S04.E09: Dark Waters

[Ceylon5]

Ask and you shall receive. Pistol whipping Cooper is an added bonus.

 

 

 

 

 

Source

 

Haha.  Brilliant, thanks.  How could I have forgotten the pistol whipping?  Clearly Dig's self-defence lessons have been on-going, even if we didn't get to see them.  Now he just needs to teach her how to shoot a gun a little bit more efficiently.  Though she is pretty good at tablet throwing, which is something she's a lot more likely to be holding at any given time, so she's got that as a backup move if some convenient blunt object doesn't come to hand.

[way2interested]

I love how Felicity now almost has an obligatory moment of action with all of these group action scenes, at least in a small and semi-realistic way.  

[tv echo]

I rewatched this episode (only the second time, so I'm behind some of you ;) ) and I noticed two things that I didn't notice before (maybe they've already been mentioned in this thread, but I just don't recall)...

 

When DD crashes the holiday party, he looks at Thea, hesitates and goes 'hmm' - at least that's what I thought the first time I watched.  The second time, I thought the argument could be made that he recognized Alex and was surprised to see him there.  Also, I noticed that DD's "family" (wife and daughter?) look similar enough to Alex both in coloring and features to be related.

 

In the tree lighting/proposal scene, Oliver is wearing a tie in the same olive green color as his GA suit.  Add to that the color of his jogging outfit in 401, and it's almost like he wants people to connect the dots.

Edited December 15, 2015 by tv echo

[looptab]

Interesting, I just assumed he was focusing on Thea, but it could very well be Alex.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Anyone else think we should have a thread exclusively for gifs?  Just me?  I can't even read this thread on my phone because doing so eats up too much of my data.  This could just be a "me" problem though, cause I'm poor and can't afford a better data plan!  

[Nagevs]

When DD crashes the holiday party, he looks at Thea, hesitates and goes 'hmm' - at least that's what I thought the first time I watched.  The second time, I thought the argument could be made that he recognized Alex and was surprised to see him there.  Also, I noticed that DD's "family" (wife and daughter?) look similar enough to Alex both in coloring and features to be related.

 

 

I thought he recognised Alex too, Thea was the one to 'react' simply because he was looking in her general direction. I think Alex is definitely targeting the Queen family for some as yet unknown reason, he made the first move with Thea even though it was inappropriate , was against the bay area clean up and organised the tree lighting ceremony...

Edited December 15, 2015 by nagevs85

[Password]

Maybe he's baby mama's brother out for revenge.

[EmeraldArcher]

Anyone else think we should have a thread exclusively for gifs?  Just me?  I can't even read this thread on my phone because doing so eats up too much of my data.  This could just be a "me" problem though, cause I'm poor and can't afford a better data plan!  

I do!  I think I posted that in the 409 episode thread, maybe.  Not only would it help those trying to view the site from their mobile devices, but it would also be the Nirvana most of us seek when we just want to lose ourselves in smirks, butt clenches, kisses, and I Love You's.

[bijoux]

This is a very interesting point about DD maybe taking notice of Alex instead of Thea. I still think it's Thea, but I would support it being Alex just to make him a bit more interesting. I foresee Thea being instrumental in taking down DD in the end as it is.

[Password]

Now that I think about it did Thea tell Oliver that Darhk whammied her? Or is it just between her and daddy Merlyn?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Password

[bijoux]

Now that I think about it did Thea tell Oliver that Darhk whammied her? Or is it just between her and daddy Merlyn?

Not on screen, that's for sure. And it's lame because it's totally for plot since this is sorta important information for the team.

[derriere]

I'm not worried about Felicity. This is Arrow, so she's definitely not dead. Or, at least, if she is dead, they'll find a cure in fairly short order.

Edited December 17, 2015 by derriere

[way2interested]

I'm not worried about Felicity. This is Arrow, so she's definitely not dead. Or, at least, if she is dead, they'll find a cure in fairly short order.

One of my new favorite things that have come from this episode is watching reviews/reactions, and people immediately addressing the elephant in the room going, "Nope, nope, nope" I honestly haven't seen anyone who legitimately thinks she's dead from this episode. I've seen emotional because they just watched a character get shot and bleeding to death on the ground, but still not dead. The grave predictions are different stories, but I haven't seen anyone who legitimately believes Felicity died in 409 or in the upcoming 410.

[lemotomato]

Poor Oliver. Every Christmas and birthday he's had since he got back home has been traumatizing.

[Guest]

You know, I've heard Little Drummer Boy more times since this episode than I have my whole life. It's like the universe is out to torment me. Haha. And I definitely think of that end scene every time I hear it. Good job show!

[way2interested]

Heard the exact same version on the radio today while I was driving this morning, Needless to say, it got me feeling slightly anxious/emotional. 

 

On the topic, I've got to say, I love moments when characters are placed in dangerous or desperate situations. Even when it was incredibly predictable that they were going to get away but that Felicity was going to be horribly injured, I still got totally engrossed in what was happening, same with the gas chamber scene. SA and EBR really can sell desperation and make me really feel the stakes in the scene despite me totally knowing that it's all going to work out later. 

[Genki]

One of my new favorite things that have come from this episode is watching reviews/reactions, and people immediately addressing the elephant in the room going, "Nope, nope, nope" I honestly haven't seen anyone who legitimately thinks she's dead from this episode. I've seen emotional because they just watched a character get shot and bleeding to death on the ground, but still not dead. The grave predictions are different stories, but I haven't seen anyone who legitimately believes Felicity died in 409 or in the upcoming 410.

 

I think that is true for viewers like us, but I had to talk a couple of friends down after they watched it. 3 months not 6, still filming etc, without spoiling. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Genki

[lemotomato]

I think that is true for viewers like us, but I had to talk a couple of friends down after they watched it. 3 months not 6, still filming etc, without spoiling.

I did too. And that time passage on the show more or less following real time was also something I had to point out. Also the fact that the show is highly unlikely to put a character in a coma for 3 months.

[kismet]

It's funny, I was listening to the DVD bonus BTS podcasts on Outlander. They were talking about certain writing devices and twists that they try to pull off, but there is always some contention in the writers room because from an analytical perspective the audience would never believe it, but from an emotional perspective if the audience is invested in a certain outcome they will want to believe it. So they were talking about the give and take in scripting, filming and editing, where it is this constant pull between what analytically or emotionally is better for the narrative.

 

I feel a lot of what they were saying could be related back to ARROW, especially with this cut to a grave flashforward. Analytically it makes no sense that FS is in that grave. But emotionally, the writers want us to believe that she is. So its the writers trying to manipulate the script and the performance to tell one story when we all know it will probably be another story. I think the biggest difference though is that the ARROW writers have played their hand a few too many times with some of these "twists" that there is a pattern to their writing that sometimes supercedes whether you watch the show from an emotional or analytical perspective.

 

But the most important part of the whole convo was that the Outlander writers were saying that there needs to be a balance between the analytical/logic police and the emotional police in the writers room for the show to be successful. And I think that is where s4 is doing better than s3, because there is more of a balance this season.

[Morrigan2575]

I feel a lot of what they were saying could be related back to ARROW, especially with this cut to a grave flashforward. Analytically it makes no sense that FS is in that grave. But emotionally, the writers want us to believe that she is.

There was no cut to the grave flashfoward in 409. There was a post episode promo for 410 which included the grave stuff but that wasn't related to the episode or the producers, The Network cuts the promos.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

Wow, strange, the general audience people I watched with were just confused as to why they would frame it up as if Felicity's dead, not to mention we all took her head moving in the last shot as an indication that she was still alive, just shot

 

I feel a lot of what they were saying could be related back to ARROW, especially with this cut to a grave flashforward. Analytically it makes no sense that FS is in that grave. But emotionally, the writers want us to believe that she is. So its the writers trying to manipulate the script and the performance to tell one story when we all know it will probably be another story. I think the biggest difference though is that the ARROW writers have played their hand a few too many times with some of these "twists" that there is a pattern to their writing that sometimes supercedes whether you watch the show from an emotional or analytical perspective.

 

But the most important part of the whole convo was that the Outlander writers were saying that there needs to be a balance between the analytical/logic police and the emotional police in the writers room for the show to be successful. And I think that is where s4 is doing better than s3, because there is more of a balance this season.

 

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I liked this episode so much. Emotionally, I felt the danger and the suspense even though analytically I knew nothing was really permanently happening here. Arrow, when at its best, is able to get that balance, and I appreciate it.

 

 

There was no cut to the grave flashfoward in 409. There was a post episode promo for 410 which included the grave stuff but that wasn't related to the episode or the producers, The Network cuts the promos.

That's true, but the episode did have the grave shot in the "Previously On" and didn't go back to it at all in the episode. Suddenly, in the episode, someone is delivered a threatening blow. The association is still slightly there, but the network just made it larger and more immediate.

[Morrigan2575]

That's true, but the episode did have the grave shot in the "Previously On" and didn't go back to it at all in the episode. Suddenly, in the episode, someone is delivered a threatening blow. The association is still slightly there, but the network just made it larger and more immediate.

Pretty sure the "previously on" is also a network thing.

[dtissagirl]

I think the network is responsible for the previouslies too.

Edit: JINX

Edited December 17, 2015 by dtissagirl

[way2interested]

Pretty sure the "previously on" is also a network thing.

 

Huh, didn't know that. That explains a lot of questions I've always had about them. Thanks!

[Password]

The previouslies kind of gave away the entire plot in relation to the proposal and Felicity death anvils. It annoyed me.

[BkWurm1]

Pretty sure the "previously on" is also a network thing.

I really don't think the Previously on is a network thing.  Do you really think the network has someone on staff for each show that is ready to pull the appropriate clip from the past - maybe even a couple seasons ago - to remind the audience about things that the coming episode is going to reference?  That has to be in show. 

[way2interested]

I really don't think the Previously on is a network thing.  Do you really think the network has someone on staff for each show that is ready to pull the appropriate clip from the past - maybe even a couple seasons ago - to remind the audience about things that the coming episode is going to reference?  That has to be in show. 

 

That makes sense as well, honestly, I'm not sure. The fact that they do use footage from the show as well as SA's vo made me assume it was the show, but they ways that they are edited for shock value do suggest it's edited by some form of marketing editor who just has access to the applicable footage. It's just so strange to me how many of the times the previously ons do spoil an event that's happening within the episode (maybe not "spoil" exactly, but they do bring up plot points far before they are even referenced as a twist in the episode, like 208 in the Flash referencing 220 of Arrow) when the writers seem so adamant against spoilers.

 

I know that occasionally writers write recap lines/scenes with the intention of them being used in the previously ons, but I have no idea who edits them. Honestly, I never really mind them because I'm a spoiler-aholic. I usually know what spoiler or twist the show is referencing once the previously on begins. I just laughed when I saw the proposal and grave hints because I knew where the episode was going.    

[tarotx]

Somebody should Ask MG.

[wonderwall]

Some doctor who has a tumblr analyzed this gif and the gun shot:

 

 

The lower lobe of the right lung would definitely be hit and also possibly the superior aspect of the liver. Nicking a large vessel in the lung would cause blood to leak into the airway, which would explain the blood coming from her mouth.

The heart and the aorta are in the left chest and would not be in the line of fire.

Judging the injury from the exit wound is a little trickier. If the bullet is travelling at a shallow angle, parallel to the ground, the exit is going to be the right side of the back - no additional damage there. However, it looks as if the bullet is angled down slightly, as if fired by someone who is standing and aiming at the floor of the limo. In which case, the bullet may exit closer to the centre of the back - i.e. the spine (eeek!!) - but could also hit the hilum of the lung where the largest vessels enter and exit the lung (the pulmonary veins and arteries). You could bleed out very quickly hitting these vessels… (X)

Edited December 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[Guest]

Well, that's impressive and highly depressing all at once.

[apinknightmare]

If the paralyzation is a thing, I wonder if one of her doctors is going to mention that her injury could've been exacerbated by being pulled out of the back of the limo. Because seriously Oliver, WTF.

[wonderwall]

Do you guys think SA broke character in this scene with his little smile? Discuss.

 

[Morrigan2575]

I really don't think the Previously on is a network thing. Do you really think the network has someone on staff for each show that is ready to pull the appropriate clip from the past - maybe even a couple seasons ago - to remind the audience about things that the coming episode is going to reference? That has to be in show.

Everything I've ever heard is that the "recap segment" and promos are network driven not in show. However, if you've seen other information I would be interested to read it.

ETA: I agree, someone with a Tumblr account should ask MG. I don't have one or I'd ask him myself.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

Do you guys think SA broke character in this scene with his little smile? Discuss.

 

Of course he did, she's freaking adorable! Also the smile didn't add up with what he was trying to say, IMO.

[wonderwall]

Lmao so that wasn't much of a discussion as much as a 'yes' he did break character :p 

 

Also found this. Apparently this was the twitter feed when it aired in the UK

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

Do you guys think SA broke character in this scene with his little smile? Discuss.

 

 

It's my personal canon that Oliver - even when upset - can't help smiling when he looks at Felicity.  Amell breaking character might make more sense but my way works for me.  ;) 

 

And just to be fair, it looks like EBR was having trouble holding it together as well. 

Everything I've ever heard is that the "recap segment" and promos are network driven not in show. However, if you've seen other information I would be interested to read it.

ETA: I agree, someone with a Tumblr account should ask MG. I don't have one or I'd ask him myself.

I'd think the fact that the "Previously On's" are a part of the episode on the DVD's means they are done by the show, not the network. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

Lol, I kept the discussion brief because I'm on my iPad and I can't type on this freaking thing. Haha.

[way2interested]

If the paralyzation is a thing, I wonder if one of her doctors is going to mention that her injury could've been exacerbated by being pulled out of the back of the limo. Because seriously Oliver, WTF.

Ha, I thought that too. Hindsight is 20/20, and he wanted to get her out of that death trap asap. Plus, when he opened the door, you can see he totally didn't think she got hurt at all and was completely surprised and horrified at what he saw. We saw that she was shot, but Oliver had no idea what happened. And wow, that's going to pile on the guilt trip if Oliver does find that out.

 

Do you guys think SA broke character in this scene with his little smile? Discuss.

 

 

I haven't seen his face move so fast since that time that an interviewer said she still shipped Oliver with Laurel. I love his little breaks into smiles or laughter in these scenes. He's done it before in the entire series, so no idea if it was a break or not. I can tell that the ones in early s1 had to be breaks, but no idea as the seasons went on. 

[WaitandHope]

Is it breaking character if the character trait is Oliver can't help himself from smiling at Felicity? If it is, then SA's been breaking character since 1x03 in almost every other scene. I'm guessing the editors and showrunners keep the takes where O/SA subconciously or consciously smiles because it's so damn cute and spontaneous.

But either way, it's part of what makes them great. This episode really spotlighted their natural chemistry.

[Morrigan2575]

Nothing to see here

Edited December 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

It's my personal canon that Oliver - even when upset - can't help smiling when he looks at Felicity.  Amell breaking character might make more sense but my way works for me.  ;) 

I suuport this message.

I don't think it was breaking character either. To me it was Oliver once again being caught off guard by Felicity. A silent, Felicity, you are remarkable.

[kismet]

It does look like they both were having trouble keeping it together. It does seem like it might be breaks.

 

I think the Previously Ons are done by the show, but perhaps not the writers - maybe post-production crew. So that might be why they tell a lot. I actually think the after the show promos are way too spoilery. Not that I would have thought they would kill everybody at the end of 322, but it really takes the power out of the cliffhanger to see everyone alive in the promos.

[bethy]

I remember with Lost that the showrunners expressed frustration with the "next week on Lost" clips and/or the previouslies that were shown by ABC because they revealed too much. If I remember correctly they said someone with the network did those. Or at least that they did not have control over what was shown.

[kismet]

I remember with Lost that the showrunners expressed frustration with the "next week on Lost" clips and/or the previouslies that were shown by ABC because they revealed too much. If I remember correctly they said someone with the network did those. Or at least that they did not have control over what was shown.

Somebody in post-production forever screwed the last scene of LOST and sent fans through the roof with frustration and speculation. We can send them a little thank you note on that one. That took some big kahunas to splice that last shot in.

 

I honestly don't care who is responsible for them on ARROW, but they really should coordinate better that if there is going to be some big reveal or cliffhanger don't ruin it in the previously on or next time portion of the show.

[dtissagirl]

Joss Whedon hated the previouslies the WB used to cut for BtVS and Angel, especially when they spoiled returning characters that were supposed to be a surprise.

Edited December 18, 2015 by dtissagirl

[KenyaJ]

Do you guys think SA broke character in this scene with his little smile? Discuss.

 

 

I don't think he was breaking character. I read it as, even though Oliver had concerns about asking Felicity to marry him once they went back to the danger of Star City, he was happy and excited and a little disbelieving to realize Felicity wants to marry him too. Because I interpreted it that way, that smile was actually my favorite thing about the scene.

[Chaser]

I hope they do commentary for Dark Waters on the S4 DVD.

[kieyra]

I don't believe Felicity is dead, any episode without Hawk-persons is a good one, they didn't spend ages having Felicity be dorky while pretending not to know about the ring (as demanded by Tropes 101), and my SO shouted "Shut the fuck up Laurel" at least once. So overall this episode was a solid win for me.

Edited December 20, 2015 by kieyra

[jay741982]

For a person who's only credits before Arrow were a Nirvana music video and a webseries, she's really done an amazing job. I really loved her in this episode and she's definitely one of the few actors from Arrow that I'd actively follow and seek out.

She is in a Nickelback video as well

[wonderwall]

I just really loved this moment