S04.E08: Legends Of Yesterday (2)

[apinknightmare]

See for me - it should have gone something like this: when Oliver and Barry were talking and Barry said, "I think you should be a part of the kid's life" - Oliver should have thought about Darhk and said "maybe when it's safer" and then they should have shown him having an entirely different conversation with baby momma. Something like "I know and I just want you to know that I know.  So if you ever need anything, please come to me." And then perhaps he asked if he could meet the boy "as mommy's friend" with no illusion that he wanted to have any kind of ongoing contact.  Maybe have Oliver look back at the house as he leaves and say something like "someday, but not until I take care of a few things first." 

 

If they had done that, I would not care that he is keeping this to himself.  He also should have told Felicity something like "I was upset about something that happened in my past, long before I met you and I don't want to talk about it yet.  Someday, but not now." 

 

As odd of a statement as this is - I do believe you can keep something to yourself without exactly lying to or deceiving someone else.  And it is ok to tell someone, "I don't want to talk about it yet."

 

Oliver's been threatened by DD, but nothing "real" has happened yet between Oliver and DD - it's all been between DD and Green Arrow. At the time Oliver went to visit his kid, I can see why thinking that being involved with the kid in a superficial way could be a viable situation for him. He said he wanted to see the kid "every once in a while." That, to me, does not indicate that he wants to visit the kid frequently, but I don't know what that means to Oliver. It might not mean much since Samantha made it very clear that he couldn't be a father to William. If he has the understanding that he's never going to get the opportunity to be a father to William and thinks that Felicity broke up with him over the mere existence of the kid, I can see why he might not think it's worth it to tell her, since he's never going to be involved in the kid's life in a meaningful way apart from a visit here or there, where he's lying to the boy about who he really is. 

[AyChihuahua]

Being Mommy's friend Oliver for the kid's whole life is such a totally shitty thing to do to the KID.  

 

God this is all so fucking terrible.

 

However, I have it figured out.  Oliver just wants to give Felicity a really great wedding present.  He has to keep the kid secret, obvy, or it's not an awesome surprise!  He tells Felicity he knows who'll be the ringbearer, and then SURPRISE!!! he introduces the kid to Felicity at the wedding as his secret son William.

 

So really Oliver is just being an awesome future groom.

[slayer2]

That episode was AWESOME! It reminded me of Smallville's "Justice" and "Absolute Justice" just incredible. Fun, exciting, emotional, so glad Oliver finally met his kid. The mother has some nerve putting conditions on him like that, it always bothers me when women feel like they can just arbitrarily decide whether the guy they slept with deserves to be a parent. It would be one thing if she knew he was Green Arrow but she doesn't. If she felt he was such a lout then she shouldn't have slept with him to begin with. 

 

Oliver and Barry until the end of time, their incredible relationship really sells the whole verse, the big bro, little bro vibe is adorable and truly makes it a heart-warming watch. Hawkgirl and Hawkman are awesome! I am so hyped for LoT, I can already tell it will surpass my Arrow enjoyment by far. 

 

Barry going back in time reminded me of when Illyria killed the whole Angel Investigations team and turned back time. So brutal and yet so amazing, I love watching the Arrow team get bested and then see them recover. Big motherfucking fan of timeline resets, although now I'm pretty sure that William's Mom is going to be in that grave which is a total bummer because that kid seems so happy-go-lucky and I hate to see another girl fridged for Oliver's pain.

 

Vandal Savage was kind of over-the-top but I feel like that might be the vibe of LoT so I'm here for it. Over-the-top done right can lead to Sleepy Hollow shades of awesomeness and The Atom and Captain Cold are rather over-the-top and I love the shit out of them so the more the merrier. I don't need another super-dark show anyway. 

 

I think this episode did its best because it focused on the most important relationship, that of Oliver and Barry, I think when you have those two heading the franchise and connected as they are then you can't go wrong. It was like a mini-Justice League and it was awesome! Cisco is also welcome on Arrow any-freaking-time. He makes everything better. Felicity still grates, but the final scene version of her was a lot more tolerable than the shit she was spouting in The Flash breakup scene right before a big fight. Hopefully Olicity will fade to the background and they can focus more on these disturbing Damien Darkh shenanigans which are increasingly interesting to me. 

 

Loved Thea trying to kill Vandal Savage nearly immediately (can't remember if that was Flash or Arrow) but I agree with the reviewer who said that Oliver seems to pick and choose random times to argue against murder especially for a murderer himself, it's really sporadic and nonsensical. Just the other week Diggle and Laurel were shooting at people but not a word about that. The show needs to pick a lane and stay in it.

 

All in all wonderfully done IMO, I've been waiting for two hours of superhero television like that for a very long time, when The Flash and Arrow get it right boy do they ever.

When she read that Moira died, then would have been the time to get in touch with Oliver and tell him. 

 

But she didn't want to. She didn't want him in Williams life at all, and that's all on her.  If she died suddenly, would her son have been left an orphan at the mercy of more distant relatives?

 

An excellent fucking point. Might have been useful for William to have a father with (supposed) money in case anything should happen to her. Her behaviour was so fucking selfish I can't even.

Who's arguing that he loves her so much he had to lie? If you're referring to a post of mine and dtissagirl's that was quoted here, that's an oversimplification and not the focus of those posts. The focus wasn't on why he lied, exactly; it was about why he looked so content and relieved in the final scene, rather than guilty or whatever else we expected to see instead. 

 

Further, I'm confused as to what it means to you that Oliver let Felicity walk away without putting up a fight in the first "breakup" scene? That he doesn't actually love her or care about their relationship enough? Maybe I'm just not following the logic, or maybe we just have different views of the depth of his attachment to her.

 

I agree that Oliver should have stopped Felicity to tell her that Samantha had told him he needed to keep it a secret, but I mean, had they not all died, and that Timeline continued, of course they would have actually talked about the situation and he would have explained that part. The only reason he didn't do it in that moment is external: the writers had no time in the episode to include an actual, full conversation, and more importantly, they didn't want one. They needed that scene to end with Felicity stalking off so Barry could believe that she had broken up with Oliver. I personally didn't see it as a breakup. I assume that Timeline 1 Oliver had grave concerns about what would ultimately result from that conversation, but not that he thought it was over yet.

 

So, Oliver's not putting up a fight means nothing to me in terms of his feelings or motivations, because he clearly would have done so eventually. (That he didn't at that moment was part of what made the ep feel so reminiscent of S3, where all sorts of things would have been resolved if people just sat down and talked through their actions and motivations, instead of jumping to conclusions or making bad choices, and never getting or giving clarification.)

 

Timeline 1 Oliver entered that conversation--and began his investigation into the DNA mess--without the "knowledge" that it would end in Felicity breaking up with him. Timeline 2 Oliver was given that faulty knowledge, and his decisions from that point were informed by it. To me, one telling thing is that he did the same thing both times anyway: he followed Samantha's wishes over his own desire to tell Felicity the truth. T1 Oliver was lying to Felicity again when she "broke up" with him, after begging Samantha not to make him do that. T2 Oliver did the same thing, but in that timeline we can understand that his reactions to things are informed by a deep, deep fear that Felicity would break up with him--including the last scenes, and the look of relief on his face to be in his safe space: Felicity's arms, in the middle of their apartment that had been destroyed by a fan-wielding immortal. :') I think we can all relate.

 

And once again, I agree with Carrie-Ann.

Edited December 6, 2015 by slayer2

[dtissagirl]

I guess if I forget the fact that BM's motivation is invisible, I can see that Oliver, bless his teeny tiny brain, thinks he's being forced to lie to Felicity. Because BM ordered him to, and because Barry is the worst Chatty Cathy to ever be chatty.

 

And these writers think this is some kind of "honorable" lying. Which hey, considering they wanted their audience to forgive sister-swapper and serial cheater Oliver in their original premise, it's not surprising.

 

But what's gonna kill me with LOL is if the dumbass thinks he can get away with it. Or the fact that he hasn't learned over and over and over AND OVER AGAIN that every single time he's lied to Felicity specifically, things got worse for him, AND that she's proven a pretty good sounding board and problem solver when he feels like he's cornered.

 

Which is what brings me back to this is all super contrived because they need Oliver and Felicity to break up during February Sweeps.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Which is what brings me back to this is all super contrived because they need Oliver and Felicity to break up during February Sweeps.

That and Tom Amandes are the only things I'm looking forward to and actually watching.  Cry, Oliver, you lying manipulative turd.  Cry while the love of your life walks away.

 

I'd like her to dump him for good and date Richard Grayson.

 

I think she's going to take a leave of absence from TA and Curtis will fill in.  Not for a long time, just an episode or two.

[slayer2]

That and Tom Amandes are the only things I'm looking forward to and actually watching.  Cry, Oliver, you lying manipulative turd.  Cry while the love of your life walks away.

 

I'd like her to dump him for good and date Richard Grayson.

 

I think she's going to take a leave of absence from TA and Curtis will fill in.  Not for a long time, just an episode or two.

 

 

She's not the love of his life mileage varies of course but I think by the end of the season it will prove just that. Frankly I think they should have stuck with Sara but regardless I could have done without the Olicity baby drama in this episode. It would have been easier for him to just meet the kid lie to the baby mama (whom he owes nothing) and tell the shrew and their cohorts so that god forbid anything happens to him in the line of duty, she can set up a discretionary fund for him with her shitloads of money which are Ray's nee, Oliver's and Thea's nee their father's nee whoever the fuck he killed, doublecrossed and lay in bed with to get the family fortune, and Team Arrow can protect the son going forward.

Edited December 5, 2015 by slayer2

[dtissagirl]

 I think she's going to take a leave of absence from TA and Curtis will fill in.  Not for a long time, just an episode or two.

You know what? They can get away with that if O/F breaks up towards the end of 413, then 414 is flashbackville, so Felicity can go visit Donna in Vegas or something, since present time story is gonna be minimal, and then Felicity can come back to the team in 415, which is the last episode of sweeps.

[kismet]

See I disagree on the secret keeping part.  If he had been keeping the secret for years because of the dangerous life he led while on the island and when he got back, I could forgive that.  I can even forgive him for keeping the secret now.  But to me - his reason for keeping it has to be an internal reason where he decided not to put the boy in danger, disrupt the mother/son's life, etc...  If Oliver wants to keep that secret - it really is his business. 

 

I don't know that I believe that you must tell someone everything about your past when you get into a relationship with them.  Sure, a secret love child might be a big enough thing that it should warrant a mention but then again - maybe not if you believe it will have zero impact on your current loved one.  Let me frame it another way - if Felicity had gotten pregnant in college and given the baby up for adoption and had no ongoing relationship or ties to that child - I don't believe she is obligated to tell Oliver about that.  If she does, great.  But I don't believe she owes it to him.

 

Now if you think a woman having a baby and giving it up for adoption and not revealing it to her future husband makes her a horrible person - then I guess that would apply to Oliver as well in that situation.  But to me - it falls into a gray area which is why I say I would have preferred the scenario I presented.  Now I understand why some might say that just means he was lying longer.....but I wonder how often someone does give a child up for adoption and not tell their future spouses about it.  And I wonder if that really qualifies as deception or if it's just "trying to forget about a difficult time in their lives when they made the hardest decision ever."  Either way, it would have been more dramatic and in character than what we got.

 

Personally, what I think is really bad is the fact that it appears that he is going to engage in an ongoing deception of Felicity by seeking to have an "uncle" type relationship with said child and NOT reveal it to Felicity. I also strongly dislike that he didn't want to keep this secret/lie to Felicity but that he appears to have gotten strong-armed into it by the BM.  That makes Oliver look wishy washy and a little weak.  Instead of painting him like a woman who gave their child up so the boy could have a better life - they have painted him as someone who wants to have his life with Felicity and have a life with BM and his son on the side that she doesn't know about.  Sure it's not his idea but he will go with it.  I would have respected the first scenario a hell of a lot more than what we got.

What you are proposing are completely different scenario to the current BM drama, so although you bring up good points. I don't think the situations are comparable. OQ never had the opportunity to even decide to give up his child. It is completely different from someone willingly giving up his child for a better life. So its comparing apples to oranges. And I do believe that if you have done something as big as giving a child up for adoption you should tell your partner before you make a long-term commitment.

 

I don't believe in full honestly for everything at all times. Full transparency in relationships is a fallacy. I think its human nature for people to keep somethings to themselves or only tell a portion of their truth. But I think the major stuff should be aired before one gets engaged/married. It's not first date material, but yes I do think someone might be considered horrible for not telling their spouse about a love child or child given up for adoption by the time they become spouses.

 

And I agree the story is being written horribly. But I think they are trying to make it seem like OQ is in a difficult situation, which he is. And perhaps he was strong armed by the BM, but all the more reason why he has to tread lightly. It doesn't make him weak. It makes his smart to look at the situation from all angles as opposed to just what would be easy for him or selfish. We have not seen him having this secretive double life, so I will not pre-emptively judge him for trying to appease a lot of different people at the same time.

 

It also helps that I keep remembering there is a grown boy involved in all of this. So whatever he does will comeback on the boy to some degree. If he strong arms the mother it will threaten the boy's relationship with his mother. If he lets his love for FS overtake his responsibilities to the boy then the boy misses out on an opportunity to know his father. The visitation as BM has set-up is very grey & questionable, but it is also only the beginning of the relationship. If it was a standard custody situation, I would say things could be different. But as of right now, we don't ever know what BM has told William about his father. So the friend of Mommy is the best way to spring a new person on a kid.

See for me - it should have gone something like this: when Oliver and Barry were talking and Barry said, "I think you should be a part of the kid's life" - Oliver should have thought about Darhk and said "maybe when it's safer" and then they should have shown him having an entirely different conversation with baby momma. Something like "I know and I just want you to know that I know.  So if you ever need anything, please come to me." And then perhaps he asked if he could meet the boy "as mommy's friend" with no illusion that he wanted to have any kind of ongoing contact.  Maybe have Oliver look back at the house as he leaves and say something like "someday, but not until I take care of a few things first." 

If he wants to be a part of his child's life he has a right to do that. His life is dangerous, but that doesn't mean he should be stripped of the opportunity to at least meet the kid. In s3, he thought his life was too dangerous to even have a romantic relationship & everyone told him that was wrong. That he deserved a life, so now that he is trying to find balance and happiness I do not think it is that big of a stretch to believe that he would appreciate the opportunity to be part of his child's life in some capacity. Which is probably also why he is agreeing to BMs terms because it gives him the opportunity to assess how realistically possible & safe it is for him to be a part of his child's life. OQ's life just changed in the blink of an eye. To force his child to have a similar experience when he is not sure to what degree he is able to be part of it, is putting the child's welfare above his selfish desire to be the kid's father.

 

If they had done that, I would not care that he is keeping this to himself.  He also should have told Felicity something like "I was upset about something that happened in my past, long before I met you and I don't want to talk about it yet.  Someday, but not now."

As odd of a statement as this is - I do believe you can keep something to yourself without exactly lying to or deceiving someone else.  And it is ok to tell someone, "I don't want to talk about it yet."

I believe that statement too. And it's been addressed in many places that there are so many better ways the script & SA could have handled the last few minutes of the conversation. It was poorly worded & poorly acted.  But it's ARROW, I feel like I need to learn to not expect better scripts. As for SA, he let me down, but it is what it is.

[wonderwall]

It would have been easier for him to just meet the kid lie to the baby mama (whom he owes nothing) and tell the shrew and their cohorts so that god forbid anything happens to him in the line of duty, she can set up a discretionary fund for him with her shitloads of money which are Ray's nee, Oliver's and Thea's nee their father's nee whoever the fuck he killed, doublecrossed and lay in bed with to get the family fortune, and Team Arrow can protect the son going forward.

 

The money that's Oliver's and Thea's weren't earned by Oliver and Thea. So by your definition it isn't theirs? Unless you mean that it IS theirs because Oliver and Thea inherited the money from Moira/Malcolm (for Thea's case)... Which means that the money that the "shrew" you're referring to, has, is hers because she inherited it from Ray who doesn't want any of that anymore. And to be fair, this "shrew" is trying a lot harder than Oliver (who literally didn't try when he was CEO) and Thea (who literally signed the inheritance away without batting an eye) and Ray (who literally doesn't give a damn about it and said it's meaningless) to keep said inheritance afloat, so IDK what you mean here....

[nksarmi]

kismet - do you realize you just defended Oliver and the writing? :)

 

No, I'm teasing.  But I was just trying to present a way that I - personally - could have dealt with the scenario the writers clearly wanted to set up - one where the secret of Oliver's child comes up at a point that causes problems with him and Felicity - that they eventually overcome - without him looking like an ass. 

 

I actually had no problem with Oliver telling Felicity he couldn't be with her while he was dealing with the Ra's situation because Ra's would use anyone Oliver cared about against him (as he clearly did with Thea).  I blamed Oliver for telling Felicity that and still telling her how much he loved her constantly - that's a bit too much emotional yo-yoing for me.  I also blamed Oliver for thinking he had to do anything but turn Malcolm over to Ra's to begin with, but that is a season three rant that I have spent way too much time on already.

 

My point is not that I'm saying Oliver shouldn't try to know his son because he lives a dangerous life.  My point was that I would have believed and understood if THAT had been his reason for playing all these cards close to the vest.  What I will not like is if they have him engage in an ongoing deception with Felicity in regards to the boy.  I really, truly hope they don't do that.

 

ETA: I actually rewatched that last scene with Oliver and Felicity the other day when someone else in my house was watching the ep on demand - and I think what came through was SA/Oliver just thought Felicity was being so damn cute with her team mate/sports analogy and he was smiling for that reason - not because he got away with some kind of big lie.  At least that's what I am going with for now.

Edited December 6, 2015 by nksarmi

[kismet]

kismet - do you realize you just defended Oliver and the writing? :)

Where did I defend the writing? The writing is crap. The BabyMama drama is TV trope 101, its just cliche. And there delivery is shittier than most. I was watching Nashville, the other day and realized that I watch some pretty soapy stuff, but at least they own their melodrama. ARROW somehow thinks they are writing the second coming of Shakespeare. The framework might be similar, but the end results & middle bits are just the worst knock-offs.Thank goodness, I love most of the characters, flaws & all.

 

Defending OQ, I might have done that. :) It seems to be a side-effect of trying to wrap my head around this unnecessary plot for plot crapfest they seem to want to take us on. I still think he's an absolute ass for withholding stuff from FS. But I can also understand his motivation to not lose it all. He is just trying to figure it all out and I can understand that & give him some time/space. It is a short leash though depending upon how he handles BM & FS. Because these writers cannot be trusted to not make it go completely off the rails pretty quickly.

 

As of now, there is no clear path that does not have the potential for a pretty bad consequence. I guess I'm just glad he chose to be with his son in whatever capacity he could at the moment because that to me at least keeps him on the path of character growth. The withholding is a few step backwards, but at least he is trying to grow and accept his responsibilities as a father, not just write a check. Meeting his son was the first step on him accepting one of his major consequences for his previously bad behavior. He has made amends with most of the other important people in his life. Perhaps he is trying to make amends with BM & William by meeting them where he can meet them now, even if the terms are what they are for the moment.

 

I also realized that I spent the majority of s3 mentally raging against the stupid and it left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Even on rewatch, it was a horrid experience because of the residual rage. I'm trying a different approach this season. Their pattern is becoming apparent, so I need to find a way to process it. The writing will forever be a disappointment. But in many ways I'm just channeling my inner Scarlett when it comes to my hopes for ARROW. "Tomorrow I'll think of some way . . . after all, tomorrow is another day". I'll just keep trying to take whatever they give me and make the most of it, dresses from curtains and such.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kismet

[kieyra]

Any chance the writers pull a Hail Mary and BM dropped that hat on purpose with some sort of doctored hair sample?

[kismet]

I don't think there is a hair sample or DNA test in the new timeline. So no actual proof. The writers have given themselves another loophole, if that is the case.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kismet

[kieyra]

I guess while I'm speculating wildly, I'll say I did also pause to consider the possibility that the grave at the beginning of the season belonged to the kid. Wasn't Barry the only one there with Oliver?

[Morrigan2575]

Ok, something totally stupid that just occurred to me.

In 408 they kept saying that Kendra was the Ace in the hole because Savage had no idea she tapped into her powers/emerged.

However 208 ended with Flash/Arrow facing off against Savage in CC while Kendra was trying to "emerge" back in SC. As soon as Kendra winged out in SC, Savage was able to feel other in CC and go into some orgasmic/reverent "Shiera"

So how exactly did Savage not know about Kendra?

[lexicon]

I guess while I'm speculating wildly, I'll say I did also pause to consider the possibility that the grave at the beginning of the season belonged to the kid. Wasn't Barry the only one there with Oliver?

 

I getting more and more on board with the idea that William's in the grave, if only because the kid they cast is cute and I can see a vague resemblance to Oliver but has a blandness to him that I'd never associate with Oliver Queen and surely if they intended him to stick around for awhile they'd have cast a more engaging child actor. Then again these are the same people who continue to push forward with LL as BC so idk

[bijoux]

Ok, something totally stupid that just occurred to me.

In 408 they kept saying that Kendra was the Ace in the hole because Savage had no idea she tapped into her powers/emerged.

However 208 ended with Flash/Arrow facing off against Savage in CC while Kendra was trying to "emerge" back in SC. As soon as Kendra winged out in SC, Savage was able to feel other in CC and go into some orgasmic/reverent "Shiera"

So how exactly did Savage not know about Kendra?

I didn't get that either, but then again, I still don't understand how Oliver's 'being distracted' influenced the outcome of that first battle with Savage in any way. The reason the outcome changed is because Oliver clued in into what didn't work the first time. Edited December 6, 2015 by bijoux

[morakot]

(Posted this a couple of days ago but it seems to have disappeared...)

 

Moira was never a fool and would not have relied on a simple check to get BM out of town. She would have had the money wired to an account in CC and then have kept an eye on her grandchild. After all, it was currently the only heir to the Queen fortunes unless and until Laurel produced one.

 

(On the other hand, if it was just a simple check, good luck, BM, on getting that cashed!)

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt she cared about any heir when she still had a perfectly young son and daughter to take over the fortune.

[statsgirl]

I'm pretty sure she would have cared about the kid, if only to keep from someone else getting their hands on him and staking a claim to the Queen fortune.

 

But even beyond that, the most important thing in her life was her family. She kept secrets from them and she did some pretty bad things but it was all to keep them safe after MM sank the boat and killed Robert and supposedly Oliver.  I'm assuming that BM kept fairly good care of her son because if she was substance abusing and abusing him, I can't see that Moira wouldn't have swooped down with her lawyers and taken her grandson away.

 

I can understand that Oliver was too frazzled in Central City (except he went to see BM after Savage was defeated) but he really should have thought things over and worked everything out on the trip back to Star City. .

 

Speaking of who has what money, it's ironic that Oliver has none of his own at this point and is living off of Thea's (inherited from Malcolm) and Felicity's (salary as CEO and inherited from Ray) because Thea threw a hissy fit when they were trying to get her to sign the documents to protect the Queen trust funds.

[kismet]

Speaking of who has what money, it's ironic that Oliver has none of his own at this point and is living off of Thea's (inherited from Malcolm) and Felicity's (salary as CEO and inherited from Ray) because Thea threw a hissy fit when they were trying to get her to sign the documents to protect the Queen trust funds.

This will forever piss me off, that they couldn't fix this problem in the summer offscreen when IR died. Just undo it and give OQ his money to play with. Nobody cares if it is realistic. There is no amazing plot line they wrote that needed OQ poor. Have him lose his company, but keep the trust money intact. The only thing good that came out of it was that one line about FS having to buy him a bed. But they still could have kept that in.

 

Personally, I would have loved to see OQ still earning money from residual shares in PT. RP could have bought controlling interest & be CEO and OQ could just be cashing the profit checks.

[diebartdie]

(Posted this a couple of days ago but it seems to have disappeared...)

 

Moira was never a fool and would not have relied on a simple check to get BM out of town. She would have had the money wired to an account in CC and then have kept an eye on her grandchild. After all, it was currently the only heir to the Queen fortunes unless and until Laurel produced one.

 

(On the other hand, if it was just a simple check, good luck, BM, on getting that cashed!)

I always thought Moira assumed she (whatever the character's name, I cant remember, I think yall are calling her BM for BabyMama?) would have an abortion and go on to live a fabulous life on a million dollars before tax. Instead she managed to be a single mom and still have a pretty great life that Oliver somehow ruined by knocking her up (birth control, look into it BM)

[AudienceofOne]

So I know what this forum is literally for, but I still find it surprising that people are working so hard to understand a one-note character designed solely to put a wedge between Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Of course she makes no sense. Juvenile writing usually doesn't.

[morakot]

I always thought Moira assumed she (whatever the character's name, I cant remember, I think yall are calling her BM for BabyMama?) would have an abortion and go on to live a fabulous life on a million dollars before tax.

 

 

 

​I still think Moira would have followed up to make sure her money was being used properly.

 

[kismet]

If BM cashed the first million dollars, then that would have been sufficient for MQ first bribery demands. And then if William was born after the Gambit went down. I could see how MQ in her grief/guilt might have forgotten about an additional random million dollar check. It's not like a million dollars was a lot for MQ.

 

I do feel like perhaps when the grief cleared, she might have kept tabs on William. But if BM was doing a decent job raising him, then there was no reason for MQ to interfere. And it's not like she was gonna throw more money her way without drawing attention to the child.

 

I do really wish we had MQ alive for this love child plot line because I think it could have been so much better.

[statsgirl]

I think the Baby Mama told Moira she was going to keep the child. Moira wanted her to keep it far away from Oliver.

 

I wonder how salient this storyline would have been if a. Moira were still alive and b. Laurel was the one he was dating.  Of the three important people regularly on the show, two have been removed from the story.

[EmeraldArcher]

@kismet--now that you bring it up, I'm shocked Moira didn't try to insert herself into William's life when the Gambit went down. She paid off BM--from one mother to another--so that both their children could have the lives they deserved. Her whole motivation was to make Ollie's troubles go away. But I don't understand why when her beautiful boy died, she didn't seek out his beautiful boy, given how she would do whatever it takes* for her family.

*I swear, I thought BM was going to say that line, which has been used to justify doing either murderous or suicidal shit, when she was talking about what she'd do to protect William. I had one moment of panic that she was a future Queen before she swerved and altered the line just enough that I've been mostly able to function.

Edited December 7, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[statsgirl]

Moira hit a major depression when the Gambit went down.  As Thea told Oliver, she stayed in her room and refused to do anything, including parent her remaining child.  And then when she pulled herself together, there was the QC issue to deal with.  She had to learn to how to be a CEO (with Malcolm's help, ugh) and keep the company from failing.

 

It may be that she looked to see how Samantha and her grandchild were doing, saw that they were okay, and put it off for a few years till he needed a good prep school.

[kismet]

I feel like Moira was really messed up for years after the Gambit went down. When she finally came back to her new normal, she probably felt the child was better off not being a target of MM. It was probably her protecting her grandson in a way that she couldn't protect OQ or RQ. I have no doubt that if OQ had never comeback, and MQ was able to get MM under control she probably would have sought William out when he was older. But he was just too young and the situation was just too unstable with MM.

[steelyis]

When she read that Moira died, then would have been the time to get in touch with Oliver and tell him. 

 

But she didn't want to. She didn't want him in Williams life at all, and that's all on her.  If she died suddenly, would her son have been left an orphan at the mercy of more distant relatives?

 

 

She is literally the worst.

 

 

I dont get Samantha at all. She claims Oliver somehow took everything from her, I guess by somehow forcing her to be a single mom. Well that house she's got was seriously awesome. My spouse and I both have decent jobs and our house is not anywhere near as sweet as hers. So she apparently, without cashing that million dollar check managed to do things to have a GREAT life (judging by the house, her clothes, how well behaved her son is) and yet she still harbors a grudge against Oliver? Seriously? It was his mother who was all under handed, Oliver would have married her and helped raise that kid and in fact, had THAT happened, the Arrow never would have happened. She SUCKS and everyone here who has pointed out how easy it would be for Oliver to just stroll on down to the lawyer and secure AT LEAST visitation rights to his son is so right on the money. That whole scenario is just bullshit. ALSO, even though that timeline got erased it was still utter bullshit for Felicity to dump Oliver like that and in that moment. FFS, it was not Felicity's first time at the rodeo, she would have bided her time until the immediate crisis was over before TALKING to Oliver about the paternity test. Seriously, that just came out of NOWHERE. Besides that bullshit though, I really enjoyed both sides of the crossover episode.

 

 

Bullshit like Oliver and his secret love child is why I gave up on Arrow last season. The drama is so sloppily manufactured it ruins everything else I might like about the show.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I have watched enough shows with vampires and demons that I know you don't just leave the ashes of your enemy in a big pile so I was yelling at the tv when everyone just turned and walked away from Vandal's ashes. Come on, people! You scoop up the ashes into multiple piles and then bury them thousands of miles apart just to be on the safe side. So when Malcolm came back and started gleefully shoveling Vandal's ashes, I just rolled my eyes and said DAMN IT.

[arjumand]

I've been trying to come up with a reaction to this episode for a few days. I already said, in one of the social media threads, how much I dislike the soapiness of the secret baby drama. One thing it's done, it's managed to completely sour me on Legends of Tomorrow. The Hawk couple are forever tainted by this episode, for me. I like Sara, so maybe I'll give it a chance just for her. But I'm not looking forward to it as much as I was.

 

I don't even feel like rewatching this episode - usually I watch every ep twice or more, especially when I'm writing and want to remember the way Oliver and Felicity speak - this time, I'm just tired. Because of the time travel conceit, we had to sit through Samantha nonsense twice, all with the knowledge that the writers were probably high-fiving each other for being so emotionally real, man. It's just nonsense.

 

I'm glad some viewers were able to enjoy Oliver interacting with his son, I just couldn't. Not when I knew it was going to be at the cost of his new found emotional honesty. I've read a couple of reaction fics, and one of the better written ones had Felicity realising that what was bothering Oliver had to be connected to his family, as it's the only thing which affected him that much. And she's right. So, thank you, whoever wrote this. You've manged to imply that Felicity is not family, at least not to Oliver. Oh, they'll deny it, of course. But that's how it comes across.

 

So, I'm not angry about it, I guess. I'm just meh. In a way I've never been, not even in the depths of Season 3.

 

I've just watched the latest episode of Brooklyn 99. It's a sad day when the relationships (whether romantic or friendships) are more mature on a half-hour cop sitcom than on Arrow.

[bijoux]

They really didn't sweat all that much about fighting an immortal, did they? I mean, Oliver's off looking into his potential kid and Barry goes to work. I don't really get why he came to the farm in the first place only to go back to CC. Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to finish what he had to do there and then go to the farm? And if Dig was looking into Savage through Lyla and her Argus connections, erm, he lives with her? He could have done that before leaving? Thinking about this episode longer only makes its faults more obvious.

[kismet]

They really didn't sweat all that much about fighting an immortal, did they? I mean, Oliver's off looking into his potential kid and Barry goes to work. I don't really get why he came to the farm in the first place only to go back to CC. Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to finish what he had to do there and then go to the farm? And if Dig was looking into Savage through Lyla and her Argus connections, erm, he lives with her? He could have done that before leaving? Thinking about this episode longer only makes its faults more obvious.

Sometimes I wish the show would just own up to its limitations rather than always trying to make something plotty. They obviously chose the farmhouse because there was no place in CC that could accommodate shooting a group that big and also allow for the Hawks to train in privacy with the whole wings & flying. We as the audience are not dumb. Most of us have been watching TV for years, so we get there are limitations. Just tell us in script that you chose the farmhouse so that there was room for everyone and it could be a place far away from the city for the Hawks to train. You could also still keep TQs joke line in there which is honestly why they chose a farmhouse over making a CC set work.

 

Sometimes the writers seem to spend so much time trying to make the wrong things work for the plot to seem clever. And then in doing so, completely skim over the more important plot & character developments that need their attention.

[statsgirl]

I think the point of the farmhouse was to hide the Hawks while they figured out how to deal with Savage so it's understand why Barry could go to work while Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin figured things out.  I can't remember why they had to be in Central City though. Plotty plot plot.

 

I'm glad some viewers were able to enjoy Oliver interacting with his son, I just couldn't. Not when I knew it was going to be at the cost of his new found emotional honesty. I've read a couple of reaction fics, and one of the better written ones had Felicity realising that what was bothering Oliver had to be connected to his family, as it's the only thing which affected him that much. And she's right. So, thank you, whoever wrote this. You've manged to imply that Felicity is not family, at least not to Oliver. Oh, they'll deny it, of course. But that's how it comes across.

It's a mess and I don't know how they'll fix it, but seeing Oliver play with William did nothing for me either.

 

Is this the fic you meant Some Love Was Made For the Lights?

[Genki]

I re-watched the Kid intro scene, Sa was good but, the kid actor, not great. So it come off as even more not worth the regression in Oliver's character or the introduction of Secrets & Lies into Olicity's relationship.

[statsgirl]

Does David Rappaport cast OUaT too?  Because that show has awesome kid actors.

 

If they do, then I assume they cast the kid for looks to match SA's and not acting ability, which leads to the idea that he won't be on screen all that much.

[kismet]

Not sure if the kid can act or not. We really haven't seen him have to do much besides drop an action figure and play with action figures. And he was at least very adorable in those scenes. But I do have to give props to the casting dept for casting a child that looks like he could be the biological mixing of OQ & BM.

[dtissagirl]

Per IMDb, the kid has never done anything else, so there's no way to know if he can act, unless he comes back. Which. UGH.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6752751/reference

Edited December 7, 2015 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

Per IMDb, the kid has never done anything else, so there's no way to know if he can act, unless he comes back. Which. UGH.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6752751/reference

 

It's okay, we don't need to know if he can act that badly.

[dtissagirl]

Sending both kid and BM down to Mandyville, never to be heard of again, is something I would 100% approve.

[bijoux]

I think the point of the farmhouse was to hide the Hawks while they figured out how to deal with Savage so it's understand why Barry could go to work while Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin figured things out.  I can't remember why they had to be in Central City though. Plotty plot plot.

 

That's where VS was and they planned to face him. The farm is not a problem in and of itself. It's the sequence of events that didn't make sense. There was no reason for Barry to be there early on apart from another nudge, nudge, Barry's always late. And as I said, showing him hanging out in his lab doesn't really scream 'this is a big effing deal, we're fighting an immortl, something most of the twenty of us have any experience and none have success. Although, I'm with Barry that he and Poliver tied with Savage on the Flash portion.

[arjumand]

I think the point of the farmhouse was to hide the Hawks while they figured out how to deal with Savage so it's understand why Barry could go to work while Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin figured things out.  I can't remember why they had to be in Central City though. Plotty plot plot.

 

It's a mess and I don't know how they'll fix it, but seeing Oliver play with William did nothing for me either.

 

Is this the fic you meant Some Love Was Made For the Lights?

 

Don't you get it? The Flash episode was in Starling, sorry, Star City, so the Arrow episode had to be in Central City! High fives in the writers' room! Nailed it! Ugh.

 

Yes, that's the fic I meant - I made much the same comment on it (I'm lisbei on AO3) - it's a heartbreaking realization for Felicity. Will it ever happen on the show? Nope. I guess we're supposed to accept that a biological son he's never known, and who he hasn't seen growing up, should mean more than the person who's been by his side for three years (even when he kicked her to the curb, he still expected her to be part of his mission, and she followed suit) and who has put up with all his shit. Ok then.

[Manirys]

Seriously, Arrow? The only way that Felicity could be have been more out of character throughout that sequence is if she was played by Sean Connery. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I would love to see Sean Connery rocking a high ponytail and one of Felicity's outfits!

[quarks]

I would love to see Sean Connery rocking a high ponytail and one of Felicity's outfits!

 

Start the social media campaign!

[apinknightmare]

Felischity Schmoak. 

[kes0704]

It's a mess and I don't know how they'll fix it, but seeing Oliver play with William did nothing for me either.

I fast forwarded through that bit...but I used the FF button a Lot towards then end of the episode. Lack of interest and self-preservation started to kick in at a certain point. Edited December 8, 2015 by kes0704

[KirkB]

I'm not entirely sure what makes Savage so scary. Sure, he can fight, and he is immortal, but that just means he doesn't die. He's not invulnerable to harm. You can shoot him. A rocket launcher should do some damage, surely Argus could scrounge up one. Or better yet, since these numbskulls let his ashes just lay around for Malcolm to play with you could fill him full of arrows, wrap him in chains, stick him in a metal box, cover it in steel reinforced concrete and dump it in the deepest part of the ocean. He'll have a lot of time to think about his life choices. 

[tarotx]

We the audience knows Malcolm has bought back Savage but I think The LOT team will think he was reincarnated like the Hawks. Malcolm knows though so he probably a player in at least 1 episode of LOT. I think LOT will go back in time to undo small things that will send ripples in time that will affect RIP's reasons for asembling his "legends".