S02.E04: 204

[HumblePi]

Sorry, but are we ever going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  After seeing Helen's reaction after the first time she had sex with Max, it was pretty obvious that she knew she'd made a massive drunken mistake and that it was never going to happen again.  He just kept showing up uninvited and inserted himself into her life.  She had zero desire to go to Belize or anywhere else with him.  

 

Also, I think the show is about points of view, not deliberately leaving massive chunks of plot out.  If Helen had indeed had sex with Max, it wouldn't have been left ouf of her point of view, it just would have been framed differently.

But you are assuming that the first time Helen and Max had sex was in the penthouse of his newly acquired hotel but I think that Helen was having an affair with Max long before the NY sex-capade. It most definitely was not a one-time sexual fling.

[GeminiDancer]

But you are assuming that the first time Helen and Max had sex was in the penthouse of his newly acquired hotel but I think that Helen was having an affair with Max long before the NY sex-capade. It most definitely was not a one-time sexual fling.

I can't agree with that. If she was already boning Max, why would she be disinterested in the sex and be in tears in the shower after? The look on her face in the first episode screamed "What did I just do?". Max's sex talk smacked of "I finally get to have you!". Also, every time Helen kisses Max, she has this very timid and then makes herself do it approach. That doesn't seem like they've been regularly banging even while Noah's banging Alison.

[Otherkate]

Why does it matter? Helen does not need to be celibate at this point because they are clearly separated and in the midst of divorce proceedings. Noah does not need to be celibate at this point either because he is clearly separated from his wife. It's totally fine for both of them to have as much sex as they would like and with whomever they would like. The children being exposed to new significant others and how that happens is totally separate from either one of them actually having a SO. Or casual sex partner, for that matter. They are adults who are separated. They can have sex.

[Palomar]

I do agree that Noah sees himself as a good guy, but I think there is also a strong undercurrent of self-loathing. This past episode, he did very little right, IMO. Tearing out of his sister's house--he had to know that was a selfish thing to do, and that it would confuse the hell out of his children. God, What a DICK!  If they wanted to play it like Noah was a victim (or Noah believed he was a victim) of his overbearing sister, they could have painted her far worse. The fact that he looked like such a dick shows me that Noah isn't even on his own side half the time.

 

 

Noah definitely feels guilt but not enough to change anything and consider the kids well being first and foremost.  A couple episodes ago, Allison asked him what was the worst thing he had done and he said "This".  And despite being a mother, Allison doesn't really seem to care too much about Noah's kids and their unhappiness either.

[izabella]

 

All of the married characters have been unfaithful to their partner. Noah, Alison, Cole, Max, even Margaret Butler and Bruce Butler. They're all either having affairs or have had affairs and they try justifying it to themselves by blaming others for their own failures or shortcomings. I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed that Cherry Lockhart had an affair with Bruce Butler. LOL!

 

Helen didn't cheat on Noah.  I also don't recall her mother cheating on her father; it was the other way around.  And Cole didn't cheat on Allison.

Edited October 29, 2015 by izabella

[HumblePi]

I can't agree with that. If she was already boning Max, why would she be disinterested in the sex and be in tears in the shower after? The look on her face in the first episode screamed "What did I just do?". Max's sex talk smacked of "I finally get to have you!". Also, every time Helen kisses Max, she has this very timid and then makes herself do it approach. That doesn't seem like they've been regularly banging even while Noah's banging Alison.

If you recall in season one, Max joined the Solloways in Montauk. At their meeting, which was lunch outside on a picnic table at the Lobster Roll. He sat next to Helen and embraced her and gave her a long and deep kiss on the mouth. Truthfully, It was uncomfortable watching and I was embarrassed for the kids. That's also the time that Max bought some cocaine from Cole's brother Hal who was driving the taxi that he and Noah took. Max even mentioned something about his ex or soon to be ex-wife. I tend to believe that Helen was 'regularly banging' Max even long before Noah met Alison in Montauk. Helen didn’t really know how to support Noah as an artist; she absolutely bullied him about money and how he wasn't making it and she never stood up to her parents in defense of Noah.

Helen didn't cheat on Noah.  I also don't recall her mother cheating on her father; it was the other way around.  And Cole didn't cheat on Allison.

Really?  Well, time will tell, won't it.

[Neurochick]

Oh it definitely is. But if you think about it,most "cheaters" try to justify why they did what they did, rather than admit that they just wanted to.  At least in my experience. There is always some excuse for the behavior, that's supposed to let them off the hook.  Really, it's just a decision they made. 

 

 

Yes, but I don't judge them one way or another.  Some people don't cheat but are "married" to other things in their life, like work or mountain climbing, or alcohol or gambling.   Some people grow apart but never cheat.  Is that worse, I don't know.

[HumblePi]

I can't agree with that. If she was already boning Max, why would she be disinterested in the sex and be in tears in the shower after? The look on her face in the first episode screamed "What did I just do?". Max's sex talk smacked of "I finally get to have you!". Also, every time Helen kisses Max, she has this very timid and then makes herself do it approach. That doesn't seem like they've been regularly banging even while Noah's banging Alison.

Maybe Helen realizes that the affair with Max doesn't have to be kept a deep dark secret anymore. Now that she can be more open with Max, maybe keeping the secret of her affair with Max was more titillating than the actual affair. She was cheating and was getting away with it which somehow makes infidelity more alluring. Since there's no reason to keep it secret it may not be much of a thrill any longer. It's pretty clear that Helen's mother Margaret not only knew about this affair but encouraged it. Max had wealth and social prominence which means everything to Margaret. The way she talked about Max at the benefit dinner, she wished Helen had chosen Max over Noah to marry, etc. Margaret also had just barely gone back inside the brownstone when they got home from the benefit in a cab when Max and Helen commenced giving each other a very passionate kiss out on the stoop. Would she really do that in full view if there wasn't an affair going on? Helen was pretty comfortable knowing she could cheat on her husband, play a mother role with her kids, play the jilted woman and not have to worry about money or paying any bills.

[briochetwist]

Maybe Helen realizes that the affair with Max doesn't have to be kept a deep dark secret anymore. Now that she can be more open with Max, maybe keeping the secret of her affair with Max was more titillating than the actual affair. She was cheating and was getting away with it which somehow makes infidelity more alluring. Since there's no reason to keep it secret it may not be much of a thrill any longer. It's pretty clear that Helen's mother Margaret not only knew about this affair but encouraged it. Max had wealth and social prominence which means everything to Margaret. The way she talked about Max at the benefit dinner, she wished Helen had chosen Max over Noah to marry, etc. Margaret also had just barely gone back inside the brownstone when they got home from the benefit in a cab when Max and Helen commenced giving each other a very passionate kiss out on the stoop. Would she really do that in full view if there wasn't an affair going on? Helen was pretty comfortable knowing she could cheat on her husband, play a mother role with her kids, play the jilted woman and not have to worry about money or paying any bills.

Are we watching the same show???  It's about differing points of view, not fantasy and conspiracy theories.

[GeminiDancer]

 

If you recall in season one, Max joined the Solloways in Montauk. At their meeting, which was lunch outside on a picnic table at the Lobster Roll. He sat next to Helen and embraced her and gave her a long and deep kiss on the mouth.

 

I watched it. I certainly didn't see any hint of possible affair in that kiss. I saw it as Max being smarmy friend who adores Helen, is very inappropriate, and understands the boundary of Noah and Helen's marriage.

 

There's nothing in Helen's demeanor that indicates that she's been having this long-standing affair with Max. I see her as turning to Max because she's in tremendous amount of pain and needing someone to comfort her. In fact, Max makes the point of saying how he's waited for 20 years to be with her. That doesn't sound like a guy who's been having some illicit affair. That's a guy who finally saw his main competition leave before swooping in. Noah was already gone and living with Alison at this point. And that kiss on the steps of the brownstone was as passionless as the hotel sex was.

[grumpypanda]

I don't believe that Helen was having an affair with Max. From everything we've been shown Helen loved Noah and thought they had a good marriage. It's obvious that she was completely shocked by Noah's betrayal because in her mind everything was fine before Alison came along.

I also don't think we can compare Noah's affair with Alison to Helen sleeping with Max after Noah took off. Also, even if Helen decided to have an open relationship with Max at this point I doubt it would be traumatizing to the kids. The kids know Max and they know that their mom wasn't the one to destroy the marriage.

I doubt Helen's relationship with Max will have any impact of the divorce. Noah doesn't have any proof of anything anyway. I'm glad that Noah knows that Helen is (or was) getting some. Even if he isn't in love with Helen anymore it still stings a little knowing that you ex has moved on.

I'm still hoping that Noah will go to prison and Helen will write a best selling book about adultery. She also marries a hot successful younger man and that eventually Alison dumps Noah and he ends up alone and broke after he is released from prison. Yes, I hate Noah that much!

Edited October 29, 2015 by grumpypanda

[Otherkate]

Yeah, the guy made a huge deal out of finally getting into Helen's pants. 

[truthaboutluv]

I tend to believe that Helen was 'regularly banging' Max even long before Noah met Alison in Montauk.

 

 

And one is entitled to believe anything they want but there is nothing that has been shown on the show to support the notion that Helen has been having some long standing affair with Max.

 

It's pretty clear that Helen's mother Margaret not only knew about this affair but encouraged it.

 

 

Actually the only thing that was clear is that Helen and Noah were friends with Max from college and so her mom has known him since then and always hoped Helen would pick Max because Max is likely from money like Helen herself. 

 

Yeah, the guy made a huge deal out of finally getting into Helen's pants.

 

 

This. He went on about how much he'd always wanted her both after their sex scene in the hotel and later after they attended the charity benefit. Also, in the first season, when Noah asks Max for the money to pay off Oscar and admits his affair, Max gives him the money and agrees to keep the secret. But then he asks Noah if the affair was over and basically tells him how amazing Helen is and advises Noah to not make the mistake he did and ruin his marriage. I can't see that stuff coming from someone who was having some long standing affair with Helen. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[cardigirl]

Yes, but I don't judge them one way or another.  Some people don't cheat but are "married" to other things in their life, like work or mountain climbing, or alcohol or gambling.   Some people grow apart but never cheat.  Is that worse, I don't know.

There are all kinds of ways to "cheat" but it is still a decision, not inevitable.  I believe that a person makes a choice to love someone, be it their wife, husband, or someone outside of that relationship. And when they do choose behavior that harms the relationship, they don't get to make excuses such as "I got married too young" "He was never home" "She got old" etc. I keep reading people writing that Helen was domineering, cold, her parents were mean to Noah (aww poor little guy) so of course he was going to cheat. Excuses for his behavior. 

 

Rather than have an affair, leave.  Tell someone how unhappy you are.  But most people don't do that because why?  They want their cake: 

Entitlement, of course, only feels awesome if you can suppress empathy. (Truly disordered people cannot do empathy.) Entitlement is — all the cookies for me! Empathy is… well, maybe I should share my cookies. You look sad without a cookie. As much as I want all the cookies, I don’t know if I can enjoy my cookies knowing that you’re sad not having a cookie.

When people are caught cheating they do a lot of things to keep entitlement alive. They gaslight.

Cookies? I don’t have cookies.

They blame shift.

It is Right and Proper that I have all the cookies, because you don’t know how to appreciate cookies.

They mind fuck.

I would give you a cookie, but I’m was thinking of your health. You can’t handle sugar.

They obfuscate.

Cookie? Define cookie.

 

[Neurochick]

See, I don't think things are that simple.  It's easy to say, "it's a decision," because it makes some people feel morally superior to others.  Nobody wakes up one morning and says, "I think I"ll decide to have an affair today."  

 

But if everything is a decision, it was Helen's decision to get drunk, get stoned and then pick up her children.  She deserved to be in jail.

 

But what I do wonder is, if they hadn't been found out, would they have gone on like nothing had happened?  

 

I really wish the whole murder plot would just go away, for me it's dragging the show down.  

 

BTW, I can see Noah getting off simply because Cole's brother got his underage daughter pregnant.  Most fathers would beat the shit out of some douchebag who got their underage daughter pregnant, wouldn't even call the cops on him, just make him feel sorry he was ever born.  Besides, Cole's brother should have gone to jail for that one.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Neurochick

[Constantinople]

Would everybody think Helen was such a saint if she'd killed an innocent person?

 

It depends on the "innocent" person.

 

He just kept showing up uninvited and inserted himself into her life.  She had zero desire to go to Belize...

It's usually a bad idea to take a trip to Belize no matter who invites you

 

Breaking Bad Spoiler

[cardigirl]

See, I don't think things are that simple.  It's easy to say, "it's a decision," because it makes some people feel morally superior to others.  Nobody wakes up one morning and says, "I think I"ll decide to have an affair today."  

 

But what I do wonder is, if they hadn't been found out, would they have gone on like nothing had happened?  

All of our actions are decisions. Even the decision to not act, is a decision. Free will anyone? Sure, things can happen to us where we weren't in control, as in an accident.   But to say that people can't help themselves when they embark on a course of behavior is saying that people don't have free will. What I think you are saying is that Noah was so strongly  attracted to Alison, he couldn't keep away.  He had to start the affair.  And in the first season, he certainly made her look like the aggressor in his POVs.   Like he was helpless before her amazing charms. AND in saying he couldn't help himself, that he was powerless before her, he absolves himself from blame for the pain he causes. 

 

The same could be said for Helen's choices of how she is dealing with this unwanted turn of events in her life. She's going to have to realize she is responsible for the life she builds now.

[HumblePi]

Are we watching the same show???  It's about differing points of view, not fantasy and conspiracy theories.

LOL!  okay, ok......

[izabella]

All of our actions are decisions. Even the decision to not act, is a decision. Free will anyone? Sure, things can happen to us where we weren't in control, as in an accident.   But to say that people can't help themselves when they embark on a course of behavior is saying that people don't have free will. What I think you are saying is that Noah was so strongly  attracted to Alison, he couldn't keep away.  He had to start the affair.  And in the first season, he certainly made her look like the aggressor in his POVs.   Like he was helpless before her amazing charms. AND in saying he couldn't help himself, that he was powerless before her, he absolves himself from blame for the pain he causes.

 

I agree that decisions were made, many of them.  Noah did wake up and say, I'm going to go hang around the diner hoping to see Allison.  I'm going to Allison's house uninvited.  I'm going to kiss Allison.

 

Every step of the way, Noah (and Allison) made decisions to cheat, even though they didn't wake up today and decide to cheat.  They woke up each day and decided to take the small steps to get closer to someone they wanted to turn into a paramour.   Had they decided NOT to cheat, they wouldn't have taken each of those little steps.

Edited October 29, 2015 by izabella

[blixie]

 

Really?  Well, time will tell, won't it.

 

On a show with no objective truth, NO it really will not.

[Andyourlittledog2]

Parental love is a miracle, no?  They are both fighting over custody of children I'd be sorely tempted to drive into the forest and leave on the side of the road.  The three older children are all very aggressive toward their parents. I know they hurt but damn.  They have no problem taunting their parents, grabbing at them aggressively, pushing them, tearing things out of their hands, swearing at them, etc.  They're just little assholes all around and that wasn't  by accident. They've been paying attention to their parents and grandparents for years, obviously.  

 

Seriously. Deep in the forest.  

 

For all the 'great love affair' talk, I don't see either Noah or Allison being actually in love with the other. I don't think either of them is selfless enough to be capable of truly loving anyone but themselves.  When they have sex I see Allison submitting and putting up with and Noah mostly just taking for himself. Very uncomfortable, no real emotional sharing or true intimacy at all.  They are too self-involved to be intimate with each other.  I couldn't believe Allison showed up with beer to take Noah's attention from his kids at the motel.  And Noah was happy to be diverted.  

 

Aw, Helen.  Keep Stacy. Give the other three kids to Noah and god speed. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Andyourlittledog2

[Milburn Stone]

Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe Noah's version especially since now Noah knows that Helen hasn't exactly been celibate.

 

The really interesting thing about this observation is that it points up the bias we have which is determined by which order we see things in. We "automatically" believe that Helen strew her own clothes around in a drunken stupor, and that Noah is mistaken about it, mainly because we saw Helen's version first. So we are disposed to think Noah's mental accusation is unfair. If we'd seen Noah's version first, and started to form the same conclusions he did, we might see Helen's version as coming up with a cover story for herself. Congratulations for not being as susceptible to this "order bias" (for lack of a better term) as I was!

[JenE4]

I find this so fascinating that a show that explores different perspectives is causing such an extreme reaction that everyone thinks their perspective is right. Haven't we all learned something from the show that we're probably all wrong and right at the same time? ;-) Yet, with all of the various opinions, I think the one thing everyone agrees on at all times is that Whitney is insufferable. Lol.

I'd say Helen probably dropped a bra on the steps rather than a sock but laundry is a mundane chore so lone sock it is in her memory; Max probably brought nicer flowers because red roses are a cliche rather than the memory of the specific flower that Helen would have; Helen probably gave Max a glass of wine when he arrived but maybe Noah remembers it upstairs when it was really downstairs next to the flowers; and of course we know how Helen's clothes got strewn about her room which to Noah looked like someone pulled them off her.

[truthaboutluv]

The really interesting thing about this observation is that it points up the bias we have which is determined by which order we see things in. We "automatically" believe that Helen strew her own clothes around in a drunken stupor, and that Noah is mistaken about it, mainly because we saw Helen's version first. So we are disposed to think Noah's mental accusation is unfair. If we'd seen Noah's version first, and started to form the same conclusions he did, we might see Helen's version as coming up with a cover story for herself. Congratulations for not being as susceptible to this "order bias" (for lack of a better term) as I was!

 

YMMV but even if they'd shown Helen's version second, I would still believe it because of a key factor that someone else pointed out after the episode. This episode, unlike some others, particularly the season finale where we had these wildly different versions of what happened with Cole and the gun, seemed to go back to the format of the two versions filling in the blanks. 

 

In other words, even if Helen's version was second, I would have looked at the episode and thought, when they showed Noah's first, "oh Helen must have hooked up with Max thinking she wasn't supposed to pick up the kids and that's why she was likely drunk when she got there." However, when Helen's version was shown, I would think, "oh that's what happened but I can see how easily Noah could have misunderstood it because without direct knowledge since he wasn't there, that assumption could be made."

 

In other words the two memories weren't wildly different. One just saw some things that he made an assumption about and so he remembers some details to match that assumption, even if it isn't entirely accurate, like the two glasses. And hell the two glasses might have been real because didn't Max open up a bottle when he got there? So they might have shared a drink before the split happened. It just again felt like Helen's version explained things that Noah, without having the facts, misconstrued as something else. But again, YMMV.

Edited October 29, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[izabella]

The really interesting thing about this observation is that it points up the bias we have which is determined by which order we see things in. We "automatically" believe that Helen strew her own clothes around in a drunken stupor, and that Noah is mistaken about it, mainly because we saw Helen's version first. So we are disposed to think Noah's mental accusation is unfair. If we'd seen Noah's version first, and started to form the same conclusions he did, we might see Helen's version as coming up with a cover story for herself. Congratulations for not being as susceptible to this "order bias" (for lack of a better term) as I was!

 

I believe Helen's version because it's inconceivable to me that she would "forget" that she had sex with Max and that's how her clothes came off.  It is highly believable to me that she would have been struggling to get her Spanx off by herself.

[Milburn Stone]

I believe Helen's version because it's inconceivable to me that she would "forget" that she had sex with Max and that's how her clothes came off.  It is highly believable to me that she would have been struggling to get her Spanx off by herself.

 

But we don't even know if we're seeing the characters' actual memories or merely narratives that they're spinning for someone else's benefit! (As for instance the police detective last year.)

[right]

Yes, but I don't judge them one way or another.  Some people don't cheat but are "married" to other things in their life, like work or mountain climbing, or alcohol or gambling.   Some people grow apart but never cheat.  Is that worse, I don't know.

 

 

 

See, I don't think things are that simple.  It's easy to say, "it's a decision," because it makes some people feel morally superior to others.  Nobody wakes up one morning and says, "I think I"ll decide to have an affair today."  

 

But if everything is a decision, it was Helen's decision to get drunk, get stoned and then pick up her children.  She deserved to be in jail.

 

But what I do wonder is, if they hadn't been found out, would they have gone on like nothing had happened?  

 

I really wish the whole murder plot would just go away, for me it's dragging the show down.  

 

BTW, I can see Noah getting off simply because Cole's brother got his underage daughter pregnant.  Most fathers would beat the shit out of some douchebag who got their underage daughter pregnant, wouldn't even call the cops on him, just make him feel sorry he was ever born.  Besides, Cole's brother should have gone to jail for that one.

 

In your first post you make the point you do not "judge" Noah & Allison for being lying cheaters.  Yet in your second you have no problem judging Helen for her actions and Scotty for getting Whitney pregnant.  Both should be in jail???  Neither lied to anyone and what Helen did would be a misdemeanor as a first offense.  Whitney getting knocked up at 17 isn't against the law in any state, legal age of consent is 16 for most of the country.

 

Noah and Allison intentionally ruined their spouses lives as well as really screwed up Noah's kids future.  Yet, this just gets a shoulder shrug and a "that's life" deal with it?  People who destroy other peoples lives through lying and cheating deserve to be to judged.  I'm sure you would feel a thief who steals money should be judged negatively, why shouldn't a liar who steals others happiness?

[Boundary]

I agree that decisions were made, many of them.  Noah did wake up and say, I'm going to go hang around the diner hoping to see Allison.  I'm going to Allison's house uninvited.  I'm going to kiss Allison.

 

Every step of the way, Noah (and Allison) made decisions to cheat, even though they didn't wake up today and decide to cheat.  They woke up each day and decided to take the small steps to get closer to someone they wanted to turn into a paramour.   Had they decided NOT to cheat, they wouldn't have taken each of those little steps.

 

Life is muddled, not neat and sometimes not logical at all. A person might decide one thing that directly opposes a decision taken two minutes earlier, for the simple reason that circumstances have changed, or they've changed their minds, or they're undoing a bad decision, or there's a better decision to be made, or they feel like it, or ... See what I mean? Life is messy and sometimes makes no sense. With that in mind, a person can dip their toe into an affair and still totally hope to remain monogamous. Noah initially did that. It really makes no sense because it's not supposed to. But, crucially, it happens. Explaining it any other way is like trying to fit a straight line into a random sequence. Simpler, but many times inadequate.

 

Personally, I believe the desire or hope to marry one person and remain faithful forever and ever is an honorable one, that we all perhaps strive for. In reality most of us don't get it. And when we do, it's for the same random reasons that created affairs in other instances. I might promise to marry someone and be faithful but what if in future I think I've found someone else? Ideally I should inform my current spouse, give notice to leave before I even find out if there's a vacancy on the other side. But that hardly happens, because humans being are funny. We crave risk and predictability all at the same time.

 

I don't know if I made any sense. Basically, this is not a blame game, sometimes nature gives us a different game altogether.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Boundary

[Nanrad]

Honestly, besides thinking that Helen is taking the divorce hard and mixed up her days, no one is thinking she should get off for anything. We understand her actions, but w aren't necessarily excusing them.

 

And again, I don't think Helen is keeping her kids away from the dad or even tampering with their relationship with him. Saying, "Don't bring that woman around my kids" is not the same as saying "you cannot see your kids." Noah has access to his kids and even was picking them up on a Thursday to spend time with them. This already seemed prearranged and even after that court hearing, so I'm not understanding how Helen is keeping him away. I'm not even understanding where that is coming from. Custody battle doesn't automatically mean "sole custody and other parent can't see their kids at all", it means that legal grounds are being set for custody sole/primary, split, and so forth. Mediation was about split custody, court proceedings was for Helen to have primary custody and STILL visit their dad.

 

Nothing in the series supports that Helen is bad mouthing their dad or trying to taint him to them. They still love him and want to spend time with him.

 

So, again, what is Helen doing besides saying, "I don't want Alison around my kids" and fighting for primary custody that screams, "She's trying to interfere with their relationship!!!"

[Quiche]

I do not see Max as anything serious in Helen's life.  He amounts to nothing.  Helen is not going to get together with him.  She doesn't want him.  She is still in love with Noah.
Actually, Helen is taking the situation better than most women.  Yes, she had her crazy day with booze and drugs leading to his disaster in the parking lot.  Yes she slept with Max.  He was like taking another drug.  The scene quite obviously showed that for her sex was unremarkable and bad.
Bad sex on the rebound does not make a relationship.  And as we saw in the last episode, Helen does not want a relationship with Max.  I don't blame her.

[right]

Life is muddled, not neat and sometimes not logical at all. A person might decide one thing that directly opposes a decision taken two minutes earlier, for the simple reason that circumstances have changed, or they've changed their minds, or they're undoing a bad decision, or there's a better decision to be made, or they feel like it, or ... See what I mean? Life is messy and sometimes makes no sense. With that in mind, a person can dip their toe into an affair and still totally hope to remain monogamous. Noah initially did that. It really makes no sense because it's not supposed to. But, crucially, it happens. Explaining it any other way is like trying to fit a straight line into a random sequence. Simpler, but many times inadequate.

 

Personally, I believe the desire or hope to marry one person and remain faithful forever and ever is an honorable one, that we all perhaps strive for. In reality most of us don't get it. And when we do, it's for the same random reasons that created affairs in other instances. I might promise to marry someone and be faithful but what if in future I think I've found someone else? Ideally I should inform my current spouse, give notice to leave before I even find out if there's a vacancy on the other side. But that hardly happens, because humans being are funny. We crave risk and predictability all at the same time.

 

I don't know if I made any sense. Basically, this is not a blame game, sometimes nature gives us a different game altogether.

 

Are you implying that there should be no accountability because nature, fate or the stars make us do what we do?  I can't go along with this.  We all have free will and make choices every day that need to be thought out logically.  Sure, we all have impulses and desires to do all kinds of crazy things.  However, if we were raised to have empathy for others most of us try to weigh the pros and cons of what we do.  I always say when you make a decision and reverse it and it only affects you that is "changing your mind", if you do it and it affects someone else that is a "lie".

 

Most people I know that cheated and divorced end up in pretty much in the same position they were prior to cheating.  They simply traded one normal relationship where boredom and familiarity made them feel restless for another.  But now they have screwed their kids and made life more difficult for all involved.  Sure some people are in abusive relationships where divorce is the only option, but this is not the case for way too many divorced people.  Commitment should be just that, a commitment!

[RedheadZombie]

I'm confused by a couple of things in Helen's version.  The first is the opening scene in the courtroom.  As the lawyer is pontificating about the "paramour", the judge perks up at the mention of Helen's brownstone.  He then proceeds to ask detailed questions about the "whole brownstone", how much it's worth, and if the kids attend a private school.  Then Helen and her attorney talk about Noah going after her money.  From what we were shown, I did not interrupt the scene as Noah on a money-grab.  What did I miss?

 

It's interesting that Helen seems highly irritated with her attorney, and remembers herself scolding him and dropping F bombs.  More confirmation that I dislike Helen - calling another woman "c***".  I hate that word.

 

Both Noah and Helen seem to feel their support person is not properly supportive of their custody issues.  It seemed to me that Helen and Margaret are mutually unsupportive.  They're going through similar situations, yet it doesn't seem to help them understand each other better.

 

I thought Helen's use of marijuana in the park was by prescription, but surely she would have mentioned it to the cop.  Since she seems fairly experienced with the drug, I think it was a cop out by the writers to imply she naively popped the lozenge that Max pushed on her.

 

Max was a tool and total asshole.  He sees Helen as a prize, rather than the real woman she is. 

 

I thought Maura was brave and really went for it in her under the influence scenes.  Not many fifty year old actresses would go all out while wearing underwear in that singing scene.  Some of the scenes bordered on OTT, but I respect that she threw vanity out the window and went for it.  RW may have some competition during awards season.

 

I know we're supposed to hate Noah, but why isn't he entitled to the same percentage of money a woman would get from a wealthier husband?  It's funny that both Helen and Alison own the marital home, and both husbands were nobly declining a share.

 

This is completely superficial and I feel a little bad for bringing it up, but the duck lips on this show are really distracting.  I think RW's is natural, and I've slowly become used to it.  But I don't remember MT having that lip, and it seems to be "enhanced".  I have a thin upper lip myself, so I always notice this type of thing. 

 

 

 

[truthaboutluv]

I know we're supposed to hate Noah, but why isn't he entitled to the same percentage of money a woman would get from a wealthier husband?

 

 

Because he's the one who cheated and violated the marriage vows? Also, he is not going to have custody of the children. Would anyone think a woman deserves half of her rich husband's money if she'd cheated on said husband, left the marriage and didn't have the children full time?

[izabella]

I know we're supposed to hate Noah, but why isn't he entitled to the same percentage of money a woman would get from a wealthier husband?

 

 

I wondered about that, too.  We know Helen's house was purchased by a trust, so it's not marital property.  It's possible that ALL of Helen's money is in a trust.  Maybe it's a family trust, maybe it's her own, but that would keep Helen's money out of Noah's hands in terms of splitting marital property. 

 

I think, though, that a divorce settlement or alimony might apply once they are divorced, so Helen might have to pay that to Noah.  I have no idea how they assess that kind of thing in NY.

 

I don't know.  I've been confused about that.

[izabella]

Because he's the one who cheated and violated the marriage vows? Also, he is not going to have custody of the children. Would anyone think a woman deserves half of her rich husband's money if she'd cheated on said husband, left the marriage and didn't have the children full time?

 

It's not really about "deserving" the money or not in cases of cheating.  It's about the divorce laws in the state.  In the states with no-fault divorce, they don't care if you cheated.  It doesn't figure into custody cases, either.  States have formulas for how they divide assets and child support, and award alimony (if alimony is allowed in that state).  Some states still require a cause to file for divorce, but I don't know if the "cause" figures into the financial settlements. 

 

If the money and assets were accrued during the marriage, the cheater or the betrayed spouse could have earned some, none, or all of it through their own income, but they are both entitled to it as marital property.  Trusts and inheritances are a way around the marital property laws.

Edited October 31, 2015 by izabella

[briochetwist]

 

This is completely superficial and I feel a little bad for bringing it up, but the duck lips on this show are really distracting.  I think RW's is natural, and I've slowly become used to it.  But I don't remember MT having that lip, and it seems to be "enhanced".  I have a thin upper lip myself, so I always notice this type of thing. 

I feel guilty too, but every time I see Ruth Wilson I think of Marge Simpson.  I cannot help it.

[Irlandesa]

I know we're supposed to hate Noah, but why isn't he entitled to the same percentage of money a woman would get from a wealthier husband?  It's funny that both Helen and Alison own the marital home, and both husbands were nobly declining a share.

It's because Helen herself technically isn't wealthy.  Her family is.  And her family has supported both of them.

 

Where I think it gets complicated is when it comes to child support.  The theory is that the living situations should be comparable and that usually leads to wage garnishment but Helen alone doesn't make any money.  I have no idea what would happen in that situation.

[Boundary]

They've already mentioned that Bruce is very good at protecting his money, I'm not sure how far Noah would get if he tries to go after the money. He is doing it simply to cause a headache to Helen, tit for tat for serving him papers. Essentially they both need to tone down the fighting.

 

Are you implying that there should be no accountability because nature, fate or the stars make us do what we do?  

 

 

No, of course not, there's plenty of accountability. When Noah confessed his affair to Helen he got kicked out, he couldn't have expected anything less. What I was saying was that people make bad decisions as randomly as good ones. Despite themselves, people end up cheating on their spouses. The consequences are bad but it doesn't necessarily mean the people themselves are bad. I'm generalizing, so naturally individual cases will differ, the usual caveat. In our case, there's been no suggestion that Noah is a serial cheater, he simply met a waitress and decided to leave his very young family for her. He has to face the consequences and no fate or stars made him do what he did. He simply fell in love with another and decided to act on that. He could've easily decided to stew in his own juices instead and stay in a marriage he no longer valued, kids aside. 

[SlackerInc]

Here's an interesting opinon:

I think I agree with her.  Cheating is a choice. Not a inevitable event.

This comment really feels judgmental, especially the last sentence.

I actually agreed with all of it until it went very wrong in the last two sentences. BTW, cardigirl, you talk about free will as though it's a settled issue that it exists. I would say that while it is still controversial, the majority of scientists and philosophers do not believe free will exists. And I agree that it does not.

I can't agree with that. If she was already boning Max, why would she be disinterested in the sex and be in tears in the shower after? The look on her face in the first episode screamed "What did I just do?". Max's sex talk smacked of "I finally get to have you!". Also, every time Helen kisses Max, she has this very timid and then makes herself do it approach. That doesn't seem like they've been regularly banging even while Noah's banging Alison.

I am in the middle. I thought they might have had sex before that, but likely not when Helen and Noah were still together. I also tend to believe Helen's account of the day Max came over. I think it's easier for Noah to get the wrong idea about the flowers and wine and clothes strewn around than it is for Helen to misremember whether they had sex. Actually, I think this was one of the most clever uses of the Rashomon technique, and it's not nearly as good if Noah's impression is more accurate.

[RedheadZombie]

AND, if Noah is really the DB many of us seem to think he is, the kids will figure that out soon enough.  The missed birthdays, the missed school events, or never taking their calls because he is busy, all of that will inform the kids about their relationship with their father.  Helen won't have to say anything.  And, in fact, she would be better off not denigrating him in front of the kids.  Because that is a way of involving herself in his relationship with the children.

 

The best divorces (and there can be such a thing) happen when people decide to put the anger away and do what's best for their kids.  It takes awhile to get there, but it can be done. Noah lying about his situation is not helping anyone get to that place.  Helen's mom's anger at Noah isn't helping anyone get to that place.  Helen hasn't been shown being vindictive about Noah in front of the kids, she's trying to keep them in their comfort zone.  While I think she's still holding on to some hope that Noah will come back (it's hard to drop the love quickly when you weren't planning to leave) so she's keeping things status quo at home for now, eventually (one hopes) she will try to build a new life of her own.  

 

What I've seen from Helen is the desire to hold the family together.

I haven't seen as much of that from Noah, until an emergency pressed him to take care of them. He can claim that Helen is keeping him from the family (she may very well be complicating things) but until they show Noah actively missing his kids, I don't know that he is.

 

I disagree that Helen hasn't been vindictive in front of the kids.  Trevor repeated that Noah was having a mid-life crisis, and Whitney knew details of the affair, obviously confided to from Helen.   I understand the temptation to confide in Whitney, my cousin did the same with her seventeen year old daughter.  The problem is, it backfires.  Teenagers should not be caught in the middle like this, and my cousin lost her daughter for about six months before they reconciled.

 

*Most of my statement came from Alison and Noah's versions. Of course, everything Noah interprets is deemed wrong and self-serving, except when he acts like an ass, then he's accused of playing the victim.  It can be exhausting trying to make a point when you're simply slapped down with - "That was Noah's memory, and everyone knows he's a lying asshole".  I'm just trying to further the conversation, not engage in an argument.  Life is very rarely black and white - including the character of Noah.

 

I do agree that Noah sees himself as a good guy, but I think there is also a strong undercurrent of self-loathing. This past episode, he did very little right, IMO. Tearing out of his sister's house--he had to know that was a selfish thing to do, and that it would confuse the hell out of his children. God, What a DICK!  If they wanted to play it like Noah was a victim (or Noah believed he was a victim) of his overbearing sister, they could have painted her far worse. The fact that he looked like such a dick shows me that Noah isn't even on his own side half the time.

 

I agree.  And I don't understand why when Helen shows her ass she's "owning" her bad behavior, but when Noah does the same, he's playing the perennial victim.  His version shows his sister being supportive and gently critical, and his over reaction to what she said.  I do think his father acted like a SOB, which is in character with an alcoholic, sometimes even when they're dry.

 

With Noah, it may depend on what he got from cheating.  Was he having a mid-life crisis?  Was he not feeling fulfilled overall?  He wasn't getting the recognition he wanted professionally. He was married to Helen for 20 years and, from what we've been led to believe, Alison was his first affair so doesn't appear to be the result of him being a serial cheater. If he does start feeling appreciated, will that make him feel happier overall in other aspects of his life?

 

But that doesn't mean their relationship will be sunshine and roses.  I suspect their relationship is on shakier ground than they realize.

 

I wonder if Noah's sex-marathon (resulting in losing his job) was to demonstrate that it wasn't only about sex with Alison.  It seems he got it out of his system, yet was still drawn to Alison.

 

 Whitney hates her, [snip]

 

I'd wear that like a badge of honor.  (Sorry to the OP.  This was part of a very well thought out and expressed point, but this part jumped out at me).

[cardigirl]

I think my issue with Helen is this; most of my divorced women friends wound up nearly penniless because the husband was the one making the money; a lot of them had to take low paying jobs to make ends meet.  Helen doesn't have to worry about that.  Her store seems to be more of a vanity project.  She's not worrying about making ends meet.  She could be in a hell of a worse situation, broke, working two jobs and taking care of her children.  I just see her as a spoiled privileged woman whose life didn't work out for her the way she expected it to.  

 

The interesting thing about this episode is that both of them thought the judge screwed them over.

So wealthy women can't have their hearts broken? Can't struggle through grief because the life they built and thought they were happy in was destroyed? That seems harsh. Yes, she has money and that alleviates some of the worries many people face when their marriage dissolves, but she can definitely still suffer anguish and sorrow. And because Helen didn't seek to end her marriage but rather had it pulled away from her, I guess she garners more sympathy, at least from me.

And I did like that both Helen and Noah felt the judge sided with the other.

[cardigirl]

I actually agreed with all of it until it went very wrong in the last two sentences. BTW, cardigirl, you talk about free will as though it's a settled issue that it exists. I would say that while it is still controversial, the majority of scientists and philosophers do not believe free will exists. And I agree that it does not.

So, if no free will exists, no one is ever responsible for their actions, because everything is predetermined anyway, right? It's all fate. Hmmmm. I don't know that anyone has PROVED that. People can argue against the idea of free will vs. predetermination, not sure how you could prove such a thing.

So if I decide to kill someone, that's not free will, it is pre-determined that I will do that and that the victim is predetermined to die that way?

This lets me off the hook for so many things... (I have not killed anyone).

I dunno, I think we can choose to act in ways that are loving and kind or in ways that are vindictive and cruel to the situations we find ourselves in. I would rather be a kind person, I think.

And to tie this back into the show, I hope that at some point Noah and Helen will be able to act kindly towards each other. Don't know if the show will dare to go there.

Edited November 1, 2015 by cardigirl

[truthaboutluv]

I don't know, they seemed polite enough in the scene when the lawyer shows up and Helen says she's paying. Noah looks at her gratefully and she gives him a slight nod and leaves. 

[Neurochick]

So wealthy women can't have their hearts broken? Can't struggle through grief because the life they built and thought they were happy in was destroyed? That seems harsh. Yes, she has money and that alleviates some of the worries many people face when their marriage dissolves, but she can definitely still suffer anguish and sorrow. And because Helen didn't seek to end her marriage but rather had it pulled away from her, I guess she garners more sympathy, at least from me.

 

 

If a wealthy woman gets her heart broken, she most likely will have access to all kinds of therapy, to spas, gyms.  She has the ability to take care of herself without having to worry about bills being paid.   A poor woman in that same situation can't take care of her broken heart because she has to be concerned about putting food on the table and making sure the bills, the rent/mortgage is paid on time.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Neurochick

[cardigirl]

If a wealthy woman gets her heart broken, she most likely will have access to all kinds of therapy, to spas, gyms.  She has the ability to take care of herself without having to worry about bills being paid.   A poor woman in that same situation can't take care of her broken heart because she has to be concerned about putting food on the table and making sure the bills, the rent/mortgage is paid on time.

Everyone's pain is their own. I don't think I would want to tell anyone that they shouldn't feel as sad as someone else. It takes time to get through grief.

What's the cutoff point for too much money to be sad? You've got a million dollars so you can never feel real grief? You can never struggle to heal from an emotional trauma?

[Neurochick]

Everyone's pain is their own. I don't think I would want to tell anyone that they shouldn't feel as sad as someone else. It takes time to get through grief.

What's the cutoff point for too much money to be sad? You've got a million dollars so you can never feel real grief? You can never struggle to heal from an emotional trauma?

 

I know this is getting off topic, but it's been brought up.  Two women get cheated on.  Both are sad.  One woman is able to take a month off from work, with pay,  to grieve, see a therapist, talk to friends; she has help for her children, she can take care of herself.  The other woman can't take any time off or else she won't get paid; her grieving process become stunted because she doesn't have time to be sad.  She has to go to work, she has to worry about loss of her husband's income.  I'd be naive to not see a difference.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Neurochick

[cardigirl]

I know this is getting off topic, but it's been brought up.  Two women get cheated on.  Both are sad.  One woman is able to take a month off from work, with pay,  to grieve, see a therapist, talk to friends; she has help for her children, she can take care of herself.  The other woman can't take any time off or else she won't get paid; her grieving process become stunted because she doesn't have time to be sad.  She has to go to work, she has to worry about loss of her husband's income.  I'd be naive to not see a difference.

I agree, we're getting off topic of the show, although I guess we're discussing having sympathy for someone like Helen, and I feel that you are saying she does not need any sympathy because she has money.

I think tragedies can happen to anyone, regardless of their monetary status, and a month off would not be enough for any woman to heal from a 20+ year relationship, quite honestly, even if she was the strongest person in the world, and the richest.

Divorce sucks, especially if you didn't want the relationship to end.

Now, let's talk about Cole! Oh, wait, that's tomorrow's episode. Can't wait!

[Nanrad]

I know this is getting off topic, but it's been brought up.  Two women get cheated on.  Both are sad.  One woman is able to take a month off from work, with pay,  to grieve, see a therapist, talk to friends; she has help for her children, she can take care of herself.  The other woman can't take any time off or else she won't get paid; her grieving process become stunted because she doesn't have time to be sad.  She has to go to work, she has to worry about loss of her husband's income.  I'd be naive to not see a difference.

Bit, I'm not understanding why we can't feel sympathetic to Helen. Okay, she has service privileges because of her money--she doesn't have to struggle as much monetarily. Fantastic. Money makes it easier, but it can't buy happiness. Perhaps the poor woman has a lot of shit compounded unto her grief, but they are both devastated right? Ruch people can feel depressed, lost, etc.

 

From an emotional perspective, I sympathize with her.

[Neurochick]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree.  As of now,  I don't feel sorry for Helen one bit.  Nobody's dead, nobody's ill, she has money, she's fine.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Neurochick

[Quiche]

In no way is Helen to blame for either a cheating husband, or the failure of her marriage.

However, she did make some unwise decisions if she wanted to keep her husband.  When Noah confessed, she kicked him out of their home.  That was not a good decision.  She castigated him, and spoke bad about him to their children.  I don't believe children should every be used against the other parent.

However, whatever mistakes Helen made it does not mean she deserved all this to happen to her.  I have great sympathy for her.

It is a fact of life nowadays that spouses cheat and it is too easy to just find another person that you are more in love with.  This happens all the time.  I don't think anyone can expect their marriage to last forever.  People need to bear that in mind in how they treat each other, and if they want to save their marriage they have to be strong and determined to make the best of the the situation.  Sometimes, it means sucking it up.  And here's the most important point – no one, no law or no government is going to make it otherwise.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Quiche