Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm not really sure why people can't just skip over discussions in which they're not interested, but this board (not you) seems to have become much less welcoming of differing views this season. The snark level has greatly increased.

To skip over discussions (because  I'm still watching the show and haven't given up on it), I've had to skip out on this entire thread. Which is unfortunate because while I love spoilers and discussing spoilers, I feel like this has turned into the "preemptive bitterness about things that haven't happened yet" thread.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, lemotomato said:

To skip over discussions (because  I'm still watching the show and haven't given up on it), I've had to skip out on this entire thread. Which is unfortunate because while I love spoilers and discussing spoilers, I feel like this has turned into the "preemptive bitterness about things that haven't happened yet" thread.

But it's the speculation thread. Its entire purpose is discussing things that haven't happened yet. 

[Velocity23]

[tv echo]

I also want to add the following papp tweet to our collection because I don't think it was posted before...

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[GirlvsTV]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

I must shake my head at anybody believing that the FB means an end for Olicity. 

 

43 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

wow this board will never let go of the BC/GA endgame. Its been a topic for 3 years. And never in those 3 years it become true. I really don't see a scenario where they are gonna try with a new important romantic LI for Oliver outside of O/F. 

Feel free to add in a few shakes for me. They've used flashbacks to ship bait O/L with no intention of revisiting that, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same for Olicity? And why bring back BC if not to put her with GA once and for all? I don't think you can expect this show to follow regular tv rules when it comes to this stuff, since so many of their story decisions make no sense whatsoever. These writers have no problem completely ignoring past characters/relationships and/or gaslighting them to serve whatever purpose the current storyline requires. They have no loyalty to the stories they've told in the past and no interest in story/character continuity.

I'd be much less skeptical about O/F reuniting if it were not for MG and SA's recent attitude problems, combined with the imminent introduction of NuBC. I just think if O/F were still in the cards they would've found a much more diplomatic way to address those questions, especially after the show came back with no buzz and lower ratings.

[way2interested]

So...

Quote

A sin-eater is a person who consumes a ritual meal in order to magically take on the sins of a person or household. Traditionally, the food was believed to absorb the sins of a recently deceased person, thus absolving that person's soul. Consequently, sin-eaters supposedly carried the sins of all people whose souls they "ate."

Ignoring the magic aspect of it (or maybe not?), I guess it's Arrow-language for a character taking on the problems/angst of another character? 

Also, looks like it's written by newbies, I could only find that Jenny Lynn wrote 421.

[Chaser]

I don't recognize the writers for 5x14. New blood.

[apinknightmare]

There's also a Sin-Eater comic character - who is apparently an alien demon - so let's hope we're not going there. 

[ComicFan777]

Sin-eater kinda makes me think of Ragman's suit in comics where it absorbs souls that work off their moral debt by helping him.

I wonder if we find out a little more about his suit, its capabilities/weaknesses, and where it gets its powers from...maybe tying it to what dark!Felicity has been doing.

Edited December 12, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

12 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

But it's the speculation thread. Its entire purpose is discussing things that haven't happened yet. 

That's fine. I just don't believe it will all turn out to be the worst-case scenarios that have been relentlessly repeated here lately (the preemptive bitterness part I mentioned), which is why I've been avoiding this thread.

[Velocity23]

3 minutes ago, GirlvsTV said:

Feel free to add in a few shakes for me. They've used flashbacks to ship bait O/L with no intention of revisiting that, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same for Olicity? And why bring back BC if not to put her with GA once and for all? I don't think you can expect this show to follow regular tv rules when it comes to this stuff, since so many of their story decisions make no sense whatsoever. These writers have no problem completely ignoring past characters/relationships and/or gaslighting them to serve whatever purpose the current storyline requires. They have no loyalty to the stories they've told in the past and no interest in story/character continuity.

I'd be much less skeptical about O/F reuniting if it were not for MG and SA's recent attitude problems, combined with the imminent introduction of NuBC. I just think if O/F were still in the cards they would've found a much more diplomatic way to address those questions, especially after the show came back with no buzz and lower ratings.

But i didnt see anything from BTS of filming that would make me believe that they are moving into a BC/GA or any confirmation that Tina is indeed becoming BC. In fact there was no mention of possible BC since the filming of 5x10. An alley scene for a cop is standard for Arrow. The Tina actress also hasnt been seen sporting a new suit or wearing the BC one. And paps would have no qualms releasing that. Like they did with Mr. Terrific and the noobs during the filming of 4x06. 

[GirlvsTV]

7 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

But i didnt see anything from BTS of filming that would make me believe that they are moving into a BC/GA or any confirmation that Tina is indeed becoming BC. In fact there was no mention of possible BC since the filming of 5x10. An alley scene for a cop is standard for Arrow. The Tina actress also hasnt been seen sporting a new suit or wearing the BC one. And paps would have no qualms releasing that. Like they did with Mr. Terrific and the noobs during the filming of 4x06. 

I think they are just being a lot smarter this year about keeping spoilers from getting out and keeping big stuff in the studio. Maybe Tina isn't NuBC, but given LL's last words, ep description and quotes from the show runner it does seem like there is an intention to revisit that persona. And since it seems like the crux of the GA/BC comic book partnership is that they are romantically involved, I don't think it is too far-fetched to believe the show is headed there once she is introduced. 

[ComicFan777]

For me, the pic (GA and Tina) from the pap of Tina's outfit with the leather jacket looks a lot like what I'd imagine BC to wear makes me lean towards Tina being the next BC - with consideration of LL's last words, MG's mention of BC, and SA's recent FB video.

Edited December 12, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Morrigan2575]

To paraphrase The Princess Bride: You keep using that word (Shipbaiting) I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ship baiting, is by definition something the producers /writers do to tease shippers of unconventional ships that they have no intention of ever putting together. Olicity is the Main Ship for Arrow it has been since the end of S2 (at the latest).  Although, o e could argue they were the main ship for S2 if you take the season in retrospect. Instead Olicity actually happened They were together for almost a whole season (323-415).

Quite honestly I'm baffled by shippers thinking Arrow actually killed Olicity when it's clear to me (and I would assume anyone who's watched a TV show like this before that Olicity is very much on the table). JFC the fact that they reminded viewers about the Olicity wedding 2 episodes in a row should be a clear sign that Olicity will get married soonish (523 Elopement or S6 actual wedding).

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

For me, the pic (GA and Tina) from the pap of Tina's outfit with the leather jacket looks a lot like what I'd imagine BC to wear makes me lean towards Tina being the next BC.

Just going to leave this here.

[ComicFan777]

Could Sin be the next BC?  pretty please...

[Sakura12]

Well to be fair Sin was working with BC. 

[Velocity23]

Tina seems to wear normal street wear for a cop. I mean even Felicity wore  a leather jacket this season

[wonderwall]

I honestly don't understand why it matters who Tina is going to be in terms of code name. We know she's going to be a fighter, so why does it matter if she's BC or Lady Blackhawk or something else?

I also don't understand this worry or need to discuss if she's BC ad nauseum. Everyone has already stated their opinion, so how about we wait and see what they do with the character? Because we certainly can't prove who's right and wrong based on the spoilers we have so far.

Edited December 12, 2016 by wonderwall

[Sunshine]

37 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Sin-eater kinda makes me think of Ragman's suit in comics where it absorbs souls that work off their moral debt by helping him.

I wonder if we find out a little more about his suit, its capabilities/weaknesses, and where it gets its powers from...maybe tying it to what dark!Felicity has been doing.

Rory's rags vs alien demon. What have I gotten myself into?! ?(I don't normally watch this type of show so not sure how I got so hooked.)

[Cleanqueen]

19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

To paraphrase The Princess Bride: You keep using that word (Shipbaiting) I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ship baiting, is by definition something the producers /writers do to tease shippers of unconventional ships that they have no intention of ever putting together. Olicity is the Main Ship for Arrow it has been since the end of S2 (at the latest).  Although, o e could argue they were the main ship for S2 if you take the season in retrospect. Instead Olicity actually happened They were together for almost a whole season (323-415).

Quite honestly I'm baffled by shippers thinking Arrow actually killed Olicity when it's clear to me (and I would assume anyone who's watched a TV show like this before that Olicity is very much on the table). JFC the fact that they reminded viewers about the Olicity wedding 2 episodes in a row should be a clear sign that Olicity will get married soonish (523 Elopement or S6 actual wedding).

This!! It baffles me when Olicity fans say that scene in 5x09 was ship baiting...how could it be ship baiting when Olicity has been a ship who almost got married and was talking about potentially having kids. The couple is no longer a couple but it no way does it mean they are over. If the ship ended then either one of the parties would have to leave the show otherwise there is still a strong chance of them being a couple. Any romantic hints we get is something to further their story, not bait the fans because the fans have already seen a relationship between the couple. Ship baiting on Arrow season 5 is currently happening between Rory and Curtis IMO.

[GirlvsTV]

What can I say, I live to baffle!

That's great you guys have a positive feeling about Olicity, I just don't come away with the same conclusion based off current information and speculation.  We'll have to agree to disagree. 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

So...

Ignoring the magic aspect of it (or maybe not?), I guess it's Arrow-language for a character taking on the problems/angst of another character? 

I agree with your spec. I don't think it's just Arrow-language because I've seen in other places the title of "sin eaters" as a term for people that take on the guilt of other people to relieve them of their burden. 

Right now the two people who feel the guiltiest are probably Felicity and Oliver over what happened to Mayo, so I'm intrigued.

Edited December 12, 2016 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

I don't think it's just Arrow-language because I've seen in other places the title of "sin eaters" as a term for people that take on the guilt of other people to relieve them of their burden. 

Right now the two people who feel the guiltiest are probably Felicity and Oliver over what happened to Mayo, so I'm intrigued.

Would this be the last episode of Feb Sweeps by any chance?

[Sunshine]

5.15 should be as sweeps ends Mar 1.  Then we probably take a break.

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Would this be the last episode of Feb Sweeps by any chance?

I believe it will. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by wonderwall

[Morrigan2575]

40 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Could Sin be the next BC?  pretty please...

 

39 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Well to be fair Sin was working with BC. 

But that's not all she was.  A larger part of her character makeup was "tough street (wise) kid". All I'm saying is jeans/leather jacket is is as likely to indicate that Tina is a "tough street wise cop"

[tv echo]

Sleepy Hollow had a "sin-eater" named Henry Parrish (who, unfortunately, later turned out to be Ichabod's son). But when first introduced, IIRC, he was this interesting character who traveled around the world, visiting death row inmates and consuming the darkness within them. He helped break Ichabod's blood tie to the Headless Horseman.

Edited December 12, 2016 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I agree with your spec. I don't think it's just Arrow-language because I've seen in other places the title of "sin eaters" as a term for people that take on the guilt of other people to relieve them of their burden. 

Right now the two people who feel the guiltiest are probably Felicity and Oliver over what happened to Mayo, so I'm intrigued.

Lucifer (also "loosely based on DC Comics) had a title of Sin Eater earlier this season and it ended up being about both punishing the guilty and accepting your guilt, though I don't think anything can be construed from this for Arrow.

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

But i didnt see anything from BTS of filming that would make me believe that they are moving into a BC/GA or any confirmation that Tina is indeed becoming BC. In fact there was no mention of possible BC since the filming of 5x10. An alley scene for a cop is standard for Arrow. The Tina actress also hasnt been seen sporting a new suit or wearing the BC one. And paps would have no qualms releasing that. Like they did with Mr. Terrific and the noobs during the filming of 4x06. 

As many people have mentioned, there's a lot less BTS/leaks this season, period. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that lack of BTS/leaks proves this thing and disproves that thing.

Edited December 12, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[LeighAn]

I think the sides helped form the basis of people's perception that Tina is Black Canary and Olivers love interest. If you took those completely out of the equation there's not a lot of, almost nothing, evidence to support either her being Black Canary or romantically involved with Oliver. The sides being put out there before Tina was even cast I think has caused spoilers around Tina to be viewed entirely through the lense of those sides. 

I think another issue is that the writers have lost the trust of their audience which has caused people to be sceptical of their intentions. The writers have unfortunately lived up to some people's worst case scenarios in the past that it's hard to trust their intentions regarding the future.

[Velocity23]

So people are just speculating.  The only fact we know that in the episode that BS/LL appear there were call sheets about Oliver and Felicity looking for a BC. Nothing since then. There is also no confirmation on who the said BC might be. What we can see from Tina has her dressed in typical civilian clothes and maybe leather jacket but that was basically worn by every cop on the show this season.  Are we gonna assume this BC wouldn't have been spotted by the paps by now? Honestly i think Tina will become the mask but i have doubts she will honor a woman she didnt even know. I would see it quite more believable that she chooses her own codename. I honestly don't see it at this moment when we know so little why she would choose a BC title. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Velocity23

[Starfish35]

It has nothing to do with the sides, for me.  To me all indications point to them bringing on a new BC, starting with hints from WM before the season started that someone else would be taking up the BC mantle (which I incorrectly interpreted at the time as pointing to Sara), to the scene with Laurel telling Oliver not to let her be the last Canary (there is absolutely no reason to have that scene if they're not going to follow through) to WM saying it would set up a theme that would continue throughout the season to MG saying that Oliver would turn his attention to the specificity of his promise to find a new BC, to everyone suddenly talking up the importance of Black Canary.  To me that all screams that a new BC is coming.  Is it Tina?  Well, time will tell, but the timeframe fits, so I'm thinking yes.

Let me turn it around.  Why are those of you who don't think she's BC, or that there will be a new BC, convinced of that?

[insomniadreams88]

I'd also point to the (pretty much confirmed) spec that the BC statue is going to be destroyed. (And having that happen the episode before Tina's introduction? Well... ) So even if Tina isn't going to be BC, signs do point to a new BC popping up. 

Although, whether Tina masks up as BC or someone else, if she does join the team, doesn't it seem like it would be a bit obvious (say, to Prometheus) that she's the one under a new mask in town? "Hmm, new detective in town. And hey, new masked vigilante in town as well. And this detective came from the same city that three of the team traveled to just last week. Could that be connected?" 

[romantic idiot]

14 hours ago, way2interested said:

Ok, so I do basically agree with your logic (since that's pretty much how people in television do their thing anyway), and this is not me being snarky to you or anything, but it would make me laugh if after 2 years of romantic focus (3, if you count s2, which I personally do since honestly while I was watching s2 semi-live without internet searching I was already convinced they were doing Oliver/Felicity as the endgame pairing just by tv tropes alone), along with all of the "always," the "loves," the visions from Oliver, getting engaged, having the very specialized first date/kiss/time/proposal, etc. they would completely drop it for the entirety of the duration of the series for a character that we meet in almost literally halfway through s5 without any buildup for her. 

It could always happen, but smh at their logic for doing it or even attempting for setting up a new endgame pairing at this point. 

There is precedence. Smallville: Chlark. 

Also to posters from a while back arguing that they couldn't give a character all the traits of an iconic character then, without bts shenanigans, hand the mantle over to an inferior actress who only had the name - see Smallville: Chlois.

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

As long as Laurel/BC was on the show, there was always going to be discussion of a possible GA/BC endgame.

After Laurel's death, that discussion would've ended - except the EPs decided to change Laurel's dying words to about not letting her be the "last Canary," TPTB decided to introduce a new female character named Tina, the papps tweeted about a "new Black Canary," etc.

This.

[Velocity23]

But then Tina is just puppet and not a tough and strong kick-ass woman.  The fact that Oliver tries to honor LLs last wish doesnt mean that the person in question is just gonna roll over and accept the role. They said they gonna revisit that storyline, but its still set in stone what comes of it. Honestly at this point i don't see any signs pointing toward BC. 

[Cleanqueen]

To me those last words that Laurel said to Oliver were juxtaposed with Oliver listening to Felicity and allowing the noobs join the team. We then heard Marc say those words would be revisted again and what they mean to Oliver, here we are revisiting them with Laurel back in the fold of things as Black Siren. The group is currently lacking any female fighters, the one female fighter ended up betraying them and Thea won't come back. So he might somehow feel responsible in training Tina or bringing her on board because they see her skill set and what it could mean to the team. Laurel said don't let me be the last canary and not dont let me be the last Black Canary. Laurel has never referred to herself as the Canary-at least not to my knowledge. So it could be a metaphor or a symbolism of what she represented. All the talk about BC to me isn't new. The only thing different is Stephen openly talking about it and that could be to get the fans prepared for LL not being back as the BC but as BS.

[Chaser]

I had thought that KC wrangled an appearance deal when they went to get the rights for statue. If 5x10 is her last appearance on the show (which I think it is), destroying the statue amuses me. 

[Starfish35]

13 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Honestly at this point i don't see any signs pointing toward BC. 

Then what do you think all these hints about a new Black Canary are leading up to?  Nothing? That doesn't make sense.

I mean right now it seems like:

• showrunners and cast drop lots of hints about new BC.
• New female recurring character is cast.
• People go - "These two things can't possibly have anything to do with each other!"

I mean, maybe she's not.  But I'm really not grasping why it's so out of the realm of possibility.

[wonderwall]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I had thought that KC wrangled an appearance deal when they went to get the rights for statue. If 5x10 is her last appearance on the show (which I think it is), destroying the statue amuses me. 

heeeeeeeeee I like the way you think

[Midnight Lullaby]

9 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

To me those last words that Laurel said to Oliver were juxtaposed with Oliver listening to Felicity and allowing the noobs join the team. We then heard Marc say those words would be revisted again and what they mean to Oliver, here we are revisiting them with Laurel back in the fold of things as Black Siren. The group is currently lacking any female fighters, the one female fighter ended up betraying them and Thea won't come back. So he might somehow feel responsible in training Tina or bringing her on board because they see her skill set and what it could mean to the team. Laurel said don't let me be the last canary and not dont let me be the last Black Canary. Laurel has never referred to herself as the Canary-at least not to my knowledge. So it could be a metaphor or a symbolism of what she represented. All the talk about BC to me isn't new. The only thing different is Stephen openly talking about it and that could be to get the fans prepared for LL not being back as the BC but as BS.

I think it's possible they are revisiting that promise and making Oliver say he realized the best way to honor her is to not give her title to someone else but for now LL's words are specific..Black Canary is a Canary so to honor her wish they would need to bring in another Canary (it doesn't have to be Black Canary but a Canary) or it just makes no sense. If they wanted to reference the boobs she would have said something like "don't make me be the last new person you let into the team". And I know technically Thea is the last person that joined the team but it makes as much sense as saying don't let me be the last Canary when Sara, the White Canary, is alive and well.

[Cleanqueen]

17 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I had thought that KC wrangled an appearance deal when they went to get the rights for statue. If 5x10 is her last appearance on the show (which I think it is), destroying the statue amuses me. 

she probably saw how it looks and side she wants it destroyed and not associated with her liking..lol

[way2interested]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason of why I am not 100% convinced mostly comes out of the idea of the importance of this overall. Like, I do pretty much think that Tina will become the new female mask who would be taking over to honor Oliver's promise to Laurel for a new BC, but I don't think that it's going to be such an event or honor or as big of a deal as the title of Black Canary might hint. On screen, the only real build-up for it was 501 and then presumably 510 (and maybe retroactively 508 if they bring in dream Laurel into this conversation), so while bts they might make a big deal about it because it's a new BC, I think on-screen it might end up being more of a new female recruit (probably eventually becoming BC) to honor the Laurel promise more than a special finding of Tina or finding someone worthy of taking the title. Then again, I'm still wondering how they find her, so that will probably change my whole outlook.

[Cleanqueen]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think it's possible they are revisiting that promise and making Oliver say he realized the best way to honor her is to not give her title to someone else but for now LL's words are specific..Black Canary is a Canary so to honor her wish they would need to bring in another Canary (it doesn't have to be Black Canary but a Canary) or it just makes no sense. If they wanted to reference the boobs she would have said something like "don't make me be the last new person you let into the team". And I know technically Thea is the last person that joined the team but it makes as much sense as saying don't let me be the last Canary when Sara, the White Canary, is alive and well.

I honestly don't know if they want to be that literal, to me arrow has never been that literal. It's just in that episode, felicity reminds oliver to remember the promise he made to Laurel while a discussion is going on about noobs so all in all everyone is just thinking about the noobs. And had we never heard about MG's comments, we would easily assume no new BC. His words aren't definitive either, so I guess at this point it's a wait and see matter.

[looptab]

21 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I had thought that KC wrangled an appearance deal when they went to get the rights for statue. If 5x10 is her last appearance on the show (which I think it is), destroying the statue amuses me. 

Serves them well for conjuring up that atrocity in the first place.

Edited December 12, 2016 by looptab

[Velocity23]

5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Then what do you think all these hints about a new Black Canary are leading up to?  Nothing? That doesn't make sense.

I mean right now it seems like:

• showrunners and cast drop lots of hints about new BC.
• New female recurring character is cast.
• People go - "These two things can't possibly have anything to do with each other!"

I mean, maybe she's not.  But I'm really not grasping why it's so out of the realm of possibility.

What better time to drop the BC hints right before hiatus and an episode which shows the return of LL. They were losing another female character. And it seems Flash and Arrow are both pushing for more female characters who fight. Flash introduced Jessie Quick, Killer Storm, Gypsy is coming to help Cisco. Probably  also the reason why we are seeing the return of China White. So i am not surprised they are adding another female character for Arrow. 

I am baffled that people honestly think that this new recurring character is gonna jump all over taking on the identity of someone else.  It made sense with LL and SL, but a complete stranger is just gonna go hard and become BC?

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Cleanqueen said:

I honestly don't know if they want to be that literal, to me arrow has never been that literal. It's just in that episode, felicity reminds oliver to remember the promise he made to Laurel while a discussion is going on about noobs so all in all everyone is just thinking about the noobs. And had we never heard about MG's comments, we would easily assume no new BC. His words aren't definitive either, so I guess at this point it's a wait and see matter.

Speaking for myself LL's speech made me think they planned to bring a new Canary on board, nothing else. It's simple logic, if my dog dies and my mom says "don't let this be the last dog you own" if I get a cat that dog will be the last dog I owned.

If they don't explain and spin that sentence (and I think they will to be honest) than it's BS for me. I'd ask Brian on twitter in case, LOL

[Starfish35]

They've been dropping the hints for months, not just now.  I don't buy that it's just to fool people into thinking Laurel is coming back in some form.  

Do I think she's going to jump straight into the costume? No.  But she'll join the team, and probably suit up by the end of the season.  

[Velocity23]

Or she could just stay a cop. That helps the team. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Or she could just stay a cop. That helps the team. 

That would probably be the most helpful to them right now. Do they really need someone else in the field with them, especially after they just learned that one of the team betrayed them? (You could argue yes and no on that one, I guess.) But considering that they know there are corrupt cops - or at least that Prometheus was able to get access to evidence in police lock-up - they could probably use someone they know they can trust on the force right now. 

And maybe the team can get a canary as a therapy pet. (They could all probably use a therapy pet, let's be honest).