility.  

[Avaleigh]

I disagree.  If Targs get sick like everyone else, and they do, having Tyrion not get sick isn't foreshadowing his alleged Targaryen ancestry.  It's just an example of someone who happened to not get sick at one particular time.

I disagree that they get sick like everyone else. Not having an illness as a child *is* unusual IMO. Surely Dany would remember having been sick in her childhood but she doesn't. Instead she thinks about how Viserys used to say that they were above catching illnesses. While I think it's clear that Viserys was exaggerating I think there was a grain of truth to what he said in that Targayens don't seem to get ill as easily. It's not saying that they're totally immune to everything but that this is just another way they're a little different than everybody else.

[Holmbo]

Speaking of Viserys, and this is changing the subject a bit, but have there been any spoilers about Harry Lloyd on set? I always loved the chapter where Dany sees Viserys while wandering around in the Dothraki sea, and given that we had some Harry Lloyd sightings not long ago (his short with Maisie and GRRM, for instance), it might be a possibility.

That would be great if it happened. I feel like we'd heard something about it if there had actually been filming.

[GreyBunny]

Along with many of the royal family dying from the Spring Sickness, Dany getting sick twice, Shireen's greyscale, and a royal Targareyn daughter getting greyscale, in the show Jon got sick as an infant.  Aerys's wife had a whole string of miscarriages and stillbirths, many Targs were stillborn, born deformed, or mentally challenged, and many Targs suffered from madness and mental instability, enough that they had a reputation for it, even Barristan held back to watch Dany to see if she was a nutjob like her father.  Madness is an illness too, brought on by chemical imbalances in the brain.  Lots of sick Targs.

 

If anything they seem to get sick more than "regular people," mainly due to weaknesses from all of the inbreeding.

Edited May 14, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Oscirus]

I think originally the plan was to make Tyrion a targ but as the years passed by, the plan changed. I find it hard to believe that a show that's heavy on foreshadowing and history wouldn't bother to play up Aerys obsession with Joanna if they were going to go that route.  Not to mention, I doubt a proud man like Tywin would keep Tyrion if he had any doubts that he wasn't his.

[WearyTraveler]

I tend to think that if Tywin thought there was even a tiny, tiny, minuscule chance that Tyron was not his, Tyron would have been toast as soon as Joanna kicked the bucket. 

[GreyBunny]

I think the Tyrion is a Targ idea was hinted at in the books it's been established that you have to have Valyrian/Targ blood to be able to ride a dragon.  If the Targ blood required rule doesn't exist in the show, they don't need to say anything about Joanna and Aerys. 

[Hecate7]

Something was happening to the Targaryen blood with Aerys II, I'm pretty sure of it. It was twisting in on itself, reacting to some magical storm.

 

All three of Tywin Lannister's children show signs of being Targs, and it would serve him right if all three of them were. Cersei and Jaime are incestuous in the Targ tradition, plus Cersei is enthralled with staring into flames, just like Danaerys is starting to be. The coy little refrain, "we're not Targaryens," is probably dramatic irony.

 

The fire priestess was staring at something when she saw Tyrion. King's blood? I disagree that Tywin would have drowned Tyrion if he doubted. He did doubt. He doubted every single day. Tyrion in the books is a chimera---one black eye, one green, with white hair unlike any Lannister, which ought to be kind of a giveaway. He dreams of having two heads, one of which laughs, and the other of which cries, as he kills Jaime. He longed for a dragon. Etc....Of course, as Tommen's uncle he has king's blood without having to be a secret Targ. Jon Snow's eyes are described as black, but they might simply be such a dark purple that people assume they're black. Tyrion's one black eye might be the same way.

 

Tyrion warmed to Snow and immediately became avuncular. If he is half Targ, (literally, in this case--conjoined fraternal Lannister and Targaryen twins, one of whom absorbed the other in the womb) then he's half Danaerys' brother/Jon Snow's uncle, and half Tywin Lannister's son. The chimera thing is fairly common, but I don't expect to see it on the show.

 

I have always had a theory about the Targaryens, that they tend to favor their mothers. Jon Snow looks like Lyanna. Viserys and Danaerys look like Rhaella, and so did Rhaegar. Meanwhile Rhaenys looked like Elia Martell, and I'll bet Aegon would have, too, had he lived. If my theory is correct, then Cersei and Jaime might be the children of Joanna and Aerys, because they look exactly like her. Book!Tyrion doesn't fit this theory, with his snow white hair and his black eye. Shiera Seastar was odd-eyed and white-haired like Tyrion.

 

Tyrion's dwarfism by itself is not really sufficient to explain why Tywin is so adamant about not leaving him Casterly Rock, not truly treating him as his son, and his moment of considering drowning Tyrion. It would be if Tywin were completely nutty in other ways, but he isn't. So I really do think that there's more to the story than we've been told. I suspect it won't fully unfold on the show because it's a bit complex. But both Tyrion and Jaime have had dreams that suggest that all is not as it seems, in the Lannister family.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

Hecate7 are you saying Tyrion consists of two twins one from Tywin and one from Aerys? Does that even exist in real life? Like the twins from different father's?

[WearyTraveler]

Hecate7 are you saying Tyrion consists of two twins one from Tywin and one from Aerys? Does that even exist in real life? Like the twins from different father's?

 

It can happen, but I still think that one secret Targ is enough.