S11.E07: Plush

[Tara Ariano]

Sheriff Donna calls Sam and Dean for help after a horrific murder with supernatural elements occurs in her town. Meanwhile, Sam continues to have visions and asks God for help, which frustrates Dean.

[Mick Lady]

Love Donna!

 

catrox! This is your cue! It's Wed somewhere! Three, two, one...

[catrox14]

Sorry. sorry....got busy! ON IT!!!

[SueB]

I'm remarkably attached to this little tradition.

[Mick Lady]

I'm remarkably attached to this little tradition.

 

Why thank you SueB! I am too, and I appreciate you saying so.

[shoetingstar]

Yeah for Donna! Hopefully she will distract from the suckage that is the current "Mara" actress. I hope she has a hottie boyfriend too.

[bettername2come]

Am I the only Flash fan who giggled at young Barry Allen once again yelling about a relative being falsely accused of a horrible crime? I think that actor has officially been typecast.

 

I wish the clown showing up had been a surprise. I liked the episode.

[Frost]

Loved it! Donna was great and the masks were seriously creepy. The director did a great job. That slow pan in on the rabbit head freaked me out. I'm ready to turn on my security system right now!!!

Although, as a Minnesotan, there is no Larsen County and Cottage Grove and Woodbury are basically suburbs of St Paul. Why did Donna leave Hibbing?

The anvils about trusting your brother were as heavy and cumbersome as ever.

[Jediknight]

Am I the only Flash fan who giggled at young Barry Allen once again yelling about a relative being falsely accused of a horrible crime? I think that actor has officially been typecast.

Yeah, poor kid almost lost his mother again.  But his mother really should have put a call into her ex boyfriend's place of employment.  I'm pretty sure Angel could have solved this entire thing quickly.

 

Loved the return of Donna.  Her interaction with Dean kind of reminds me what Stephen Amell said about Emily Bett Rickards.  After their first scene together Amell immediately requested more scenes with her because it was actually a time that Oliver got to smile.  This has been the most Dean smiled since the last episode with Donna.

[bethy]

I really enjoyed this one. I love Donna (though I did keep hoping for some Jody, too) and her relationships with the boys. Them worrying about or, at least, taking notice of her romantic life made me smile. 

 

Plus, the clown/mascot/rabbit/deer things were super creepy. Sam in the elevator with the clown was great. It was fun to see him gearing up to go after it. And if that dude was 60, he looked rode hard and put away wet. My dad's almost 80 and he looks years younger than that guy.

 

Poor little Barry. He has had hard luck with relatives.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I liked it too! They seemed to tone down some of the OTT Donna stuff and I enjoyed her this episode.

The masks were creepy and the bunny staring was really well done.

Smiling Dean is always an extra dash of pretty - that alone will make me like an episode!

[catrox14]

So, that was....weird. Uneven.  Just like my incoming comments. Maybe I'm just not understanding this season but IMO there was a lot of pod!Dean and pod!Sam in this episode, IMO.

 

I like that we got that cool "Baby" throwback moment of watching the guys walk to the house from her backseat.  That makes me feel like she's part of things.

 

Dean's reactions to Sam praying to God and the Cage reveal:

 

1) Okay, I don't for two minutes believe that the Dean we've had for that past two seasons is going to shame Sam for praying to God. I didn't buy his questioning it in "Baby" very much either but I talked myself out of that. And here he's back to saying "We talked about this". It SEEMS in character but it also doesn't jibe with this theme of Dean allowing Sam to do his thing that was established in 11.01. Nor with the Dean that we've seen regret his choices for the past two seasons.

 

Dean acknowledged in Paint it Black that he believes there is a God but he's not so sure God believes in humans anymore when he confessed to the priest when he had the Mark.  I never had the impression at that time that Dean was angry with God at all in that confession, just really sad more than anything.

 

2) I'm glad they finally acknowledged Sam seeing the Cage, but I really don't buy Dean's reaction to it. I don't think he would dismiss it out of hand like that given EVERYTHING they've been through. He knows too much and was a damn demon to just shut down that way.

 

Even if he's terrified that Sam would try to do something stupid or it dredges up his own PTSD (HAHAHA FAT CHANCE the show actually addresses that with Dean) I really don't believe he would just be like NOPE not happening. It just didn't FEEL like the Dean we have seen for that past 3 seasons. Once more it feels like pod!Dean than Dean IMO

 

So because of all these reactions and my ongoing pod!Dean theory IMO Amara has been influencing him  A LOT more than is being explained to us. IMO Amara is using Dean to speak for her.

 

I think Amara is the one that doesn't want Sam praying to God and is the one speaking about God not helping because of her anger and resentment towards God for locking her away. That God ignored HER prayers and pleadings to not lock her away. IMO she doesn't want Sam anywhere near the Cage because then she has to worry about Sam finding a way to lock her back up by getting Sam getting help from Lucifer and Michael. So she's going to use Dean to stop Sam from doing that. 

 

Dean looked afraid but it wasn't DEAN's afraid face and it wasn't Dean's "I'm the boss of you,  All season Dean has been either too soft or too awkward or too gruff and being all overly 'grr argh' with the salt gun was weird.

 

So much pod!Dean and a lot of pod!Sam in this episode. Dean was weirdly awkward with Donna IMO. There wasn't that ease once they were in each other's company.  That easy way seemed forced here.

 

Sam lecturing Donna about Doug is utter bullshit. He would not do that. He has no reason to do that. That was totally out of left field and yes Sam can be judgy but again that doesn't jibe with the Sam that we saw all last season, who was starting to see things differently. 

 

ETA: IF this IS supposed to real!Dean then welp I don't get it. I don't get the character regression and I felt that with Sam here too. This overly bitchy Sam about Donna with Doug (WTF).

 

I'm just going be over here in my corner of the world not understanding WTF the show is doing with Dean and now Sam.

 

 

I'll be back after a rewatch, but this was just ....weird. And I feel more and more things are rotten in D

Edited November 19, 2015 by catrox14

[Triskan]

Well, I thought it would be a much more boring filler episode...

 

After six "plot building" episodes in a row, I can forgive them for that one which was better than expected (though definitly not on par with the previous six !)

[Ferniesfreckles]

That rabbit head was super creepy.

Clowns are evil.

Sheriff Donna lost some weight. They name the uncle Chester? Really, show??

What a depressing, weird, unsettling episode.

Forgot to say that I really like Sherriff Donna in general but she wasn't acting in her usual happy, aww-shucks sort of way.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Ferniesfreckles

[mustbekarma]

Loved it! Donna was great and the masks were seriously creepy. The director did a great job. That slow pan in on the rabbit head freaked me out.

 

I yelled "Harvey!" Then I giggled. I guess a standard haunting was OK, but I was hoping for a Pooka.

 

I might have starred as Veta Louise Simmons in a stage production of Harvey while I was in college.

Edited November 19, 2015 by mustbekarma

[Goldmoon]

I thought this was great as old school Supernatural.  The clunky moments aside.  The masks were creepy though I thought that the brothers weren't on their game.

 

1. Glad that Donna ended the episode alive.

2. Very pissed off that Dean was dismissive of her hug at the end of the ep. 

3. Disappointed they felt they had to give Donna a love interest.

4.  Donna's alive.

 

Dean is far too dismissive of Sam's concerns or prayers.  Even if he doesn't believe in them, he is just being far to casual about blowing off Sam when Sam speaks.  Dude should be a better brother than that after all this time.

[catrox14]

 

3. Disappointed they felt they had to give Donna a love interest.

 

Unless I missed something I didn't think she was actually with new!Doug. He has a crush on her but I don't think he's necessarily HER love interest. 

[Mick Lady]

Catrox, Mick and I agree. You're on to something here. Dean getting on Sam's case for praying was way out of line. We hated it! As for the cage vision, Dean would know it was valid! WTF?

 

I now believe Dean is under the influence of Amara. I had hoped you were wrong, but now I wonder.

 

Other than this, I loved the episode! Donna's reaction to being called "A Hunter" was priceless!

[Commando Cody]

 They named the uncle Chester? Really, show??

 

 

That was more or less my thought as soon as they said his name.. Nobody came right out and said it in the episode.  I was kind of surprised. 

[Mick Lady]

Have to ask, is there an episode next week? No previews shown here. Are they doing a holiday break?

[Jediknight]

Have to ask, is there an episode next week? No previews shown here. Are they doing a holiday break?

They're doing a holiday break.  So the next episode will be in 2 weeks.

[catrox14]

More thoughts. 

 

Putting on masks, pretending to be something they are not. Robot Puppet Man last week....IMO everyone is wearing a mask/and/or a puppet:  Dean, Sam, Crowley. The question is who is the Puppemaster for each of them.

 

Unless the show pulls something out of it's ass, Dean's Puppetmaster is almost surely Amara, Sam is probably Lucifer, Crowley's is ??, Cas was Rowena's puppy-puppet not sure now much is still an influence from the spell but enough to keep him from leaving the bunker.

 

Here's another weird thing.

 

I see a bit with Sam but again, moreso with Dean. I feel like I'm watching them THINK about how to hunt. I can't explain it any other way. It's one thing for exposition but this is not the same. It's a subtle thing that I would ordinarily put down to poor writing or lazy acting but this is Jensen Fucking Ackles here.  I've noticed it in EVERY episode so I just can't believe it's not intentional. Not after 6 or 7 episodes. 

 

Dean saying things like "Well that's cool, but I'm gonna use a shotgun" and then making a big production of whipping out a salt gun with Donna. It's like the smoothness of 25 years of hunting is not natural anymore.  Dean being awkward around a kid?? Nope. He bonds with kids. 

 

I see it with Sam too...like here with him delivering an awkward pun....like why?  And at times he seems OVERLY smug...

 

I continue to love Donna. I love that she's 'officially' a hunter now. Of course, it also terrifies me how long she stays alive 0_0 because of that.

Edited November 19, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

They're doing a holiday break.  So the next episode will be in 2 weeks.

 

Aw, hell! Guess I cook my Thanksgiving pies that night instead of during the day like I originally planned.

[AwesomO4000]

Have to ask, is there an episode next week? No previews shown here. Are they doing a holiday break?

 

I just checked my VCR and it said Wed, Dec 2. It's the imaginary friend episode.

 

As for this episode, I'm not positive what I think about it yet. Dean does seem to be a bit bossier than he has been in the past, and I'm thinking guilt is maybe what's keeping Sam from complaining more... otherwise I would be expecting a "this isn't working" talk to renegotiate their working relationship coming in the future.

 

I see it with Sam too...like here with him delivering an awkward pun....like why?  And at times he seems OVERLY smug...

 

I missed the smug - except for the thing with Donna about Doug, which was weird - but the awkward pun thing? Maybe Sam is noticing that something is off with Dean and he's trying to connect with him? I think maybe Sam feels a bit out of sorts that the stuff he's trying to get a handle on how to fight Amara is falling on deaf ears and he feels disconnected with Dean. And Dean does seem to not want to move forward on getting a handle on Amara... a big change from his "let's go get her now!" not too long ago (was that last week or the week before?) I think Sam is thrown off his game, because he can't figure out what's going on with Dean here. That's my theory.

 

Catrox, Mick and I agree. You're on to something here. Dean getting on Sam's case for praying was way out of line. We hated it! As for the cage vision, Dean would know it was valid! WTF?

 

I now believe Dean is under the influence of Amara. I had hoped you were wrong, but now I wonder.

 

Yes. We know Dean doesn't want to hear anything that might mean Sam has to get involved with Lucifer here... but what he was saying almost seemed to be implying more than that... like he thought either Sam didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't possibly be right or that Sam should just forget it because he'd totally mess it up - which may be true, but still kinda harsh. I mean, if Dean had more said "No, Sam. I don't want you thinking along those lines. Lucifer is too dangerous and we don't know enough yet." I would've felt Dean's concern more. But this seemed less "concern" and more, I can only call it annoyance. That's the vibe I'm getting. Dean seems unnecessarily annoyed with anything Sam wants to try or suggest.

[catrox14]

I admit I was kind of disappointed that the boys didn't give Donna a plaid shirt to confirm her hunter status.

 

 

Okay I'm obsessed. I'm sorry.  Dean's reaction to Sam talking about the Cage

To add onto what I mentioned above....

 

 

Sam: "The Cage"

Dean: "Lucifer's Cage?" Dean's reaction was like he'd never heard of the damn thing. Now maybe that was just clunky exposition but I think Dean would have said something like "THE cage??" Wait, are you talking to Lucifer again". Like seriously, how is that NOT the first question out of his mouth? So, I just have to believe it's intentional.

 

Okay another question. How is Sam even able to withstand visions of the Cage? Like shouldn't the Wall be cracking again and taking him down crazy town lane?

[AwesomO4000]

Okay another question. How is Sam even able to withstand visions of the Cage? Like shouldn't the Wall be cracking again and taking him down crazy town lane?

 

Sam doesn't have a wall anymore. Castiel broke that, and it was completely shattered when Sam went crazy and ended up in the mental ward in season 7. Castiel specifically said that the wall was completely gone, so rebuilding it was not an option. So Sam has the memories, but I think somehow Castiel muted them or something to fix Sam's crazy. (We know Sam still has them in some capacity, because the witch used them against Sam in the episode that shall not be named). But since these visions are fairly vivid, Sam understandably freaks out afterwards, because they have to be uncomfortably bringing stuff to the surface.

[catrox14]

Sam doesn't have a wall anymore. Castiel broke that, and it was completely shattered when Sam went crazy and ended up in the mental ward in season 7. Castiel specifically said that the wall was completely gone, so rebuilding it was not an option. So Sam has the memories, but I think somehow Castiel muted them or something to fix Sam's crazy. (We know Sam still has them in some capacity, because the witch used them against Sam in the episode that shall not be named). But since these visions are fairly vivid, Sam understandably freaks out afterwards, because they have to be uncomfortably bringing stuff to the surface.

 

 

I guess that's what I really meant. He hasn't had the visions of Lucifer since s7 so I'm trying to understand why he's not really cracking now.  I'm not being snarky against Sam. I'm saying how is he not completely incapacitated by the visions of his eyeballs being opened against their will and the hooks in his torso...since he's not really completely healed from all that. 

 

Again, it's just something that makes me question how much of Sam here is Sam. Pod!Sam

[rue721]

Very creepy episode! Those masks...*shudder.*

 

Great Things:

 

The costumes! Fantastic. This episode had a great look altogether imo. Was it my imagination, or did it also seem a tad more desaturated than usual? I even loved how Donna's hair was a little sloppy and frizzy, like an actual cop's would probably be, and that a lot of the scenes were filmed in low light. If the show could start sourcing music on screen more often -- having it come from radios and stuff, and desaturate even more, and make things even more grim/grimy/natural-looking, I would be in heaven :). Maybe we'll even eventually get the guys back at a squat! :P.

 

I had to cover my eyes when the clown took out the scalpel. That has to win as the most skin-crawling moment -- and in an episode with a lot of skin-crawling moments.

 

This episode had piles and piles of nightmare fuel! (I love that. The creepy, quiet, dark tone was also wonderful -- and trademark SPN, imo. The contrast between an episode like this and the decadent silliness of American Horror Story just makes me love SPN even more).

 

Everything about Sam when the elevator doors opened and the worst clown in the world got in with him. And that they just stood there awkwardly for a good 30 seconds, apparently wondering if they could just go ahead down to the lobby without making a ~thing~ out of it.

 

The guys saved people! Again! I love that the show is back to focusing more on the "saving people" than the "hunting things."

 

The monster was once again sympathetic yet scary as shit and totally irredeemable. That's probably the most throwback/S1 thing about the current season, imo, and I love it. I think that the show is both more human and scarier like this.

 

Sam: "The Cage"

Dean: "Lucifer's Cage?" Dean's reaction was like he'd never heard of the damn thing.

 

To me, Dean seemed like he was warning Sam to stay away from anything having to do with Lucifer or the Cage. I think that he acted so dismissive of Sam's visions because he doesn't want to give ANY credence to the idea that anything -- Lucifer or visions from him -- can get out of the Cage and get to Sam.

 

Tbh, I think it's reasonable that Dean isn't like, "yup, Sam, your old buddy, Lucifer, really is reaching out to you from the Cage -- probably because he's somehow breaking loose to come back for you." What kind of asshole would respond like that? Actually, I know what kind of asshole -- John would probably respond like that. Case in point:  Sam knew that it wasn't actual!John in his dream, because dream!John was "telling him what he wanted to hear." So apparently, John wouldn't have qualms about giving Sam bad news, like that Lucifer really does have a conduit back into his head. But in any case, Dean specifically would be unlikely to respond like that. I think it would be pretty OOC for Dean to immediately start stoking Sam's fears and explicitly giving credence to the idea that Sam could be in league with Satan.

 

Also, Sam has been having Hellucinations and "visions" of Lucifer for years on end. There's not really any reason for Dean to think that this time, Sam is actually communicating with Lucifer, even though he hasn't been communicating with him up to now. From the perspective of the audience, it's clear that something different and important is happening because we're being shown Sam's dreams and visions whereas we weren't for a long time (and we know there's got to be a narrative reason for that). But from the perspective of any character (besides Sam) within the show, Sam has just been dreaming about his dead father and having flashbacks to the place where he was tortured. That's pretty normal on its face and doesn't really require a metaphysical/supernatural explanation.

 

Of course, Sam is probably correct that there IS a metaphysical/supernatural explanation. But I can see why other characters (i.e., Dean) would still be assuming that the more mundane, ordinary explanations, like "he's dreaming about his dead father because he misses him," are more plausible. In Dean's case especially, because he in particular has had very similar dreams about his dead father and very similar flashbacks to the place where he was tortured, and for him, the more mundane, ordinary explanations were correct. 

 

They seemed to tone down some of the OTT Donna stuff and I enjoyed her this episode.

 

I agree. Donna has been a bit much for me in the past, but I liked her more in this one.

 

It's not so much that I've ever disliked her, it's just been hard for me to buy her as a character or take her at all seriously. They at least sort of "played it straight" in this episode, though, and I appreciated that. YMMV.

 

Plus, the clown/mascot/rabbit/deer things were super creepy. Sam in the elevator with the clown was great. It was fun to see him gearing up to go after it.

 

Completely agree!

Edited November 19, 2015 by rue721

[Demented Daisy]

God is showing up this season, I'm sure of it.  They've been talking about Him too much for it not to happen at this point.  Possibly in the mid-season finale.  I halfway expected Him to pop up in the backseat of the Impala there at the end of the episode.  

 

As for the episode itself, it was fine.  I wish they would stop trying to recapture the feel of the earlier seasons because it's just not working for me.  I would not have been surprised if, at some point, one of them rolled their eyes when they figured out it was a ghost killing people.  They've done that story so many times before -- this episode reminded me of Yellow Fever quite a bit.  

 

I'm not convinced about the Pod Sam/Dean theory.  Frankly, I don't think the show is capable of that kind of subtlety.  I'm still leaning towards bad writing and/or new writers who don't know Sam or Dean's "voice" yet.  *shrug*

 

Edited for clarity.  Gotta do a better job of proofreading.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

Quick thoughts before I get on a plane

- nightmare fuel indeed

- Donna! Awesome

- IMO Dean's instinctual anti-God stance is Amara protectiveness. And I think he doesn't realize that. I think he's afraid Sam's losing his mind again. To protective (of Sam) Dean, this could be the Hallucifer road trip again. And he's annoyed because he thought that shit was behind him. Not annoyed at Sam, just mad that they have to deal with something ELSE. He's going to be a doubting Thomas about Sam cage visions even without Amara IMO.

- Yay Donna didn't die.

-Return of the innocent victims.

-I was a little surprised by Sam pushing Donna to rethink Doug. But she WAS giving him a hard time just because of his name. I don't think she had a new beau at the end, but I think she can be friendly with him now and stop projecting her ex all over him. I attribute the clunkiness to either writing or editing. Maybe there was a cut scene where Sam saw Donna be even more snappish. I have to rewatch.

- I liked the reminded that vegeful spirits can be hella-dangerous.

[Omegamom]

Anvilicious!

"I should have gone to my brother...I should have talked to him first..."

"Fear cripples you...makes you do...nothing...or, worse, it makes you do something you regret..." Sam was really listening to the first--he told Dean about his visions and what they were about--but I'm not sure he listened to the second, which I'm damned sure is going to come back. Fear of The Darness is going to make either Sam or Dean do something they'll regret.

And Dean's reaction about the Cage: "It's suicide, man!" That's worried Dean, to me, being fearful for his bro.

Holy moly, the masks were creepy!

I howled when the clown got in the elevator with Sam. Poor Sam! But he pulled himself together and took care of it, yay! The "60-year-old" guy? He was obviously a meth-head in younger days, cuz he sure didn't look 60 to me. ;-)

Donna was great. She has been being toned down--the first appearance, she was OOT, the second, less so, and now she's just a real capable human being. Yay! A wee tad defensive, but that's okay. She probably got hell in police academy for being small and cute and bubbly, and wanting to be a cop. She was so excited about being called a Hunter!

"Chester". Really, show? Fine as a placeholder while you're writing the script, but it should have been changed once they started filming.

Speaking of shooting, why the hell did Dean pull out the salt shotgun? The guy was close enough to just throw Donna's salt at him. Overkill.

Dean not being cool with God is well-established in canon, so that didn't bother me.

I really liked the episode. No calls to Cas, though. :-( But there was a shout-out, all the lore he had collected from the Middle East. Anyway, the episode was nice and creepy and fun.

[Primetimer]

He may not be all that helpful, but he does know a lot about children, and revenge.

Read the story

[Bruinsfan]

I liked that there was nothing in all the lore they found about The Darkness, as there shouldn't be. It's been sealed off from Creation since its very inception; I'd imagine even Death only had secondhand knowledge about it passed down from God. (And as we'd previously been led to believe Death was MUCH older and vaster than even the archangels, Lucifer and Michael shouldn't have any direct experience of it either. Up until this season all signs pointed to them being a relatively recent creation after the leviathans were banished a couple billion years ago.)

[catrox14]

Tbh, I think it's reasonable that Dean isn't like, "yup, Sam, your old buddy, Lucifer, really is reaching out to you from the Cage -- probably because he's somehow breaking loose to come back for you." What kind of asshole would respond like that? Actually, I know what kind of asshole -- John would probably respond like that. Case in point:  Sam knew that it wasn't actual!John in his dream, because dream!John was "telling him what he wanted to hear." So apparently, John wouldn't have qualms about giving Sam bad news, like that Lucifer really does have a conduit back into his head. But in any case, Dean specifically would be unlikely to respond like that. I think it would be pretty OOC for Dean to immediately start stoking Sam's fears and getting suspicious that he's literally in league with Satan

 

 

 

IMO the moment Dean hears the words The Cage, Dean KNOWS it's Lucifer's cage because there is NO other cage the boys have dealt with. Even if it was just exposition for new viewers with "LUCIFER'S cage?" Dean's mind would have gone straight to..."HOLY SHIT. Is Lucifer fucking with Sam again?".

 

How could it NOT considering that Lucifer is a pretty big deal in Sam and Dean's life and it's NOT ancient history either.  In show, time is the same as ours mostly. It's 2015 as far as we know in the show. That mean's it's only like 5 years since Sam became Samifer and jumped into the pit. And pretty much every year since like s3 Lucifer has been in the story either via discussion or action or presence in the episode and was still part of their lives as recently as Dean taking on the Mark of Cain which is from.....Lucifer. It's still that current for Dean and Sam.

 

So to me Sam not considering Lucifer might be messing with him again, once he got the vision of Lucifer's cage doesn't make sense. IMO Dean would either just sit there there quietly in shock until they got back to the bunker so he could process what Sam said, or he would have just straight up asked right away..."Sam.....are you sure that these aren't visions from Lucifer and not God"? It's a logical thing for Dean to consider given Sam's history with Lucifer. And as Awesome4000 reminded me, Sam has kind of gotten his mind under control, so I don't think him bringing it up is a cruel or mean thing and IMO it would be foolish of either one of them to not consider Lucifer as a more logical choice than God.

[Mick Lady]

Sam's visions started after he prayed, to God, in a chapel. I doubt even Lucifer could interfere with that. I think these visions come from God, and Lucifer (bearer of light) is the key to locking up Amara. That's what God is saying. Dean should respect this, and try to help Sam figure out what's happening, and why. At this point, they need all the help they can get.

 

The problem with this is that they cannot release Lucifer. The ramifications are too horrible to the world, and God help Crowley! I'll take this to spec. 

[catrox14]

 

O Dean's instinctual anti-God stance is Amara protectiveness. And I think he doesn't realize that. I think he's afraid Sam's losing his mind again. To protective (of Sam) Dean, this could be the Hallucifer road trip again. And he's annoyed because he thought that shit was behind him. Not annoyed at Sam, just mad that they have to deal with something ELSE. He's going to be a doubting Thomas about Sam cage visions even without Amara IMO.

 

I have the total opposite viewpoint.

 

Not that much time has passed in show since Dean had the MoC. It's been like what maybe two weeks or a month AT BEST as far as I can figure. Since then we've discussed here that maybe the Mark was still affecting Dean because he was behaving oddly. even after he lost the Mark because he was all kill all the zombie people!

 

I don't trust the showrunners and J2's mantra that neither Sam nor Dean are "afflicted" just because there is no MoC or demon-blood or being Lucifer Sam or Demon!Dean. I think Dean's been afflicted in some way since he woke up in that flower field.

 

Dude has been a demon, has been a murdering murderer and was hardcore hunter before he killed Death, so I'm not sure that he would drop into denial land about this NOW. To me this confused Dean has got to be because Amara is fucking with him because he's bound to her. For me, it's the only thing that makes Dean make sense this season.  

 

If they are trying to play it straight, then welp, the show has totally changed Dean Winchester and I don't like it and I don't understand it.  I can't even put it to the propping of Sam either. Because Sam isn't coming off all that great here either. 

 

Anyway, I'm gonna finish up my spec today about what I think might be going on beyond just Amara screwing around with Dean's mind and soul.

Edited November 19, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

And as Awesome4000 reminded me, Sam has kind of gotten his mind under control, so I don't think him bringing it up is a cruel or mean thing and IMO it would be foolish of either one of them to not consider Lucifer as a more logical choice than God.

 

I don't think Dean believes that anyone is communicating with Sam. I think he considers it normal for Sam to dream about their father, and he considers it normal for Sam to worry that Lucifer is getting into his head. Which makes sense, because Dean knows from personal experience that that IS normal for them; apparently, he himself dreams about John all the time, and Sam has dealt with worries and even hallucinations about Lucifer getting into his head for years and years now. The only worrisome "new" thing is that Sam is now apparently trying to reopen lines of communication with God by praying and with Lucifer by rattling the Cage -- so Dean is warning Sam off of doing those (dangerous!) things.

 

Sam thinks these dreams and visions are different from his usual, but so far, he hasn't really given anyone else any reason to think so. When Sam tells Dean things like, "I was dreaming about Dad, except then it seemed like he wasn't actually Dad, he seemed more like Lucifer wearing a Dad meat-suit!" -- I think it's reasonable for Dean to think, "OK, normal dream/nightmare then." Based on how the show is framing Sam's visions and dreams, I think that Sam is probably correct about what's going on, but I think Dean's presumptive theory that this is just normal human stuff is actually more plausible (despite probably being incorrect this time).

 

I think that the anvils about "trusting your brother" are aimed at Dean, because he's not buying Sam's hunch that these dreams and flashbacks are different than his usual dreams and flashbacks, and he's about to get proven wrong. But tbh, I get why Sam having basically normal dreams and flashbacks wouldn't raise alarms for Dean.

 

Sam's visions started after he prayed, to God, in a chapel. I doubt even Lucifer could interfere with that. I think these visions come from God, and Lucifer (bearer of light) is the key to locking up Amara.

 

To me, these dreams and visions seem too indirect and humble to be coming from God. I don't think that God would come to Sam in the guise of his human-being father. And if God were to take on a disguise, I don't think that he would flub the act so badly that Sam would pretty much immediately finger him as an imposter. I also don't think that God would tell Sam whatever he wanted to hear, or act as intimate/friendly with him as dream!John did (on this show, God and the angels seems to like formality). None of that seems to fit SPN!God's "personality" to me. Except for (possibly) Lucifer or Gabriel, it doesn't even seem to fit any angel's personality to me. (And Gabriel usually includes more irony in his tricks than have been in any of Sam's visions so far, so this stuff doesn't really seem like him to me, either).

 

The John dream, in which John was too nice, makes me think these visions are coming from a demon, actually. If anything, I think that God or an angel would make the mistake of making John seem too authoritative and direct, rather than too nice and supportive. Making John too unbelievably nice and understanding is exactly the "tell" that Azazel had when he was possessing John, though, and Crowley made a similar mistake when he was trying to trick Kevin into thinking that he was still in contact with Sam and Dean.

 

I also find it hard to believe that anybody who's not either incredibly cruel or within the Cage itself (or both) would be sending Sam visions of the Cage or encouraging him to go back into Hell, too. And not that they can't be cruel, but angels and God don't actually ever seem to use the threat of Hell against people, afaik -- which makes sense, imo, since they have their own prison system in Heaven and don't want to help out Hell by sending human souls down there anyway. The only reasons I can think of that someone would want Sam to go to the Cage/Hell are:  1. because they're in the Cage/Hell and need Sam's help, 2. they're trying to get Hell the "prize" of another human soul or maybe Sam Winchester's soul in particular. Both those possible reasons for the Cage visions point to the them coming from someone in or of Hell, imo.

 

Also, as a sidenote, Amara doesn't seem socially sophisticated enough to do something like send Sam a vision/dream of his father, so I think she's out of the running as a source for the visions, too.

Edited November 19, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

I don't think Dean believes that anyone is communicating with Sam. I think he considers it normal for Sam to dream about their father, and he considers it normal for Sam to worry that Lucifer is getting into his head. Which makes sense, because Dean knows from personal experience that that IS normal for them; apparently, he himself dreams about John all the time, and Sam has dealt with worries and even hallucinations about Lucifer getting into his head for years and years now. The only worrisome "new" thing is that Sam is now apparently trying to reopen lines of communication with God by praying and with Lucifer by rattling the Cage -- so Dean is warning Sam off of doing those (dangerous!) things.

 

Sam thinks these dreams and visions are different from his usual, but so far, he hasn't really given anyone else any reason to think so. When Sam tells Dean things like, "I was dreaming about Dad, except then it seemed like he wasn't actually Dad, he was Lucifer wearing a Dad meat-suit!" -- I think it's reasonable for Dean to think, "OK, normal dream/nightmare then." Based on how the show is framing Sam's visions and dreams, I think that Sam is probably correct about what's going on, but I think Dean's presumptive theory that this is just normal human stuff is actually more plausible (despite probably being incorrect this time).

 

I think that the anvils about "trusting your brother" are aimed at Dean, because he's not buying Sam's hunch that these dreams and flashbacks are different than his usual dreams and flashbacks, and he's about to get proven wrong. But tbh, I get why Sam having basically normal dreams and flashbacks wouldn't raise alarms for Dean.

 

I'm opposite viewpoint.

 

This isn't s2 or s3 where visions were a new thing. Dean KNOWS this is possible because it's already happened before.

 

Dean is not a naive man, especially with all that he's been through for the past 2 seasons what with being connected to the First Blade that gave him the ability to telekinectically move the Blade back to his hand and saying the Book of the Damned was affecting him. He saw Rowena take down 6 people with the attack dog spell and what it did to Cas after the fact.  Dean was a demon! Surely that gave him some kind of insights he didn't have before. Just nothing about pre-s11!Dean tells me he would reject all of this out of hand as nothing more than dreams.  That just does not track for me. At all. Even if Dean wanted desperately to believe it's not true, I think he would at least try to figure it out of his own accord even if he didn't bring the info to Sam.

 

Rue721, everything you are saying about Sam's visions makes sense to me as something Lucifer would do so that makes Dean's shock and apparent disbelief (which I'm side-eyeing)about Lucifer's cage even more stupid. So I guess Dean is just too emotional or stupid to let his hunter instincts work here? I can't buy into that. What does make sense to me is Dean being influenced from someone else towards being in opposition to Sam here.

 

We see Amara as a full grown woman in the Smog Monster. I suspect that whatever she has done to Dean happened then. I think Sam's presence snaps him out of whatever state he's in, so if Amara wants to settle the score with God, Lucifer and all the archangels for locking her away, she would have to break Dean away from Sam because Sam and maybe lesser extent Cas disrupts whatever thrall Amara has over Dean.

Edited November 19, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I agree with those who think that this is Lucifer. I speculated a ways back - after the first or second episode - that there was a reason that Sam didn't get the answer to his prayers while he was still in the chapel. He was there for a while, but it wasn't until after he left that he got the vision. Since Lucifer is an angel, he can maybe hear prayers too, but maybe he couldn't "answer" until Sam left the sanctuary of the chapel. And it isn't as if Lucifer can't go into or be contacted through churches - both have happened, and Lucifer broke into the world through a church - so I don't think he's entirely cut off. And since he's had a huge connection with Sam in the past, I don't think it's too far-fetched that he can still hear Sam if he calls for help. But it may not be Lucifer directly, either, but a demon agent near to the cage, but that maybe has better ability to communicate for Lucifer. I'm not sure on how that works.

 

I also agree that Dean is acting a bit fishy here in terms of what Sam is saying. If he's in denial... well how often does that work with Sam? Dean should know that any "because I'm the big brother, so just believe me this is nothing" protestations are not at all likely to work on Sam. Dean needs to discuss this with him openly and think through all of the consequences. When things like this happen - Sam wants answers. Just because Dean would rather go to Tijuana and ignore it doesn't mean that is going to happen. They've traveled this road before, and it generally ends badly. Dean should know that. Sam is throwing up all sorts of red flags here, and for Dean to ignore them is... well not like Dean of now in my opinion.

 

I think that the anvils about "trusting your brother" are aimed at Dean, because he's not buying Sam's hunch that these dreams and flashbacks are different than his usual dreams and flashbacks, and he's about to get proven wrong. But tbh, I get why Sam having basically normal dreams and flashbacks wouldn't raise alarms for Dean.

 

I think it could go either way. I think Sam is correct that these are visions, but I think Dean is correct that they are not visions from God... and I think he's also correct that they are going to lead to no good. And knowing this show, they likely will, in which case the anvils could be for Sam just as easily as they could be for Dean... Or maybe for both of them.

[catrox14]

 

I think it could go either way. I think Sam is correct that these are visions, but I think Dean is correct that they are not visions from God... and I think he's also correct that they are going to lead to no good. And knowing this show, they likely will, in which case the anvils could be for Sam just as easily as they could be for Dean... Or maybe for both of them.

 

You know, Carver said that the theme of this season, and Sheppard reiterated it is that 'The Boys Can't Outrun Their Past" or "They Have to Face the Consequences" or something to that effect. So I'm thinking this is going to go into the crapper for the both of them for different reasons.

 

I can buy that Dean doesn't believe the messages are from God, but I don't think he would disregard them being visions from Lucifer which why "his" disbelief or refuting that Lucifer is an issue again rings totally false with me. So if now!Dean (tm Awesome04000) doesn't believe it's God and disregards Lucifer, who the hell does he think it is?  What's now!Dean's motive for pushing both ideas away? 

[Mick Lady]

I get this great theory going, and Awesom0400 shoots it down perfectly!

 

Awesom0400, you bug the hell out of me sometimes! How did I not see your excellent points?

[DittyDotDot]

This one kinda got it's creep on, didn't it? Nice to know they can still somewhat do that. A bit heavy with the parallels and the dialogue, but those costumes were awesome. And the bridge scene had me squirming in my seat the way they shot it--sooo creepy! I never know what to expect with a Carmelo/Snyder episode, but at the end of the day I think I'll put this one in the win column.

 

I'm not sure the visions are from God or Lucifer. Seems too easy. Then again, with this show it usually is a duck if it walks like one. Bah!

 

Oh, and, I'm not scared of clowns, but may need to rethink my position on that.

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, and, I'm not scared of clowns, but may need to rethink my position on that.

 

 

When the clown showed up, I turned to my husband (who also has a tiny touch of coulrophobia) and said, "Why the hell would you wear that to entertain children?"  

 

Which reminds me -- why didn't the sister tell them about the deer head?  Did the son keep the head without telling her?  Seems implausible, but whatever.

[DittyDotDot]

When the clown showed up, I turned to my husband (who also has a tiny touch of coulrophobia) and said, "Why the hell would you wear that to entertain children?"  

 

Oh, when the sister said the guy was a entertainer of children I immediately thought, "For who, Pugsly and Wednesday?". All those costumes were delightfully creepy, but seriously...what did he do with that rabbit suit that wouldn't frighten most children?

[Mick Lady]

When the clown showed up, I turned to my husband (who also has a tiny touch of coulrophobia) and said, "Why the hell would you wear that to entertain children?"  

 

Which reminds me -- why didn't the sister tell them about the deer head?  Did the son keep the head without telling her?  Seems implausible, but whatever.

 

"Coulrophobia?" Who knew? I've had it for years. Ringley Brothers freaked me out as a kid. I am so in Sam's court on this one.

[Demented Daisy]

For Mick Lady and AwesomO (because I know how much she loves it so):

 

[Mick Lady]

This is Mick's clown story. He was an army brat, and when he was in Germany he went to see a clown named "Bobo" that had a TV show with his army base cub scout troop. There was this contest where the kids had to write a song. (This by the way, was on live German TV) Mick wrote a song, "Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Ha, ha I fooled you, I'm a submarine!" He won a flashlight! During a commercial break, he went up to Bobo and said, "I like you Bobo!" Bobo replied, "Shut  the fuck up kid. I'm busy" Broke Mick's heart.

[SueB]

*hugs Mick* sorry for that childhood trauma. People can be shitty sometimes.  *sigh*

 

I think it's a dead heat between creepy silent bunny head and clown with dripping scalpel.  Both are just freaking me out.  STILL.  

 

And you're all right .... what possessed us to think clowns were good things for children.  Do we secretly hate our young so we traumatize them with these creepy images??  IDK man.  I just know Supernatural has forever put me off clown.  Seriously, if someone was to mention going to see a clown, I'd probably shout out "and clowns kill!"  **shudders**

 

So... nice job in creating a creepy nightmare of an episode.  

 

Bits that made me happy:

1) Sam fighting off his fear.  Dude, you rock.  That was some next level scary shit right there.  I'm proud of you moose.  Someone give him a cookie.

2) "Wild hare".  Nice and corny joke Dean. I'm glad you found someone who actually appreciates them (Donna)!  It's like his running gag of ghoulpire and werepire.  Dean just wants his corny humor appreciated.  I like that consistency of character.

3) Donna is a delight. IA with others, she was toned down but she still a delight for me.  I worry she's been labeled a hunter. 

4) Sam praying.  I like that he has faith.  After ALL the crap that's happened to him, he hasn't given up on getting help.  Now... "faith" is not exactly the right term because the boys KNOW that God exists in the Supernatural universe. And they've met his sister.  But Sam still thinks they can get help from a higher power and that works for me.  

5) Cas went to GAZA???? Did he fly on an airplane?  I NEED THIS fic like air.  Did they make him a fake passport?  How did the stuff get BACK from Gaza? FedEx??? These are serious antiquities.  See, broken-wing Cas can probably knock people out with two fingers and all... but he can't invisible himself in and out can he?  Anyway, what I like is that the next logical move (given there was relevant lore in the bunker), is to go out and see if anything else exists.  And the mid-east is the right place to look for that.  So, at least they gave him a relevant task.  I'm just bummed they didn't give us any details about him and customs or something.  I miss Cas.  

 

Bits that I thought were well done:

1) Oy. The creepy plot about the "is he a molester or not"?  I THINK the show was saying it was a wrongful death -- which means those assholes murdered an innocent guy who just wanted to entertain kids.  What worked for me, however, is that this is a topic that can shake even the strongest relationships.  It seem like the sister had always been a staunch supporter.  But when she started to have doubts about her brother and her child... well, this is the kind of topic that brings out irrational thinking.  IMO she was wrong to not have talked about it with her brother --- no doubt. But I also can see the show making a bit of a point that some topics freak people out so much that they don't think clearly.  OTOH, I think the two assholes were just that ... assholes.  I think they were freaked by what they speculated and acted like bullies.  So... creepy topic, and I think they handled it well.  Except the name.  The name of the uncle was 6 kinds of wrong.

2) Dean's reaction to Sam's praying and his vision.  I'm not happy with it, BTW, but I think they've done a good job of setting up WHY Dean would act this way -- on multiple levels. As I said above, I think Dean's stronger this year on the anti-God stance in part because it brings out his protective instincts towards Amara.  And I believe he wants NOTHING to do with the Cage an made a definitive "don't go there statement" that is NEVER going to hold.  It's never held in the past.  I'm not sure why Dean thinks it's going to work now.  But Dean has this thing where he has an argument and then chunters about it in the next episode.  Like the whole God vision topic.  He dismissed it outright in Baby, then mentions it again in Thin Lizzy.  So... I think he KNOWS he has not got the "last word" on the topic but it's part of how he goes about these things.  He'll bring up the Cage again -- by next episode or the one after -- I'm sure.  He knows it's not over.  He's just pushing it away for a hot minute.  Personally, I'm fine with Dean's characterization this year.  He strikes me as someone who is completely unsettled and yet bluffing his way thru from one minute to the next.  In the season opener he said "A couple of hours ago, I just killed Death ... I'm ready for anything".  Oh no he's not.  But he's DESPERATELY trying to roll with the punches. Note: I KNOW others are unhappy about this.  I'm just saying I think it's interesting and going well.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

3) Donna character progression.  In Purge she was a bit brittle and very sad about her ex.  In Hibbing 911 she was very sad (kind of in the depression stage).  In this episode, it seems like she's found her footing and is being self-protective. Perhaps a little over the top but I think she's actually in a better place.  

4) Creepy as shit episode was creepy as shit.  

 

Bits I'm not happy about

1) A little too on-the-nose about trusting your brother and talking about stuff.  OTOH, I feel the pain of the writers sometimes.  They get shit about pulling stuff out of thin air at the same time that they get shit about anvils.  But for me, this was a little too obvious.

2) New Doug.  It's not that he's bad, but I don't want her to have a love interest. At least not another "Doug" on the police force.  IDK.  I know my Dean/Donna ship is just floating in my own universe's ocean -- but I would rather she got a studly guy if she's not getting Dean.  Not a just a "nice guy".  

3) Cas wasn't actually IN the episode.  I want his story to be more definitive than it is.

 

This was not a bad episode in my mind, but I probably won't watch it more than a couple of times due to the seriously nightmare-inducing imagery.  

[AwesomO4000]

For Mick Lady and AwesomO (because I know how much she loves it so):

 

 

Ahhhhh! Run Mick Lady and Mick! Save yourselves!

 

How are children not scared to go there? *shudders*

[Mick Lady]

On rewatch;

 

2) "Wild hare".  Nice and corny joke Dean. I'm glad you found someone who actually appreciates them (Donna)!  It's like his running gag of ghoulpire and werepire.  Dean just wants his corny humor appreciated.  I like that consistency of character.

 

 

Made me think of "Jefferson Starships" Not the same but shows a wonderful humorous side of Dean!

 

If anyone cares, when Dean asks the football player what he lifts, he said "four plates" A plate equals 45ibs, (to serious lifters) plus the bar which is also 45lbs. Mick is a serious lifter and goes to the gym 7 days a week. He says its not how much, but how many lifts in a row you do. He wanted me to add he does 250lbs 25 times in a row. Men are such children at times!

 

I Know many have referred to "Chester" but I think many here are too young to know Hustler's "Chester the Molester"

 

Why does everyone have a bottle of sea salt in their kitchen? I do, (I recognize the canister ) but I thought I was a freak.

 

Sam says that maybe his visions hold the answer how to "Beat the Darkness". I maybe going back to my Lucifer is the answer theory!

 

Lastly, I love Doug (Lonnie)! He may be simple, but he's one of those honest, down to earth "what you see is what you get" guys. Far and few between and well worth giving a second look. Donna could do a hell of a lot worse!