Castiel: A Multi-Dimensional Wavelength Of Celestial Intent

[catrox14]

Happy Birthaversary, Castiel.

Castiel came into our lives 9 years ago today!

[bettername2come]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Happy Birthaversary, Castiel.

Castiel came into our lives 9 years ago today!

I'm torn between "Yay! Castiel!" and "We used to get a shorter hiatus."

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

I'm torn between "Yay! Castiel!" and "We used to get a shorter hiatus."

I don't understand LOL

[Mick Lady]

My fav; from "Caged Heat"

Castiel: [while watching porn] That's very complex

Dean Winchester: M-hm

Castiel: If the pizzaman truly loves this babysitter, why does he keep slapping her rear?

[pauses]

Castiel: Perhaps she's done something wrong.

Dean Winchester: You're watching porn? Why?

Castiel: It was there.

Dean Winchester: You don't watch porn in a room full of dudes. And... you don't talk about it. Just turn it off.

Castiel: [Looks between his legs]

Dean Winchester: Oh, now he's got a boner

 

Samuel Campbell: Is this what you boys do? Sit around and watch porno's with angels?

Castiel: We're not supposed to talk about it.

[Jeddah]

9 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I'm torn between "Yay! Castiel!" and "We used to get a shorter hiatus."

Seriously! The good old days, when we didn't have to wait until October!

I remember watching and thinking it was cool they were introducing angels, and that the wings projected on the wall were awesome. Little did I know how much I would grow to love that weird angel.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Jeddah said:

Seriously! The good old days, when we didn't have to wait until October!

I remember watching and thinking it was cool they were introducing angels, and that the wings projected on the wall were awesome. Little did I know how much I would grow to love that weird angel.

I was pissed when they introduced angels at all. I am not religious and was super leery of the direction they were going to do with the show but that is a conversation for another thread another time LOL.

I did appreciate that they made most all the angels besides Castiel and Anna into villainous dicks like the demons. I did like that Dean was like fuck all y'all except for Cas. Maybe he felt some loyalty to Cas for saving him from Hell. Or it was just you know...love at first stab :).

Edited September 19, 2017 by catrox14

[Diane]

11 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

My fav; from "Caged Heat"

Castiel: [while watching porn] That's very complex

Dean Winchester: M-hm

Castiel: If the pizzaman truly loves this babysitter, why does he keep slapping her rear?

[pauses]

Castiel: Perhaps she's done something wrong.

Dean Winchester: You're watching porn? Why?

Castiel: It was there.

Dean Winchester: You don't watch porn in a room full of dudes. And... you don't talk about it. Just turn it off.

Castiel: [Looks between his legs]

Dean Winchester: Oh, now he's got a boner

 

Samuel Campbell: Is this what you boys do? Sit around and watch porno's with angels?

Castiel: We're not supposed to talk about it.

I love this too, it's just so funny!

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

I like this tribute video.

[Wayward Son]

I'm in a Cas appreciation mood and want some Cas talk so I figured I'd post here and see how people would rank Cas' storylines in the seasons starring him i.e. from S4 till now. From best to worst I'd rank them

 

LOVED

Season 4: His introductory season is everything a Cas fan can ask for IMO. His first scene at the end of Lazarus Rising is epic and remains the best character introduction on the show to date. The only one that could possibly match it is Death's IMO. Misha does an exceptional job of first introducing the more ruthless aspect of Castiel when he threatens to throw Dean back into hell if he fails to follow orders, but sub sequentially allows us to begin viewing his softer side.. I love the conversation between Dean and Cas during It's the Great Pumpkin Sam Winchester, which first reveals his love of humanity. I love the talk between Cas and Anna where he begins to doubt the validity of the orders given, but he is not yet ready to fully commit and recoil from Anna during On the Head of a Pin and of course his ultimate rebellion in Lucifer Rising.

Season 5: A great follow up to his storyline in season 4. It was a dark season for Castiel as his faith in God and the cause he was fighting for began to waver. One of the things I loved most about the season is the way it showed us how feasible his transformation into The End Cas truly was. We saw him become human in all but name as the season progressed and of course there was the fantastic "I found a liquer store... And I drank it" scene, which highlighted how he was already turning to substance abuse to dull the pain he felt. The storyline however paid off in Swan Song when he 'died' for the cause only to be resurrected by Chuck with his faith restored and ready to be the new sheriff in town.

Season 9: While I'm not a fan of the season overall I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Castiel storyline of season 9! I feel his time as human was one of the most defining periods for Castiel on the show to date. I think his talk with Sam  during First Born illustrated the importance of him becoming human. While Castiel has always loved humanity he had always been a big picture thinker i.e. he'd put the fate of the whole ahead of the individual. It was this difference in viewpoint that often led to conflict with the brothers. However, being human, being surrounded by them and not just in a hunting capacity, allowed him to truly appreciate the importance of every individual and fighting for their lives. In addition to being a great season in terms of developing characterisation this was also Castiel at his most capable. He took charge of an angelic faction, which he led competently and ultimately he got to achieve his goal i.e. kill Metatron.

 

LIKE TO MEH

Season 8: I have mixed feelings on Season 8. On the one hand, I loved that we got to see him feel truly repentant for his actions and make the decision to stay in purgatory and fight against the monsters he'd unwittingly let into the world. In addition to this, I liked that they continued the escapist behaviour of season seven through his refusal to help out in heaven before he ultimately overcame these urges. So all in all I loved what they did up to Hunteri Heroici. However, I hated the Naomi storyline and would have preferred to see them continuing a redemptive journey for Cas, but at least he wasn't presented as an idiot here and this was something done entirely against his will :(. Unsurprisingly, I wasn't pleased with the season concluding with idiot Cas getting misled again, but at least Dean was also somewhat duped by Metatron and it led to Season 9!

Season 10: I'm in the process of rewatching at the moment and I did enjoy the continuation of Castiel valuing the lives of individuals over his own as shown by his refusal to continue acting as a grace vampire. I really can't remember much about Cas in this season mainly just that he helps Sam break the mark so I'm going to probably come back and edit this post later.

Season 6: This is a season where I originally hated Castiel's arc. However, seeing the way he was treated in later seasons made me more fond of this one. To start with the good; he was a bad ass this season! We got to see him take down other angels in episodes such as The Third Man! He assembled an army and held his own against the far stronger Raphael for over a year. The main weakness of this season was the fact that Castiel's characterisation was scarified for the sake of being able to throw a plot twist at the end. One episode simply was not enough to make up for the fact Cas' actions had been ambigious throughout the season. IMO this is shown through the fact that there are many fans who remain convinced he purposely brought back Sam soulless (in spite of the fact IMO The Man Who Would Be King made it clear he did not) and many fans don't seem to realise just how serious a threat Raphael initially posed and view his actions as a simple power hungry grab for power. IMO the handling of Cas in season six meant that a fan needed to be truly invested in the character and his motivations to understand the nuances of his thinking otherwise it was far too easy to just assume the worst. I also think the breaking of Sam's wall wasn't the best idea as it was such an extreme attack on Sam's person and turned many fans against him. 

 

DISLIKE TO OUTRIGHT HATE

Season 7: This is just an awful season for Castiel. They start off by making him a big bad that slaughters countless angels and humans before dumping him in a lake so they can introduce their shiny new monster. A massive F you to both Ben Edlund (the episodes writer) and Sera Gamble (the show runner) for treating him in such a contemptible manner. Then when he does return they decide the best way to handle this was escapist Castiel who goes around making dumb jokes and trying to escape his problems. Although he does get to play a role in the demise of Dick Roman. I still would have preferred Castiel had got to deal the killing blow, but he at least played a key part in his demise, so that's something right?

Season 11: This was the beginning of the Dabb administration and the end of Castiel as a decently portrayed character on this show. I hated the Lucifer storyline! They made him look like an idiot who undermined the heroic Sam who said no to letting him out of the cage. There was no pay off in the end as Casifier had absolutely no input in to the defeat of Amara. This was similar to season 7 where Cas was responsibile for releasing the bad guy into the world only this time he got absolutely no opportunity to make up for it :(

Season 12: This season started off promising! It had Castiel determined to make up for his mistake and throw Lucifer back into the cage and we got to see him affirm his love for the Winchester's. However, this was completely undermined when they practically cut him out of the second half of the season and only let him return to fight betray the brothers and then die in a pointless and humilating manner. 

[FlickChick]

@Wayward Son, I pretty much agree with your assessments of Castiel in each season. I am one of those viewers who completely understood why he did what he did in S6. Raphael's determination to start another apocalypse was a true and major threat to our little world. In fact, I never really saw another solution to taking out the Archangel. Certainly Sam or Dean couldn't have done it - their only ally Gabriel was dead by then. (or so we assume). But, as you know, we must have drama!

You dislike Dabb for his treatment of Castiel and I hate him for his treatment of Dean as well as Cas. I absolutely loathe the Lucifer storyline and frankly, am not liking the Jack one either. I'm hoping that we get OUR CAS back tonight! (I don't read spoilers) I've always liked the character as well as Misha's great acting within the role.

[takalotti]

So in the recent episode 13.15: A Most Holy Man, Dean mentions that Cas is in Syria searching for one of the ingredients needed for opening a rift. Since our understanding of the current state of the Angels is that they can’t teleport, some of us commented on how he got there. Which lead me to some of the following musings.

 

I assumed the boys just set him up with fake IDs and bought him a ticket with a stolen credit card. In which case we could get...

Overly-blunt!Cas pointing out the silliness/futility of some of the TSA rules like taking your shoes off at security.

In-awe!Cas during take off, marveling at mankind's ability to figure out flight, perhaps with some odd comments like "Imagine what you could do if you ever figured out how to access the ethereal plane." Haha, pun unintended!

Overly-blunt!Cas pointing out the silliness/futility of some of the "in case of emergency" instructions.

Grumpy!Cas grousing on the plane about any rule that seems silly from his perspective. 

 

Katy M wondered if angels could still make themselves invisible, in which case he could just walk on a plane undetected. Which lead me to thinking about...

Would the scenes play out that it wasn’t obvious at first that Cas was invisible? Maybe someone bumps him and looks back, and we assume the person is annoyed at the bump but really they’re confused at what they could have bumped into. Or he walks right past the person checking IDs and boarding passes without making a big show of it.

Maybe Cas would have trouble walking around security (too many people exiting the terminal, so he can’t go "upstream" without bumping into a lot of people, too much congestion on the TSA side of the security checkpoint) so he has to time his movements to pass through the metal detectors between people. Do angel blades set off metal detectors? Would security think the one machine was on the fritz and shut it down, making all the passengers in line groan at the slow down? Or would security think it was a delayed beep for the previous person and they’d have to get taken aside for a secondary search?

What if he picked a flight that was fully booked such that he didn’t have a seat? Just the oddness of a man just standing around, perhaps even right by the cockpit door, while everyone else is seated and the flight attendants bustle around him. 

And then breezing through customs, perhaps with a drug enforcement dog barking at him, confusing the handlers.

 

ETA: Oooh, and in either case, we could have Wistful!Cas since this is the first time he's "flown" in a while. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by takalotti

[FlickChick]

Quote

I'm also guessing he's now back to standard-seraphim status (minus the wings).  But that seemed pretty powerful, even back in season 4 (he could bring people back to life, for example!) 

Cas not having wings is something that has bothered me since the "fall of the angels". Cas didn't fall from Heaven like the other angels. Metatron took his grace, put it in a container, healed his neck and sent him AS A HUMAN to Earth. Later when he found the last of his own grace in the container and empowered himself, his wings were shown to be "burned" when the grace (presumably with wings intact along with every other power) NEVER "FELL" to Earth, but was simply hidden in the library by Metatron or his lackey. Cas should have his wings intact. But since the writers have no imagination and don't know how to write his powerful character into a story, Cas' wings magically "burned away" even though Cas never fell from Heaven as an angel. LOL canon at work, IMO.

[takalotti]

I am no expert on these details, so I welcome having my interpretation corrected.

When Metatron did his thing and all the angels were booted out of heaven, I figured it was like a "cutting them all off from the Host" sort of thing such that all angels and their grace, whether unified or not, whether in Heaven or on Earth, lost the powers provided by the Host (but not whatever powers are inherent in grace, like healing boo boos).

What I really don’t remember is how it could make sense that angels could get back to Heaven later yet they still don’t have the powers of the Host.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

I am no expert on these details, so I welcome having my interpretation corrected.

When Metatron did his thing and all the angels were booted out of heaven, I figured it was like a "cutting them all off from the Host" sort of thing such that all angels and their grace, whether unified or not, whether in Heaven or on Earth, lost the powers provided by the Host (but not whatever powers are inherent in grace, like healing boo boos).

What I really don’t remember is how it could make sense that angels could get back to Heaven later yet they still don’t have the powers of the Host.

My understanding is that spell forced the angels out of Heaven and sealed it off so they couldn't get back in. The angels still their grace, so they could heal, but their wings were burned off as they fell through the atmosphere, so they couldn't teleport anymore. If there were any angels on earth before the spell was completed, they shouldn't have lost their wings. That's why Lucifer can still teleport, he was in the cage when the fall happened. Yes, they were cut off from the power of Heaven until the backdoor was opened up, but their grace allowed them some power while they were stuck on Earth.

Cass was a special case because his grace was taken and he was sent back to Earth before the spell was completed. Technically, his wings should be in tact, but clearly they aren't. Perhaps not-so-marvy Marv did have Cass fall, burning off his wings, but made sure the fall didn't kill him without his grace to heal him? ::shrugs::

Edited April 8, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

My understanding is that spell forced the angels out of Heaven and sealed it off so they couldn't get back in. The angels still their grace, so they could heal, but their wings were burned off as they fell through the atmosphere, so they couldn't teleport anymore. If there were any angels on earth before the spell was completed, they shouldn't have lost their wings. That's why Lucifer can still teleport, he was in the cage when the fall happened. Yes, they were cut off from the power of Heaven until the backdoor was opened up, but their grace allowed them some power while they were stuck on Earth.

Cass was a special case because his grace was taken and he was sent back to Earth before the spell was completed. Technically, his wings should be in tact, but clearly they aren't. Perhaps not-so-marvy Marv did have Cass fall, burning off his wings, but made sure the fall didn't kill him without his grace to heal him? ::shrugs::

That was always my guess.

[FlickChick]

20 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Cass was a special case because his grace was taken and he was sent back to Earth before the spell was completed. Technically, his wings should be in tact, but clearly they aren't. Perhaps not-so-marvy Marv did have Cass fall, burning off his wings, but made sure the fall didn't kill him without his grace to heal him? ::shrugs::

See, this is the key that his wings should be intact. Cas' grace was in Metatron's container before he was sent to Earth, so I don't see how Cas (as an angel) could have "fallen" and burned his wings. But of course, this is only my opinion, and goes against what Show has shown us with the burned wings. Just doesn't make sense to me in any headcanon. I'm sure many will disagree with my interpretation.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

See, this is the key that his wings should be intact. Cas' grace was in Metatron's container before he was sent to Earth, so I don't see how Cas (as an angel) could have "fallen" and burned his wings. But of course, this is only my opinion, and goes against what Show has shown us with the burned wings. Just doesn't make sense to me in any headcanon. I'm sure many will disagree with my interpretation.

My headcanon is that Cas' wings didn't burn but his loss of grace physically diminished his wings and why they are still partially tattered. I realize it makes no sense but it makes more sense to me than his wings burning.  It's all I've got LOL

[ILoveReading]

From @S Cook Productions in the Social media thread:

Quote

If they’re going to focus at all on Claire, it should have been (IMO) just as heavily-weighted when it came to her relationship with Cas as it did the Wayward Pick-a-nouns. That relationship has been established, and Cas is a character that a lot of people care about. Supernatural,  sadly, seems to have completely forgotten that Claire is Jimmy Novak’s daughter. 

It doesn't bother me that they dont' have Cas and Claire associating that much because Cas is no long in Jimmy Novak's vessel.  Jimmy is dead and in Heaven.  Cas just happens to look like him.

Cas and Claire made their peace but its understandable that Claire wouldn't want someone around that wears her dead father's face and be reminded that it was Cas that took her mother and father from her. 

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From @S Cook Productions in the Social media thread:

It doesn't bother me that they dont' have Cas and Claire associating that much because Cas is no long in Jimmy Novak's vessel.  Jimmy is dead and in Heaven.  Cas just happens to look like him.

Cas and Claire made their peace but its understandable that Claire wouldn't want someone around that wears her dead father's face and be reminded that it was Cas that took her mother and father from her. 

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but that's not really how the show framed it as of their last meeting. It seemed to me that Claire actually cared about Castiel (asking Dean to keep an eye out for him), and certainly Cas cares about her. I'd be more inclined to believe their relationship than one between her and, say, Donna.

[FierceCritter]

"A Multi-Dimensional Wavelength Of Celestial Intent"

I have a nearly non-existent memory for most things I watch or read. So it was only on re-watch that I realized this was actually a line from the show.  And surprised that he said it himself.

I consider myself a pretty smart person. But I have wracked my brain and I can't quite figure out what in heck this even means. Anyone want to take a stab at putting it into elementary school language for me?
 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

I consider myself a pretty smart person. But I have wracked my brain and I can't quite figure out what in heck this even means. Anyone want to take a stab at putting it into elementary school language for me?

I think it means that angels are entities of energy with Heavenly intentions.  That's the best shot I have at it. 

[SueB]

On 10/12/2018 at 7:14 PM, FierceCritter said:

"A Multi-Dimensional Wavelength Of Celestial Intent"

I have a nearly non-existent memory for most things I watch or read. So it was only on re-watch that I realized this was actually a line from the show.  And surprised that he said it himself.

I consider myself a pretty smart person. But I have wracked my brain and I can't quite figure out what in heck this even means. Anyone want to take a stab at putting it into elementary school language for me?
 

Yes @catrox14 has the essence IMO. 

 

Technically, he should have said A Multi-Dimensional Wave Frequence of Celestial Intent" because Wave Frequency is more descriptive of strength of the energy ... but it's a little more cumbersome to say.  But energy travels in waves.  So Cas is energy.  That's his substance. And Cas has (much to my delight) implied that our mathmatical principles for describing energy are essentially on the right track.  Math get's almost philosophical when you get to the really highest levels (I'm not joking). As for multi-dimensional: Multi-Dimensional implies not just 3-D but time as a dimension as well as 'dimension' in the sense of parallel universes.   Then there's the "Celestial Intent".  That implies his origin (Heaven as @catrox14 said) but also God.  It's more like "God's intent" than Heaven's.  

Edited October 21, 2018 by SueB

[S Cook Productions]

Cas is still my fave character (always has been and always will be), but after watching this last ep, I have to say- he really does only have 2 facial expressions: angry pout and confusion, lol.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

Cas is still my fave character (always has been and always will be), but after watching this last ep, I have to say- he really does only have 2 facial expressions: angry pout and confusion, lol.

And two emotional states - ridiculously supportive, or hypocritically angry. I've mostly been indifferent to Castiel, leaning towards the positive side. The last few seasons though... ugh. The hypocrisy is just too much.

[juppschmitz]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And two emotional states - ridiculously supportive, or hypocritically angry. I've mostly been indifferent to Castiel, leaning towards the positive side. The last few seasons though... ugh. The hypocrisy is just too much.

He's an angel. Angels are dicks. (Even if they appear to be different initially, they can't hide their true self forever.)

[PAForrest]

14 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

He's an angel. Angels are dicks. (Even if they appear to be different initially, they can't hide their true self forever.)

Yeah, this season, and specifically this episode, kind of put the stake in the angel for me, which I'm not happy about because I've always leaned positive toward him even through the many, oh so many, bouts of bad character writing.

Yet I really hated Cas in this particular episode, though I haven't much liked him for a while. But here he made it clear that it didn't matter what Jack did, who he hurt, how bad he got - Cas was going to side with Jack against the Winchesters come hell or high water. Castiel was Dabb's mouthpiece and he made his choice clear - and I made mine, and it ain't Cas.

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

He's an angel. Angels are dicks. (Even if they appear to be different initially, they can't hide their true self forever.) 

They spent almost all of s4 through s10 showing and telling us how much Dean, and to a lesser extent, Sam, altered Cas' view of angels and humans. And that he almost always chose Dean and humanity. If Cas has gone back to Heaven over huumans the show has done a piss poor job making that. So for me, I can't put Cas in dick angel territory again. I can put him in just being an idiot  which sucks.

[S Cook Productions]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They spent almost all of s4 through s10 showing and telling us how much Dean, and to a lesser extent, Sam, altered Cas' view of angels and humans. And that he almost always chose Dean and humanity. If Cas has gone back to Heaven over huumans the show has done a piss poor job making that. So for me, I can't put Cas in dick angel territory again. I can put him in just being an idiot  which sucks.

I love Cas to death, but for someone who has lived millennia- he’s always been pretty naive. Almost every mistake he’s ever made (and he’s made a lot of big ones) were all because he thought he was doing the right thing because he was naive. It’s a character flaw, but it’s Cas. He swallows purgatory souls, he said yes to Lucifer, he knocked out Sam and Dean a couple of years ago because fetus!Jack told him too. Then Jack woke him up from the empty, and he has been team Jack ever since. He has a dangerous over-attachment to Jack, and it reminds me of when fetus!Jack had him mind whammied (sort of) way back in season 12. There may be more to that, or it just might be Cas being naive again. At any rate, he was in a back-to-back circle fighting with TFW in the last seconds of the finale- and that’s where I want him. In the end, I believe he will always choose Dean (and to a lesser extent- Sam) over everything else. 

[DeeDee79]

30 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I love Cas to death, but for someone who has lived millennia- he’s always been pretty naive. Almost every mistake he’s ever made (and he’s made a lot of big ones) were all because he thought he was doing the right thing because he was naive. It’s a character flaw, but it’s Cas. He swallows purgatory souls, he said yes to Lucifer, he knocked out Sam and Dean a couple of years ago because fetus!Jack told him too. Then Jack woke him up from the empty, and he has been team Jack ever since. He has a dangerous over-attachment to Jack, and it reminds me of when fetus!Jack had him mind whammied (sort of) way back in season 12. There may be more to that, or it just might be Cas being naive again. At any rate, he was in a back-to-back circle fighting with TFW in the last seconds of the finale- and that’s where I want him. In the end, I believe he will always choose Dean (and to a lesser extent- Sam) over everything else. 

For me I can understand the purgatory souls because he was trying to defeat Raphael and went overboard once he had a taste of all of the power that came along with it. The downside of course was the destruction of Sam's hellwall and the Leviathan's but he showed remorse and was given a chance to be redeemed when he took on Sam's hallucinations. When he said yes to Lucifer it was to keep him from killing Sam and Dean while they were trapped in the cage...I'm not sure why he didn't work to expel him after they were free but at least we know what his motive was. His actions since Jack's conception have bordered on fanatical when it comes to keeping him safe from everything and everyone that doesn't view him as a precious being. I hope that they give Cas the good sense that he had in the earlier years and allow him to see how dangerous Jack has gotten instead of angrily walking away whenever Dean points it out.

Edited April 27, 2019 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

. In the end, I believe he will always choose Dean (and to a lesser extent- Sam) over everything else.  

He didn't though in s12. And he didn't in this episode until Jack was killed by Chuck. To me that is fake angst. He also didn't choose Dean over Jack in the season finale. FWIW, Cas is my 2nd fave after Dean so it gives me no pleasure to say he's an idiot. And he didn't have a flaw back in earlier seasons. He made intentional choices to side with Dean and humanity which was kind of retconned to being flawed. To me that reduced the influence of Dean.

Cas being a pawn to Heaven annoys me because he has been smarter. But all of TFW has been dumbed down for Jack. Blech

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

But all of TFW has been dumbed down for Jack. Blech

Facts!

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But all of TFW has been dumbed down for Jack. Blech

So sad, but true, IMO too.

Worst character this show has ever given us to me-as bad as Lucifer and made that way in only a fragment of that character's appearances.

Blech is right.

I'm dreading s15 because of him.

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And he didn't have a flaw back in earlier seasons. He made intentional choices to side with Dean and humanity which was kind of retconned to being flawed. To me that reduced the influence of Dean.

This is what makes me so angry too. Cas is simply another tool in Dabb's storytelling box whose sole purpose is to prop up Jack and defend Jack and as a result has become a caricature of his former self. Cas was never written like this before Dabb. Yes, he has made many mistakes - some major - but his laser focus on Jack has changed his character completely, and IMO, not for the better. And you're right about lessening Dean's influence on the character, which of course is exactly what Dabb wants in order to prop up his pet. Jack has become the focus for Cas, just as he is for Dabb.

[trudysmom]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but here goes as it applies to all angels, including Cas.  Very early on when Cas first came on, he told someone his true form was approximately the size of the Chrysler building.  Later, Zachariah is pissing and moaning about not being the big cheese in heaven he used to be when he says something about having 6 faces, one of which was a lion.  In trying to distract myself from the oncoming train wreck we're certain to be witness to, I'm wondering why we are shown angels in heaven in human vessels.  Aside from the logistics of actually showing them as described, has there ever been a reason offered as to why they are in human vessels?  Just wondering. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, trudysmom said:

Aside from the logistics of actually showing them as described, has there ever been a reason offered as to why they are in human vessels?  Just wondering. 

IIRC, they said at one time that angels could not actually be on Earth for metaphysical reasons unless they were in a meatsuit.  I can't remember what episode but that sticks in my mind. 

[trudysmom]

Yeah I think I remember that. But why are they in human form in heaven? 

[AwesomO4000]

On 8/31/2019 at 7:33 PM, trudysmom said:

Yeah I think I remember that. But why are they in human form in heaven? 

Even though the real reason is probably it's easier and cheaper than special effects, I've come up with a potential reason so as to pretend their has to be an explanation. My fanwank is that if an angel at all anticipates going back to earth anytime soon, he/she hangs on to his/her human host, because if an angel leaves a host, he/she might not get that host to say "yes" again when they return. And it's apparently not always easy to find a compatible host. The angels falling fiasco led to the exploding of non-compatible people and other unpleasantness, for example.

So maybe it's like leaving your work clothes on if you know you're going back out again soon rather than getting into your comfy clothes for a bit and and then having to get redressed again to go out... and for angels who live millennia, even a couple of decades might equal "soon."

Edited September 2, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

On 9/2/2019 at 3:30 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Even though the real reason is probably it's easier and cheaper than special effects, I've come up with a potential reason so as to pretend their has to be an explanation. My fanwank is that if an angel at all anticipates going back to earth anytime soon, he/she hangs on to his/her human host, because if an angel leaves a host, he/she might not get that host to say "yes" again when they return. And it's apparently not always easy to find a compatible host. The angels falling fiasco led to the exploding of non-compatible people and other unpleasantness, for example.

So maybe it's like leaving your work clothes on if you know you're going back out again soon rather than getting into your comfy clothes for a bit and and then having to get redressed again to go out... and for angels who live millennia, even a couple of decades might equal "soon."

Good reasons all. And as I recall, when Sam and Dean were in Heaven, ol' Zach told them that the reason they saw him like that (in human vessel form), is because they were "limited". I miss Zach!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "The Trap" episode thread:

9 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Metatron was right about our resident angel - he's Asstiel. And that's sad to me because at one time I really liked the character, and I liked when he and Dean had a real relationship that was give and take on both sides. But that died a few years ago, and now it's reduced to one giving guy giving it his all, and the other guy taking and mostly not caring. I hate that.

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I feel the same. It really is a shame. Every change that Dabb has made to the show has been for the worse. He has brought nothing good to it.

As I said over on that thread - and have said before - I don't see this as that much of a change myself. For me, this has been a Castiel flaw from the beginning. Castiel saying "I failed you" earlier this season is in my opinion actually more than he has done in the past, and this is back to form.

I've generally not seen the Dean / Castiel relationship as more give and take on both sides. Castiel's behavior was more obvious with Sam early on, but nonetheless, it was there with Dean from the beginning.

Examples: Even though Castiel does tell Dean that the breaking of the seal isn't Dean's fault in "On the Head of a Pin" - a good thing - I wonder what Castiel's motives are there? Was he telling Dean for Dean? Or was he telling him that because he thought Dean was their only hope and he needed "The Righteous Man" to believe it?

I ask this because everything else surrounding it has only a vague sense of apology. Sam - rightly  - complains about what was done to Dean, and Castiel apologizes... that the devil's trap didn't work ("That trap... it shouldn't have broken. I'm sorry.") Not for what happened to Dean, or that the entire thing - as Sam also rightly complains - was pointless and damaging to Dean, and that they shouldn't have done it to begin with. Castiel apologizes that the trap didn't work.

And despite the fact that it was partially Castiel's fault that Dean was hurt, he refused to go against "orders" and heal Dean.

And he didn't apologize to Dean directly at all... even made his answer cutesy sound like it was Dean's fault:

Castiel: Are you all right?
Dean: No thanks to you.
Castiel: You need to be more careful.
Dean: You need to learn how to manage a damn devil's trap.
Castiel: That's not what I mean. Uriel is dead.
Dean: Was it the demons?
Castiel: It was disobedience. He was working against us.

He never tells Dean of the danger or why Dean "need(s) to be more careful" either. No admitting that he shouldn't have listened to Uriel. Or that he was wrong to have Dean torture Alistair at all. No admission of responsibility for any of that.

In "Good God, Y'All" Castiel conveniently blames his situation of being cut off from heaven entirely on Sam and Dean, because they failed.

"I killed two angels this week. My brothers. I'm hunted. I rebelled. And I did it, all of it, for you, and you failed. You and your brother destroyed the world, and I lost everything, for nothing. So keep your opinions to yourself."

Way to forget that you let Sam out of the panic room and then helped grab up Dean and prevent him from going to stop Sam until it was too late, Cas. Maybe, perhaps, that had something to do with Dean "failing?"

Then there was "I Believe the Children..." Plenty of blame for Sam's wrong decisions. No mention of his own. Same with "Point of No Return." Castiel blamed Dean for his own  decision to disobey heaven, and beat Dean for not living up to his [Castiel's] expectations. Then pouted and lost faith in Dean when Dean inevitably buckled a bit under all of the pressure. And this was actually more of the same, since Castiel had already pouted a whole bunch when his "disobedience" led to bad consequences for him. It was your decision, Cas. Sometimes you have to suck it up and accept the costs when you're doing the right thing.

Yes, Castiel often fought for Dean ... and Sam, too, but generally when a question of responsibility came up, Castiel more often than not went the deny, deflect, or ignore route.

This carried over into season 6, too, when in the end, Castiel once again put a spin on it in his mind that everything he did, he did for Dean. And sure Castiel was in a tough spot, but he made bad decisions in his quest to get out of that bad spot. Those decisions were his own, not Dean's. "I'm doing this for you, Dean. I'm doing this because of you." Nope, but Castiel kept telling himself that, not taking responsibility until much too late.

And let's not forget Castiel's justification for breaking Sam's wall. At least he finally took responsibility for that one later on and much bloodshed later. So Gamble did give Castiel some character growth, but then there was Carver, and pretty much well, back to Castiel, denial angel again as far as I can remember.

Because when Castiel took off in purgatory to "save" Dean, did he stop for 10 seconds to tell Dean that was what he was doing and ask if Dean agreed? Nope, and I'm sure in his mind he told himself, "I'm leaving Dean without any explanation for Dean's own good. It's all for Deeeeean." (As Dean is surrounded by monsters.) That was the route Carver chose to go with Castiel's disappearance, and so there we were.

So in my opinion, this has generally been a part of Castiel's personality since the beginning. Others' miles may vary.

Edited January 18, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[Airmid]

20 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Way to forget that you let Sam out of the panic room and then helped grab up Dean and prevent him from going to stop Sam until it was too late, Cas. Maybe, perhaps, that had something to do with Dean "failing?"

I have intense frustration over this and also with the points you brought up about him in S5 because of what they did to him, character wise.

In The Rapture, he was trying to defy heaven and tell the brothers only to be dragged back up to heaven because he showed empathy. When he returns, it's obvious that he has been forced back into the mold that heaven wants. [Remember, he actually does help Dean by giving him a carefully worded answer in Monster at the End of the Book to solve his problem which shows him swinging in at least in Dean's favor].

So, him doing what he did - letting Sam out and picking up Dean makes sense. Dean confronts him and Cas has faith in what Dean is saying enough to break Dean out of heaven's holding room [I got to imagine that would have guaranteed his death anyway]. He then takes Dean to the prophet before sending him to Sam yelling something along the lines "I'll hold him off. I'll hold them all off!" wanting to give Dean more time, but unfortunately, Ruby gets in the way otherwise there would have been success there. 

All of that's fine, honestly. It was a good character arc and showed the danger and willing sacrifice he was making.

I do try to fanwank the front half of S5 with his behavior as him being disgruntled at having been brought back and is now falling, knowing that he will become more and more vulnerable, lacks access to what he once had, and is now feeling humanity closing in on him till he's totally snuffed out forever.

This would be fine if it was ever addressed, but it's not. It goes on for the entire season and helps create a rather unsavory character issue for him. Him trying to cope and having regret and anger issues in the first few episodes - fine. Him still blaming everybody else and deciding to beat the stuffing out of Dean instead of using any other avenue to help him? Not good. 

I've been all over the board with him with whether or not I like him, personally, as he has had some really good moments. But it doesn't help that they make him so plot stupid at times one's got to wonder if him and learning curves are allergic to each other - IMO. 

And that's not even getting into the retcon they did in S8 where Naomi states he was always broken. Takes away a good portion of what he did before.

[goyour-own-way]

I miss the days when I really loved Cas. I'm angry with him, but mostly I'm just angry at the writers for ruining him.

[PAForrest]

14 minutes ago, goyour-own-way said:

I miss the days when I really loved Cas. I'm angry with him, but mostly I'm just angry at the writers for ruining him.

Agreed. Most if not all of my fandom friends are ones who loved Castiel for years, loved the one-time relationship between Dean and Cas - be it shipping or simple friendship. But the bloom on the character has also been wilting for a few years, and now it's become white hot hatred. And they're all sad about that, but it is what it is. They despise the character and this is how we're going to go out of the series feeling.

In fact, I'm now at the point where I think Sera Gamble was probably right, Castiel should have been written out in season six/seven. Her motivations were crap, and the way she tried to do it was worse. But hindsight being 20-20, I now feel like the character would have fared much better to have been eliminated after season five.

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Agreed. Most if not all of my fandom friends are ones who loved Castiel for years, loved the one-time relationship between Dean and Cas - be it shipping or simple friendship. But the bloom on the character has also been wilting for a few years, and now it's become white hot hatred. And they're all sad about that, but it is what it is. They despise the character and this is how we're going to go out of the series feeling.

In fact, I'm now at the point where I think Sera Gamble was probably right, Castiel should have been written out in season six/seven. Her motivations were crap, and the way she tried to do it was worse. But hindsight being 20-20, I now feel like the character would have fared much better to have been eliminated after season five.

ITA.

And yeah, I  can't think of him as anything more than Asstiel right now and

Spoiler

with NougatBaby coming back

I don't expect my feelings to change one bit as the show winds down and out.

[ukgirl71]

I’ve only seen a couple of episodes from season 15, but I’ve been re-watching season 4, and I think I would have preferred Castiel to have kept a level of emotional distance from the Winchester’s, and been a ‘friendly antagonist’ for them at most.

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

I’ve only seen a couple of episodes from season 15, but I’ve been re-watching season 4, and I think I would have preferred Castiel to have kept a level of emotional distance from the Winchester’s, and been a ‘friendly antagonist’ for them at most.

To me, Castiel's "journey" in seasons 4 and 5--from Heaven's tool to taking the first steps towards free will--was the most interesting part of his story.  I like the idea that Dean was capable of "corrupting" angels to his POV--making them see humans as important and not chess pieces, and that Cas began caring about the people in his charge.  His connection to Dean was therefore logical and fascinating--Dean as "mentor" more or less, and I could see Cas observing and changing his own programming the longer he watched.  At the time, I thought that was God's plan--to give the angels a chance to discover free will on their own: Dean teaching Cas and then Cas bringing it to heaven.  But of course that all got lost in the flap over queerbaiting and Destiel.  I think, more than anything, that's what ruined the character and especially the Dean/Cas dynamic--the writers were too afraid to piss off either side of the fandom and so chose to water down the relationship while still keeping them close enough to have what seemed more like marital spats than honest interactions.  

Maybe, as others have suggested, Cas should have gone out in a blaze of glory--maybe saving Dean or the world back in season 5--instead of fizzling out over the years.  

Edited January 19, 2020 by ahrtee
left out a word.

[DeeDee79]

Commenting on this post by @Whodunnit   brought over from Bitch vs Jerk:

Quote

Castiel is the reason I started watching the show and IMO Castiel was pretty badass in the last episode. I know my opinion is very very unpopular which is why I'm posting it here.

I never understand statements like this but I'm taking it literally instead of assuming that you meant that he was the reason that you kept watching. That being said, if you weren't already a watcher of the show how would you even know about Castiel? If someone who was already watching told you about an amazing angel on their favorite show why would you watch if you didn't care about any of the characters that he interacted with? 

[Whodunnit]

Well, I went from being a casual viewer who had seen one or two episodes in the TNT reruns to watching it every Thursday night as it aired. And the reason was catching an episode with the hot, badass, nerd angel. Once I started watching the show regularly I realized how cool it was and quickly grew to like the rest of the characters, especially Dean and Sam.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Whodunnit
Edit: I think the episodes that I had seen previously contained John Winchester.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Well, I went from being a casual viewer who had seen one or two episodes in the TNT reruns to watching it every Thursday night as it aired. And the reason was catching an episode with the hot, badass, nerd angel. Once I started watching the show regularly I realized how cool it was and quickly grew to like the rest of the characters, especially Dean and Sam.

I can understand that. I went from a casual viewer and got hooked because of Dean. Thanks for replying!

Edited January 23, 2020 by DeeDee79

[S Cook Productions]

16 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Well, I went from being a casual viewer who had seen one or two episodes in the TNT reruns to watching it every Thursday night as it aired. And the reason was catching an episode with the hot, badass, nerd angel. Once I started watching the show regularly I realized how cool it was and quickly grew to like the rest of the characters, especially Dean and Sam.

This is similar to my story, as well. I watched it as a casual viewer with my husband who was watching it on Netflix back in 2012. For the first 3 seasons, I popped in and out of the room when he was watching- sometimes sitting down to watch a full episode and thinking it was good. I really liked Mystery Spot and a few others, but it wasn’t until Castiel was introduced In season 4 that I really took notice and stopped being willing to pop in and out and miss episodes. From season 4 on, I became more of a “rabid” fan, surpassing even my husband. Wanting to watch it all the time until we caught up to live (at the time that was season 8), and then I went back and watched seasons 1-3 with a new appreciation. I’ve been a super fan ever since, but yes, I credit Cas with that. I love them all but he has a special place in my heart because he sucked me in.