Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Lady S.]

Lena's brought up the Walk more than once and given the impression that Cersei nudity is being saved for that scene.

[Avaleigh]

I figured they'd either give her a bald wig or make her wear some head covering, or maybe even a very short and messy wig as though her hair has been hacked at with a knife sort of like what Yoren did to Arya.

Re: Sansa being the younger, more beautiful queen, I agree that Sansa is the best bet with Dany coming in at a distant second. I was fond of the idea of it being Myrcella until her encounter with the Darkstar. I think that automatically took her out of the equation. That being said, since they're going full speed ahead with Maggy's prophecy, I'd like them to make it more of a mystery for the audience so that they think there are four or maybe even five candidates if we throw Melisandre into the discussion since some think she's ultimately responsible for Joffrey's death. Margaery--I think she's easily the least interesting choice. Only Arianne I think would be more disappointing to me.

[Carrie Ann]

Ugh, I hate that scene so much, and I dread seeing it on screen, especially after the response to the rape scene this season. There was just a tone of...relishing seeing Cersei be punished that was really gross to me. The pain and abuse she endures always seems to be related to sex and her gender, and it's uncomfortable. I anticipate a lot more of that coming up next season.

[WearyTraveler]

WearyTraveler - Can you please get a job with the writing staff for the show? 

 

Would that I could! (he, he!)  Maybe we should start a petition, how many signatures do you think will be needed to convince HBO to hire me?

[Avaleigh]

What I really hated about the walk was the audience paticipation. I've always disagreed with the idea that the crowd would be well behaved if Margaery were forced to do a walk as well. She wouldn't have had the shouts of "brotherfucker!" sure, but I'm pretty sure there would have been plenty of "Wanna suck on this, Your Grace?" The way people are allowed to participate in someone else's punishment and behave in ways that are just all around in bad taste was really disturbing. It's not just the misogyny either because I know I'd have been equally disturbed if Ned had been paraded naked through KL before his execution; same if Joffrey had punished Loras that way for being a so-called deviant.

I'm really interested in seeing how they play the High Septon and whether or not he'll be written as the misogynistic, power-seeking bastard I think he is or if he'll be made into a more noble character. It's not just his treatment of Cersei but his comments about women, widows, and Margaery that makes me think he seems to have issues all around when it comes to women. Probably power as well.

[Minneapple]

Re: next season, assuming it happens then, I think I'm most nervous about how they'll portray the Walk. I don't mind at all saying that I hope it's toned down in terms of how much they'll choose to show her body. I'd rather them focus more on the difficult job the guards have because of the hostility of the crowds. It's really too bad that we won't be able to hear her thoughts but I think having a voiceover would be terrible to put it mildly. As long as they keep in the 'I am not afraid/You should be' exchange I think that's the main chilling line that's needed during the actual walk. Plus who if anyone could Cersei talk to when she compares herself to her grandfather's mistress and how she wants to act more proud and dignified than that woman did. Having her in jail beforehand unable to communicate with anyone they're going to have quite a job conveying her state of mind during all of this. I guess it could be Kevan but somehow that doesn't seem right.

Yeah, that's going to be a tough one. The walk scene in the books stands out because of Cersei's internal monologue. But a voiceover would be horrible. Maybe she could have an exposition-y monologue while the septas are hacking off her hair so at least to get in some of the stuff about her grandfather's mistress.

[Zalyn]

Ugh, I hate that scene so much, and I dread seeing it on screen, especially after the response to the rape scene this season. There was just a tone of...relishing seeing Cersei be punished that was really gross to me. The pain and abuse she endures always seems to be related to sex and her gender, and it's uncomfortable. I anticipate a lot more of that coming up next season.

Count me as apprehensive too.  I risk offending some devoted book readers, but some moments like those make me not particularly bothered at the delay in the final books.  I do feel that there was more... loving attention paid to details of that scene when comparable or more devastating events happening to men (Theon) happened completely off the page.  Cersei is a villain, yes, but this treatment just confirms and justifies why she's so angry and bitter (hell, I would be too!). Robert B. would never have been trotted out as a whore despite doing plenty of it himself.

[Haldebrandt]

It's literally a slut-shaming walk.  Even though it takes place in a fictional medieval universe, A LOT of people in real life aren't going to like that.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Skeeter22]

It's literally a slut-shaming walk. Even though it takes place in a fictional medieval universe, A LOT of people in real life aren't going to like that.

I'm more worried about the people who will like it. There will be a lot of them.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, Robert Baratheon had sex with countless women, fathered sixteen bastards, was sexually abusive to Cersei to the point where he was embarrassed by his behavior yet Cersei is the one who is condemned for her sexuality when, apart from her forced union to Robert and her long term relationship with Jaime she has only had sex with three or four other men in her life. On the show it's just Jaime and Lancel so it's going to be even more difficult to throw around the accusation that she's supposedly been the queen of whores this whole time.

I agree that there's already a rift between Jaime and Cersei but I think we still need to see Jaime being told the truth about her. I also think it would be good if the audience could be reminded that he's been completely loyal to her his entire life. I don't know if the rape scene ruined that or not but I think the fact that he's never been with another woman is an important part of understanding Jaime's character and the Jaime/Cersei relationship.

[Minneapple]

Cersei is a villain, yes, but this treatment just confirms and justifies why she's so angry and bitter

Oh, absolutely. Cersei can be downright vile, but that doesn't mean she's wrong about the gender politics of the society she lives in. Men sleep around and father children (who bear the shame with their last names) and there are few consequences. But Cersei uses sex as a weapon, as a way to gain power, and she's punished for it with the walk of shame.

[Winnief]

 

I agree that there's already a rift between Jaime and Cersei but I think we still need to see Jaime being told the truth about her. I also think it would be good if the audience could be reminded that he's been completely loyal to her his entire life. I don't know if the rape scene ruined that or not but I think the fact that he's never been with another woman is an important part of understanding Jaime's character and the Jaime/Cersei relationship.

 

My strategy is to pretend the rape scene never happened since apparently the producers didn't realize they had filmed a rape scene and it seems to have been a result of poor communication all around with none of the characters referencing it ever again.  When my mother watches this show on DVD, I will tell her to fast forward through that scene and explain why.

 

 

Oh, absolutely. Cersei can be downright vile, but that doesn't mean she's wrong about the gender politics of the society she lives in. Men sleep around and father children (who bear the shame with their last names) and there are few consequences. But Cersei uses sex as a weapon, as a way to gain power, and she's punished for it with the walk of shame.

 

Seriously.  Had we seen Cersei punished in almost any other way for any other sin, I would have been fine with it-hell I would have cheered it on because she's a truly horrible human being whose crimes are beyond reckoning-but that was perhaps the one way I couldn't feel easy with.  They better be really REALLY careful how they handle that.  Hopefully Nutter when directing that bit, (I'm almost positive it will be in Episode Nine) will do a defter job than He Who Shall Not Be Named.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Winnief

[Meredith Quill]

This was the reality of the lives of medieval women, whether a Queen, a noblewoman or a commoner, the story is merely reflecting that inequality. Kathryn Howard lost her head for cheating on Henry VIII, yet he'd been a philanderer his whole life. Cersei gets off lightly in comparison to real life.

[Carrie Ann]

Sure, but this is a fantasy series, not a historical one. Fantasy authors who base their Other Worlds on ours are still making choices about what their world looks like. GRRM kept the patriarchy and misogyny of medieval society while downplaying other things, like religious and racial intolerance, for example. The religion piece is becoming more important as of Book 5, but there hasn't been a single all-powerful Church force prior to that.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[sev]

What I really hated about the walk was the audience paticipation. I've always disagreed with the idea that the crowd would be well behaved if Margaery were forced to do a walk as well. She wouldn't have had the shouts of "brotherfucker!" sure, but I'm pretty sure there would have been plenty of "Wanna suck on this, Your Grace?" The way people are allowed to participate in someone else's punishment and behave in ways that are just all around in bad taste was really disturbing. It's not just the misogyny either because I know I'd have been equally disturbed if Ned had been paraded naked through KL before his execution; same if Joffrey had punished Loras that way for being a so-called deviant.

 

Sadly, it's completely realistic. Not further than couple of centuries ago, hangings were public events, and, I'd even say, considered entertainment.

[Haldebrandt]

Sure, but this is a fantasy series, not a historical one. Fantasy authors who base their Other Worlds on ours are still making choices about what their world looks like. GRRM kept the patriarchy and misogyny of medieval society while downplaying other things, like religious and racial intolerance, for example. The religion piece is becoming more important as of Book 5, but there hasn't been a single all-powerful Church force prior to that.

 

I don't know.  Sure, he could have chosen a non-patriarchal society but it wouldn't merely be some other version of ASOIAF.  Entire characters would vanish.  Others would have such different motivations as to be entirely different people.  The very fabric of the society would be different (patrilineal bloodlines, inheritance, marriages, names, family structure, etc..), and the result would be an entirely different story.  Why would someone who clearly likes this story, want that? I don't really understand this sort of criticism, to be honest. 

 

ETA: There is only so much you can change while maintaining a "credible" medieval setting reminiscent of real life, which clearly was GRRM's goal, as he has never been shy about his real life inspirations.  To say that GRRM didn't have to chose patriarchy, is basically to say that he didn't have to write this story.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[magdalene]

My feelings for Cersei range from dislike to loathing but I hate that walk of shame scene with a power of a thousand suns. I not only hate the slut shaming aspect of it but also that it invites the worst aspects of human beings to come out in reaction to it.

[Carrie Ann]

 

I don't know.  Sure, he could have chosen a non-patriarchal society, but then it wouldn't merely be some other version of ASOIAF. Entire characters would vanish.  Others would have such different motivations as to be entirely different people.  The very fabric of the society would be different, and the result would be an entirely different story.  Why would someone who clearly likes this story, want that? I don't really understand this sort of criticism, to be honest.

 

No, I'm not saying that he should have done that. I'm saying that GRRM is not beyond judgment for the choices he makes in creating his world, because it's not historical fact. He's picking and choosing what he wants in his world, and how things play out. He wants this one to be a patriarchy, where sexual violence is widespread and women are oppressed in every way possible. Sometimes they subvert that oppression in awesome ways, and I cheer. Other times, they are punished and abused in ways that make me side-eye GRRM/D&D.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Winnief]

 

No, I'm not saying that he should have done that. I'm saying that GRRM is not beyond judgment for the choices he makes in creating his world, because it's not historical fact. He's picking and choosing what he wants in his world. He wants this one to be a patriarchy, where sexual violence is widespread and women are oppressed in every way possible. Sometimes I side-eye whether that depiction exploits that violence for titillation, or whether it judges it.

 

That's my problem too-not that he depicts violence and misogyny but the gratuitous way the books seem to revel in it sometimes to the point where it seems like ghoulish torture porn at points-and it's even worse seeing it on screen.

[lawless]

Tyrion is a self obsorbed, self pitying jerk who occasionally empathizes with other downtrodden characters and does something helpful before returning to his wine and whores and woe is me attitude.  I'd like non readers to see that killing Shae truly is in character for him.  For him she was just another in a long line of people who mocked him so when he found her in a vulnerable position he used her as a stand in for all the mockers and abusers (and beetles).

I agree with this characterization of Book Tyrion.  But I feel like the show is a parallel universe to the Game of Thrones books in which things can be a little different, and Show Tyrion is a fairly decent hearted person (particularly for a Lannister raised by Tywin -- the Vladimir Putin of Westeros).  Even on the Show he's not a saint, as he certainly can be a privileged, self-centered, drunken, hedonist, who has an ego that kept him from running with Shae to the Free Cities when he had the chance.  He's not above malicious and vengeful thoughts either, as he demonstrated during his trial.  But still, by Westerosi standards at least, a decent person who does have empathy for others and exhibits none of the Lannister sadism Cersei and Joffrey displayed.  Since he is different on the Show, and I like him a lot of the Show, I'd just as soon have the Show continue to portray him sympathetically, albeit down, out, depressed and self-pitying. 

 

For me, this means not killing Shae.  I really started to turn on Tyrion in the Books when he strangled her, and particularly since his chapters afterward didn't seem to indicate that he was remorseful about it, or that he has any understanding of her perspective.  So . . . I am hoping against hope that they change this detail, have part of Tyrion's murder of his father be related to a reveal that he and Cersei coerced Shae's testimony, and that he banished her from Westeros (maybe, Tywin could also be ambiguous about it and hint that he may have also just killed her), and all of it, combined with the Tysha reveal, drives Tyrion to kill him.  Tyrion could demand to know what happened to Shae, and Tywin could refuse to answer the question other than to say that he sent her where whores go, which could be to her deathbed, or could be anywhere.  I'd rather watch that, very much so, than see Shae killed by Tyrion for betraying and humiliating him.  Particularly in light of recent events, but the film has already been shot so I'll just have to see what happens.

 

I think I'm most nervous about how they'll portray the Walk. I don't mind at all saying that I hope it's toned down in terms of how much they'll choose to show her body. I'd rather them focus more on the difficult job the guards have because of the hostility of the crowds. It's really too bad that we won't be able to hear her thoughts but I think having a voiceover would be terrible to put it mildly.

I am very nervous about the Walk too.  As I understand it, there is real world precedent for the Walk of Shame as well as Book precedent, and it seems to be an extremely important development in the Book, but it's a very delicate thing to get right in terms of tone.  As posters above noted, it's literally a Slut Shaming walk, because at that point, though the audience knows all the awful things Cersei has done, what the Sept is actually punishing her for is being a sexually active widow.  It's horrifically misogynistic, and intended not just to punish Cersei but to send a message to every man and woman watching about what women are allowed to do and not allowed to do, and what happens to them if they break the rules.  There is no equivalent slut shaming walk for men, and it's important that though the Show may portray Cersei as increasingly despicable, that the Show not inadvertently communicate to the audience the same message the Septons are sending.  The Show has to communicate that the Walk is awful and wrong, even if Cersei is a despicable person who deserves punishment.  Her punishment should be for her actual crimes, and should not be premised on humiliating and dehumanizing her in relation to her gender.

 

The other awful aspect of the Walk of Shame that is independent of gender and Slut Shaming is that it had the makings of a lynch mob.  The mob was initially under some semblance of control and Cersei handled it ok as she began, but by the end, control was lost and the mob was churning.  The Walk ended just before things really got out of control.  That's another aspect of the Walk that requires sensitivity to portray responsibly.  The Show also has to communicate how dangerous and wrong mob violence is, even against an unlikeable person like Cersei.  I think responsibility requires that the Show should not make the viewing audience part of the mob -- they have to show us what is happening, without inviting us to join in the mentality of the mob -- or if then Show does elicit feelings in the viewer in keeping with the mob's mentality, it has to simultaneously let us know there's something not ok with those feelings.  It can be done, but it requires a decision and concerted effort to film it that way.

 

Given where Cersie's character is going, and given the sexposition and use of nude female contortionists as entertainment at the Purple Wedding, I am concerned.  I hope Michelle McLaren directs -- she directed many episodes of Breaking Bad and sometimes the Walking Dead, and I also think this show.  Direction will be very, very important to pull the Walk off right.

 

As for her interior thoughts, I think there are "silent" sisters of the Sept -- perhaps Cersei could tell one of them about the incident with her grandfather's mistress during the head shaving, and communicate her thoughts that way.

[ElizaD]

If Kevan is the one to inform Cersei that she's being offered the walk, it would be natural for her to mention her outrage at the thought of being treated the way her grandfather's common mistress was treated by her father. Surely it would be at least as worthy of screentime as the Jaime/Tyrion talk this week.

 

Jane Shore, the real world example GRRM has mentioned, wore a kirtle during her walk instead of going naked, so in this case the Westerosi punishment was harsher than the medieval English one.

 

For practical reasons, giving Cersei a short messy wig might be the easiest option: a bald wig might look too fake but a short wig would still send the message that Cersei has been denied her power hairdos.

 

No, I'm not saying that he should have done that. I'm saying that GRRM is not beyond judgment for the choices he makes in creating his world, because it's not historical fact. He's picking and choosing what he wants in his world, and how things play out. He wants this one to be a patriarchy, where sexual violence is widespread and women are oppressed in every way possible. Sometimes they subvert that oppression in awesome ways, and I cheer. Other times, they are punished and abused in ways that make me side-eye GRRM/D&D.

 

It's also GRRM's choice to focus on sexual violence against women and ignore sexual violence against men. How many readers are really worried about Jon's safety when he's a pretty boy in an all-male environment or about the safety of any male character who's in the hands of enemies or traveling during wartime? Realistically they might be raped because there are no women around or for the sake of humiliating them, but it just doesn't come up, in the books or in fan discussion, as something male POVs should worry about the way the possibility of female characters being raped does. There's still no room in conventional mainstream fantasy fiction like this for addressing male rape as more than a joke or a brief incident happening to the most minor of named characters (the maester who accompanies Victarion; Theon is the male character who has suffered the most but GRRM keeps his torture offscreen and implied, doesn't even confirm his castration in ADWD and is more explicit about how he's made to participate in Jeyne's abuse than the possibility that something sexual might have been done to him). According to an unjust but prominent strain of thought, rape can't happen to a central male character without ruining his credibility by the mere fact of having happened; it's too uncomfortable and implies sexual vulnerability that a lot of people find harder to forgive in a male character. Female characters, on the other hand, are constantly threatened with rape and their stories are easier to fit into the narrative of dealing with threats/actual rapes and surviving them because it's become shorthand for demonstrating that you're writing mature, realistic, gritty fantasy.

[Zalyn]

That's my problem too-not that he depicts violence and misogyny but the gratuitous way the books seem to revel in it sometimes to the point where it seems like ghoulish torture porn at points-and it's even worse seeing it on screen.

 

I am very nervous about the Walk too.  As I understand it, there is real world precedent for the Walk of Shame as well as Book precedent, and it seems to be an extremely important development in the Book, but it's a very delicate thing to get right in terms of tone.  As posters above noted, it's literally a Slut Shaming walk, because at that point, though the audience knows all the awful things Cersei has done, what the Sept is actually punishing her for is being a sexually active widow.  It's horrifically misogynistic, and intended not just to punish Cersei but to send a message to every man and woman watching about what women are allowed to do and not allowed to do, and what happens to them if they break the rules.  There is no equivalent slut shaming walk for men, and it's important that though the Show may portray Cersei as increasingly despicable, that the Show not inadvertently communicate to the audience the same message the Septons are sending.

 

 

It's also GRRM's choice to focus on sexual violence against women and ignore sexual violence against men. How many readers are really worried about Jon's safety when he's a pretty boy in an all-male environment or about the safety of any male character who's in the hands of enemies or traveling during wartime? Realistically they might be raped because there are no women around or for the sake of humiliating them, but it just doesn't come up, in the books or in fan discussion, as something male POVs should worry about the way the possibility of female characters being raped does. [snip]

 

Female characters, on the other hand, are constantly threatened with rape and their stories are easier to fit into the narrative of dealing with threats/actual rapes and surviving them because it's become shorthand for demonstrating that you're writing mature, realistic, gritty fantasy.

 

I agree with these and the other points.  The claim of realism is really hollow when there is not only a lack of realism regarding the threat men face in homosocial situations, but also the lack of writing of it by GRRM.  Additionally, and I've only read the books once, I am having trouble recalling a case where one of the female characters who is raped is able to come back from that and become stronger (Dany is debateable since she arguably consented with Drogo at their wedding).

 

My point is that rape narratively takes women out of commission in the story - Lollys is worthless and is just given to Bronn, a low ranking sellsword, Gilly serves as a witness for Sam's bravery and later loses her baby, etc.  And that isn't realistic or in good conscience, IMO.  You can show terrible things, like rape and maiming, and you can make a choice as an author/writer to focus on details of those events or not, and to show that people come back from that or not. 

 

One character I think of is Athena in Battlestar Galactica. She is raped/almost raped (depends on whether you watched the extended cut of an episode), and two of her friends save her by yanking her attacker off and throwing him against the wall, where he hits his head on a bolt and dies instantly. In the events that follow, that event becomes part of her narrative as she becomes not only a full person to the society but also develops an incredibly strong core of strength and conviction.  This portrayal of rape included a clear message that 1) rape is not okay and bad things happen to rapists and 2) people can, with love and help from others, regain a sense of self despite the hurt. 

 

Another example is The Deed of Paksennarion, a gritty, realistic military story about a woman who becomes a paladin. This happens only after an extended series of torture (and probably rape), and I remember it being very hard to read.  But her suffering is her crucible, and she dedicates herself afterwards to being someone who saves others who are hurting and in need.  Both of these include rape as a realistic part of the world but also continue the character's story and thinks about what they are going through sympathetically and energetically.

 

Back to topic: Besides in its own execution being highly unpleasant, the Cersei Slut-Shaming Walk also effectively neutralizes her as a person.  She can no longer appear in public, because she has become public property. I don't see her lasting much longer, and so there probably won't be an opportunity for her to regain any inner sense of self or outward dignity.  And the worst part is that I know there are readers/viewers who have found/will find that immensely satisfying, just as they'll find Shae being killed by Tyrion satisfying and appropriate.  With events that have happened recently IRL (UCSB), it's upsetting that these stories will just support the ideas that some have that revenge is best taken against women through violence and shaming.

[Avaleigh]

Thinking about season 5 and the walk has me thinking about the character of Kevan and I'm really hoping they recast the guy who was around in the early seasons because with the absence of Tywin and Jaime after that, KL is going to need someone to fill that void it might as well be him. He could have the conversation with Jaime instead of Genna Lannister about loving Tywin and how Tyrion is a mini Tywin. There's also the moment where he refuses Cersei's offer of Hand, he tells her he knows about the incest, and tries to force her to go back to Casterly Rock. Plus he gets wine thrown in his face! He'd have scenes with Lancel, Margaery, Mace, the High Septon, etc. I think it's worth giving his character some decent screen time if his murder by Varys is to have any real meaning.

Re: Kevan--

I think he has to be deluded if he thinks that Tywin would be at all understanding of his being complicit in having Cersei take the walk rather than trying to figure something else out. Kevan wanted his own revenge on Cersei and the only reason he didn't leave her completely hanging out to dry (re: helping secure Ser Robert) IMO is because it took minimal effort on his part and he was doubtful her plan would work anyway. He seems to blame her for Lancel's choices in life and seems far more upset with her than he is with his son who decided he wanted to be Jaime Lannister 2.0, Kingslayer and all.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Fable]

Re: the valonqar

I think Jaime is easily the most boring and predictable option so I definitely prefer the idea of wight Tommen or even Tyrion. Cersei is never right so I think it would be a good twist if she ended up being right about this one thing. Zombie!Tommen is my first choice though.

 

 

 

I think wording of prophesies must be important. And this one says The Valonqar. Not Your Valonqar or A Valonqar. I think that's significant.

 

 

 

This might be way out there, but could The Valonqar be the Stark younger brother, Bran?  It would be poetic justice! Right?

[Maximum Taco]

This might be way out there, but could The Valonqar be the Stark younger brother, Bran?  It would be poetic justice! Right?

I think at this point when we're including younger brothers from unrelated families we're getting away from the realm of likelihood.

 

I mean if it's Bran why not Rickon, or Benjen, or Loras Tyrell, or Trystane Martell or Aegon Targaryen, or Dickon Tarly?

 

I think a prophecy needs to be specific enough to be reasonably predicted. For this to be reasonable Cersei needs to have a strong connection to the valonqar.

 

IMO the only reasonable choices are Jaime, Tyrion and Tommen. Possibly Stannis, he is her brother-in-law, and younger than Robert.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

I hope we don't lose Genna Lannister.  I liked the character a lot although I don't think she will pop up.  Hopefully Kevan will be back though.

[Lady S.]

I guess equal exploitation is the pro side to Theon's torture-porn being shown onscreen, complete with a rape threat in 3.03 and a female-on-male assault prior to forced penectomy? Though neither Theon's 3.07 scene nor Gendry's "seduction" by Mel is really shown as creepily as if the genders were reversed, and both scenes focus more on the nudity of the female assailants than on how they are victimizing the men in question.
 
I would consider Dany and Cersei as both characters who "come back" from rape in the books though. Dany's wedding night is ambiguous, but Drogo does take her against her will (and in tears) several times after that. So the show portraying both instances as rape feels more like simplification to me, I actually think the show's handling there was better tbh, since so many fans focus on her consent on the wedding night and ignore the part where she was almost ready to kill herself in the early days of their marriage. Drogo never pays for her rape but that's partly because he's used to give Dany more power, before his death helps birth the dragons. And Cersei's recounting of "eating Robert's heirs" feels weirdly satisfying to me, and then she gets a deep satisfaction from cuckolding Robert and later murdering him. The show has Jaime rape her, basically by accident, and we're supposed to think nothing of it. What really bothers me in the books is the near constant perving on Sansa and the increasing perving on Arya (the sexualization in her

Mercy chapter is pretty skincrawling, all before her first period

), with Arya's Clash chapters bearing witness to multiple crimes against peasant women treated in a very casual fashion in the text. For instance, one thing we missed by not having Arya as Roose's cupbearer was the part where Roose rounds up Pia and the other women who "laid with lions", and has them put into stockades to be raped at will by the Freys and Bloody Mummers.
 
I'm betting Kevan does return in s5 by Tywin's funeral, Cersei and Jaime will need someone new to interact with. And he is likely to replace Genna (he could easily say Tyrion was Tywin's true heir and compare Jaime to himself for lack of leadership quality), much as she is a preferable character.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Lady S.

[Minneapple]

I hope we don't lose Genna Lannister.  I liked the character a lot although I don't think she will pop up. 

I loved Genna in the books, she had great interaction with Jaime. I really hope we see her on the show.

[sunflower]

 

I loved Genna in the books, she had great interaction with Jaime. I really hope we see her on the show.

 

I think Tywin's death is a pretty organic way for his siblings to be introduced or reintroduced like Kevan.

Edited June 6, 2014 by sunflower

[lawless]

I think he has to be deluded if he thinks that Tywin would be at all understanding of his being complicit in having Cersei take the walk rather than trying to figure something else out.

Just wanted to say I agree completely -- there is no way in the world that Tywin would have allowed that to happen to his daughter, no possible way in the universe. Tywin was consumed by the Lannister reputation and legacy, there is no way he would have permitted his only daughter, and the only family member with a royal title who was born with the name Lannister, to be publically humiliated and demeaned like that.  Of course, he could have easily controlled Cersei without having to resort to something like that in the first place, which it seems Kevan was not able to do.  But nevertheless, not only would Tywin not have wanted something like that to happen to his daughter, he would have understood the larger implications on the family name, and would most definitely have found another way to spring Cersei from the Sept.  The humiliation and shaming of Jaime and Cersei was a private matter for Tywin, only Tyrion was fair game for public humiliation, and only by other family members.  Kevan was not as consumed with reputation and legacy in the way Tywin was, plus Cersei was not his daughter and he had reason to want her laid low, though he seemed to pity her somewhat in his last chapter.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, Jaime's vision of Joanna tells him Tywin could never abide being laughed at and wanted children who would never be laughed at, and such dreams in the series tend to be pretty on the mark. Judging by the epilogue, I don't think Kevan wanted to punish Cersei as much as he just didn't care to protect her, but he was never used to taking charge like Tywin so I'm not sure what he would have done had Cersei not treated Lancel like shit and then disrespected Kevan himself. He was prepared to take over if Cersei stepped aside for the sake of duty, but he already the family was screwed without Tywin, though I'm sure his being fed up with Cersei made it that much easier for him to not care about protecting her the way Tywin would have.

[Pete Martell]

If Littlefinger's offhand comment to Robin means that Tywin is going to die on the toilet, then I am trying to figure out how they will manage to do that in a way that is going to have any dramatic impact. I haven't read the chapter yet - is it presented as dark comedy? Or is it treated seriously?

 

Charles Dance has always added such gravitas to the role of Tywin...while I can see where a man as obsessed with appearances as Tywin would deserve such a fate, I hate to see him go out as some sort of big joke.

[Meredith Quill]

@Pete Martell It's treated seriously when it happens, but Tyrion does think (and then later in the book others smirk over it) that 'in the end Tywin didn't shit gold after all'.

[ambi76]

Like SilverStormm says it's not a joke until afterwards. When it happens it's very serious and dramatic. But despite Cersei's efforts to push how/where it happened under the rug, people talk, and then it's "hehehe, cackle snort, schadenfreude" on the quiet.

Edited June 6, 2014 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

Intersting discussions about the walk of shame. I haven't given that much thought but after reading these comments I agree that it would be easy to mess up that scene. I think the way to do this would be to use sad desperate music and to focus on Cersei's face rather than her body during the walk to show the walk from her perspective rather than from the watching mob. And I agree it would be good to have Cersei give some of the thoughts to one of the silent sisters preparing her before to give more context to the audience. They could also have her make a comment about how Robert slept with thousands of women and most people didn't even raise an eyebrow about it. To question this double standard this way might be a bit to modern for the time (their whole society depends on that noble people know for sure who their father is) but the show has done far worse many times. I don't think it would be out of character for show Cersei to make such a comment.

I think there will be many people that enjoy the scene because they hate Cersei and want to see her suffer. In some ways what happens to Cersei is very similar to what happens to Theon. Both of them has done horrible things but in the end their downfall is not caused by the bad things they done and their suffering is not caused by the people they hurt.
I do think that Cersei's suffering has more justice to it than Theon though because the reason she ends up in the situation is because she tried to get Margeary to suffer the exact same thing. It would be as if Theon had planned to hand over Bran and Rickon to be tortured by Ramsay and this action caused him to lose and be captured himself instead.

 

About Shae I'm gonna quote Avaleigh's post from the episode thread because it sums up most about what I feel.

 

I'm really feeling divided about Shae's murder.

 

On the one hand my first instinct is that not having him kill her seems like a weak ass move in terms of the show runners being fearful that Tyrion murdering Shae would cause the audience to feel as though they've just lost the so-called "moral center" of the show. (In all honesty I don't need for a show to have a moral center or a hero or anything like that anyway. I didn't need one on The Sopranos or Mad Men, this isn't any different for me. ) I hate the idea of catering to an audience because they think things are getting too dark and unpleasant for one of their favorite characters.

 

I also really dislike the idea of Tyrion's search being changed to being about Shae instead of Tysha. I was unhappy with the turn Tyrion took in ADWD and I can definitely do without having him rape random prostitutes, but I don't know that I think it's necessarily a bad idea for him to be haunted for life over the terrible wrong he did in killing Shae. All of that being said, it is incredibly disturbing to see how many people are calling for and rooting for Shae's death based on her statements at the trial. I guess there's this odd expectation that she ought to have been willing to die for him? I don't really understand it and that makes me feel resistant to seeing her character get killed.

Another problem for me is that I just honestly find the character to be irritating in terms of the way her personality is written , so the idea of having to see her again on the show a couple of years down the road sounds like a boring waste of time and wouldn't be a reunion I'd look forward to for Tyrion. I never really got his love for her and feel that if he is meant to end up with someone it should be IMO somebody more interesting.

 

I agree with all of this. Also I'll add that I really want the Tywin-Shae thing happening in the show. I loath Tywin (I like the actor though) and I want his image as a cold pragmatic bad ass to be knocked over before he dies. No better way to do this than to reveal that he did exactly the same thing he was hating on Tyrion for doing.

 

My biggest problem with the whole thing though is that I still don't see a way to get all the character to get where they need to be for this to happen. Why does Shae decide to sleep with Tywin? Why does show Tyrion want to kill Shae for betraying him?

This leads too:

Hecate7, I hope you're right about us getting more info on how/why/when Shae ended up in Tywin's bed. Specifically, I'd like to know if/how long she's been a spy for Tywin and whether or not we get a sense of her being fearful of him or if she behaves in a confident way with him as she was with Tyrion. I wonder because I got the impression on the show that part of the reason she didn't care about being cautious about keeping their relationship a secret was because she knew there wasn't any huge risk to her safety with Tywin in her corner . I also got the impression that she seemed to be more cautious before Tywin came to the city and I'm guessing it's because she'd heard enough about Cersei to know that she's a lot more rash, less sensible, and less willing to be swayed by her personal charms than either her father or brother would be.

 

I would love if Shae turned out to be a spy for Tywin this whole time. It would explain the inconsistency of her character and the reason she betrayed him at the trial even though she refused to leave him when she could have. There are also some minor hints that could point to that like another poster said that Tywin knew right away Tyrion and Sansa had not consummated their marriage. Also that she has been around for three seasons and we haven't gotten any of the back story suggest there is some twist to her past.

 

The main thing pointing against this and the reason I think she wont turn out to be a spy is that she asked Tyrion repeatedly to run away with her. I very much doubt this is something Tywin would have wanted to happen since its not a good idea to have exile heirs hanging around. In this world you're either with the family or against it.
Another thing against this theory is that as inconsistent as Shae's characterization has been she has been given quiet a lot of it. She has been established as being jealous at Tyrion and Sansa, defensive as being thought of less of a person because she's a prostitute, hurt by Tyrion forcing her to leave, and bitter at him during the trial. I doubt the writers plan to throw that all away by revealing how it was all just a lie and the character of Shae basically never existed.

 

Also if Shae was a spy how would that help with Tyrion's motivation? How could he possibly find out? Unless Shae confessed it to him while lying in Tywin's bed.
I'm so excited (and nervous) to see how the show handles this. I don't care about the wall next episode. I wish we could save that episode for later and get the 10th one first.

[Haldebrandt]

I hope it happens not at the moment of death, but while he is still well alive and aware of it.  And I hope we hear it and see it.  I want to see rivers to shite running down Tywin's leg.  Then i want to see him collapse in brown and red puddle.  Just for once, I want him to see one of the bad guys experience a fraction of the humiliation and degradation visited on the more decent people.

[Holmbo]

I hope it happens not at the moment of death, but while he is still well alive and aware of it.  And I hope we hear it and see it.  I want to see rivers to shite running down Tywin's leg.  Then i want to see him collapse in brown and red puddle.  Just for once, I want him to see one of the bad guys experience a fraction of the humiliation and degradation visited on the more decent people.

Sounds good to me ;)

I wonder if they can work in him being poisoned by Oberyn. I think that would be a bit of consolidation to the fans of him knowing that he basically killed Tywin before he died.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

Lots I'd like to comment on and I'm glad I'm not the only one who would be perfectly willing to watch episode 10 before getting to 9. I'm kind of stunned that I'm not feeling all OMG excited about episode 9 this year but I'm not. My main worry about it is that they won't cut away to the south at all.

I'd like to keep Genna Lannister but I won't be surprised if she's cut. I agree though that bringing her on for the funeral could be really good. She could certainly give Olenna Tyrell a run for her money in terms of being able to steal a scene.

Re: Shae being a spy and the inconsistencies in her behaviour---

Couldn't some of it be explained by the idea that she didn't expect that she'd ever genuinely have feelings for him? As far as the suggestion of running away, I feel like this could support the spy theory as she'd have to go away forevever if she didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of Tywin's wrath after double crossing him.

Re: Tywin's actual death- --

I too am hoping there is some discussion about his hypocrisy when it comes to Tyrion (really with all of his children IMO) and I'm especially curious to know if show Tywin will attempt to rationalize any of his behavior. One of the things I really love about the scene is that Tywin is completely calm the entire time and doesn't seem to think even for a moment that he's in any real danger. The surprise in his voice when he realizes Tyrion has shot him is such a terrific moment, I'm really looking forward to it.

More than that though, I'm especially curious to see how they'll handle the "you're not my son" line and whether or not it will tie into the conversation they had in season 3 where Tyrion asks Tywin when has Tywin has ever had to make a sacrifice for the family. It was a significant conversation and I felt likeTywin was holding back in that moment.

Re: Kevan not helping Cersei in a way that Tywin would have wanted- --

To me the obvious answers would have been to insist on help from the Tyrells/ Tarly by reminding them that it's for their own benefit and that not helping her is going to end up damaging their side long term. The Tyrells act like Cersei's problems aren't also their problems when all it's going to take is for Cersei to be nailed for incest and then there goes Mace's last chance to have a royal grandchild. I realize that the Tyrells can't make the High Septon drop the charges on either of the women. My thing is why don't they all seem more concerned about what they're going to do if Cersei is found guilty of incest? I feel like Mace seems to have forgotten what is keeping Tommen (and Margaery) on the throne.

ETA

I think we can have Tywin know he's going out in an undignified way without actually needing to see the shit.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

Lots I'd like to comment on and I'm glad I'm not the only one who would be perfectly willing to watch episode 10 before getting to 9. I'm kind of stunned that I'm not feeling all OMG excited about episode 9 this year but I'm not. My main worry about it is that they won't cut away to the south at all.

They wont. It's been confirmed the entire episode will be at the wall. I'm not very excited about it. I don't care that much about battle action. Sure Blackwater was my favourite (or at least top tier) of all the episodes but that's not because of the fighting but rather the interaction of the characters and their reactions throughout the battle. I like Jon, Sam and the other NW boys well enough but they just wont make for such interesting drama as the KL people.

 

 

Re: Shae being a spy and the inconsistencies in her behaviour---

Couldn't some of it be explained by the idea that she didn't expect that she'd ever genuinely have feelings for him? As far as the suggestion of running away, I feel like this could support the spy theory as she'd have to go away forever if she didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of Tywin's wrath after double crossing him.

Could be. But still, I don't think they'll do it. Can't say why exactly. Maybe it's just the overall feel of this show that makes me think they wouldn't do that.

 

I really hope the writers will understand that it's not enough to just follow the book for this event. In the book the action is locked to the POV characters but in the show they have no such restrictions and no reason not to show scenes from Tywin or Shae's perspective.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Holmbo

[Kobo Duram]

Option number three is a Frey hanging.  We could have the Brotherhood do their trial and a hooded UnCat ordering execution.  When the Freys complain that they have no evidence, Thoros or Beric can say "you're wrong, we have a witness"; at which point UnCat pulls down her cowl and we see her face.  Roll the closing credits.

 

Beric gave his life to raise UnCat.

[benteen]

On the subject of Tywin's death, we never  got that great conversation between Tywin and Tyrion where they discuss what went down with Clegane and what he did to the royal family.  It was the conversation where he says he ordered the deaths of the children but "hopes" that Tyrion doesn't think he ordered the rape of Elia.  It was a fascinating conversation and it looks like it's not going to happen.

[Avaleigh]

I'd actually be pleased to get a short scene between Shae and Tywin before Tywin goes to the privy just to give us an idea of the dynamic between the two of them. Imagine the audience hearing her call him her giant lion or something along those lines?

Also, this is jumping ahead a bit, but I'm curious to know if they're going to keep that smiling corpse. Something about that little detail is so hysterical yet so disturbing that I feel like something must be wrong with me that I find it to be so amusing. I think Jaime even thinks to himself that Tywin looks like a man at his bedding.(I might not be remembering it correctly but if Jaime did think that it's kind of an interesting comment given what we now know happened at Tywin and Joanna's bedding and that he certainly wouldn't have been smiling. ) I wonder what Tywin would have been angriest about apart from the murder? Being found by multiple people on the privy with shit still on his body, smiling like a fool on his funeral bier in front of the realm, or smelling awful enough to make some of the most important people in Westeros vomit all over themselves.

I wonder if Varys is going to be completely MIA next season? He's an important character to get rid of for an entire season and he's barely been around this year.

Eta:

Benteen, it was a fascinating conversation and if it could take place on the show, I'd desperately want Tyrion to throw it in Tywin's face that the fault would still lie with the commander and that Tywin should have recognized that a soldier such as Clegane would need to be given explicit orders about keeping certain people alive during the sacking of a city. Tywin either didn't care or was stupid enough to think that a man like the Mountain wouldn't deal with Elia as harshly as possible unless instructed otherwise.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

 I wonder if Tywin would havebbeen angriest about apart from the murder? Being found by multiple people on the privy with shit still on his body, smiling like a fool on his funeral bier in front of the realm, or smelling awful enough to make some of the most important people in Westeros vomit all over themselves.

I think the smiling. :D

 

I wonder if Varys is going to be completely MIA next season? He's an important character to get rid of for an entire season and he's barely been around this year.

Could he acompany Tyrion to Illyrio? If they're keeping that part of the story they could have a conversation between them to explain a bit of their plans. Then varys could leave disapearing of to no viewer knows where until the end of the season.

This would give someone for Tyrion to interact with right after the murder. I could see Varys doing eye roles clearly thinking: Why did I even save you? while Tyrion is being super drunk and mumbling about how his father did not shit gold after all.

 

Some people think Aegon (/fake Aegon) should be cut but I think that would be to bad because then we wouldn't get Varys long game which was hinted at allready in the begining of the first season.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Holmbo

[mac123x]

Re: Shae being a spy and the inconsistencies in her behaviour---
Couldn't some of it be explained by the idea that she didn't expect that she'd ever genuinely have feelings for him? As far as the suggestion of running away, I feel like this could support the spy theory as she'd have to go away forevever if she didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of Tywin's wrath after double crossing him.

 

Dramatic parallel with Jorah Mormont.  He started out as a spy but went over to Dany's cause.  Maybe Shae started out working for Tywin but fell for Tyrion.  That would explain why she's not afraid of Tywin. 

 

If they intend Shae to take the place of Tysha in Tyrion's quest, they can have Tywin exposit that she worked for him the whole time, but fell in love with Tyrion so he shipped her off to Essos after the trial.  "Where?"  "Where ever whores go" Twang!

[Meredith Quill]

In the S4 preview trailer there is an image of Shae on a bed looking sultry, in full make up, with Tyrion looking at her (this scene hasn't been broadcast as yet), so it would appear that Shae will meet the same fate as in the book imo. I also remember Tyrion giving Shae a chunky gold necklace last season...

 

This is the image, you can only see Tyrion's shoulder in this screencap:

[Avaleigh]

The show doesn't much get into Tywin's issues with smiles and laughter, so I don't even know if the smiling corpse would have the same effect on the Unsullied but I'd still like to see it all the same. There are two times on the show where we've seen Tywin smile or be amused by something. Once was when he was schooling Joffrey about why the council meetings are being held in the Tower of the Hand and we see him smirking as he's leaving. The other is when he briefly chuckles during Joffrey's wedding as he wonders about what it is that has his daughter in a good mood, probably knowing that whatever it is that is causing this momentary bit of happiness is likely due to the misfortune of another. This kind of reminds me of a moment where Tywin almost smiles in one of Tyrion's chapters and Tyrion is all unnerved by it.

There are a couple of lines where he tells Tyrion that his jokes aren't appreciated but I can't think of much else that gives people an idea about how much he dislikes laughter. Now that I think about it though, he did get pretty pissed when Tyrion made the audience at the trial laugh. Hmm, maybe they have done a better job of establishing how he feels about humor in general than I originally gave them credit for.

Eta:

If Shae is looking at Tyrion there she looks pretty damned relaxed like she isn't staring at a man she just fucked over who also happens to be carrying a crossbow.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Maximum Taco]

Eta:

If Shae is looking at Tyrion there she looks pretty damned relaxed like she isn't staring at a man she just fucked over who also happens to be carrying a crossbow.

 

IIRC he doesn't pick up the crossbow until after he kills Shae.

 

First he strangles her with the hands of gold (which are always cold), and then he picks up the crossbow to confront his father.

[Shriekingeel]

I think Ciaran Hinds is a fine actor, but I can't see him becoming the super-secret agent of ADWD ("Bat-Mance" is my nickname for the Mance of ADWD). A more dashing, more kinetic actor would be a better fit.

[Fable]

I think at this point when we're including younger brothers from unrelated families we're getting away from the realm of likelihood.

 

 

Agreed, and like I said, it seems a bit of a long shot!  My only basis for that theory is that if Sansa were to be the somewhat speculated younger and more beautiful woman to cast Cersei down, that her younger brother might be The Valonqar.  I didn't mean just anyone's random younger brother.  Sorry for the confusion. 

[WearyTraveler]

Beric gave his life to raise UnCat.

you're right, off course

An Unsullied view of Tywin:

 

I don't want him to die because the actor and the character are amazingly great. Or if he has to (which is probable), I don't want him to be savagely massacred, à la poor poor Oberyn. It should be something dignified.

 

Muahahahahahah!