S02.E04: 204

[Quiche]

She gave up Cole and her home?  So, having an affair and walking out on her husband means she's 'earned' a place with Noah?  And giving up her 'home'?  Sorry, I don't buy this.  I do believe that Allison was unhappy with Cole, but I also believe that with Noah she sees a way out.  In him, she sees a successful older man with money, she doesn't have to be a waitress and live in a shitty house anymore.  Noah is her chance for a better life.

 

True, Noah is Allison's way out.  But she also chose him, and he chose her, and they have been living together.  And Noah asked her to marry him, and she agreed.  She's more than a paramour, quite definitely.

 

As his fiance, she deserves more consideration.  

[truthaboutluv]

Noah came out of his memory with the judge is bias against him and Helen came out of hers with the judge was against her. Interesting they both think the judge is after them.

 

 

Yeah I thought that was very interesting. Personally I thought the judge hated them both because he's probably so tired of bitter parents wanting to screw each other over in his courtroom. One thing I do believe actually happened was when in Noah's version he stated that he hoped they could come to some amicable arrangement on their own so this didn't have to play out in a courtroom. 

 

It was back in another episode that Helen had arranged an appointment with a psychiatrist for him, but Noah was pissed off about it because he wanted him to go to a baseball game instead.

 

 

Yes and he was insistent that she scheduled the appointment that day on purpose because she knew he had tickets to the game even if Helen told him it was the earliest she could get. From what Helen was saying, I get the impression Martin has already been checked out by a medical doctor who found nothing wrong, which is why Helen decided to have him see a therapist. So it very likely is a mental and physical. 

 

How is it that when Helen makes mistakes, she "owns" it in her POV  and it's likeable and yet when the same thing happens to Noah it is proof of how shitty he is? Why are the two subjected to different standards?

 

 

Okay...pause. If I'm being quoted I like it to be what I actually wrote. Nowhere did I say Helen's actions made her likable and unlike other comments, nowhere have I said "poor Helen." My whole reason for stating that she made those choices and that I agree about those who don't feel sorry for her is to make clear that I'm not giving the character a pass just because her husband dumped her. Point blank...she fucked up and fucked up badly. 

 

That being said, there is no different standards because in my opinion, Noah DOESN'T own up to his shit. Helen was a domineering, controlling, snobby bitch of a wife who emasculated him, his in-laws were horrible, snobby, evil people who also emasculated him, hell Alison (judging by how he constantly remembers her in his memory) practically threw herself onto him repeatedly. Nothing is really Noah's fault.

 

He's not a shitty, absent father the last year, no Helen is being a bitch and forcing him to choose between the kids and his new girlfriend. In Noah's mind he is the good guy. That's why he stomped out of his sister's house in a huff because she dared to tell him he was full of shit even mentioning full custody. Everyone but Alison who practically worships him in his mind is mean and unfair to Noah. 

 

Well, Helen's point of view didn't shy away from her looking extremely foolish, or her scattered thinking.  In Noah's POV, everyone else is being mean to him, even though he is being heroic.

 

 

Basically this... 

 

Let's not forget the fact that Helen was indeed high as a kite when she got behind the driver's seat with her children in the car.

Let's not forget that she backed up, not checking on her children, and as a result her little girl has a bruised bump on her head.

 

I didn't forget any of these things and nowhere did I make excuses for it. But Helen screwing up and me recognizing that she screwed up doesn't make Noah suddenly less of a douche-face or likable. But as always, YMMV.

Edited October 26, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Constantinople]

I really don't feel like "poor Helen" in this episode at all. She got drunk and high, then drove through Manhattan where she could have hit or killed people then picked up her children and could have seriously hurt them. Reversing like that with the kids unbuckled, she could have killed them or a pedestrian behind her. She gets no sympathy or poor Helen for her behavior. Noah cheating on her, isn't illegal or can kill someone, what Helen did could. She's worse than him for her behavior this episode.

 

 

Let's not forget the fact that Helen was indeed high as a kite when she got behind the driver's seat with her children in the car.

Let's not forget that she backed up, not checking on her children, and as a result her little girl has a bruised bump on her head.

 

How many times should that happen?

 

Noah was sober, perhaps, when his paramour, a trained nurse, advised him to take Martin to a hospital.

 

Dr Noah-it-all Solloway decided to do nothing and hope for the best.  Martin lucked out, but he could have suffered far worse medical consequences than a bump on his head thanks to his father's negligence.

 

Noah chasing Trevor around on the trampoline wasn't too bright either.

[Quiche]

Martin needed to go to the bathroom.  When he did, he felt better.  If the pain had continued, Noah would have taken him to the hospital.

Nothing Noah did compares with being high on both drugs and alcohol and driving a car with your kids in the backseat.

 

But I don't think Noah really wants full custody.  He's just reacting with shock and anger - at what happened in court that day and at Helen's situation.  

 

I don't think he can handle full custody.  First, he doesn't have the money.  Second, he doesn't have the living space.  Third, he's beginning life with a new woman.  At best he can handle visitation and a summer vacation.  

[briochetwist]

As his fiance, she deserves more consideration.  

As his fiancee?  Yeah, about that.  They're both still married - TO OTHER PEOPLE!  I think that cancels out the fiancee thing, at least for now.

[KittyS]

She gave up Cole and her home?  So, having an affair and walking out on her husband means she's 'earned' a place with Noah?  And giving up her 'home'?  Sorry, I don't buy this.  I do believe that Allison was unhappy with Cole, but I also believe that with Noah she sees a way out.  In him, she sees a successful older man with money, she doesn't have to be a waitress and live in a shitty house anymore.  Noah is her chance for a better life.

I definitely don't think she has "earned" a thing, but I can't agree with that characterization of Allison. She could sell her grandma's house and walk away with a decent chunk of change, even after Cole's share and taxes, plus she's got her nursing profession that she could return to. Those two things would allow her to make a fresh start in many places. Noah's the unhirable, rubber-roomed teacher with a failed first novel and four kids to help support who is mooching off friends of friends for a place to live while he refuses to finish his second novel. I think Noah represented an escape to Allison, but not for financial reasons. I think she was too stuck to leave her old grief-filled life and Noah gave her the push she needed. Her desire for him seems to be based more on emotional need than financial. God, they're both losers, aren't they? I really don't have anyone to root for on this show. Maybe Stacy, but I'm sure she'll end up turning into the world's youngest serial killer.

[briochetwist]

I definitely don't think she has "earned" a thing, but I can't agree with that characterization of Allison. She could sell her grandma's house and walk away with a decent chunk of change, even after Cole's share and taxes, plus she's got her nursing profession that she could return to. Those two things would allow her to make a fresh start in many places. Noah's the unhirable, rubber-roomed teacher with a failed first novel and four kids to help support who is mooching off friends of friends for a place to live while he refuses to finish his second novel. I think Noah represented an escape to Allison, but not for financial reasons. I think she was too stuck to leave her old grief-filled life and Noah gave her the push she needed. Her desire for him seems to be based more on emotional need than financial. God, they're both losers, aren't they? I really don't have anyone to root for on this show. Maybe Stacy, but I'm sure she'll end up turning into the world's youngest serial killer.

Very good points.  I should have made myself clear that I based that on their initial first impressions, not what their lives have turned into since.  When she first met Noah he was a teacher and published author who lives in the city and summers with wealthy relatives.  She was a waitress who occassionally did catering jobs who lived in lousy house with her husband, barely making ends meet.  When they met, he was a 'have' and she was definitely a 'have not'.

 

Also, you mention that she has her nursing career to fall back on, but she hasn't.  And unless I'm remembering incorrectly (which is entirely possible because it seems like I barely remember a lot of season 1)  when she and Cole were struggling for money, she opted to become part of the drug scheme instead of going back to nursing.  So, in my opinion, while she does have options, she chooses to ignore them.

 

I love that her knight in shining armour turns out to be a dud.  They are both losers though, most definitely.

[Quiche]

Very good points.  I should have made myself clear that I based that on their initial first impressions, not what their lives have turned into since.  When she first met Noah he was a teacher and published author who lives in the city and summers with wealthy relatives.  She was a waitress who occassionally did catering jobs who lived in lousy house with her husband, barely making ends meet.  When they met, he was a 'have' and she was definitely a 'have not'.

 

Also, you mention that she has her nursing career to fall back on, but she hasn't.  And unless I'm remembering incorrectly (which is entirely possible because it seems like I barely remember a lot of season 1)  when she and Cole were struggling for money, she opted to become part of the drug scheme instead of going back to nursing.  So, in my opinion, while she does have options, she chooses to ignore them.

 

I love that her knight in shining armour turns out to be a dud.  They are both losers though, most definitely.

 

I thought the drug dealing was the enterprise of the Lockhart sons, and they were doing this to save their horse ranch.

If it wasn't for that husband and his family, Allison could do very well just by being a waitress.

[briochetwist]

 

If it wasn't for that husband and his family, Allison could do very well just by being a waitress.

 

Sure, nothing provides for a comfortable future like working at a roadside diner.  

[Muffyn]

I liked Max more tonight than I did the first time we saw him but I think he handled that break up badly in saying no one was good enough for her.  He wasn't actually seeing Helen, he was seeing the fantasy he has wanted since college.  This Helen is a mess.  She is barely keeping her head above water.  She is still trying to figure out how it all happened and how it went wrong.  

 

Max wants her in an emotional place she is nowhere near being. 

I agree; Max showed that he really doesn't see Helen for who she is.  He is seeing the idealized version of her that he has coveted since college.  I would say it was sweet of him to set aside time to see her after her morning in court, it was very much about him and his desires.  He assumed she would want to have sex with him.  After all he set aside 60 minutes for sexy times and 10 minutes for gift giving.  Sure, I'd love a trip to Brazil, but I am not taking care of four (effed up) kids.  Helene is in the middle of an ugly divorce.  Running off for a week with her new "paramour" (I could listen to Richard Schiff say that over and over - oh wait, I did!) would not play well in court.  

 

While I certainly don't condone Helen picking up her kids while drunk and stoned, I understand how it happened.  She thought she had the day to herself.  She got drunk and more stoned than she planned to.  Next thing you know, everything spiraled out of control.  I enjoyed how Maura Tierney played drunk and trying to pull off her Spanx, especially the way she hunched over and danced on one foot.  Let's just say I've enacted a similar scene recently, only fortunately no one was filming.  I can assure you that dance was pretty damn accurate.

 

As always, i am amazed that Noah is an asshole even in his own recollections.  

[Sheenieb]

Ugh, those kids are the motherfucking worst.

 

If I were Noah, and my sister said she loved my kids, I would beg her to take them. Every week I'm appalled at how they speak to their parents.

 

I can't believe Helen or Noah would want full custody of those brats.  Stacy's all right, for now, but the rest? I can't even.

[Quiche]

As his fiancee?  Yeah, about that.  They're both still married - TO OTHER PEOPLE!  I think that cancels out the fiancee thing, at least for now.

 

I am not so sure.  Let's consider the position of both women.

 

Allison:

1.  She lived with Noah the past few months.  They are in love.

2.  Noah asked her to marry him.  She said yes.  He gave her an engagement ring.

 

Helen:

1.  Noah has not lived with her for several months.

2.  Noah is no longer "in love" with Helen.

3.  Helen is the wife that he is in the process of divorcing.  She only remains his wife until the divorce is final.  It is only in that strict legal sense that he is married to Helen.

 

What does his marriage to Helen amount to?

– Is he supporting his family?  Is he supporting Helen?

– At this moment are Noah and Helen good friends and sharing their daily lives?

– Do they have any hope at reconciling?

 

I suppose how you and I perceive this "marriage" depends much on whose side you are on and who you believe is the guilty party.

 

I see no guilty parties, but Helen is certainly the victim of the circumstances.

 

Who or what caused the breakup of this marriage?  I think it is precisely what Noah told his younger son – that he fell in love with another woman.  To that extent he is at fault, however, it happens a lot in our society.  Loads of parents divorce and eventually the children adjust.

 

I don't necessarily see Helen at fault.  That would be blaming the victim.  Everybody has their flaws.  It is her unfortunate circumstance that she is still in love with her husband while he is no longer in love with her.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Quiche

[Irlandesa]

As his fiancee?  Yeah, about that.  They're both still married - TO OTHER PEOPLE!  I think that cancels out the fiancee thing, at least for now.

 

I am not so sure.  Let's consider the position of both women.

 

Allison:

1.  She lived with Noah the past few months.  They are in love.

2.  Noah asked her to marry him.  She said yes.  He gave her an engagement ring.

 

Helen:

1.  Noah has not lived with her for several months.

2.  Noah is no longer "in love" with Helen.

3.  Helen is the wife that he is in the process of divorcing.  She only remains his wife until the divorce is final.  It is only in that strict legal sense that he is married to Helen.

 

What does his marriage to Helen amount to?

– Is he supporting his family?  Is he supporting Helen?

– At this moment are Noah and Helen good friends and sharing their daily lives?

– Do they have any hope at reconciling?

I see what you're saying but being married is still a factor that's trumping what Allison wants because that marriage still involves four children.  The judge issuing an order that the children and Allison shouldn't interact wasn't put in place for Helen's feelings.  It was put in place for the children.  I doubt it's an order that can be sustained but it gives them a reprieve, while still maintaining a relationship with their father.  And the fact that Noah was married when this happened matters because he did leave his current marriage because of another woman. I don't think it's fair to ask them to understand immediately why their family unit was disrupted because "daddy fell in love."

 

I get Allison wanting consideration but she's not being practical.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Nanrad]

I liked tonight's episode better than last week's.

Poor Helen – not!  Actually, she's the one making the situation more difficult for children because she's the one turning it into a custody fight.

I enjoyed seeing her get her comeuppance.  Her wanting to keep the children away from Allison is just pure spite and jealousy.

I hated Noah's father – he's a creep.  Say what you have to say and say it out clear.  I hate people who play games.  And what business is it of the sister-in-law?  It's none of her business.

I don't blame Allison for insisting on her place in Noah's life.  She did give up things for him, such as Cole and her home.  It's crappy of Noah to shunt her side now.  And he's just doing it to win the children from Helen, but you don't win them that way.

I did enjoy Helen in both halves of the story tonight.  I'm glad she was dragged down a peg or two.

Why does Helen deserve a comeuppance for wanting to keep her kids away from Noah's mistress, especially if Noah has tunnel vision concerning said mistress??? Even the judge found that questionable and ordered her away from the kids. If that was Helen's doing, Noah would've been sure to highlight that.

 

Also, how is she making the situation more difficult by going to court? Whitney was pissed as hell to see Noah living with Alison? You don't think Noah living with his mistress and becoming engaged to her is MORE stressful than going to court to see who stays with who primarily. And it's not as if Helen was trying to deny Noah the opportunity to see his kids. She wants visitation, BUT she also doesn't want Alison around, which is compounded by the fact that her kids emotionally react to Alison.

 

How is Noah's dad a creep? It was pretty clear what his father was saying, "even when things are tough, you don't take the opportunity to fuck someone else." Again, Noah is well within his right to leave, but it was the expense of his family. Many here aren't really confused about what was being said even if they interpreted it differently. Actually, that woman was his sister and, business or not, siblings give unsolicited advice all of the time. If her advice was in agreement with him, Noah would've been all smiles, but since she was honest, he was upset.

 

He's not doing it to "win" the children from Helen, he's doing it because the both of them could get in trouble if she's around. If Noah cares about being a real father, his ids are more important than her. Alison willingly gave up her own life for a married man with four kids. She's no victim here. She allowed herself to be in a position to rely heavily on a man going through a custody battle all while knowing the wife doesn't want her around the kids. Even if Noah doesn't get the full time, Alison being around hurts things regardless. 

 

I'm not understanding why she deserved to be pulled down a peg

 

It is neither the fathers nor the sisters place to tell Noah what to do.

What Noah says he's thinking of doing the same day of a nasty court hearing is not what he will necessarily do.  The sister has no say.  She's not an understanding person, nor a perceptive person.  She is a know it all, and they are the worst kind of family members.

As for the father, I say it again – he's a creep.  His choice doesn't have to be his son's choice.  The man does not look like a happy type of man and he doesn't come off as a good father.  So in my opinion – he is not entitled to an opinion, especially when it's entirely judgmental.

She's not understanding or perceptive??? Then how was she able to conclude Noah's though process and the motivation behind wanting the kids? Or access his behavior to piece together an accurate picture of what's going on??? They weren't telling him to do shit, but giving him the honest truth. His sister wasn't a know-it-all. When she was one when she was cracking jokes about Helen being snobby??? No, because it was at the expense of Helen, but telling her brother not to further destroy those kids world makes her the worst kind of person???

 

Gee, maybe not go pursue a relationship with a guy with a WIFE and FOUR children. Yeah it what world was that NOT going to be messy and complicated? So now she's faced with the reality that the woman whose husband she fucked hates her guts and is petty and spiteful and it means this guy now may be stuck having to choose between her and his kids and oops, she may not be his first choice. Oh the tragedy... Doesn't matter though, this is Noah, hardly father of the year, I'm sure she'll have him all to herself since he is finally "living for himself damn it, and why should he apologize for that?"

 

.....

 

Max was full of shit. Sorry dude, I can't have much sympathy for you pursuing a woman fresh out of a 20 year marriage which let's face it, as she rightly pointed out to him, she didn't leave or want out of. Noah left her. Helen was reeling and in a very emotional place and Max should have known she was nowhere near ready for any serious relationship. And I didn't blame her for feeling suffocated and being "it's too much" with the surprise trip and all that. And I thought she tried to be as nice as possible in ending things. 

 

 

What I loved is that by the end of Noah's segment it showed that as smug as he was about Helen screwing up for once, even spouting that bullshit for a second about full custody, it was clear how hard dealing with these kids on one's own is and unlike him, Helen doesn't get to check in and check out. A few hours and he had the kids going from one home to another, ending up in a crappy motel, Martin's stress stomach issues were back, annoying Trevor refused to get off the trampoline and he's having to chase him like a nut, Martin calls him an asshole and a dick, etc. Welcome to parenthood Noah. 

Truth, I'm cackling at the Noah quote.

 

Max honestly put himself in that position. Like, dude, she is in the process of getting a divorce and because she wants to end things you accuse her of no one being "good enough?" He's probably still pissed the she chose Noah over him. And how could Noah not being "good enough" for her, in her opinion, if she sent 20 years with him and is upset about the divorce. If she was really this man eater that he implied, then she would've left.

 

The fact that they had to drive around and ended up in a motel PROVES why the kids SHOULD be with Helen and why he doesn't have them as much. I agree that custody should be split for Helen's sanity. Noah doesn't even have his shit together to be fighting for split custody let alone FULL custody.

 

How is it that when Helen makes mistakes, she "owns" it in her POV  and it's likeable and yet when the same thing happens to Noah it is proof of how shitty he is? Why are the two subjected to different standards? This is not a rhetorical question, I really want to understand. As for me, I think Helen clearly made a mistake and doesn't deserve the custody punishment Noah was contemplating. Noah has had his fair share of mistakes, for some of which I've given him the benefit of the doubt too. Come to think of it, Alison and Cole too. I try to subject them to a roughly similar (forgiving) standard.

Some are sympathetic to Helen, but that doesn't equate to likable. In Helen's POV, we saw her willingly take drugs, drink alcohol, drive under the influence, park illegally, and then hit another car as she tried out hide her drugs. That's OWNING her shit. Like, yeah, she was mopey and shit, but she didn't try to sugarcoat her actions and didn't make herself the victim. Noah does all of this self centered shit, but wants a pat on the ass for hurting people and only thinking of himself. 

[Boundary]

Okay...pause. If I'm being quoted I like it to be what I actually wrote. Nowhere did I say Helen's actions made her likable and unlike other comments, nowhere have I said "poor Helen." 

 

Of course you didn't say that Helen herself is more likeable due to that and I never implied you said so. You did, however, say it is likeable that she owns her bad choices and I was simply questioning why it's not the same when Noah does the same.

 

Well, Helen's point of view didn't shy away from her looking extremely foolish, or her scattered thinking.  In Noah's POV, everyone else is being mean to him, even though he is being heroic.

 

No to belabor the point but Noah was in no way being heroic when screwing some woman on school property, or when he was hounded out of his former house, or when he was snapping at his kid for wanting to spend more time with him, or snapping at Alison for that matter. He admits to not being perfect, and regularly apologizes if he catches himself quick enough (to his kid and Alison in my examples above). People have been mean to him - Helen's parents slating him in front of his kids seemed like a routine occurrence, Helen emasculated him over a long period of time and it seems he doesn't get along with his own father. In addition, his kids are really difficult to handle. So yes it should seem like everybody is being mean to him. A large part of that is the guilt, I doubt he regrets being with Alison but I'm pretty sure that he'd admit to pangs of guilt for putting his kids through it all. I guess they'll seem less mean once everyone gets used to Alison and when he gets the big bucks of his own.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Boundary

[Nanrad]

I am not so sure.  Let's consider the position of both women.

 

Allison:

1.  She lived with Noah the past few months.  They are in love.

2.  Noah asked her to marry him.  She said yes.  He gave her an engagement ring.

 

Helen:

1.  Noah has not lived with her for several months.

2.  Noah is no longer "in love" with Helen.

3.  Helen is the wife that he is in the process of divorcing.  She only remains his wife until the divorce is final.  It is only in that strict legal sense that he is married to Helen.

 

What does his marriage to Helen amount to?

– Is he supporting his family?  Is he supporting Helen?

– At this moment are Noah and Helen good friends and sharing their daily lives?

– Do they have any hope at reconciling?

 

I suppose how you and I perceive this "marriage" depends much on whose side you are on and who you believe is the guilty party.

 

I see no guilty parties, but Helen is certainly the victim of the circumstances.

 

Who or what caused the breakup of this marriage?  I think it is precisely what Noah told his younger son – that he fell in love with another woman.  To that extent he is at fault, however, it happens a lot in our society.  Loads of parents divorce and eventually the children adjust.

 

I don't necessarily see Helen at fault.  That would be blaming the victim.  Everybody has their flaws.  It is her unfortunate circumstance that she is still in love with her husband while he is no longer in love with her.

 

RE: Being married cancelling out other things.

 

Legally, I believe it does. 

 

But, there are three things we must consider: 

 

1. They are  both still married--we know how the separation is going for Noah, but what about Alison? Are they talking to lawyers, going through mediation, etc? She wants consideration, but only one of them are ACTIVELY going through the divorce process. Even then, they still have obligations to their spouse about how to handle said separation and sorting through shared shit and whatnot. Although we know this won't happen, some people have a change of heart and go back to their spouses. And legally, their situation could hurt them--there's a lot wrong with their predicament at the moment. 

2. She's his fiancee, BUT as mentioned before, his has obligations to his former family unit before moving forward. Furthermore, engagements are broken ALL OF THE TIME. How does it look for him to prioritize his fiancee before his kids, and then they split up. It makes him look like a shitty dad and, well, he already looks like one as it is.

3. I'll give Noah credit for looking sorry (and annoyed) about breaking the news to her, but if he wants to rebuild his relationship with his kids and gets a good settlement agreement, he has to prioritize them over his fiancee. Alison chose to be totally dependent on Noah--his kids did not. They also did not choice for him to cheat, walk away, and barely spend any time with their dad--something she does most of the time. So, if she actually wants to be with Noah, she has to understand that, despite his shitty moments as a dad, he wants his kids in his life and temporary sacrifices to their relationship must be made.

 

But, again, strict legal sense or not, if something were to happen to Noah before the divorce is finalized, Helen would hold all of the power. Marriage and divorce has a lot of legal shit tied to it as well as complexities. I perceive the marriage as one ending, but I'm also acknowledging that marriage has more commitment to it and is harder to break than an engagement. So many men proposed to my twin, that she her current husband have to convince her that he was serious when he proposed. Being engaged and walking down the aisle are two different things. My other sister said last year, "it's easy to separate now than divorce."

Funny how Noah didn't have an issue with being emasculated until Alison came along--even funnier is that the series basically says that he only fell out of love with her because he met his soulmate. Noah is an ass who shit just "happens" to.

[lvbalgurl]

I don't find Noah, Allison, or Helen particularly likeable.  I probably enjoy Noah's POV the most because he's such a complete and total doucheface that I find it almost comical.  I cannot stand Allison in any of her POVs; she is a woe-is-me martyr.  Everyone is mean to her, everyone victimizes poorpoorAllison.  There is something cold and detached in Helen's depictions that prevent me from finding her sympathetic.  In certain spots, I do, as in her scene with Max last ep (another raging asshole).  But, other times, I just...don't.  OTOH, I effing LOVE Cole.  He's such a mess, but I adore him.  Maybe it's JJ's performances, I'm not sure.  But I've loved him from the start, and I'm rooting for his happiness.  The others, not so much.

 

Re: this episode, I friggin ADORED Jennifer Esposito's character.  SING IT, SISTAH.  Noah is a spoiled effing BRAT.  It's no wonder his children are holy terrors - they are simply younger versions of himself.  (Except Stacy, who must be adopted or something.)  Those children are exactly what he deserves, may they keep on bratting for all eternity.

 

Helen is an utter mess and I sympathized with the folks who had to deal with her crap in her POV (except Noah, Trevor, & Max).  I think this is the first time I've found her mom remotely likeable.  I'd have been okay with her knocking her upside the head and telling her to STFU for five seconds about her failed marriage, because, you know, her HUSBAND LEFT HER, TOO.  Poor Stacy.  Poor sales rep.  Poor random woman in the store, who got called a bitch because...Helen's life is failing apart?  Yeah.  I don't like Helen. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by lvbalgurl

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Affair Has A Bad Heir Day
Sure, Helen's hairdo is a mess at the end of her no-good, terrible day. But the only thing messier is Noah's relationship with the members of his immediate family, who all have the good sense to despise him.

[nara]

Another thing, I don't think the kids are terrible. My heart breaks for them. They're totally confused and they need a therapist asap. 

 

  

I'm pretty sure that his stomach pains are caused by anxiety and stress.  It was back in another episode that Helen had arranged an appointment with a psychiatrist for him, but Noah was pissed off about it because he wanted him to go to a baseball game instead. The fact that Noah doesn't recognize that he's contributed to this and that his son is completely stressed out is yet another reason he shouldn't be caring for these kids.  Selfish asshole.

 

I hope we learn more about why the kids are so screwed up. This was true before the affair too. Wasn't it Martin who pretended to kill himself in the first episode? Is it just that they inherited their father's dramatic writer's mind? Or was there something bad before that trip to the beach? Either way, they seem particularly disturbed, more than the divorce would cause.

 

Very good points.  I should have made myself clear that I based that on their initial first impressions, not what their lives have turned into since.  When she first met Noah he was a teacher and published author who lives in the city and summers with wealthy relatives.  She was a waitress who occassionally did catering jobs who lived in lousy house with her husband, barely making ends meet.  When they met, he was a 'have' and she was definitely a 'have not'.

 

Also, you mention that she has her nursing career to fall back on, but she hasn't.  And unless I'm remembering incorrectly (which is entirely possible because it seems like I barely remember a lot of season 1)  when she and Cole were struggling for money, she opted to become part of the drug scheme instead of going back to nursing.  So, in my opinion, while she does have options, she chooses to ignore them.

She couldn't bring herself to work as a nurse because she hadn't come to terms with her son's death at that time. As evidenced by her ability to go swimming, she has started to deal with it, so perhaps she will be able to return to her old profession.

[CleoCaesar]

I'm slightly uncomfortable with how much I want the kids to die in a fire. Well, maybe not the little one. But definitely Bitchney, the Fake Suicide Tummyache douche, and that turd Trevor. These are seriously nightmares, not children.

At this point Helen should give Noah full custody and run far, far away. At this point them fighting over custody is starting to seem like a plot hole. Who on Earth would want them? (It's worth noting that they were awful even before the affair was revealed.)

Really boring episode, IMO.

[Quiche]

I see what you're saying but being married is still a factor that's trumping what Allison wants because that marriage still involves four children.  The judge issuing an order that the children and Allison shouldn't interact wasn't put in place for Helen's feelings.  It was put in place for the children.  I doubt it's an order that can be sustained but it gives them a reprieve, while still maintaining a relationship with their father.  And the fact that Noah was married when this happened matters because he did leave his current marriage because of another woman. I don't think it's fair to ask them to understand immediately why their family unit was disrupted because "daddy fell in love."

 

I get Allison wanting consideration but she's not being practical.

 

 

It seems like Allison proves more than practical – she is also successful.  Because we know the divorces go through.  Because we know that Noah and Allison marry.

I was strictly talking about the couple relationships – Noah and Allison versus Noah and Helen – not about Noah and his children.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Quiche

[Quiche]

Why does Helen deserve a comeuppance for wanting to keep her kids away from Noah's mistress, especially if Noah has tunnel vision concerning said mistress??? Even the judge found that questionable and ordered her away from the kids. If that was Helen's doing, Noah would've been sure to highlight that.

 

Also, how is she making the situation more difficult by going to court? Whitney was pissed as hell to see Noah living with Alison? You don't think Noah living with his mistress and becoming engaged to her is MORE stressful than going to court to see who stays with who primarily. And it's not as if Helen was trying to deny Noah the opportunity to see his kids. She wants visitation, BUT she also doesn't want Alison around, which is compounded by the fact that her kids emotionally react to Alison.

 

How is Noah's dad a creep? It was pretty clear what his father was saying, "even when things are tough, you don't take the opportunity to fuck someone else." Again, Noah is well within his right to leave, but it was the expense of his family. Many here aren't really confused about what was being said even if they interpreted it differently. Actually, that woman was his sister and, business or not, siblings give unsolicited advice all of the time. If her advice was in agreement with him, Noah would've been all smiles, but since she was honest, he was upset.

 

He's not doing it to "win" the children from Helen, he's doing it because the both of them could get in trouble if she's around. If Noah cares about being a real father, his ids are more important than her. Alison willingly gave up her own life for a married man with four kids. She's no victim here. She allowed herself to be in a position to rely heavily on a man going through a custody battle all while knowing the wife doesn't want her around the kids. Even if Noah doesn't get the full time, Alison being around hurts things regardless. 

 

I'm not understanding why she deserved to be pulled down a peg

 

She's not understanding or perceptive??? Then how was she able to conclude Noah's though process and the motivation behind wanting the kids? Or access his behavior to piece together an accurate picture of what's going on??? They weren't telling him to do shit, but giving him the honest truth. His sister wasn't a know-it-all. When she was one when she was cracking jokes about Helen being snobby??? No, because it was at the expense of Helen, but telling her brother not to further destroy those kids world makes her the worst kind of person???

 

Truth, I'm cackling at the Noah quote.

 

Max honestly put himself in that position. Like, dude, she is in the process of getting a divorce and because she wants to end things you accuse her of no one being "good enough?" He's probably still pissed the she chose Noah over him. And how could Noah not being "good enough" for her, in her opinion, if she sent 20 years with him and is upset about the divorce. If she was really this man eater that he implied, then she would've left.

 

The fact that they had to drive around and ended up in a motel PROVES why the kids SHOULD be with Helen and why he doesn't have them as much. I agree that custody should be split for Helen's sanity. Noah doesn't even have his shit together to be fighting for split custody let alone FULL custody.

 

Some are sympathetic to Helen, but that doesn't equate to likable. In Helen's POV, we saw her willingly take drugs, drink alcohol, drive under the influence, park illegally, and then hit another car as she tried out hide her drugs. That's OWNING her shit. Like, yeah, she was mopey and shit, but she didn't try to sugarcoat her actions and didn't make herself the victim. Noah does all of this self centered shit, but wants a pat on the ass for hurting people and only thinking of himself. 

 

Why does Helen deserve her comeuppance…

1 – she's not helping her children adjust to the reality that now their father is with someone new.

2 – and she's acting out of spite.

Helen is making the situation more difficult because by going to court, she has turned it into an adversarial situation wherein she is using the children against Noah.

It is not for Helen to determine that Allison should not be around her children with Noah.  Allison is now officially Noah's future wife.

Noah's dad comes off as a creep because he does not talk in a loving or understanding way with his son, but in a hostile manner.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Quiche

[Quiche]

RE: Being married cancelling out other things.

 

Legally, I believe it does. 

 

But, there are three things we must consider: 

 

1. They are  both still married--we know how the separation is going for Noah, but what about Alison? Are they talking to lawyers, going through mediation, etc? She wants consideration, but only one of them are ACTIVELY going through the divorce process. Even then, they still have obligations to their spouse about how to handle said separation and sorting through shared shit and whatnot. Although we know this won't happen, some people have a change of heart and go back to their spouses. And legally, their situation could hurt them--there's a lot wrong with their predicament at the moment. 

2. She's his fiancee, BUT as mentioned before, his has obligations to his former family unit before moving forward. Furthermore, engagements are broken ALL OF THE TIME. How does it look for him to prioritize his fiancee before his kids, and then they split up. It makes him look like a shitty dad and, well, he already looks like one as it is.

3. I'll give Noah credit for looking sorry (and annoyed) about breaking the news to her, but if he wants to rebuild his relationship with his kids and gets a good settlement agreement, he has to prioritize them over his fiancee. Alison chose to be totally dependent on Noah--his kids did not. They also did not choice for him to cheat, walk away, and barely spend any time with their dad--something she does most of the time. So, if she actually wants to be with Noah, she has to understand that, despite his shitty moments as a dad, he wants his kids in his life and temporary sacrifices to their relationship must be made.

 

But, again, strict legal sense or not, if something were to happen to Noah before the divorce is finalized, Helen would hold all of the power. Marriage and divorce has a lot of legal shit tied to it as well as complexities. I perceive the marriage as one ending, but I'm also acknowledging that marriage has more commitment to it and is harder to break than an engagement. So many men proposed to my twin, that she her current husband have to convince her that he was serious when he proposed. Being engaged and walking down the aisle are two different things. My other sister said last year, "it's easy to separate now than divorce."

Funny how Noah didn't have an issue with being emasculated until Alison came along--even funnier is that the series basically says that he only fell out of love with her because he met his soulmate. Noah is an ass who shit just "happens" to.

 

It is rather a moot point.  We know that both Noah and Allison are soon divorced and that they marry each other.

I was strictly speaking in terms of Noah's relationship with Helen, which is different from his relationship with his children.

Allison will be Noah's wife and they will have a child together.  We already know the end result.  What we are watching is how Allison achieves this end result.  She is fighting for her place in her fiancé's life.  It is often true that the woman who fights for the man, gets the man.

In practical terms, Noah no longer has any obligations toward Helen, even at this predivorce point of the story.  He is not supporting her financially.  They are not friends sharing their problems.  Helen, in very realistic terms, is a woman alone just waiting for the final divorce decree (whether she faces up to that fact or not).  Noah has already moved on with another woman.  That doesn't cancel his relationship with his children.

Noah does not owe his children his entire life or his future.

But he has made a commitment to Allison, which is a different commitment from the commitment he made by having children.  He doesn't stop being their father just because he has divorced Helen.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Quiche

[scrb]

Helen got too sympathetic an episode.

 

Where was the snarking, browbeating woman who chose Noah because he wouldn't dare cheat on her?

 

Hard to believe she took the high road with Max.  Would be more characteristic to tear him a new asshole when the asshole deserves it, yet she's saying it's going too fast and she feels uncomfortable?

[Nanrad]

Why does Helen deserve her comeuppance…

1 – she's not helping her children adjust to the reality that now their father is with someone new.

2 – and she's acting out of spite.

Helen is making the situation more difficult because by going to court, she has turned it into an adversarial situation wherein she is using the children against Noah.

It is not for Helen to determine that Allison should not be around her children with Noah.  Allison is now officially Noah's future wife.

Noah's dad comes off as a creep because he does not talk in a loving or understanding way with his son, but in a hostile manner.

1. It's not Helen's place to help her kids adjust to their dad being with someone new; it's her place to help them adjust to divorce. She doesn't live in the future, so she doesn't have access to the flash forward clips. At the same time, she's not actively pitting her kids against Alison either. Helen seriously has no responsibility to help her ex husband and his fiancee by getting the kids to adjust. All she really has to do is explain that parents date other people when they split, but considering they know Alison is the reason for the split, that's a tough crowd regardless. She gets cheated on and now it's her responsibility to convince the kids to welcome the woman who helped destroy her marriage. lol. 

 

2. Why did she go to court? Because Alison is living with him and that is the one thing she asked of him. Now, we can say it's unfair, but again, Helen doesn't live in the future. She doesn't know they will get married and have a child, so her request wasn't unreasonable. Noah turned it into an adversarial situation when he lied about where Alison was staying and tried to have his daughter lie to Helen about his living situation. Again, she's not denying his visitation, but split custody.

 

FUTURE wife--not current. Helen is assessing the situation in the moment. If she knew the future, she wouldn't be where she is now. In a divorce proceeding as well as a custody case, which Alison plays a part of, Helen's opinion does have some ground, especially the events surround Noah leaving.

 

Noah's dad doesn't talk in a loving or understanding way because they have a strained relationship and he doesn't understand why his son would behave such a way, as a matter of fact, most people in the series don't. Also, not all parent talk in loving and understanding ways, especially if they are upset with you. Hostile doesn't equal creep, which is more weird, odd, and uncomfortable. 

 

It is rather a moot point.  We know that both Noah and Allison are soon divorced and that they marry each other.

I was strictly speaking in terms of Noah's relationship with Helen, which is different from his relationship with his children.

Allison will be Noah's wife and they will have a child together.  We already know the end result.  What we are watching is how Allison achieves this end result.  She is fighting for her place in her fiancé's life.  It is often true that the woman who fights for the man, gets the man.

In practical terms, Noah no longer has any obligations toward Helen, even at this predivorce point of the story.  He is not supporting her financially.  They are not friends sharing their problems.  Helen, in very realistic terms, is a woman alone just waiting for the final divorce decree (whether she faces up to that fact or not).  Noah has already moved on with another woman.  That doesn't cancel his relationship with his children.

Noah does not owe his children his entire life or his future.

But he has made a commitment to Allison, which is a different commitment from the commitment he made by having children.  He doesn't stop being their father just because he has divorced Helen.

And Noah made a commitment to Helen, which he broke, right??? That's my point, commitments can be broken. But, you cannot judge a character's present actions past off what we see in the future--they don't know what they future holds. And the reason their situation is so sticky is because Alison nor Noah believe they are obligated to treat anyone with decency after ripping their lives apart. 

 

I didn't say he stopped being their father once he divorced Helen, I'm saying that his behavior, especially with Alison, impacts his custody ruling. If he cares about being a good father, he would slow things down with Alison to figure things out. Just like with Helen, he and Alison could divorce, but guess what, his kids are still his kids. Noah understands this--after Alison was ordered to stay away--which is why he can't prioritized his commitment to her over them. 

 

I don't know about the woman who fights for her man, gets her man, BUT Alison has a place, she just has to wait a little longer so their relationship doesn't bite Noah on the ass as a parent. Every since they met, more times than not, she has come first OVER his kids. How much of a place does she need? Noah moved on, but it doesn't mean that he can't treat Helen with basic respect and consideration of her feelings, which he hasn't. It's all about him. Someone said that Helen looks smug in Noah's POV, no she looks LOST. She is confused. Noah's moved on with his life, but he rather see her as a bitch because she's taking the divorce hard and not making things easy for him rather than saying, "Hey, I ripped out my ex wife's heart and maybe I need to understand this is a pretty devastating time for her."

 

People fight over money, property, kids, etc because they are hurting, unless they really need material things or feel the kids are best off with them, they fight like hell about everything because divorce fucking sucks when your spouse not only cheats, but leaves for another person (they cheated with).

[Ailianna]

I really don't feel like "poor Helen" in this episode at all. She got drunk and high, then drove through Manhattan where she could have hit or killed people then picked up her children and could have seriously hurt them. Reversing like that with the kids unbuckled, she could have killed them or a pedestrian behind her. She gets no sympathy or poor Helen for her behavior. Noah cheating on her, isn't illegal or can kill someone, what Helen did could. She's worse than him for her behavior this episode.

 

 

 

How is it that when Helen makes mistakes, she "owns" it in her POV  and it's likeable and yet when the same thing happens to Noah it is proof of how shitty he is? Why are the two subjected to different standards? This is not a rhetorical question, I really want to understand. As for me, I think Helen clearly made a mistake and doesn't deserve the custody punishment Noah was contemplating. Noah has had his fair share of mistakes, for some of which I've given him the benefit of the doubt too. Come to think of it, Alison and Cole too. I try to subject them to a roughly similar (forgiving) standard.

 

 

 

Let's not forget the fact that Helen was indeed high as a kite when she got behind the driver's seat with her children in the car.

 

Let's not forget that she backed up, not checking on her children, and as a result her little girl has a bruised bump on her head.  

 

How many times should that happen?

 

 

 

Even if she was drunk and stoned it did not make me like Helen less or like Noah and Allison one iota more. Don't get me wrong I am not condoning driving your kids around while shit faced. But asshat was drinking beer and whiskey before he drug the kids out of his sisters house when he got all pissy. Am glad to see what's his name gone, he was kind of stalker creepy with Helen.

 

 

 

 

Some are sympathetic to Helen, but that doesn't equate to likable. In Helen's POV, we saw her willingly take drugs, drink alcohol, drive under the influence, park illegally, and then hit another car as she tried out hide her drugs. That's OWNING her shit. Like, yeah, she was mopey and shit, but she didn't try to sugarcoat her actions and didn't make herself the victim. Noah does all of this self centered shit, but wants a pat on the ass for hurting people and only thinking of himself. 

I don't know that we can say anything about how Helen is handling her crime (not just a mistake, but a dangerous crime, and she's damn lucky no one was hurt worse) because from her POV, she ended up in an unmarked car with Noah yelling at her, but no real indication of what happened after nor of how she would handle/deal with this once she sobers up. 

 

I hope that she is able to be more mature and realize that even when she thought she had the day "off" parenting (and she knew what day the court hearing was, so she knew what day it was until after she got drunk/high--so she was using when she should have realized that she had to pick up the kids), she still has to be responsible for what happened while they were in her care.

 

And I saw some comments about how she obviously usually doesn't have Stacey without her seatbelt, and so on. That's part of the danger of driving while drunk and/or high.  Your brain doesn't work very well.  You make bad decisions.  You forget things, like that you sent your young daughter into the back of the minivan to move a rocket, because you couldn't see behind you, and then slam backwards out of a handicapped spot you had no business being in in the first place.  If there hadn't been a car to hit in the parking lot, there's no reason to think she would have remembered what was going on and stopped and gotten Stacey back in her seat.  Helen was clearly distracted by the older gentleman, and his request that she move out of the handicapped spot, and was annoyed that she was caught doing something she knew she shouldn't have (the parking space).  And due to her substance misuse, that's all the room for thought she had left in her brain.  Frankly, she got damn lucky, and an arrest for a DWI is hopefully a wake up call.  She's been feeling pretty sorry for herself lately too, after all. 

 

And those who decided Trevor was a monster because he wanted his mom to show the police man there was nothing wrong in her purse--he's a kid.  He said to Helen if there was nothing in the bag, just show him.  He's not really of an age to be discussing civil rights issues, and in his mind, it's right to cooperate with authority, and just show you didn't do anything wrong.  He's had a rough day.  His mom forgot him and his little sister.  Then she showed up acting weird, and caused a collision in which his little sister was hurt, and then she starts arguing with the police and acting guilty.  I think he was just trying to get things to make sense.  Of course his mom wasn't hiding anything, she's not like that, just show him there's nothing in there, and we can all be ok again.  He didn't handle it well, but he's what?  10?  He did ok under the circumstances.

[Rancide]

I'm slightly uncomfortable with how much I want the kids to die in a fire. Well, maybe not the little one. But definitely Bitchney, the Fake Suicide Tummyache douche, and that turd Trevor. These are seriously nightmares, not children.

 

I always assume the kids seem like such nightmares because we're only seeing them from the perspective of their overwhelmed and/or emotionally unstable parent(s).  I doubt Tummyache was actually writhing on the floor in pain.  A lot of normal, responsible parents have a hard time maintaining perspective when potential medical situations with their kids are involved.  Clueless Noah with zero problem solving skills shares the sense of panic but lacks any actual parenting skills that would teach him what to do about it.  Including lacking awareness of the fact that a kid that age is capable of a) checking his own appendix, b) knowing the difference between being dangerously ill or just suffering from gas, c) monitoring his own health situation with supervision, etc.

 

I feel like the kids are "whining" and "backtalking" all the time because Noah is so self-absorbed that any amount of normal kid-like imperfection that intrudes on his life is perceived by him as a huge, obnoxious, outrageous deal.

 

They're usually less obnoxious in Helen's version, except for the oldest, but teenage mother/daughter crap gets under everyone's skin, and Helen, too, is starting to be in over her head.

[cardigirl]

I am really enjoying this discussion about the show and the characters. I think it speaks to how well done the writing and the acting have been. The show is opening up a dialogue about what relationships are and how can we navigate them. I doubt that the show will offer any real answers, but to provoke so many different points of view and varied responses to the themes and characters is a sign of excellence, in my opinion.

Thanks to everyone for jumping in. I may agree or disagree with you based on my life's experiences, but you all have given me lots of food for thought.

[grumpypanda]

I don't know that we can say anything about how Helen is handling her crime (not just a mistake, but a dangerous crime, and she's damn lucky no one was hurt worse) because from her POV, she ended up in an unmarked car with Noah yelling at her, but no real indication of what happened after nor of how she would handle/deal with this once she sobers up.

I hope that she is able to be more mature and realize that even when she thought she had the day "off" parenting (and she knew what day the court hearing was, so she knew what day it was until after she got drunk/high--so she was using when she should have realized that she had to pick up the kids), she still has to be responsible for what happened while they were in her care.

And I saw some comments about how she obviously usually doesn't have Stacey without her seatbelt, and so on. That's part of the danger of driving while drunk and/or high. Your brain doesn't work very well. You make bad decisions. You forget things, like that you sent your young daughter into the back of the minivan to move a rocket, because you couldn't see behind you, and then slam backwards out of a handicapped spot you had no business being in in the first place. If there hadn't been a car to hit in the parking lot, there's no reason to think she would have remembered what was going on and stopped and gotten Stacey back in her seat. Helen was clearly distracted by the older gentleman, and his request that she move out of the handicapped spot, and was annoyed that she was caught doing something she knew she shouldn't have (the parking space). And due to her substance misuse, that's all the room for thought she had left in her brain. Frankly, she got damn lucky, and an arrest for a DWI is hopefully a wake up call. She's been feeling pretty sorry for herself lately too, after all.

And those who decided Trevor was a monster because he wanted his mom to show the police man there was nothing wrong in her purse--he's a kid. He said to Helen if there was nothing in the bag, just show him. He's not really of an age to be discussing civil rights issues, and in his mind, it's right to cooperate with authority, and just show you didn't do anything wrong. He's had a rough day. His mom forgot him and his little sister. Then she showed up acting weird, and caused a collision in which his little sister was hurt, and then she starts arguing with the police and acting guilty. I think he was just trying to get things to make sense. Of course his mom wasn't hiding anything, she's not like that, just show him there's nothing in there, and we can all be ok again. He didn't handle it well, but he's what? 10? He did ok under the circumstances.

I made a comment about Stacy and her seatbelt. I wasn't trying to excuse Helen's behavior but my point was that Helen is usually a good mother and her behavior that day wasn't normal. I just don't think one stupid mistake should cancel out the fact that from everything we've seen Helen normally appears to be a responsible parent. I know it's sounds like I'm excusing her behavior but she's only human and everyone makes stupid mistakes once in awhile (even illegal mistakes.)

I don't think for one second that Helen would have gotten drunk and stoned if she knew that she had to pick the kids up. She panicked when she realized that she mixed up days and the kids were stranded at camp. She didn't have anyone else to get them so she was in a no win situation. The best thing she could have done was take a cab but she was still high so either way she was screwed. Yes, Helen messed up big time and she will end up paying dearly for her mistake. No doubt that Noah's attorney will use this as a way to get more money out of her.

I still stand by my statement that Trevor is an asshole. I don't care if he's only ten, when your parent is talking to a police officer, you sit down and shut up. He's old enough to know basic respect. All of the kids except for Stacy are horribly behaved and talk to their parents like crap. My kids are no angels but they have never acted like these brats.

Edited October 27, 2015 by grumpypanda

[penelope79]

For me, this has been the best episode so far (s1 included) and I think I know why: as far as I remember, it's the first time where the two versions overall collide and don't look like the characters are crazy enough to remember completely different things; moments that, in some cases, only occured in one of the two versions, making the whole process of the suspension of disbelief a little bit hard by my side.

 

For instance, in the courtroom scenes, I can buy that both versions actually happened in different moments. Not only Noah and Helen were dressed the same, even their mood was similar. And the same goes for the scene where Noah reached his children after Helen's accident: their exchange, the main facts were essentially the same in both.

The slight differences were enjoyable and useful and were not inadvertenly suggesting that all characters have been allucinating since the pilot (I'm exaggerating here, of course, but you get my point). I think they were useful because they had a purpose: showing each character's feelings in their perspective, while the facts were still facts. So Noah, who was probably very worried when he arrived to his children's school, saw Stacy's forehead bleeding, while Helen saw only a huge bump. We don't know what Stacey really had and it doesn't matter in the end, but we know that her conditions were telling of her parents' feelings in that very moment: Noah was preoccupied, Helen felt guilty and maybe her mind was trying to downsize what happened (granted, the drugs probably played a part).

At the same time, I found interesting that while back at home with the kids, Noah saw the garment on the stairs as a lace bra, the flowers as roses and two glasses and one bottle of wine on the chimney, in the master bedroom. Because we already watched Helen's version, we know that on the stairs there was only a sock, that Max didn't bring roses and that the mess in the bedroom was all on Helen, who was already stoned and drunk. Since Noah doesn't know what we do, I can see why he completely misinterpreted the scene. At the very least, it makes sense.

 

I feel like they should've taken this route since the beginning of the show, the whole narration would've been more organic. Instead, I just realized that when the two stories completely diverge, I enjoy the show less.

 

 

That's what always gets me about Noah. That even in his own memories, no one seems to like him other than Alison.

 

I agree and maybe I'm alone here but I guess this is the reason why I feel like Noah is a little more reliable, as a narrator, than the other characters.

 

On a side note, as soon as I saw the actor playing Noah's father, for a couple of seconds I was sure he was about to ring a bell placed on his wheelchair in order to "talk"... and then I realized I was NOT watching Breaking Bad! :D

Edited October 27, 2015 by penelope79

[Quiche]

1. It's not Helen's place to help her kids adjust to their dad being with someone new; it's her place to help them adjust to divorce. She doesn't live in the future, so she doesn't have access to the flash forward clips. At the same time, she's not actively pitting her kids against Alison either. Helen seriously has no responsibility to help her ex husband and his fiancee by getting the kids to adjust. All she really has to do is explain that parents date other people when they split, but considering they know Alison is the reason for the split, that's a tough crowd regardless. She gets cheated on and now it's her responsibility to convince the kids to welcome the woman who helped destroy her marriage. lol. 

 

2. Why did she go to court? Because Alison is living with him and that is the one thing she asked of him. Now, we can say it's unfair, but again, Helen doesn't live in the future. She doesn't know they will get married and have a child, so her request wasn't unreasonable. Noah turned it into an adversarial situation when he lied about where Alison was staying and tried to have his daughter lie to Helen about his living situation. Again, she's not denying his visitation, but split custody.

 

FUTURE wife--not current. Helen is assessing the situation in the moment. If she knew the future, she wouldn't be where she is now. In a divorce proceeding as well as a custody case, which Alison plays a part of, Helen's opinion does have some ground, especially the events surround Noah leaving.

 

Noah's dad doesn't talk in a loving or understanding way because they have a strained relationship and he doesn't understand why his son would behave such a way, as a matter of fact, most people in the series don't. Also, not all parent talk in loving and understanding ways, especially if they are upset with you. Hostile doesn't equal creep, which is more weird, odd, and uncomfortable. 

 

And Noah made a commitment to Helen, which he broke, right??? That's my point, commitments can be broken. But, you cannot judge a character's present actions past off what we see in the future--they don't know what they future holds. And the reason their situation is so sticky is because Alison nor Noah believe they are obligated to treat anyone with decency after ripping their lives apart. 

 

I didn't say he stopped being their father once he divorced Helen, I'm saying that his behavior, especially with Alison, impacts his custody ruling. If he cares about being a good father, he would slow things down with Alison to figure things out. Just like with Helen, he and Alison could divorce, but guess what, his kids are still his kids. Noah understands this--after Alison was ordered to stay away--which is why he can't prioritized his commitment to her over them. 

 

I don't know about the woman who fights for her man, gets her man, BUT Alison has a place, she just has to wait a little longer so their relationship doesn't bite Noah on the ass as a parent. Every since they met, more times than not, she has come first OVER his kids. How much of a place does she need? Noah moved on, but it doesn't mean that he can't treat Helen with basic respect and consideration of her feelings, which he hasn't. It's all about him. Someone said that Helen looks smug in Noah's POV, no she looks LOST. She is confused. Noah's moved on with his life, but he rather see her as a bitch because she's taking the divorce hard and not making things easy for him rather than saying, "Hey, I ripped out my ex wife's heart and maybe I need to understand this is a pretty devastating time for her."

 

People fight over money, property, kids, etc because they are hurting, unless they really need material things or feel the kids are best off with them, they fight like hell about everything because divorce fucking sucks when your spouse not only cheats, but leaves for another person (they cheated with).

 

I would argue that it is not Helen's place as a mother to make the situation worse for children.  She did not need to go to court.  The only reason why she went to court was to keep Allison away from her children.

My point in bringing up the future is not that I expect characters to know it, but because we see that Allison and Noah do end up together.  Which means that Allison is doing something right and not being unpractical.

I do agree that Noah and his father have a strained relationship.  That is usually the father's fault with men of that generation whose egos were so big that they always have to hold up how much better they are than their sons.

We know that Noah avoids his father and has avoided him for a long time.  There's a reason for that.

I'm not sure that Noah should let his children impact his relationship with Allison.  The future spouse is a partner while the children are not.  Two categorically different relationships.  I would not wait for a man who puts me aside like this.  Noah needs to find a different way.

Which brings me back to a point I made earlier that Noah is not suited for full custody.  It is not fair to anyone.  He is not even suited for shared custody.  He doesn't have the money.  He doesn't have the apartment.  And children shouldn't have to move week by week to a different place to live – they should stay with Helen and not be uprooted in such a way on a constant basis.  Noah can have visitation and vacations with his children.

Allison doesn't have to do anything.  She doesn't have to wait around for Noah and she would be a fool if she did.  If he so quickly backs out of his living situation with her after months of living together, then he is not worthwhile.  But I suspect since we already know the end result that Allison has far more patience than I do.

It is precisely when people are fighting over everything that they lose things.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Quiche

[CleoCaesar]

Which brings me back to a point I made earlier that Noah is not suited for full custody.  It is not fair to anyone.  He is not even suited for shared custody.  He doesn't have the money.  He doesn't have the apartment.  And children shouldn't have to move week by week to a different place to live – they should stay with Helen and not be uprooted in such a way on a constant basis.  Noah can have visitation and vacations with his children.

Totally agree. It's the height of entitlement to force the kids out of their home just because HE wants it. They need stability, the comfort of their home/neighborhood/school/friends. Not being shuttled back and forth because of the selfishness of one of their parents. Noah is such a selfish dick.

(Also, can people please stop quoting entire posts in replies? It clogs up the thread and is a pain to scroll through on mobile devices. Thanks!)

[Skeeter22]

It isn't Helen's fault they went to court. Noah was lying in mediation. You can't negotiate with someone in bad faith. That's all on Noah. If this were any other kind of legal proceedings, no one would blame the party who was negotiating in good faith taking the case to court. It's pretty absurd. When you decieve someone, they can't trust you. Noah had his reasons for all the deception, but he doesn't get to avoid the consequences.

[blixie]

There is literally nothing Helen could do that would make me unsympathetic towards her: everyone in her life is an asshole, her mother, her father, her husband, her kids, and she's certainly not perfect, but they all seem so much worse. OH wait, her employee is nice and concerned about her. Helen is allowed to fall apart and fuck up, but she also has to contend with the consequences of that, hopefully it leads to her and Noah just working it out in terms of  her relenting on the Allison issue which while emotionally understandable,  does make her look gross and petty, and Noah conceding primary custody to Helen.

 

I get why she broke things off with Max, but gurl he was the only person in your life who really put you first, and vacation in Brazil is exactly the thing you need, peace the fuck out on these assholes and find your joy woman. I did love that Max was her back up side bitch, but unlike Edgar on You're the Worst, he did not LIKE it. Hee.

 

I thought the edible effects were WAY overplayed hallucinating on pot is ATYPICAL, even when taken in large powerful doses.

 

Noah continues to suck, and I love his sister for only giving him her honest opinion when he ASKED for it. 

[Quiche]

It isn't Helen's fault they went to court. Noah was lying in mediation. You can't negotiate with someone in bad faith. That's all on Noah. If this were any other kind of legal proceedings, no one would blame the party who was negotiating in good faith taking the case to court. It's pretty absurd. When you decieve someone, they can't trust you. Noah had his reasons for all the deception, but he doesn't get to avoid the consequences.

 

Yes, Noah was wrong to lie.  However, Helen was wrong to demand that the children be kept away from Allison.  Helen could've overlooked the lie and continued with the mediation.

Don't the children get a choice in this matter?  I thought the children, nowadays, are consulted regarding who they would prefer to live with.

Regarding Max…

He's a prick!  A night of bad sex amounts to nothing.  He and the Noah and Allison, and when he got the chance he thought he would get some of their happiness.

Max was rushing Helen and not considering her needs, just what he wanted and then he could redefine it as though he was helping her.

Helen is well rid of him.

[Milburn Stone]

For me, this has been the best episode so far (s1 included) and I think I know why: as far as I remember, it's the first time where the two versions overall collide and don't look like the characters are crazy enough to remember completely different things...

 

I hear you, but as I've said in different words re other episodes: When I realize how hard it is for me to recount in detail what happened to me yesterday, I realize that two people having radically different memories is actually plausible. Not only plausible, but the only plausible thing. (Despite two thousand years of drama that says otherwise.) The show makes a convincing case that two people having similar memories is the thing that's wildly implausible.

[Skeeter22]

Yes, Noah was wrong to lie.  However, Helen was wrong to demand that the children be kept away from Allison.  Helen could've overlooked the lie and continued with the mediation.

Don't the children get a choice in this matter?  I thought the children, nowadays, are consulted regarding who they would prefer to live with.

Since one of the children ratted Noah out, maybe they are getting a say. Noah did try to emotionally blackmail Whitney into lying for him about Allison. That should raise some serious red flags about Noah' s priorities.

[scrb]

Those kids were horrible in the first episode or one of the early episodes.

 

So that's one thing in Noah's favor, that he doesn't want to totally get out of that household, cut ties.  Some men do that.

 

As for Max's gift, he wasn't coming just to comfort Helen, he wanted an afternoon fuck.

[lovinbob]

Another thing, I don't think the kids are terrible. My heart breaks for them. They're totally confused and they need a therapist asap.

I don't hate the kids either. I feel terrible for them. Kids are, by nature, totally self-centered. It's developmentally appropriate for them to be that way. We, as adults, are capable of seeing the bigger picture and empathizing with others. Ultimately, it's our job to help our kids grow into people who are able to look beyond themselves. The sense that I have is that Helen and Noah have not been holding up their end of the bargain even before the affair.  I don't think it's projecting too much to imagine that Helen and Noah were distracted, self-involved parents before: Whitney was indulged by everyone; perhaps Martin was ignored and therefore sought attention (like in that awful suicide stunt).

 

(Also, let's not forget that it was Noah's memory that produced Martin's stunt. Who knows what actually happened? Maybe he really did attempt suicide, Noah saved him, but they just wanted to spare each other the embarrassment and the hassle of initiating the psychiatric help Martin would need, so they decided--or Noah did-- it was a stunt rather than a sincere attempt. Noah seems to have a thing about seeking professional help and about emotional problems in general.)

I don't know what to think of Trevor doing that to his mom. It really didn't ring true to me that he'd do that to her purse in front of a cop no less. 

 

I don't know. First off, I don't think Trevor is the monster so many people do. I think he is a little, little kid whose parents are letting him down big time, in big and little ways. My memories of his moments of "acting out" are, to me, the understandable reactions of a hurt child. (I'm sure there are things he's done that I'm not recalling right now that might change my perspective, but for the moment, I don't blame him a bit.) In terms of the moment with the cop: I could see my son doing something like that. He was embarrassed from the start, that his mom was an hour late. (The worst feeling in the world for a kid.) Then his mom is floundering around, causing an accident, hurting his sister, arguing with a cop--not to mention wearing foil in her hair!-- in front of all these other people including the camp counselor, whom he probably looks up to. Those kids just wanted to get the fuck outta there and mom was just perpetuating the embarrassment! And she's his MOM--I'm sure he didn't think she had anything to hide.

 

For me, this has been the best episode so far (s1 included) and I think I know why: as far as I remember, it's the first time where the two versions overall collide and don't look like the characters are crazy enough to remember completely different things; moments that, in some cases, only occured in one of the two versions, making the whole process of the suspension of disbelief a little bit hard by my side.

...

I feel like they should've taken this route since the beginning of the show, the whole narration would've been more organic. Instead, I just realized that when the two stories completely diverge, I enjoy the show less.

Agreed.

Edited October 27, 2015 by lovinbob

[truthaboutluv]

Honestly, I don't hate Martin. I feel really sorry for the kid. Even if the fake suicide attempt was real, to me that was a clear cry for help because normal people don't do that. Then I was sure something would be exposed with how much he was adamant he didn't want to go to the grandparents and how he looked like he wanted to do anything to not be there - such as sleeping in Cole's family's barn.

 

And then there was his releasing the horse which is when Cole told Noah that he might want to get Martin some help and someone to talk to because something was clearly going on with him. And then there was the school situation that was kept fairly vague. Now we have the stress stomach aches. The kid just seems an emotional and mental wreck and I feel like we may be leading to a very real suicide or attempted suicide. So I don't hate Martin, I feel sorry for him. 

[Nanrad]

I would argue that it is not Helen's place as a mother to make the situation worse for children.  She did not need to go to court.  The only reason why she went to court was to keep Allison away from her children.

My point in bringing up the future is not that I expect characters to know it, but because we see that Allison and Noah do end up together.  Which means that Allison is doing something right and not being unpractical.

I do agree that Noah and his father have a strained relationship.  That is usually the father's fault with men of that generation whose egos were so big that they always have to hold up how much better they are than their sons.

We know that Noah avoids his father and has avoided him for a long time.  There's a reason for that.

I'm not sure that Noah should let his children impact his relationship with Allison.  The future spouse is a partner while the children are not.  Two categorically different relationships.  I would not wait for a man who puts me aside like this.  Noah needs to find a different way.

 If he so quickly backs out of his living situation with her after months of living together, then he is not worthwhile.  But I suspect since we already know the end result that Allison has far more patience than I do.

It is precisely when people are fighting over everything that they lose things.

How is she making things worse for the kids by keeping Alison away? As someone else mentioned, Noah negotiated in bad faith.

 

TBH, we don't know if Alison did anything right and/or isn't be unpractical. Noah wants to be with her regardless, so she doesn't have to do much of anything, especially when Noah thinks she thinks he's the greatest thing evah. 

 

I didn't take that away from the discussion, but rather, in that moment he made a better decision, in his opinion. Yeah, there's a reason Noah avoided his father, but we don't know it and we don't know that the father was in the wrong either.

 

If Noah was already divorced and things were stable inches life, I'd agree with you. But, since Alison helped tear his life apart, his in a custody battle, and his kids aren't coping well, Alison isn't being "put aside." Alison may be his future partner, but unless he wants a strained relationship with his kids like he has with his own father, he'd consider them first. At the end of the day, they haven't known each other that long. Furthermore, Noah has proven to be not worthwhile even before telling her they couldn't move in together and with how he's put his kids on the back burner for her. But, because he prioritizes his kids first so he gets a favorable custody settlement, he's not worth it. This is seriously one of the few things he's done right and it's still wrong. lol

 

Right, but that all stems when people only think of themselves.

[Boundary]

Since one of the children ratted Noah out, maybe they are getting a say. Noah did try to emotionally blackmail Whitney into lying for him about Allison. That should raise some serious red flags about Noah' s priorities.

 

Whitney hates everyone except Scotty. She might have even tolerated Alison if only she'd  helped her get Scotty's number, personally I'd discount her histrionics. Having said that, it's obvious Alison has little chance with those kids - better to stay away from them. But should the kids' influence extend to keeping her away from her man? I don't think so. 

[Quiche]

How is she making things worse for the kids by keeping Alison away? As someone else mentioned, Noah negotiated in bad faith.

 

TBH, we don't know if Alison did anything right and/or isn't be unpractical. Noah wants to be with her regardless, so she doesn't have to do much of anything, especially when Noah thinks she thinks he's the greatest thing evah. 

 

I didn't take that away from the discussion, but rather, in that moment he made a better decision, in his opinion. Yeah, there's a reason Noah avoided his father, but we don't know it and we don't know that the father was in the wrong either.

 

If Noah was already divorced and things were stable inches life, I'd agree with you. But, since Alison helped tear his life apart, his in a custody battle, and his kids aren't coping well, Alison isn't being "put aside." Alison may be his future partner, but unless he wants a strained relationship with his kids like he has with his own father, he'd consider them first. At the end of the day, they haven't known each other that long. Furthermore, Noah has proven to be not worthwhile even before telling her they couldn't move in together and with how he's put his kids on the back burner for her. But, because he prioritizes his kids first so he gets a favorable custody settlement, he's not worth it. This is seriously one of the few things he's done right and it's still wrong. lol

 

Right, but that all stems when people only think of themselves.

 

Allison is now a fact of Noah's existence.  He's pretty serious about her.  Yes, he lied about it.  But Helen soon learned from her daughter that Noah and Allison are now engaged and living together.  That means Allison is a fixed feature in Noah's life.  Allison will be the children's stepmother.

It is through hostility, and hostility alone, that Helen is trying to prevent Allison from being near her children.  The fact that Noah lied does not change this.

Whitney hates everyone except Scotty. She might have even tolerated Alison if only she'd  helped her get Scotty's number, personally I'd discount her histrionics. Having said that, it's obvious Alison has little chance with those kids - better to stay away from them. But should the kids' influence extend to keeping her away from her man? I don't think so. 

 

I agree.  It seems to be the practice in our society that the spouse comes first ahead of the children.  The children will grow up and make their own lives.  The marriage however is supposed to endure.

[lvbalgurl]

Allison is now a fact of Noah's existence.  He's pretty serious about her.  Yes, he lied about it.  But Helen soon learned from her daughter that Noah and Allison are now engaged and living together.  That means Allison is a fixed feature in Noah's life.  Allison will be the children's stepmother.

It is through hostility, and hostility alone, that Helen is trying to prevent Allison from being near her children.  The fact that Noah lied does not change this.

 

I agree.  Helen is ONLY doing this because she's hurt and angry that Noah cheated and left her.  Allison has not done anything to traumatize the children; there's no real reason there needs to be a court order barring her from having contact with them.  Helen is not being reasonable.  She's not putting the best interests of the children first, she's allowing herself to be guided by the devastation she's feeling over her failed marriage.

 

Both Noah and Helen are trying to stick it to each other.  If they were thinking of the children, they would listen to that judge, and figure out an amicable custodial agreement out of court.  And, yes, that would involve Allison being around them because she is Noah's live-in fiancée. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by lvbalgurl

[Quiche]

I agree.  Helen is ONLY doing this because she's hurt and angry that Noah cheated and left her.  Allison has not done anything to traumatize the children; there's no real reason there needs to be a court order barring her from having contact with them.  Helen is not being reasonable.  She's not putting the best interests of the children first, she's allowing herself to be guided by the devastation she's feeling over her failed marriage.

 

Both Noah and Helen are trying to stick it to each other.  If they were thinking of the children, they would listen to that judge, and figure out an amicable custodial agreement out of court.  And, yes, that would involve Allison being around them because she is Noah's live-in fiancée. 

 

I agree.  I don't want to blame Helen.  Her situation is sad.  In comparison, except for money, Noah's situation is pretty good.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Quiche

[izabella]

Whitney hates everyone except Scotty. She might have even tolerated Alison if only she'd  helped her get Scotty's number, personally I'd discount her histrionics. Having said that, it's obvious Alison has little chance with those kids - better to stay away from them. But should the kids' influence extend to keeping her away from her man? I don't think so. 

 

I don't think anyone is trying to keep Allison away from Noah.  Not the judge, not Helen.  Helen wants Allison away from her kids right now, and the judge agrees since they are still figuring out custody and working through a divorce.  The judge didn't say Noah couldn't see Allison, and neither did Helen.  They required that Allison not live with Noah right now.  For most people, that wouldn't be a problem since they'd just get their own apartments until the divorce/custody issues are sorted, but they'd date anyway. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by izabella

[HumblePi]

I think that to this point we've been made to feel sympathy for Cole as being the husband whose wife cheated on him. He was such a nice guy, how could she do such a thing, right?  Yes, Alison began an affair with an attractive man that gave her attention and desired her as a woman. It was clearly wrong plain and simple. But understanding what motivates a young, attractive woman to cheat on her husband is the more important issue. So far, Cole has been shown in a pretty positive light, good husband, works hard, a family man. But wait, didn't Cole have an affair with a pretty brunette before Allison began her affair with Noah? Isn't Cole a drug trafficker and didn't he hold a gun to Noah's head?  I think that many of Cole's demons will be exposed this season and we'll begin to better understand Alison as a person. From Alison's perspective, she sees Cole as explosive, potentially violent and not really compassionate enough to help her deal with the death of their son. In doing so, he might help himself accept this. Doesn't Cole have a large tattoo of the Angel Gabriel on his back? It's not on his forearm, or shoulder or anywhere visible to him. It's almost as though he has pushed the death of Gabriel in the back of his consciousness and hasn't dealt with it yet and hasn't supported Alison to deal with it either.

 

These two couples are all a mess emotionally and they each reached out to whatever made them feel better. Whether it was another man, drugs or alcohol like Helen, an affair like Noah and Alison or reverting to anger as Cole has done. They all sought something out that would help them cope.

[cardigirl]

But wait, didn't Cole have an affair with a pretty brunette before Allison began her affair with Noah? 

 

He did?  

[Quiche]

I think that to this point we've been made to feel sympathy for Cole as being the husband whose wife cheated on him. He was such a nice guy, how could she do such a thing, right?  Yes, Alison began an affair with an attractive man that gave her attention and desired her as a woman. It was clearly wrong plain and simple. But understanding what motivates a young, attractive woman to cheat on her husband is the more important issue. So far, Cole has been shown in a pretty positive light, good husband, works hard, a family man. But wait, didn't Cole have an affair with a pretty brunette before Allison began her affair with Noah? Isn't Cole a drug trafficker and didn't he hold a gun to Noah's head?  I think that many of Cole's demons will be exposed this season and we'll begin to better understand Alison as a person. From Alison's perspective, she sees Cole as explosive, potentially violent and not really compassionate enough to help her deal with the death of their son. In doing so, he might help himself accept this. Doesn't Cole have a large tattoo of the Angel Gabriel on his back? It's not on his forearm, or shoulder or anywhere visible to him. It's almost as though he has pushed the death of Gabriel in the back of his consciousness and hasn't dealt with it yet and hasn't supported Alison to deal with it either.

 

These two couples are all a mess emotionally and they each reached out to whatever made them feel better. Whether it was another man, drugs or alcohol like Helen, an affair like Noah and Alison or reverting to anger as Cole has done. They all sought something out that would help them cope.

 

I think the major problem in Cole and Allison's marriage was his family and this is Cole's fault.  The Lockhart family drained everything from that marriage.  They preyed on both Cole and Allison.  It was particularly dismal the way Allison was part of the family drug operations.  It drained all the emotion out of her and her marriage.

Therefore, it is perfectly understandable why she wanted out, and why she grabbed at the first chance she had to get out of that family by hooking up with Noah.  Her motives are very clear.  Cole is no innocent in this.  He engaged in criminal activity.  He is violent.  He put his family above his marriage.

[Palomar]

I don't think anyone is trying to keep Allison away from Noah.  Not the judge, not Helen.  Helen wants Allison away from her kids right now, and the judge agrees since they are still figuring out custody and working through a divorce.  The judge didn't say Noah couldn't see Allison, and neither did Helen.

 

The thing is....the kids themselves want nothing to do with Allison and don't want to live with her.  To them, their Dad picked her over them and she is the reason for the divorce. Helen doesn't have to say anything for them to think that. All the events are traumatic enough....living with her at this point in time would make it worse. It makes sense to gradually introduce contact with her.  I really doubt Allison wants the kids either....not much privacy and too many reminders of her own child.  Noah would eventually hate not being able to have his alone time with Allison if the kids were there full time.  They really do need to come up with something that makes sense for the kids first and foremost.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Palomar