Spoiler Discussion Thread

[dtissagirl]

Paul Blackthorne mentioned somewhere that Quentin doesn't like it that Laurel's vigilante-ing, so he'll learn about THAT sooner rather than later, but what's bugging me is that him knowing Laurel is BC doesn't necessarily mean learning about Sara. Grrr. #PleaseTellQuentin2k15

[Princess Vanellope]

If Laurel only suits up to fool Quentin, I will be irate! Seriously, dressing up as your dead sister so your dad can catch a glimpse of you and think said sister is still living? No, nuh uh. That right there is worthy of several months of serious therapy. Sick, sick, sick.

I really hope this isn't the case. Quentin deserves to be treated like the adult he is. She needs to tell him the truth, and soon. Although I really wonder if he finds out from Sin somehow in 312.

[Sakura12]

For me dressing up goes from just not telling him to actively deceiving him. She would be giving him hope that Sara's alive, so when he does find out the truth he'll be even more distraught to learn that Sara's been dead for months and he didn't know about it and didn't get to properly bury and mourn her.

 

But of course he'll probably be "Go Laurel! Thank you for finding (by taking boxing lessons and letting other people do the actual work) Sara's killer. Go be vigilante just like her, but put Black in front your name because the comics say so!"

Edited December 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[calliope1975]

Re: Suzanne Gomez's tweets - "brilliant" is never a term I would use about Arrow's writers, so I'm going to adopt a wait and see attitude. And yes, I'm really bummed that my ridiculous enthusiasm during 2A has been reduced to skeptical disbelief that the show might be good again.

[dtissagirl]

She's making me yawn so hard.

[apinknightmare]

Tweeting praise about two of the more unpopular characters. Bless her, she's doing her job.

[BkWurm1]

For me dressing up goes from just not telling him to actively deceiving him. She would be giving him hope that Sara's alive,

 

But isn't she already doing that now?  Telling him that Sara is alive when she's not?  Telling him she off backpacking in the Andes when she's six feet under?  Telling everyone BUT him that Sara is dead?  In my book she's already so far over the line that dressing up barely nudges the needle. 

[wonderwall]

Bless Ms. Gomez for doing her job :p I hope the writing and acting for laurel gets better. I've always felt like KC could play a badass, so hopefully the writers give her that. Just badass with no nuance because KC isn't that good Imo.

As for the backpacking thing, I think that was a lie more for Dinah than Quentin. Idk. I just feel like dressing up is just taking it further than it should actually go. It's just worse imo. It makes laurel an irredeemable ass but we all know she won't really suffer the consequences of her lies. Which is really disappointing to me.

[apinknightmare]

Bless Ms. Gomez for doing her job :p I hope the writing and acting for laurel gets better. I've always felt like KC could play a badass, so hopefully the writers give her that. Just badass with no nuance because KC isn't that good Imo.

As for the backpacking thing, I think that was a lie more for Dinah than Quentin. Idk. I just feel like dressing up is just taking it further than it should actually go. It's just worse imo. It makes laurel an irredeemable ass but we all know she won't really suffer the consequences of her lies. Which is really disappointing to me.

 

Unfortunately, the EPs have already let us know that she's not going to be a good fighter, so if she's going to be a badass, she's going to have to find another way. 

 

And yeah, the backpacking lie was only for Dinah - Quentin knows Sara's in the LoA and there might be a reason Sara isn't answering her phone. Dinah, for some stupid reason, was still in the dark about that despite the fact that a couple of assassins kidnapped her last season. Wonder what the explanation for that was. 

 

I don't think Laurel dressing up to deceive Quentin (IF she does) would make her keeping Sara's death from him more awful - she's proven that she's selfish in that regard. But it does suck her down neck-deep into the quicksand of assholery she continues to sink into. Hopefully those tweets about Quentin and Laurel indicate that she comes clean about Sara's death in 3x10 or 3x11. I hope she comes clean about it on her own and isn't forced into it because Quentin sees her all buckled in and ready for takeoff in her big girl vigilante suit. I especially hope he doesn't see her in it after getting her ass kicked. Because if she's so worried about him having a heart attack and dying? Dressing up and going out and fighting crime when she isn't ready (and even when she is) isn't going to help that. And no, I'm not suggesting that she not do something she wants to do because she needs to consider her father's feelings, but I am suggesting that her character's contradictory reasoning continues to suck. 

Edited December 26, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Happy Harpy]

So, those tweets all but confirm that the post-hiatus episodes will have copious amounts of Laurel and Ray?

 

But...but...but I thought they would be about Roy and Diggle and Felicity reacting to Oliver's death? [sound of dripping sarcasm]

 

And unless there are other tweets about other characters -if so, ignore- it almost sounds like "all about" Laurel and Ray. Since I can't believe that those two characters can be the most remarkable thing about an episode, not if there are even just 2 seconds of interaction between D.Ramsey and E.B.Rickards.

 

Edit: I remember when Felicity reproached Oliver, the protagonist and hero of the show, with not telling the truth about the way Sara really died to her family; and how the audience was allowed to think she had a point. The only thing that could make me curious about the developments of that very bad idea for a storyline would be whether Quentin is authorized to reproach Laurel with what she did, and if two points of views are allowed this time.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[quarks]

I think those tweets just confirm that the CW is making one of its employees work the Friday after Christmas. 

[catrox14]

But isn't she already doing that now?  Telling him that Sara is alive when she's not?  Telling him she off backpacking in the Andes when she's six feet under?  Telling everyone BUT him that Sara is dead?  In my book she's already so far over the line that dressing up barely nudges the needle

She is so far over the line that the line is a dot to her.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think those tweets just confirm that the CW is making one of its employees work the Friday after Christmas. 

 

I'm thinking someone's been hitting the leftover eggnog in the office fridge ;) See, this is what happens when you make employees work the Friday after Christmas, interrupting what could have been a pretty sweet long weekend.

[Chaser]

I understand that they are promoting LL/BC/KC but I wish Gomez would make the effort to mention other players. We know that DR has a big emotional scene, we know that Felicity's reaction is 'epic.' They can't even get a comment?

 

I shouldn't be surprised because this isn't the first time that Gomez has singled out praise to KC/PB. I don't even think SA has seen that much from her. I understand its all PR. But I just wish the other players were given some credit (DR in particular).

[BkWurm1]

I'm always happy when PB is praised but then I'm reminded how badly I want him to interact with more characters than just Laurel. 

 

I wonder if the Ray stuff will be Ray/Felicity stuff or more so just Ray stuff.  Even if it is Ray/Felicity in the scene her purpose probably won't be much more than there to help Ray explain his plans. 

[wonderwall]

I mean the fact that she only mentions Laurel and Ray just shows that she's doing this to prop up Laurel and Ray (so that people will be more excited about them) and not really promoting the show as a whole. :p It's quite funny because in order to make people excited about Laurel they have to feign enthusiasm and actually make the effort and whatnot whereas with Diggle or Felicity all they have to do is mention that they're in the episode and people already get excited :p 

Edited December 27, 2014 by wonderwall

[SonofaBiscuit]

You'd better be careful with your tweets, lady (whoever this lady is), or people will get the (mistaken, of course) impression that the next few episodes are Laurel-heavy.  Like a Laurel trilogy or something.

 

I personally liked the tweet about the 2nd part of Laurel's BC evolution and how the writers "have touched on every part of a superhero's journey."  How many episodes has this lady watched?  So in like three or four episodes, the writers have managed to do for Laurel what has still not been accomplished in Oliver's journey as a superhero?  No, that doesn't sound right, considering the fact that Guggenheim has said that Laurel is going to get her ass beat. 

 

I'm just waiting for reactions from people who have no idea what is coming.  Their heads are going to explode!  If you don't read spoilers, no way you're going to expect Laurel to be suiting up in episode 10.  I admit, I am filled with glee thinking about people freaking out over this (not excited about much else, though, at the moment).

[NumberCruncher]

I'm always happy when PB is praised but then I'm reminded how badly I want him to interact with more characters than just Laurel.

This. I'm disappointed that Paul Blackthorne's talent is being wasted in S3. Lance has essentially been reduced to popping up in random Laurel scenes. Everything we've seen in the spoilers so far points to this continuing. Instead of having him work covertly with Arrow like he had been doing in S2, they seem to think he's only useful to move Laurel's BC transition forward and they're making him look stupid in the process.

[statsgirl]

No wonder Paul Blackthorne is pushing for a Quentin/Donna romance.  At least it would be something different than propping Laurel the whole season.

 

 

In one of Laurel's recent episodes, she is jumping down Quentin's throat about the increase of muggings (I think).  I wouldn't be surprised if she suits up because those problems are getting out of hand and without the Arrow, there's no one to take care of it (since as mentioned before, the police were over worked and understaffed).

 

And it would be typical Laurel to think that she's the one who is going to do it.  Forget Diggle and Roy, who have actually been trained to fight, Laurel's spent three four months learning to box, she'll handle what the police can't.

 

Of course Sara's child wouldn't be worthy but if he'd kept Sara around even if Nyssa was against having a kid, he might have been able to convince Sara to play surrogate.  Actually, I'm surprised he didn't go that direction but I suppose Ra's is just a traditionalist.

I didn't mean that it would be Sara's child, just that even if Nyssa wasn't feeling maternal, Sara was approaching her thirties and likely wanting a baby.  I'm sure Ra's could have negotiated a way with Nyssa that the child has her DNA and Sara retires from kiling people to raise the child.  I think less of him that he didn't think of that himself.  If he was so impressed with Oliver, he might have agreed to donate the sperm if Sara was raising the baby.

 

If the whole point of Laurel putting on the costume is to go after bad guys like the LoA while hiding her identity (as what was suggested) then putting on a costume very similar in nature to Sara/Canary is a dumb move.

If the whole point is to pretend to be Sara/Canary to fool the bad guys and Lance then it's even worse, because that just makes the character horrible. It would be one thing if Lance knew that Sara was dead but keeping him in the dark while wearing the costume, just makes it worse. Even if the intention wasn't to fool Lance (that was a by product) it's still horrible (IMO)

In primitive cultures, eating a foe's heart was thought to give you their courage, or their brain their wisedom.  (Mostly it just gave you their parasites.)  Maybe Laurel thinks that if she looks like Sara, she will have Sara's courage and fighting ability. She's going to need all the help she can get.

 

Or maybe she thinks that if she looks like Sara and does what Sara does, she will become Sara, who did all the hard work on her own.  That does't make any sense psychologically (Laurel always thought she was better than Sara) but who knows what the EPs are thinking at this stage.

[Password]

Everyone on this show needs intense therapy.

...who else wants Felicity to tell Ray instead of ironing up he should see a psychologist? Just me? OK.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Limbo

[chaos is welcome]

Random theory that came to me while watching fan vids . . .

Remember how Guggie said the way slade is brought back in for 14 will make sense at the end of 13?

I wonder if Thea perhaps confronts Malcolm, and he says something along the lines of "OH, I made sure you found out I was your father"--because telling Slade is absolutely something Malcolm would do. 

Anyway, just random.  Sadly trying to figure out what twisted things they are up to is no longer fun. Off to the bitterness thread once again.

[looptab]

You know,that could be possible. I wondered how Slade knew Thea was Malcolm daughter,so..why not? It wouldn't be the most absurd thing this show has done :)

[apinknightmare]

 

In one of Laurel's recent episodes, she is jumping down Quentin's throat about the increase of muggings (I think).  I wouldn't be surprised if she suits up because those problems are getting out of hand and without the Arrow, there's no one to take care of it (since as mentioned before, the police were over worked and understaffed).

And it would be typical Laurel to think that she's the one who is going to do it.  Forget Diggle and Roy, who have actually been trained to fight, Laurel's spent three four months learning to box, she'll handle what the police can't.

 

She initially went to Ted Grant's gym to question him about a burglary that one of his students was allegedly involved in - she's mentioned burglaries several times since. I thought maybe that was leading to something with her going out as BC, possibly with Ted Grant because one of his students gets mixed up in something. I could be wrong, but it seems like there's a reason those burglaries have been mentioned more than once.  

[BkWurm1]

I'm sure Ra's could have negotiated a way with Nyssa that the child has her DNA and Sara retires from kiling people to raise the child.  I think less of him that he didn't think of that himself.

 

I know what you mean, as I played the scenario through my head I was also sadly disappointed in Ra's.  It would have been a win, win, win all around. (provided Sara had some maternal longings,)  At this point if Ra's ever mentions the need for an heir I'm going to be highly disappointed in his lack of foresight.  I'm hoping him not liking Sara was for some other reason now.  Maybe thinking she was a distraction or weakness to Nyssa.   

[chaos is welcome]

She initially went to Ted Grant's gym to question him about a burglary that one of his students was allegedly involved in - she's mentioned burglaries several times since. I thought maybe that was leading to something with her going out as BC, possibly with Ted Grant because one of his students gets mixed up in something. I could be wrong, but it seems like there's a reason those burglaries have been mentioned more than once.  

I wonder if she'll get her very own villain . . . maybe this ties in to brick? 

[foreverevolving]

You know,that could be possible. I wondered how Slade knew Thea was Malcolm daughter,so..why not? It wouldn't be the most absurd thing this show has done :)

I thought it was through Isabel? didn't she tell Oliver that Robert shared that info with her that he knew all along that Thea wasn't biologically is. i seem to remember that happening in their QC boardroom fight scene. I personally simply assumed she shared that knowledge with Slade.

Edited December 28, 2014 by foreverevolving

[looptab]

You're right. I had forgotten Isabel knew, it was surely her who told Slade. That part was dumb all the same,though,because how could they know Oliver had found out too? Poor guy heard about it for the first time just a few episodes earlier lol.

To keep this on topic, this discussion about sperm donors and surrogates etc., is it based on some spoiler or is it just speculation?

[Ariah]

Just a random thought/theory on the bugging Guggenheim's tweet "I don't want to be a woman you love" (yup, I know, it's old!)

Since we're also, per some other tweet, about to learn when is Felicity's birthday etc.,

 

How about:

It's Felicity, over a lighted birthday candle, in the Foundry, making a birthday wish while looking at Oliver's costume -> up till this day, she has had this quiet dream/wish to be the woman Oliver actually loves, but once it happened, everything went to hell.

 

So now, her birthday wish would go along like this: "I don't want to be a woman you love. I want you to be alive and come back"

 

There, a sappy story.

[TwistedandBored]

My friend asked me why can't Team Arrow ask for Team Flash's help in searching for Oliver? And, I really couldn't tell her the reason why Team Flash couldn't help. 

 

Do you guys know if the writers said something about that or not?

[apinknightmare]

My friend asked me why can't Team Arrow ask for Team Flash's help in searching for Oliver? And, I really couldn't tell her the reason why Team Flash couldn't help.

Do you guys know if the writers said something about that or not?

MG tweeted that Felicity wouldn't be looking for Oliver. I think they don't ask for help searching for him because they themselves don't search for him.

[TwistedandBored]

MG tweeted that Felicity wouldn't be looking for Oliver. I think they don't ask for help searching for him because they themselves don't search for him.

 

Oh, okay. It is weird Diggle and Felicity wouldn't at least try to search for Oliver's body. But, it is Arrow we are talking about. This season, the show is even more inconsistent and illogical than usual.

[Kordi]

There are lots of speculations in this thread that Felicity and Diggle would never believe any message about Oliver's death as long as they don't find his corpse as a conclusive evidence - because, up until now, Oliver has survived various situations where death seemed inevitable, and furthermore, possible messengers who might communicate his passing away to the remaining Team Arrow members have proven themselves to be unreliable/ liars (like Merlyn).

 

I'd like to share a consideration regarding this question: Let's suppose that Oliver is REALLY dead. Then there would be a real corpse that might be presented as evidence of his death. There might even be some kind of burial that some Team Arrow members witness. And later on, the dead body is recovered from the grave and brought to a Lazarus Pit (or whatever serves as supernatural remedy) in order to resurrect Oliver to a new life. I don't know how probable this scenario is. At least it would provide a possible explanation of why Team Arrow would refrain from searching for Oliver.

[Genki]

I'd like to share a consideration regarding this question: Let's suppose that Oliver is REALLY dead. Then there would be a real corpse that might be presented as evidence of his death. There might even be some kind of burial that some Team Arrow members witness. And later on, the dead body is recovered from the grave and brought to a Lazarus Pit (or whatever serves as supernatural remedy) in order to resurrect Oliver to a new life. I don't know how probable this scenario is. At least it would provide a possible explanation of why Team Arrow would refrain from searching for Oliver.

 

i like this idea but I don't think they can officially bury Oliver's body, because it will make things super awkward when he comes back form the dead again, even though right now he has no life outside the arrow cave. I'm not sure Oliver would even appreciate the requisite "back form the dead" party.

[Danny Franks]

My friend asked me why can't Team Arrow ask for Team Flash's help in searching for Oliver? And, I really couldn't tell her the reason why Team Flash couldn't help. 

 

Do you guys know if the writers said something about that or not?

 

Because reasons, that's why. Why couldn't they just ask Barry to run to Nanda Parbat, tie Ra's Al Gut in a knot and take him to prison? Why couldn't they ask Barry to find Merlyn, steal his snuff movie and then deliver him to Ra's before Merlyn can even assay a single villainous sneer?

 

These are the problems you have when you try to juxtapose a 'gritty', 'real' world alongside Sunny Superpowers Town. You have to either conveniently ignore the people with superpowers who would be instant deus ex machinas on your show, or you have to come up with flimsy excuses for why they can't help. What, was Barry too busy declaring his love for his sister to take a few seconds out of his day to help keep his friend alive?

 

But as far as I can tell, flimsy excuses and conveniently ignoring things that would render storylines unworkable have been the modus operandi of the Arrow writing staff, this season. So I guess they're sticking to their guns.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Danny Franks

[BkWurm1]

To keep this on topic, this discussion about sperm donors and surrogates etc., is it based on some spoiler or is it just speculation?

 

Just spec.  We were trying to answer the question why Ra's wouldn't like Sara and wondered if he dismissed Sara since she couldn't give Nyssa his heir but then also decided Ra's was incredibly shortsighted if that was the case.  

 

My friend asked me why can't Team Arrow ask for Team Flash's help in searching for Oliver? And, I really couldn't tell her the reason why Team Flash couldn't help.

 

Only Barry's speed would be of any use.  Felicity would have anything else covered, I'd think.  As for Barry, he slows down in the cold (Captain Cold) so maybe he just wouldn't be that effective searching a snow filled mountain in the dead of winter.  Maybe it's just a issue with the snow covering the ground.  Speed won't help if you still can't see the body. 

 

As for why they wouldn't have asked Barry to zip in and steal Malcolm's film, they didn't think of it?  It's probably a more plausible answer than whatever reason kept Felicity from targeting the cloud and any devices Malcolm might have and making it vanish.  A shortage of time and Oliver over confident about his chances of success? 

[KirkB]

Danny Franks is right. By connecting Flash to Arrow, as opposed to creating Flash independently, they have created the issue of why can't they simply call Barry whenever time is an issue. The multiple bombs Boomerang planted is a perfect example.That is a problem Oliver and his team would have had difficulty dealing with on their own because they couldn't even have found them all in time. Every time something happens on Arrow which involves a search or a deadline, someone is going to ask "Why don't they just call Barry?" Now, Oliver won't because he thinks he can handle everything on his own, and Diggle might think of it but probably wouldn't say anything, while Felicity would just go ahead and do it and apologize later. The crossover took a step in right direction, by emphasizing the idea that Oliver takes care of his city and Barry takes care of his and they don't interfere in each other's business for the most part, but the next time a nutcase litters bombs all over Starling or traps Thea/Roy/etc. in a coffin rapidly losing oxygen somewhere in the city Felicity is going to have to hang up the phone and say "Caitlin said Barry is busy right now."

Edited December 29, 2014 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

I don't think the speed thing is that much of an issue - they've established that Starling City is 600-ish miles away from Central City, and while Barry's been able to achieve 700-ish mph in short bursts (and Mach 1 for a short while), he probably wouldn't be able to get to SC in time to help out where time is really of the essence. Like, in the Capt. Boomerang case, or if anything was going down in less than an hour. 

 

Not that it might not be an issue in other cases, but...

Edited December 29, 2014 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

I originally thought that Laurel (or KC) wouldn't make a believable fighter (even her boxing scenes are weak) because she's got such thin arms and legs, but I realized that Maggie Q's Nikita was very believable as a kickass fighter and she's super thin.  So Laurel's believability as the Black Canary - when she inevitably triumphs as a superhero - will depend on good stunt doubling, good camera editing and good actress prep training.  Even then, KC will have to pull off some believable physical movement in close-up shots.

Edited December 29, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

It's all about motivation for me. I know Colton, Willa, and Grant don't really do most of their stunts, but I understand the characters' motivation enough to not be taken completely out of the scene during said stunts -- in which I can see they have doubles, btw. My suspension of disbelief works for them because I get why the characters are in those specific action scenes at those particular moments.

The Ra's dude, however. I didn't like the acting -- I thought he was actually pretty awful an actor. And I didn't understand Ra's motivation to all of a sudden wanting to ~avenge Sara's death~ when 5 episodes prior, he was way more interested in capturing Malcolm, and telling Nyssa that Sara wasn't truly one of them. So all I saw during the duel was the stunt double, but in a point-and-laugh ha-ha crappy editing way, because I wasn't buying neither the acting, nor the motivation.

It's the same with Laurel. I don't understand Laurel's motivation, and I haven't bought KC's acting for two and a half seasons. I don't think a wig and a mask and all the buckles will make one iota of difference.

[Sakura12]

The difference for me is, I know Maggie Q is a trained martial artist. She was Jackie Chan's protege. Like Caity Lotz, she did a majority of her own fight stunts, that made it believable for me. 

[foreverevolving]

It's all about motivation for me.....

The Ra's dude, however. I didn't like the acting -- I thought he was actually pretty awful an actor. And I didn't understand Ra's motivation to all of a sudden wanting to ~avenge Sara's death~ when 5 episodes prior, he was way more interested in capturing Malcolm, and telling Nyssa that Sara wasn't truly one of them. So all I saw during the duel was the stunt double, but in a point-and-laugh ha-ha crappy editing way, because I wasn't buying neither the acting, nor the motivation.

Ra's motive was not Sarah.. It was Oliver placing his protection on Malcolm that angered Ra's, Sarah was the easy excuse to get Nyssa to turn on Oliver. In all honesty Oliver pretty much played right into Ra's hands with his confession.. For Ra's this ended being killing two birds with one stone - take down the man who is harboring the man who betrayed his ideals, and who supposedly killed his daughter beloved. Ra's is a tactical man, this created a double win both for him and for Nyssa.

Now whether Nyssa truly believes Oliver is the killer is doubtful.. I don't think she does.

[dtissagirl]

Ra's motive was not Sarah.. It was Oliver placing his protection on Malcolm that angered Ra's, Sarah was the easy excuse to get Nyssa to turn on Oliver. In all honesty Oliver pretty much played right into Ra's hands with his confession.. For Ra's this ended being killing two birds with one stone - take down the man who is harboring the man who betrayed his ideals, and who supposedly killed his daughter beloved. Ra's is a tactical man, this created a double win both for him and for Nyssa.

Now whether Nyssa truly believes Oliver is the killer is doubtful.. I don't think she does.

Maybe it's because I think the actor is awful, but I got none of that from The Climb. I got a Ra's who dueled Oliver just because he was challenged by a guy who was clearly lying. And Ra's was probably bored with killing six to eight people a day for sport, so, you know, a trip to the mountains sounded like a break in the routine. I got *nothing* from the acting that sold me mastermind, or even tactical man. AT ALL.

To keep this on topic, I'm still hoping there was something missing on purpose from The Climb, and that Ra's *was* testing Oliver, or recruiting Oliver to the league, even, instead of just killing a rando that challenged him for kicks. Maybe killing and resurrecting someone IS how you become a LoA member, for all we know. But I want to be interested in this Ra's, and if the writing makes him more interesting than the snorefest he's been so far, I can overlook the mediocre acting.

[ban1o]

The difference for me is, I know Maggie Q is a trained martial artist. She was Jackie Chan's protege. Like Caity Lotz, she did a majority of her own fight stunts, that made it believable for me.

I think people think actors do a lot more stunts then they do. There are lots of rules and regulations and stunt doubles do a lot more then we think they do. Even trained people like Maggie Q and Caity Lotz don't do a lot of their stunts because if they get injured, it costs a lot of money.

Anyway my point is if the stunts are good then Laurel should be somewhat believable aa a fighter.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ban1o

[Sakura12]

That's why I said fight stunts. I know they can't do the crazy running or jumping off building stunts (which I just consider extra stunts anyway). Seeing the actual face of the person fighting goes along way in making enjoy a fight scene. I hate seeing the back of heads and far away or rapid cut away shots. We have seen both CL and MQ doing their own fight scenes. Sara did a lot of mask off fighting. There is also Bam Bam (the head Arrow Stunt coordinator) saying that Caity Lotz could be a stunt double if she wanted too, that makes me believe that she was in fact doing all the stunts the insurance company would allow her to do.

 

I've seen Cassidy throw stunt punches and she's horrible at it. KC can lift all the weights in the world and that won't at all help with coordination. I've said it before KC will be playing Laurel and a the back of a stunt double's head will be playing Black Canary not just for the dangerous stunts for the simple stunts now as well. That will take me out of the scene. 

 

I'm not saying it's her fault or anything, it's normal for big blockbuster movies too (like the Avengers, I could see stunt doubles being used for almost all the fight scenes). It's just harder to ignore after seeing an actress that can do their own stunts replaced by someone that can't. It would be like if Stephen Amell stopped doing stunts and his stunt double took over all of them. You would notice the difference in the way they were filmed and that would take me out of the scene. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Sakura12

[ban1o]

That's why I said fight stunts. I know they can't do the crazy running or jumping off building stunts (which I just consider extra stunts anyway). Seeing the actual face of the person fighting goes along way in making enjoy a fight scene. I hate seeing the back of heads and far away or rapid cut away shots. We have seen both CL and MQ doing their own fight scenes. Sara did a lot of mask off fight scenes.

even a lot of the fight scenes have stunt doubles incorporated. When the stunt team is the stunt double and the actual actor are blended it in well And they often cut to the actor's face to increase believability. (The Ras al guhl fight was not blended in well at all lol )I remember last year watching a video of SA and CL stunt doubles doing a fight scene As Arrow and Canary. And I remember even for the flash vs arrow crossover GG and SA's stunt doubles were photographed. Anyway I'm just saying that Laurel could probably look believable. Anyway I don't want to get into an argument about stunt doubles lol. I'm just saying if the stunt team is good, Laurel will be believable as a fighter, it's her motivations that are a problem for me.

[chaos is welcome]

The difference for me is, I know Maggie Q is a trained martial artist. She was Jackie Chan's protege. Like Caity Lotz, she did a majority of her own fight stunts, that made it believable for me. 

I totally agree with this.  I honestly think one of the biggest mistakes they have made is bringing in such a physically capable actress for Canary, and giving her such a great back story that was completely believable.  I honestly didn't give a hairy monkey's behind about Laurel one way or the other until they did this.  I bought in to her, I liked her, and I KNEW that if they killed her to make Laurel the canary I would become bitter.  But I hoped they would manage to do it in a way that would allow me to buy in.  Again, on a normal show it wouldn't be a huge deal but there's kind of a standard here.  David Ramsey has physical presence, Colton has physical presence, Willa, though small, has physical presence.  KC actually looks great dressed down to "train"--she's really put the work in on her arms.  She is more cut than Willa.  I could buy into it, maybe, but then she opens her mouth and I want to beat my head repeatedly into the desk.  Its the overall package that's just UGH. Anyway, I'm getting OT but its super frustrating--again they set the bar rather high with Sara, so Laurel's " I WANNA BE A VIGILANTE NOW NOW NOW." is annoying. 

You know what I want to see if we REALLY have to put up with Laurel being sorta on Team-not-arrow while Oliver is gone?  I want a scene where Dig and Roy are arguing with Laurel about something, and Felicity is like "STOP.  When you don't listen to those who have btdt around here, people die.  So sit down, shut the f up and please for the love of all that is holy, listen to the man who survived a war or two." Or something like that.

 

It's all about motivation for me. I know Colton, Willa, and Grant don't really do most of their stunts, but I understand the characters' motivation enough to not be taken completely out of the scene during said stunts -- in which I can see they have doubles, btw. My suspension of disbelief works for them because I get why the characters are in those specific action scenes at those particular moments.

The Ra's dude, however. I didn't like the acting -- I thought he was actually pretty awful an actor. And I didn't understand Ra's motivation to all of a sudden wanting to ~avenge Sara's death~ when 5 episodes prior, he was way more interested in capturing Malcolm, and telling Nyssa that Sara wasn't truly one of them. So all I saw during the duel was the stunt double, but in a point-and-laugh ha-ha crappy editing way, because I wasn't buying neither the acting, nor the motivation.

It's the same with Laurel. I don't understand Laurel's motivation, and I haven't bought KC's acting for two and a half seasons. I don't think a wig and a mask and all the buckles will make one iota of difference.

You know, after the fight in the Climb, I kinda like Ras. He was understated and then wiped the floor with Oliver.  I think there's DEFINATELY twists GALORE coming in the motivation department for Ras and Malcolm.  I suspect Ras may even already know who killed Sara, because he brought oliver in so effortlessly. And I did not miss Nyssa's SAY WAH? look when Ras said the bit about avenging sara, however it was worded.  Other things are def. at play. Heck, its remotely possible he and Malcolm are both toying with oliver. Why?  I have no idea at this point. I can't even begin to speculate because hiatus speculation is an exercise in head desking, especially with this show after Sara's dumpster thump.

 

But yeah, Laurel is a head scratcher. I've been rewatching some of S3 and I just don't get any of it, other than BECAUSE COMICS.  They shouldn't have made her a capable and fairly kick ass lawyer in S1. Someone on another thread in the forum posted a man behind the curtain gif, and this is what I feel every time she's onscreen at this point.  Which again, is dumb, because a year ago I was indifferent.  Le sigh.

[calliope1975]

I hope Ra's has some other game going. You don't bring in this character just to have him believe Oliver's obvious lie, fight him once, then disappear. He's extremely smart and dangerous and always has ~plans~ at work. Has there been any info about Matt Nable returning? 

 

For stunt work, editing is key. It was very cool to see SA's face during the fight but was very obvious that was not Matt Nable he was fighting. But, they're doing the best they can with the time and budgets they can. (It speaks a lot of SA to me that he took the time to learn that fight sequence. Plus, I watched The Raid 2 last night and whoa, that movie takes the cake in insane, amazing fight scenes.)

[insubordination]

 

I think there's DEFINATELY twists GALORE coming in the motivation department for Ras and Malcolm.

I agree with you. I'm just worried that the writers haven't thought of the twists yet. They'll just make 'em up as they go along, rush any resolution, and if we are really, really good boys and girls, they might fix an error or two with flashbacks.

[chaos is welcome]

I may be naive but I think they have had a long game in mind with Malcolm all along. If they make it up as they go I will throw things, because we deserve better than that. Slade's villainy lacked any real thought/twists IMO, which was annoying. But Malcolm has been shown to be bat shit cray cray and pretty cunning. Ras hasn't been shown to be anything,but surely with this character, because!comics must factor in. I hope. This probably belongs in hopes and fears.

[ban1o]

I may be naive but I think they have had a long game in mind with Malcolm all along. If they make it up as they go I will throw things, because we deserve better than that. Slade's villainy lacked any real thought/twists IMO, which was annoying. But Malcolm has been shown to be bat shit cray cray and pretty cunning. Ras hasn't been shown to be anything,but surely with this character, because!comics must factor in. I hope. This probably belongs in hopes and fears.

I don't want to give to much credit to the writers but hopefully they have something good planned with Malcolm.

Edited December 30, 2014 by ban1o