Sam Winchester: aka Moose

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Darn you, @SueB... Now I'm I magining Rowena using a propped up in the corner Sam to dangle accessories from to get a better look at them. Or Crowley trying to talk Sam into that leather bustier.

I'm supposed to be doing work, and now I'm going to be totally distracted by amusing - and other things - scenarios. Hee. Hell, no reason I can't do the work tomorrow instead. ; )

If I had a skosh of artistic talent, I'd draw that picture.

[Diane]

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

If I had a skosh of artistic talent, I'd draw that picture.

You guys crack me up.

[FlickChick]

What I remember from The Benders: Dean tells Officer Kathleen that Sam went missing from the bar. She asks if he's a drinker and Dean says "Sam? No, two beers and he's singing karaoke".  So I inferred a happy drunk. In some other episode Dean specifically says that, but I don't know which one.

[Casseiopeia]

18 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

What I remember from The Benders: Dean tells Officer Kathleen that Sam went missing from the bar. She asks if he's a drinker and Dean says "Sam? No, two beers and he's singing karaoke".  So I inferred a happy drunk. In some other episode Dean specifically says that, but I don't know which one.

Sam Interupted when he was drugged in the mental institution.

[catrox14]

From Sam Interrupted

Quote

SAM sits on his bed in a drugged up stupor. DEAN opens the door and walks in.

DEAN: You okay?

DEAN approaches SAM'S bed.

SAM: No. No, I'm not okay. I--I am...awesome...

DEAN: They give you something?

SAM: Oh, yeah. They gave me...everything. It's spectacu-lacular. (laughs)

DEAN: You always were a happy drunk.

So at some point, Dean saw Sam as a happy drunk.

Edited March 8, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

Great video.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Great video.

Right?

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Dean thread:

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, I don't know, I kinda see it as they are each taking up their standard positions. Dean's hopes for the best, but plans for the worst while Sam puts all his energy into believing it will all come out okay. While I think it naive of Sam, I'm not sure it's wrong to want to believe. I don't know, I think they'll probably both end up right and wrong in the end, but it'll still be crappy for both of them. 

I guess I just find it hard to believe that Sam would sign up for a "kill all monsters" thing. That's not usually how he operates. And it isn't that Sam just hasn't thought about it or that he thinks it will be all right anyway, because he actually used an argument to that effect with the Alpha vampire *... and made it convincing enough that I believed him for a minute there (and Sam's not that great a liar, in my opinion).

I don't know. I don't like this monster holocaust idea the BMoL has, and I don't like that Sam is somehow now on board with that when, since the beginning of the show, Sam generally thought it was the right thing to do to give monsters a chance. Especially now where he even has friends - and at least one good friend - who are monsters. Am I supposed to think Sam would just be willing to sacrifice those friends for the "greater good?" Because if Sam is thinking that the BMoL would make exceptions to their plan of killing all the monsters just because he asked, I think that's a bit more than naive. And that's before factoring in that with the kind of "technology" the BMoL use - and the incompetence Sam saw - that something might go horribly wrong and one of those gadgets might harm innocent people (especially since some of the monsters they hunt derive from people.) How could Sam not be at least somewhat skeptical? That sounds more like willful ignorance than naive to me, and I had thought that Sam had learned and grown beyond that in the past 12 seasons.

And I wish I could be hopeful that Sam won't end up being completely wrong, but past experience doesn't exactly inspire me to think otherwise. I had hoped that Dabb would be different, but at present we seem to be going down the same well worn path. At some point, I'll have to question Sam's supposed intelligence, because more often than not, his decisions turn out horribly wrong.

* His argument that he liked things the way they were - killing monsters that killed people one on one.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know. I don't like this monster holocaust idea the BMoL has, and I don't like that Sam is somehow now on board with that when, since the beginning of the show, Sam generally thought it was the right thing to do to give monsters a chance. 

TBH, I don't think Sam really knows what it is he's signed up for, which is frustrating, I agree. I do think Sam is going to be very disillusioned once he does realize what he actually signed up for, but at least I feel like he might be in it for the right reason this time. It's not about revenge or trying to gain some control over his out of control life or because he wants to prove himself, but IMO this time it really is about helping people. I'm not saying Sam hasn't always wanted to help people, I just think it hasn't always been his primary reason for taking a leap. 

I do think Sam will be shown to be wrong in the sense he basically took another leap without out looking, but I'm not sure he's wrong in wanting to make the world safer. I guess I just look at it as, just because he's wrong, doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong.

Yeah, I know. I did try to make you feel better, though, @AwesomO4000. Points for effort? ;)

Edited March 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

I agree with you, Awesome0400, but the good news for Sam is that none of the Winchesters are looking too smart right now.  Dean doesn't want to work with the BMOL because he doesn't trust them, not because he thinks their methods are barbaric, so apparently none of them have an issue with the whole monster genocide plan.  

Based on the synopsis for next episode, that fact might actually dawn on them, but it's ridiculous, based on their history with monsters, that it would take them that long to figure it out.

[bearcatfan]

I wonder if Sam is thinking that if the monsters aren't doing anything to draw the attention of hunters, they would remain off the radar of the BMoL. If the BMoL are watching a nest of vampires or a pack of werewolves to see their interactions, it stands to reason that those good monsters wouldn't be interacting with those that are killing people. Therefore, the good monsters wouldn't be noticed.

I'm probably wrong, but it was a thought I had.

[MysteryGuest]

I think the BMOL, and Mary Winchester, have made it very clear that their goal is to systematically wipe out ALL monsters in the US.  I don't think they've been hiding that goal from anyone.  In fact, it's pretty much their main talking point.  And that was Mary's pitch to Sam...a world where he will have the chance to go back to school and have a "normal" life.  

I hate that we're just expected to go along with the writers on this journey when they very obviously didn't bother to pay attention to the last 11 years of the show.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think the BMOL, and Mary Winchester, have made it very clear that their goal is to systematically wipe out ALL monsters in the US.  I don't think they've been hiding that goal from anyone.  In fact, it's pretty much their main talking point.  And that was Mary's pitch to Sam...a world where he will have the chance to go back to school and have a "normal" life.  

I hate that we're just expected to go along with the writers on this journey when they very obviously didn't bother to pay attention to the last 11 years of the show.

I don't know.  As much as Sam has given lip service over time to how much he loves the hunting life, I don't think he really does.  I think he would be very happy to live in a world without monsters.  He used that as an excuse to himself in Criss Angel when he went back to Ruby after months of no blood and her "cut the head off the snake" speech.  He tried normal again in Season 8 after Dean died.  What he might not end up liking is their shady methods and their indiscriminatory killing.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't know.  As much as Sam has given lip service over time to how much he loves the hunting life, I don't think he really does.  I think he would be very happy to live in a world without monsters.  He used that as an excuse to himself in Criss Angel when he went back to Ruby after months of no blood and her "cut the head off the snake" speech.  He tried normal again in Season 8 after Dean died.  What he might not end up liking is their shady methods and their indiscriminatory killing.

But sadly, I never believed the reasoning in either of those cases either... especially the "Chris Angel" one where I was left scratching my head with "huh? What is Sam talking about?" when Sam jumped into the car with Ruby. And then both instances were contradicted later, and for me, more convincingly. ("Swap Meat" and "Book of the Damned.") I tend to agree with @rue721 that hunting is something Sam likes to do because it gives him a purpose and it has meaning for him - which has consistently been a theme with Sam throughout the show. When he tries to remind Dean in times when Dean is thinking of giving up the hunting gig or in general, Sam almost always says something along the lines of "and we make a difference." I think that's important to him, and it's not something he's going to want to give up. I think that Rue hit it on the head over in the "Bitch" / "Jerk" thread: that Sam would get restless in a "normal" life and end up messing it up in search of something with a larger "meaning" to it. It was one of the main reasons that he wanted to return to their real life in "The French Mistake" - Sam said that he agreed with Dean, that "We just don't mean the same thing here." (The other reason being the he and Dean weren't even brothers there.)

Or maybe I'm looking at this wrongly and it's actually what @DittyDotDot says - that Sam thinks that they can "make a difference" by getting rid of all the monsters. Now that I would believe much more than Sam wanting all the monsters gone so that he can live a "normal" life. But, man - and this is a huge BUT - Sam knows better than that. That kind of easy fix never, ever works. Like literally never in their case. And I have to handwave a whole lot of "naive" (more like stupid) to think Sam would fall for something like that again.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I know. I did try to make you feel better, though, @AwesomO4000. Points for effort? ;)

Always points for effort. ; )  At least the wanting to make the world a better place is a nice goal, however I still do wonder if the writers on this show remember that Sam is supposed to be - I'm not even going to say smart - but at least maybe not an idiot? I mean did he not somehow comprehend how badly everything went wrong with the vampires? (And how the vamp squashed their tech like a bug, and there was no back up?)

Also, just in general, how could Sam not hear something like "it's a mixture of technology and magic" and not immediately think "oh, really, really bad idea?" Because talk about messing with the natural order. To me in that verse science + magic just equals a big old NO.  I can just imagine some shapeshifter  tapping into a computer nerd and hacking into the monster-killing technology and bam! dead people instead... And we already have magical meddling  precedence. Sam and Dean don't know it yet, but Crowley already used magic to highjack one of their tech/magic hybrids, and rerouted Lucifer. What's to keep some powerful witches from doing something similar and really screwing things up? The difference between a one on one hunt going wrong and a "hunt" where large numbers are potentially being targeted at the same time is that if the second one goes wrong, the potential for accidental casualties is so much worse.

I have a baaaad feeling about this, and I can't believe either Sam or Dean can't foresee that potential bad.

[Airmid]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Or maybe I'm looking at this wrongly and it's actually what @DittyDotDot says - that Sam thinks that they can "make a difference" by getting rid of all the monsters. Now that I would believe much more than Sam wanting all the monsters gone so that he can live a "normal" life. But, man - and this is a huge BUT - Sam knows better than that. That kind of easy fix never, ever works. Like literally never in their case. And I have to handwave a whole lot of "naive" (more like stupid) to think Sam would fall for something like that again.

Sam always struck me as the more hopeful of the two, that maybe there would be a light at the end of the tunnel and that everything they've been doing would mean a more peaceful world. Maybe even one they could enjoy while still protecting innocents.

Like you, I'd appreciate if Sam wasn't hit over the head with plot needed stupidity and actually can look at these things objectively. It's one thing to have hope, it's another thing to just go in blindly trusting and I would think he would be better than that. Especially since he's been the one in the past to help Dean realize not everything is black and white and just because something was forced into being a monster doesn't mean it needs to automatically die. Even in the Rugaru episode where he is struggling with what's happening with himself he still doesn't want to kill someone before they turn. Even without the blood addiction I still think he would have argued that way and I don't hold out a lot of hope that the writers haven't forgotten about that.

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know.  As much as Sam has given lip service over time to how much he loves the hunting life, I don't think he really does.  I think he would be very happy to live in a world without monsters.  He used that as an excuse to himself in Criss Angel when he went back to Ruby after months of no blood and her "cut the head off the snake" speech.  He tried normal again in Season 8 after Dean died.  What he might not end up liking is their shady methods and their indiscriminatory killing.

I think Sam could be very happy in a world without monsters but I don't know if he could refrain from hunting with monsters still in the world. The whole Criss Angel episode didn't make a lot of sense to me as to his reasoning outside of justification to going back to his addiction which was what it was. The whole Amelia storyline, blerg. They never showed how he got from Dean disappearing to her and what a mistake. I can definitely see Sam being consumed by drink, grief and maybe something else happening that made him run. Due to his past history it would be very believable and something that the audience should have been able to empathize with. As it was presented, not really.

[rue721]

58 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Like you, I'd appreciate if Sam wasn't hit over the head with plot needed stupidity and actually can look at these things objectively. It's one thing to have hope, it's another thing to just go in blindly trusting and I would think he would be better than that.

Honestly, I can't even get frustrated with Sam because I'm so busy being utterly confused. His description of the BMOL bore no relation to what we saw of them in that fight against the Alpha Vamp IMO. It's like there is a big disconnect between how the writers/producers planned for that fight to go and how it actually played out on screen, and now that the BMOL had such a weak showing and had to be essentially rescued by the Winchesters within that (apparently pivotal) episode, the plot twist of Sam being interested in teaming up makes no sense. I feel like this is a writing fail rather than a character fail.

There are lots of ways that they could have explained Sam's about-face that I would have understood, including things like trying to look out for Mary or even thinking "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." But this thing of Sam supposedly just being earnestly impressed by these barbaric losers is so befuddling.

I'm having trouble seeing it as a reflection of Sam's character at all, which is kind of a problem.

[MysteryGuest]

18 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm having trouble seeing it as a reflection of Sam's character at all, which is kind of a problem.

Considering how absolutely not onboard he was when he first showed up, it boggles the mind that after everyone almost died...again, he all of a sudden thinks he just has to be a part of it.  Like you said, if it was because he recognizes that they are incompetent, that's one thing, but they've given no indication that he thinks that.

[Wayward Son]

 

L

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE LITTLE BROTHER! 

P.S: He is sooooo handsome OMG

Credit for this incredible gifset goes to tumblr user itsokaysammy

Edited May 2, 2017 by Wayward Son

[bettername2come]

That is a lot of pretty Winchester.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Bitch thread:

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that Sam isn't as...able to do that? IMO Sam is actually pretty terrible at understanding and expressing how he feels about anything. I think that it's not that Sam is TRYING not to open up to Mary, but I don't think that he knows how or even understands himself well enough to know what he would open up to her about. And IMO that's an obstacle to them having a close relationship. They could not have had the kind of heartfelt phone tag that Dean and Mary had in Twigs & Twine & Tasha Banes IMO.

On the one hand, I agree with you that, at times at least, it has seemed like Sam has trouble expressing himself even possibly because he doesn't really understand how he really feels about a situation well enough.  But I'm not so sure that's true about this relationship with Mary.  I think Sam knows he wants some kind of relationship with Mary, but I think mainly he isn't even sure of what could be possible.  And that's because of Mary, not because of Sam.  Sam reached out to Mary in the bunker with the gift of John's journal.  Imo, that was Sam saying "Here, this is who we are.  Let's talk once you've read it."  

Quote

Sam: If you ever wanna talk. I know what it's like to come back and not feel like you really fit.
Mary: I just have so much about you boys to catch up on. Mother stuff. You know, first tooth, first crush.
Sam: Yeah.
Mary: I just have a lot of blanks to fill in.
Sam: Right, uh... Dad's journal. His writing, his words. Helped me fill in some blanks, answer some questions I didn't know I had. And you know, it-- it-- it keeps him with us. Sort of.
Mary: Thank you.
Sam: Goodnight
Mary: Dean said you got out of hunting.
Sam: Yeah.
Mary: And yet here you are.
Sam: Well, this is my family. My family hunts, you know? It's is what we do. Mom, for me... Just, um... having you here... fills in the biggest blank.

The fact that Mary hasn't (as far as we've seen) reached out to Sam to talk about it is probably what has made Sam unsure about how to further reach out to Mary or what to talk to her about.  He reached out.  She didn't reciprocate.  That would leave anyone, imo, unsure of what their next move should be, or even if a next move would be welcomed.  

It's not Sam and his communication skills (or lack thereof, depending on the plot, lol) that is an obstacle to a close relationship with Mary.  I think it's Mary herself, and that's why we got the "She's (Mary) not much of a hugger." line from Alicia.

[rue721]

58 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It's not Sam and his communication skills (or lack thereof, depending on the plot, lol) that is an obstacle to a close relationship with Mary.  I think it's Mary herself, and that's why we got the "She's (Mary) not much of a hugger." line from Alicia.

She's able to reciprocate somewhat when Dean reaches out, and she does notice when Dean expresses his feelings, so I think that if Sam were able to reach out and able to express himself as much as Dean does, that maybe he and Mary could have a better relationship. Not a great relationship maybe, but as good as hers is with his brother.

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

I think Mary might also be carrying some emotional baggage when it comes to a relationship with Sam. In her eyes, she made a deal with a demon that cost Sam dearly. That's probably tough for her to handle.

When she first came back, she questioned how she was ever going to face Sam and I expect her deal impacts on the way she interacts with him.

I agree that Mary's guilt over the deal probably complicates matters -- and I think that Sam having had a bad relationship with John does, too.

I think that a big reason that Dean is so self-aware about how he's conducting the relationship and so willing to keep putting himself out there with Mary is that he had a fairly good relationship with John. He trusted John, so he believes that he can trust Mary (at least in theory), and he knew that John loved him, so he believes that Mary does/will love him, too (at least in theory). I don't think that Sam either trusted John in the same way or had the same kind of confidence in John's love for him, and I think that that makes him a lot more skittish toward Mary now.

I think that Mary thinks that her relationship with Dean is more fragile, because Dean is more willing to express himself when he's unhappy with her or with their relationship, etc. But in actuality, I think that her relationship with Sam is more fragile, because I don't think that Sam has as much of a foundation for a solid/close relationship with her as Dean does -- and IMO that's exactly why Sam is not as willing/able to express himself as assertively with her and why he's not as willing/able to take as much of a lead in the relationship with her. IMO Mary is thinking "no news is good news" when it comes to her relationship with each of them, but IMO the opposite is true.

Also, something interesting about twig!Tasha trying to bond with Dean over the ~typical life stage~ of growing up to become disillusioned toward your parents is that I don't really think that that ever happened for Sam. When John died, Dean DID seem to become very disillusioned with him. And then Dean seemed to feel very betrayed by and pretty disillusioned toward Mary, too, when she left the bunker. But I think that Sam never had the implicit trust in John and never admired John in the way that Dean did when he (Sam) was a kid/growing up, and I think that, once John died, Sam seemed to actually sanctify him MORE rather than become more disillusioned with him. (ETA:  I think that is because it's "safer" to love someone who's dead. They can't ever disappoint you or reject you the way a living person can (and the way that John actually did Sam)). And Sam has gotten upset in Mary's presence, but IIRC he has really even now never directed any negative feelings AT Mary. Maybe not even in conversation with Dean (don't remember specifically).

I don't think that Sam has any "illusions" about Mary now or anything, but I think his relationship with his parents is on a different trajectory than Dean's, and it's not the "assume that mommy/daddy is perfect until you grow up and become disillusioned and realize they're just people" trajectory that Tasha was talking about.

I think that Sam's trajectory is more like, "assume mommy/daddy are just people, not to be especially trusted or counted on, and then..." well, I don't really know what happens then ;) Maybe, "hope that things could be different, and then get those hopes dashed (or not)?" lol

Edited May 6, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

From the Mary thread...

43 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

But I think Ditty's point (sorry for speaking for you) is that we don't see Sam calling people for a chat -- not like we see Dean calling people he cares about.

Another instance of how they should show, not tell.

Sort of, not exactly. I don't think we see Sam doing it because it's not something Sam does regularly. I think he just doesn't engage with people like that anymore and hasn't since S1.

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

Jodi, Charlie, Eileen.  All three have had conversations indicating they are/were keeping in touch with Sam or that Sam feels comfortable just calling them up. 

I don't think he called Eileen to just chat about her day, though, nor do I think he calls her regularly. I think he called her for help in finding Dagon and took the opportunity to spend some time with her while they were working together. I think it's the same with Jodi and Charlie. That's been my whole point: IMO, he enjoys their company when he's in their company, but I don't think he calls them regularly when he's not in their company.

Basically, I'm not saying that Sam doesn't have relationships, I just don't think he does long-distance relationships. I think it's a symptom of how they moved around a lot when they were kids and his lifestyle puts people like that in danger that it's taught him to not get involved too much.

I think Dean, being a different person with a different personality, does call Jodi--and did Charlie, too--just to talk about their day or his day, just like he used to do with Bobby. I think when Dean had his dad and his brother he was fine with keeping his ties loose and unbinding, but as he started to lose the people right in front of him, he started reaching out more and pulling people into his circle more.

It seems to me Dean has tried to bring more people in while Sam has decided to keep people out.

Edited May 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sort of, not exactly. I don't think we see Sam doing it because it's not something Sam does regularly. I think he just doesn't engage with people like that anymore and hasn't since S1.

Whoops!  Sorry.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Dean, being a different person with a different personality, does call Jodi--and did Charlie, too--just to talk about their day or his day, just like he used to do with Bobby. 

You really have no proof of that any more than you have proof that Sam doesn't.  We never see either one of them calling people up just to chat about the weather.  Even with Bobby, a "by the way how are you now that we have gotten business out of the way" doesn't count as a call to chat someone up.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

You really have no proof of that any more than you have proof that Sam doesn't.  We never see either one of them calling people up just to chat about the weather.  Even with Bobby, a "by the way how are you now that we have gotten business out of the way" doesn't count as a call to chat someone up.

That would be why I said,"I think." I never stated there was unequivocal proof of my opinion, but it's my impression of the situation.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Quote

I think Sam was basically saying that he's gotten too comfortable letting other people make the calls so he doesn't have to. That he needed to stop putting his trust in others and start trusting himself more.

Which might make more sense, to me anyway, if Sam generally did just let other people make the call without questioning it so he (Sam) doesn't have to make the call, but does Sam actually do that normally? Sure, he'll ask Dean what the plan is, but in general, if Sam doesn't agree or thinks maybe they should try something else, does he generally just shrug and not voice an objection, because that's easier? I didn't think so, but maybe according to the narrative, I've been wrong about that? Also if the show actually let Sam make a right decision by trusting himself - which when was the last significant time that actually happened before this finale - I might get the message better, but the show in general lately usually seems to want to make Sam "wrong" about most things, so Sam having confidence in trusting himself seems more a fool's errand than something that actually makes sense. And in my opinion it didn't use to be that way on the show.

I didn't mean to suggest it was out of laziness or cowardice, but that personally don't believe Sam has trusted himself to make the right call since Ruby. Not really. He generally defers to Dean judgement. And, when he does make a call and commits to something, it very often goes wrong for him. I don't think that's necessarily because he has bad instincts, though, as much as he doesn't generally listen to his own instincts when making those decisions. He relies heavily on the "facts" and rigidly applies past experiences instead of looking at the problem in front of him and deciding what's "right."

So, when the Brits looked like they were doing something good--because all outward appearances at that time were they were doing something good--he signed up. What really got him into trouble wasn't that he believed in what he thought the Brits were doing, but was that he didn't believe enough in himself and his own instincts to ask any questions. He blindly accepted they were good because the cause was good and ignored any evidence to the contrary. 

And, I think with Sam it also has to do with the amount of good to be done. Sam has always been more of a big picture guy. Unlike Dean, he's not content helping and doing good one hunt at a time. Sam's generally looking for a bigger and more permanent solution. So, looking at the Brits, they had the tools and organization to do more good on a large scale. They could solve the monster problem instead of containing the problem as he and Dean had been doing. He just had to ignore how they were operating in order to solve the problem.

So, for me, I don't think Sam was talking literally about leadership--as in he needed to take charge of a bunch of people and make decisions for them--but more talking about how he needed to stop compromising his beliefs in the name of the greater good and stop following other people's causes in order to do good. He needed to take charge and lead only one person, himself.

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He relies heavily on the "facts" and rigidly applies past experiences instead of looking at the problem in front of him and deciding what's "right."

I agree about not really tailoring his decision to the specific case/circumstance at hand...But I think he doesn't rely so much on facts or experience as he does on hopes. He's so susceptible to believing something is true just because he really really *wants* it to be true.

Someone will dangle a hope in front of him -- Ruby did that, the BMOL did that, even Lucifer did that when he was trying to convince him to come back to the cage -- and that'll be enough for Sam to sign on. But it's like, what about the process? HOW exactly is this dream going to become a reality? Sam rarely asks questions about that. He just fixates on his goal, and has faith that the ends will justify the means.

I find that so frustrating if only because I am usually more interested in the means than the ends in any case. But YMMV. I guess Sam is more of an abstract thinker...and I don't get it, because maybe I'm not.

But anyway -- what's kind of nuts is that even after his realization that the BMOL were bad news and he made a mistake by signing up with them, he STILL did not dwell on the actual process of stopping them. No discussion was had on whether anything at the HQ was salvageable, whether they should flat out kill all the people at the HQ or take them prisoner or what, nothing. No questions about whether it was OK to slaughter them even though they're human (and may just be following orders, like Mary was), or whether blowing up their stuff would be counterproductive. Just, the goal now is to get rid of the BMOL --> Kk, we'll just wipe them and their HQ off the map. So I didn't really see any growth there, TBH.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But anyway -- what's kind of nuts is that even after his realization that the BMOL were bad news and he made a mistake by signing up with them, he STILL did not dwell on the actual process of stopping them. No discussion was had on whether anything at the HQ was salvageable, whether they should flat out kill all the people at the HQ or take them prisoner or what, nothing. No questions about whether it was OK to slaughter them even though they're human (and may just be following orders, like Mary was), or whether blowing up their stuff would be counterproductive. Just, the goal now is to get rid of the BMOL --> Kk, we'll just wipe them and their HQ off the map. So I didn't really see any growth there, TBH.

Oh, I didn't see it as growth for Sam, either. I mean, maybe the show thought it was, and did feel they needed to spend time showing that too us? I don't know. I did think it was growth that Sam could see--and admitted--where the flaw was. But, if you don't actually learn from that, it's not really growth.

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I agree about not really tailoring his decision to the specific case/circumstance at hand...But I think he doesn't rely so much on facts or experience as he does on hopes. He's so susceptible to believing something is true just because he really really *wants* it to be true.

That's why I put the word facts in quotes. I agree, it's not actually the facts, but what Sam wants the facts to be. That's why it usually turns bad for him. He's not judging the situation for what it actually is.

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I did think it was growth that Sam could see--and admitted--where the flaw was. But, if you don't actually learn from that, it's not really growth.

Yeah, exactly -- he realized that he'd screwed up, but then he turned around and did pretty much the same thing again immediately! He decided on another worthy goal (getting rid of the BMOL) and then blindly shot off after it...only he also dragged along a bunch more people on his quest this time, because he's a "leader."

I guess I would never be cut out to be a hunter, because I would be like....hmmm, let's sit here and run through the options real quick. I would not be flying off into the HQ on the word of a guy who'd just gone on at length about his poor judgement. LOL.

And nobody within the show seemed to be conscious of Sam's lack of lesson-learning, which is what made me actually roll my eyes. I mean, I am 100% fine with Sam learning the "wrong" lesson from his BMOL mistake or not really learning his lesson at all or whatever. In fact, that's a potentially interesting place for the story to (theoretically) go IMO. But to have nobody be conscious of it within the show makes me think that that's a result of poor execution on the part of the production, and a "meta" issue, not actually part of Sam's story or characterization. Which is frustrating. I actually think the writing and production in general has been much stronger this year, and I have really enjoyed it. I even enjoyed these finale episodes a lot. But IMO Sam's arc has been a weak link.

TBH, I think his arc has been a pretty big mess all season. I feel like the show was just jerking Sam from one plot point to another, without ever earning any of that "progress." IMO it seems like they wanted to end the season on him being a "general" and vanquishing the BMOL, because that's full circle from him being imprisoned and tortured by them -- so that's how the show ended the season. Except it was meaningless, IMO, because his journey to that final plot point didn't make sense. Like I said in the Bitterness thread, I felt like the whole arc was very forced.

I also feel like the show has a tendency sometimes to give Sam very elitist dialogue, and I don't get it. Is Sam supposed to be elitist and actually think things like, they're sure to triumph over the MoC because they're Winchesters (and apparently, the Winchesters can't lose) or that he needs to fulfill his duty/destiny to be a leader (or etc etc etc)? Or is that just clumsy writing? I actually just can't tell.

Also, I felt like Sam was weirdly out of character in these two finale episodes. It seemed like he was going to burst into tears at any and all moments, and...I dunno, it was just odd. I got an odd vibe from him. I don't know if it was Jared or the direction or what. It wasn't all just the writing, though.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, exactly -- he realized that he'd screwed up, but then he turned around and did pretty much the same thing again immediately! He decided on another worthy goal (getting rid of the BMOL) and then blindly shot off after it...only he also dragged along a bunch more people on his quest this time, because he's a "leader."

Maybe it's a fanwank, but I'm not convinced there was absolutely No discussion/preparation for the raid on the BMoL headquarters.  I think there would have had to have been - the other hunters would have at least had to know where they were going and what they were going up against (and I don't see Jody not asking those questions anyway.)  

ETA: I think it just happened off screen.

Edited May 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
Off-screensville is real!

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree about not really tailoring his decision to the specific case/circumstance at hand...But I think he doesn't rely so much on facts or experience as he does on hopes. He's so susceptible to believing something is true just because he really really *wants* it to be true.

I got sidetracked above, sorry!

Anyway, what I mean by Sam rigidly apply previous experiences is I think he tends to look at what happened in the past, decides the situations are the same, so do the opposite of what failed before instead of reading each situation for what they are and making a judgement call. The problem is, the situations are not really the same thing so the same actions will not produce the same results.

For instance, when he didn't go looking for Dean after he vanished at the end of S7. Sam looked at it and saw in the past things didn't go well for him when he tried to save Dean from Hell, he ended up embroiled with Ruby and breaking the world. So the lesson he learned was, don't break the world to save your brother. Instead of looking at the situation and realizing he maybe didn't need to break the world to save Dean. 

Same with his narrow-minded approach to removing the Mark. Again, he looked at when he failed to save Dean the last time and decided the problem was he didn't do anything trying not to break the world, so this time he was going to do everything to break the world as long as he saved Dean.

So, it's two-fold with why Sam's decisions usually turn out bad. One, he's a dreamer/believer/visionary/whatever so he doesn't always see the situation for what it is but sees it for what it could be. And two, he doesn't trust his own instincts anymore so he goes off past experiences that don't fit the current situation at hand.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Also, I felt like Sam was weirdly out of character in these two finale episodes. It seemed like he was going to burst into tears at any and all moments, and...I dunno, it was just odd. I got an odd vibe from him. I don't know if it was Jared or the direction or what. It wasn't all just the writing, though.

I don't know if it was out-of-character exactly, but I just felt like his bright and shiny illusions had all come crashing down on him and now he was trying to deal with the reality in front of him.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

TBH, I think his arc has been a pretty big mess all season. I feel like the show was just jerking Sam from one plot point to another, without ever earning any of that "progress."

TBH, I think this is pretty typical of the show. I mean, that's how I felt about the MoC storyline too. I felt like each writer had something different to say on the topic and sometimes they contradicted each other rather than building on each other. I think that's been a real problem with the show since S8, myself.

In the end, I'd say the BMoL arc ended up being a discussion about mom-n-pops versus corporate. They just shoved Winchesters in and tried to bend the characters around the discussion instead of the discussion naturally coming out of the characters...if that makes any sense?

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I also feel like the show has a tendency sometimes to give Sam very elitist dialogue, and I don't get it. Is Sam supposed to be elitist and actually think things like, they're sure to triumph over the MoC because they're Winchesters (and apparently, the Winchesters can't lose) or that he needs to fulfill his duty/destiny to be a leader (or etc etc etc)? Or is that just clumsy writing? I actually just can't tell.

I don't see Sam as elitist. Both Sam & Dean talk about being THE Winchesters who can do anything, but I think that's more trying to psych themselves up, not considering themselves elite. In fact, the BMoL were portrayed as elitists (bad) vs. the Winchesters, kinda blue collar (good).

I think the leadership dialogue was clumsy and OOC for Sam. There's no way he wakes up in the morning thinking about how he can be a leader. IMO

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, auntvi said:

I think the leadership dialogue was clumsy and OOC for Sam. There's no way he wakes up in the morning thinking about how he can be a leader. IMO

It doesn't sound like either Sam or Dean. I mean these guys don't go around speechifying.  It should have been massaged more to be accurate for Sam. This isn't a bitch v jerk thing. It does not sound like Sam's words. It doesn't have Sam's voice IMO.

Quote

Sam: Um, so my -- my brother and I, we -- we, um [ Sighs ] No, you know what? I called you here because people um, our people, are being slaughtered. And we're next.

The British Men of Letters. They came here because they thought they could do our job better than we could. And they hooked us with their flashy gear and their tech.

Most of you had the good sense to turn 'em down. I didn't.

They said they wanted the same thing we wanted, you know? A world free of monsters.

That's not what they really wanted. They want control.

They want to live in a world where they can sit in some office and decide who gets to live and who gets to die.

And they've killed people. They've killed innocent people just because they got in the way.

They think the ends justify the means. But we know better.

We know hunting isn't just about killing. It's about doing what's right, even when it's hard.

So we go by our gut, right?

We play by our own rules, and that scares them.

That's why they want us dead, 'cause we're the one thing they can't control.

Walt: So what do you want from us?

I want you to follow me. Take the fight to them. To hit them before they hit us. We go in fast and hard and we fight and we beat them down until they give up or until they're dead.

Look, they're well-trained and well-armed. Some of us might not make it back.

But we will win. We will take down the bad guys because that's what we do.

 

Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s12e22

[DittyDotDot]

From the Bitch/Jerk thread...

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And for me, I think season 4 is where this was the most detrimental maybe to Sam's arc. For example, the "power" addiction that was supposedly one of Sam's motivations in season 4 didn't really work for me. I can more buy the ego, but in my opinion, that didn't go as well with the guilt. For me, I think it would've made much more sense if one of Sam's motivating factors was that he was angry with Dean and couldn't really forgive Dean for making the deal and leaving Sam all alone to deal with the consequences. The pieces of it were all there in my opinion. It was touched on in season 3, but then Sam immersed himself and put that energy into trying to save Dean and that I think could believably delay Sam's potential anger about that. But once Dean was dead and Sam was alone and had failed in trying to save Dean, I could see his guilt conflating with "how could Dean have done this to me?" And for me, anger would make so much more sense in terms of the "Dean is weak" thing, and Sam feeling that he had to do it instead, and maybe even being angry about that also, because Sam wasn't ready and maybe the blood addiction was part of that trying to feel ready. But then of course Sam would also feel guilty about feeling angry, because of all Dean went through. And for me that would've made a great emotional arc for Sam... much more satisfying than Sam wanted power or was just being arrogant.

Personally, I don't think Sam ever wanted power, I think he just wanted to feel he had some control over his own life. And, personally, I think the arrogance was a side-effect of the demon blood addiction. 

However, I think Sam's emotional arc was that he was angry at: John for being a crappy parent; Dean for selling his soul and leaving him alone to deal with this mess; and himself for not being able save Dean; and the whole damn universe for constantly pushing him around. And, it was about his guilt and anger at himself for being angry, especially with Dean. He just buried under this mission to save the world so he didn't have to face it. 

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I think Sam's emotional arc was that he was angry at: John for being a crappy parent; Dean for selling his soul and leaving him alone to deal with this mess; and himself for not being able save Dean; and the whole damn universe for constantly pushing him around. And, it was about his guilt and anger at himself for being angry, especially with Dean. He just buried under this mission to save the world so he didn't have to face it. 

I agree with you, except that I think season 4 buried that like Sam did. Sam's anger wasn't directly addressed that I remember. It was all couched as Sam being arrogant and Sam supposedly wanting power. Sam being angry wasn't mentioned that I recall in season 4.

And I am all for subtle and lack of anvils - though this show does like its anvils - but when there are clues to different things being motivation instead, I think it dilutes what should be the emotional arc, and I think that's what happened in this case. For whatever reason, the writers didn't seem to want to address Sam's anger directly even though to me that would've made a lot of sense. They did address Sam's guilt, but seemed to end up diminishing it early on as a continuing factor in Sam's motivation, instead having Sam declare Dean "weak" while he (Sam) was the one who could do it instead. That moved things away from guilt, and didn't address Sam's anger, in my opinion, anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree with you, except that I think season 4 buried that like Sam did. Sam's anger wasn't directly addressed that I remember. It was all couched as Sam being arrogant and Sam supposedly wanting power. Sam being angry wasn't mentioned that I recall in season 4.

And I am all for subtle and lack of anvils - though this show does like its anvils - but when there are clues to different things being motivation instead, I think it dilutes what should be the emotional arc, and I think that's what happened in this case. For whatever reason, the writers didn't seem to want to address Sam's anger directly even though to me that would've made a lot of sense. They did address Sam's guilt, but seemed to end up diminishing it early on as a continuing factor in Sam's motivation, instead having Sam declare Dean "weak" while he (Sam) was the one who could do it instead. That moved things away from guilt, and didn't address Sam's anger, in my opinion, anyway.

That's because S4 they got caught up in keeping everything Sam a mystery. They couldn't address it, not really, until S5. I think it's there, though, I just didn't necessarily put it all together until the season was over.

[shang yiet]

Quote

Sam had the chance to air his grievances with John and he accepted Mary's return. Dean had a chance to air his grievance with Mary. To me the circle is incomplete if Dean never gets that with John.

I think the circle is incomplete with Sam too. Sam was at loggerheads with John in My Time of Dying and he never got a chance to smooth things out. He never got a farewell speech from John. Sam was thrilled with Mary's return but he never had a chance to air his grievance with her, unlike Dean.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

. Sam was thrilled with Mary's return but he never had a chance to air his grievance with her, unlike Dean.

FTR, I never thought Dean hated Mary. I thought he had made his peace with her back when he met her in her youth. That he came to terms with her choices years ago, but unfortunately, the canon as of 12.22 says otherwise.

The question I have and I don't mean this in a Bitch v Jerk way, is did Sam ever really have a grievance with Mary? I'm not being snarky either.  AFAIR, ghost!Mary apologized to Sam. Sam told her that her being back filled in the biggest blank of all. I thought he had been TOO Zen about the whole thing but even when he had the chance to speak up about any issues he had with her he didn't. I thought maybe there was some anger because of his behavior towards Magda's mother and when he agreed with Dean that Mary should go in the Raid, but then he ended up joining the BMOL with her. So at that point, I figured he must have forgiven her all along the way. And Sam was even telling Dean to give her a break early on. 

I thought there was something underneath with Sam  but nothing was ever spoken so I just decided well, Sam, must really be okay with it all.

Is there something you saw that makes you think Sam's behavior and attitude with Mary  that he still had a grievance with her?

Edited June 9, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The question I have and I don't mean this in a Bitch v Jerk way, is did Sam ever really have a grievance with Mary? I'm not being snarky either.  AFAIR, ghost!Mary apologized to Sam. Sam told her that her being back filled in the biggest blank of all. I thought he had been TOO Zen about the whole thing but even when he had the chance to speak up about any issues he had with her he didn't. I thought maybe there was some anger because of his behavior towards Magda's mother and when he agreed with Dean that Mary should go in the Raid, but then he ended up joining the BMOL with her. So at that point, I figured he must have forgiven her all along the way.

The whole series starts with what Mary did to Sam. He was called a monster for what she did to him. He spent 5 seasons trying to redeem himself from the evil he felt inside, and he's permanently damaged. Call it his original sin a gift from Mary.

We don't even know for sure that Sam knows knows exactly what happened between Mary & Azazel. Dean saw it all. Sam has never actually talked to his mother about any of this. What Mary knows, she knows from Dean; she's only talked to Dean and Castiel about it. When she apologized to Sam (as a ghost, not as his mother) he had no idea what she was apologizing for. He's spent the entire series compartmentalizing his fear, anger and self-loathing. That anger against Magda's mother could just be the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, I think Sam has a grievance against Mary that needs to be dealt with!  Because Sam's all about forgiving and afraid of rejection, he's been very conciliatory with Mary. But he's NEVER had a chance to get rid of the anger, fear and self-loathing because he's never been able to talk to her. And at this point in the show, it doesn't look like they're EVER going to give Sam his catharsis.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, auntvi said:

The whole series starts with what Mary did to Sam. He was called a monster for what she did to him. He spent 5 seasons trying to redeem himself from the evil he felt inside, and he's permanently damaged. Call it his original sin a gift from Mary.

We don't even know for sure that Sam knows knows exactly what happened between Mary & Azazel. Dean saw it all. Sam has never actually talked to his mother about any of this. What Mary knows, she knows from Dean; she's only talked to Dean and Castiel about it. When she apologized to Sam (as a ghost, not as his mother) he had no idea what she was apologizing for. He's spent the entire series compartmentalizing his fear, anger and self-loathing. That anger against Magda's mother could just be the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, I think Sam has a grievance against Mary that needs to be dealt with!  Because Sam's all about forgiving and afraid of rejection, he's been very conciliatory with Mary. But he's NEVER had a chance to get rid of the anger, fear and self-loathing because he's never been able to talk to her. And at this point in the show, it doesn't look like they're EVER going to give Sam his catharsis.

I think Sam does know exactly what happened.  I think Dean told him everything, barring the demon blood, in the not-shown scene in Metamorphosis.  Sam said, our grandparents, our parents, all dead, just so that yellow eyes could drip blood in my mouth, or something to that extent.  He wouldn't have been able to put that all together just from being told that the Campbells were hunters. 

However, Mary didn't do anything directly to Sam or dean. She made a deal with a demon to bring John back.  Sam and Dean have both made demon deals of one sort or another, taken on some demonic thing (blood, mark of Cain) to not good ends, etc., so I don't really see how either of them really has a right to be angry with Mary for doing the exact same thing that they do.  I don't have a problem with Dean telling Mary, you did X and because of that all these Ys happened, and it makes part of me hate you.  But, at the same time, it's not really all that logical.  So, I don't think that Sam needs to do the same thing.  And, pre-series, apparently Sam did take tons of chances to get rid of his anger on his father.  So, there's that.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I don' think Sam has any anger towards Mary. She didn't do anything to him exactly. She made a vague deal that ended up tainting him, but it was an unknown bi-product of the deal, IMO. I think Sam thinks of her as a victim in the whole thing and John was the parent he had issues with. It was John who put them on the road; and John who neglected them; and it was John who tried to force his own vengeance on Sam. And, I think it was John who made Sam feel he was "wrong" first and foremost.

I think it's the opposite for Dean. I personally don't think he feels like John did anything to him as much as was a victim like Dean was. It was different with Mary though. I think Dean has subconsciously been carrying around this anger at Mary probably since he found out about her deal. I think that's where his first, "I hate you," revelation came from in Who We Are.  IMO, it wasn't John who taught Dean to protect Sam, it was Mary when she told 4-year-old Dean she wasn't going to let anything bad happen to him. I think it's something that seeped into Dean's subconscious and has been trying to live up to that since the day Mary died and baby Sammy was put in his arms. But, it was a lie she taught him because she'd already made the deal and knew something bad was coming--even if she didn't know what that was exactly. That's why he hated her, because she taught him a lie he built his life around. But he also loved her because everything he's become because of that lie is something he's very proud of.

So, IMO, the circle is complete for both Sam and Dean. Sam got to say his peace to John back in The Song Remains the Same and Dean got to say his peace to Mary now. If they ever do manage to bring John back in the here and now, I think the focus should be on them establishing relationships with them as adults rather than airing of old grievances they put behind them years ago. Same with Mary, at this point.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I thought maybe there was some anger because of his behavior towards Magda's mother

I think his anger at Magda's mother was more pointed at John due to how John's paranoia and fear drove him to devote his life to something while also neglecting his family and children's actual needs.

Edited June 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Dean has subconsciously been carrying around this anger at Mary probably since he found out about her deal. I think that's where his first, "I hate you," revelation came from in Who We Are.  IMO, it wasn't John who taught Dean to protect Sam, it was Mary when she told 4-year-old Dean she wasn't going to let anything bad happen to him. I think it's something that seeped into Dean's subconscious and has been trying to live up to that since the day Mary died and baby Sammy was put in his arms. But, it was a lie she taught him because she'd already made the deal and knew something bad was coming--even if she didn't know what that was exactly. That's why he hated her, because she taught him a lie he built his life around. But he also loved her because everything he's become because of that lie is something he's very proud of.

Yes, I agree with this. Dean has even said things like, he tried to be brave because he knew that that's how Mary would have wanted him to be.

I think that it would be normal and understandable for Sam to have some anger toward Mary if just because she wasn't there for him. He did miss out on growing up with a mother, and that's sad. Something to regret. It's also not really logical to be angry with Mary for it, but emotion isn't logical.

And Sam is generally the type to let things build and then randomly explode emotionally all over the place, so I think it's not unlikely that, if she stays on the show, he will have it out with her at some point (about what in particular, though, who knows).

But I think in general, it's all water under the bridge with Sam, and he mostly just wants to have a relationship with her, and experience having a mother/son relationship NOW. I think he's living in the present when it comes to Mary.

And, like with John, I'm interested in their (potential) relationship as adults...with the caveat that I find Mary less interesting and engaging as a character than I do/did John, so I'm not AS interested in her relationship with her sons (anymore). Maybe the show will make her more interesting and engaging in the future, though. Hope springs eternal :P

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I agree with @DittyDotDot re: Dean's feelings about Mary.  I think the anger was subconscious and triggered by watching that scene with her and Mini!Dean which jolted his memory.  (And I'm not explaining nearly as well as TripleD!)  What's so great about that scene and reveal of how Dean felt/feels about Mary is that it's complicated and layered - just like real life.  People can both love their parents and still carry around a lot of anger and resentment toward them for something too.  

So I think it's possible that Sam could also be carrying around some repressed or suppressed anger and resentment.  Sometimes I think he was a little too Zen about Mary's return this past year - and as others have speculated, I think that might be because he was too afraid of scaring her away.  But if she comes back (if they get her out of the AU) and she's around at all - making up for ditching them in S12 - then we should probably get to see some cracks in Sam's Zen.  At the very least, we should see that Sam also has a complicated and layered relationship with/feelings toward Mary.

Fwiw, I think Sam knows exactly what happened between Mary and Azazel and in his nursery that night.  Personally, I think Ruby1.0 told him whenever she was first trying to recruit him.  I can't remember the episode, even though I watched it recently (S2 maybe?) but she said something like 'you probably have a lot of questions.  Give me a call when you want answers.'  I think he asked off camera, and she answered.

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And Sam is generally the type to let things build and then randomly explode emotionally all over the place, so I think it's not unlikely that, if she stays on the show, he will have it out with her at some point (about what in particular, though, who knows).

ETA: what @rue721 said here. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[auntvi]

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

, IMO. I think Sam thinks of her as a victim in the whole thing and John was the parent he had issues with. It was John who put them on the road; and John who neglected them;

I can buy that he sees Mary as another victim of Azazel.  But JMO because it may or may not have have been discussed off screen, Sam doesn't know specifically that she made the deal with Azazel to bring John back. I think that there's too much possible angst & drama in the moment the son realizes that his mother is the (unwitting) cause of this thing that doomed him from the beginning that it wouldn't happen off screen. And I want to see it, dammit!!!!

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, auntvi said:

But JMO because it may or may not have have been discussed off screen, Sam doesn't know specifically that she made the deal with Azazel to bring John back. I think that there's too much possible angst & drama in the moment the son realizes that his mother is the (unwitting) cause of this thing that doomed him from the beginning that it wouldn't happen off screen. And I want to see it, dammit!!!!

I understand the desire to see it on screen, but I think that ship sailed years back. IMO, the time to show it on screen was back in S4 or S5 and having this big revelation now would be weird to me.

They could do a flashback, but they'd have to get Jared to bulk back up and grow back the sideburns. ;) 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

The whole series starts with what Mary did to Sam. He was called a monster for what she did to him. He spent 5 seasons trying to redeem himself from the evil he felt inside, and he's permanently damaged. Call it his original sin a gift from Mary.

We don't even know for sure that Sam knows knows exactly what happened between Mary & Azazel. Dean saw it all. Sam has never actually talked to his mother about any of this. What Mary knows, she knows from Dean; she's only talked to Dean and Castiel about it. When she apologized to Sam (as a ghost, not as his mother) he had no idea what she was apologizing for. He's spent the entire series compartmentalizing his fear, anger and self-loathing. That anger against Magda's mother could just be the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, I think Sam has a grievance against Mary that needs to be dealt with!  Because Sam's all about forgiving and afraid of rejection, he's been very conciliatory with Mary. But he's NEVER had a chance to get rid of the anger, fear and self-loathing because he's never been able to talk to her. And at this point in the show, it doesn't look like they're EVER going to give Sam his catharsis.

I was thinking about Sam's behavior in s12 with Mary since that is really the first time he's actually been faced with a real Mary. I didn't have the impression he was holding anything against her in s12 beyond her betrayal with the BMOL which I guess he forgave once he got to the BMOLair. 

Admittedly, Sam is a bit of a cipher to me. I feel like he is apparently empathetic and well adjusted but maybe he's not. He doesn't really talk about his stuff. I guess I never saw him as someone who compartmentalizes and the blows up later. I wanted the show to deal with the torture in 12.01 but since they never did, I had come to think that maybe Sam really does have some way of dealing with things and moving on.

I remember in s11 in Into the Mystic, Dean was asking him if he was okay after the Lucifer 2.0 revisit and Sam finally said he wasn't but he didn't want to really talk about it and then he kind of said a little bit about.

So maybe there are patterns with Sam that are not as obvious to me. I'll have to look at bit more closely upon rewatches.

Thanks for answering!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

They could do a flashback, but they'd have to get Jared to bulk back up and grow back the sideburns. ;) 

Oh god, Not the sideburns!  Lol!

[auntvi]

OMIGOD, I never noticed this. Just saw this gif on tumblr. Baby Sam's eyes turn yellow for about 1 sec after Azazel drips blood into his mouth.

 

From elizabethrobertajones on tumblr.

Edited July 1, 2017 by auntvi
tumblr not tumbler

[bethy]

Wow.

[SueB]

Wow indeed.    I just confirmed it by pausing AHBL Pt1.