Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[Found A Peanut]

That would be a fair enough observation, if Cait herself was saying that was the case. But she's not. She's talking up the importance of her role, but at the same time pairing that talking up with boat loads of shallow activities. For me it's a case of living by your own words. If you don't want to be a figurehead and just have fun? By all means, go for it! But then don't bang on so much about how important this all is. Make clear statements on the matter. Live by them. Or if you don't want the responsibility of matching your actions to your words? Then in that case step back from the publicity (at least as much as possible). It's even worse when outlets like People Magazine pump out content like this: PEOPLE.com: Caitlyn Jenner's Most Inspiring, Thought-Provoking Quotes (As of Yet)In the months since she's announced her transition, the I Am Cait star has doled out many words of wisdom about gender, being true to yourself and having an impact The actual quotes (they're in a slideshow in that article) aren't that bad. They're not genius either. The issue is less what she's actually saying, and more that even when the words ARE on target, they're at odds with many of the actions. And undeniably the intent of the words is that she be taken seriously... so is it any wonder people wince when they hear those words mixed with news about shoe shopping, appearance schedules, what Kim thinks, etc.?

I thought Caitlyn's quotes were on point. When she talks about how important her role is I think there's an element of self importance, some excitement, but, also, she really is that important. That Bruce Jenner the Olympic champion, the guy with the medals on the Wheaties box, is a woman and *always was* has mainstreamed discussion of trans issues like BOOM. Caitlyn is hugely important. But I would argue that she's hugely important even if she never does another thing besides stroll around being a glamazon. I actually think most people don't care and won't especially notice her being all that socially responsible, they will tune out her explicit advocacy, but the fact of Caitlyn's existence all by itself changes the conversation around trans issues. Caitlyn just living her glamorous life is still important.

I get that the Kardashians in general gall a lot of people for a lot of different reasons, but their cultural presence is massive, pervasive. Yeah, yeah, Kim. Kim who has literally tens of millions of followers on social media. Kim who has been almost note perfect with her arc of having just a little bit of confusion and struggle with the idea of Bruce's transition, the listening to and relaying to her followers of Kanye's message about truth to self, and finally sticking the landing on cheerful acceptance, pride in Caitlyn's bravery, and fashion. Let's talk clothes! It doesn't matter if we don't take Kim Kardashian seriously. Maybe taking things seriously, and speaking serious thoughts about serious things isn't the only way to effect serious change in the world.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Found A Peanut

[HumblePi]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, so this will be the last time I post about this. Why can't she show off her shoe collection? If she doesn't show it off, will all those transgender people without hormones, health care, or rent money suddenly get them? Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt are known for their humanitarian work, but they also bought themselves a nice French castle with a moat & Angelina recently bought Brad a special Aston Martin that goes for 200K. George Clooney is known for his work with human rights, but he also owns 2 vacation villas in Lake Como, italy. So what if Caitlyn is showing off her shoes? She can have fun being a girl AND help people. And she doesn't have to be on "transgender call" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Every second of her life doesn't have to be about helping other people.

The obvious flaunting of privilege is most likely the reason that people start to get turned off. What other celebrities, including those you mention, are ostentatious about their material possessions or over elaborate their worldly valuables? You're right, showing off her line of shoes and designer dresses is of no benefit to the transgender community, but to whose benefit is it anyway?

[Found A Peanut]

I wouldn't underestimate the importance of simple visibility and representation. So, the Kardashians are trifling, superficial famewhores. Maybe Caitlyn Jenner is a trifling, superficial famewhore, too. (And I'm not declaring that she is or isn't because the jury is out for me.) A lot of trans kids are so isolated and now they can see Caitlyn living the dream, even follow her on Twitter. It's all aspirational: it's never too late to transition, watch Caitlyn get every surgery invented to shape presentation, watch Caitlyn get all the love and acceptance, watch Caitlyn get ALL the clothes and look good wearing them, too. Trans kids are so marginalized and starved for representation. Caitlyn may or may not turn out to be a real activist, but if she turns out to have the kind cultural presence the Kardashians do, that all by itself might be something an isolated trans kid who worries that they'll never have a life or love because God made them wrong can look to for encouragement to hang on.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Found A Peanut

[millennium]

That would be a fair enough observation, if Cait herself was saying that was the case.  But she's not.  She's talking up the importance of her role, but at the same time pairing that talking up with boat loads of shallow activities.

 

For me it's a case of living by your own words. If you don't want to be a figurehead and just have fun?  By all means, go for it!  But then don't bang on so much about how important this all is. Make clear statements on the matter. Live by them. Or if you don't want the responsibility of matching your actions to your words? Then in that case step back from the publicity (at least as much as possible).

 

It's even worse when outlets like People Magazine pump out content like this: 

 

PEOPLE.com: Caitlyn Jenner's Most Inspiring, Thought-Provoking Quotes (As of Yet)

In the months since she's announced her transition, the I Am Cait star has doled out many words of wisdom about gender, being true to yourself and having an impact

 

The actual quotes (they're in a slideshow in that article) aren't that bad. They're not genius either. The issue is less what she's actually saying, and more that even when the words ARE on target, they're at odds with many of the actions.  And undeniably the intent of the words is that she be taken seriously... so is it any wonder people wince when they hear those words mixed with news about shoe shopping, appearance schedules, what Kim thinks, etc.?

 

I really appreciate your observations on this topic.    Your posts are a clearer distillation of what I've been trying to say in my "circuitous" manner.  

 

Regarding the conflict between Jenner's lofty talk and shallow actions:  In my opinion, Jenner is attempting to establish beachheads on the Kardashian market and the transgender activist front, as a means of deriving publicity, fame and fortune from both.  I also suspect Jenner is reciting talking points about the plight of the transgender community -- in other words, exploiting it -- as a shield against personal criticism.

Edited July 26, 2015 by millennium

[Found A Peanut]

I really appreciate your observations on this topic.    Your posts are a clearer distillation of what I've been trying to say in my "circuitous" manner.  

 

Regarding the conflict between Jenner's lofty talk and shallow actions:  In my opinion, Jenner is attempting to establish beachheads on the Kardashian market and the transgender activist front, as a means of deriving publicity, fame and fortune from both.  I also suspect Jenner is reciting talking points about the plight of the transgender community -- in other words, exploiting it -- as a shield against personal criticism.

What's the personal criticism you feel that Jenner is trying to shield herself from?

[Fostersmom]

I thought Caitlyn's quotes were on point. When she talks about how important her role is I think there's an element of self importance, some excitement, but, also, she really is that important. That Bruce Jenner the Olympic champion, the guy with the medals on the Wheaties box, is a woman and *always was* has mainstreamed discussion of trans issues like BOOM. Caitlyn is hugely important. But I would argue that she's hugely important even if she never does another thing besides stroll around being a glamazon. I actually think most people don't care and won't especially notice her being all that socially responsible, they will tune out her explicit advocacy, but the fact of Caitlyn's existence all by itself changes the conversation around trans issues. Caitlyn just living her glamorous life is still important.

 

 

I said pages ago that I would need Caitlyn to be more than just hair and makeup, and I still believe that, as I do for all women, but like you said she's been Caitlyn for like 5 minutes, and I'm willing to give her a bit of time. It's been what? Not even 2 months since Caitlyn has been Caitlyn vs. 65 years of Bruce. And let's be honest, there's been years of press about Bruce's bad plastic surgery, rumors of cross dressing, and reality show storylines of Bruce's bad hair, pierced ears, bad clothes, and Kris not letting him spend money on anything that would make Bruce happy. Now that Caitlyn is free to live how she chooses, look how she chooses, and not answering to anyone but herself, more power to her to flaunt the (finally) good plastic surgery, the nice hair, and clothes for a few minutes. Now, if in a year, Caitlyn is still nothing but a vapid twit, I'll start to throw some shade. I'm not even talking about her changing the world or becoming the public face of all transgendered people. Just being more than a Kim clone would work for me. If Caitlyn goes back to public speaking like Bruce used to do, so be it. It's something productive.

 

Although, I guess at 65, I couldn't even really complain if Caitlyn decided she's going to just enjoy her new life and the things afforded to her by years of working hard to bank some money. There's plenty of people living off of who they USED to be and just enjoying a very comfortable life now. Isn't that basically the American Dream? Work hard, retire, and enjoy life. 

[millennium]

What's the personal criticism you feel that Jenner is trying to shield herself from?

 

 

 

Being nothing more than another vapid, fame-seeking Kardashian. 

[Kromm]

Now, if in a year, Caitlyn is still nothing but a vapid twit, I'll start to throw some shade. I'm not even talking about her changing the world or becoming the public face of all transgendered people. Just being more than a Kim clone would work for me. If Caitlyn goes back to public speaking like Bruce used to do, so be it. It's something productive.

This is what's at the root of me wishing this aired a year from now (even if it filmed now). It not only seems opportunistic (strike while the press iron is hot), it also seems ill advised if anyone wants a sense of true perspective put on their story. It's short sighted at best, and greedy at worst.

 

But who am I to question?  It seems to be working. Very little of the press is negative (maybe out of fear of being labeled as Transphobic). 

[Artsda]

Vanity Fair 10 min documentary of the cover  story/shoot.

 

This documentary shows how Vanity Fair’s editors and Caitlyn Jenner collaborated on her culture-shifting debut.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/07/caitlyn-jenner-documentary?mbid=social_twitter#1

[millennium]

"Culture shifting?"

 

Jury's still out on that.

[Kromm]

I'd say it's not entirely inaccurate. It's just a shame to attribute it to a specific (or maybe THIS specific) person.

 

Really it's more of a result of a shift than a cause of one.

[mbaywife123]

Caitlyn is not a Kardashian, would the mods please start a new thread and move the posts about her to a Call me Caitlyn (in the C section) thread? Thank You.

[nexxie]

Well, about the actual program, I thought it was well done and fascinating - especially the parts about Caitlyn's mom and sisters. Looking forward to future episodes. Wish we could see Caitlyn with her four Jenner kids - and also with her grandkids.

[howmanywords]

I wasnt sure if there was going to be a separate thread so I held off on commenting..but well i loved it.  I was fascinated watching the whole show and I thought it was very well done.  The part where Caitlyn is talking to Kyler Prescott's mother made me tear up. Next week looks even more interesting based on the preview where it looks like the reaction to the Vanity Fair article will be focused on and how upset Khloe was.

[Artsda]

Caitlyn is not a Kardashian, would the mods please start a new thread and move the posts about her to a Call me Caitlyn (in the C section) thread? Thank You.

She's still a member of the family, she's still their father and has 10 seasons of KUWTK behind her and possibly can still appear on future episodes (ie the family appearing on both I am Cait and KUWTK). Caitlyn having her own spin-off show doesn't mean everything Caitlyn needs to be moved.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Caitlyn is not a Kardashian, would the mods please start a new thread and move the posts about her to a Call me Caitlyn (in the C section) thread? Thank You.

There is an I am Cait forum under I already.

[politichick]

Except Jenner wants it both ways -- to be rich and fabulous AND have the public believe that all the problems of the transgender community are being borne upon those broad shoulders (see the spoiler in my post above).   Thing is, I don't see any current headlines like "Caitlyn Jenner appeals to local Congressional representatives about transgender rights."  Instead, the headlines I'm seeing today are "Caitlyn Jenner Shows Off Her Shoe Collection."

 

Shoe Collection?  Really, Imelda?

 

Is Jenner completely tone deaf or does Jenner simply not give a shit about the impression that leaves?    Transgender people all over America can't meet their rents, can't afford hormones, surgery or other health care, can't get the counseling they need, are being fired from their jobs, but "sleepless" Jenner, the "Transgender Superhero" (kudos to Kromm) is showing off a fucking shoe collection.  

 

At the same time, Jenner seems to be demonstrating a very shallow, stereotypical and crass male view of what it means to be a woman.  "Oh look at my pretty designer dresses, check out my shoe collection, here I am having my glamour makeover and boudoir photo shoot."  What next?  A Barbie Dreamhouse?   Jenner's reality is not only totally out of touch with most transgender people, but also most women.   

I totally agree with you, Millenium. Jenner needs to be lobbying on behalf of her new community big time because she said she wants to make a difference.. She needs to make the first major donation to a new mega charity that will help those who don't have the same resources to not have to make the painful choice each month between rent and hormone treatments, therapy and whatever else they need for their transition.The whole time I was watching, all I could think of was how this person is more in love with playing dress-up than anything else.

 

I love to shop as much as the next girl and lord knows i'm massively into expensive skincare prodcucts and lipstick and perfume, but I need to see way more depth from our girl Cait.

 

She may be out of touch with most women because her closest and longest reference are those Kardashian chicks. That's what she knows about being a woman and it ain't good.

[OnceSane]

Caitlyn is not a Kardashian, would the mods please start a new thread and move the posts about her to a Call me Caitlyn (in the C section) thread? Thank You.

Caitlyn is still part of the Kardashian family and a part of the Kardashian series of shows. There is no reason to move any part of the thread out of this forum.

[millennium]

The part where Caitlyn is talking to Kyler Prescott's mother made me tear up. 

 

If Jenner had any history of advocating for or helping transgender people before the big media blitz, any history at all, I might be able to see this as something other than a PR move.   But the timing of it, as part of the first episode of a reality TV show, brings out the cynic in me.   It makes me think of politicians who make a big show of visiting victims of tragedies or disasters.

 

Bruce Jenner remained silent for more than a year while the media speculated about the different surgical and cosmetic treatments he was undergoing.   He remained silent and allowed all kinds of mean-spirited transphobic jokes (about what he might be up to) to proliferate unchecked.   He could have spoken out and helped to put the brakes on transphobia at a much earlier date and made the public aware of the problems transgender people face much sooner.   But he didn't.    That he let it all happen and waited only until the timing was right for the Vanity Fair/ESPY Award/reality show before speaking out contributes to my cynicism about these new displays of concern.

Edited July 28, 2015 by millennium

[howmanywords]

I have no ides what Caitlyn's motives were/are but the Kyler tragedy is very much real and I found the story itself sad. A woman talking about how her child committed suicide I found extremely sad. I would find it very hard to believe Caitlyn wasnt moved by what she was listening to.

[millennium]

I have no ides what Caitlyn's motives were/are but the Kyler tragedy is very much real and I found the story itself sad. A woman talking about how her child committed suicide I found extremely sad. I would find it very hard to believe Caitlyn wasnt moved by what she was listening to.

 

It is extremely sad.   My feelings about the incorporation of this story on the show are not a reflection on the tragedy or your reaction to the story. 

 

I know some will argue, "Even if it was a PR ploy, it will do some good to familiarize more people with Kyler Prescott's story, so that hopefully something this awful  never happens again."

 

And I don't dispute that.    But at the same time, I can't help but think what a shame someone who believes she has the fame and influence to "change the world" hadn't spoken out about stories like this sooner, instead of waiting to perfect her looks and launch a reality show.   

[Kromm]

To me it's also a kind of pandering to just accept the "ends justifies the means" SO totally that someone's motives don't matter. There probably are plenty of times in life when the ends justify the means, and this could indeed by one of them, but there's always a potential uh-oh hiding in the bushes when you don't examine someone's motives.

Take years of the "good works" done by Bill Cosby, for example, and how that very munificence was used to defend him (first by covering things up, then later so that people actually argued that taking him down was "hurting black culture" far more than leaving him was hurting women).

Now before someone jumps down my throat hard on this, I am not saying Caitlyn Jenner is a rapist, or a criminal or anything at all. This isn't speculation or spitballing or even rumor-mongering. As far as I know Caitlyn Jenner is just a doddering old woman, who used to be a doddering old man, where the only potential moral compromises were/are the famewhoring ones we've talked about ad naseum here. I'm just saying that people thought, nay assumed, Bill Cosby was the next best thing to a Saint for DECADES, and it persisted for so long simply because society was perfectly willing to assume what they wanted to assume about Cosby and never question. We should learn a lesson from that, even if what we uncover is insincerity rather than horrible crimes.

[Snarryfan]

 

Bruce Jenner remained silent for more than a year while the media speculated about the different surgical and cosmetic treatments he was undergoing.   He remained silent and allowed all kinds of mean-spirited transphobic jokes (about what he might be up to) to proliferate unchecked.   He could have spoken out and helped to put the brakes on transphobia at a much earlier date and made the public aware of the problems transgender people face much sooner.   But he didn't.

 

I think it's incredibly unfair that someone should have to come out before they are ready just to appease mean-spirited people. Clay Aiken and Ricky Martin were the subject of mean spirited gay jokes for years before they came out. One of the goals fought for by Gay Liberationists (and trans advocates in more contemporary times) was that everyone should feel free to come out but no one should be forced to come out.*

 

*Except for people who actively engage in anti-gay discrimination, "family values" campaigns, or work for media that endorses that POV, who are also banging guys--those people deserve to be outed as hypocrites.

[howmanywords]

People like Ricky and Clay will always get a pass while anyone even remotely connected to the Kardashians will always have different expectations on them and have their motives questioned.  It really is damned if you do, damned if you dont.  When she does "girly" things or anything fun she's called shallow and vapid and doesnt take the trans-gender issue seriously but when serious issues are brought up its only being done to make her look better and she's exploitative.

[millennium]

I think it's incredibly unfair that someone should have to come out before they are ready just to appease mean-spirited people. Clay Aiken and Ricky Martin were the subject of mean spirited gay jokes for years before they came out. One of the goals fought for by Gay Liberationists (and trans advocates in more contemporary times) was that everyone should feel free to come out but no one should be forced to come out.*

 

*Except for people who actively engage in anti-gay discrimination, "family values" campaigns, or work for media that endorses that POV, who are also banging guys--those people deserve to be outed as hypocrites.

 

It was never suggested that anyone be forced to come out.

 

 

But since Jenner has appointed herself the public face of the transgender experience, let's talk a minute about how 99.9% of transgender people come out to the world.

 

They don't just one day emerge as hair, makeup and designer dress confections whispering to Annie Liebowitz "I'm ready for my close-up."   They muster the strength to go to their families, their friends and their employers while still living as members of the gender they were born into  and explain what is about to happen.   That's where the transition process truly begins, not on the cover of Vanity Fair magazine.   The world (or the microcosm that comprises their world) then witnesses the process as it unfolds in stages and gradually comes to an understanding of who the transgender person is, and always was.

 

 

Jenner could have given the world an opportunity to better grasp what being transgender is about.   No, it wouldn't have been pretty and frothy and fabulous, but it would have been realistic.    It  would have shown the world that transitioning isn't an overnight fix, that it's a difficult, empowering and frequently heartbreaking experience full of triumphs and setbacks.   Sure,  Bruce Jenner coyly allowed the paparazzi to photograph him coming and going from doctor's offices.   But he never said why.   He remained  silent, content to let the world speculate and make its cruel jokes at his own expense and that of every other transgender person who was transitioning at the time.

 

Transitioning openly and honestly in the public eye, from Bruce Jenner male to Caitlyn Jenner female, over many weeks and months, showing all the hardships, steps and sacrifice involved -- THAT would have taken courage.    I don't know how Jenner can expect to "change the world" in regard to understanding what it is to be transgender when she concealed so much of what it took to change herself.

Edited July 28, 2015 by millennium

[Watermelon]

But why should Caitlyn have had to do her transition in a way that didn't appeal to her, to make you (or anybody) consider it "realistic"?

 

Moreover, what did you want to see that would have made her transition more realistic to you?  Would you want to be in her counseling sessions? Most everyone who sees therapists on TV deems them famewhores.  Would you want to see the surgeries? The various hormones?

 

She got harassed by the public, harangued to tell the world what she wasn't ready to tell. I'd think that was very much like anyone's transition.

[Kromm]

But why should Caitlyn have had to do her transition in a way that didn't appeal to her, to make you (or anybody) consider it "realistic"?

 

Moreover, what did you want to see that would have made her transition more realistic to you?  Would you want to be in her counseling sessions? Most everyone who sees therapists on TV deems them famewhores.  Would you want to see the surgeries? The various hormones?

 

She got harassed by the public, harangued to tell the world what she wasn't ready to tell. I'd think that was very much like anyone's transition.

None of your points are untrue in the least.

But what they don't bring into the calculation is the hypocrisy angle. She's ALLOWED to be a hypocrite. Nobody can or should be able to control that but her. But similarly, people reacting don't need their reactions TO the appearance of hypocrisy legislated or suggested to them either.

For me it comes down to the public nature and form of Caitlyn's Transformation being completely and totally her choice just as much as the Transition itself is for anyone. That choice included the possibility (nay, the likelihood) that the rest of her history, her family, the choices she makes in terms of how she displays herself now, be publicly scrutinized. IMO it would condescending to engage in regular rounds of "why's she getting this said/done to her" every time she's criticized, because she's a media savvy 65 year old human being, not some naive innocent who didn't know what she was getting into.

I actually don't think she had any obligation to show the whole process. millennium is right about one thing though (not something I'm even close to prepared to say about at least 50% of his rhetoric though). IF Caitlyn HAD shown the whole process, then the "reality journey" would seem more sincere, more genuine. And that's the bottom line for me. Nobody can or does have the right to assign a path for Caitlyn Jenner's transition. But we have EVERY right to look at the journey and draw individual conclusions about how sincere or compelling we find it. Pointing out that it would have likely been MORE compelling, or seemed MORE sincere, if it had gone another way isn't unfair. Unfair is (and millennium DOES do this a lot) phrasing it like it was a REQUIREMENT. No, it's not. But Caitlyn fairly is having to deal with the consequences of a lot of what she's saying and doing seeming insincere to some viewers. Us knowing how experienced E!, that family, and even Caitlyn herself is at staging scenes ensured that, even if nothing else does. As always, what's become my old standbye--jokingly (but in a way seriously) wishing they put "this is not a documentary!" at the beginning of every episode comes into play. Viewers on some level realize this anyway though, and no doubt a more complete version of the Transition wouldn't have had that built in skepticism.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

I actually don't think she had any obligation to show the whole process. millennium is right about one thing though (not something I'm even close to prepared to say about at least 50% of his rhetoric though). IF Caitlyn HAD shown the whole process, then the "reality journey" would seem more sincere, more genuine. And that's the bottom line for me. Nobody can or does have the right to assign a path for Caitlyn Jenner's transition. But we have EVERY right to look at the journey and draw individual conclusions about how sincere or compelling we find it. Pointing out that it would have likely been MORE compelling, or seemed MORE sincere, if it had gone another way isn't unfair. Unfair is (and millennium DOES do this a lot) phrasing it like it was a REQUIREMENT.  No, it's not. But Caitlyn fairly is having to deal with the consequences of a lot of what she's saying and doing seeming insincere to some viewers. Us knowing how experienced E!, that family, and even Caitlyn herself is at staging scenes ensured that, even if nothing else does. As always, what's become my old standbye--jokingly (but in a way seriously) wishing they put "this is not a documentary!" at the beginning of every episode comes into play. Viewers on some level realize this anyway though, and no doubt a more complete version of the Transition wouldn't have had that built in skepticism.

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Kromm.   Since we're apparently parsing each others' words now, at no point did I ever state or "phrase" it was a "REQUIREMENT" to detail every step.    Instead, I lamented what a wasted opportunity it was and how it seemed to me that someone who claimed she was going to "change the world" would have been more forthcoming.

Edited July 29, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

But why should Caitlyn have had to do her transition in a way that didn't appeal to her, to make you (or anybody) consider it "realistic"?

 

Moreover, what did you want to see that would have made her transition more realistic to you?  Would you want to be in her counseling sessions? Most everyone who sees therapists on TV deems them famewhores.  Would you want to see the surgeries? The various hormones?

 

 

I think it might have given the public a better idea of the seriousness of the experience.   If the public fully understood what a transgendered person goes through to get from point A to point B (and here I am talking about someone who undergoes at least facial feminization surgery, if not full sexual reassignment surgery), the public might have a greater degree of empathy for the transgendered and would not be so quick to dismiss it as "just dressing up."   To the average person, facial feminization surgery alone looks like a horror show, never mind SRS.    Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but if the public had a greater appreciation for the sacrifices transgender people make, for the pain and hardship they endure just for the comfort of being themselves -- a basic human right most people are born with -- then maybe people would be more accepting. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by millennium

[Coffeecup]

How do we know that we won't see Caitlyn going from Point A to Point B? She might have had someone filming during the series of plastic surgeries and other treatments, with the intention of showing clips on her future reality show. Yes, I think she was planning this show for a long time, at least a year.

 

I'm still amazed that Cailtyn was able to stomp all over the world-famous  Kardashians in terms of getting media coverage. It's like the dark horse coming out of nowhere to win the Triple Crown. I can't think of anything the K girls could do to top this. Caitlyn is still as competitive as she was in 1976, and she just won again.

[Kromm]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Kromm.   Since we're apparently parsing each others' words now, at no point did I ever state or "phrase" it was a "REQUIREMENT" to detail every step.    Instead, I lamented what a wasted opportunity it was and how it seemed to me that someone who claimed she was going to "change the world" would have been more forthcoming.

You are right about a ton of things, millennium.  But (and certainly not without justification) you dislike Caitlyn Jenner enough that when you talk about things like wasted opportunities, it comes off more like sour grapes.  I sympathize, because I hate fakes too.

 

But I do believe there's more than one way to navigate what Jenner is going through.  The way Caitlyn IS doing it seems wrong to me, for reasons I've mentioned myself in posts and pages past.  But I'd be happy to see smaller signs that Caitlyn is starting to get a clue rather than conclude it's already too late for anything good to come from this. It boils my blood every time I see another shoe-shopping report, or a clearly orchestrated scene either for the paparazzi or the film crew, so I'm not hopeful.  It also presses my buttons hearing some of the "we need to do something" and other language that seems to indicate some coordinated self-boosting of her role (and then see media and posters and tweeters and everyone jump through hoops buying into it).

 

At the same time I'm not so closed off from seeing some good from this that I can't appreciate some of the baby steps where it looks like something's been done right. For example, every time Caitlyn shuts her damn mouth and uses her show to hand off the screen time to someone else with a compelling Transgender story to tell, I'll cheer. That's happened once, and lord willing it will happen again. I want to have hope it will, and even Caitlyn, fame-monger that I think she is, will deserve some praise when that happens.  Even if it could be argued that she's grabbing an association with the other person and benefiting too.

[millennium]

How does this:

 

To me it's also a kind of pandering to just accept the "ends justifies the means" SO totally that someone's motives don't matter.

 

jibe with this?

 

every time Caitlyn shuts her damn mouth and uses her show to hand off the screen time to someone else with a compelling Transgender story to tell, I'll cheer. That's happened once, and lord willing it will happen again. I want to have hope it will, and even Caitlyn, fame-monger that I think she is, will deserve some praise when that happens.  Even if it could be argued that she's grabbing an association with the other person and benefiting too.

[Kromm]

I lauded her handing over time to Kyler Prescott's mother even before either of those.

 

Also, my main rationale for the ends not justifying the means statement was about being willingly blind to people's real motivations. That's why I qualified it with a followup sentence you didn't quote, but I will:

 

There probably are plenty of times in life when the ends justify the means, and this could indeed by one of them, but there's always a potential uh-oh hiding in the bushes when you don't examine someone's motives.

 

KNOW what Caitlyn Jenner really means and intends.  Don't be willfully blind to it, because even though I don't think Cait is another Bill Cosby... do we really know ANYTHING for sure about our cultural heroes since that reveal?

 

But the mere suspicion someone has an agenda doesn't mean they can't serve a purpose that does good.  Heck, even knowing for sure they have an agenda doesn't negate the possibility. Just don't make them into untouchable Saints, a la pre-2014 Bill Cosby in your rush to praise them.  The good Cosby did for various people didn't simply disappear just because he turned out to be a sick, evil, raping pervert (a term that maybe now can come back into vogue describing people like Cosby instead of being used against people like Caitlyn Jenner).  And if we could go back in a time machine and CHOOSE between preserving that good and stopping Cosby from ever becoming famous enough to rape women (thus sacrificing the good he did), then I hope we'd all choose right and stop him. But we can't work history backwards in real life.  In real life I think it's okay to look for minor victories and just keep a skeptical eye.  That's my position on Caitlyn Jenner really. She deserves a lot of actual delivered scorn. Even more caution and skepticism. But the good that occurs in the wake of the situation should be acknowledged too--as long as we at least attempt to meter how much false credit Caitlyn actually gets. If Caitlyn actually allows other people to use her platform and steps back a bit at those points?  I'm giving credit for some common sense and sense of proportion if for nothing else. That's not removing the skeptical eye on Caitlyn--at least until she proves a hell of a lot more if she really wants to be positioned as a Transgender "leader". And if she DOESN'T want or expect that?  Then she needs to stop acting like it IS what she wants.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

That's not removing the skeptical eye on Caitlyn--at least until she proves a hell of a lot more if she really wants to be positioned as a Transgender "leader". And if she DOESN'T want or expect that?  Then she needs to stop acting like it IS what she wants.

 

I think Coffeecup nailed the kind of leader Jenner really wants to be:

 

 

I'm still amazed that Cailtyn was able to stomp all over the world-famous  Kardashians in terms of getting media coverage. It's like the dark horse coming out of nowhere to win the Triple Crown. I can't think of anything the K girls could do to top this. Caitlyn is still as competitive as she was in 1976, and she just won again.

[Kromm]

True. I think a few pages back I smart-assed about how Bruce, and now Caitlyn, really likes to win.  This is a manifestation of that.  People wonder why Kanye and Kim might be desperate to be on Caitlyn's new show.  This is why.  Caitlyn is the one being taken seriously now.  Getting the mainstream non-TMZ-press as WELL as the paparazzi. The think pieces and editorials. And the societal pressure to sanctify her.  What can the stupid K-girls do to compete with that? Not much, other than ride the wave.

[Coffeecup]

True. I think a few pages back I smart-assed about how Bruce, and now Caitlyn, really likes to win.  This is a manifestation of that.  People wonder why Kanye and Kim might be desperate to be on Caitlyn's new show.  This is why.  Caitlyn is the one being taken seriously now.  Getting the mainstream non-TMZ-press as WELL as the paparazzi. The think pieces and editorials. And the societal pressure to sanctify her.  What can the stupid K-girls do to compete with that? Not much, other than ride the wave.

Yep. I can't think of anything useful to society the K girls have done, except that Kim and Khloe have/had interracial marriages. That may have helped reduce prejudice against such unions. However, interracial relationships are old news --  they are pretty widely accepted now. Transgender is a relatively fresh, hot and controversial issue.

[bichonblitz]

I thought it hilarious how Kanye, directly after meeting Cait for the first time seized the opportunity to pull off one of his shoes and start his sales pitch on the perfect design of his latest creation. And all Kim could come up with was how skinny Cait is and how her wardrobe has improved since the first time she critiqued it. The man and his wife have no shame. They didn't give a single shit about meeting Cait. They are disgusting. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by bichonblitz

[iwasish]

I thought it hilarious how Kanye, directly after meeting Cait for the first time seized the opportunity to pull off one of his shoes and start his sales pitch on the perfect design of his latest creation. And all Kim could come up with was how skinny Cait is and how her wardrobe has improved since the first time she critiqued it. The man and his wife have no shame. They didn't give a single shit about meeting Cait. They are disgusting.

All Kimmy's angst over poor unappreciated mommy and how she cries all day long and how sad it is and how much she does for all of them and they should all be there for her... all forgotten in her opportunity to be on camera and looking all progressive and open minded, and making note of everything to run back to mommy and fill her in on who was there and what they said. And did you ever see a more awkward embrace than Caitlyn and Kanye? Even Scott was more sincere.

[millennium]

True. I think a few pages back I smart-assed about how Bruce, and now Caitlyn, really likes to win.  This is a manifestation of that.  People wonder why Kanye and Kim might be desperate to be on Caitlyn's new show.  This is why.  Caitlyn is the one being taken seriously now.  Getting the mainstream non-TMZ-press as WELL as the paparazzi. The think pieces and editorials. And the societal pressure to sanctify her.  What can the stupid K-girls do to compete with that? Not much, other than ride the wave.

 

Yep. I can't think of anything useful to society the K girls have done, except that Kim and Khloe have/had interracial marriages. That may have helped reduce prejudice against such unions. However, interracial relationships are old news --  they are pretty widely accepted now. Transgender is a relatively fresh, hot and controversial issue.

 

The impression I'm getting is that transgender is being used as a device to attract attention, get press and guarantee publicity and ratings, rather than out of any true concern for the countless souls who have to deal with it on a lifelong basis. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by millennium

[OnceSane]

If you have made your point 3 or 4 times (or more), maybe it is time to move on.

[HumblePi]

I had to record this and watch it when nobody was home. I didn't want to hear the complaints "you aren't really going to watch that, are you?".  I was sorry I watched because I found there was only one person that wasn't pretending and play acting for the cameras and that was Bruce Jenner's mother. She's 88 years old and is obviously struggling with this transition of her son into a woman. She loves Caitlyn, that won't change. But almost brought tears to my eyes when she tearfully tried expressing to Caitlyn how very difficult this has been for her to accept.

 

I can't even imagine how they will fill 7 more episodes of this documentary series or why on earth would anyone want to see more of the same.

 

I'm compelled to edit in order to add my two-cents about Caitlyn's appearance and choice of wardrobe. I think she makes a skinny, not especially attractive, woman with bad posture. She's had way too much plastic surgery and looks unnatural. One eye is frozen and takes longer to blink than the other eye because of a bad Botox injection. Her legs are too skinny for some of the dresses she wears which by the way, are pretty damned ugly. So there, done now.

 

No wait, wasn't done quite yet. One more thing, that laugh. What is UP with that laugh. Bruce had it, and Caitlyn should have done something to change it. It's fake and so annoying.

Edited July 31, 2015 by HumblePi

[Kromm]

I had to record this and watch it when nobody was home. I didn't want to hear the complaints "you aren't really going to watch that, are you?".  I was sorry I watched because I found there was only one person that wasn't pretending and play acting for the cameras and that was Bruce Jenner's mother. She's 88 years old and is obviously struggling with this transition of her son into a woman. She loves Caitlyn, that won't change. But almost brought tears to my eyes when she tearfully tried expressing to Caitlyn how very difficult this has been for her to accept.

 

I can't even imagine how they will fill 7 more episodes of this documentary series or why on earth would anyone want to see more of the same.

 

I'm compelled to edit in order to add my two-cents about Caitlyn's appearance and choice of wardrobe. I think she makes a skinny, not especially attractive, woman with bad posture. She's had way too much plastic surgery and looks unnatural. One eye is frozen and takes longer to blink than the other eye because of a bad Botox injection. Her legs are too skinny for some of the dresses she wears which by the way, are pretty damned ugly. So there, done now.

 

No wait, wasn't done quite yet. One more thing, that laugh. What is UP with that laugh. Bruce had it, and Caitlyn should have done something to change it. It's fake and so annoying.

Mostly on the mark, IMO. I'm a bit less inclined to snark on her appearance (I'll save that for talking about Kim and Kris), and honestly I don't think it's incumbent on Caitlyn to do something like alter a laugh (even if it's annoying), but the whole aura of things being done for the camera is not something I can just get past either.  There's a real disconnect too, with a lot of viewers that just analyze and talk about what we're seeing as if it's real. Which is their right to do so, but it makes it difficult for me to know what to say other than the (repeated) refrains about "are we sure that really happened or was it just set-up for us to see?".

 

But as you say, even in the mountain of fake, sometimes you find a nugget of real. I know people in that age range where you can't even explain to them in intelligible (to them) terms what a "reality show" really is, and so if Esther Jenner is even somewhat like that, I can see them just leading her into a situation (which they still in some sense set up for the camera) but then just let her go and react honestly.

 

Esther Jenner hasn't always been in her late 80s though. Caitlyn had plenty of time to tell her decades ago and didn't. Maybe that actually makes me feel better about things however, not worse, because at least that years long hesitation to tell Mom seems like a really legit honest reaction from Caitlyn that echoes decisions made by so many others.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

Mostly on the mark, IMO. I'm a bit less inclined to snark on her appearance (I'll save that for talking about Kim and Kris), and honestly I don't think it's incumbent on Caitlyn to do something like alter a laugh (even if it's annoying), but the whole aura of things being done for the camera is not something I can just get past either.  There's a real disconnect too, with a lot of viewers that just analyze and talk about what we're seeing as if it's real. Which is their right to do so, but it makes it difficult for me to know what to say other than the (repeated) refrains about "are we sure that really happened or was it just set-up for us to see?".

 

But as you say, even in the mountain of fake, sometimes you find a nugget of real. I know people in that age range where you can't even explain to them in intelligible (to them) terms what a "reality show" really is, and so if Esther Jenner is even somewhat like that, I can see them just leading her into a situation (which they still in some sense set up for the camera) but then just let her go and react honestly.

 

Esther Jenner hasn't always been in her late 80s though. Caitlyn had plenty of time to tell her decades ago and didn't. Maybe that actually makes me feel better about things however, not worse, because at least that years long hesitation to tell Mom seems like a really legit honest reaction from Caitlyn that echoes decisions made by so many others.

 

Has any backstory of Esther Jenner's participation been furnished?   I'm wondering whether she volunteered to be on the show or was cajoled into doing it.

 

I haven't watched the show, but based on HumblePi's description I wonder if the experience would have been less stressful for Mrs. Jenner if the scene had unfolded in private rather than on worldwide television, with lights and cameras focused on her.   I would think that when dealing with a person of such advanced age one would want to  tread as lightly as possible.   Was the audience's interest given a greater priority than Mrs. Jenner's welfare? 

[Kromm]

I haven't watched the show, but based on HumblePi's description I wonder if the experience would have been less stressful for Mrs. Jenner if the scene had unfolded in private rather than on worldwide television, with lights and cameras focused on her.   I would think that when dealing with a person of such advanced age one would want to  tread as lightly as possible.   Was the audience's interest given a greater priority than Mrs. Jenner's welfare? 

Well come on, millenium!  It's not like revealing what the "new" Caitlyn looks like to her is the same thing as notifying Esther at an earlier time what her then-to-her son planned to eventually do. This wasn't all laid out to Esther in a single day.

 

That's not to say that there isn't a good argument that her reactions might have been better off private, but I don't think her health was exactly at risk, if that's what you mean by "welfare".  Well other than a small risk of heat exhaustion from hot TV lights to shoot the scene. I'd also add "fatigue from possible repetition of the scene", except I doubt they did that with her.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Kromm

[millennium]

Well come on, millenium!  It's not like revealing what the "new" Caitlyn looks like to her is the same thing as notifying Esther at an earlier time what her then-to-her son planned to eventually do. This wasn't all laid out to Esther in a single day.

 

That's not to say that there isn't a good argument that her reactions might have been better off private, but I don't think her health was exactly at risk, if that's what you mean by "welfare".  Well other than a small risk of heat exhaustion from hot TV lights to shoot the scene. I'd also add "fatigue from possible repetition of the scene", except I doubt they did that with her.

 

Meeting a fully-transitioned transgender person you've always known as someone else can be a jolt for a person of any age, especially when the transgender person is a family member with whom one has a deep, lifelong attachment.   It has often been said that the completion of the transition can leave other family members feeling like the brother/father/husband/son they knew has died (I believe Kris Jenner expressed this very sentiment).   I didn't watch, so the only impression I can form about Esther Jenner's health, strength, etc. is based on people of similar age known to me personally -- and they're kind of frail.   Mrs. Jenner may have had to process the shock of seeing her former son as Caitlyn for the first time, possibly accompanied by overwhelming feelings of loss -- not to mention the knowledge that the whole world was hanging on her reaction -- all at once.  That's why I wondered if the private approach might have been better way to go.   .

Edited July 31, 2015 by millennium

[iwasish]

Caitlyn had a strained distant relationship with Esther.

Perhaps some of Esther's seeming quick acceptance of the transition, is her way of grasping at what is most likely the last chance to be close to her child and grandkids. At 88 her time is limited, no doubt she loves all her kids, but Caitlyn has kept her at arms length for years. I don't know if Caitlyn intends to change that, her seeming relief at moms departure says to me she doesn't, but Esther will leave at least feeling that there's a future relationship and that she is loved.

[Stella MD]

Given that everything on these shows is scripted, posed, and reshot from multiple angles, I'm not buying that this was truly Esther and Caitlyn's first visit anyway.

[Fostersmom]

Yeah, it seemed like Caitlyn wasted no time in pushing Esther out the door as Kim was leaving. Didn't Kris at one point say Bruce barely had seen his mom over the entire course of their marriage? Maybe Caitlyn will have a better relationship with her now that she's free to be her real self, but honestly, she's not exactly looking like she's rebuilding any of the personal relationships with her family, mom or kids. And I didn't even know there was a second sister.

[Artsda]

I was surprised at a second sister too.

 

I do also think this Caitlyn/Esther realtionship seems sudden compared to the lack of relationship they talked about having on KUWTK. Kris did comment on Bruce not having a relationship with Esther, Kylie and Kendall probably barely know her. Just like with the older 4 kids, it seems to not be rebuilding and just going into more I'm a new person let's insta-connect. May be it'll work, may be not but when everything settles, the cameras are off I do wonder if it'll still be like that.

 

I expect Caitlyn to still be closer and more involved with the K's side of her family. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Artsda

[jnymph]

I'd like to give Esther Jenner credit.  Nobody can force her at gunpoint to do a reality show. She's had 88 years of experience on this earth and is clearly a healthy strong woman capable of making her own decisions.  In my eyes, to assume otherwise, is age discrimination.