Spoiler Discussion Thread

[insomniadreams88]

Let’s assume Earth-X Oliver isn’t undercover. Do they think Olicity fans would want him anywhere near Earth-X Felicity? Nope. If he’s not faking it, I want him as far away as possible from any Earth’s Felicity.

[Midnight Lullaby]

11 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

If I had any faith in the show I would think maybe Earth X Oliver, having fallen for Earth X Felicity, is now faking his role (including his relationship with Earth X Kara) and is actually helping the resistance.   Earth X Felicity faked her death (Earth X Oliver "killed" her to prove his loyalty and ensure her safety) and is now working with not so bad Earth X Oliver to try and save her world.  Similar to real Felicity helping real Oliver see he could be and do better (versus just killing everyone on the list). 

Oliver, since he needs to learn every lesson at least 12 billion times for it to stick, learns love is worth the risk (or something like that) and life is short and Felicity will always be his guiding star (or whatever the new quote is) no matter what or where, hence the wedding. 

But this show, is this show, so it is probably just for shock value that we get Kara and Oliver and Felicity's grave. 

This is the only thing I can think of that makes sense. Or Nazi Oliver would have to lose Nazi Kara to follow the same logic..even if in that case my feeling would be Nazis deserve that and worse. I wouldn’t want Oliver to see his EX version lose the woman he loves and learn from that if EX Oliver is a Nazi..it would be humanizing them and romanticizing the whole thing.

[leopardprint]

16 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

I mean why is an evil Kara/Oliver hookup necessary? It sounds like something Kreisberg would come up with, to be honest. They have some obsession with Oliver hooking up with as many women as possible, it's a little lot gross at times. I also don't see how it's a "dark love story" if they're both NAZIS. 

I really want to watch this crossover because it's the wedding and I want to see the build up to it, since we've been waiting so long, but ugh. It's so Arrow to give with one hand while slapping you in the face with the other. 

I think this crossover with go well with wine, haha. 

Dude, for real, why does every crossover have to feature Oliver's romantic misadventures, real or otherwise? I think they maxed out the "billionaire playboy" thing with him running off with his GF's sister.

3 MINUTES AGO, MIDNIGHT LULLABY SAID:

This is the only thing I can think of that makes sense. Or Nazi Oliver would have to lose Nazi Kara to follow the same logic..even if in that case my feeling would be Nazis deserve that and worse. I wouldn’t want Oliver to see his EX version lose the woman he loves and learn from that if EX Oliver is a Nazi..it would be humanizing them and romanticizing the whole thing.

Well "Good" Oliver is perfectly willing to take advice from other mass murderers (Slade, Malcolm, Ra's), so why not Nazis? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by leopardprint

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Let’s assume Earth-X Oliver isn’t undercover. Do they think Olicity fans would want him anywhere near Earth-X Felicity? Nope. If he’s not faking it, I want him as far away as possible from any Earth’s Felicity.

I think E-1 Oliver ruse to rescue Felcity/Iris. A fakeout to shock the audience, OMG it's Evil Oliver when it's really E1 Oliver.

I also still think the whole Dark Love Story could be E-X Oliver falling for E-X Felicity and betraying the SS for her, becoming a mole.

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

 

Well "Good" Oliver is perfectly willing to take advice from other mass murderers (Slade, Malcolm, Ra's), so why not Nazis? 

I’m hoping the writers realize the difference between fictional characters and Nazis to be honest.

[Mrs. de Winter]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Or Nazi Oliver would have to lose Nazi Kara to follow the same logic..even if in that case my feeling would be Nazis deserve that and worse. I wouldn’t want Oliver to see his EX version lose the woman he loves and learn from that if EX Oliver is a Nazi..it would be humanizing them and romanticizing the whole thing.

If his relationship with Earth X Kara is not a ruse, I would think the loss he learns from is that Earth X Oliver lost Felicity - either because she dies or he chooses evil over her or whatever.  I am guessing Earth X Kara is someone Earth X Oliver has settled for - if they are really together at all. 

Or this really is AKs obsession with playboy Oliver - hopefully for the last damn time. 

[Guest]

I just... for me it's not that I think Olicity are being diminished somehow or anything like that. I don't feel that way at all. I just really didn't want to see any version of Oliver shove his tongue in Kara's mouth tbh. Haha. And if it's somehow E1 Oliver that does it as a ruse? Um...yikes. 

It doesn't matter. I've already accepted I'm not gonna like any of that part tbh. ? 

[KenyaJ]

58 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think E-1 Oliver ruse to rescue Felcity/Iris. A fakeout to shock the audience, OMG it's Evil Oliver when it's really E1 Oliver.

I also still think the whole Dark Love Story could be E-X Oliver falling for E-X Felicity and betraying the SS for her, becoming a mole.

I think the same. In any case, I'm completely unbothered by this kiss. It's not "real" in any sense that affects Oliver and Felicity's E-1 relationship, so whatevs.

[statsgirl]

"Playboy Oliver" seems to be a major component of the comic book character.  It's not attractive to me but it appears to appeal  to a part of the fanbase.  If they've got to do Oliver with other women, I'm just glad it's other Earths Oliver and not the one who is with Felicity.

I'm too invested in Olicity to want to see NaziOliver passionate with NaziKara but I can see how it might be okay dramatically.

Edited November 19, 2017 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

I couldn't care less about the kiss. It's a gotcha from these gross men. I am rather curious as to how they're gonna be treating this doppelgangers. I mean, our Oliver thought he could still find Laurel in Black Siren back in 5x10, although he hasn't repeated that since and the show seems to have settled on "that's not our Laurel." Will they be looking at Nazi Oliver, Nazi Kara, etc. and just be "yeah, that's not us at all" or will they think they'll find a little bit of themselves in these Nazis? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[tofutan]

Maybe Real Oliver goes undercover as Nazi Oliver and gets kissed by Nazi Kara because she mistakes him for Nazi Oliver. I just find it beyond gross the way they seem so excited for a "passionate" kiss between nazi characters. The whole exercise sounds like a huger and huger trainwreck. And you can say all you want that it doesn't actually affect real Oliver and Felicity, but it still comes off like the writers subtly hate Olicity if they always use this big crossovers to sneak in excuses to have Oliver suck face with other women. As if they want to rub it in that they hate having to put Olicity together. At least it looks like Westallen will be spared that. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by tofutan

[tangerine95]

Well Westallen wasn't exactly spared that because on Flash they had fake Barry kissing Caitlin in season 1,then Killer Frost kissed Barry while him and Iris were together and there was a whole episode of Iris and Mon El making out in that musical thing.They love the meaningless weird kisses lol

Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the flash was the person to come up with this Kara Oliver thing tbh.

I do agree it doesn't seem like they get how gross it is to make versions of heroes people like into nazis and how problematic it is if they try to humanize them in any way.I'm just hoping if they want any kind of romantic thing with earth X Felicity that earth X Oliver is undercover or something but I'm not holding my breath tho.

Edited November 19, 2017 by tangerine95

[bijoux]

Freedom Fighters are still happening, right? I doubt they're going to have any of the alternate versions repent, they need them to remain bad to keep in line with the cartoon series. Unless that takes place before this crossover? So I don't see OliverX coming to the light side. I'm still thinking the kiss is our Oliver's ruse.

[tofutan]

Quote

Well Westallen wasn't exactly spared that because on Flash they had fake Barry kissing Caitlin in season 1,then Killer Frost kissed Barry while him and Iris were together and there was a whole episode of Iris and Mon El making out in that musical thing.They love the meaningless weird kisses lol

Not against the backdrop of them getting married. To me it feels like the writers want to take one last chance to piss in the Olicity pool and marr their special day. 

[BkWurm1]

32 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Maybe Real Oliver goes undercover as Nazi Oliver and gets kissed by Nazi Kara because she mistakes him for Nazi Oliver. I just find it beyond gross the way they seem so excited for a "passionate" kiss between nazi characters. The whole exercise sounds like a huger and huger trainwreck. And you can say all you want that it doesn't actually affect real Oliver and Felicity, but it still comes off like the writers subtly hate Olicity if they always use this big crossovers to sneak in excuses to have Oliver suck face with other women. As if they want to rub it in that they hate having to put Olicity together. At least it looks like Westallen will be spared that. 

3

I don't get that impression at all, that the writers hate Olicity.  I think the Kara thing is simply them playing around with an AU.  It's for the shock value.  And it's a safe AU pairing because no one could think Oliver and Supergirl who lives in a different universe (not to mention a different show) would ever really date. 

And I'm kind of interested in seeing if MB can pull off a dark enough character to compensate for the mismatched pairing between her character and Oliver's.  OliverX isn't going to have mannerisms much different than E1Oliver, but MB is going to have to have vastly different characters.  And that often can be fun to watch.  Of course I'm not going to buy into any kind of Nazi "love" story, dark or otherwise (unless they dump being a nazi in the process) but that's just stuff I have to wait through to get to the good stuff and there seems to be SOOOO much good stuff waiting for me in this crossover that just that fact makes me certain there's no secret resentment toward Olicity.  

More than anything to me it says they had a hard time figuring out how to make Supergirl relevant in the crossover.  So they made her a love interest, lol.  An evil love interest.  And that likely will not be great but again, so much else to balance out the not great with.   

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

More than anything to me it says they had a hard time figuring out how to make Supergirl relevant in the crossover.  So they made her a love interest, lol.  An evil love interest.  And that likely will not be great but again, so much else to balance out the not great with.   

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.

[bijoux]

11 minutes ago, tv echo said:

 

Any guesses what he could be talking about?

[Belinea]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

A fakeout to shock the audience, OMG it's Evil Oliver when it's really E1 Oliver.

That thought make me think of Al-Sahim/Oliver and how he wasn't evil after all.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Belinea

[BkWurm1]

Quote

They’ve been shooting 10, 11, & 12 and he made the writers tell a story he felt needed to be told and they hadn’t fully told.

Those would be the episodes where the A and B teams are at odds.  Maybe just that the newbies are the B team?

Edited November 19, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Belinea]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

More than anything to me it says they had a hard time figuring out how to make Supergirl relevant in the crossover.  So they made her a love interest, lol.

Which is just sad to be honest. I can't imagine it is this hard to write badass female characters. 

[way2interested]

Just now, bijoux said:

Any guesses what he could be talking about?

For some reason, something with Thea jumped out at me since SA mentioned that he pitched an idea about Thea to the writers a while ago, but then the idea that the newbies are always still the B team makes sense to me too.

[Mellowyellow]

I applaud DR and SA for reading the audience well, first slipping in that MB and SA have lots of scenes together and then finally confirming the XOliver/XKara (or whatever versions I'm losing count) kiss. That was well played and now people aren't going to freak the crap out when they see it. Management needs to thank them for their tact!

Agree they had to find a way to increase Supergirl's role.

I am still SOOOO excited for Olicity because as epic as the crossover will be it doesn't end there and we still have the rest of the season to bask in the "Olicityness" of it all. Or freak out if certain parties do not renew contracts! Lol it never really ends does it? 

Several of the photos fascinate me and they have nothing to do with Olicity, mainly the Reverse Flash and Felicity photo and the one with Ray having some sort of a seizure in his ATOM suit! Also excited to find out what happens with EvilWells, Iris and Felicity.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[tv echo]

I wish someone would tweet the script title pages for 611 and 612 (if not MG, then why not WM?).

Nov. 7 was the last scheduled shoot day for 610.

Edited November 19, 2017 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

As if they want to rub it in that they hate having to put Olicity together. At least it looks like Westallen will be spared that. 

I've never really gotten that from the writers. Like, never ever. Even when they had brainwashed Oliver getting married to alien hallucination Laurel, the writers were making sure the viewers understood it was a mistake and something he needed to get out of. They they literally made Felicity, via her Smoak Tech building, Oliver's way out of the nightmare. I do think that sometimes MG likes to tweak the audience but I don't think it has ever been signaled either in the writing of the show or interviews that they hated putting Olicity together. After all, this ship saved their damned show. The reverse is quite true, IMO, that the writers actually enjoy putting Olicity together. They write them well enough when they're happy. 

26 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

More than anything to me it says they had a hard time figuring out how to make Supergirl relevant in the crossover.  So they made her a love interest, lol.  An evil love interest.  And that likely will not be great but again, so much else to balance out the not great with. 

Yep, I agree with this. This whole thing with Oliver/Kara seems like a way to give Kara more of a role and given how gross this men are, making her a love interest (RME) seems like the only way they know how.

Edited November 19, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

The last time SA felt there was a story that needed to be told we got Myson! Myson!  So I'm not sanguine.  We've had Oliver trusting his team, we've had Oliver being a leader, I can't think what there is to tell with the A/B split that hasn't been told.

45 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Not against the backdrop of them getting married. To me it feels like the writers want to take one last chance to piss in the Olicity pool and marr their special day. 

To me it feels like Olicity is so solid now, they feel they have the room to play around with it somewhat.  Even in the hallucinations of the 100th episode the subtext was that Felicity was Oliver's reality and his way out.

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The last time SA felt there was a story that needed to be told we got Myson! Myson!  So I'm not sanguine.  We've had Oliver trusting his team, we've had Oliver being a leader, I can't think what there is to tell with the A/B split that hasn't been told.

 

OLICITOTS?????

Sorry! I will go sit in the corner alone now *pouts*

[Primal Slayer]

Evil couples are such an old age troupe, I don't mind it. If Evil Kara has no agency apart from the couple I'll be mad but other than that bring it on.

[Guest]

It's so sweet of them, to give Nazis a love story. Aw. 

? ? ?

40 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Any guesses what he could be talking about?

Episodes 10, 11 & 12 are the OTA/newbies civil war thing so it might have something to do with that?

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

It's so sweet of them, to give Nazis a love story. Aw. 

That's what the world needs more of- Nazi love. 

[insomniadreams88]

47 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Any guesses what he could be talking about?

Maybe that whole thing about Oliver not making decisions on his own but with Diggle and Felicity and not wanting to be held solely responsible by others that SA talked about in those set interviews?

[JJ928]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

Not against the backdrop of them getting married. To me it feels like the writers want to take one last chance to piss in the Olicity pool and marr their special day. 

Their special day, in my opinion, will be the reception in episode 9. The crossover is already marred by the Nazi storyline. I'll take nazi Oliver/Kara (two absolutely terrible ppl together), over nazi Oliver being in love with Jewish FS any day. Please keep all nazis away from Felicity! I'd prefer Felicity not to exist on EarthX. Hell, I don't even want her alive and part of the resistance because these writers couldn't help themselves, and would probably make her think Oliver is hot. When she should have nothing but loathing for that Oliver.

Edited November 19, 2017 by JJ928

[Primal Slayer]

42 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

It's so sweet of them, to give Nazis a love story. Aw. 

? ? ?

Yeah if you want to look at it like that. I don't see anything romantic about Kara/Oliver being a couple. I see two evil people in a twisted relationship. Nothing more nothing less. But even without the nazi backdrop I see people being against it anyway. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Yeah if you want to look at it like that. I don't see anything romantic about Kara/Oliver being a couple. I see two evil people in a twisted relationship. Nothing more nothing less. But even without the nazi backdrop I see people being against it anyway. 

The Nazi thing definitely makes it worse. There's a sense of humanizing them, IMO, which links back to what SA was saying about Nazi Oliver being a real person with real relationships. I don't want to see two Nazis in a relationship at all, twisted or not. (If that is what's happening.)

And yeah, of course? When you like a ship, you don't really want to see one half of that with someone else. I would've thought that was obvious, haha.

I'm happy for those who are okay with this but personally I'm not. I wish I was because it would make viewing easier, LOL. Each to their own though! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited November 19, 2017 by Guest

[Cleanqueen]

AK has an obsession with Kara and having her have a relationship with the main leads, if he had his way he probably would have Barry and Kara kiss in the musical episode but since he couldnt get that he made sure a nazi Kara and Oliver became a couple. Also Iris and Mon El kissed the same episode where WA got engaged.

From the pics, Overgirl looks like a bitch and Oliver doesn't seem that evil, still not sure if that's our Oliver or the Nazi Oliver.

From Stephen's explanation he made it seem like everyone is a Nazi whether they choose it to or not, what if that Oliver fell in love with Earth X Felicity who had to hide her faith and once it was discovered who she was the nazi's killed her. Oliver had no choice but to then be with a Nazi girl so him and Overgirl have a relationship. Seeing our Felicity will probably remind him of what he lost and how he didnt fight to protect her and be with her...maybe this is waht Oliver learns....thats all I could come with  

And honestly a Nazi Oliver and Kara could make out for hrs and i wouldnt be pissed about it, these arent characters I care about so their relationship doesnt matter to me. And yes every dark story always has that dark love story to accompany it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[leopardprint]

I think even bothering to have a Nazi romance with familiar looking characters is just kind of a warning sign of the thought and development that went into the whole Nazi idea in general. That is to say, very little. 

[Mellowyellow]

I get why people are upset but I'm so not surprised they'd pull something like this. 

Lol is that bad?

I'm genuinely shocked when they do something good like have Oliver be the one wanting to encourage Felicity to spend time with him and William.

This Nazi love story nonsense is distasteful but very in form of them. I wonder how much time they'll spend on it or if it's just a kiss.

I'll still enjoy the crossover because I block crap so well by now?

[JamieLynn832002]

Is it possible that X Oliver is with Kara because his Felicity is dead and Kara and Felicity sort of look alike? I don't think they're that alike but they mentioned the similarities in last year's crossover. I still wouldn't particularly want to see it because at the end of the day...nazis but it would help me understand why David and Stephen seem to think they can sell Olicity fans on it.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

it would help me understand why David and Stephen seem to think they can sell Olicity fans on it.

They probably think they can sell it because either the kiss is a ruse, or happens between another Earth’s Oliver and Kara and has no effect whatsoever on the Oliver and Felicity we watch or their relationship. 

[Jacks-Son]

I have no idea where this opinion belongs in this Arrow forum, but I want to express my opinion that the writers are driving this Olicity and non-Green Arrow arc towards a series finale. All of these last few episodes have given me the feeling that the Olicity & Team Arrow are approaching the end of the line and season 6 will be the last season of Arrow.

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I have no idea where this opinion belongs in this Arrow forum, but I want to express my opinion that the writers are driving this Olicity and non-Green Arrow arc towards a series finale. All of these last few episodes have given me the feeling that the Olicity & Team Arrow are approaching the end of the line and season 6 will be the last season of Arrow.

There's a Hopes and Fears thread, where we can do some speculating without spoilers. 

[Jacks-Son]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

There's a Hopes and Fears thread, where we can do some speculating without spoilers.

Thanks, I'll re-post it there.

[tv echo]

From the OTA panel at HVFF-Atlanta:

Quote

-- SA: "When I feel like there's an elephant in the room in terms of story not being told. There's been a big part of - I can't reveal it, but there's been a big part that sort of existed for me in episode 10, 11, and we're filming 12 right now? We're finishing up 11. Um, and I addressed that with the writers, like, okay, this has gone past the point of being a elephant in the room. This is something I feel we need to expand upon. And we normally do. So I think we'll get to that eventually." (HVFF-Atlanta, Nov. 19, 2017: Prince MojoTM videos of OTA panel, page 11 of Spoilers thread and page 647 of Social Media thread)

Maybe it has to do with Oliver's Nanda Parbat marriage to Nyssa?

[way2interested]

From the phrasing and the presumed plot of the episodes, I wonder if it's just the idea of OTA sharing the "blame" or "anger" with the newbies like SA was saying, but then again he's saying that it's something that happens in 610-612 that he feels has to be addressed, right?

[leopardprint]

24 minutes ago, tv echo said:

From the OTA panel at HVFF-Atlanta:

Maybe it has to do with Oliver's Nanda Parbat marriage to Nyssa?

Oh I thought it had to do with Myson's Chekhov's Grandparents?

Or did I just conflate the transcripts? 

ETA: Here's @tv echo'a transcript: 

Quote

SA: "William's grandparents are the - they're not the great unknown, but there's always a gap in time, so we've alluded to the fact that, um - Samanda Watson - the fact that we've claimed that William's mother, Samantha, died in a car crash under suspicious circumstances. Um, we haven't gone over her parents or how Oliver came to have custody of her [sic]. Um, and that would be a very, very interesting story to go through. And I don't think that we can - I think the longer that we go with William - his son, we're going to keep going with him... That's going to be something that we're going to have to explore. And I'm pretty good about that. When I feel like there's an elephant in the room in terms of story not being told. There's been a big part of - I can't reveal it, but there's been a big part that sort of existed for me in episode 10, 11, and we're filming 12 right now? We're finishing up 11. Um, and I addressed that with the writers, like, okay, this has gone past the point of being a elephant in the room. This is something I feel we need to expand upon. And we normally do. So I think we'll get to that eventually.

Edited November 20, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

Just now, leopardprint said:

Oh I thought it had to do with Myson's Chekhov's Grandparents?

Or did I just conflate the transcripts? 

Nah, he was just saying that they're the elephant in the room that needs to be addressed as time goes on and he thinks it will, and as an example he referenced something that happens in 610-612.

[bijoux]

So Dig can’t come to the WestAllen wedding because of an injury, but then Barry whisks him over to officiate an impromptu wedding? One, nice one, Barry, make an injured dude puke his guts out. Two, Dig so  got ordained in order to be able to marry Olicity one day. ?

[leopardprint]

46 minutes ago, bijoux said:

So Dig can’t come to the WestAllen wedding because of an injury, but then Barry whisks him over to officiate an impromptu wedding? One, nice one, Barry, make an injured dude puke his guts out. Two, Dig so  got ordained in order to be able to marry Olicity one day. ?

I want the next crossover to be about all the wronged Diggles exacting revenge on Barry and then everyone not stopping them because they kind of have a point. And then Iris ends up with the Speedforce and becomes the new Flash. 

The End. 

[Featherhat]

Well Myson's grandparents, who apparently Oliver has met and thinks they would be ok guardians have been bound to show up at some point. The only question is weather William goes to stay with them for a (Thea) long while (or maybe primarily with visitation) or he stays with Olive after a tense episode, or either they get some "William is visiting GGs" lines or they want to write me mostly off the screen and available for guest appearances. Maybe both? Oliver won't lose custody but he'll be with Grandparents or Raisa (more so than already) in 6B?

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think at some point the grandparents will show up — because why mention them in the first episode — and Oliver and MySon will have several very emotional (picture me RME here) scenes of "should you stay or should you go" before Oliver tells MySon to go with his grandparents because he and MySon have established a strong father-myson relationship that can withstand distance. There will be lots of promises of visiting, facetiming, etc. There will also be a scene of MySon clinging to Felicity and telling her she's the coolest step-mom ever. 

Unless they really want to keep MySon around forever and ever. Then I guess he'll be spending a lot of time cleaning his room with Raisa and eating granola offscreen.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[leopardprint]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think at some point the grandparents will show up — because why mention them in the first episode — and Oliver and MySon will have several very emotional (picture me RME here) scenes of "should you stay or should you go" before Oliver tells MySon to go with his grandparents because he and MySon have established a strong father-myson relationship that can withstand distance. There will be lots of promises of visiting, facetiming, etc. There will also be a scene of MySon clinging to Felicity and telling her she's the coolest step-mom ever. 

And Myson will finally call Oliver "Mydad". Ugh...I mean...awwwww.