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S12.E16: Finale Part 1: Top 4 Perform


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And of those two, I suspect that Nigel would really like to see Jaja take the prize if only to provide an affirmation that the street vs stage format change was justified.  I would disagree and still favor the old format.  Since the ratings were so low this season, you have to wonder if more tinkering will be in order.

 

I actually think that Hailee would also be the best one to be a background dancer for JLo.  But yes, Nigel wants either Gaby or Jaja to win. 

 

 

 

Am I the only one who heard Nigel claim that he hoped Gabby wins right after her tap duet with Zach? Also, blaming Jaja for poor choreography doesn't lead one to think that Nigel is pulling for that contestant to win. 

.........I'll say again that Hailee will be a more successful professional dancer than any of the other finalists.  Her world is about to explode open.

 

 

I don't know if Hailee is trained in tap but....to be a dancer on Broadway, you have to be trained in tap.

 

Edited by luvthepros

 

 

I don't know if Hailee is trained in tap but....to be a dancer on Broadway, you have to be trained in tap.

 

From an interview with Hailee early in the season:

Q - Do you have any formal training?

A - Yes, I have been trained in Jazz, Ballet, Hip Hop, Lyrical, Contemporary, Tap and Ballroom. I have even taken a couple of Popping and Waacking classes.

And of those two, I suspect that Nigel would really like to see Jaja take the prize if only to provide an affirmation that the street vs stage format change was justified. I would disagree and still favor the old format. Since the ratings were so low this season, you have to wonder if more tinkering will be in order.

Was it though?

I mean it's funny. They do this to take more street than usual. But how many of the ones that make it to the top 20 are even actually 'street'? Didn't one girl who had tried out as jazz try out this year as hip hop? It's a popular and fun dance style many people. Even contemporary or jazz people do. If you're a dancer you're a dancer. Fukshun earned what he got. But if you ask me cyrus was strung along week to week. He never did any other styles well.

To really do street vs stage they'd have to only take street people who never did choreography in their life. And that's a death sentence when the entire show is based on it.

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It seems like the judges heard that some people thought they were too pro-Street last week, so they decided to balance it out by being pro-Stage this week.

Gaby is clearly being set up to win, to the point of giving JaJa the worst hand of the night...she was the only one of the four to not have any standout choreography. The animation routine had way too much "messing about" and not enough animation, which was such a waste of the dancers. I thought Jaja did well with everything she was given, and while her contemporary/jazz technique is not as good as Hailee and Gaby's, it is completely decent enough for my taste and doesn't take me out of enjoying her performances. However, I feel like JaJa's fate has been sealed.

Edited by calipiano81
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To really do street vs stage they'd have to only take street people who never did choreography in their life. And that's a death sentence when the entire show is based on it.

 

In fact, the show let the contestants decide which group they wanted to be in. From there, the producers/judges picked the 10 contestants they wanted from that particular pool. For example, if he'd been so inclined, there was nothing stopping Virgil from auditioning for Stage, except he would have had a harder time of it going up against the likes of Jim. Stage vs Street simply gave anyone identifying as Street greater odds of making it to Vegas.   

Edited by Mason
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In fact, the show let the contestants decide which group they wanted to be in. From there, the producers/judges picked the 10 contestants they wanted from that particular pool. For example, if he'd been so inclined, there was nothing stopping Virgil from auditioning for Stage, except he would have had a harder time of it going up against the likes of Jim. Stage vs Street simply gave anyone identifying as Street greater odds of making it to Vegas.   

Judging by the talent pool for the male street vs the male stage dancers... I do not think you are correct.

Aside from Zack, Joshua, and Marko, super MEH episode. I thought Zack was far and away better than Gaby in that tap routine and he was what made it so good for me. She kept up, I guess. IDK, I never really find myself watching her in pair or group routines, she's so charisma-less in my eyes.

 

I'm so glad they got Zack instead of Aaron. I'd rather watch Zack any day of the week and twice on Sundays, thankyouverymuch. Aaron is one of the most overrated dancers to have ever been on this show IMO. I think the fact that he was older and was a 'mature hunk' compared to the very young cast of S10 and he hit the partner jackpot with Jasmine carried him further than his dancing and performance level ever warranted. He seems like a very nice guy, but the wishful thinking and nostalgia for him is beyond me, I'm afraid, I was not a fan of his labored lumbering dancing in his own season.

 

I hope if there is a S13 (doubtful), they go back to the original format. I'd even prefer if they go way old school and return to the no All-Stars format (I think the All-Stars, as this season has really made it blatant, take too much away from the contestants because they're more experienced, usually better, and fresher physically). Or IDK, if they're going to continue messing with the format, maybe do a redemption season and bring back all the excellent dancers who probably should've made it farther than they did (in other words, most of the dancers who fell to the Top 6 curse). I personally would love to see an International All-Stars season, where the winners from various seasons of SYTYCD from all the international versions + USA compete against each other, but that probably wouldn't work too well with just American viewers voting. This Street vs. Stage thing was mostly a fail for me, and it's even gotten to the point where I get annoyed whenever Travis and Twitch show up and chime in. Well, I'm pretty much never not annoyed by Travis (ff'd the dance he choreographed because I'm so bored with his melo stuff), but I used to be cool with seeing Twitch.

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Just throwing it out there....you can call him street...but Virgil is still a successful Broadway dancer for a Tony award nominated play and is proficient in tap. Jazz. Ballet and others. I don't know how much more stage it gets than that. That's the kinda person who does well. Street vs stage it's still a choreography competition with enough styles to weed out the truly street. It just took longer to do since they took more of them and eliminated one of each every week.

Just throwing it out there....you can call him street...but Virgil is still a successful Broadway dancer for a Tony award nominated play and is proficient in tap. Jazz. Ballet and others. I don't know how much more stage it gets than that. That's the kinda person who does well. Street vs stage it's still a choreography competition with enough styles to weed out the truly street. It just took longer to do since they took more of them and eliminated one of each every week.

 

I think most of the successful hip hop dancers are accomplished in several fields and have formal training.   I remember Joshua's audition episode, where he did some good solid hip hop to get his ticket to Vegas, then did a leaping ballet turn to celebrate getting his ticket to Vegas. Now obviously he doesn't have the physique to be a ballet dancer, but the fundamental skills were totally solid.

I think most of the successful hip hop dancers are accomplished in several fields and have formal training. I remember Joshua's audition episode, where he did some good solid hip hop to get his ticket to Vegas, then did a leaping ballet turn to celebrate getting his ticket to Vegas. Now obviously he doesn't have the physique to be a bal

ballet dancer, but the fundamental skills were totally solid.

That's kinda what I mean. Most people could get away with auditioning for street at this point. But given their formal trailing the winning the show wouldn't prove a thing.

I think most of the successful hip hop dancers are accomplished in several fields and have formal training.   I remember Joshua's audition episode, where he did some good solid hip hop to get his ticket to Vegas, then did a leaping ballet turn to celebrate getting his ticket to Vegas. Now obviously he doesn't have the physique to be a ballet dancer, but the fundamental skills were totally solid.

The show has a history of conveniently ignoring the training and experience of the hip hop dancers, B-girls and B-boys.  Russell Ferguson who won what is now referred to as the Lost Season Six, was presented as hip hop but had training at the Boston Arts Academy and majored in dance at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia.  Sara  Von Gillern while primarily a  "B-girl" had a lot of training in multiple genres at college in Colorado . Joshua admitted that he received training in modern, ballet and jazz dancing and the list goes on. Twitch's experience as a professional dancer was sort of overlooked in his season until Adam had to disclose that he directed him in Hairspray.  It's all done in the name of casting a TV show.

Edited by cali1981
Did the Top 4 all dance together? I just can't remember if they did. Hmmmm. Funny, I can't remember  a Top 4 routine from last night BUT.......I can still remember the Top 4 routine from season 2. Travis, Benji, Donyelle and Heidi performed to Wade Robson's "Sexy Back". That was all kinds of awesomeness. I guess that says something about my memory........I'm getting old.

 

I noticed that, too. I can't remember a top 4 where they didn't do a group routine on the last competition night.

 

The counterpoint to the judges-sandbag-Hailee theory is another one, not cited as often here lately: the judges will intentionally downgrade someone to motivate complacent voters. 

Absolutely. Nigel admitted using "reverse psychology" in an interview after Jordan & Jess were eliminated. Jess hadn't been in the bottom since top 20 & Ricky had been there 4 times, so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_apKQqZg6x4

I'm still not convinced Nigel wanted Chehon to win. Given the fact that most of the bigger entertainment-site polls had Chehon leading after top 6 & beyond, I suspect Nigel's final comments were strategy to give Cyrus a voting boost. The outrage on Twitter about Niegl's comments reinforced my belief. But I think many people recognize his shenanigans by now and tend to ignore him.

Am I the only one who heard Nigel claim that he hoped Gabby wins right after her tap duet with Zach? Also, blaming Jaja for poor choreography doesn't lead one to think that Nigel is pulling for that contestant to win. 

Just watched it again. No, he didn't say he hoped Gaby would win. Also, critiquing dancers by focusing on the terrible choreography or costume choice is something Nigel has done many times before (think Caitlyn & Mitchell's save-the-world hip-hop...Nigel acted like they came up with it). He recently criticized Gaby and Jim for the awfulness of the Fever choreography and his only personal comment to them was "Sorry, it left me cold." The sexy fish dance is another example from this season. Those girls didn't come up with that lame choreo.

 

Chris Scott's 2 routines for Cyrus were each a raging success. I'm sure Nigel thought he was giving Jaja a gift. I highly doubt Chris would agree to the implication that he should  "Make sure Jaja fails". Unfortunately, Chris is hit or miss. This one was a miss. I think it rallied Jaja's fans if they loved her entire body of work.

 

I think most of the successful hip hop dancers are accomplished in several fields and have formal training.   I remember Joshua's audition episode, where he did some good solid hip hop to get his ticket to Vegas, then did a leaping ballet turn to celebrate getting his ticket to Vegas. Now obviously he doesn't have the physique to be a ballet dancer, but the fundamental skills were totally solid.

I agree. Most of these kids grew up dreaming of being on this show. Why on earth wouldn't they prepare by at least trying to diversify their skills? Tadd never stated it on the show but when he was cut in an earlier season at the ballroom stage, he took ballroom lessons. He ended up managing fairly well at ballroom. That's smart to me and I blame dancers for not putting that effort in if they are serious about this show. People were upset with how Nigel portrayed Joshua, but since Joshua himself stated that he'd had formal training and even brought photos of him at the barre, all of that was Nigel's choice. Thankfully, this season has been fairly free of "Unbelievable! YOU'RE JUST A B-BOY and LOOK AT YOU!"

 

 

As far as setting up a particular dancer to win, the person most responsible for doing that is the contestant himself or herself. Beyond any natural talent or ability to connect to an audience on TV, their chances are exponentially boosted if they train hard, train early, and develop a wide repertoire of skills. See Alex dancing with a ballet company, performing on Broadway, and capable of taking on hip-hop if need be. Quite a few dancers during this season came prepared. I give them nothing but props for that dedication.

Edited by K-MAC
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Wow, could they have been working any harder during Hailee and Gaby's rehearsal to avoid any explicit references to coming out or being gay? Nigel, you have a pretty romantic routine choreographed by an openly gay man featuring two women. Get over it, already. (Anyone want to bet that if the routine had been for two men, Nigel wouldn't have even let it air?) And followed by Nigel's total freakout over Virgil and Joshua's "boy's rule, girls drool" number? That was bizarre.

I don't know about that, but, as someone else pointed out, it was pretty eyeroll-inducing when he started going on about how sad it is that men are just not as comfortable expressing themselves in that kind of emotional way. I was glad that he did acknowledge that even this show has seen some beautifully soft and emotional 2-guy dances (Medicine is easily one of my all-time faves), but seriously, dude. You can't dis male dancers for being too soft and feminine and then turn around and bemoan the fact that dudes are all too agro all the time. Yeesh. And yeah, that freakout after Joshua & Virgil? WTF was that?

 

Also, I think its pretty shitty for different choreographers to come along and say a dance is the answer to Girls (Who Run the World). That dance was about female empowerment. It did not need a "boys rule, girls drool" response.

Yeah, I did not love that either. The dance itself was pretty good, and, frankly, stands on its own merit and power. By all means, have two dudes throw down and give it all the raw aggression they can muster. I'll watch that any day. But why make it into some weird, borderline MRA response to a Girl Power piece? Ick.

 

The show has a history of conveniently ignoring the training and experience of the hip hop dancers, B-girls and B-boys.

And tap dancers. "OMG, you're a tap dancer! It is unbelievable to me that you can also dance so prettily in contemporary!"

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And of those two, I suspect that Nigel would really like to see Jaja take the prize if only to provide an affirmation that the street vs stage format change was justified.  I would disagree and still favor the old format.  Since the ratings were so low this season, you have to wonder if more tinkering will be in order.

 

There's the whole 'never been a female hip hop winner' mantra the-powers-that-be have mentioned the last few weeks as well.

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Unfortunately, Chris is hit or miss. This one was a miss.
Has Chris ever done a good male/female duet? Based on his LXD work and this show, I've always thought he struggles to choreograph for female dancers (with the exception of Comfort). Which is silly because it's not like he needs to do anything special (see his routines that include Comfort), but it seems to be a block for him.

 

The dance itself was pretty good, and, frankly, stands on its own merit and power. By all means, have two dudes throw down and give it all the raw aggression they can muster. I'll watch that any day. But why make it into some weird, borderline MRA response to a Girl Power piece? Ick.
Yes! IMHO, it was the best duet Pheonix and Pharside did all season--probably because they didn't weigh it down with an unnecessary concept--but it's a little frightening as a response to Who Runs the World. What is all the raw aggression supposed to be about? Jasmine and Comfort, IMHO, came across as simply celebrating female power in a world that doesn't always celebrate it. It wasn't about men at all, much less meant to be some kind of threat or put down. But this seemed almost like a "stay your in lane" type of message. 

 

Since I doubt Hailee will win (not that I would mind if she did), it will be the first time the winner never had to dance a single ballroom routine in the competition.
I'm disappointed Jaja didn't get ballroom. I still remember her cha cha audition round from the previous season. I was looking forward to seeing her in Latin.
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Has Chris ever done a good male/female duet?

Misty Blue? That usually ends up on people's Top 10 lists, but it's not one of my faves. I really prefer his group numbers. Velocity, Sand, Architect of the Mind are my faves. I think he does really well with more lyrical stuff.  I actually think he'd be a great contempo choreographer if he had the background and vocabulary. 

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Nigel implied it when he told Gaby, "I'm crossing my fingers for you."

Why do the judges feel the need to say who their favorites are anyway? Do they think that actually helps the dancers? (Though at Top 4, it just might)

 

Thank you calipiano81. I knew I hadn't dreamt what Nigel had said. I paraphrased upon my own assumptions and should have quoted him verbatim. 

Zack!  Seeing him dance with Gaby made me smile.  I loved it.  I think the choreographer brought out the best in Gaby.

 

Chbeeb!  His choreography was such a breath of fresh air.

 

Josh was scary, man.  I thought Virgil couldn't compare.

 

I liked Jaja's solo a lot compared to her others.  I still think she will win; if not, then Gaby.

 

In one of the early seasons, I might have enjoyed Hailee and Marko's Ray Leeper jazz.  I agree Marko has improved greatly.  It's been fun to see him as an All-Star and I would not have thought that before.  He danced with a lot of sex appeal in that jazz and was a great partner.  However, I have seen so much jazz over the years that I couldn't get too excited about it.

 

This was one of the weakest finales I can remember.  I can only remember liking Melanie's season finale less.

 

Apropos of nothing, I sort of miss Yorelis.  In a team-less season, she would/should have lasted much longer.

 

(Edited because I don't write good.)

Edited by ToxicUnicorn
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According to Stacey Tookey Jaja has been performing with a slipped disc for quite a while. I don't know how some of these contestants perform injured, let alone perform something as hard as krumping. 

Yow! I injured my back a month or so ago (by sitting in the wrong chair for a few hours — how to tell you're getting old), and I could barely move. Dance class was not happening. I can't even imagine trying to do most of this stuff with a borked back.

Edited by kingshearte
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I wasn't that impressed with Virgil and Joshua's hip hop routine. I thought Joshua manhandled Virgil and it appeared to me that they botched the intertwined cartwheel move. I watched it in slow motion and Virgil looked like he was being tossed around. Joshua killed it though.

I had the same feeling with that cartwheel. It was awkward and half-finished.

In fact, it seemed like killer fatigue was catching up with everyone this episode to some degree.

 

I'm glad we've been getting more jazz. It's just so much more enjoyable to me than most contemporary on this show. Possibly unpopular (and arguably crude) opinion - If ballet, modern and jazz all got together and had a special-needs child it would be contemporary.

Loved Virgil and Hailee's number.

 

Zack, Zack, Zack! This alone was reason enough for Gaby to be in the top four.

It seems like there have been more and more injuries in the past few years.

 

I feel like injuries have always been a part of the show. Most dancers have always powered through as much as possible but there are always people hurt every year. Rama Lama was danced with 9 people because Natalie(?) was too injured to do the group number. The demands of this show just seem to lead to injuries. 

That finale was so dull and lackluster I almost wasn't going to comment at all. The only number I thoroughly enjoyed was the tap finale. I will miss this show if it does not come back next summer (and its looking more and more likely that it will not), but perhaps it is for the best is this is the kind of middling dreck we now get. Lord only knows what further gimmicks FOX would mandate if the show were to squeak by for another year.

 

Virgil was totally manhandled in the cartwheel by Joshua. Am I mistaken or did a judge actually praise that particular move?

I feel like injuries have always been a part of the show. Most dancers have always powered through as much as possible but there are always people hurt every year. Rama Lama was danced with 9 people because Natalie(?) was too injured to do the group number. The demands of this show just seem to lead to injuries. 

They have, but I also feel like there have been more of them this year. I'm sure there's always been at least a few who injure out of auditions, and a couple of seasons (including this one) have had last-minute replacements in the top 20, and I think every season I've seen has had a week with one dancer sitting out, but this season had, what, three weeks with a dancer injured enough to sit out at least some of the dancing? Plus that last-minute pre-show replacement due to injury? Definitely seems like more than usual this year.

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I feel like injuries have always been a part of the show. Most dancers have always powered through as much as possible but there are always people hurt every year. Rama Lama was danced with 9 people because Natalie(?) was too injured to do the group number. The demands of this show just seem to lead to injuries. 

 

I agree. Stacey also mentioned that they "all" were injured and being held together by bits and pieces. She mentioned specifically what Jaja was dealing with because they were talking about Jaja appearing to have less energy than usual - and it helped that Jaja had addressed the subject on social media, so it was already public knowledge.

 

It felt, to me,  like Seasons 6 (two) & 7 (three, starting with Alex) had the most dances affected by injuries.  I think that was due to the dancers taking doctor's advice to 'rest & heal' seriously - with an eye to longevity as a dancer rather than shorter-term goals. I think even the show had to take that more seriously which is why we had the on-the-fly rulings that arose in Season 6. I know I was annoyed that Noelle Marsh was given a 'pass' during the 1st episode, but with hindsight I'm OK with it because it was the start of the dancers being treated more humanely.

 

I checked Wikipedia to confirm how many duets were affected by injuries: 

Season 1 - No injuries that resulted in missing a duet.

Season 2 - You mentioned Natalie missed Ramalama, but no one missed a duet. 

Season 3 - Jessie Peralta missed a duet with Pasha.

Season 4 - Jessica King withdrew before the Top 10 episode due to injury. It's interesting to note that Season 4 contestants had to do the most dances of all the seasons (they started 2 duets per episode at Top 14 and added Solos at Top 10). I'm surprised that Jessica was the only contestant to have to bow out because of her injury. However, both tWitch and Joshua were briefly hospitalized the finale week due to exhaustion and I believe, dehydration, but I'm not certain of that.

Season 5 - No one was injured enough to miss a duet.

Season 6  - Noelle  Marsh and Ashley Di Lillo both sat out a duet.

Season 7 - we lost Alex Wong and Ashley Galvin due to injury and Billy Bell sat out a duet - all in consecutive episodes.

Season 8  - Mitchell Kelly sat out his 1st episode dance (like Noelle in S06).

Season 9 - Janelle Issis sat out a showcase number due to illness, not injury.

Season 10 - Jade Zuberi withdrew due to an injury and both Curtis Holland and Tucker Knox missed a duet due to injury.

Season 11 - No duets missed due to injury.

Season 12 -  Derek Paquette missed a duet due to injury and (ETA) JJ was too injured to dance on the episode she was eliminated (from previous weeks votes).

 

I'm surprised that I didn't remember all the injuries from Season 10.

Edited by Anothermi
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Off the top of my head:

Donyelle, Season 2, danced the finale with a broken toe. No one knew it until Nigel said something about wearing high heels with a broken toe.

Aaron had a torn or partially torn labrum for the last episodes of his season, though he continued to perform.

 Chehon ended up lifting everyone...a lot.. including dead-weight Cyrus, who had no idea how to help the "lifter". Later, Chehon said he couldn't sleep before the finale because of back pain, which makes me wonder what stories Ade could tell.

 

The finale always looks like the last few yards of an Iron Man race. I remember Twitch, Katee, Courtney, and Joshua basically leaning against each other for support as they gasped and panted during feedback for their group routine. Mia did not spare them one bit and I thought at least one of them was going to faint on live TV. Anyone watching Marko and Tadd try to move in those heavy boots during their finale duet had to feel so bad for them. They moved like boulders were tied to their legs.

 

I don't know how they do it. And the tour will take its toll as well.

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Top 4 compete head to head. Each contestant dances with every other contestant. How can this episode not be relevant?

 

Did the Top 4 all dance together? I just can't remember if they did. Hmmmm. Funny, I can't remember  a Top 4 routine from last night BUT.......I can still remember the Top 4 routine from season 2. Travis, Benji, Donyelle and Heidi performed to Wade Robson's "Sexy Back". That was all kinds of awesomeness. I guess that says something about my memory........I'm getting old.

 

Oy, now you've done it.  I had to go youtube that routine, which lead me to more youtubes of the final 4 of season 2.  *Sigh* those were the glory days of SYTYCD, a show I used to love.  Wow, Wade Robson and Shane Sparks choreography! Benji, Heidi, Travis and Donyelle...true dancers who excelled in so many genres, including *gasp* so much ballroom (Latin and American), which I adore.  Damn this show, it used to be great.  Now this will probably be the last season, and I find myself not caring.

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K-MAC, thanks for mentioning Tadd and Marko because those are the two that looked really tired to me for the finale.  Nigel really wanted Melanie to win and I felt bad that these two had to learn new genres in the finale.  Some things that contributed:

 

Marko had to lift Melanie in a Dorian Sanchez disco.  This was the first time they had disco.  You know Dorian and her lifts.  Melanie is not a small girl so that couldn't have been easy on Marko all season.

 

Tadd and Sasha had to learn a cha-cha.  This was the first time that they did a cha-cha.  Mark Ballas choreographed.  This routine did not go well.

 

Tadd and Marko doing a new style of hip-hop with those heavy boots.  I think it was stepping.

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Thank you for that.  Twitch is so gracious in praise and he made me see a couple of things from a dancer's perspective that I hadn't before.  I agree with him that the street dancers were very challenged and the stage dancers were not.   Hailee's hip hop was commercial, not street.  Gaby's hip hop wasn't really hip hop at all. 

 

Travis, I've enjoyed his rather uncensored take before, but this one was petty. On Virgil: "He did as well as he could have".  Jerk.

Edited by poppy-
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The tap choreo was wonderful, but why did they need 6 separate boxes? Couldn't the show have put some clear plastic on top (so the dancers don't risk falling through) and had the same effect? It just seems like a nasty injury waiting to happen. It didn't seem like the gaps were essential to the choreography.

 

Parts of Hailee's Ray Leeper jazz rehearsal (with Marco) showed her in black chunky-heeled boots for some of the moves. It had a really nice look to it. I wonder why they changed to sneakers for the performance. It made the dance feel a bit clunky for me.

The tap choreo was wonderful, but why did they need 6 separate boxes? Couldn't the show have put some clear plastic on top (so the dancers don't risk falling through) and had the same effect? It just seems like a nasty injury waiting to happen. It didn't seem like the gaps were essential to the choreography.

 

It was the final competition episode. Morigerato held nothing back. He went for it and so did Zack and Gaby. Zack fell through the boxes in rehearsal so I think he learned his lesson very quickly how not to do that again. I would imagine Gaby learned from Zack's mishap too. I loved the effect of the six boxes. The tap sounds were different from the floor and offered that extra layer to the performance. Great job done by all involved. Bravo!!!

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