Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[catcory]

I remember that and I always thought she was so beautiful.

[LeeMoon]

This video popped up on Tumblr. It was made a couple of years ago in response to the fandom nonsense surrounding the show Sleepy Hollow - which, as far as I'm concerned, fell on its own sword and which I will no longer watch. However everything he says applies to TWD and specifically Michonne. I've already made these arguments and was dismissed and disrespected by the usual suspects - people who will never, ever admit to either being outright racist or seeing that their viewpoint may have been formed by systemic racism. These people will never see my point as valid because they consider the source. I thought this was interesting because this comes from a different source.

At any rate, long live Richonne. Gimple made history and broke through a glass ceiling. I will always love him for that in spite of shitty cliffhangers.

This is a subject that comes up often with students on campus these days, so I'm going to respond to this guy's video and why his approach might not be the best, even if I know this subject rarely ends well...

 

I could make a pretty good case about Jessie haters having racists misogynistic views and so all people who hate Jessie hate her because they hate white women.

 

Is it a true conclusion? to some, yes. To some, no. The same can be said about this guy's extreme view of the evil white fangirls hating on black women because they are white. Is it a true conclusion? to some, yes. To some, no.

 

What about fangirls hating Denise because she talked to Daryl? I could make a case about those fangirls hating overweight people, and that's why they hated Denise. It was a thin people coalition resulting from their thinness privilege.

 

What if a black fangirl doesn't like Michoone and Rick together? is she a racist? is she not a racist because she's not white and so her opinion is to be evaluated differently? where do you stop judging people based on race and start looking at them as individuals? does her different opinion dismisses that of people supporting the couple or is it just a different opinion?

 

Racism exists but this doesn't mean all different views are racists if you don't agree with them. Having a disagreement doesn't mean one view is dismissed just because someone disagrees. This is the logic behind the stupid "safe places" where no disagreement can ever be expressed and every idea is labeled according to skin color/religion/sex. That guy represents this extreme view which is regressive to liberalism.

[SevenStars]

Racism exists but this doesn't mean all different views are racists if you don't agree with them. Having a disagreement doesn't mean one view is dismissed just because someone disagrees. This is the logic behind the stupid "safe places" where no disagreement can ever be expressed and every idea is labeled according to skin color/religion/sex. That guy represents this extreme view which is regressive to liberalism.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you. Before I entered different fandoms, that had different woc or poc regular characters in them, I would have agreed with you. Because I would have saw it as just people having different views on things and nothing more. I wouldn't really have seen it as having much to do with racism/sexism.

But after being in different fandoms, for different genres, and encountering the same arguments,the same statements, and the overall views, I can't agree with this. The pattern that I keep seeing makes me unable to act like this doesn't have anything to do with unconscious and conscious racism. The predictable statements and arguments make me unable to act like there is not something behind it.

Also, I disagree with you about "safe places" some people feel the need for that sometimes. Just like in real life, some people are in need of a place just to vent,and nothing more.

Edited April 12, 2016 by SevenStars

[Timetoread]

This is a subject that comes up often with students on campus these days, so I'm going to respond to this guy's video and why his approach might not be the best, even if I know this subject rarely ends well...

 

I could make a pretty good case about Jessie haters having racists misogynistic views and so all people who hate Jessie hate her because they hate white women.

 

Is it a true conclusion? to some, yes. To some, no. The same can be said about this guy's extreme view of the evil white fangirls hating on black women because they are white. Is it a true conclusion? to some, yes. To some, no.

 

What about fangirls hating Denise because she talked to Daryl? I could make a case about those fangirls hating overweight people, and that's why they hated Denise. It was a thin people coalition resulting from their thinness privilege.

 

What if a black fangirl doesn't like Michoone and Rick together? is she a racist? is she not a racist because she's not white and so her opinion is to be evaluated differently? where do you stop judging people based on race and start looking at them as individuals? does her different opinion dismisses that of people supporting the couple or is it just a different opinion?

 

Racism exists but this doesn't mean all different views are racists if you don't agree with them. Having a disagreement doesn't mean one view is dismissed just because someone disagrees. This is the logic behind the stupid "safe places" where no disagreement can ever be expressed and every idea is labeled according to skin color/religion/sex. That guy represents this extreme view which is regressive to liberalism.

 

Your whole post just proves the point.  This is yet ANOTHER example of what I refer to as "the new racism".  Deny existence, accuse the accuser, and excuse the perpetrator.  Dismiss the issue in its entirety so that it can continue unabated indefinitely.  So your point is that because CONCEIVABLY somebody could feel something (that frankly there are no metrics even indicating the existence of - such as, Jessie was hated en masse because she was a white woman) that constitutes an injustice toward another group, that claims of racism are therefore unfounded?  And racist speech and actions (referring to Michonne as a monkey, for instance) is just harmless "disagreement"?  So basically your assertation is that black people are lying about racial experiences - because being on the receiving end of racism is just so much fun, let's all lie about it!  And your take away from the whole discussion is that he is being MEAN to white girls. 

 

Man whatever - some things never change.  Blocked.

 

The finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist.  - Charles Baudelaire

aka, the New Racism

Edited April 12, 2016 by Timetoread

[DearEvette]

That exchange really bothered me. Daryl's explaining what happened to Beth: "She was just GONE." Rick asks nothing else, I assume because he thought she got eaten, but I was waiting for Daryl to say something about the black car with the cross on the window - if only to warn the others about being kidnapped by such a car -  and he never uttered a peep about it. I know Daryl speaks as though words are a dollar each and he's a miser, but that annoyed the hell out of me.

 

I don't think this bothered me as much.  I think round that point they had to have become pretty numb to death a bit.  it was post-Prison pre-Alexandria which was pretty demoralizing for them all.  Hershel was dead, they had lost pretty much all of their red-shirts, Everyone else was scattered so he had no idea who else was still alive. As far as Rick knew Judith was dead, He had just bitten out a guy's jugular in a rabid fight to the death.  Really they were all practically feral.  I honestly think at that point Rick simply had nothing to give as far as reacting to Beth's possible death.   

[mightysparrow]

Do they think they're ground-breaking? AMC, which veotes "bad words" and makes Rick says "SCREWING with the wrong people", and Abe say things like "Mother dick" and "mixing Bisquick". Okay, I guess none of them ever saw or heard of the 1960's episode of the original Star Trek, titled "Plato's Stepchildren."  And here I was under the mistaken impression that this was a show for adults.

 

What a mother-dicking load of bullcaca.

 

I agree 100%.  Personally, I don't see anything 'progressive' about Richonne.  Black woman/White man relationships on TV are popping up all over TV, it's practically trendy.  The thing that bothers me the most is that the Black woman is always a superwoman and the White man is usually a scumbag.  Apologists for these relationships claim that underneath all the scumbaggery the White guy in question is really a great guy, but I don't buy it.  I had to stop watching 'Scandal' because it literally made me sick to watch Olivia play Sally Hemings for a piece of shit like Fitz.  There's a new show on now (don't know the name) with a Black woman/White man relationship that is all over social media featuring a nice, well-educated Black woman and an illiterate redneck.  According to the fangirls this is the latest 'progressive' relationship.

 

The thing that hurts me the most is the way any available Black men are viewed by fans of these couples.  I couldn't believe the way Black fangirls spoke about the Black man who was in love with Olivia (can't remember his name).  He was called every name in the book including 'ugly' even though the brother was FINE.  According to these fangirls putting Olivia with this character would amount to a betrayal of Dr. King's dream and shove Black people in the back of the bus. These fans preferred that Olivia be with a married man who treated her like a whore.  Progress?

 

I don't think there's anything progressive about a White man being attracted to a strong, intelligent, drop-dead gorgeous Black woman.  It's just proof he has eyes and a brain in his head.  From my personal experience, White men have never hesitated to pursue a Black woman.

 

In my opinion, progress would be seeing a Black woman and Black man facing the ZA together.  We've only had one very brief example of that with Sasha and Bob and I loved every second of it.  Black love in the ZA seems to be few and far between.  Maybe it's because the lifespan of a Black man on TWD is so short.

 

I'm not a comic book reader but I know ComicMichonne was very sexually active, exclusively with Black men.  Some people seem to view TVMichonne as a step-up, as if the TV character has refined her taste in men.  That attitude pisses me off.  I have no problem with a woman who likes sex and I have absolutely no problem with a Black woman who likes having sex with Black men. 

 

I don't have a problem with interracial relationships; I've been in several myself.  And I've shipped Michonne with White men.  But I don't think I'm ever going to stop believing that Michonne could do much better than the violent psycho asshole she's with now, no matter how beautifully @Timetoread writes about their relationship.

 

Edited to add:  I shipped Uhura and Sulu.  What did I know?  I thought they were gorgeous together!

Edited April 13, 2016 by mightysparrow

[mightysparrow]

Your whole post just proves the point.  This is yet ANOTHER example of what I refer to as "the new racism".  Deny existence, accuse the accuser, and excuse the perpetrator.  Dismiss the issue in its entirety so that it can continue unabated indefinitely.  So your point is that because CONCEIVABLY somebody could feel something (that frankly there are no metrics even indicating the existence of - such as, Jessie was hated en masse because she was a white woman) that constitutes an injustice toward another group, that claims of racism are therefore unfounded?  And racist speech and actions (referring to Michonne as a monkey, for instance) is just harmless "disagreement"?  So basically your assertation is that black people are lying about racial experiences - because being on the receiving end of racism is just so much fun, let's all lie about it!  And your take away from the whole discussion is that he is being MEAN to white girls. 

 

Man whatever - some things never change.  Blocked.

 

The finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist.  - Charles Baudelaire

aka, the New Racism

 

It's comments like this that making me ship myself with you, @Timetoread!

[Timetoread]

I agree 100%.  Personally, I don't see anything 'progressive' about Richonne.  Black woman/White man relationships on TV are popping up all over TV, it's practically trendy.  The thing that bothers me the most is that the Black woman is always a superwoman and the White man is usually a scumbag.  Apologists for these relationships claim that underneath all the scumbaggery the White guy in question is really a great guy, but I don't buy it.  I had to stop watching 'Scandal' because it literally made me sick to watch Olivia play Sally Hemings for a piece of shit like Fitz.  There's a new show on now (don't know the name) with a Black woman/White man relationship that is all over social media featuring a nice, well-educated Black woman and an illiterate redneck.  According to the fangirls this is the latest 'progressive' relationship.

 

The thing that hurts me the most is the way any available Black men are viewed by fans of these couples.  I couldn't believe the way Black fangirls spoke about the Black man who was in love with Olivia (can't remember his name).  He was called every name in the book including 'ugly' even though the brother was FINE.  According to these fangirls putting Olivia with this character would amount to a betrayal of Dr. King's dream and shove Black people in the back of the bus. These fans preferred that Olivia be with a married man who treated her like a whore.  Progress?

 

I don't think there's anything progressive about a White man being attracted to a strong, intelligent, drop-dead gorgeous Black woman.  It's just proof he has eyes and a brain in his head.  From my personal experience, White men have never hesitated to pursue a Black woman.

 

In my opinion, progress would be seeing a Black woman and Black man facing the ZA together.  We've only had one very brief example of that with Sasha and Bob and I loved every second of it.  Black love in the ZA seems to be few and far between.  Maybe it's because the lifespan of a Black man on TWD is so short.

 

I'm not a comic book reader but I know ComicMichonne was very sexually active, exclusively with Black men.  Some people seem to view TVMichonne as a step-up, as if the TV character has refined her taste in men.  That attitude pisses me off.  I have no problem with a woman who likes sex and I have absolutely no problem with a Black woman who likes having sex with Black men. 

 

I don't have a problem with interracial relationships; I've been in several myself.  And I've shipped Michonne with White men.  But I don't think I'm ever going to stop believing that Michonne could do much better than the violent psycho asshole she's with now, no matter how beautifully @Timetoread writes about their relationship.

 

Edited to add:  I shipped Uhura and Sulu.  What did I know?  I thought they were gorgeous together!

 

You are hard on my man Rick!  LOL!  He can definitely be a handfull sometimes but I really feel that he has a good heart and that he will be good to Michonne - which is all I ask of any man who is with her.   She could do better but she could also do worse.  If she is happy, so am I.

 

I do agree with you that we need to watch that our advocacy doesn't spill into the idea that there is something wrong with black on black love, or that white on white love equals racism. Like you I loved Bob and Sasha and really need some convincing on Abe and Sasha.  The only reason I can stomach Fitz and Olivia is because they are both so odious that I feel that they deserve each other. 

 

What is progressive, IMO, is not the racial makeup of any given couple but the portrayal of mature love based on compatibility and mutual respect as opposed to CW love that amounts to "two hot people hook up."

 

PS:  I didn't ever ship it but I kind of love the Spock/Uhura pairing in the new Star Treks.  There is something very hot about how she, a linguist, trained in understanding people of all cultures, is with the vulcan Spock.  The thing with Vulcans is that they don't show what they feel, but they do feel it.  I'm sure, in private moments she reads him loud and clear because the body doesn't lie.

 

It's comments like this that making me ship myself with you, @Timetoread!

 

You're killing me!  LOL!

Edited April 13, 2016 by Timetoread

[catcory]

Maybe I am being to naïve about Rick and Michonne, but IMO, when they see each other they see each other as a man and a woman, nothing more, nothing less. Michonne has seen Rick at his absolute worst, she has seen him rip a man's throat out with his teeth, she has seen him gut a man, she has seen him whack Garath to death, she has seen him be a raving lunatic in front of the people of ASZ and so much more. And Rick has seen Michonne kill people and beat that Termite lady to death in the church. And yet through all of this, they saw the person behind all of these acts, they saw each other. Michonne saw a man who will do anything to protect his children and the people he loves, the people he considers family. Rick has seen a kind, caring woman who loves not only his children but all the people that she considers family. This is what they see in each other. There is a tenderness they have for each other.

I never saw the show when it first started, I decided to watch it during season 5B but before that I watched the marathon that AMC had and I always noticed the special bond they had for each other and I hoped at that time they would find each other. And when they did I was so happy for them. It is difficult to find that special love out here in the real world, so imagine finding that love in the ZA.

When they look at each other, they see the person they fell in love with and call me silly but that is a beautiful thing.

[AwesomO4000]

I agree 100%.  Personally, I don't see anything 'progressive' about Richonne.  Black woman/White man relationships on TV are popping up all over TV, it's practically trendy.  The thing that bothers me the most is that the Black woman is always a superwoman and the White man is usually a scumbag.  Apologists for these relationships claim that underneath all the scumbaggery the White guy in question is really a great guy, but I don't buy it.  I had to stop watching 'Scandal' because it literally made me sick to watch Olivia play Sally Hemings for a piece of shit like Fitz.  There's a new show on now (don't know the name) with a Black woman/White man relationship that is all over social media featuring a nice, well-educated Black woman and an illiterate redneck.  According to the fangirls this is the latest 'progressive' relationship.

 

This is disappointing to hear. I don't watch either of the shows you are talking about, so I wasn't aware that this was a new thing. It doesn't sound like progress to me either.

 

One of my favorite television couples of all time is Zoe / Wash from Firefly. Yes, she is the physical badass of the couple, but, in my opinion anyway, Wash is a good guy who has other talents, is fairly brave on his own, and who is deeply in love with his wife and is confident enough in his own self-worth and manhood to be comfortable with the fact that Zoe is a physically stronger fighter than he is. He even finds it sexy. I loved Wash *sniff,* and I loved Wash and Zoe together. I suppose the argument could be made that Zoe should've been paired with another badass like Mal, but I liked them as friends and comrades in arms myself. And as much as I love Jayne, I just can't imagine the train wreck a Zoe / Jayne pairing would have been. Hee.

 

That said, I like Rick / Michonne as a couple. But then again, my opinion might be a little suspect considering that Carl is my favorite character (and it's not in a tween crush way as I am old enough to be his mother and then some). Actually my favorite relationship on the show is the Carl / Michonne friendship* followed by the Daryl / Carol friendship.

 

* "After" is one of my favorite episodes, and I love the last line from Rick to Carl when he sees Michonne at the door. "It's for you."

[catcory]

I tend to watch my favorite TWD episodes on Netflix and I watched "After" this morning while getting ready for work. I will admit that I am always brought to tears when Michonne finds Rick and Carl. I also love the episode that I call the companion episode where she tells Carl about Andre Anthony, and he is just so sweet in telling her that her secret is safe with him. Loving Carl was easy for Michonne, he fills the void she has had in her heart since losing Andre. And then of course realizing that she loves Rick.

[SimoneS]

I agree 100%.  Personally, I don't see anything 'progressive' about Richonne.  Black woman/White man relationships on TV are popping up all over TV, it's practically trendy.  The thing that bothers me the most is that the Black woman is always a superwoman and the White man is usually a scumbag.  Apologists for these relationships claim that underneath all the scumbaggery the White guy in question is really a great guy, but I don't buy it.  I had to stop watching 'Scandal' because it literally made me sick to watch Olivia play Sally Hemings for a piece of shit like Fitz.  There's a new show on now (don't know the name) with a Black woman/White man relationship that is all over social media featuring a nice, well-educated Black woman and an illiterate redneck.  According to the fangirls this is the latest 'progressive' relationship.

 

The thing that hurts me the most is the way any available Black men are viewed by fans of these couples.  I couldn't believe the way Black fangirls spoke about the Black man who was in love with Olivia (can't remember his name).  He was called every name in the book including 'ugly' even though the brother was FINE.  According to these fangirls putting Olivia with this character would amount to a betrayal of Dr. King's dream and shove Black people in the back of the bus. These fans preferred that Olivia be with a married man who treated her like a whore.  Progress?

 

I don't think there's anything progressive about a White man being attracted to a strong, intelligent, drop-dead gorgeous Black woman.  It's just proof he has eyes and a brain in his head.  From my personal experience, White men have never hesitated to pursue a Black woman.

 

In my opinion, progress would be seeing a Black woman and Black man facing the ZA together.  We've only had one very brief example of that with Sasha and Bob and I loved every second of it.  Black love in the ZA seems to be few and far between.  Maybe it's because the lifespan of a Black man on TWD is so short.

 

I'm not a comic book reader but I know ComicMichonne was very sexually active, exclusively with Black men.  Some people seem to view TVMichonne as a step-up, as if the TV character has refined her taste in men.  That attitude pisses me off.  I have no problem with a woman who likes sex and I have absolutely no problem with a Black woman who likes having sex with Black men. 

 

I don't have a problem with interracial relationships; I've been in several myself.  And I've shipped Michonne with White men.  But I don't think I'm ever going to stop believing that Michonne could do much better than the violent psycho asshole she's with now, no matter how beautifully @Timetoread writes about their relationship.

 

Edited to add:  I shipped Uhura and Sulu.  What did I know?  I thought they were gorgeous together!

 

I think that you are generalizing here about the portrayal of interracial couples on tv. While there are now a few high profile interracial couples on tv, Rick and Michonne being the highest profile, there are not many of these couples as a whole. Empire is the second highest rated scripted show on tv and its leading characters and main couples are black (exception of Rhonda, of course), then Dre and Bow on Black-ish, Annalise and Nate on How to Get Away with Murder, etc.

 

I do think that these high profile interracial couples are progressive because people of color have never considered viable love interests for leading characters who are usually white. It doesn't mean that racism is going away, but it does mean that actors of color are finally getting roles and stories that they would never be considered for in the past  and these roles are no longer only cast with black women who have light skin. Viola Davis has talked about how dark skin black women have been stereotyped and de-sexualized in Hollywood (http://thegrio.com/2015/06/26/viola-davis-hollywood-stereotypes-paper-bag-test/). It is progress that she and Danai are finally being considered for and getting the leading roles because they are extremely talented and deserve them. I still see a lot of shows where there are no people of color at all or they have supporting and marginalized roles so there is still a lot more progress to be made.

 

Also, while I do not watch every show on tv, I definitely do not see the white guys in these few interracial couples as being "scumbags." Yes, Fitz on Scandal is scummy as hell, but Olivia is worse in many ways. Scandal is full of horrible characters and is certainly not representative of interracial couples or any couple on tv except maybe Frank and Claire Underwood on House of Cards and they are both white. I don't think that Barry Allen, the Flash, who is in love with Iris is a scumbag or that Kara, Supergirl who is in love with Jimmy Olsen is a scumbag or D'avin, Killjoys, who is in love with Dutch is a scumbag, etc. Btw, Tessa Thompson just got the role of Thor's love interest in the upcoming third movie and I am confident that everyone, even you, thinks that he is a really good guy for an alien: http://deadline.com/2016/04/tessa-thompson-joins-the-marvel-universe-thor-ragnarok-1201735551/   We will have to see who is cast as the love interest for Black Panther in the upcoming movie.

 

As for the fangirls you are referring to, whoever they are and whatever they think, they do not represent every perspective on this topic any more than segments of TWD fandom represent the views of the audience as a whole. 

 

Regarding Rick, you have clearly a view of him that I and some others simply do not share. I love Rick and Michonne individually and as a couple. I will never get the whole "doing better" or "not worthy" thing. Rick and Michonne see each other clearly and still love each other deeply. I think that they make a fierce power couple for TWD and I look forward to what happens next.

Edited April 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[Pete Martell]

Do they think they're ground-breaking? AMC, which veotes "bad words" and makes Rick says "SCREWING with the wrong people", and Abe say things like "Mother dick" and "mixing Bisquick". Okay, I guess none of them ever saw or heard of the 1960's episode of the original Star Trek, titled "Plato's Stepchildren."  And here I was under the mistaken impression that this was a show for adults.

 

What a mother-dicking load of bullcaca.

 

I saw that episode, and IIRC, Kirk and Uhura were forced to kiss each other, in a very uncomfortable scene. If I ever saw anything progressive on that front on TOS it would be that scene early in the series where Uhura sang and it was presented as sexy and playful in a way that wasn't demeaning. I also remember a bit of flirtation with Spock and Uhura.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

A few years ago I would have agreed with you. Before I entered different fandoms, that had different woc or poc regular characters in them, I would have agreed with you. Because I would have saw it as just people having different views on things and nothing more. I wouldn't really have seen it as having much to do with racism/sexism.

But after being in different fandoms, for different genres, and encountering the same arguments,the same statements, and the overall views, I can't agree with this. The pattern that I keep seeing makes me unable to act like this doesn't have anything to do with unconscious and conscious racism. The predictable statements and arguments make me unable to act like there is not something behind it.

 

I've seen three different fandoms where there were always reasons not to pair the black woman, even if she was the lead female, with the white male lead, even if he was being paired on the show or in fandom with any and every other woman (most of whom aren't WOC), even if he was intended to be her love interest. That doesn't always have to mean something. It isn't always racist. But sometimes...it does feel like a pattern to me.

 

It bothered me with Richonne last season not because I had to see them together (by the time I quit watching last season I didn't even want Michonne anywhere near him), but because I was baffled by the ardent refusal to admit there was at least ambiguity and undertones in the writing and performance choices. I began to feel like I had just made up a show in my own head since late season 3, and it just got even more surreal when I was told that if I didn't support Jessie and/or Jessie/Rick, I was a misogynist. I mean, if someone tells me they don't like Rick/Michonne, I don't think they must be a racist. It's just surely we can admit there was some groundwork, a hell of a lot more than there ever was with a woman who was called "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" in the press 4 seconds after her first episode?

Edited April 14, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I agree 100%.  Personally, I don't see anything 'progressive' about Richonne.  Black woman/White man relationships on TV are popping up all over TV, it's practically trendy.  The thing that bothers me the most is that the Black woman is always a superwoman and the White man is usually a scumbag.  Apologists for these relationships claim that underneath all the scumbaggery the White guy in question is really a great guy, but I don't buy it.  I had to stop watching 'Scandal' because it literally made me sick to watch Olivia play Sally Hemings for a piece of shit like Fitz.  There's a new show on now (don't know the name) with a Black woman/White man relationship that is all over social media featuring a nice, well-educated Black woman and an illiterate redneck.  According to the fangirls this is the latest 'progressive' relationship.

 

I don't think it's progressive for a black woman to be with a white man, and I don't think a black woman should have to be with a white man to somehow have merit as a character, so I hesitate to call Richonne "progressive." If I'd call it anything I'd call it subversive for this type of show, where a character like Michonne would often be lucky to get a C-level relationship with a minor character, or in the case of Sleepy Hollow, nearly paired with her sister's douchebag ex-boyfriend.

 

I remember the fans who insisted that unless Michonne were raped by The Governor, she would not be humanized or sympathetic in the minds of the audience. So to go from that low point, that disgusting of an idea of how a man should treat her, to have her as an equal partner, as a friend and lover, to the show's leading man -  I do think it's unusual, and while I'm not going to give the show an award for it, I truly don't believe most shows would have broken out of their safe bubble and would have been content to keep Michonne as the chaste mother figure. 

[Timetoread]

Agreed.  And really the truth is not that everybody is racist, it is that if you are not a minority you don't really SEE how racism colors representation.  Not unless you are uncommonly astute or somebody points it out to you.  I'm sure that the average white person has not quantified and qualified how black women specifically, are portrayed in the media.  Most whites who aren't card carrying bigots will notice, for instance, if a show lacks any black or minority characters (like Friends and Seinfeld).  Although that isn't a real problem either unless it is shown that the exclusion was in the intentional service of racism.  Most WILL indeed speak out and oppose this kind of thing.  I honestly believe that most people don't WANT to be racist. 

 

Where I find we lose many is on the short game - the nuances and inferences of systemic racism.  Things like, a show will have some black characters and is therefore diverse, but that these characters are not whole people and they only exist to help out or further the white protagonist.  Or a rom com wiill have a beautiful white woman who is "friends" with an equally beautiful black woman, but it is understood that the black girl is there as a shoulder to cry on and to be sassy comic relief.  The white woman will get her man in the end, but there is no man for the friend.  If a black woman is shown to be sexualized at all she is either a) oversexed or a prostitute, b)fat and ugly and throws herself at any man with a pulse (the joke being that she isn't worthy of love but her agressive nature at least gets her negative attention) (this is even funnier when her character is played by a man - looking at you Eddie Murphy and Martin Lawrence, c) a love interest for a black man but to get this honor she is beauty-queen beautiful, often biracial with white features, so that she basically looks like a white woman colored brown (think Halle Berry).  Casual observers may not catch what is happening here.  They don't understand the anger that results.  Not because it is happening on one show or one movie but because it happens on ALL OF THEM.  Indeed even here the discussion examples are three shows currently on the air, one helmed by a black woman intent on using her platform to go against the norm, and one episode of a sci fi show that aired 50 years ago.

 

Now I am thrilled to see Michonne - a very dark woman with ethnic hair, African facial features, and fighting skills be portayed as something other than an untouchable savage.  With her backstory intact, she is educated, intelligent, caring, feminine and sexual.  It really is amazing and I give a lot of credit to both Gimple AND Andrew Lincoln - who filmed a race piece earlier in his career with a black woman - for unendingly championing this agenda.  My only prayer is that the show continues to handle this relationship right, as a real relationship between nonperfect humans, so that people identify with it, rather than dismiss it as science fiction.  I hope that it is also shown to be beautiful and compelling so that showrunners can begin to lose their fear of it - especially when they luck upon actors who have strong chemistry with each other.  TWD did it right.  Sleepy Hollow did not.  On this, I remain very hopeful.

 

Where my anger boils over, however, is when people who are not minorites and have no earthly clue what it is like to be one in this country have the nerve to discount and dismiss what I am saying because it is not true for them or because they don't want to talk about the subject matter at all.  Some are just outright racists but don't know that they are - basically they are fine with the existence of other races and wish them well - and even enjoy the colorfulness that other races bring to the table (music, food, entertainment, sexual stereotype), but they don't feel that these people are their equals and that their wants and needs should be on par with their own.  They think minorities should be satisfied with what society allows them and objection signifies ungratefulness.  Racist summation being: blacks need not get uppity.  Black women should not expect men to see them as beautiful.  Useful? Yes.  Desirable? No.  To me this form of racism proposes a general superiority (privilege) that not only am I less than they are but that they are in the right to dictate my observations, and my assessments require permission.  It's therefore not racism unless they declare it to be so.  If you say otherwise, then YOU are the problem.  YOU are bringing up race.  YOU are twisting things.  The problem is YOU - so says the woman who has never in her life experienced this problem. 

 

A phenomenon I am noticing of late is that of white parents who have adopted children of color.  These people love/adore these children as much as any parent.  But then they SEE it - how people look at their children differently, have different expectations of them.  They SEE it and they HATE it!   My friend and I joked that the loudest voice in civil rights today isn't Al Sharpton, it is Brad Pitt.  Every since Brad acquired himself a black daughter he has worked tirelessly to see that her heart is never broken by a society who considers her to be less than her counterparts or even her own siblings.  He has two beautiful blonde biological daughters but he uses his major interviews to brag on his black daughter.  He executive produces and/or stars in movies about slavery and civil rights.  Looking with the eyes of love, he wants to eradicate hate.  But that's all ANY of us want.  We don't want our children to think that a whole world doesn't love them or that they are undeserving of anything because of how much melanin is in their skins.  Our hearts break even for ourselves to endure it.  To know how much love and hope our parents put into us but to battle daily with elements of society - elements with considerable power and influence - that would not see us succeed.  It's time now for this stuff to go the way of the dinosaur.  My grandparents dealt with slavery.  My parents dealt with segregation and the civil rights movement.  THIS is the fight of my generation - stopping those who seek to marginalize and undermine  - especially in the media - because doing so stalls REAL progress.  It is all the same beast just wearing different clothes.  Our agenda is to unclothe it so that it is naked in front of everybody.  Only then can we remove its power.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Timetoread

[HalcyonDays]

I remember the fans who insisted that unless Michonne were raped by The Governor, she would not be humanized or sympathetic in the minds of the audience.

 

The hell? Seriously? That is some sick thinking, I tell you. Wow...just wow.

 

Well, not gonna post an essay, but will say that I love Rick and Michonne being together. That's all. ;')

[SimoneS]

It bothered me with Richonne last season not because I had to see them together (by the time I quit watching last season I didn't even want Michonne anywhere near him), but because I was baffled by the ardent refusal to admit there was at least ambiguity and undertones in the writing and performance choices. I began to feel like I had just made up a show in my own head since late season 3, and it just got even more surreal when I was told that if I didn't support Jessie and/or Jessie/Rick, I was a misogynist. I mean, if someone tells me they don't like Rick/Michonne, I don't think they must be a racist. It's just surely we can admit there was some groundwork, a hell of a lot more than there ever was with a woman who was called "the new Mrs. Rick Grimes" in the press 4 seconds after her first episode?

 

I remember the fans who insisted that unless Michonne were raped by The Governor, she would not be humanized or sympathetic in the minds of the audience. So to go from that low point, that disgusting of an idea of how a man should treat her, to have her as an equal partner, as a friend and lover, to the show's leading man -  I do think it's unusual, and while I'm not going to give the show an award for it, I truly don't believe most shows would have broken out of their safe bubble and would have been content to keep Michonne as the chaste mother figure. 

 

I don't understand how the views of a minority of fans can be given such weight or have so much sway over you and others. So what if these fans didn't see the groundwork being laid for Michonne or had this wacky view that she should be raped by Phillip to become sympathetic? Every fandom is full of diverse opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with show's direction. 

 

You are erroneously conflating fan opinions with the show's characterization of Michonne. She was never at a low point on the show, never, not even when she was emotionally shut down. Michonne is more than Rick's best friend/confidante and Carl and Judith's surrogate mother. Everyone in group respects her and listens to her opinions. I would argue she is the co-leader with Rick. It might not be role that she necessarily wants, but she steps up when she sees things going awry usually because Rick is spiraling. Michonne is the one who made the decision that they were going with Aaron not Rick who was emotionally paralyzed. Yes, one can argue that she should have more interactions with other characters, but I think that thanks to Danai's portrayal and strong writing, Michonne has become a fully realized character on the tv show unlike the caricature she is in the comics. Gimple has his own vision for the show that isn't subjected to the whims of a vocal minority of Internet fans and Kirkman must be on board or Gimple would have been out long ago. 

 

As for Rick and Michonne, I saw the chemistry and connection between them since season three. There were so many scenes that made me comment on the show threads that they would be hot together and the perfect Zombie Apocalypse couple. However, I never thought that AMC or TWD was progressive enough to actually have the romance occur. I was fine with the Rick/Jessie romance. Why not? He might as well get laid. The whole Jessie thing was odd, but it is over. Richonne has happened and I think that was the right decision for their characters and the show. Kudos to Gimple et al. I read this WSJ interview with Danai who responded to the question, "So Rick and Michonne. How did this happen?"

 

There’s so much that’s been built into these two’s intimacy over the past four seasons that it really felt like the most natural progression for them to end up where they ended up. To me, it’s like, “You can’t tell how it ended up that way? You really didn’t see it coming? Really?”

 

I am going to give this same response to people who say that their relationship came out of nowhere. Ha.

Edited April 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[Pete Martell]

I don't understand how the views of a minority of fans can be given such weight or have so much sway over you and others. So what if these fans didn't see the groundwork being laid for Michonne or had this wacky view that she should be raped by Phillip to become sympathetic? Every fandom is full of diverse opinions that have absolutely nothing to do with show's direction. 

 

If people are sure a female character won't be sympathetic to viewers unless she's raped, then it's going to hold some sway for me, because I'd rarely seen anything like it. At that point, Michonne was heavily criticized for rarely speaking, and for being guarded, and then when it came time for the scenes where she fought with The Governor, there was an idea from some fans that this was unprovoked (which I didn't agree with, as he was obviously a bad person who'd left her for dead, and what she did to Penny was humane, not an attack against him). So all of this led to the idea from some quarters that The Governor should have raped her, as he did in the comics, to make her fight with The Governor more "earned" or to show a more vulnerable side to her because people didn't like her being guarded or silent. And it made me pause, because I did wonder, what has she done or said that would make someone think she has to be raped to be a likeable character? To me, the criticisms of Michonne were always a bit overblown - I never thought she was THAT sullen or hard (and even if she had been that doesn't warrant a rape storyline). Yet to many, she was. So that's what I mean when I say that I'm glad the show had enough trust in her to not take an easy out and instead let her slowly develop.

 

The reason the idea of no groundwork bothers me is because there was, in comparison, a much quicker path to believing Jessie and Rick - in the press, on Talking Dead, with some fans here and elsewhere, etc. 3 seasons of interaction and a growing bond were seen as meaningless compared to Rick making crazy eyes at a near-stranger at a dinner party. And when fans like me questioned this relationship and questioned the incredibly distasteful way the story was told with the poor use of domestic violence, the response was that we were misogynist, or we were biased because of Richonne, etc. 

 

I'm glad that ultimately the show went with the groundwork they laid, and I'd like to forget the idea that there was none, but then I remember things like that awful reviewer for TV Guide repeatedly insisting the pairing had no buildup, and I wonder if that will ultimately be some type of conventional wisdom on the pairing. I hope not. For me the writing wasn't perfect, but the buildup was definitely there, and I hope they just keep building on it now that they're canon.

[catcory]

I love that response from Danai, it is just so perfect.

When Michonne said they were going to Alexandria and she basically asked if someone had an objection they better speak up or something to that effect. Everyone was silent. And then Rick said they were going. IMO this made her an equal partner to Rick.

I know what I saw when I saw Rick and Michonne, from that first moment their eyes met at the fence. That was the first of many moments I saw and have seen between.

Since someone brought up the Governor it reminded me of something, when Merle took Michonne there is a scene where Rick has this blue cord and wrapped it around his wrist, what was that about?

Edited April 15, 2016 by catcory

[FilmPimp]

Since someone brought up the Governor it reminded me of something, when Merle took Michonne there is a scene where Rick has this blue cord and wrapped it around his wrist, what was that about?

Rick was looking for something to bind Michonne's hands with, but changed his mind when he saw Lori's ghost staring down at him.

[kia112]

Rick was looking for something to bind Michonne's hands with, but changed his mind when he saw Lori's ghost staring down at him.

Yes, and he was specifically looking for a wire because that's what Merle suggested. He cautioned that he couldn't use something that she could chew her way through, like a rope. When you're passing along knowledge like that, that's when you know your life has taken a wrong turn.

[SimoneS]

Yes, Rick changed his mind about giving Michonne to Phillip in exchange for peace, but I never thought he was going to go through with it anyway. Even Merle knew that Rick wouldn't which is why he took Michonne on his own. I wasn't surprised that Daryl was going along with it despite his misgivings, but I was surprised that Hershel was. but he changed his mind also. I thought it was a good test for Rick and Hershel. They almost made a horrible decision, but pulled back before it was too late. Merle got a little redemption when he balked at re-entering the darkness and let Michonne go.

Edited April 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[jsbt]

There are always going to be stupid people with opinions, and sometimes wrongheaded conventional wisdom sets in - that's the way of the world. But I don't think we have to automatically assume something is gaining traction when it isn't, or jump to the possibility that it will impact the show, even if it's on the talk show where much was made of Jessie when clearly the decision was long since made by the showrunners that she was dogmeat, probably from the jump.

 

In this particular instance TWD clearly doesn't give a shit what a minority thinks of the Rick/Michonne pairing, and from what I've seen the vast majority of the audience and critics have gone with it too. I expected a bigger racist/comic devotee backlash. But even if there had been one, I don't think TWD would have given a shit. They have their business to get to.

 

TWD has almost never actively fed starving fanbases other than Richonne, IMO - it's steadfastly refused to take a position on Daryl, the show's alleged 'sex symbol' in some circles and instead rendered him quasi-juvenile or asexual and kept him internal. And why? Because doing so does not service the stories they're telling. I deal with the text in front of me. If the audience reaction goes sideways and begins devouring or compromising a show then I react, and that definitely happens to shows out there, but I can't call the relationship automatically symbiotic and a constant going concern when it's demonstrably not. Every show is different, every case is different and I can't look at the viewing experience with two sets of eyes while still watching when a show has not given me reason to - I can't live in fear that TWD is suddenly going to become something it isn't. I can only take them on their own merits. How an audience engages with it is on that audience unless it becomes an external situation impacting the production, or a grievous creative error.

[SimoneS]

I'm glad that ultimately the show went with the groundwork they laid, and I'd like to forget the idea that there was none, but then I remember things like that awful reviewer for TV Guide repeatedly insisting the pairing had no buildup, and I wonder if that will ultimately be some type of conventional wisdom on the pairing. I hope not. For me the writing wasn't perfect, but the buildup was definitely there, and I hope they just keep building on it now that they're canon.

 

I strongly recommend you stay away from all these wacky fans, reviewers, and even TD since they influence your opinion more than the actual show. I think that you have to keep in mind that whole season has been outlined and all the scripts written before they start filming in May so while tweaks here and there might occur, there is no possibility of making major changes in the stories in response to the various fan bases. IMO, Yvette Nicole Brown is the only celeb TWD fan whose opinion should be given any weight. Not only because she watches, re-watches, and takes notes, but because she is in contact with Gimple, etc. so she has more insight from an insider's perspective than she lets on.

 

Also, you should actually watch the episodes instead of relying on others to interpret the show for you, a periodic re-watch is a must. You would be amazed at how you miss the first and second time around. When you hit Gimple's era, the show is pretty clear about the direction it is going and how the characters should be viewed as they undergo emotional trauma along their journey. They cannot show everything so they rely on the viewers to make certain logical leaps but overall there isn't a whole lot of mystery.

 

After reading Gimple's interviews over the last season, I think it is worth the time to read them if you want to get a sense of the show's direction. He is always vague, but he does give broad hints. Look what he says about Rick and Michonne to the Hollywood Reporter in Sept. 2015 about when they would have been filming or about to film, The Next World.

 

"They have a very intimate relationship, that’s the funny thing. People are like, 'Oh my God, what if they were together?' They’re really, really intimate. They have done things for each other that’s familial or deep, deep, deep friendship. But the way that they speak to each other — for example in [the season five finale] — represents how far these people have come with each other," Gimple says, stressing how their relationship has evolved since Michonne showed up holding a basket of powdered baby formula while she was covered in zombie guts. "The fact that they reached that bedroom in Alexandria when they had that conversation where Rick admitted that he had a gun and was going to give it to her. I think they have an incredibly intimate relationship right now. Where that goes, who knows? I think there’s something to be said about those two characters' journeys right now."

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-richonne-819519

Edited April 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[kia112]

Hmm. I think it's safe to assume that everyone here watches the show and they come to their own interpretation as well as a collaborative one. That, of course, is one of the reasons why we frequent this message board. Speaking personally, I don't think I let the opinions of others influence my opinion on the show, but I do think that the opinions of others about the show can reflect a larger world view. That's where I saw the conversation going. When I read Pete Martell's comments about "no groundwork," I saw it as asking the question "Why are people so eager to see something with Rick and Jessie after an hour of interaction, as opposed to seasons of close interaction with Michonne?" Not, "Oh, man. I hope the showrunners didn't watch that one Talking Dead tonight and get any ideas to rewrite and reshoot episodes that have been in the can for months."

Edited April 15, 2016 by kia112

[Pete Martell]

I strongly recommend you stay away from all these wacky fans, reviewers, and even TD since they influence your opinion more than the actual show. 

 

The discussion that started all this was about whether or not Richonne was progressive, and about the idea that a black woman being with a white man was anything to see as worth praising. And I said that while I don't think that alone is somehow worthy of a pat on the head, I appreciate the show taking the risk when they must have known of some of the attitudes in fandom. I mentioned those attitudes to back up my point about the show. Not because 4 seasons of material were erased for me because of fan comments.

 

I've repeatedly said that I feel the show laid groundwork for Rick and Michonne. I've never said, "I thought they did but then I saw all those wacky comments and now I know I was wrong." Last season, when the tone here got far away from my view of the show and the characters, I did leave here rather than let it influence my opinion of the show and characters. 

 

I'd imagine I have more trust in Gimple than many fans do at the moment. That doesn't mean I can really take what's said onscreen or even in interviews and see it as gospel. For instance, I'm never going to accept that the show chose to ignore Beth and Maggie's relationship for Beth's last year on the show and have Maggie rarely mention Beth or focus on whether Beth was alive or dead. I'm never going to not be annoyed at having to spend a year reading posts at various places that Maggie was an (insert slur here), that Maggie only cared about dick, that Maggie deserved to die, that they now hated Maggie. It upset me a great deal, and these comments were everywhere. You couldn't just ignore them. But I didn't let fans influence my opinion on that, even if the comments dismayed me. My annoyance came from the show itself.

 

Just as I can talk about fan comments on Richonne or Michonne without having my view distorted by them. Of course most fans never felt Michonne had to be raped by The Governor to humanize her. And of course fans who question the way Richonne was handled (the Jessie arc really marred some wonderful long-term buildup) don't have to be wrong. I just mention the more extreme views because often the most extreme voices are the ones that carry sway in fandom. 

 

That doesn't mean I don't get Richonne or the relationship. I've wanted more of their relationship since Rick was checking her out near the end of season 3. They hooked me and I always wanted more. And while I never thought the show would actually pull the trigger, I'm glad they did. That was the original motivation in what I was saying. I was trying to praise the show and, yes, Gimple as well. If you thought I ruined it by putting too much focus elsewhere, then I apologize.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pete Martell

[SimoneS]

If you thought I ruined it by putting too much focus elsewhere, then I apologize.

 

I never said that you ruined the show and certainly would never think that because no fan can do that, but you are the one who stated that you were influenced by the opinions of others with these extreme views and even you stopped watching the show. I was responding to those comments. I reread what your comments in earlier posts to make I didn't misunderstand what you wrote and that is exactly what you were saying. 

 

I think that jsbt above said what I was and am trying say more eloquently. Critiquing or being influenced by what the show is actually portraying on the screen is one thing, but there is no evidence that these minority of fans/reviewers/ talk show with differing views have any influence on TWD's direction or that the show is responding to their opinions. For example, when Alexandra Breckenridge made her second appearance on TD in November, she likely already had filmed Jessie's death scene. The show moves at its own breakneck pace and it turned out that the opinions of those fans who wanted Jessie paired with Rick were ultimately inconsequential.

Edited April 15, 2016 by SimoneS

[slade3]

I would also label Rick and Michonne's relationship as "subversive" in the TV world, and in Hollywood. I take subversive to mean an uprooting of a society's "norms" and I think that's what this is...for us, the viewers. Within the TWD world, I don't think anyone (except Merle in season 1) has the time to decide whether they're attracted to someone based on race or religion or economic status. In fact, if Merle had survived, I think he would have eventually dated outside his race if someone who wasn't white had shown any interest. And the way he was looking Rick over in that scene when Rick asks for his help to give Michonne to the governor? I think Merle would have taken Rick to bed if Rick had offered. 

 

(I do wish the show had clarified why Glenn and Abe seemed so surprised by Rick and Michonne. I would have thought everyone's attitude would have been more like Daryl's - nonexistent. Was Glenn surprised because Rick never said anything to him about liking Michonne? Was he surprised the way many people are surprised when they learn their parents or teachers actually have sex? And Abe, like everyone else, has been a witness to how close Rick and Michonne are, and his attraction to both Rosita and Sasha proves that he wouldn't blink an eye at an interracial couple. Don't get me wrong, I got a kick out of Glenn's and Abe's reaction, but the TV viewer in me wanted to know what the others thought about it and why they each reacted the way they did.)

 

Anyway, I've always been a fan of subversive couples on TV and I've always had my heart broken. Scandal is a good example. I think Tony Goldwyn and Kerry Washington have massive chemistry, but the way their "love" plays out on the show confuses and, sometimes, offends me. I stopped watching in the middle of season 3 because I just knew it wouldn't lead anywhere I wanted to go. Came back this season and think I'm done again. Spike and Buffy - another subversive couple that broke my heart. I avoid negative fan reactions to couples I'd like to see together, and I avoid reading anything that a writer, show runner or actor says about their show. Buffy and Sleepy Hollow are the reasons why I do that. 

 

I'm just starting to read some of the interviewes with TWD people because of the snippets I've read here. And I feel pretty good about Rick and Michonne staying together as a couple-in-love because of everything Scott Gimple has said about them, and because Andrew Lincoln and Danai Gurira are on board with it. And it helps that Glenn and Maggie have lasted so long. I know Glenn and Maggie are together in the comics, but it's still good to know the show hasn't been pressured by execs to end this relationship.

 

However, in my experience, there is a special hatred for Black women on TV (and elsewhere in this business). It's getting better, I think, because people aren't being quiet about it anymore, but it exists and it's weird. So what Scott Gimple, Andrew Lincoln and Danai Gurira want won't mean much if ad people or TV execs get involved.

 

Rod Serling (Twilight Zone) talked about how much sway people with extreme views had on TV and how often he had to change scripts because of corporate sponsors feeling certain things were too controversial. He discussed a scene that offended some people. Apparently, the execs received several angry letters about it and even though the letters all came from the same zip code, the scene was cut. I know that was a long time ago, but I don't think TV has changed that much. Ads still rule.

 

I would be shocked if Rick and Michonne get shower scenes like Glenn and Maggie, or naked sex scenes like the one Glenn and Maggie had in that watch tower that time. That would be when the letters/emails would start, and that is when the execs would tell the show to back off. At this point, I think they've come too far to break Rick and Michonne up, but I doubt AMC will lose ad revenue to keep Scott Gimple's vision intact. It's going to be all before and after shots for Richonne. I would be happy to be wrong.

 

But to get back to progressive vs. subversive: I think people are misusing "progressive" and really mean subversive.

[catcory]

Rick and Michonne = Love in the ZA = Hunky Dunky

Even though we may never get a shower scene with Rick and Michonne (which in my opinion would be so FREAKING HOT!!) or going at it like Glenn and Maggie did in the watch tower (again which would be FREAKING HOT!!), I will say that the kissing on the sofa was the HOTTEST SHIT I HAVE EVER SEEN. I mean just seeing it on TV, I was seriously blushing and going "Oh, baby, baby", way to go Officer Friendly. And really that scene in the bedroom was so damn sensual and sexy, we did not have to see the act to know that they had a night of passion.

And that is what Rick and Michonne have, they have a passion for each other and for me as someone who saw something that moment at the fence, it is something to behold. They are just so beautiful together.

Edited April 15, 2016 by catcory

[jsbt]

I think there's plenty of reasons to quit on a show or take a break and that's down to whatever a person feels. My point was just that I personally don't carry what holds sway in fandom with me while watching this show when it's become clear this show does not care what the most intense pockets of fandom want and will not bow to it.

 

Shipping is strictly our province. We may have a thread for it here but they have their own plans. If the twain occasionally meets (as with Richonne) great, but more often than not they don't give a shit. They are not going to renovate the show based on TD viewer tweets and that's something I've never had to worry about. Which is great. Like, if someone online is still pushing for Rick and anyone but the dark-skinned black woman - they are just not going to do that. That is not going to happen. It can be out there but it's not having an impact on the creative process, so I don't do anything but scoff. With other shows that might be another story (i.e., Sleepy Hollow and its profound discomfort with its black lead), but not here.

 

Frankly I think the biggest albatross they struggle with is constantly infusing the show with more comic characters and/or twists while maintaining their independent narrative, since Kirkman is still very much involved and has, ah, outlasted two showrunners. And that's largely unrelated from any romance issue, IMO.

Edited April 15, 2016 by jsbt

[kia112]

(I do wish the show had clarified why Glenn and Abe seemed so surprised by Rick and Michonne. I would have thought everyone's attitude would have been more like Daryl's - nonexistent. Was Glenn surprised because Rick never said anything to him about liking Michonne? Was he surprised the way many people are surprised when they learn their parents or teachers actually have sex? And Abe, like everyone else, has been a witness to how close Rick and Michonne are, and his attraction to both Rosita and Sasha proves that he wouldn't blink an eye at an interracial couple. Don't get me wrong, I got a kick out of Glenn's and Abe's reaction, but the TV viewer in me wanted to know what the others thought about it and why they each reacted the way they did.)

 

I think any person would have had that reaction. Chasing an intruder into the house of friends and seeing those friends, who have separate bedrooms, coming from one of their bedrooms half dressed? Abe was just being a weirdo in general that episode about uggin' bumplies, so nothing he does surprises me. Glenn, after the initial shock, seemed nonchalant as well. He definitely saw them holding hands in the RV and definitely had zero reaction.

[FilmPimp]

If only! I wish fan reaction had swayed Alan Ball with True Blood. Talk about a clusterfuck. Bill would of died/disappeared the end of season 3 and Sookie and Eric would still be together. That show was a lesson in diminishing returns.

[slade3]

I think there's plenty of reasons to quit on a show or take a break and that's down to whatever a person feels. My point was just that I personally don't carry what holds sway in fandom with me while watching this show when it's become clear this show does not care what the most intense pockets of fandom want and will not bow to it.

 

Shipping is strictly our province. We may have a thread for it here but they have their own plans. If the twain occasionally meets (as with Richonne) great, but more often than not they don't give a shit. They are not going to renovate the show based on TD viewer tweets and that's something I've never had to worry about. Which is great. Like, if someone online is still pushing for Rick and anyone but the dark-skinned black woman - they are just not going to do that. That is not going to happen. It can be out there but it's not having an impact on the creative process, so I don't do anything but scoff. With other shows that might be another story (i.e., Sleepy Hollow and its profound discomfort with its black lead), but not here.

 

Frankly I think the biggest albatross they struggle with is constantly infusing the show with more comic characters and/or twists while maintaining their independent narrative, since Kirkman is still very much involved and has, ah, outlasted two showrunners. And that's largely unrelated from any romance issue, IMO.

It's not that the TV show runners follow what a small group of fans think. The ad execs follow what a small group of vocal fans think. The ad execs express concerns to the network execs and the network execs tell the show runners what they have to do. We'll see how it goes. I'm rooting for TWD and Richonne, but I admit to worrying a bit because of my experience with other shows.

 

Rick and Michonne = Love in the ZA = Hunky Dunky

Even though we may never get a shower scene with Rick and Michonne (which in my opinion would be so FREAKING HOT!!) or going at it like Glenn and Maggie did in the watch tower (again which would be FREAKING HOT!!), I will say that the kissing on the sofa was the HOTTEST SHIT I HAVE EVER SEEN. I mean just seeing it on TV, I was seriously blushing and going "Oh, baby, baby", way to go Officer Friendly. And really that scene in the bedroom was so damn sensual and sexy, we did not have to see the act to know that they had a night of passion.

And that is what Rick and Michonne have, they have a passion for each other and for me as someone who saw something that moment at the fence, it is something to behold. They are just so beautiful together.

Well, I'd love a shower scene, but I'm happy with kisses and I love yous. I didn't particularly like the watch tower sex and wouldn't want Rick and Michonne to do that. Doesn't seem like their style anyway. Love Glenn and Maggie but that seemed a bit...unsophisticated for Richonne. I could be wrong, but they seem like a couple who prefers privacy and beds.

 

I think any person would have had that reaction. Chasing an intruder into the house of friends and seeing those friends, who have separate bedrooms, coming from one of their bedrooms half dressed? Abe was just being a weirdo in general that episode about uggin' bumplies, so nothing he does surprises me. Glenn, after the initial shock, seemed nonchalant as well. He definitely saw them holding hands in the RV and definitely had zero reaction.

I interpreted Glenn's look in the RV to be concerned, so I'm curious. I think he cares deeply for both Rick and Michonne (and has known Rick longer of course), I'd like to know what he thinks.

 

If only! I wish fan reaction had swayed Alan Ball with True Blood. Talk about a clusterfuck. Bill would of died/disappeared the end of season 3 and Sookie and Eric would still be together. That show was a lesson in diminishing returns.

Gave up on True Blood after 2 seasons. Did Sookie end up with Bill? That would have bothered me. I always rooted for Eric in the books, but failed to read the last 3 books.

Edited April 15, 2016 by slade3

[jsbt]

Network interference is always a question with 99% of popular shows and I'm sure the network chimes in on certain things here (in addition to lowballing them on budget), but I think if network execs were going to step in on stuff such as this, the Daryl Show featuring Daryl's Lovely Ladies would've been in full swing years ago.

[catcory]

Well, I'd love a shower scene, but I'm happy with kisses and I love yous. I didn't particularly like the watch tower sex and wouldn't want Rick and Michonne to do that. Doesn't seem like their style anyway. Love Glenn and Maggie but that seemed a bit...unsophisticated for Richonne. I could be wrong, but they seem like a couple who prefers privacy and beds.

 

I interpreted Glenn's look in the RV to be concerned, so I'm curious. I think he cares deeply for both Rick and Michonne (and has known Rick longer of course), I'd like to know what he thinks.

Actually I am with you I don't want to see Rick and Michonne going at it in a watch tower, besides I love a nice soft bed to roll around in. And seriously while seeing them make love would be off the charts, seeing them in bed with his arms around her and her fingers running through his hair was SMOKING HOT, I think if they were to make love on TV I would probably have a heart attack.

When you see Glenn look at Rick and Michonne holding hands, it is actually at the same time that Abe is asking him about the Bisquick and pancakes. So I am not sure if that was concern about Rick and Michonne and wondering WTH Abe is talking about, LOL!!!

[FilmPimp]

 Gave up on True Blood after 2 seasons. Did Sookie end up with Bill? That would have bothered me. I always rooted for Eric in the books, but failed to read the last 3 books.

I was done after season 4 but continued hate-watching 7 episodes before the series finale. However, I do know she ended up with some random beard in the final scene. Never read the books but I understand the author had led readers to believe she would end up with Sam.....I think.

[Pete Martell]

I never said that you ruined the show and certainly would never think that because no fan can do that, but you are the one who stated that you were influenced by the opinions of others with these extreme views and even you stopped watching the show. I was responding to those comments. I reread what your comments in earlier posts to make I didn't misunderstand what you wrote and that is exactly what you were saying. 

 

I wasn't saying I ruined the show for you. I said I apologized if I derailed the discussion here, in the thread, in the posts you replied to.

 

I never said I stopped watching the show because of fan views. I stopped watching the show for a while after the end of last season because I thought the writing had become terrible, mostly through the godawful Rick/Jessie story and Carol becoming a nonstop meme (the knife-brandishing with Pete and that "children need stories" line in the season finale in particular). My opinion on the show is not influenced by fan views, even if I talk about fan views. When I said that I ended up wondering if I had just made up what was between Rick and Michonne, it was mostly hyperbole, because when I was here last season, there was such an insistence in some quarters on how there was never anything between them and that Rick and Jessie were great and if people didn't support her, they were misogynist, and so on. At that point, between that stuff and the push given to Jessie on Talking Dead and in the press, I did wonder where the show was going. That didn't mean they influenced my view, which was that the Jessie story was horrible, pointless, and damaged Rick's character. But sure, if a show that is a publicity outlet for TWD goes on and on about Jessie and Jessie/Rick, then I will wonder what the show's intent is. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I think there's plenty of reasons to quit on a show or take a break and that's down to whatever a person feels. My point was just that I personally don't carry what holds sway in fandom with me while watching this show when it's become clear this show does not care what the most intense pockets of fandom want and will not bow to it.

 

I don't think their opinion makes a huge difference with the show. There are times when I do wonder if it has some influence - if some of the reason Daryl and Carol barely interact now is because of how nasty some fans got, if the reason why Eric became an under-five and he and Aaron had pretty much zero interaction was because of the intense backlash they got last season, etc. No show is immune to fan response. Sometimes I think even Daryl's lack of love life is partly down to that, because it would be a huge risk to have him in a relationship, a risk that probably isn't worth it. Sometimes I think it's just a natural part of the character arc. But me talking about fan response or talking about why I'm glad the show did something (like Richonne) in spite of certain fan response doesn't mean fan response is dictating how I feel about the show. If that was the case, then I'd probably hate Daryl, as I can't stand the "if Daryl dies we riot" stuff. But that's not him, it's the fans. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

[catrox14]

This video popped up on Tumblr. It was made a couple of years ago in response to the fandom nonsense surrounding the show Sleepy Hollow - which, as far as I'm concerned, fell on its own sword and which I will no longer watch. However everything he says applies to TWD and specifically Michonne. I've already made these arguments and was dismissed and disrespected by the usual suspects - people who will never, ever admit to either being outright racist or seeing that their viewpoint may have been formed by systemic racism. These people will never see my point as valid because they consider the source. I thought this was interesting because this comes from a different source.

At any rate, long live Richonne. Gimple made history and broke through a glass ceiling. I will always love him for that in spite of shitty cliffhangers.

 

 

Oh gods. This is breaking my heart :(:( What might have been

Edited April 16, 2016 by catrox14

[jsbt]

There are times when I do wonder if it has some influence - if some of the reason Daryl and Carol barely interact now is because of how nasty some fans got, if the reason why Eric became an under-five and he and Aaron had pretty much zero interaction was because of the intense backlash they got last season, etc. No show is immune to fan response. Sometimes I think even Daryl's lack of love life is partly down to that, because it would be a huge risk to have him in a relationship, a risk that probably isn't worth it. Sometimes I think it's just a natural part of the character arc.

 

I see what you're saying. But I think that's subjective, though; I personally don't see that as having anything to do with the fan reaction. I think most of that is largely coincidental and the result, good or bad, of their creative choices and narrative priorities and where it took their characters' stories. I also don't think there was any intense backlash WRT Aaron and Eric - there were a handful of bigoted fans like there are for any gay couple on most shows, sure, but after the initial reporting and immediate condemnation by every media outlet that non-story was over in less than a weekend. That said, it was clear from the beginning to me at least that the show considered Aaron and Eric and most of the other Alexandrians to be third-tier characters last season and for most of this one. It's only just now that Aaron has returned to any narrative prominence. Maybe that will continue, maybe it won't but there's always been characters the show has just not made a big priority. Or maybe Aaron and Eric will begin filling roles akin to the gradual evolution of people like Tara, Rosita and Eugene. Would I like them to do more with Aaron and Eric, sure. Do I think the reason they haven't is because of a small portion of bigots in the audience? No, TWD has always prioritized various tiers of characters. Whether or not I agree with that every time is another story, but I still think their reasons are entirely internal.

 

I think they've enumerated the reasons why they didn't do that stuff with Daryl. And if they had, what would really have happened? What would the risk actually be? Losing a handful of hardcore shippers? The show is ratings-proof on that front.

Edited April 16, 2016 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

 I also don't think there was any intense backlash WRT Aaron and Eric - there were a handful of bigoted fans like there are for any gay couple on most shows, sure, but after the initial reporting and immediate condemnation by every media outlet that non-story was over in less than a weekend. That said, it was clear from the beginning to me at least that the show considered Aaron and Eric and most of the other Alexandrians to be third-tier characters last season and for most of this one. It's only just now that Aaron has returned to any narrative prominence. Maybe that will continue, maybe it won't but there's always been characters the show has just not made a big priority. Or maybe Aaron and Eric will begin filling roles akin to the gradual evolution of people like Tara, Rosita and Eugene. Would I like them to do more with Aaron and Eric, sure. Do I think the reason they haven't is because of a small portion of bigots in the audience? No, TWD has always prioritized various tiers of characters. Whether or not I agree with that every time is another story, but I still think their reasons are entirely internal.

 

A part of me agrees, but when even Olivia had more focus for Alexandrians than Eric, I do end up wondering if they cut down on his airtime for a reason. I guess at least he hasn't been killed off yet.

[SimoneS]

A part of me agrees, but when even Olivia had more focus for Alexandrians than Eric, I do end up wondering if they cut down on his airtime for a reason. I guess at least he hasn't been killed off yet.

 

It's not that the TV show runners follow what a small group of fans think. The ad execs follow what a small group of vocal fans think. The ad execs express concerns to the network execs and the network execs tell the show runners what they have to do. We'll see how it goes. I'm rooting for TWD and Richonne, but I admit to worrying a bit because of my experience with other shows.

 

But again, how could TWD cut down on the airtime of any character or any story because of the reactions of a small group of fans or ad executives when show is outlined and all scripts are written before the show starts filming? I cannot imagine ad executives or AMC risking the bad publicity that would result when the general public found out that they caved into racist and bigoted fans. I just find this overwhelming weight given to a vocal minority of Internet fans perplexing.

 

I am repeating myself so I won't be making any further comment on this topic.

Edited April 16, 2016 by SimoneS

[Pete Martell]

But again, how could TWD cut down on the airtime of any character or any story because of the reactions of a small group of fans or ad executives when show is outlined and all scripts are written before the show starts filming? 

 

If you're talking about what I said with Eric and Aaron, the criticisms were in the back half of season 5, in time for any minor changes for season 6 (and Eric was always a minor character anyway - just not an extra the way he was this past season).

 

It's just my speculation. Nothing more or less. It's not intended to perplex or confuse, it's just my opinion. Maybe you're right and nothing ever changes per fan reaction. I'm sure we won't know until the show is done anyway, if even then.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Pete Martell

[Nashville]

I just re-watched that episode last week Lori was rightly warning Rick how dangerous Shane was. She only just realized how dangerous because Dale told her that he believed that he murdered Otis, and that Dale knew guys like that and eventually Shane would kill somebody else. When Lori asked Shane about it, he said that what happened because he loved her and Carl while insisting what they had was real. She warned her husband to protect him from an obsession man who attempted to rape her. Again, the fact is that if she really wanted Rick to kill Shane all she had to do was tell him about the attempted rape.

 

You mean, the attempted rape during the visit to the CDC which never happened?  ;>

[SevenStars]

I just find out that NR is only 3 yrs younger than Melissa and that surprised me so much because of how fans act like she is way much older than him. And Melissa is only a month older than my Mom, lol.

Anyway, I don't want Carol and Daryl to ever become romantic but some of the fans gave the impression that Carol would be robbing the cradle if she gets with Daryl. It's like serously, they are almost the same age.

Maybe it has something to do with the way Norman acts because he does act like he is way younger than his actually age, I even thought Andrew was older than him because of that. So maybe those people are reacting base on that.

Edited April 17, 2016 by SevenStars

[AnnaMayWong]

...and SEXISM ➡ Oftentimes, women are perceived as 'older' than men of the same age (men in the 50s age bracket considered 'sex symbols' whereas a woman just may 'look good' FOR HER AGE' )

[Timetoread]

Yes, Rick changed his mind about giving Michonne to Phillip in exchange for peace, but I never thought he was going to go through with it anyway. Even Merle knew that Rick wouldn't which is why he took Michonne on his own. I wasn't surprised that Daryl was going along with it despite his misgivings, but I was surprised that Hershel was. but he changed his mind also. I thought it was a good test for Rick and Hershel. They almost made a horrible decision, but pulled back before it was too late. Merle got a little redemption when he balked at re-entering the darkness and let Michonne go.

 

My take on that whole scenario is that it served three purposes:

1) to juxtapose the difference between good and evil in a world where killing even humans is part of daily survival.  We knew that Rick would kill without guilt if it was for the safety of his family and those he is protecting.  That was the ruse with Michonne, he considered offering her life to save those of the people at the prison, many of whom would not live through a war with the Governnor and his towns.  He even asked Herschel if he would be willing to risk losing Beth or Maggie to save this stranger.  But with everybody's objections and in his own reflection, he came to see that Michonne was one of the people who he should protect and was already one of his group, not a sacrificial lamb. 

2) to mark the end of the Ricktatorship.  Making all the life and death decisions on his own was killing Rick.  He decided to reopen the democracy in that everybody should get a say in decisions that might cost them their lives.  It also showed that some beliefs are worth dying for.  CDB showed that they'd rather die with their consciences intact than become like the Governor.

3) to set up Merle's redemption.  It was racist, misogynistic Merle, who already had a score to settle with Michonne, that chose to free her and make himself the sacrificial lamb in her place.  Merle went out on a high note.

 

(I do wish the show had clarified why Glenn and Abe seemed so surprised by Rick and Michonne. I would have thought everyone's attitude would have been more like Daryl's - nonexistent. Was Glenn surprised because Rick never said anything to him about liking Michonne? Was he surprised the way many people are surprised when they learn their parents or teachers actually have sex? And Abe, like everyone else, has been a witness to how close Rick and Michonne are, and his attraction to both Rosita and Sasha proves that he wouldn't blink an eye at an interracial couple. Don't get me wrong, I got a kick out of Glenn's and Abe's reaction, but the TV viewer in me wanted to know what the others thought about it and why they each reacted the way they did.)

 

IMO Glenn was surprised because I think he assumed that both of them were still caught up in their reasons for NOT having sex (mourning, running things, raising kids) because seriously, these two had literally slept side by side for MONTHS, so I guess Glenn figured that if it hadn't happened by now it was never going to happen.  As for Abe, I think his "surprise" was due to his recent awakening to wanting to live for something.  Wanting closeness and relationships and starting families.  I think he kind of pushed down those feelings for a while because it was the thing to do - a soldier following the attitude of the General.  But he walks in to find the General zipping his pants and was like, "Ok. Wow!"  Also let me add that Rick and Michonne were as surprised as everyone else.   It was as if someone just turned on the lights.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

I think there's plenty of reasons to quit on a show or take a break and that's down to whatever a person feels. My point was just that I personally don't carry what holds sway in fandom with me while watching this show when it's become clear this show does not care what the most intense pockets of fandom want and will not bow to it.

 

Shipping is strictly our province. We may have a thread for it here but they have their own plans. If the twain occasionally meets (as with Richonne) great, but more often than not they don't give a shit. They are not going to renovate the show based on TD viewer tweets and that's something I've never had to worry about. Which is great. Like, if someone online is still pushing for Rick and anyone but the dark-skinned black woman - they are just not going to do that. That is not going to happen. It can be out there but it's not having an impact on the creative process, so I don't do anything but scoff. With other shows that might be another story (i.e., Sleepy Hollow and its profound discomfort with its black lead), but not here.

 

Frankly I think the biggest albatross they struggle with is constantly infusing the show with more comic characters and/or twists while maintaining their independent narrative, since Kirkman is still very much involved and has, ah, outlasted two showrunners. And that's largely unrelated from any romance issue, IMO.

 

I also think people are starting to confuse "giving in to fandom" with "occasions when one particular fandom wanted what was going to happen anyway."  The Richonne fandom was not very large but was indeed adamant that what they were seeing should not be dismissed as fantasy.  It is because they/we were seeing what Scott Gimple was actually writing into the show.  It is because of that fact that I don't consider it to be "shipping" as opposed to approving of the direction the show was going.

 

Sleepy Hollow turned out to be a hot mess.  The real problem, IMO, is that the showrunners never understood why it was popular to begin with.  Originally, they weren't casting for diversity, they just eneded up with a diverse cast by accident.  The lead actors, two unknowns, connected immediately with their roles and with each other.  It was lightning in a bottle.  The supporting actors (Orlando Jones and John Cho) came with their own fanbases who were thrilled to see them in unusual roles and the excellent acting that they did in these roles.  The genre brings a fanbase that tends to like original and subversive (using it correctly) storytelling and shuns romantic storylines unless they are organic to and propel the story in a compelling manner.  SH, for a second there, was a truly post racial show.  I made this point on another message board by recounting the scene that made me realize this.  Ichabod lay dying of an unknown disease and Abbie (his partner), Frank Irving (police chief and her boss), and the CDC doctor (a black actor) were having a conversation about how to save him.  There were three black actors in one scene who were not related to each other, not romantically involved with each other, interacting on a solely, and competently, professional manner.  This was not an urban piece or diverse because of location.  It just was and it didn't matter, wasn't remarked upon, and was completely organic and logical.  THIS is post-racial.  SH showrunners were unaware of all of this.  Only when it became a bona fide hit did they become self aware and sought to "fix" those things that are usually counterproductive for successful shows.  And in doing so they flushed everything that made the show special down the toilet.  And they silenced those who tried to tell them about the mistakes they were making.  Very sad, but it deserves cancellation.  It also deserves an autopsy.  Showrunner need to reread the room.  Society is changing faster than they are and they need grow a pair and let things be - especially when it works to their advantage.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Timetoread

[catcory]

IMO Glenn was surprised because I think he assumed that both of them were still caught up in their reasons for NOT having sex (mourning, running things, raising kids) because seriously, these two had literally slept side by side for MONTHS, so I guess Glenn figured that if it hadn't happened by now it was never going to happen.  As for Abe, I think his "surprise" was due to his recent awakening to wanting to live for something.  Wanting closeness and relationships and starting families.  I think he kind of pushed down those feelings for a while because it was the thing to do - a soldier following the attitude of the General.  But he walks in to find the General zipping his pants and was like, "Ok. Wow!"  Also let me add that Rick and Michonne were as surprised as everyone else.   It was as if someone just turned on the lights.

This really is probably one of the funniest scenes on the show, first they get caught by Jesus, then by Carl and then by the whole gang. It was so funny from the beginning of the scene, both Rick and Michonne running out of the room half naked and seeing Carl there and Rick is like "OH SHIT" and looks around for Michonne and the look on Michonne's face is priceless. Both Rick and Michonne are looking around wondering WTH, they did not even get to enjoy the afterglow of a beautiful night of love and passion, and forget morning sex, Jesus took care of that. I always crack up at that scene. I am pretty sure they knew people were going to find out but they did not think it was going to be like this. They had to know that by breakfast the whole town was going to find out, LOL!!! I love it!!