Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[David T. Cole]

Tough call?

[FormerMod-a1]

I fall on the side of saint, because even though she willingly moved across the street from the Barones there's no way she could imagine what it would be like.  Even with Ray telling her they are meddling, she probably thought meddling in a normal way.  That said, there wouldn't be a show if they weren't across the street from them.

[ByTor]

I'm sure being married to such a mama's boy is horrible, but maybe Ray would have been more on Debra's side if she didn't constantly call him "idiot."

[smiley13]

But Ray was an idiot.  He constantly put Debra down and took his crazy Mother's side over hers.  Poor Debra never had a chance.

[random chance]

Debra was a passive-aggressive mean person - she'd say something really mean, wait for the reaction, and then claim she was just joking.  She also almost never stood up for Ray vs. anyone (offhand I can only think of the cookie lady), and she'd often run him down in front of other people. 

[ethalfrida]

I think Debra was just right for Ray. To me, she is neither shrill harpy nor saint.

[ByTor]

Debra was a passive-aggressive mean person - she'd say something really mean, wait for the reaction, and then claim she was just joking.  She also almost never stood up for Ray vs. anyone (offhand I can only think of the cookie lady), and she'd often run him down in front of other people. 

Agreed.  And since she did have a bit of an edge about her, why did she stand around waiting for Ray to stick up for her & not just stick up for herself.   I don't disagree that it would be frustrating to be married to someone like Ray, but she had to have known very early on in the marriage that standing up for her over Marie wasn't something he would be inclined to do, so to me it's either get out of the marriage or accept it & stand up for yourself.  And I have just taken a sitcom WAY too seriously! :)

[random chance]

I know what you mean, I'm always trying to solve the problems of fictional people.  "Buy a lock, Debra!  And let her clean the house if she wants to, damn!"

Ray did stick up for her in the earlier episodes, but I suppose at some point they figured he would be funnier if he let her hang.

[Runningwild]

I'm going to go with Debra is a shrill harpy.  Just like Jill (Home Improvement), Debra got worse.

[random chance]

One thing I noticed watching it on Netflix, there's an episode where Robert's ex-wife is bitching at him and running him down in front of his family, and Debra tells Robert he should stick up for himself because he doesn't deserve to be treated this way. The ex-wife's behavior is virtually indistinguishable from later-season Debra's. Ninth-season Debra is even a little worse.

[SusannahTaylor2]

I know what you mean, I'm always trying to solve the problems of fictional people.  "Buy a lock, Debra!  And let her clean the house if she wants to, damn!"

Ray did stick up for her in the earlier episodes, but I suppose at some point they figured he would be funnier if he let her hang.

I always wondered why they never locked their doors but then if they did they wouldn't have a show. How else could Marie be a buttinsky unless she barged in all the time? She is the mother in law from hell. I wasn't always a fan of Debra's but when it came to how Marie treated her I did sympathize most of the time. Debra asked for it too though by insisting that she and Raymond move across the street.

[random chance]

Maybe they should have had an episode where Debra locks the doors and then Marie breaks a hip climbing in through a window or something that would serve as an explanation. 

[ByTor]

Speaking of Debra locking the door, I was watching the episode "Sex Talk" (where Marie says that she & Frank have had sex once a year "on average" over the last 20 years) & Marie walked in on Debra napping on the couch & she saw the "how to talk to children about sex" book.  Marie then snuck back outside & rang the doorbell to wake Debra up, and Debra said she was just upstairs folding laundry.  Now shouldn't Debra have known something was up?  I mean Marie...doorbell?????

[random chance]

Haha - seriously!  "What is wrong with this picture?" 

I've only watched The Middle a few times but the actress doesn't seem as screechy in that one, so I wonder now if the shouty yell machine was an acting or a directing choice. 

[ByTor]

I'm guessing a directing choice, I LOVE Heaton as Frankie!

[FormerMod-a1]

Well, if I had to deal with that family, every day, for that long (15+? years) I might become a bit shriek-y too.

[ethalfrida]

The real Debra was on a talk show once and she said the family was just like that and she was thought actress Debra did a pretty good job of everything.

[Jeezaloo]

"Buy a lock, Debra!  And let her clean the house if she wants to, damn!"

Yeah, if Marie was doing that to me, I'd be waiting at the front door with a broom, a dustpan, and a shrug every time she barged in. Off to the races, Marie!

Well, if I had to deal with that family, every day, for that long (15+? years) I might become a bit shriek-y too.

I can sorta identify. To quote Frank Barone: "Rude is the only thing that gets through! How do you think I got the way I am!? (yelling) I used to be a gentleman!"

[CleoCaesar]

I do sympathize with Debra, who's locked up in this mental institution of a family with no escape. That being said, it was all due to a series of choices she made: marrying and moreover staying married to an immature, lazy, spineless mama's boy; moving across the street from her in-laws; giving up her job; not setting boundaries with Marie; the list goes on. Obviously, there wouldn't be a show if she did any of that. But it makes it hard to sympathize sometimes when a lot of her problems could be solved or at least lessened in real life.

That being said, if Debra ever killed Marie and I had to serve on that jury, I'd vote to acquit.

Edited April 18, 2014 by CleoCaesar

[CherryAmes]

Definitely saint!  IMO Debra didn't get mad enough, often enough and was way to respectful of Marie than I would have been in similar circumstances!  And when she did yell I was always on her side.  As she once told Ray "you're the reason for the yelling".

[Starscream]

Well, Ray was right when he said Debra likes to be the martyr.

 

The truth is that Debra's being corrupted by the Barones throughout the course of the series.  Where she was seemingly a completely wonderful person when she first met Ray, by the end of the series she is well on her way to becoming Marie.  They didn't use Heaton and Romano as Marie and Frank in the separation flashback for nothin'.

[bigskygirl]

Ray was a lazy, obnoxious momma boy. He wanted a wife who would treat him the same way his mother did. He wanted to be waited on hand and foot and be told how wonderful he was.

 

My in-laws can be pains in the behind at times, and my husband and I do get into disagreements when it comes to them. I stay away from them for my mental and physical health. I am still very angry about how they treated my husband since he was diagnosed with his illness.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

As she once told Ray "you're the reason for the yelling".

 

I'm thinking about it too much, because I know its a sitcom, but imagine if the situation was reversed and Ray told Debra that she's the reason for the yelling. Most angry people need an excuse for their behavior, and while Debra may have had ample reason to be angry, she was in a situation she helped to create. If Ray was constantly bellowing at Debra instead of just whining, it probably wouldn't be considered comedic. "You're the reason for the yelling!" would certainly not be a punchline. Yes, Ray is annoying and Marie is an interloper who should tend to her own knitting, but if Debra's there when she doesn't want to be, there's things she can do about that other than scream.

 

And now I have officially thought too much about this silly show.

[CherryAmes]

but if Debra's there when she doesn't want to be, there's things she can do about that other than scream.

 

Well obviously in real life she'd move, with or without Ray.  On a family sitcom based on the real life of the star and the producer, what alternatives do you think the writers could have tried with Debra, assuming they weren't going to change Ray or Marie?  Take their abuse with gentle good humour?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I would actually have thought it was okay if Debra had gone toe-to-toe with Marie. Marie was the one who made Ray into the wimpy mama's boy he was in the first place, and it was her coddling that made him think the wife had had one day would behave in the same fashion. So if Debra had torn into Marie and ripped her several new ones, I probably would have applauded, but I don't remember that happening very often. She would usually wait until Marie left, then light into Ray for not standing up for her to his mother, who always came off like a biter instead of just being a yell machine.Yes, Ray was spineless, whiny, wimpy, babyish, etc and I wouldn't want to be married to him, but Marie seemed like the person Debra really had a problem with.

[ShadowSixx]

Ray said it perfectly, "Cranky uptight yell machine." I can't be on Debra's side because of the way she physically and verbally abused Ray. Yes Ray was obnoxious but he didn't deserve that kind of abuse from her, no husband deserves to be pushed in bookcase, elbowed in the stomach, elbowed in the groin, smacked on the back of the head, called idiot multiple times, having his foot stomped on. She thinks Ray is ungrateful but she can be just as ungrateful. When Debra got fired from the Charlotte Sterling Agency, Ray went there and got her job back and she was mad that he went there. If she worked there she wouldn't have to deal with Marie & Frank on a daily basis and Ray would have no choice but to stay home and take care of the kids.

[Guest]

I wouldn't call her a saint, but she was definitely better in the beginning seasons.  Then as the series went on, she went from shrill harpy straight to bully.  She wouldn't stand up to Marie, she would bully Ray into getting her way, and she would yell and hit him when he tried standing up to her.  Ray was borderline emotionally abused by both of the main women in his life; if not abused, severely manipulated at the least.  He couldn't stand up to either of them. When he would stand up to Marie, she would respond by guilting him. When he would stand up to Debra, she would hit him, punch him, call him names, etc.

 

A perfect example of this is the Christmas picture episode.  Debra asked Ray about changing their Christmas plans (that it seemed they had ongoing for several years, possibly their whole marriage).  He said he didn't want to. They never came to an agreement.  She decides they're doing it anyway and proceeds to try to bully him in front of his family to get her way.  Then when she didn't get her way, she purposely undermines the gift he was planning for his mom.  How does his mom react? By making him feel guilty, of course.  It ends with Ray yelling at all of them in the one scene, and it was played off like he snapped. When how often do we see Debra yell over the course of the series? And it's just considered normal.

[CherryAmes]

Poor put upon Ray, the man who's mission in life was to spend as little time with his family as he possibly could.  The man who lied about Debra to everyone, lied to Debra about everything and pretty much tried to make sure everyone liked him except his own wife and kids.  I'm not feeling the sympathy for him somehow.  The very few times Debra gets physical with him (and it is a handful of episodes over 9 years) pale in comparison to his constant lying, laziness and manipulation, which are staples of numerous episodes. But that said, let's face it, just as with the times Deb gets physical, the times Ray is a deceitful mama's boy are all done in the name of comedy.  I really don't think we are ever meant to see Ray or Debra as abusive, unkind people.  Now Marie, that's another story!

Edited June 10, 2014 by CherryAmes

[ShadowSixx]

Debra got physical with Ray when he was trying to help her with her PMS, he brought her some pills to help with some symptoms and she gets an attitude. Ray wasn't being manipulative or a mama's boy in that episode. He was trying to tell her that her acting this way could be PMS related and she shoves him into a bookcase. She elbowed him in the groin and stomach when Ray tried to warn Robert that Marie and Debra were plotting and manipulating him into getting back with Amy and Debra and she attacked him so that he wouldn't say anything and in that episode Ray wasn't being manipulative or being a mama's boy.

[LGGirl]

Lets just say I can relate to Deborah. I am living her life. So I can understand her frustration. It drives you to harpy. But do I think the times that she was physical with Ray was OK? No. I get it that most of Deb's actions and reactions were for comedic effect.

[SpiritSong]

Debra certainly had her petty moments but I generally cut her a lot of slack. After all, she's a single mother of 4 children. Three she gave birth to and one that she married. Ray never seemed to look on her as a true partner, just someone to do his laundry and have sex with.

That was really demonstrated in the Super Bowl episode, when it clearly never even occurred to him to bring his wife to the game, something every other sportswriter there did automatically, presumably because they enjoyed spending time with their spouses. I don't think she would have had the meltdown she had in the room if he'd truly wanted her there in the first place.

He never ever thought about what he could do for her, or how he could make her happy. He wasn't physically or verbally abusive but in all other respects was a terrible husband.

[ShadowSixx]

In the "Superbowl" episode it looked like the other sports writers brought their wives to have sex with them and then drop them off at an event that the ladies would like. Judging from that conversation Ray & Debra had with that couple who came to their room. I see why Ray didn't invite Debra because she admitted to not reading his articles and not at all a sports person and the Superbowl wasn't a pleasure trip it was work where Ray had to cover the game and cover the press conference there too. I can see why he would think of bringing Gianni who he watches sports with and would enjoy the game while Debra on the other hand would just tolerate it.

[SpiritSong]

Debra not being into sports really isn't the point. Soccer bores me to tears, but if Mr. Song received a free trip for two to the World Cup you'd better believe my butt would have been in Brazil.

If Ray had just been honest (something he is absolutely incapable of) and explained that PART of his time would be tied up with work related duties, I don't think that meltdown would have happened. But wasn't he on his way to play golf when she was supposed to run along with the other wives? But that would require taking an interest in his wife, finding out what there was for her to do when he was working, and talking it out beforehand. You know, acting like a mature adult.

[CherryAmes]

The only work related activity Ray had was to attend a press conference on the Friday - even going to the game was a perk, it wasn't for work -- he wouldn't have needed tickets if he was sitting in the press box.  The rest of his time he was basically on a paid vacation.  I liken his Superbowl trip to attending a convention.  He had one item of business and the rest of the time was his own with lots of friends to play with.  I didn't blame Debra one bit for being hurt that he hadn't asked her in the first place and then he expected her to only appear when he wanted her to (basically at bedtime though he might have thrown her a bone and had dinner with her).  The whole Superbowl mess was entirely Ray's selfish fault.  What was really bad IMO was that when he destroyed the tickets he didn't just blow things for himself he blew them for Gianni who was an innocent bystander in the whole thing.

[ShadowSixx]

I can certainly see why Ray is reluctant to do anything or bring Debra anywhere. The surprise birthday party even though Lois was planning it, Ray was part of the plan in knowing what was going on but she just had to know what was going on. He took her golfing and she started getting snippy with him with the whole "need her space" thing. Tried helping her with her PMS and she got bitchy and abusive with him over that. Even when she guilted him into doing charity work, she stopped him from doing that cause Ray enjoyed doing it, so I see why Ray is just a little reluctant to do much of anything with Debra.

 

As far as Superbowl go I rather invite someone who would enjoy it and not just tolerate it. It's like wasting a ticket.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ShadowSixx

[Inquisitionist]

The birthday party storyline was over-the-top and, IMO,  not something Debra would actually do.  But I think that in most other instances cited above, Ray turned something that should have been about Ray-and-Debra as a couple into something about him.  The PMS thing in particular grates on me -- if you want to really help someone, you ask what they need and try to do it.  Ray didn't want to help, he wanted Debra's "problem" to magically disappear.  Debra constantly asked Ray to simple things that would lessen her burden around the house, such as putting his dirty clothes in the hamper and taking more interest in his children.  So PMS made her lash out a bit and act "snippy" in front of his friends -- big whoop.  Ray had the attitude that every hour at home was his leisure time.  When was Debra's leisure time supposed to happen?  "Idiot" was going too easy on him.  :-)

 

And the charity work thing:  it's been a while since I've seen it, but didn't it turn into Ray "volunteering" excessively because he grooved on a sense of validation from the patients at the hospital?  It became another form of entertainment for him, another "excuse" to get out of his responsibilities at home.  It's like the guy has no sense of moderation. 

[CherryAmes]

And the charity work thing:  it's been a while since I've seen it, but didn't it turn into Ray "volunteering" excessively because he grooved on a sense of validation from the patients at the hospital?  It became another form of entertainment for him, another "excuse" to get out of his responsibilities at home.  It's like the guy has no sense of moderation.

 

Yep.  It started out sweet in that he helped that older lady take her pills "you tricky tricky white boy" but it very soon became all about Raymond to the point where he was at the hospital several nights a week.  I think Debra shouldn't have involved Robert in the whole thing and should have just sat him down and told him to grow up and give his family some of the attention he was giving others but this is a sitcom so of course they aren't going to go with the serious heart to heart talks too much!

[ShadowSixx]

It was even said in an episode that Ray does help out around the house in the episode where they thought Robert was gay. Also in the episode where Ray got Debra a crock pot for Christmas, Ray pointed out that he doesn't help out around the house because Debra wants to do it herself so she can feel superior and and called her out on being a martyr and she agreed that she was. Even when Ray said go to the movies or do whatever she wanted and he'll watch the kids and she goes all no, no, don't want to do it. It looks like she does that on purpose so she can hang it over Ray's head that she doesn't get to do anything or go anywhere. She even got mad at Ray for buying the "Humm Vac" to help out with cleaning the house. Who cares if Marie sent the lady over there cause the vacuum lady called them way before Marie sent the lady to Ray and Debra's house. Ray was cleaning the house with the humm vac so Ray has shown signs of helping out around the house.

 

Then there was the "Lateness" episode where Debra agreed to be ready at a certain time but didn't cause she needed to curl a piece of hair that didn't need to be curled and then got mad at Ray for leaving her. She should have got mad at herself because that was her fault. The "Vote for Debra" episode where she got onto Ray for not shaving and not dressing a certain way which he pointed out to her she was acting like he wasn't good enough for her. Upset with Ray for picking Bernie to replace him if he died and made up a lie so that they won't hang out with Bernie and Linda anymore.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ShadowSixx

[Adam]

"I will get a step ladder and fight you to the death." That's tough love that makes the tender moments all that much sweeter.

[SusannahTaylor3]

It was even said in an episode that Ray does help out around the house in the episode where they thought Robert was gay. Also in the episode where Ray got Debra a crock pot for Christmas, Ray pointed out that he doesn't help out around the house because Debra wants to do it herself so she can feel superior and and called her out on being a martyr and she agreed that she was. Even when Ray said go to the movies or do whatever she wanted and he'll watch the kids and she goes all no, no, don't want to do it. It looks like she does that on purpose so she can hang it over Ray's head that she doesn't get to do anything or go anywhere. She even got mad at Ray for buying the "Humm Vac" to help out with cleaning the house. Who cares if Marie sent the lady over there cause the vacuum lady called them way before Marie sent the lady to Ray and Debra's house. Ray was cleaning the house with the humm vac so Ray has shown signs of helping out around the house.

 

Then there was the "Lateness" episode where Debra agreed to be ready at a certain time but didn't cause she needed to curl a piece of hair that didn't need to be curled and then got mad at Ray for leaving her. She should have got mad at herself because that was her fault. The "Vote for Debra" episode where she got onto Ray for not shaving and not dressing a certain way which he pointed out to her she was acting like he wasn't good enough for her. Upset with Ray for picking Bernie to replace him if he died and made up a lie so that they won't hang out with Bernie and Linda anymore.

I had a hard time feeling sorry for Debra when she wasn't ready on time. It wasn't as if she wasn't ready to go yet, she was just doing some last minute primping. She could have also yelled down to Ray to let him know what happened with the curling iron so he would know something was wrong. I call it as being both of their faults. Ray should have gone and checked on her or at least maybe had Amy check on her and Debra should have let Ray know what was going on. I didn't think she  should have waited for him to come home still angry. Then again he should have waited for her. Even Frank said "Ass In Seat" didn't pertain to Marie, just Ray and Robert. Even Frank knew you didn't do that. If the curling iron wouldn't have gotten stuck in her hair she would have been ready. She had her makeup and clothes on and was doing some last minute touch ups to her hair. She still would have been ready on time. They both have a problem communicating with each other. This episode is a prime example. By the way, I hated the dress Debra wore. It looked like a negligee to me. When she was still touching up her hair I thought she wasn't dressed yet until I took a better look at the dress. This was in the last season of ELR and she got shriller and became more of a shrew during this season and the ones leading up to the last season.

Edited August 18, 2014 by SusannahTaylor3

[SusannahTaylor3]

I also thought Ray was dead on right about how Debra likes to be the martyr. She's like Marie there. Marie likes to be the long suffering wife and mom and lays on the guilt trips like no one else can. If the show had gone on any further I could see Debra becoming more and more like Marie. She was heading that way.  I think Ray was a lot like Frank and Debra was a lot like Marie so it was like a new generation of Frank and Marie.  Another episode where I thought that Debra was a lot like Marie was when they hired a nanny because the kids were wild and the kids liked the nanny better. She couldn't stand to see the kids preferring Lisa (nanny) to her so she fired her and had Marie watch them. I could see Marie doing the same thing when Ray and Robert were the same age as Ray's kids.

[SusannahTaylor3]

I'm going to go with Debra is a shrill harpy.  Just like Jill (Home Improvement), Debra got worse.

Jill got worse when she started going back to school to become a psychologist then she became very condescending and seemed to think she was better than Tim. She even stopped being as fun and giggly as she was in earlier shows.

 

Debra's problem is that she wanted Ray to be something he wasn't and she was frustrated because he wouldn't fit into her mold of what she wanted him to be. Just look at the way Marie did everything for Frank, Ray, and Robert. They didn't have to lift a finger and Ray liked that and he wanted Debra to be the same way. The more like Frank he became the more like Marie she became out of frustration.

[ShadowSixx]

To me the longer Debra's hair became the bitchier she got. When she had short hair, Debra was nice and not so shrill and even was a little goofy like Ray. Surprised her and Carrie Heffernan didn't hang out more.

[CherryAmes]

I had a hard time feeling sorry for Debra when she wasn't ready on time. It wasn't as if she wasn't ready to go yet, she was just doing some last minute primping. She could have also yelled down to Ray to let him know what happened with the curling iron so he would know something was wrong.

 

She did call down to Ray.  He didn't hear her because he was sulking in the car waiting for her instead of spending a few minutes hanging with his kids or doing anything other than obsessing over how he was going to miss the bacon wrapped shrimp.  Poor thing. 

 

Generally I sympathize with the person who is stuck waiting for someone.  In my marriage it's certainly always been me waiting for my husband who seems to be incapable of being anywhere on time.  I totally get how frustrating that can be.  What I would never do though is treat my husband like a misbehaving teenager and leave him behind if he wasn't AIS.  Even Frank knew better than to do that to his Mrs!

[Inquisitionist]

In my marriage it's certainly always been me waiting for my husband who seems to be incapable of being anywhere on time.

 

Me, too!   Now I always pad the time by 15 minutes, e.g., if I want to leave our house by 9:30 in the morning, I ask him to be ready by 9:15.

 

But... a situation comedy is supposed to exaggerate real life!  If sitcom characters always acted rationally, there would be no show.  ;-)

[CherryAmes]

But... a situation comedy is supposed to exaggerate real life!  If sitcom characters always acted rationally, there would be no show.  ;-)

 

Oh absolutely true!  I think it's a testament to the actors and the writers that so many of us can get so involved in what these characters are doing!  With the exception of only a few episodes (The Debra dresses slutty for the PTA comes to mind) ELR just seems real to me but if it was actually really real it would be dead boring :).

[SusannahTaylor3]

To me the longer Debra's hair became the bitchier she got. When she had short hair, Debra was nice and not so shrill and even was a little goofy like Ray. Surprised her and Carrie Heffernan didn't hang out more.

True. They both did hit it off when Ray and Debra did the crossover show on King of Queens. Doug wanted her to tone it down but that's what ended up bonding Carrie and Debra. They do seem like one in the same. Both have lazy, selfish husbands who have no drive or ambition other than making themselves happy even if they have to lie. Carrie has to be hands down meaner. Debra had her moments but Carrie always seems to be pissed off about something. She was another one who started off sweet but then she started being angry at everything and everyone.

[momofsquid]

I'm going with shrill harpy, but sometimes I love her for it. It's possible I might have a couple of things in common with her. What I can't stand is when she goes all super-sensitive with the "You have to tell him how you feel!" or gets turned on when she realizes that Ray is having "feelings". Sorry Deb, not buying it. I have a relative who is also a shrill harpy with a super-sensitive facade and I don't buy it from her either. 

 

Since I've been dissing Patricia Heaton on the Middle board, I've been trying to think of moments where IMO she totally nailed it as Debra. 

-"Who's the nutcase now?" -when Marie changed the label on the spice bottle

-"You forgot bitchy." -the PMS episode

-when she frantically strokes the janitor after making the remark about a sewer worker

-"You know what, I'm tired. Could you just call yourself an idiot?" 

-the whole suitcase episode, but especially the fight on the stairs

[ByTor]

-"Who's the nutcase now?" -when Marie changed the label on the spice bottle

Also from that episode, loved Debra's contemptuous "Your SAINT of a mother!"

Edited June 11, 2015 by ByTor

[Adiba]

I love the epi where Marie "teaches" Debra to make meatballs and Debra finally gets her validation in the scene with Ray. I rooted for Deb here.

I didn't agree with Deb's behavior when Ray has to go to the super bowl and she is offended that he doesn't intend to spend every minute with her-- unreasonable.