NFL Thread

[Magog]

Since the Chiefs won the game yesterday (😒), which player from them are we going to have suffer though wanting to go to Disney World? That commercial isn't worth a damn anymore & I wish they would stop it. Yet for some reason, one of them having to do a Parade at Disney World today is still newsworthy. 

In hopefully better news, here is next years Super Bowl (59) logo.

Sports Logos - Super Bowl LIX (59) Logo

Edited February 12 by Magog

[mojoween]

The 49ers coming out and admitting that they, too, did not know the overtime rules reflects poorly on the coaching staff.

[Crashcourse]

I didn't even watch the game, just tuned in to see the halftime show (Usher!🥰) and checked the score online.  Too bad the fucking Chief won, but at least I didn't have to see their celebration.

[Carey]

I can see them "not knowing" the rules. Or a rules change since this was the 26th playoff game since it was updated. Still a moot point since they took points. Plus, they blew it in regulation

[DoctorAtomic]

The ref did say what the rules were before the coin flip.

[ebk57]

First Super Bowl I remember?  SB III.

I still don't want to talk about it.

[Black Knight]

It's just so different from the Chiefs, who discussed this extensively and prepared for it and were very clear on what to do if the game went into OT and which option to choose if they won the coin toss and so forth. 

And of course, they knew the correct thing to do if they had won the coin toss, which would be to kick the ball. They explained exactly why, and Shanahan has come out with his own explanation for why he chose the way he did, and the contrast between the two explanations is just so remarkable and really showcases what might be Shanahan's biggest problem in these big games, which is no killer instinct. He plays not to lose and he doesn't seem to get that other teams play to win.

He really thought that it was a good idea to set things up to (try to) win on the third possession? What a fool. That's a loser's mentality. The Chiefs were going to do whatever it took to win on the second possession, which is why they wanted to have it. First, they get the chance to win it on the first possession via defensive TD, but if not, they get the chance to win it on the second possession, knowing exactly what it is that they need. They have the freedom to play with a four-down mentality instead of three - and giving Mahomes four downs is a dumb-ass thing in itself - and they can win. If the Niners get a FG, then the Chiefs know to get a TD. If the Niners get a TD, the Chiefs know to get a TD and then a 2-point conversion. The game was never, ever getting to that third possession, Shanny.

He will never win the big one until he learns to stop playing not to lose, and starts playing to win.

[Carey]

The only chance Shanahan had in OT was to onside kick (after a successful 2-point conversion to top off a TD)

[Carey]

Well it took a long time. North of a quarter century, a program that held the record in terms of the viewership record aired on CBS (Dallas, M.A.S.H., and Super Bowl XLIV). That ended in 2011. Nearly a decade and a half later, CBS regains that spot.

[Lamb18]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:12 AM, Raja said:

Super Bowl IV. Kansas City beats Minnesota in the last game as the AFL goes 2-2  into the merger  with a win.

That's the first one I remember. My dad probably watched the earlier ones but I was oblivious to football then.

[Raja]

33 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

That's the first one I remember. My dad probably watched the earlier ones but I was oblivious to football then.

There's a story I read back then about a reserve Green Bay receiver Max McGee   at the end of his career being an hero of the first Super Bowl. But to the point they were giving away tickets and the game wasn't a big draw for "real" NFL fans. It suggests to me that it took Joe Namath and the Jets to really make the spectacle take off.

[JTMacc99]

21 hours ago, mojoween said:

Patrick Mahomes getting labeled as not being able to beat the Patriots when Brady was there is annoying, because, and I know this is only one game, the defense was entirely responsible for that one loss at Arrowhead.  Brady was intercepted!  And it was called back!  Nothing to do with Patrick!

I do understand that saying stuff like this is 100% what we do as sports fans. I enjoy comparing one guy or one team or one era to another as much (if not more than) anybody.

So I'll happily stick my nose into this conversation.

• With his third Super Bowl ring by the age of 28, it is totally fair to include Mahomes in any conversation about where he belongs in the greatest QB list. 
• Tom Brady does NOT need anybody defending him just because a couple people are thinking that what Mahomes has accomplished so far is more impressive than what Brady had done by the similar point in his career. 
  • FWIW, Mahomes has absolutely been the best QB through his first 7 seasons compared to anybody. Three rings. He's also managed to win two of those rings carrying a team with flaws. Last year the Chiefs were 16th in scoring defense (lots of young players.) This year they were 17th in scoring offense (god-awful WRs.)  Brady, for example, NEVER had a team outside of the top 10 in anything.
  • There are only what, like 4 other guys who have 3 rings? It's a big deal.
  • But it's only 7 years so far for Mahomes. He needs to put another 7 in the books before it's even close to fair to compare his body of work to the other guys on the all time list.
• Singling out the loss to Tampa in that Super Bowl is just somebody trying to take a single data point and use it as a way to "prove" something.
  • Brady himself just the other day said something along the lines of "Patrick ran for like 500 yards in that game, from sideline to sideline." Acknowledging that the Bucs had a hell of a pass rush, and also that the Chiefs OL was at that point using the NY Giants technique of "Anybody who has a jersey with a sixty or seventy number on it needs to report to the OL coach for duty this week."
  • Brady also had his worst Super Bowls when teams got pressure, especially up the middle, on him. Doesn't matter how great you are when you're running for your life more often than not.

[mojoween]

To be honest, my bellyaching was about NE vs. KC.  I had completely forgotten that the team the Bucs beat was the Chiefs.  But I appreciate your thorough comparison!

[Carey]

Well put.  As much as people dislike Tom Brady, he does say the right things.  It might come off a cheesy but he knows when to be correct in public, something I can't say about Travis Kelce.

I knew that mojoween was talking about that 2018 AFC Title Game.  A total painful loss.  What's worse is that the Mahomes and Reid they've become might have gone for the win instead of taking points to achieve a tie.  The current rules in OT were not in place at that point, and they were at home.

The other loss was explained by JTMacc99.  Can't win against a hot team that had Week 13 & played in their home stadium.  They did win 3 road playoff games.  The 4th team to do that before winning another title.  Not easy to win when the face of the franchise is not 100% and both tackles were MIA.

The thing that's vexatious for me is the people that site the 2-0 Brady over Mahomes stat try to make excuses of their own when it comes to their losses against Baltimore (both at home).  It's okay to lose because you were without a key player but it's not okay if someone else loses without their key player or players.  I can't remember what their excuse was against New York, if any

[Crashcourse]

Usher got married right after the Super Bowl! 

https://people.com/usher-marries-longtime-girlfriend-jennifer-goicoechea-las-vegas-wedding-exclusive-8575794

[Carey]

What does it take for 800 people to lose their jobs?  Just have super-record breaking numbers overall in terms of ratings & viewership.

[bmasters9]

On 2/12/2024 at 10:01 AM, twoods said:

 He went for it on fourth down instead of a FG and it paid off with a TD.

John Riggins did the same in XVII for Washington, except that that one was in lieu of a punt.

[mojoween]

If dynasties were going to be assigned to the Super Bowl era would it be

Sixties Packers
Seventies Steelers
Eighties Niners
Nineties Cowboys

And then do the Patriots get the Oughts *and* the Tens?  And now the Chiefs already get the Twenties?

[Carey]

As unpopular as it is, the Patriots are probably that team that gets the nod in terms of the 2000s & 2010s.  Pittsburgh had a chance to place an asterisk on New England (and the Steelers) had they repeated for the 3rd time since the Merger.  Both would've had 3 titles in the decade.  I'd had still given the nod to the Pats.  Of course, there was discussion for Indianapolis to get it (over the Steelers).  Probably needed to win Super Bowl XLIV for a discussion to even take place.

It looked like it could've been Seattle or even Baltimore during the 2014 season, but...

Unless someone else makes a run in the second half of the 2020s, it's Kansas City's honor to lose.  Still I think the Chiefs have it.  They did start late in the 2010s.  For what it's worth, New England's wins were early in their decade & Dallas as well (for the most part).  Denver had some decent success late in the 90s but they sorta get snubbed.  They were very good for a quarter dozen years, so no debate to be honest.

Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Green Bay were all dominant throughout their entire decade of winning the biggest game & games.

Finally, I sorta disagree with calling the Patriots Dynasty as a 20-year dynasty.  While the backlash of saying so is there, such is life.  I'll can agree with saying it was 20 years of winning, but a 20-year dynasty shouldn't include a decade-long drought.

I know I've "dissed" New England for their pair of losses, both to the Giants & Ravens.  However it happened, just like winning close against Rams, Carolina, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Atlanta.  Lebron, MJ, Tiger, and currently Patrick never let other greats win.  Flacco & Manning won (during that dead period).  Therefore, 2 dynasties for the Pats is the call, not a 20-year dynasty

[bluegirl147]

The Chiefs look to keep winning SBs as long as Patrick Mahomes is under center.  Will he eventually end up like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and leave and win a SB with a new team?

[Salacious Kitty]

This is terrible.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39525845/multiple-people-hurt-shooting-chiefs-victory-parade

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

The Chiefs look to keep winning SBs as long as Patrick Mahomes is under center.  Will he eventually end up like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and leave and win a SB with a new team?

Mahomes' game depends more on his legs. I don't know if he can have the same success as he ages 

[Carey]

We'll see.  It also helped Peyton & Tom that they had great leaders as head coach in Tony Dungy & Bill Belichick.  Patrick has Andy Reid, but who knows when he'll leave.

Fortunately Mahomes isn't like Lamar Jackson where the latter is screwed (rather his team) if he can't run.  The deep ball & smarts are there.  It depends on the other threats that Patrick's team has (coaching, defense, run game).  Finally as the prediction of completing another set of years worth a trip to Canton on its own is favorable

[Irlandesa]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:55 AM, Carey said:

The defense are who they are.  That was destined to happen.  Green Bay & Detroit had their way, but the defenses of both of those teams, as road teams with less rest, fell short.  Either team could've made it, but neither would've had a chance against Kansas City.  Maybe Detroit since Goff is as great against Mahomes as Tom Brady

I think the Packers could have potentially beat KC as well.  Joe Berry's defenses might let future benched QBs put up massive numbers on them but they've done well against Mahomes in the two times they played him (2021 and this year).  And GB is the only team to have put up more than 24 points on KC's defense this season. 

All hypothetical match ups since they couldn't get it done against the 49ers but I had a feeling SF didn't have it in them this year.

On 2/12/2024 at 3:28 PM, mojoween said:

The 49ers coming out and admitting that they, too, did not know the overtime rules reflects poorly on the coaching staff.

Yes.  But I think the players didn't know because it didn't feel like the coaches felt solid about the rules. It clearly wasn't a priority of the game plan.

[Calvada]

I am old.  The first Super Bowls I remember are the first two, or as we called each in our home, the Packer game.  LOL!  Just another game to play, since at that time for Packers fans the real championships were the wins over the Cowboys that got them into the games vs. the AFL.  Ok, fine, let's play one more and take it to the Chiefs and the Raiders, that was the attitude for us.  Then Lombardi stepped down as coach, the majority of the team suddenly showed their age, and almost 30 years of darkness ensued.  

 

[mojoween]

The Twitter Army is rising UP for Steve Wilks.  And I do not blame them.

[twoods]

That was one firing I wasn’t expecting. Hopefully some other team scoops him up. You tie his hands up by making him use the same system as the previous coordinators, then use him as the scapegoat. The defense prevented the Chiefs from scoring a ton of points, but unfortunately their offense crapped out and didn’t play to their potential IMO. 

Edited February 15 by twoods

[Carey]

A lot of people often want a coach fired, and many of those have done a lot more than Steve Wilks in a bad way to get fired.  However, they always stick around, and at least most of them continue to wreck the franchise that they're on.

It's too bad that this was one of those situations where people were calling for his job, but then San Francisco listened.  So the Niners can forget about being a decent franchise again.  Back to being more pathetic than Dallas.

To be fair, the 49ers defense wasn't that great, against Green Bay & Detroit.  So it wasn't just the one game IMO that determined Steve's fate.  The problem is he just got there, so I have to pay attention to see if there's anything else.  But I'm not joking about the 49ers going back to being more pathetic than the Cowboys if they don't address their QB situation (including getting someone else in there as a backup or punting Brock Purdy to nowhere)

[Kip Hackman]

[Carey]

To be fair, the Patriots Dynasty is the greatest since Day One.  Some would say the best in sports.  I can respect that while agreeing to disagree.  Makes for a nice debate.  Or could make for a good debate.

Basically it's a case of what comes around, goes around.  Until proven otherwise, I don't think Kansas City will top what New England did.  They could; maybe not 20 years of winning, but they could accomplish more in less time.  Not sure they'll be able to win 12 consecutive division titles or hold it every second within a calendar decade, but they might not need to (before another Lombardi).  That was proven this past postseason.  It'll be tough with Harbaugh in the division.  Still as long as KC gets in, if the right people are there, they could still succeed.

Anyway, what the Patriots community is going through is similar to what the Steelers, 49ers, and Cowboys went through.  Tough to see someone rolling when you're not but did in the past

[JTMacc99]

22 hours ago, Carey said:

To be fair, the Patriots Dynasty is the greatest since Day One.  Some would say the best in sports.  I can respect that while agreeing to disagree.  Makes for a nice debate.  Or could make for a good debate.

The Packers had the short run winning 5 of 7 from 1961-1967, and the Niners won 5 of 14 from 1981-1994 and just like Patriots, were a great team for most of that run.  But yeah, the Patriots with their 6 wins and the LONG period of being excellent stands out as the most impressive run by a team in the NFL.

However that run doesn't stand up the runs that the Yankees (twice) and the Canadiens made in their sports with regard to gathering championships. Having said that, neither of those sports had the competitive balance rules that the Patriots had to deal with, which does make their run more unlikely. 

The Yankees won 7 of 9 championships from 1936-1943. Then they won 9 of 14 from 1949-1962.

The Montreal Canadiens had a few runs, but the big one was winning 10 of 15 from 1965-1979.

I'm sure there is a basketball one as well, but I don't care about the NBA.

 

[DrSpaceman73]

3 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

The Packers had the short run winning 5 of 7 from 1961-1967, and the Niners won 5 of 14 from 1981-1994 and just like Patriots, were a great team for most of that run.  But yeah, the Patriots with their 6 wins and the LONG period of being excellent stands out as the most impressive run by a team in the NFL.

However that run doesn't stand up the runs that the Yankees (twice) and the Canadiens made in their sports with regard to gathering championships. Having said that, neither of those sports had the competitive balance rules that the Patriots had to deal with, which does make their run more unlikely. 

The Yankees won 7 of 9 championships from 1936-1943. Then they won 9 of 14 from 1949-1962.

The Montreal Canadiens had a few runs, but the big one was winning 10 of 15 from 1965-1979.

I'm sure there is a basketball one as well, but I don't care about the NBA.

 

Celtics won 11 in 13 years. 

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

But yeah, the Patriots with their 6 wins and the LONG period of being excellent stands out as the most impressive run by a team in the NFL.

For me that run is less impressive because of the things they were accused of doing to keep that run going. They were caught more than once doing shady things. 

[DrSpaceman73]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:43 PM, Carey said:

We'll see.  It also helped Peyton & Tom that they had great leaders as head coach in Tony Dungy & Bill Belichick.  Patrick has Andy Reid, but who knows when he'll leave.

Fortunately Mahomes isn't like Lamar Jackson where the latter is screwed (rather his team) if he can't run.  The deep ball & smarts are there.  It depends on the other threats that Patrick's team has (coaching, defense, run game).  Finally as the prediction of completing another set of years worth a trip to Canton on its own is favorable

Manning went to 4 superbowls with 4 different coaches. And won division titles with 5 different coaches. 

Dungy was only in indy like 6 or 7 years. 

[Carey]

9 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Manning went to 4 superbowls with 4 different coaches. And won division titles with 5 different coaches. 

Dungy was only in indy like 6 or 7 years. 

All facts.  However, Manning didn't do too much without Dungy.  Not many big wins.  No playoff wins until Tony got there.  Three of his league MVPs took place between 2002-2009.  The 4th one took place with pretty much the same team.

Peyton's Denver career was okay.  One & done twice, nearly shutout in Super Bowl 48 (probably the closest someone has been shutout in the most important game along with the 2018 Rams).  Then with his fifth & final coach, while Peyton did win his second title, the Broncos won in spite of the 5-Time League MVP.

15 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

21 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

But yeah, the Patriots with their 6 wins and the LONG period of being excellent stands out as the most impressive run by a team in the NFL.

For me that run is less impressive because of the things they were accused of doing to keep that run going. They were caught more than once doing shady things. 

While I'm not pleased about it myself, Pittsburgh (and everybody else) had a chance to adjust to whatever New England was doing, but they didn't do it.

Other than questionable stuff, the reason New England is tops is due to the fact there's free agency as well as more teams in their sport & league than whatever other teams have had in the past.  Pretty much why I'd put (or agree to put) Duke over UCLA as the best dynasty or a school that accomplished more than UCLA and even Kentucky over a big picture.  Certainly the head coach

[JTMacc99]

Yeah, but Peyton played 13 seasons in Indianapolis with really on 4 of them with a good defense. Two of his four Denver seasons had good defenses.

Over his 17 seasons, his defenses averaged around 15th in the league (both points and yards). 16th overall with the Colts and around 9th during the fours Denver seasons.

I imagine that if I did this exercise for Marino, it would probably look similar.

I did, however, do the exercise for the Giants and Steelers from 2005-2018. As was no surprise to me, Eli got a grand total of TWO seasons with a top ten defense, 2008 and 2016. His average defense ranked 19th in NFL during his 14 full seasons. (So anybody who says that Eli rode his defenses to his successes needs to stop expressing opinions that are not at all supported by facts.) 

Ben during that same 14 year period had an average defense of 8th overall. I'm not going to do Brady, but he's probably the only QB who got better defenses than this.

In the 8 years from 2005-2012, the Steelers were a top five (mostly top two) defense 6 times. Their average defensive ranking was 4th in the NFL.  

[DrSpaceman73]

From 2003 to 2019 pats had a top 10 d every year but two : 2005 and 2011.  They were 15th and 17th those years , so average. 

[JTMacc99]

Okay, curiosity got the best of me, so I looked at Brady's 21 seasons (not counting rookie year and 2008 when he didn't play.)

His AVERAGE defense in 21 years was 7th in the NFL for points allowed.  Only four times in his entire career did he play for a team that was ranked outside of the top 10 for points allowed:

• 2002 - 17th
• 2005 - 17th
• 2011 - 15th
• 2022 - 13th

For comparison, Peyton had 8 of 17 years with a top ten ranked defense.

Eil had a total of 2 of 14.  He had only 4 seasons in his entire career with a defense that finished better than Brady's two worst ranked (17th) seasons.

• 2005 - 14th
• 2008 - 5th
• 2012 - 12th
• 2016 - 2nd

 

 

3 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

From 2003 to 2019 pats had a top 10 d every year but two : 2005 and 2011.  They were 15th and 17th those years , so average. 

Here's how Brady's teams finished ranked for points allowed:

 

[bluegirl147]

14 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

(So anybody who says that Eli rode his defenses to his successes needs to stop expressing opinions that are not at all supported by facts.) 

Eli played well when he really needed to. I never thought of him as an elite QB but I liked him. He was scrappy and could pull wins out of the jaws of defeat.

22 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

In the 8 years from 2005-2012, the Steelers were a top five (mostly top two) defense 6 times. Their average defensive ranking was 4th in the NFL.

Those were the years Dick LeBeau was their defensive coordinator.  I still miss him.

[JTMacc99]

1 minute ago, bluegirl147 said:

Those were the years Dick LeBeau was their defensive coordinator.  I still miss him.

Look how good the Steelers were during that run!

And then because us Giants fans are aware of this, but others are not, here's the garbage that my team churned out on defense for that same period:

[bluegirl147]

@JTMacc99 they always say defense wins championships so I have two questions which team had the lowest ranked defense and won a SB and which team had the lowest ranked offense and won a SB.  I'm curious if the team with the terrible offense had a great defense and vice versa.

[DrSpaceman73]

9 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

@JTMacc99 they always say defense wins championships so I have two questions which team had the lowest ranked defense and won a SB and which team had the lowest ranked offense and won a SB.  I'm curious if the team with the terrible offense had a great defense and vice versa.

I never would have guessed this but the 2008 steelers were 20th ranked offense. Lowest one. Defense was #1

Second worst Denver in 2015. 19th rated. 4th rated d

 

 

[DrSpaceman73]

Lowest rated d

25th the 2011 giants. 9th ranked offense

Next mannings first supetbowl win. 23rd ranked. 4th in offense. 

Interestingly the giants 2007 team was probably worst combined. 14th offense and 17th D. 

[mojoween]

The first time ever in my life I heard the name Matthew Slater was yesterday.

[JTMacc99]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:08 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

Interestingly the giants 2007 team was probably worst combined. 14th offense and 17th D.

At least the 2007 team was getting its act together at the end of that year. They did give up 38 points to the Patriots in the last game of the regular season, but Spagnolo got them all rowing in the same direction once the playoffs started. Then they were terrific in 2008, and the team in general was the best one under Coughlin right up until Plaxico shot himself. 

Spagnolo left after 2008, and I think we can see that they never really replaced what he brought to the table. 

16 hours ago, mojoween said:

The first time ever in my life I heard the name Matthew Slater was yesterday.

Right?  And yet he'll probably go to the HoF as a uniquely awesome special teams player. I heard one ex teammate on the radio yesterday say that when he got to the Patriots, he couldn't believe that other teams were TRIPLE teaming Slater on their return team units. Like, that was crazy.  LOL

[Carey]

If Slater gets into Canton?  TBH, Baseball writers voting NOBODY into Cooperstown within a calendar year would be a better look

[bmasters9]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:10 AM, bluegirl147 said:

For me that run is less impressive because of the things they were accused of doing to keep that run going. They were caught more than once doing shady things. 

 

This is why Joe Montana's Niners are my true definition of a dynasty-- they may have totally creamed a couple of the teams they played, but at least it wasn't by deflating any footballs.

[Carey]

It probably helped that they got to face Cincinnati in half of those games

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, Carey said:

It probably helped that they got to face Cincinnati in half of those games

Weren't the Cincy Super Bowls close games? Sorry, too lazy to look it up. 😀

[Carey]

49 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Weren't the Cincy Super Bowls close games? Sorry, too lazy to look it up. 😀

In terms of laziness, that makes 2 of us.  I believe the second game was a better matchup compared to the first one.

To defend the point from bmasters9 as it relates to dynasties, I think an argument is there based on the competition between New England & San Francisco in the big game.  Tom Brady outdueled people like McNaab & Russ.  Of course, he went opposite Warner & Ryan with the latter the MVP winner.  Meanwhile, Joe won opposite a QB that either won the league MVP or was Canton bound.  Without looking, I believe Anderson, Marino, Esasion, and Elway all won the MVP, with 3 of the 4 being the actual winner prior to the Super Bowl that the Niners won.

Anyway, the scoring margin in games featuring Cincinnati wasn't 45