Spoiler Discussion Thread

[FurryFury]

At no point did it seem like the romance took over the show and we still got to see the characters grow and interact with one another.

 

See, I don't think so. I think Sara/Oliver was a symptom already - an artificially created relationship that didn't really stem from their characterizations, created only as an obstacle for Olicity (in an EP's own words, basically). And now we get Ray - an obvious Romantic False Lead (see TVTropes). It's textbook romance writing, boring and unimaginative. It still works if you ship the main couple, but if you don't, it really seems you have to quit the show. At least I feel so.

[Sakura12]

Exactly, if you're like me and don't care about shipping, Felicity getting a placeholder love interest is not that interesting. I want Felicity to have a life outside Team Arrow but not if it's having a shipper block for Olicity, because that still makes it more about Oliver than her. I'd rather they were introducing a woman for Felicity to hang around with, that's why I liked Sara being there, the Arrow cave needed another woman with Oliver, Diggle and Roy being around to even it out. Then they went and made it about jealousy because women have to be jealous of each other even when it's about skills and not a guy. 

 

Sara was Oliver's placeholder love interest, a roadblock for Olicty. I was not happy with her being reduced to Oliver's girlfriend that kicked ass instead of being her own character that kicked ass. I also kind of wish that Sara wasn't coming back to Arrow, because then I can just imagine she's with Nyssa being a badass. I'm fearful for what they have planned for her character this season. 

[Password]

See, I don't think so. I think Sara/Oliver was a symptom already - an artificially created relationship that didn't really stem from their characterizations, created only as an obstacle for Olicity (in an EP's own words, basically). And now we get Ray - an obvious Romantic False Lead (see TVTropes). It's textbook romance writing, boring and unimaginative. It still works if you ship the main couple, but if you don't, it really seems you have to quit the show. At least I feel so.

 

Apologies for not being clear, I meant that in relation to Leverage.

 

Like I said, romance has its place. If the romance is organic and we have the privilege of watching it grow, fantastic. If people are together and I see no reason why, it's annoying and distracting.

 

The way I'm waiting for Felicity to have back story or any story is a joke. So season 3 is probably the make or break season for Arrow, to me anyway. They have so much to work with, and if they can't deliver on a character who is loved and has so much potential, they're at a loss. It's also a reason why I want Felicity's mum to show up. Felicity's dad may or may not be tied to Oliver Queen's life (because this show loves ties to Oliver Queen) but Felicity's mum watched Felicity grow up and knows her nuances. It would be so much fun to even see if her mother is the influence for her quirky brilliance, or if her mum was the catalyst.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[stormborn]

I don't think we'll get Oliver and Diggle fighting over Digg wanting to spend more time with the kid and Lyla, I think it will be the opposite. Oliver keeps trying to send Digg home or sideline him to protect him. Diggle will catch on and conflict will ensue, Digg will make the argument that the work he does on Team Arrow is important and helps keep his family safe. Oliver will be on the side that you can't have it all, that you can't fight by my side because if something happens to you how could I explain that to your kid.

 

Yup this is what I'm thinking as well. I really wish they didn't have to have any conflict at all but if it must happen, prefer it being born out of Oliver wanting Diggle to be alive to see his daughter grow up. 

 

Also Dig's baby girl is too cute!! I was thinking the baby would be a girl and I'm glad that I was right! She's adorable. 

[Starfish35]

Oh! Maybe they name the baby Sara, and that's the double meaning!

[foreverevolving]

Some happy news! Everybody meet Digs daughter! 

http://instagram.com/p/qnX9JSN5oF/

Oh wow! there goes my christmas birth theory. so i guess Lyla must have been further away in the pregnancy than we thought, or they really did do a 8 month time jump.. which means season didn't end in may (arrow timeline) but slightly sooner.

 

haven't read the last page yet so i don't know if anyone mentioned this, but apparently someone already gave the Ray/Felicity romance a nickname: Atomic Smoak.

You know, I have never seen a character get so many nicknames attachmentd (or whatever it's called) with other characters the way Felicity has. i think literally every character on the show has had their name/hero name attached to the "Smoak/Smoaking" name. which just shows how much of a fan favorite Felicity is

Edited July 19, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Happy Harpy]

I kind of wish they'd stop introducing male love interests and started introducing some women so we can their friendships. It seems like they cut a couple of Felicity/Sara scenes, they had one with them near Sara's motorcycle and another with them holding hands after Sara got hurt. 

 

Having Laurel suddenly be Felicity's friend isn't going to work since now it will look like it's "Oh, you're more than just the help, I guess I can be friendly with you" That was there spending 46 episodes making Laurel look like an entitled bitch. 

 

While seeing Roy and Felicity interacting would be nice mostly because of Colton and EBR IRL. I'd rather see how Felicity and Lyla get along. 

I liked your post but I want to give it a big fat giganormous WORD anyway. I resent that Felicity's personal development seems conditioned to having a love interest.  A love disinterest, as far as I'm concerned. Especially since contrary  to Lady Voldemort, she owns her place on the show to her competences and not to her status as a love interest. I want Sara/Felicity and a Felicity/Lyla friendship so bad -oh, have them come together and protect Diggirl. And I really want Thea/Felicity to interact at some point.

I must say that I don't get the spoiler about Felicity and Diggle not being sold on Roy and wanting him off the team, because Felicity lied to protect the latter. If she had a problem with him, imo she would have told him to his face instead of shielding him...she never minced her words with Oliver. I'm a bit puzzled.

 

I'm not some "ewww, yuck ship!" fanatic. I don't think that romantic storylines are the antichrist, actually I like a good romance. But I don't like messy, I don't like unealthy, and I don't like the idea that there has to be a rival.  My most satisfying experience both as a fan of a show and a shipper is the X-files. Because they never cheapened the Mulder/Scully relationship: they were always each other's rock, there was no interloper in the relationship or any False Romantic Lead (even the Foul One, imo, was never competition) and at the end of the day or the episode nothing could compare to the respect, trust and understanding -and latter, plain love- that existed between them. I -happily, more or less- waited for 7 seasons for a first kiss, but I would have been long gone by S4, had there  been a merry-go-round of love interests and other cliché bullshit.

I believe that Arrow is strong enough of a show and has enough going on to avoid going that cliché road, and I regret that it seems to take it.

Oh! Maybe they name the baby Sara, and that's the double meaning!

Oh, good one! I'd have thought of something along the lines of Olivia Joy (=Felicity)...too fanficcy, right?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[At Leisure]

Emily posted this photo of her and BR

http://instagram.com/p/qpGoR2CKQF/?modal=true

BR looks suspicious and EBR looks angry and since EBR said 'this will be us for a while', I'm guessing Ray wil be suspicious of/have doubts about Felicity in the beginning. And she might be angry at/frustrated with him initially.

So they won't be hitting it off from the get go...I kinda like that there relationship will probably be stretched out throughout the season instead of a hurried, jump-in-the-sack kind. Here's hoping that the way Ray/Felcity evolove would not all be about romance but character growth as well.

I can hardly wait for Oct now...oh and the baby is jusht sho cute.

Edited July 19, 2014 by At Leisure

[statsgirl]

Easiest name for the baby -- Andrea.  I hope they're more creative than that.

 

I'm now thinking it was pretty clever to title the episode 'Sara' because it's providing lots of food for speculation.

Exactly, if you're like me and don't care about shipping, Felicity getting a placeholder love interest is not that interesting.

I do care about shipping and I still don't find Felicity getting a placeholder love interest, which is why I'm hoping it's more about Oliver and taking over QC than about Felicity. They pimped the heck out of Barry/Felicity and in the end it turned out to be more about Barry's reactions to Oliver and finding out he's The Arrow, and Oliver's reactions to Barry and his secret being out than a relationship for Felicity. By the time they got to Oliver being angry Felicity was spending time in Central City,  Barry was long gone.

 

Having Felicity go to Central City in ep 4, and mutual cross-overs in eps 8 kind of weakens the love interest effect. too

 

Sara could have been more than a placeholder love interest for Oliver if the writers had spent more time on their relationship and how they were with each other, two emotionally wounded vigilantes but with different ideas about fighting. But too much time was spent on the effect on Laurel and on Slade and setting up the season finale.  It would have been interesting to see what Oliver was like in a relationship with Sara, as opposed to how he was with McKenna or Helena or in the past with Laurel..

 

Felicity's spoilers may be about her being a love interest but then they write her as needling Slade and all awesome on the team so I don't mind.  That much.

[apinknightmare]

Oh! Maybe they name the baby Sara, and that's the double meaning!

 

Could be! Although there would have to be a reason, since Diggle and Sara don't seem to be close enough to where he'd name his daughter after her. Maybe Sara saves Digg and/or Lyla's lives? Delivers the baby? Or the EPs named the baby Sara so they could name the episode Sara and get us talking for a while.

[Starfish35]

Could be! Although there would have to be a reason, since Diggle and Sara don't seem to be close enough to where he'd name his daughter after her. Maybe Sara saves Digg and/or Lyla's lives? Delivers the baby?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - Sara saves their lives or something, so they name the baby after her.

[apinknightmare]

Yup this is what I'm thinking as well. I really wish they didn't have to have any conflict at all but if it must happen, prefer it being born out of Oliver wanting Diggle to be alive to see his daughter grow up. 

 

Also Dig's baby girl is too cute!! I was thinking the baby would be a girl and I'm glad that I was right! She's adorable. 

 

I hope that's it. Whenever I read that there's conflict between Oliver and someone else, I always assume it's because Oliver's acting like an asshat, haha.

[icandigit]

 

I must say that I don't get the spoiler about Felicity and Diggle not being sold on Roy and wanting him off the team, because Felicity lied to protect the latter.

That spoiler made no sense. I just don't see how that could happen.

Edited July 19, 2014 by icandigit

[stormborn]

 

I want Sara/Felicity and a Felicity/Lyla friendship so bad -oh, have them come together and protect Diggirl. And I really want Thea/Felicity to interact at some point.

 

I wanted Sara/Felicity friendshippy moments so badly but the show never delivered. Also Felicity and Lyla seem like they would make fast friends so I hope we see that this season. 

 

But the fact of the matter is that the show doesn't prioritize POSITIVE female friendships/dynamics at all and that bothers me. We've seen Oliver/Diggle bonding moments over these last two seasons, there is no reason why we couldn't have seen the same with Felicity and Sara. That's something else the show needs to work on. 

[Velocity23]

Apparently Emily is getting stronger :), her trainer tweeted she did her first full chin up today. Makes me wonder if she wants to do the Salmon ladder :)

Edited July 19, 2014 by Velocity23

[Sakura12]

Could be! Although there would have to be a reason, since Diggle and Sara don't seem to be close enough to where he'd name his daughter after her. Maybe Sara saves Digg and/or Lyla's lives? Delivers the baby? Or the EPs named the baby Sara so they could name the episode Sara and get us talking for a while.

 

I'm just hoping Sara doesn't die saving their lives and that's why they name their daughter after her. 

 

Apparently Emily is getting stronger :), her trainer tweeted she did her first full chin up today. Makes me wonder if she wants to do the Salmon ladder :)

 

Everyone wants to do the Salmon Ladder now that CL and Kacy Catanzaro did it. I'm even more impressed even though CL only did two rungs, with only having had a week or two to practice in-between filming to do it.

[Starfish35]

I'm just hoping Sara doesn't die saving their lives and that's why they name their daughter after her. 

I know, that crossed my mind too. I'm not as worried about it since AK's interview with TVGuide saying they hoped they had CL for more than three episodes, but I haven't totally ruled it out either.

[Orion]

It confuses me when people worry about the romance taking over the show, even in the most heavily romance arced episodes the actual time spent on the love story beats is always under 10 minutes at most. So even with commercials that's still well over 30 minutes of the show devoted to things other than the romance. Olicity fandom was a force by the time season 2 started and the writers have always managed to keep a tight hold on their story so far. Could that change in up coming seasons? Of course but that's a failure of the writers and show runners not the people watching it and getting excited over the romance. The spoilers that are leaked to the press are designed to get people talking and excited about next season, they are given to feed the buzz beast and with Arrow the part of the fandom that generates the most talk is the Olicity fans, so that is what they are feeding. Just reading the response Matt from tv line gave about the person asking about Felicity story, his inbox was full of people asking about the date. Media sites want page views, producers want excitement and shippers want news it's just a mutual back scratching using spoilers. But Arrow the show hasn't shown any indications of giving over large story arcs of their show to a romance. So I wouldn't let the type of spoilers being released effect my interest in the show. At this stage it is just PR.

There are two problems that I see setting up Felicity friendships with anyone, male or female. 1) I don't think Felicity would be happy in any relationship where she has to lie to someone everyday. Oliver is the king of compartmentalizations but Felicity isn't. She's not a natural liar (ie questioned by Det. Lance) so in order for her to be happy, and that is my number one concern for her, the person has to be in the know about who she works for and what she does in her "night job". And 2) all roads have to lead back to Oliver for this show. The only person who got a stand alone friend was Laurel with Joanna and the writers quickly wrote her off when they ditched the Lauliver stuff in s1 because Joanna never had enough to do in the show. The same for Carly. Even Layla is useful to Oliver for her argus connection. And that's not even including my personal list which includes has not seen Oliver naked., age appropriate, with common interest. When you start putting those kinda limits on a character even before they are written it makes it really hard to have a viable friendship for Felicity that is all about her and I think why we are getting multipurpose love interests and I'm okay with that because multi-use characters arent just about roadblocks.

[Password]

There are two problems that I see setting up Felicity friendships with anyone, male or female. 1) I don't think Felicity would be happy in any relationship where she has to lie to someone everyday. Oliver is the king of compartmentalizations but Felicity isn't... the person has to be in the know about who she works for and what she does in her "night job".

 

I'm with you. I even think the relationship would fail right off the bat because of the secrets and running off to do Arrow business.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[statsgirl]

CL is booked for 3 episodes and they said they'd like her for more; Diggle's baby looks like it's about 2 or 3 months old in the first episode of the season so she's had her name for some time.  Unless they plan on only having Sara in flashbacks, it doesn't look like she's going to die saving the baby.

 

 

We've seen Oliver/Diggle bonding moments over these last two seasons

That's about Oliver though.  Other than Teen Arrow, which was brief and probably doesn't exist any more, no one who isn't Oliver gets bonding moments.  As Orion said, even Joanna, Laurel's friend, disappeared this year except as a plot contrivance.  I'd like to see Felicity and Lyla get along but I don't think they would be friends outside of the Diggle social connection because they're at such different places in their lives as the sociologists like to say (Lyla has seen duty in Afghanistan, been married and divorced and now has a child whereas Felicity is single and world-wise unknowing.

Edited July 19, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

 

The spoilers that are leaked to the press are designed to get people talking and excited about next season, they are given to feed the buzz beast and with Arrow the part of the fandom that generates the most talk is the Olicity fans, so that is what they are feeding.

Yeah. I agree. I kinda thought they were using the romance spoilers as a diversion tactic. Because so far I feel I don't know what is going to happen for the main story. Because the real question is not date or no date etc, but what  happened that made Oliver do a 180 on what he planned? It couldn't be one of their run of the mill missions. How did Waller get Oliver to behave as her pet and what his circumstances in Hong Kong look like.

[Password]

Because the real question is not date or no date etc, but what  happened that made Oliver do a 180 on what he planned? It couldn't be one of their run of the mill missions. How did Waller get Oliver to behave as her pet and what his circumstances in Hong Kong look like.

 

That to me is the far more important question regarding the date. Why I'm highly annoyed about the comics thing but anyway.

 

I think the Hong Kong flashbacks will be really good, not just because they've left the island, but I think Oliver's character really takes its knocks there.

[BkWurm1]

That photo EBR posted really has me thinking about not only the nature of Ray and Felicity's relationship,  but also the capacity in which they are interacting.

 

Felicity (I'm going with Felicity and Ray rather than Emily and Brandon since they seem to be telegraphing their characters) seems utterly frustrated in the throw hands up in the air, there is no pleasing that man but not mad like she would be when dealing with an enemy.  Ray looks a little bit stoic and a lot smug.  They mentioned writing dialog for the two that lets them give and take with the banter so while it seems obvious that Ray and Felicity will be at odds, it seems more like Ray is going to be more amused than upset. 

 

Going back to the question of why Felicity is so frustrated.  I think it is clear that she is going to be working for him in some capacity.  That look screams idiot boss to me.  I had a flash of terror that Ray might have mandated she come back as his assistant to explain the confusion that Oliver would have left as CEO but I couldn't take that even if she was only his assistant temporarily so hopefully she will land a job in the R&D department and he keeps demanding the impossible but she needs the money so she can't quit. 

 

Because the real question is not date or no date etc, but what  happened that made Oliver do a 180 on what he planned?

 

Sure this is the most pivotal question which is why chances are we will not find out until the episode.  They have to save something for the episode.

 

I'm fine with Felicity getting a love interest since he isn't just a love interest.  Ray is going to relate to the whole arc of the season.  He's not just there Jimmy Olsen style to get the fan favorite a boyfriend.  Plus I love watching Felicity so this gives her another reason beyond Team Arrow to be on my screen.  I'm trusting the show right now not to mess up the slow burn formula with Oliver and Felicity.  Three years in they are due for a flare up but it's not time yet for a full on relationship so while Ray is a False Romantic Interest, he serves other purposes and he's happening early enough in the timeline that some Atomic Smoak does not feel like a ridiculous plot contrivance just to keep Smoak and Arrow apart.   

[poetgirl925]

Ha I really hated Jimmy Olsen lol, and not because I wanted Chloe with anyone else. I just thought the way they involved him was a waste of screen time. Then S8 sucked so badly I quit the show for a while. But like others here, I'm not really getting the impression it's just romance or he's a ridiculously contrived placeholder like Hannah in Bones S6 (quit there too for storytelling reasons.) I hope I'm not wrong. I think with the picture EBR posted that it's safe to say she's working at QC in some capacity. It's the only way I can think of that she and Ray would be thrown into each other's orbit enough to merit a relationship developing. R & D would be okay or IT (IT girl seems like going backwards though.) I'll accept assistant if Felicity is doing it for some specific reason like keeping an eye on Ray, but it's my least favorite scenario and I'll have to assume Ray might not be that smart, particularly if he's aware Felicity has a friendship with Oliver. It feels like it will be more complicated than strictly romance with Ray's involvement with QC and his secret plans for the science division. And with Oliver trying to get the company back and being interested in Felicity, all plots tie back to him in some way. There's also room for some significant character growth for Felicity and Oliver. Execution could dim my interest but right now I'm looking forward to it.

Edited July 20, 2014 by poetgirl925

[pootlus]

Perhaps she's 'undercover' - as in, still being Felicity but pretending to have had a falling out with Oliver, which may also offer a reasonable explanation of why they don't go ahead with the date after having worked out the plan.

 

After having put her life in danger to get the Mirakuru cure into Slade, schmoozing up to Ray will be child's play for her.  Perhaps she starts off not wanting to like him but he grows on her.

[tv echo]

That is one cute baby.

 

The complaints of romance taking over the show only seem to come up in connection with Oliver and Felicity.  I don't recall any similar complaints in Season 1 which had a season-long romantic triangle among Oliver, Laurel and Tommy.  I also don't recall any similar complaints when the relationship between Oliver and Sara seemed to take over half of Season 2.

 

Hmm... what story line would make Laurel fans "very, very happy"?  How about this (all speculation based on spoilers)?  To help pay the bills, Oliver gets a job at a new fitness & boxing gym.  Partly because she doesn't want to get kidnapped (again), and partly to get closer to Oliver, Laurel joins this gym and starts training.  She meets the gym owner, a rough-around-the-edges former boxing champion, Ted Grant, who used to box under the moniker Wildcat.  Ted starts training Laurel and they engage in Hepburn & Tracy-like bickering because they're so different (she's snooty and he's more earthy).  When Oliver - who's still enamored of his shiny new toy of the moment Felicity (how KC and her fans would describe O/F) - rejects Laurel's attempt to reconnect romantically with him, Laurel turns to Ted for comfort.  They start dating and fall for each other.  However, probably at the end of Season 3, Ted (her trainer and lover) is murdered and his killer is set free on a legal technicality.  Laurel is distraught ("Everyone leave me! Wah!") and vows vengeance.  She tracks down and kills Ted's murderer in cold blood.  Oliver finds out, but covers it up to protect her.  In Season 4, in Ted's memory, Laurel trains even more fiercely and starts taking part in Oliver's crime-fighting outings.  Having inherited Sara's canary cry device, she uses that to make up for her fighting inadequacies.  She becomes even more ruthless than Sara and becomes known as the Black Canary in Season 5.  By then, the O/F romance is over, Laurel and Oliver have become close again as crime-fighting partners and occasional romantic hook-ups.  Ta da!  Can't you just see the EPs going that route?

Edited July 20, 2014 by tv echo

[At Leisure]

@tv echo I can totally see this happening. I mean the circumstances might be different but the essence can totally work...for the EPs.

You have, in a very insightful and entertaining way, given my wishful thinking (on the Oliver/Felicity front) a reality check.

Something on these lines is bound to happen since the EPs are 'really excited about Laurel this season'. Again.

Maybe part of the reason they're pairing Felicity up with Ray is to nip any and all chances of an Oliver/Felicity romance in the bud.

If Ray/Felicity click...Im not complaining...I mean I want nothing more than Oliver/Felicity to be endgame but this show is more than just who works well, romantically, with whom. I just hope that all the recent emphasis on dates and love interests is a marketing thing and they have some really good story lines, character arcs/developments in store as well.

[FurryFury]

Wow, that's a disturbingly realistic scenario.

 

The complaints of romance taking over the show only seem to come up in connection with Oliver and Felicity.  I don't recall any similar complaints in Season 1 which had a season-long romantic triangle among Oliver, Laurel and Tommy.  I also don't recall any similar complaints when the relationship between Oliver and Sara seemed to take over half of Season 2.

 

Eh, not really. I hated the Laurel-centric triangle in s1, but it still didn't feel like a big part of the show - in fact, I ignored it and tuned out during their scenes, and it didn't really influence anything. Oliver/Felicity will-they-or-won't they is a much bigger part of the show, because they are partners, and it does have a good chance of changing the Team Arrow dynamic (I'll argue it already has been changed because so many Team Arrow scenes in season 2 were mostly Olicity teasing with Diggle in the background).

 

Also, to be honest, I like Felicity way too much to sic Oliver on her - his behavior in the second half of s2 has really soured me on his character. The "I love you" to Felicity so soon after breaking up with Sara (yeah it was fake, but it was implied to be more than that), his handling of Thea, being a total hypocritical dick with his mother... I think Felicity deserves better at this point. 

Oh, and I definitely feel that Oliver/Sara *is* an example of romance overtaking the show because it made the character behave in the service of the plot. Truthfully, even a casual hook-up would have been a stretch at that point, not actual dating. I just hated that story.

Edited July 20, 2014 by FurryFury

[Password]

@FurryFury How do I give you three hundred thumbs up? It just isn't allowing me to do it.

[poetgirl925]

The problem is not one particular ship vs. another, it's the network. CW shows always build this type of thing into their plots. Arrow likes to think it's different but it's really not. It's just not the whole show. No matter who Oliver's romantic interest is we're going to see focus on it but it's not like it's taking up half of every episode. That point was made earlier in this thread. If Laurel is in the lair and they go the Lauriver route again, I'd expect to see that shoving Felicity, Roy and Diggle into the background at times - Sara too if she's around. It probably would have happened in S1 if she'd known his secret. If he's dating Sara then she gets more screen time because she's on the team and has her family and they have to show the relationship as well. We didn't see as much Sara/Oliver as I expected but that's because it wasn't meant to be a long term ship. But if they had been looking for a way to slow down Lauriver or Sariver, we would have seen the same thing except with a twist on characters.

The difference with Felicity is that if Felicity gets screen time it's really only with two people. It's with Diggle or Oliver or both of them. Who gets more screen time? Oliver - it's his show. That's not her fault it's because her world is restricted. They used her for humor and to relay information most of the time in S1. Then in S2 they built her partnership with Oliver the same way they did with Diggle in S1 except they also needed to set the stage for (perhaps) going the romance route. Diggle's world was also restricted to Oliver at one time although I think we'll see a little more of his own family life and story now. We got more of his story in S2. He actually had some substantial story plots and it looks like he will again in S3. We might see him more in his own world because he has a life, but it doesn't mean he's always being pushed into the background. If we have Diggle and Oliver bonding then everyone else gets shoved into the background for those scenes. Now in S3 Felicity's world will be expanding and the team is expanding. Does that mean it's her fault if we don't see Oliver and Diggle bonding in every episode? I miss the central three time and I miss Oliver and Diggle time, but it's a balancing act more than anything. They have too much story to tell and have to squeeze those romantic beats into a few minutes of each episode because it's the CW and that won't change no matter who Oliver is involved with. Now that we'll see Felicity with Roy and Ray as well, we may see less Diggle/Felicity time. My hope is that the Arrowcave will still be the original three most of time and they'll balance their time together better in S3, but if it doesn't happen then I won't blame Felicity. I'll blame the producers for biting off more than they can chew just like they did last season. If they all stay single and there's no focus on outside relationships then we can see Team Arrow bonding all the time. (This will never happen. We all know it.) If Olicity is written well, I don't see any reason why the central three dynamic has to change significantly, no more than it will change by Diggle having Lyla and the baby.

Edited July 20, 2014 by poetgirl925

[statsgirl]

tv echo, that is a very scary scenario.  But I don't think it's going to happen because, as Alan Sepinwall said, the addition of Felicity has changed the show.  The core of the show is now Team Arrow rather than Oliver and Diggle fighting crime with his girlfriend lawyer Laurel Lance, which I imagine was the original idea.  What caused all the talk after the series finale?  Oliver's scenes with Felicity, and the jacket handover, the latter getting as many negative comments as positive.  Unless they really trash Felicity's character and improve Laurel, I think the fan uproar at Oliver dumping Felicity for Laurel would be nasty.

 

The EPs comments on Laurel for next season have been about her being 'a lawyer with a jacket' (AK) and putting criminals in jail and getting a new love interest (MC).  While I'm not looking forward to either of those, well maybe the love interest if it takes her attention away from Oliver, it's noticeable that they're not talking about her joining Team Arrow.

 

I do like the idea of Oliver getting a temporary job at the boxing ring.  Non-standard hours so he can still try to get QC back and keep his night job.

[slayer2]

Sorry if you can't see that properly, it says:

Laurel Lance played by Katie Cassidy. Laurel finally learned of ex-beau Oliver's extracurricular activities ;ate in season 2 - news that she took much better than the revelation that he had been sleeping with her sister Sara (Caity Lotz) when the Queen's Gambit sunk. Now she's a recovering addict whose gig in the DA's office is sure to benefit them both. "He's [catching] criminals and she is sending them to prison," says executive producer Andrew Kreisberg. "There is more of a 'Hey, we're doing this together.'"

Sounds awesome! She's a lawyer, makes perfect sense. I predict awesomeness for season 3. Awesomeness.

[FAU]

 

Unless they really trash Felicity's character and improve Laurel, I think the fan uproar at Oliver dumping Felicity for Laurel would be nasty.

 

They would do that, it would complete the character propping with what they've done so far.

[slayer2]

Season 2 Laurel was definitely propping Felicity so I'm not seeing that at all. I'm glad Laurel will be working with Team Arrow on the Government side it just makes sense, and with her dad as Captain, even better. They'll need all the help they can get with the new crop of villains coming in who seem to have more than martial arts going for them.

Edited July 20, 2014 by slayer2

[BkWurm1]

I'm glad Laurel will be working with Team Arrow on the Government side it just makes sense, and with her dad as Captain, even better. They'll need all the help they can get with the new crop of villains coming in who seem to have more than martial arts going for them

I agree. Laurel in the DA's office makes perfect sense and between the inside information she can feed Arrow and the help the police can do and what they can share, Arrow's job should be a bit smother this season.

Season 2 Laurel was definitely propping Felicity

I honestly can't think of anytime Laurel propped up Felicity. Could you expand on your thought? I remember her being used to kinda prop up Sara and Oliver with the advice she handed out to both of them but not for anyone else.

[TanyaKay]

That photo EBR posted really has me thinking about not only the nature of Ray and Felicity's relationship,  but also the capacity in which they are interacting.

 

Felicity (I'm going with Felicity and Ray rather than Emily and Brandon since they seem to be telegraphing their characters) seems utterly frustrated in the throw hands up in the air, there is no pleasing that man but not mad like she would be when dealing with an enemy.  Ray looks a little bit stoic and a lot smug.  They mentioned writing dialog for the two that lets them give and take with the banter so while it seems obvious that Ray and Felicity will be at odds, it seems more like Ray is going to be more amused than upset. 

 

Going back to the question of why Felicity is so frustrated.  I think it is clear that she is going to be working for him in some capacity.  That look screams idiot boss to me.  I had a flash of terror that Ray might have mandated she come back as his assistant to explain the confusion that Oliver would have left as CEO but I couldn't take that even if she was only his assistant temporarily so hopefully she will land a job in the R&D department and he keeps demanding the impossible but she needs the money so she can't quit.   

 

One of the press releases do mention that Ray Palmer would have special interest in setting up QC's Applied Sciences Division so I am assuming that he would be interacting with Felicity regarding that - the fact that she worked closely with former CEO would also help. I am just hoping - rather desperately I may add - that they do not make her new CEO's EA. I know they will have to invest in making another set for Felicity's office instead of seating her just outside the CEO's office but please, don't make the smartest person on the show a glorified secretary. We have had that 'Girl Friday/Wednesday' thing on the show already ... can we now move on?

[TanyaKay]

The difference with Felicity is that if Felicity gets screen time it's really only with two people. It's with Diggle or Oliver or both of them. Who gets more screen time? Oliver - it's his show. That's not her fault it's because her world is restricted. They used her for humor and to relay information most of the time in S1. Then in S2 they built her partnership with Oliver the same way they did with Diggle in S1 except they also needed to set the stage for (perhaps) going the romance route. Diggle's world was also restricted to Oliver at one time although I think we'll see a little more of his own family life and story now. We got more of his story in S2. He actually had some substantial story plots and it looks like he will again in S3. We might see him more in his own world because he has a life, but it doesn't mean he's always being pushed into the background. If we have Diggle and Oliver bonding then everyone else gets shoved into the background for those scenes. Now in S3 Felicity's world will be expanding and the team is expanding. Does that mean it's her fault if we don't see Oliver and Diggle bonding in every episode? I miss the central three time and I miss Oliver and Diggle time, but it's a balancing act more than anything. They have too much story to tell and have to squeeze those romantic beats into a few minutes of each episode because it's the CW and that won't change no matter who Oliver is involved with. Now that we'll see Felicity with Roy and Ray as well, we may see less Diggle/Felicity time. My hope is that the Arrowcave will still be the original three most of time and they'll balance their time together better in S3, but if it doesn't happen then I won't blame Felicity. I'll blame the producers for biting off more than they can chew just like they did last season. If they all stay single and there's no focus on outside relationships then we can see Team Arrow bonding all the time. (This will never happen. We all know it.) If Olicity is written well, I don't see any reason why the central three dynamic has to change significantly, no more than it will change by Diggle having Lyla and the baby.

 

They could've managed to save a lot of time by chopping off 60% scenes of Lance family drama and Laurel Lance and her stupid choices in life. That would've left plenty of room to tell the stories that matter. Most of the well received episodes were ones where there was little or no Laurel Lance. It is producers' weird attachment to that one character which is obviously not working that is harming the story telling process and nothing else.

[slayer2]

I agree. Laurel in the DA's office makes perfect sense and between the inside information she can feed Arrow and the help the police can do and what they can share, Arrow's job should be a bit smother this season.

I honestly can't think of anytime Laurel propped up Felicity. Could you expand on your thought? I remember her being used to kinda prop up Sara and Oliver with the advice she handed out to both of them but not for anyone else.

For sure, I'll take it to the Laurel thread.

[Danny Franks]

See, I don't think so. I think Sara/Oliver was a symptom already - an artificially created relationship that didn't really stem from their characterizations, created only as an obstacle for Olicity (in an EP's own words, basically). And now we get Ray - an obvious Romantic False Lead (see TVTropes). It's textbook romance writing, boring and unimaginative. It still works if you ship the main couple, but if you don't, it really seems you have to quit the show. At least I feel so.

 

I do 'ship the main couple, but I'm still not going to be watching season 3, at this rate. I have no interest in romantic shenanigans overtaking the show, and all of the tedious angst and miscommunication that writers alway, always fall back on for this bullshit. I've never seen a show manage to balance actual plot and romantic development, and I doubt I ever will. Writers spend too much time figuring out new ways to stop their characters getting together, and it ends up ruining both characters, and usually the show as well.

 

The fact that it's Brandon Routh, the man whose love interest character came this close to killing Chuck for good? Well that's just the shit-flavoured icing on the cake. This just seems like it would be more of a chore to watch than an enjoyable experience.

[tv echo]

Mildly spoilerish...

 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/GraphicCity/news/?a=103977

 

Link to Michael Rowe's tweet:

https://twitter.com/Captain_Rowe/status/489879488537182208/photo/1

Edited July 21, 2014 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I've seen speculation that the show would recast Jean Loring as a younger woman in order to fulfill the Comics story.  I've also seen suggestions that they'll have Jean's daughter, also named Jean Loring who is also a lawyer show up and be Ray's girlfriend...I don't like either of those speculations.  I don't think either are necessary since the show makes changes all the time so I think twisting the story up just to try and get that Ray/Jean story in would be a waste.  

 

That being said, they also claimed they would address Isabel Rochev being on The List and they never did (sorry, Robert sleeping with Isabel isn't a reason for her to be on the list as part of The Undertaking).

[tv echo]

This article plus MR's tweet --> Deadshot returns in Ep. 3-"Corto Maltese"?

 

Arrow Season Three Episode Three Title Reveals a Visit To a Familiar DC Comics Locale

http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/07/19/arrow-season-three-episode-three-title-reveals-a-visit-to-a-fami/

Edited July 21, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

 

I don't think either are necessary since the show makes changes all the time so I think twisting the story up just to try and get that Ray/Jean story in would be a waste.

I agree - I think sometimes it's enough to just have the characters be somewhat familiar to comic book fans without having so squeeze in all of the connections, epecially if it doesn't make sense or requires a re-write & re-cast.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

This probably belongs in about five different topics. I do miss the days of TWOP when everything was in one post. So I offer my apologies now.

I don't want Felicity to get a back story. This is for two different reasons.

A) Oliver met Felicity after his time on the island. Which means we don't need three episodes dedicated to her life before him. The journey is Oliver's which means we only need to see Felicity's history as it pertains to her life with Oliver in it. No one meets a new friend and sits down and gives their whole life story. The idea is we learn about Felicity as Oliver does. If her history is pertinent to the current story line then I'd expect it to be organically worked in. Example: her dilemma in telling Oliver about Malcolm being Thea's father. It was a line but one line explained why Felicity is so loyal - she has abandonment issues. I personally don't want an hour dedicated to scratching off the scabs of Felicity's emotional scars over her father's leaving.

The Russian episode served two purposes. Digg's back story was also a part of the current story line. Lyla and Waller have an ongoing presence, but also a history with Oliver. The Russian episode also served as a speed bump to the Olicity pairing. The Digg portion of the Russian episode was good. It furthered the story. His history was also part of the present which meant it had a place. It wasn't a very special Digg episode for the sake of having one. It continued the story and was a good set-up for later on in the season.

(I'm ignoring the Russian hookup because I believe this is a good example of "we need a speed bump on the road to Olicity" and pulling ish out of thin air to create a speed bump. The speed bump was made of foam so it was a poorly constructed speed bump and everyone reacted with a WTF is it there versus actually slowing down.)

B) Let's talk about the writer's ability to create good back story. They don't have it. These are the same "writers" who believe an epic love affair began with Oliver cheating with Laurel's sister. It wasn't that he cheated once; he was a serial cheater. Who then "killed" Sara by his cheating ways. Then he comes back from the dead to sleep with Laurel when her bed was still warm from Tommy. I do believe S2 started with Oliver very much in the head space of attempting to pick up with Laurel. She shut it down. Sara returns and Oliver hardly wastes any time in getting back in bed with her. Still Laurel is the one who knows him better than anyone.

I don't want the writers to ruin Felicity. Give them too much time to think about a back story for Felicity and no doubt they'll weaken what is one of the better characters on a show. If the writers were trying to hit tennis balls with arrows, there would be a whole lot of bouncing tennis balls. They don't hit 9 out of 10; they are averaging 2/3 out of 10. When they don't create the WTFery of complex back story, they are capable of 5/6 out of 10.

Concerning the Ray spoilers.

Has it been confirmed he is an actual love interest of Felicity? I guess what I'm asking is are they going to attempt a relationship or is he going to be interested and Felicity finds she can't have a relationship outside of Oliver? I almost see Team Arrow being like co-stars on a movie shoot. You don't have time to just go out and meet people or date someone you already know. I think it is why co-stars fall in love all the time. Digg has Lyla but she is in on the secret. She "knows" where her man is. Digg and Carly didn't work. Unless Felicity can come up with really great excuses, she won't work with anyone who doesn't know the secret either. Barry could have worked except he has his own show. Lance would be a viable option because she knows about his involvement, but NO! Unless Felicity is going to be absent from the Team Arrow, I don't see how a relationship will work for her.

I am also out if we are going to begin S3 with Oliver wanting a relationship with Felicity and then chickening out. I'm assuming this gives Felicity opportunity to date someone else (which is destined to fail) and Oliver will enjoy the company of other ladies while wanting more with Felicity. By the end of S3 I can see them trying to pick it back up and something catastrophic changes things between them again.

I don't know why writers believe keeping a couple apart is good TV. IRL tragedy causes people to realize who they want in their life and appreciate any and all time they have together. After a tragedy you hear all the time about people who take the jump they were scared to because they realized they might not have tomorrow to find their courage.

I am torn on this show. A part of me hates it, but like a train wreck I can't look away. There is just enough to keep me watching, but I think it is moments the writers are expecting. They talk up these "huge" episodes and these "life-changing" moments and those suck. It is a minute thirty within a forty-two minute show which keeps me hooked. Although it could be the really well-written fanfic keeping my interest. Dang fandoms with talented writers.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Lisin
fixed formatting

[BkWurm1]

Mildly spoilerish...

 

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/GraphicCity/news/?a=103977

I've learned to kinda hate comic book movie.com. It's never more than rehashed stories badly put together by fanboys that cobble it from other sources usually with a clear bias. In this case they use the season one show description but put it together with the 2014 season three cast info (or at least part of the cast list since it's crossed out and added stuff). Either they are too lazy to match the correct info or they just don't like the direction of the show implied by the summary and so chose the old, old one.

I always wonder how this site shows up as news. It has for years and they never have anything original.

Sorry, ongoing pet peeve.

I don't want Felicity to get a back story. This is for two different reasons.

A) Oliver met Felicity after his time on the island. Which means we

don't need three episodes dedicated to her life before him. The

journey is Oliver's which means we only need to see Felicity's history

as it pertains to her life with Oliver in it. No one meets a new

friend and sits down and gives their whole life story. The idea is we

learn about Felicity as Oliver does. If her history is pertinent to

the current story line then I'd expect it to be organically worked in.

Any Felicity flashback should be relevant to the story or episode IMO which would/should involve Oliver but I don't need it to strictly relate to Oliver's life. We've known Felicity for close to two years. It's more than time to find out more about her life story even if it is only because she has a problem that Oliver would want to help her solve.

She's not an extra sucking up screen time. We the audience should know at least as much about her as we do the other characters. It's a risk letting the writers have a shot at mucking up her backstory but it's one I think has to be taken if the alternative is to live with a near complete vacuum. We know the character but it's time we know stuff about her beyond place of birth, where she went to college, and that kangaroos creep her out.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

As this is Oliver's show Felicity's moments moving forward concern Oliver until they no longer are partners. What happens when a character story exists outside of Oliver? Complaints of Lance family drama taking up too much time.

What I'm saying is that Felicity's back story doesn't need a spotlight. Her back story will be filled in as needed. Everyone loves Felicity and she is an enigma. However I disagree she lives in a vacuum. I hear she isn't well-developed. She is far more consistent than most of the characters. She had one OOC episode which clearly was a contrivance with the Clock King. Every other character exists with multiple OOC.

What do we know about Felicity? She is intelligent, went to MIT, grew up in Vegas, knows computers better than people, likes color in her wardrobe, has no filter, believes in the good in people, is a human lie detector, is willing to commit crimes for the good of Starling City, isn't afraid to counter Oliver when she disagrees, supports her friends, is willing to risk everything rather than lie to someone. Sometimes it isn't a back story which develops a character but the character's actions. Maybe at the right moment we will find out why she isn't afraid to stand up to Oliver or how she got so good at detecting lies.

I don't see the need for an episode which can become overlooked like all the Lance family drama episodes just for the sake of having one. My preference would be a scene with Digg or Oliver in which she connects with them. Maybe a scene about growing up without a father. Far more can be accomplished in a single scene than an entire episode if the episode is easy to forget or becomes a symbol (exploding wine glass) than actual character development.

Edited July 21, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[dtissagirl]

I wanna learn more about Felicity outside of the Arrowcave, but I also don't want it to be isolated from Oliver and Diggle. I really like how Lyla and Deadshot enriched Dig's backstory because we learn more about him through Team Arrow's present-time narrative + flashbacks. If they can manage an episode in which, say, Team Arrow needs to save Felicity's mother from an evil mob Vegas dude, that'd be a way to learn more about Felicity through Oliver and Dig going into her territory and learning more about her themselves.

 

I'm also keeping my fingers crossed for maybe Felicity and Ray Palmer already knowing each other from their MIT days, because giving them history helps us learn more about Felicity when they interact in the current storyline.

[Starfish35]

Reply to AnalyzeAndCritique moved to Hopes & Fears thread.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[Lisin]

Hey gang, lets try to keep on topic please. Most of this Felicity stuff isn't spoiler spec. Thanks. 

[Velocity23]

Interview with Colton Haynes with Zap2it

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/arrow_season_3s_colton_haynes_roy_harper_arsenal_mirakuru_and_olicity-2014-07