Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It was never about closure for Dean-not in my mind and not in the minds of the writers either, for that matter, IMO. That part of it was reserved only for Sam's regrets about never getting to say good-bye to his father and I don't mean that in a B VS J sort of way, but only by what I gleaned from things pertaining to this episode from strictly the scripted part of it and by what was predominantly promoted by the show in the days leading up to it and even by JDM, himself, for this episode. 

As much as I hate it, I really think that we, the Dean fans, are the ones that need closure - the satisfaction of perhaps seeing Dean give John a good swift kick in the balls, maybe slam a door or two in his face - not Dean. I really do think he's made peace with his lot in life, including his asshole of a father. I would even go as far as saying that Sam having his moment with Dad would be part of Dean's wish - because he always looks out for Sam, and he knew that Sam regretted his last words with John. Because Dean Winchester is a much, much better person than me. Sam and John reconciling, the ice queen showing up at just the right moment, ready and willing to put that nightgown on and get her butt into the kitchen? All conspired to give Dean his dream dinner - his family, alive, happy and sitting around the dining room table together. It kinda makes me want to hurl, but for Dean: heaven.

[SueB]

Why John of the past was his wish fulfillment. 

Dean said it was 'be a family again' in the episode.  And I think that's truly it -- because I think Mary was suddenly moved to drive to the bunker (without a phone call) and that's the pearl's effect.  But Dean would also want it to be a John who would appreciate all that Dean and Sam have accomplished.  That's 'hunting John' versus pre-Mary's death John.  And he'd want it to be REAL, not a ghost.  But I don't think Dean's deepest desire was for closure with his father.  It was for closure of that hole that opened when he was 4.  He lost his 'perfect family' at 4.  The Dean of 2019, however, would want a family that reflects the now.  As for why that hole from 1983 still mattered, well I think that's because it was foundational in forming Dean's personality.  Even if he's content with his lot in life now, that hole dominated his existence for a VERY long time.  In the book "The Loss That Is Forever", Dr Maxine Harris talks about the deep-seeded desire that is formed when a child has an early trauma.  So even if it was just a moment together - this moment spoke RIGHT to that trauma.  One that Dean wasn't consciously thinking about but still remained in his heart.  John's visit didn't fix his issues with John but it acknowledged that hole.  And just acknowledging the wound (Dabb's quote) makes a HUGE difference.  It wasn't his father acknowledging the wound, BTW.  It was the magic of the pearl.  But it was a moment of validation for Dean.  Validation of the damage that wound caused*.  Even if John had tried to have some apple pie life later - that hole would have existed to some extent.  Throw in Dean's parentification and that hole DEFINED him for the first 30 years of his life.   So... IMO... Dean got a shit-ton out of John coming forward in time and him having a brief family moment in 2019.  That initial wound won't ever go away, but 'the universe' acknowledging it helps IMO.  

*yes, others had already acknowledged how hard it must have been but it's different for the child (now adult). MOST children who have a trauma get sympathy from others at some point -- and the child becomes immune to it. I struggling to explain it but something like the pearl acknowledging how damaging that was is important I think. 

[Aeryn13]

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As much as I hate it, I really think that we, the Dean fans, are the ones that need closure - the satisfaction of perhaps seeing Dean give John a good swift kick in the balls, maybe slam a door or two in his face - not Dean. I really do think he's made peace with his lot in life, including his asshole of a father. I would even go as far as saying that Sam having his moment with Dad would be part of Dean's wish - because he always looks out for Sam, and he knew that Sam regretted his last words with John. Because Dean Winchester is a much, much better person than me. Sam and John reconciling, the ice queen showing up at just the right moment, ready and willing to put that nightgown on and get her butt into the kitchen? All conspired to give Dean his dream dinner - his family, alive, happy and sitting around the dining room table together. It kinda makes me want to hurl, but for Dean: heaven.

I wouldn`t actually need Dean to be really confrontational and angry (and I didn`t expect that from the episode). What I wanted as an honest acknowledgment between John and Dean about their past. Now John DID say that he put too much on Dean growing up and that he appreciated Dean`s strength and sacrifices and that speech was lovely.

However, he then proceeded to do it again. I agree Dean has moved on but that doesn`t mean there couldn`t be an honest conversation between the two men about it. Obviously, that couldn`t happen with 2003!John. That John was basically useless to any kind of catharsis for Dean`s character. And especially the lollipop version of John that appeared in Lebanon. He might as well have been a cardboard cutout so of course Dean got exactly nothing out of that visit. 

Which I could have lived with (despite the wasted potential of probably the one and only reappearance of JDM they will ever have, even if he appears in the Series Finale, it would likely be just a smiling ghost somewhere, lets be realistic, this was it and it was a waste) had they not made it based on Dean`s wish. Just because of that set-up, I expected a pay-off that never came.

I don`t think it actually changed anything for Dean. So what, if he had had just a pleasant dream about John being back and them having some cutesy family dinner, it would have been pretty much the same. He is the same person he was  before the episode and will be after, with the same degree of positive and negative feelings for his father or his family overall. The episode actually would have been more meaningful if for some reason Dean wasn`t around when John came back, and he had to do something that kept him from coming over right away but he tried to rush over and appeared just as John disappeared. That would have been tragic but at least it would have been impactful. Nothing about this was impactful for him.

[Cambion]

On 2/20/2019 at 9:33 AM, Katy M said:

Now, just because I think too much about things, I wonder why the pearl chose 2003 to bring John back from.  It could have chosen 5 minutes before his death, or it could have chosen before Mary's death to bring him back from.  Either one of those makes more sense to me from a wish granting standpoint.  Maybe not a storytelling, since obviously nothing much would change if he disappeared right before his heart attack.  And he would be almost a completely different character from pre-hunting times.  But, if Dean wanted his original family back (based on his own words of "since I was 5), early John would have made more sense. If he just wanted john back, right before he died would give him back the last John he knew.

3

For me, I think the Pearl gave Dean back the dad he knew best.  When they were hunting together as a team a lot of the time.  I think Dean would have felt closest to his dad then and it makes sense to bring that back to him in his "perfect family" moment.

[DeeDee79]

This seems to have been written quite a while ago ( before season 7 ) but I thought that it was an interesting read. Hope you guys think so too 😊

http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/supernatural-fridays-dean-winchester-and-the-dropped-plots-o-doom/

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This seems to have been written quite a while ago ( before season 7 ) but I thought that it was an interesting read. Hope you guys think so too 😊

http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/supernatural-fridays-dean-winchester-and-the-dropped-plots-o-doom/

ETA: I wholeheartedly agree on her thoughts about Dean as The Righteous Man. The outcome of that was a letdown IMO.

[tessathereaper]

28 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This seems to have been written quite a while ago ( before season 7 ) but I thought that it was an interesting read. Hope you guys think so too 😊

http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/supernatural-fridays-dean-winchester-and-the-dropped-plots-o-doom/

Oh yea that's snowleopard(at least on IMDB, don't know if she still calls herself that elsewhere).  I totally agree and that was just up until the end of Season 6, now there is so much more to add to "Dean's Dropped Plotlines".  And she's so right, no I don't want to hear "this is totally mundane, there is nothing extraordinary about Dean, anyone could take his place if they happened to be in his position" on every damn thing the show have with him.  

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Oh yea that's snowleopard(at least on IMDB, don't know if she still calls herself that elsewhere).  I totally agree and that was just up until the end of Season 6, now there is so much more to add to "Dean's Dropped Plotlines".  And she's so right, no I don't want to hear "this is totally mundane, there is nothing extraordinary about Dean, anyone could take his place if they happened to be in his position" on every damn thing the show have with him.  

Yup, it's snowleopard but the snowleopard.com site seems to be down at the moment. Paula's blog on freepress is still accessible. 

It's sad to think that years after she made this post that Dean's storylines continue to fizzle out without a satisfying conclusion. I would have loved to see how Purgatory would have been fleshed out if they had continued beyond a few flashbacks. I would have been satisfied with more detailed flashbacks!

Edited March 4, 2019 by DeeDee79

[7kstar]

The biggest issue with the drop plots, that it would have balanced out Sam's character and not created drama for Sam because of - you fill in the blank reason. (Not trying to offend Sam fans)

I think it is also another reason that Supernatural is the top tv show for fanfiction net.  With all the issues that someone didn't tell the story in a satisfying way, it allows fanfiction to shine as they try to fix what is broken.  It allows for creative juices to flow and tell the story they felt was missing.  Some good and some not so good.

38 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It's sad to think that years after she made this post that Dean's storylines continue to fizzle out without a satisfying conclusion. I would have loved to see how Purgatory would have been fleshed out if they had continued beyond a few flashbacks. I would have been satisfied with more detailed flashbacks! 

I understand there is a limited amount of time but so many times as it was pointed out, a few added lines could have fixed it.

I'm still exhausted, but hopefully, I'm making sense.  Not trying to start a war or offend anyone.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I think it is also another reason that Supernatural is the top tv show for fanfiction net.  With all the issues that someone didn't tell the story in a satisfying way, it allows fanfiction to shine as they try to fix what is broken.  It allows for creative juices to flow and tell the story they felt was missing.  Some good and some not so good.

Not to mention all of the episode “fix-it” fics that are on AO3 as well. A little more fleshing out instead of abruptly dropping storylines would go a long way.

[BabySpinach]

These reactions from the parade made me laugh. I'm always a sucker for Jensen getting well-deserved appreciation from both fans and newbies alike. No one can resist the power of the Ackles! 

[gonzosgirrl]

Hahahah!! Just think how much DEEEAAAAAANNNNN would've loved to be Bacchus. Man, they couldn't pry the grin off his face with a crowbar. (Kinda like Jensen :))

[FlickChick]

On 3/3/2019 at 8:41 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Yup, it's snowleopard but the snowleopard.com site seems to be down at the moment. Paula's blog on freepress is still accessible. 

The site is back up. Love her episode reviews. I suspect she was updating the site. She's missing some intermediate reviews, so perhaps that.

http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2018/10/17/supernatural-season-14/

[DeeDee79]

33 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

The site is back up. Love her episode reviews. I suspect she was updating the site. She's missing some intermediate reviews, so perhaps that.

http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2018/10/17/supernatural-season-14/

Awesome! Thank you!

[Casseiopeia]

On second thought it is a very dark Dean video.  It's on Youtube called Dean Winchester-Bury a Friend.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

On 3/5/2019 at 8:42 PM, Casseiopeia said:

On second thought it is a very dark Dean video.  It's on Youtube called Dean Winchester-Bury a Friend.

There were two, both good,  but the newer one by AngelDove,  wow. Dark indeed! Is it bad that it only makes me love (and miss) him so much more? 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There were two, both good,  but the newer one by AngelDove,  wow. Dark indeed! Is it bad that it only makes me love (and miss) him so much more? 

I do love Dark Dean.

[juppschmitz]

Glad as I am that the AU hunters are gone (hopefully NOT to be resurrected by all-powerful Jackieboy *eyeroll*), everyone needs to be (made) aware that their deaths are ultimately on Sam and Cas. Well, once Dean agreed to their pleas, I would have liked to see him make sure that he was tied up with archangel binding cuffs to prevent exactly what happened last episode. Rather than going around getting his silly noggin bashed against walls.

I have to say, between the stupid one-liner ("They always talk too much.") and not safe-guarding against Michael getting out, I'm losing respect for Dean.

So thank you, Dabb, you make it easier to say bye-bye to the show.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I have to say, between the stupid one-liner ("They always talk too much.

My headcanon is that was Michael seeping out a little because I honestly thought that sounded more like Michael than Dean. And there were other little moments that felt he was more like Michael in that episode than Dean. Yes I know it doesn't make sense but it makes more sense to me than Dean saying it.

[PAForrest]

4 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

I have to say, between the stupid one-liner ("They always talk too much.") and not safe-guarding against Michael getting out, I'm losing respect for Dean.

That's sad. 😢 As much as I may hate how far the writing/plotting/characterization has deteriorated, I guess I haven't gotten to the point that I don't like or respect Dean - even though they all do things that I think are just dumb. It would be easier to bolt if I did dislike him, believe me.

As for the line, "They always talk too much", I don't know, that totally sounds like something funny Dean would say. Am I the only one?

Though, sure, I could also buy it was a little of Michael's attitude seeping out too.

That line/attitude about bad guys droning on and on is a trope that shows up periodically in movies or tv. In fact, Geico had a brilliant commercial a few months ago with the hero being tied up in a chair waiting for the villain to eliminate him or try and make him talk, and then the villain starts with his long-winded power point presentation about his evil plan. And the hero just rolls his eyes - the point being made that the villains talk too much/reveal too much of their evil plan when they shouldn't. It was hysterical.

[Cambion]

9 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

That's sad. 😢 As much as I may hate how far the writing/plotting/characterization has deteriorated, I guess I haven't gotten to the point that I don't like or respect Dean - even though they all do things that I think are just dumb. It would be easier to bolt if I did dislike him, believe me.

As for the line, "They always talk too much", I don't know, that totally sounds like something funny Dean would say. Am I the only one?

Though, sure, I could also buy it was a little of Michael's attitude seeping out too.

That line/attitude about bad guys droning on and on is a trope that shows up periodically in movies or tv. In fact, Geico had a brilliant commercial a few months ago with the hero being tied up in a chair waiting for the villain to eliminate him or try and make him talk, and then the villain starts with his long-winded power point presentation about his evil plan. And the hero just rolls his eyes - the point being made that the villains talk too much/reveal too much of their evil plan when they shouldn't. It was hysterical.

I took it as Dean trying to be funny.  He said basically the same thing before he ganked the shop owner in ep 300.

[PAForrest]

41 minutes ago, Cambion said:

I took it as Dean trying to be funny.  He said basically the same thing before he ganked the shop owner in ep 300.

Ooookay, I thought that's what we were talking about, the line from the 300th, where he still had Michael in his head.  My mistake. I'm putting all the rest of the season episodes on hold on the dvr until possibly after the finale airs, so I didn't realize he said it again in the last episode.

That's weirdly super redundant more than anything, especially considering the 300th wasn't that long ago. Huh.

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Ooookay, I thought that's what we were talking about, the line from the 300th, where he still had Michael in his head.  My mistake. I'm putting all the rest of the season episodes on hold on the dvr until possibly after the finale airs, so I didn't realize he said it again in the last episode.

That's weirdly super redundant more than anything, especially considering the 300th wasn't that long ago. Huh.

No, I'm pretty sure that you're right. He did say it in the 300th episode. I don't think that he's said it again since then. I also found it funny and no worse than what Dean and any other character have previously said on the show.

Edited March 9, 2019 by DeeDee79

[Cambion]

13 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Ooookay, I thought that's what we were talking about, the line from the 300th, where he still had Michael in his head.  My mistake. I'm putting all the rest of the season episodes on hold on the dvr until possibly after the finale airs, so I didn't realize he said it again in the last episode.

That's weirdly super redundant more than anything, especially considering the 300th wasn't that long ago. Huh.

1

Maybe I'm dreamin and he only said once, I've only been to watch ep 14 one time.

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, Cambion said:

Maybe I'm dreamin and he only said once, I've only been to watch ep 14 one time.

I am sure he only said it in the 300th. For me it just shows how little these writers understand the character beyond the stereotype. It is totally a Dean-style joke, but IMO, he would not say it while killing a fully-human enemy.  That's why it fell flat for me, and the problem with the paint by numbers writing crew they have now. No nuance in their understanding of the characters.

[tessathereaper]

11 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Glad as I am that the AU hunters are gone (hopefully NOT to be resurrected by all-powerful Jackieboy *eyeroll*), everyone needs to be (made) aware that their deaths are ultimately on Sam and Cas. Well, once Dean agreed to their pleas, I would have liked to see him make sure that he was tied up with archangel binding cuffs to prevent exactly what happened last episode. Rather than going around getting his silly noggin bashed against walls.

I have to say, between the stupid one-liner ("They always talk too much.") and not safe-guarding against Michael getting out, I'm losing respect for Dean.

So thank you, Dabb, you make it easier to say bye-bye to the show.

I think Sam and Cas would have given him more speeches about giving up and being a quitter, how he was letting them down, etc, etc.  The same with the box, yeah Dean "gave in" to them, but if he hadn't, as we've seen in Season 5, if he doesn't do it like they want him to and tries to go off and do it?  They stop him from doing so, by beating him up or they do other things behind his back and keep it from him by lying so that whatever he was trying to do, gets messed up(See Season 10).  So really what makes you think Sam and Cas would have let him take himself out of the action?  As it is he's lucky they didn't do something to the box to make it so it wouldn't work. 

And I still don't care about "they always talk too much", the guy was a killer, he was quite willing to do so again and he was using supernatural items to do so, in fact he killed to steal supernatural items - they've been willing to kill humans who use the supernatural since Season 1, it was unexpected at first because they hadn't experienced it but since then they've clearly now realize once those people start using the supernatural to help them commit their crimes - they have stepped out of the human realm anyway. 

I'm not exactly sure why Dean or Sam should be upset or take it anymore seriously that they offed this killer who clearly had no issues doing it again and very likely had done it even before killing one of their friends?  He may have been born human but given he was involved in the hunting world, was using a supernatural items to commit his crimes and showed no remorse, not exactly sure what makes him better than any demon or other creature they've come up against, one could even say he's even worse than some of them, because Terry definitely had a choice, he chose to murder.  And Dean knows his tropes, so I took it more as him pointing out the truth of the trope anyway - it's not like the murderer, whom Dean killed in self-defense/defense of others, would be any less dead if he hadn't said it. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by tessathereaper

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

And I still don't care about "they always talk too much", the guy was a killer, he was quite willing to do so again and he was using supernatural items to do so, in fact he killed to steal supernatural items - they've been willing to kill humans who use the supernatural since Season 1, it was unexpected at first because they hadn't experienced it but since then they've clearly now realize once those people start using the supernatural to help them commit their crimes - they have stepped out of the human realm anyway.  I'm not exactly sure why Dean or Sam should be upset or take it anymore seriously that they offed this killer who clearly had no issues doing it again and very likely had done it even before killing one of their friends?  He may have been born human but given he was involved in the hunting world, was using a supernatural items to commit his crimes and showed no remorse, not exactly sure what makes him better than any demon or other creature they've come up against, one could even say he's even worse than some of them, because he definitely had a choice.  

Thank you!!! I totally agree with this take.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just to clarify,  I had no problem at all with Dean killing the guy, especially as he was just about to kill Sam. But making a joke about it doesn't seem like something Dean would do, IMO. 

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just to clarify,  I had no problem at all with Dean killing the guy, especially as he was just about to kill Sam. But making a joke about it doesn't seem like something Dean would do, IMO. 

Um ... yes, he does. 

Here's the ones just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others:

S5E3   Killing Vampire.  "Eat it, Twilight!"

S9E19  Decapitating a vampire he has up against the wall.  "Look at me.  Look at me, bitch!"

S10E2  Killing Lester.  "Is that what you like to do?  Watch?  Well, watch this."

And these are just the ones I can think of happening AS he ganks something/one.  He jokes about killing something/one a lot also:

S4E7  "You're gonna wipe out a whole town for one little witch. Sounds to me like you're compensating for something."

S7E15  "I don't usually endorse suicide, but, man, what stopped you?" 

S9E2   "You hold him down while we knife him, and then we'll all go out for ice cream and strippers."  

And let's not forget his attitude about it:  

S9E19   Killing things that need killing is kind of our job. Last I checked, taking pleasure in that is not a crime.

I don't think he takes killing as a joke, but he jokes about it.  Sorta like the Trauma Orthopaedists, I used to work for, you gotta joke about patients who were mangled in car wrecks to keep from going mad from the stress of fixing those patients.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Cambion

[tessathereaper]

53 minutes ago, Cambion said:

Um ... yes, he does. 

Here's the ones just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others:

S5E3   Killing Vampire.  "Eat it, Twilight!"

S9E19  Decapitating a vampire he has up against the wall.  "Look at me.  Look at me, bitch!"

S10E2  Killing Lester.  "Is that what you like to do?  Watch?  Well, watch this."

And these are just the ones I can think of happening AS he ganks something/one.  He jokes about killing something/one a lot also:

S4E7  "You're gonna wipe out a whole town for one little witch. Sounds to me like you're compensating for something."

S7E15  "I don't usually endorse suicide, but, man, what stopped you?" 

S9E2   "You hold him down while we knife him, and then we'll all go out for ice cream and strippers."  

And let's not forget his attitude about it:  

S9E19   Killing things that need killing is kind of our job. Last I checked, taking pleasure in that is not a crime.

I don't think he takes killing as a joke, but he jokes about it.  Sorta like the Trauma Orthopaedists, I used to work for, you gotta joke about patients who were mangled in car wrecks to keep from going mad from the stress of fixing those patients.

Right and the fact that Terry was "human" IMO doesn't put him in some other category - he was using his knowledge of the supernatural to commit his crimes, he stepped out of being just human, esp as he was involved in the hunting world.  He was not some poor innocent who got caught up in something he didn't understand.  Seriously I'm all for the idea that the writers frequently forget who Dean is anymore, very much so, but that wisecrack was not out of character. 

The man was a murderer, who used the supernatural to commit his murders, he had no remorse, he was aiming to the same thing again, what in the world made him somehow more worthy of "respect" than any of other beings they've killed over the years that have gotten a wisecrack made in relation to it?  I can't remember the last time they differentiated between "supernatural creature" who hurts people and "human using supernatural tools/powers" to hurt people when it comes to how they treated them nor should they, because once a character crosses that line of using the supernatural you stop being a concern for the normal authorities and become a concern of hunters.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Cambion said:

Um ... yes, he does. 

Here's the ones just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others:

S5E3   Killing Vampire.  "Eat it, Twilight!"

S9E19  Decapitating a vampire he has up against the wall.  "Look at me.  Look at me, bitch!"

S10E2  Killing Lester.  "Is that what you like to do?  Watch?  Well, watch this."

And these are just the ones I can think of happening AS he ganks something/one.  He jokes about killing something/one a lot also:

S4E7  "You're gonna wipe out a whole town for one little witch. Sounds to me like you're compensating for something."

S7E15  "I don't usually endorse suicide, but, man, what stopped you?" 

S9E2   "You hold him down while we knife him, and then we'll all go out for ice cream and strippers."  

And let's not forget his attitude about it:  

S9E19   Killing things that need killing is kind of our job. Last I checked, taking pleasure in that is not a crime.

I don't think he takes killing as a joke, but he jokes about it.  Sorta like the Trauma Orthopaedists, I used to work for, you gotta joke about patients who were mangled in car wrecks to keep from going mad from the stress of fixing those patients.

I was talking about killing humans not monsters. As for the comment about taking out a whole town I think there's a difference between being sarcastic about something theoretical that someone else was going to do, and being Cavalier when you have just finished killing a person. That is not Dean.

Edited March 10, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I think Sam and Cas would have given him more speeches about giving up and being a quitter, how he was letting them down, etc, etc.

Fair enough, but I would have loved it to actually happen ON-SCREEN, rather than it being left to the imagination and head canon.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was talking about killing humans not monsters. As for the comment about taking out a whole town I think there's a difference between being sarcastic about something theoretical that someone else was going to do, and being Cavalier when you have just finished killing a person. That is not Dean.

I'm not sure why you think it's not Dean, he's done it before.  Terry was not "special" because he was human, it's been years since the show has acted like humans who use the supernatural to commit their crimes are in any way really different from supernatural creatures.  With good reason. Because they aren't.  Terry had murdered before, was showing zero remorse for it and was about to kill Sam and the only reason he didn't was because he kept on talking which gave Dean the chance to shoot him.   Why in the world would Dean act any differently than if he'd just killed a vampire?  In fact I feel pretty safe in saying none of the characters would be particularly upset about it or look at it any differently than killing a supernatural creature - by using the supernatural to kill, a person essentially makes themselves a supernatural creature, by choice.  

[gonzosgirrl]

53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I'm not sure why you think it's not Dean, he's done it before.  Terry was not "special" because he was human, it's been years since the show has acted like humans who use the supernatural to commit their crimes are in any way really different from supernatural creatures.  With good reason. Because they aren't.  Terry had murdered before, was showing zero remorse for it and was about to kill Sam and the only reason he didn't was because he kept on talking which gave Dean the chance to shoot him.   Why in the world would Dean act any differently than if he'd just killed a vampire?  In fact I feel pretty safe in saying none of the characters would be particularly upset about it or look at it any differently than killing a supernatural creature - by using the supernatural to kill, a person essentially makes themselves a supernatural creature, by choice.  

Whether or not the killing was justified (it was) isn't at issue. Again I'll say, I don't think there is another example of Dean being cavalier, cracking wise after killing a human. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Whether or not the killing was justified (it was) isn't at issue. Again I'll say, I don't think there is another example of Dean being cavalier, cracking wise after killing a human. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

Lester was human. Dean jokes about all kinds of things, and as much as we might love the guy, his hands are not lily white.  So we can split hairs here as much as we want, but the fact remains that Lester was just as human as Terry (and far less guilty/evil for those who want to go there) and Dean made a sarcastic/sassy/funny/whatever-you-want-to-call-it remark as he killed him.  I'm also fairly certain there were other humans, including a couple that he allowed someone else to kill and made a remark.  I don't remember enough about it to look them up at this point,  If they come to me I will.  But suffice it to say, Terry was not the only human Dean has been cavalier about as he killed them. 

[Aeryn13]

Lester? Was that the one Demon!Dean killed? I mean, that doesn't count as Regular!Dean to me because being a demon should change some things about you. Can't remember if he quipped about it but for a demon, that should be expected.

I personally didn't care about the quip with the shop owner either since I found it funny. Have the morals of the characters in general (and not just Dean, Sam ain't lilywhite either but often acts as preachy as if he were) eroded so it's more like the tribalistic attitude from TVD? Absolutely. It's reason number 4736579  the show has gone downhill.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was talking about killing humans not monsters. As for the comment about taking out a whole town I think there's a difference between being sarcastic about something theoretical that someone else was going to do, and being Cavalier when you have just finished killing a person. That is not Dean.

What about The Mentalists when he made a joke about the guy Sam killed having the ghosts bones in his bed?  How about after Henricksen, while posseseseed, killed the sherriff and dean joked that the did not kill the deputy.

I realize he didn't actually do the killing in either of those cases, but the sheriff wasn't doing anything wrong. He was a good guy and he still made a joke right over his body.  I agree with others that it wasn't out of character.  They just, luckily, don't kill all that many humans on the show.  And, no, he isn't always in a joking mood afterwards, but sometimes he is.

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I personally didn't care about the quip with the shop owner either since I found it funny. Have the morals of the characters in general (and not just Dean, Sam ain't lilywhite either but often acts as preachy as if he were) eroded so it's more like the tribalistic attitude from TVD? Absolutely. It's reason number 4736579  the show has gone downhill.

And that's the mic drop, because when I occasionally catch an early season one episode on TNT and see Dean or anyone else agonizing over killing a human meatsuit, it's jarring to be reminded that this kind of thing used to matter, used to bother them. I admit I don't think about it anymore because the show has changed pretty damn radically on that score over the last 14 years - thus why the funny line, which I know was put in there by the writer simply to be a funny line, doesn't resonate at all.

But sure, if you consider it in terms of how they used to think 14 years ago, it seems inappropriate.

WRT Dean specifically and similar quips he's spouted in the moment over the years, because the writers (including if not especially the really good ones from a decade + ago) love writing those kinds of lines for Jensen/Dean, I do think a case can be easily made too that Dean says this kind of stuff as a coping mechanism for the violence he is forced to engage in.

But in the minds of the writers over the years, especially these writers, I'm sure little to no thought is put into why Dean or any other character is saying what they're writing a lot of times. It's just what the writer du jour thinks sound cool or funny in that scene that week. The thought process doesn't go deeper than that with these writers today - if even that superficial.

[ahrtee]

I don't think it's anything new, including the attitude of killing "humans."  Way back in Malleus Malefacarum in season 3, *Sam* was the one saying they should kill the witches, because they'd used their powers to kill.  Dean was startled (and a little worried that Sam was turning bloodthirsty) but just shrugged and said "burn witch burn."  Dean often uses sometimes inappropriate humor, generally after a close call, to relieve tension.  

I think over the years they've both realized that their job is not just about monsters, but anyone who's using any kind of special powers to hurt innocents, since those are the things "normal" police can't stop (think the crazy student in DALDOM or the evil magician in Criss Angel.)  They didn't kill them directly, but certainly didn't mourn them.  And was there *any* grief over wiping out all the BMoL?  Even Jody killed in cold blood without blinking.  And Mary shot Ketch point blank (it didn't take, but the idea was there. 😊) 

I don't think it's a casual attitude towards killing humans, but another phase of the "saving people." They can leave the police/sheriff/FBI to solve cases they can understand; but it's up to them to save those harmed by supernatural means, no matter who did the killing, because there's no real proof to prosecute.  Saving people, hunting "things."  And humans who use special powers to kill have become "things."  

[tessathereaper]

37 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think it's anything new, including the attitude of killing "humans."  Way back in Malleus Malefacarum in season 3, *Sam* was the one saying they should kill the witches, because they'd used their powers to kill.  Dean was startled (and a little worried that Sam was turning bloodthirsty) but just shrugged and said "burn witch burn."  Dean often uses sometimes inappropriate humor, generally after a close call, to relieve tension.  

I think over the years they've both realized that their job is not just about monsters, but anyone who's using any kind of special powers to hurt innocents, since those are the things "normal" police can't stop (think the crazy student in DALDOM or the evil magician in Criss Angel.)  They didn't kill them directly, but certainly didn't mourn them.  And was there *any* grief over wiping out all the BMoL?  Even Jody killed in cold blood without blinking.  And Mary shot Ketch point blank (it didn't take, but the idea was there. 😊) 

I don't think it's a casual attitude towards killing humans, but another phase of the "saving people." They can leave the police/sheriff/FBI to solve cases they can understand; but it's up to them to save those harmed by supernatural means, no matter who did the killing, because there's no real proof to prosecute.  Saving people, hunting "things."  And humans who use special powers to kill have become "things."  

Exactly, I don't see it as callous but it's part of their job.  And IMO they'd have to change after 14 years in this regard, otherwise they would not be able to do their job.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I guess it's subjective but for me, that seemed out of character for Dean. Maybe because he actually did the killing. I don't put things Demon Dean did in the same category. 

Like Dean pulling a gun on Kaiah to get her in the car, it can be rationalized, but it doesn't change how it made me feel in that moment. It was out of character enough to take me out of the moment and think about the shitty writing instead. 

[Cambion]

I submit that Demon!Dean did absolutely nothing different than Regular!Dean ever did, just more intensely and with more relish.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Cambion

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Cambion said:

I submit that Demon!Dean did absolutely nothing different than Regular!Dean ever did, just more intensely and with more relish.

Regular Dean would never karaoke.  But, yeah, being turned into a demon didn't change Dean much at all except for take away his "protect Sammy" instinct.

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Whether or not the killing was justified (it was) isn't at issue. Again I'll say, I don't think there is another example of Dean being cavalier, cracking wise after killing a human. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

The only one I can think of was him killing Hitler, when he said "Heil this" before killing him, which it was Hitler and not even a wisecrack. Afterward Sam said "You killed Hitler!..awesome." And then he just kept saying he killed Hitler. No wisecracks about it. Not in the way he did here.

It didn't make me not like Dean, because for me, it just didn't seem like Dean and it didn't really seem to have Dean's cadence either. It was such a weird and out of place thing that I legit thought it was Michael. Kind of like when Michael said "it's a party" in Nihilism. That seemed more like a Dean moment so my headcanon is that  I think Michael was picking up Dean's sarcasm because he wasn't that sarcastic when he first possessed Dean. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[tessathereaper]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Regular Dean would never karaoke.  But, yeah, being turned into a demon didn't change Dean much at all except for take away his "protect Sammy" instinct.

Regular Dean also wouldn't have been such an ass to that woman he slept with, we've seen Dean with his one night stands, after the "stand", and he's clearly very nice, affectionate, they never have any complaints because they knew what the score was to begin with and wanted the same thing.

But none the less I do think the point stands that Demon Dean was pretty much like Dean just with some of his kindness and "protect Sammy" indoctrination pared out.  

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

joke about the guy Sam killed having the ghosts bones in his bed?  How about after Henricksen, while posseseseed, killed the sherriff and dean joked that the did not kill the deputy. 

Dean makes wisecracks most often before killing monsters, etc.  I don't remember him doing it after he kills them. He takes death seriously. Other than this episode, I can't thing of a time he said something snarky directly to the perpetrator after killing them other than Azazel, when he said  "That was for our Mom, you son of a bitch." That isn't a wisecrack nor snark. He meant it.

I felt that line was dropped in for filling a Dean checklist regardless if it felt organic to the story or not. It was forced writing IMO.

Edited March 10, 2019 by catrox14
victim and perpetrator areost definitely not the same thing

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, Cambion said:

I submit that Demon!Dean did absolutely nothing different than Regular!Dean ever did, just more intensely and with more relish.

I completely disagree here. I'll take my thoughts to another thread though.

[Cambion]

50 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Regular Dean would never karaoke.  But, yeah, being turned into a demon didn't change Dean much at all except for take away his "protect Sammy" instinct.

Okay, I'll give ya the karaoke.  ROFL

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And was there *any* grief over wiping out all the BMoL?

The ruthless way they went in and wiped out everyone in that facility is a whole other kettle of fish. 

I know this is genre TV where individual lives don't matter so much but it certainly was a tipping point for my enjoyment of the show.

So yes, there was a lot of grief over that particular event on my side.

[juppschmitz]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The only one I can think of was him killing Hitler, when he said "Heil this" before killing him, which it was Hitler and not even a wisecrack. Afterward Sam said "You killed Hitler!..awesome." And then he just kept saying he killed Hitler. No wisecracks about it. Not in the way he did here.

It didn't make me not like Dean, because for me, it just didn't seem like Dean and it didn't really seem to have Dean's cadence either. It was such a weird and out of place thing that I legit thought it was Michael. Kind of like when Michael said "it's a party" in Nihilism. That seemed more like a Dean moment so my headcanon is that  I think Michael was picking up Dean's sarcasm because he wasn't that sarcastic when he first possessed Dean. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sorry, but for me as a German the Hitler episode reached a whole other level of inappropriateness. Unsurprisingly the same writer was involved. (I've read a recap by a casual viewer of Lebanon and he was pretty much disturbed by the flippancy with which John Wayne Gacy's ghost was shown in that ep.)

But fair enough, feel very free to disagree with my opinion.

(I realize this is the wrong thread, but where should I put it? Unpopular opinions?)