Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Mellowyellow]

I love Felicity to death and I can confidently say I am a HUGE Felicity fan. The trouble is this is Oliver's show. If Felicity is not the main love interest, she is not going to get leading lady status or airtime devoted to her. I am not saying it's right but I think that's the way it is.

So as a Felicity fan, even though I kinda hate Oliver right now, I am still rooting for the ship because I know no olicity = no Felicity  .

Sure I could enjoy it if they gave Felicity an awesome arc and a new epic LI of her own in the end. But realistically that is never going to happen.

So I wallow and freak out when it looks like they are cancelling Olicity because that means they are effectively cancelling Felicity. Tina will get the airtime/storylines etc

[statsgirl]

True.  The only female character to get any attention devoted to her on this show is Oliver's love interest, as KC knew.

26 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

IMO Just like it is unfair to downplay felicity because she doesn't have a mask, I think it unfair to say tina will be "just another mask" when we haven't even met her yet. She can be a mask and a good character.

I don't mean to downplay Tina, and I wish JH all the best with her. She seems like a nice person with her head screwed on well.  I wanted to reply to your statement

Quote

If you mean Olicity shippers, Tina could convert people. There's no way to know until she actually joins the show.

I think people can like her but I don't think she will be as effective as EBR if they decide to try an Oliver/Tina ship.  SA/Oliver works best when he is the straight man, against Barry or Felicity, and Ray only clicked when they started putting him in scenes against Grumpy Cat Oliver.  Given the casting side, I see Tina as someone like Sara or Lyla rather than Felicity or Barry.  Speaking as someone who 100% understood why Oliver would have got together with Sara in real life but didn't enjoy it on the show, no matter how good Tina is with Oliver or how well JH acts her, I doubt it would be as good for me as Oliver was with Felicity

[Mellowyellow]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think people can like her but I don't think she will be as effective as EBR if they decide to try an Oliver/Tina ship.  SA/Oliver works best when he is the straight man, against Barry or Felicity, and Ray only clicked when they started putting him in scenes against Grumpy Cat Oliver.  Given the casting side, I see Tina as someone like Sara or Lyla rather than Felicity or Barry.  Speaking as someone who 100% understood why Oliver would have got together with Sara in real life but didn't enjoy it on the show, no matter how good Tina is with Oliver or how well JH acts her, I doubt it would be as good for me as Oliver was with Felicity

You've hit the nail on the head for me.

I am somewhat a flexible shipper because I loved Felicity/Barry and Felicity/Ray. 

I started watching the show because at that point I had been told Olicity was the main ship. I was amused that the seemingly grumpy/sour lead was with this perky/cheerful very charming girl I had just seen on the Flash instead of the tough angry chick I imagined he'd be with.

I think you are right, chances are they are not going to write Tina as a charming Barry/Felicity character.  

[insomniadreams88]

I think it all comes down to the fact that Oliver is going to be forming a connection with Tina at the same time Felicity is going down a dark path and with people not on the team. It may not come across that way on screen, but it sounds like they're trying to give O/T time to develop - as friends, as a future couple, whatever - while keeping Felicity out of the picture. Now that may just be down to interviews/what little we know about the timing of Felicity's arc and if/when someone will notice and be there for her. 

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, GirlvsTV said:

I was trying to come up with ONE recurring (2+ consecutive eps) female character, who was single and not related to Oliver, that appeared on the show and was NOT a LI for Oliver - and the only one I could think of was LL's s1 friend. Except I'm not sure she ever met Oliver on the show. 

It's hard to say with certainty because the "storyline" was so boring, but didn't it turn out in the end that Poppy had nothing to do romantically with Oliver? The only onscreen hint to romance I can remember is hallucination Shado telling Oliver he loved Poppy.

[sara1121]

5 hours ago, LeighAn said:

This isnt directed entirely at you but Im sorry:

So now Olicity is over, TinOliver forever, Felicity is going to leave the show and come back for "very special appearances" AND become a Villan because...

Honestly I'm not trying to be snarky and defensive but this reasoning is all becoming exhausting about stuff that has no absolutely no basis in fact.

Yeah, of course Felicity becoming a villain is very unlikely. It was a joke. And exactly why I said in parenthesis that I said it was unlikely.

If you want to talk about facts (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm honestly not fanatically fixated on one single scenario. ) :

Black Canary:

Fact. Reddit spoiler guy says 5.10 ends with a Canary Cry. Reddit guy has been right before. (Not 100% sure - promo fits with the Reddit guy doesn't it?)

Fact. 5.11 Next episode Tina turns up. Oliver and other guys go on road trip.

Fact. No other appropriate casting reports for females (apart from Talia) exist for the season thus far.

Fact. Sides for Tina's casting include fighting.  JH has tweets with Bamford and reports of stunt work.

Fact. TVLine says Tina has an island of her own.

Fact. Multiple mentions of finding a New Black Canary by Laurel in show and producers in media/social media.

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): She's the new Black Canary.

Oliver/Susan and Oliver/Tina

Fact. Sides also feature flirting and kissing between Oliver and Tina

Fact MG sent out tweet "Here's your occasional reminder that on Arrow and Legends we write FAKE SIDES because we know they're going to get leaked by casting sites."

Fact. TVLine says: “SCPD Detective Tina Boland will form a connection with Oliver, seeing as ‘she has been through her own hell, her own sort of island.'”

Fact. Oliver and Susan are currently involved in some form and will be "all in" at some point. 

Fact. Felicity will be drawing away from the team. From WM: “and that’s going to draw her away from the team and lead her to do some things that are pretty morally questionable.”

Unknown? Carly Pope's current status with the show. Not sure if she has been seen filming recently.

Unknown? Whether JH and SA had a chemistry test.

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): Felicity is drawing away from the team. Oliver is currently with Susan, but she is also shady. Not sure if CP has been filming recently. She has short term written all over her. Oliver and Tina will have a connection. I think Oliver/Tina will at the very least share a flirtation and the writers intend to launch a trial balloon. No, I don't think they're going to declare their eternal love this season, nor do I think it is certain. But  I think they're a least going to set it up and keep in play for the future (possibly season 6).  It's not fixed in stone. MG says that the sides are fake. But that could just mean that exact scene is fake, but the general tone of the scene is what they're interested in ie. to show chemistry with Oliver. Doesn't have to mean they are going to film that exact scene for that show. Depends whether JH ever chem tested with SA

Oliver/Felicity:

Fact. Oliver killed Felicity's boyfriend. We see Oliver tell Felicity. We see Oliver get the team's hugs and attention in the wake of Billy's death. We see Oliver kissing Susan while Felicity cries alone by herself. We don't see Oliver checking on Felicity.

Fact. 5x08 Oliver's dream world/hallucination he was married to Laurel. Smoak Technologies was the portal to the real world. Romantic Olicity scenes, but only in flashbacks to the past.

Fact 5x09. The Olicity scene was a flashback to something that happened years ago.

Fact. WM says they have some ideas for season 6. O/F are a "central core relationship and as writers you have that opportunity to explore it. And you can take it many different directions. We definitely have some ideas about where we’re headed in Season 6."

Not known by me: Sorry I really don't follow the reports of private chats that MG has with jbuffyangel etc except if they are mentioned here because I personally find them to be vastly over optimistic interpretations of what actually does occur. YMMV

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): Not much to point to anything good for O/F romantically at this stage.

Edited January 5, 2017 by sara1121

[bijoux]

Have there been reports of BC sightings after 510? Is there anything confirming that Tina suits up straight away? It's obvious based on that one BTS photo that she does start working with the team pretty quickly but I don't remember any clues about her suiting up post haste.

[sara1121]

That's a good point. No as far as I know there isn't any reports of BC or her suiting up. That could be her arc for the season? Becoming BC and joining the team to overcome her "island". Or evidence against her being BC at this stage.

Edited January 5, 2017 by sara1121

[Midnight Lullaby]

I find the idea that they might introduce the other half of the "endgame couple" in the last part of season 5 unlikely because I have watched enough television to see how it usually works. The exceptions exist of course but mostly because an actor/actress leaves the show.

But I have also watched a few CW show to know not to rule out any temporary hookup, whether it makes sense or not.

I was thinking about Felicity's arc..a smart move would be to look for Evelyn bit I think the show might have forgotten about her, LOL.

[LeighAn]

3 hours ago, sara1121 said:

Yeah, of course Felicity becoming a villain is very unlikely. It was a joke. And exactly why I said in parenthesis that I said it was unlikely.

If you want to talk about facts (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm honestly not fanatically fixated on one single scenario. ) :

Black Canary:

Fact. Reddit spoiler guy says 5.10 ends with a Canary Cry. Reddit guy has been right before. (Not 100% sure - promo fits with the Reddit guy doesn't it?)

Fact. 5.11 Next episode Tina turns up. Oliver and other guys go on road trip.

Fact. No other appropriate casting reports for females (apart from Talia) exist for the season thus far.

Fact. Sides for Tina's casting include fighting.  JH has tweets with Bamford and reports of stunt work.

Fact. TVLine says Tina has an island of her own.

Fact. Multiple mentions of finding a New Black Canary by Laurel in show and producers in media/social media.

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): She's the new Black Canary.

Oliver/Susan and Oliver/Tina

Fact. Sides also feature flirting and kissing between Oliver and Tina

Fact MG sent out tweet "Here's your occasional reminder that on Arrow and Legends we write FAKE SIDES because we know they're going to get leaked by casting sites."

Fact. TVLine says: “SCPD Detective Tina Boland will form a connection with Oliver, seeing as ‘she has been through her own hell, her own sort of island.'”

Fact. Oliver and Susan are currently involved in some form and will be "all in" at some point. 

Fact. Felicity will be drawing away from the team. From WM: “and that’s going to draw her away from the team and lead her to do some things that are pretty morally questionable.”

Unknown? Carly Pope's current status with the show. Not sure if she has been seen filming recently.

Unknown? Whether JH and SA had a chemistry test.

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): Felicity is drawing away from the team. Oliver is currently with Susan, but she is also shady. Not sure if CP has been filming recently. She has short term written all over her. Oliver and Tina will have a connection. I think Oliver/Tina will at the very least share a flirtation and the writers intend to launch a trial balloon. No, I don't think they're going to declare their eternal love this season, nor do I think it is certain. But  I think they're a least going to set it up and keep in play for the future (possibly season 6).  It's not fixed in stone. MG says that the sides are fake. But that could just mean that exact scene is fake, but the general tone of the scene is what they're interested in ie. to show chemistry with Oliver. Doesn't have to mean they are going to film that exact scene for that show. Depends whether JH ever chem tested with SA

Oliver/Felicity:

Fact. Oliver killed Felicity's boyfriend. We see Oliver tell Felicity. We see Oliver get the team's hugs and attention in the wake of Billy's death. We see Oliver kissing Susan while Felicity cries alone by herself. We don't see Oliver checking on Felicity.

Fact. 5x08 Oliver's dream world/hallucination he was married to Laurel. Smoak Technologies was the portal to the real world. Romantic Olicity scenes, but only in flashbacks to the past.

Fact 5x09. The Olicity scene was a flashback to something that happened years ago.

Fact. WM says they have some ideas for season 6. O/F are a "central core relationship and as writers you have that opportunity to explore it. And you can take it many different directions. We definitely have some ideas about where we’re headed in Season 6."

Not known by me: Sorry I really don't follow the reports of private chats that MG has with jbuffyangel etc except if they are mentioned here because I personally find them to be vastly over optimistic interpretations of what actually does occur. YMMV

My opinion (NOT fact, but speculation based on facts): Not much to point to anything good for O/F romantically at this stage.

But not a single one of those FACTS = Tina and Oliver are 100% in love endgame foreva Olicity is dead Felicity is going to be written out of the show. Not even in the slightest. The only thing I'll give credit to are the sides which bpils down to whether we trust the writers when they say their fake.

Until then everything becomes a wait and see approach. Maybe Tina is Black Canary and Oliver end game great love but there's just as likely she's another mask on the team who could possibly be Wild Dog great love since they certainly seem to have a hard on for him. 

Everything is a possibility not a probability or a certainty like some people seem to act and refuse to accept is anything but garunteed. 

I know this is going to come off rude to some but I think if people are at a at a point where they don't like the writers don't like the show don't like the characters or how their being written and don't like any of the outcomes they feel are certain to come to pass- why are people then letting themselves get worked up by the show and then being grossly negative to those who are choosing to be sceptical but not outright pessimistic? Who are choosing to wait and see for a possible silver lining?

Maybe it's naive and we are going to look like morons who will have to hide in embarrassed shame but it's far less exhausting. 

[sara1121]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

But not a single one of those FACTS = Tina and Oliver are 100% in love endgame foreva Olicity is dead Felicity is going to be written out of the show.

Please show me where in my post I said any of those things? You said you wanted things based in facts. Those were facts, and my speculation based on them. And I think if you you write in a post "I know this is going to come off as rude" you probably are going to come off as rude? I'm not asking you to interpret the same way. I just want you to stop telling me that I'm not allowed to speculate because it doesn't agree with your interpretation.

Edited January 5, 2017 by sara1121

[LeighAn]

To clarify a little more cause I don't want to come across like I'm dictating what people can discuss and apologise if it feels like I am: 

I guess I'm just venting my frustration at the fact that it seems every conversation always comes back to Olicity is dead or the writers are loving on or testing a new endgame with Tina/Oliver because comics when we have the exact same information that we have had since the start of the season and none of that information points one way or the other. I guess I'd rather hold my pessimism till there's actually something to genuinely be pessimistic about is all I'm saying. 

Im sorry if came off antagonistic. 

[dtissagirl]

9 hours ago, LeighAn said:

You also have to remember Olicity is WB/CW couple, they used them repeatedly to advertise the show and the show DVDs. So they see Olicity as a marketable commodity. They would likely have the market research that suggests to them Olicity is a marketable commodity.

Yes, this. I still think the O/F stall was mandated by WB/CW. After the Tribune deal went through, plus the new Netflix deal, they realized Arrow's gonna keep going at least until season seven -- possibly even further if SA re-ups his contract -- and thus O/F needs to slow down in S5 with two more seasons to go, per network executive logic. Who all believe the Moonlighting curse is a thing that exists in nature. And it's irrelevant that we know it's dumb -- we've seen the stupid curse stall 'ship on TV for the last two and a half decades in the exact. same. fucking. way.

So. Typical WB/CW stall, but made that much worse by this show being showrunned by Guggenheim.  Who not only truly believes the Moonlighting curse [he's conjured it up in interviews and everything], but who also truly believes the single possible way to stall a relationship is to throw temporary love interests at it.
 

8 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Someone was right when they said something along the lines of never ship a non comic pairing cuz it'll end badly. 

My Top #1 OTPest OTP of all OTPs is a non comic pairing [Chloe/Ollie], and I have never in my life been as satisfied/entertained/wish-fulfilled/fanserviced as I was with them.
 

8 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think the idea of a Sara/Oliver type hook up is crazy, I don't think so but I can see why people would think it might be happening. But I find it really unlikely that the show is putting so much importance on Tina and her potentially having chemistry with Oliver and they're considering changing the main relationship they spent 4 seasons building up especially when they've already had to go through changing it once before to even get to olicity.

Yup. Oliver/Tina happening = this is the CW and this is Guggie, but I can't turn them hooking up into a bona fide end game 'shippy switcheroo. Not yet, there's no evidence. But it would definitely fit the 'ship stalling mandate they're writing the show under right now.

Edited January 5, 2017 by dtissagirl

[sara1121]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I guess I'd rather hold my pessimism till there's actually something to genuinely be pessimistic about is all I'm saying. 

Im sorry if came off antagonistic. 

Okay. I'm sorry if I am coming off as antagonistic also. Yes, everyone has their own pessimism thresholds and yes, obviously I'm already there now. Trust me I'd love to be wrong! And yes, I'm pretty much at the point of giving up now anyway, so you will probably have one less pessimist on the board to worry about sooner rather than later.  

Edited January 5, 2017 by sara1121

[dtissagirl]

My brand of pessimism is that even if O/F reunites this season, I fear Guggenheim will break them up every dozen episodes or so -- either by actual break up, or by using separation tropes [amnesia, going undercover, magic serum making one of them evil, etc] -- for however long Arrow lasts.

[LeighAn]

I could see an Oliver Tina hookup but not a full blown relationship or love triangle. In the event that it were to happen though I think it would be entirely done to illicit a reaction from Felicity and spurn on Olicity drama/eventual reunion. Sort in similar vein as Veronica and Logan in season 2 once they moved on from Duncan and they used Logan other love interest to heighten Veronica and Logan's story. 

 

They can have Felicity being an absent player in Oliver and Susan since she's on her own storyline island  (even though I still argue Felicity won't be an absent player and will react to Susan) They can't have Felicity be an absent player and Olicity not acknowledge when Oliver is literally with another team member under Felicitys nose.

My one 'but' is that Marc apparently said over Twitter convos that they are trying to avoid I guess over the top drama this season presumably in response to the reaction of baby mamma drama and their disengaged character writing certainly seems to be a results of avoiding drama at all cost even if it is organic and needed I.e Felicity and Oliver act like nothing happened between them last season in order to carry on without drama.

So I'm sceptical the writers are really keen to create Baby Mamma type levels of drama again on the show but who knows.

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

My one 'but' is that Marc apparently said over Twitter convos that they are trying to avoid I guess over the top drama this season presumably in response to the reaction of baby mamma drama and their disengaged character writing certainly seems to be a results of avoiding drama at all cost even if it is organic and needed I.e Felicity and Oliver act like nothing happened between them last season in order to carry on without drama.

Wait, he said that? I missed it. OH MY GOD this explains everything. THAT'S WHY O/F feels so underwritten and weird and awkward and horrible this season? To avoid ~drama~ they're not writing anything at all? Holy fuck. This show, man. One day I'm gonna enroll in a Masters just so I can write academy papers on this shit.

[MaisyDaisy]

I actually like that this is a place where people are able to discuss and talk about their opinions- even the whacky ones they are just throwing out for thought.

I enjoy reading opinions that are not the usual Olicity mafia official line. Critical thinking tells us to question everything.

If I want to feel chastised for questioning the direction the story is heading I will head to tumblr, although I have seen some discord there too as people are sick of being policed.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Wait, he said that? I missed it. OH MY GOD this explains everything. THAT'S WHY O/F feels so underwritten and weird and awkward and horrible this season? To avoid ~drama~ they're not writing anything at all? Holy fuck. This show, man. One day I'm gonna enroll in a Masters just so I can write academy papers on this shit.

Supposedly. It was being discussed on Twitter that he told some that over dm. Presumably Jbuffy since I think she's probably the only fan he trust but he's talked to other fans through dm this season. 

Dont count it as gospel but yeah that's the rumour. They are trying to avoid too much drama. Which of true explains the everyone is fine with everyone's behaviour actions mentality this season.

[sara1121]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

To avoid ~drama~ they're not writing anything at all? Holy fuck. This show, man. One day I'm gonna enroll in a Masters just so I can write academy papers on this shit.

I feel like every time a romance fails on a show that writers take away the wrong message. They always think, we should never have  gotten them together. eg Moonlighting Curse. But it's rarely the mere fact that they got together that is the issue. It's the story lines they do with them after that point. The writers seem to think the disaster was in O/F being together at all. The problem was the contrived way that they broke them up, not the way when they were together. But yeah, it's always totally because they got together at all (cue me rolling my eyes).

Edited January 5, 2017 by sara1121

[lemotomato]

38 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I actually like that this is a place where people are able to discuss and talk about their opinions- even the whacky ones they are just throwing out for thought.

I enjoy reading opinions that are not the usual Olicity mafia official line. Critical thinking tells us to question everything.

If I want to feel chastised for questioning the direction the story is heading I will head to tumblr, although I have seen some discord there too as people are sick of being policed.

If you enjoy reading theories about how Olicity is dead, and that Felicity/EBR  is being written off the show, and Tina/Oliver is the show's new endgame, I suggest twitter. Pretty much 90% of Olicity fans there think that way.

Edited January 5, 2017 by lemotomato

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I actually like that this is a place where people are able to discuss and talk about their opinions- even the whacky ones they are just throwing out for thought.

I enjoy reading opinions that are not the usual Olicity mafia official line. Critical thinking tells us to question everything.

If I want to feel chastised for questioning the direction the story is heading I will head to tumblr, although I have seen some discord there too as people are sick of being policed.

There's a difference between scepticism, differing opinions, and even storyline pessmisim and outright garunteed no silver lining 100% negativity and worst case scenario specs that come across rather gloaty sometimes is all I'm saying. 

I apologised if I came of harsh or "policing" I'm slightly frustrated and had a bad week off line which probably hasn't helped my behaviour online. 

Ill try to live by the "you do you I'll do me" policy but I'd also hope that people who are on the uber pessmisim scale can also have some restraint in turning even the most generic of spoilers and conversations into how Olicity is probably dead and Oliver and Tina are endgame.

If people can't then I can't stop them but it may mean I don't post anymore which is a shame because I've enjoyed my first foray into online forum posting and the conversations here.

[Trisha]

12 minutes ago, MaisyDaisy said:

I actually like that this is a place where people are able to discuss and talk about their opinions- even the whacky ones they are just throwing out for thought.

Seconded! I'm pretty new here - I had to get off Tumblr because as soon as I started doubting the always-positive fans, it became a not fun echo chamber really quickly. I still have hope for Olicity and think the Tina stuff might be overblown. But unlike what I was seeing on Tumblr, speculation and doubt isn't immediately dismissed as worrywart hysteria here. Everyone has different opinions, tend to be respectful about it, and that's awesome. 

[dtissagirl]

Maybe we should all collectively try and stop making spoiler SPECULATION into a game of who's right and who's wrong. Who the fuck even cares? It's spec about an aging dumb show on the pretty face network. Being wrong or right about spec is irrelevant. The FUN is in speculating.

Edited January 5, 2017 by dtissagirl

[Bort]

Please keep the discussion to speculation about the show content and not critique about other posters' speculation. That way lies madness...

[Belinea]

What actually surprises me: Why doesn't Prometheus just out Oliver and his team? I have never understood why no bad guy does it. Collect some evidence and give it to the public. It feels as though these bad guys just want to do their punishing in the dark.

Obviously it would be difficult for the show once they'd be outed because of the killing and stuff but it always surprises me that nobody even blackmails him with that.

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Belinea said:

What actually surprises me: Why doesn't Prometheus just out Oliver and his team? I have never understood why no bad guy does it. Collect some evidence and give it to the public. It feels as though these bad guys just want to do their punishing in the dark.

Obviously it would be difficult for the show once they'd be outed because of the killing and stuff but it always surprises me that nobody even blackmails him with that.

I actually think this season may end in Oliver outing himself Tony Stark style as part of a strike against Prometheus and fall out/recovery from the Susan expose. It'd be a away to take the show in a new direction given this season is suppose to close out the original story arch and soft reboot the show (if that line wasn't another oversell from oversell Mericele). 

[insomniadreams88]

24 minutes ago, Belinea said:

What actually surprises me: Why doesn't Prometheus just out Oliver and his team? I have never understood why no bad guy does it. Collect some evidence and give it to the public. It feels as though these bad guys just want to do their punishing in the dark.

Obviously it would be difficult for the show once they'd be outed because of the killing and stuff but it always surprises me that nobody even blackmails him with that.

I've had the same thought. I guess because Prometheus wants Oliver to suffer and it would be more difficult to do his thing if the public knew who he - and everyone else on the team - is? Maybe that'll be part of his game plan in 5B - would actually be interesting to watch as the team has to scramble to cover their tracks in the event that that happens. 

[Belinea]

25 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Soft reboot the show (if that line wasn't another oversell from oversell Mericle). 

At this point it feels like they are rebooting it softly every year. I am always surprised that they have their sights set on season 6 way before the second half of the season is properly done. I know why they do it. That is not the problem. It just surprise me that they talk about stuff that the viewer will not be able see for almost a year. 

[LeighAn]

I think shows always need to think about upcoming seasons in some respects because generally shows build up to a storyline completion in the finale while creating new storylines or cliff hangers for the next season. So I guess there is a flow in effect. 

I remember during my Gossip Girl phase notes from the writers room and passed down notes from the network leaked online (also scripts and production episode outlines) to the point that the writers got the WB to send out letters threatening to sue. 

Anyway, from those notes there would be the basic episode or season outlines and then their would just be a general brainstorming ideas where they'd just throw out all the possible ideas they'd like to explore eventually on the show. So I think writers are always thinking ahead.

Also these leaks were happening for a season and a half before the writers caught on and pulled out the lawyers and if I learnt anything from that time it's that storylines could change on a dime. The notes were being released fairly regularly and the leaks would suggest the show would be going one way week on week for months and then all of sudden completely go down a different direction sometimes with in a week. 

So bringing this back to Arrow it shows me that it's not hard for shows to make hard changes in course based on viewer reception or Network requests. So Ive never really believed Marc when he's said they don't write based on fan reaction or that veiwer influence doesn't play a part because even though it's a different show the insider notes being leaked show that's not entirely true. 

Also one of the leaks was a note from the Network in regards to Chuck and Blair which was "How long can you get away with keeping Chuck and Blair apart" * which again doesn't prove anything one way or the other for Arrow but might explain some things about how Olicity is being written. 

*And trust me as bad as the stalls for Chuck and Blair were they brainstormed A LOT worse. I remember one of the brainstorm leaks  having things like Chuck gets Cancer/Chuck gets aids as a possible story point. 

[tv echo]

I mentioned this briefly before, but I want to elaborate...

This season's theme is legacy. The word "legacy" can be defined as "something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past" or as "anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor." 

I think this season is setting up two meanings for the legacy theme, one familial and one archetypal.

One: the familial legacy theme is the short-term theme (limited to this season).  Oliver's father-to-son legacy regarding righting past wrongs and saving the city.  Prometheus' father-to-son legacy (if they stick with Prometheus being Justin Claybourne's son).  A possible Diggle father-to-son legacy (perhaps to explain why they switched Diggle's child to a son who's a potential future superhero).  A possible Thea father-to-daughter legacy (if Malcolm's return later in the season involves a Thea storyline).  A possible Felicity father-to-daughter legacy (if Felicity's "dark path" starts to mirror her father's path and Tom Amandes returns as Noah Kuttler).

Two: the archetypal legacy theme could be the long-term theme, namely, that the superhero moniker survives the person bearing it and can be passed on to a successor.  Laurel dies, but "Black Canary" survives because someone else takes on that mantle.*  Similarly, Adrian Chase could die (like in the comics), but "Vigilante" could be taken over by someone else.  Even Oliver could die, but "Green Arrow" could be someone else (like Connor Hawke transported from the future or an alternate Earth).  This could also pave the way for Arrow to continue without SA if he decided not to renew his contract after S7 and TPTB still wanted the show to continue.

(* This is based on the assumption that there will be a New BC this season.)

Edited January 6, 2017 by tv echo

[LeighAn]

Just now, tv echo said:

 

Two: the archetypal legacy theme could be the long-term theme, namely, that the superhero moniker survives the person bearing it and can be passed on to a successor.  Laurel dies, but "Black Canary" survives because someone else takes on that mantle.   Similarly, Adrian Chase could die (like in the comics), but "Vigilante" could be taken over by someone else.  Even Oliver could die, but "Green Arrow" could be someone else (like Connor Hawke transported from the future or an alternate Earth).  This could also pave the way for Arrow to continue without SA if he decided not to renew his contract after S7 and TPTB still wanted the show to continue.

I definitely could see this being a set up and could envision a DKR ending where Oliver fakes his death to go a live a life with Felicity and hand the mantle over to someone else Bruce/Selina/Robin style. 

The only qualm I have with Black Canary is they literally put Black Canary on Laurels tombstone and erected a statue on Black Canarys honor to pay homage and respects to her death so they didn't really leave much of an open mantle for another Black Canary to carry on since they basically told the world that the Black Canary died with Laurel.

Which just makes Laurels promise to Oliver and his reaction to that that much funnier and mockable.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

The only qualm I have with Black Canary is they literally put Black Canary on Laurels tombstone and erected a statue on Black Canarys honor to pay homage and respects to her death so they didn't really leave much of an open mantle for another Black Canary to carry on since they basically told the world that the Black Canary died with Laurel.

Which just makes Laurels promise to Oliver and his reaction to that that much funnier and mockable.

I think that's why they're going to have BS destroy the statue. Sure, it's still written on Laurel's gravestone, but it's another thing to have a giant statue of the previous BC when a new one is going to be popping up?

Maybe Oliver will hold a press conference to announce, "Oh, isn't it wonderful that the BC legacy is being carried on by, uh, someone, I have no idea who it is (and ignore the fact that there's a new detective in town with the skills, and she popped up right after I took some vacation time). I'm completely in the dark, even though last year, I revealed that my ex-GF was BC, who protected the city with three people and it's not a stretch to imagine they had someone else helping them, maybe on computers, and what do you know, me, my ex-fiancee (who went to MIT and would be able to work computers), my sister and my former bodyguard hung out with her all the time. And it's not suspicious that none of us had any other friends. But I have no idea who this new person is going around as BC. No idea whatsoever. But this is a good thing."

You know, they could have had Susan (or some other reporter) decide to start looking into that - if Laurel was BC, doesn't it seem a bit obvious who the other masks are in town? Then the reporter could have maybe felt torn between continuing to dig - it would be a good story - and leaving it be - isn't it better to not reveal who they are because they're protecting the city? Especially if it's around the same time Prometheus showed up and started dropping bodies? 

[tv echo]

Assuming that there will be a New Black Canary (and I don't think that's a certainty at this point), I think that the decision to introduce a New BC wasn't made until sometime after the S4 finale aired - perhaps due to some b-t-s shenanigans and/or DC interference. That would explain the "BC" on Laurel's tombstone and why Laurel's final words to Oliver were changed over the summer.

Edited January 5, 2017 by tv echo

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I remember during my Gossip Girl phase notes from the writers room and passed down notes from the network leaked online (also scripts and production episode outlines) to the point that the writers got the WB to send out letters threatening to sue. 

It's funny you bring up GG because I've been thinking a lot about how it played out in the later years, and how Arrow could follow suit. Even though they clearly knew they Chair would be endgame, they introduced Dair and let them be a couple for almost a whole season. I actually preferred them as a couple (Chuck treated her terribly) but even at the time I recognized it as an endgame stalling tactic. And the GG writers seemed to love it because it created so much fandom anger, which led to the show getting buzz again (even if it wasn't positive).

I don't think Arrow would do something like that because Olicity is still generating lots of buzz (or it did last year, at least), but past CW shenanigans have burned me. 

[LeighAn]

14 minutes ago, Trisha said:

It's funny you bring up GG because I've been thinking a lot about how it played out in the later years, and how Arrow could follow suit. Even though they clearly knew they Chair would be endgame, they introduced Dair and let them be a couple for almost a whole season. I actually preferred them as a couple (Chuck treated her terribly) but even at the time I recognized it as an endgame stalling tactic. And the GG writers seemed to love it because it created so much fandom anger, which led to the show getting buzz again (even if it wasn't positive).

I don't think Arrow would do something like that because Olicity is still generating lots of buzz (or it did last year, at least), but past CW shenanigans have burned me. 

I guess the thing is Gossip Girl was driven on relationship shenanigans. Thats the point of the show-gossip and drama and people back stabbing and spreading rumors about one anther and getting caught up in scandal. So the musical ships made sense on that show because that was Gossip Girl.

Arrow is not driven by romantic plot lines and personal drama. They have alway always been B plots to Green Arrow and friends fighting crime. Occassionally they might make a guest apoerance in the A plot every now and then but Arrow is by no means the same show as Gossip Girl and not reliant on ship shenangans in the same way.

So why Im sure Arrow has, is and will pull the same stupid ship stalling they will never be as sudsy soapy and melodramatic as Gossip Girl. So I dont expect some Chair/Dair switcheroo triangle with Olicity and Tina. Especially since the writers went with it two fold to stall Chuck Blair and create Serena/Blair drama because they coukdnt go a season with out a nasty girl fight of some sort.

Also while the Gossip Girl writers did thrive of fandom mekt downs and causing a reaction, the Arrow writers hate fandom drama and melt downs and get pissy and defensive when ever it reaches their timelines.

[LeighAn]

Also IIRC when they had Dan and Blair get together I think the episode directly after they kissed their ratings plummeted from like 1.2 million viewers to like 600,00 - 700,000 or something like that and they never fully recovered. So Gossip Girl is not a good exampke for any show to model itself on. Haha

ETA sorry their veiwership went from 1.3 million pre Dan Blair to 800,000 - 900,000 post/during so not quite as big a bleed but still they werent a successful example for a show. Im pretty sure their demos took massive hits too but I cant find that data.

Edited January 5, 2017 by LeighAn

[Midnight Lullaby]

Olicity reminds me of Pacey/Joey on Dawson's creek more than any other couple..Idk if it's because of Berlanti..the endgame couple was supposed to be another one but half of it was insufferable, they left together at the end of season 3, they were together for most of season 4, in season 5 they acted as if they have never been together, both dated other people and in season 6 they realized they were in love and ended up together.

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Olicity reminds me of Pacey/Joey on Dawson's creek more than any other couple..Idk if it's because of Berlanti..the endgame couple was supposed to be another one but half of it was insufferable, they left together at the end of season 3, they were together for most of season 4, in season 5 they acted as if they have never been together, both dated other people and in season 6 they realized they were in love and ended up together.

Yeah thats a much better comparison especially because convincing Kevin Williamson the show was better off exploring Pacey/Joey was probably one of the best tv decision made and in probably kept it on the air and made it relevant. And to then convince Kevin to end the show against his original vision because it was a better story!  From what Ive read that dude seemed pretty set on Dawson and Joey so I give Berlanti big props on changing his mind.

[insomniadreams88]

You know what I'd like to see? Similar to that outline MG posted about the pilot, I'd like to see any notes from previous seasons about the next season. (Like what they thought in S1 they'd do in S2, S2 in S3, S3 in S4, S4 in S5.) I'd like to know if whatever plan they had for Olicity after the breakup is the same as what we see on screen. We know that they had different versions of what LL said, but did they always plan to bring in Tina (or a new female mask mid-S5)? Etc.

[manbearpig]

Remember on Gossip Girl when Chuck and Blair were delayed because B made a promise to God? That's still the dumbest stall tactic I have ever seen and I was actively rooting against that couple since at least the middle of season three. 

[LeighAn]

8 minutes ago, manbearpig said:

Remember on Gossip Girl when Chuck and Blair were delayed because B made a promise to God? That's still the dumbest stall tactic I have ever seen and I was actively rooting against that couple since at least the middle of season three. 

Haha yeah I actually forgot about that! And of course Dan accompanied her to church and encouraged her crazy to get in her pants/heart. 

Gossip Girl was extreme in all senses of the word. After season 2 the show was a so bad it's good and after mid season 4 it was a this garbage Days of our lives has better writing then this. 

Although I still think Bart Bass death the second time around was the most Are you serious? Stab my eye out moment on the show. 

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

both dated other people and in season 6 they realized they were in love and ended up together.

In the very last episode after like, five years apart and Joey considering to get married to the dude she was living with, and Dawson having a speech to her how they're soulmates. Joey/Pacey always was and still one of my OTPest OTPs. But what they did with the ship after season 3 was dumb as hell. They struck gold with the chemistry, and then decided to prop Dawson (who was always The Actual Worst) and turn him into St. Dawson at expense of Pacey, and then pretend their MVP ship simply never happened because Joey/Dawson was supposed to be "It".

I hope the Arrow writers are not as clueless as the DC writers were after season DC's season 4.

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

In the very last episode after like, five years apart and Joey considering to get married to the dude she was living with, and Dawson having a speech to her how they're soulmates. Joey/Pacey always was and still one of my OTPest OTPs. But what they did with the ship after season 3 was dumb as hell. They struck gold with the chemistry, and then decided to prop Dawson (who was always The Actual Worst) and turn him into St. Dawson at expense of Pacey, and then pretend their MVP ship simply never happened because Joey/Dawson was supposed to be "It".

I hope the Arrow writers are not as clueless as the DC writers were after season DC's season 4.

Most of this still makes me think of Arrow too, LOL. Laurel is dead and they still decided to prop her this season and if she was still alive talking about how she and Oliver are soulmates would be the type of thing she could say (because telling him he is the love of her life wasn't embarrassing enough).

[calliope1975]

Oh Pacey and Joey. I still want Pacey to be my boyfriend. I loved S3, quit midway through S5, tuned in for that K-Mart ad/episode in S6 and then watched the finale. Man, I hated Dawson. 

[Trisha]

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Olicity reminds me of Pacey/Joey on Dawson's creek more than any other couple..Idk if it's because of Berlanti..the endgame couple was supposed to be another one but half of it was insufferable, they left together at the end of season 3, they were together for most of season 4, in season 5 they acted as if they have never been together, both dated other people and in season 6 they realized they were in love and ended up together.

That's a much better comparison -- but even scarier than GG when it comes to how that could play out on Arrow. After Joey and Pacey broke up, they pretty much pretended that relationship didn't exist (except for that one memorable season 6 episode in a Kmart), and they really floundered with trying to figure out what to do with Pacey during those years. Then they suddenly put them together in the last episode. 

Unfortunately with Arrow, as @Mellowyellow mentioned earlier, if Felicity isn't the main love interest, time devoted to her storylines will likely decrease accordingly. Yet another reason to hope for an imminent Olicity reunion...

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Unfortunately with Arrow, as @Mellowyellow mentioned earlier, if Felicity isn't the main love interest, time devoted to her storylines will likely decrease accordingly. Yet another reason to hope for an imminent Olicity reunion...

I've had a horrible thought just now that they could make Olicity happened thirty years from now, if we consider that John Jr's existence means that Oliver will lose everything, including Felicity and his arm in the future (according to the LOT episode from s1). The old and withered Green Arrow returns after years of hiding, and he and Felicity reunite in the very last episode at the very last minute.

I hate my brain.

[ComicFan777]

Oh, man.  I can totally see it.  One-armed, old man Oliver comes limping in and says,"I'm sorry about the lies...all these years...I have failed my Felicity."  Then, cyborg Felicity turns around and says, "I no longer possess the human emotions."

[calliope1975]

I choose to believe Felicity will have moved on to Dick Grayson at that point. (Let me dream!) Oliver will be nothing but a distant fond/bittersweet memory.

I also choose to believe JDJ becomes CH a different way than played out on LOT. Aren't LOT supposed to prevent that future? I believe in you, Sara and Company! 

[CooperTV]

16 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

"I no longer possess the human emotions."