S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

[RazzleberryPie]

I loved this interpretation! Not only does it show how Bedelia, the one who got away, finally snapped from the exhaustion of being that one, but how she's waiting for dinner guests who will never arrive.

 

Since she's so narcissistic, she assumes that the very first thing Hannibal and Will would do is hunt her down. Unlike Alana, who was basically told by Hannibal (like Bedelia was told by Will, come to think of it) to run away or he'd come get her, she doesn't hop the nearest helicopter with six giant bodyguards--she can't bear the idea that Hannibal might not actually bother with her, especially since she had to hear it from his twitchy little proxy. She's worked too hard to make him as obsessed with her as he made her with him.

 

Look at that dining setup--the lavishness of the tableware, the elegance of her gown and hair, the over the top-ness of the entire cooked leg on the table as she sits, gasping with delight at the thought of her true love/mirror finally arriving to an irresistible experience featuring her. Her, her, her, her, her, her. Fork in lap, she waits for battle, convinced that it will end with Will bleeding out and Bedelia in Hannibal's arms. 

 

She's tried everything else. Being his shrink, running away from him, running away with him, dancing with him, bathing for him, killing for him, leaving him, lying about him, lecturing about him. All those truffles and wine and oysters, those Italian professors and nosy bearded wannabes. All those lecture halls. All those  conversations with Will, the golden boy, that little shit. Always without a perfect blonde hair or facial expression out of place. All she got out of that was scott free, not a mark of his regard on her. If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself.

Didn't Gillian Anderson play Miss Havisham in a BBC production? She just can't get away from grotesque dinner parties, can she?

[Captanne]

Snookums, you are on a roll.

 

I cannot for the life of me get this show out of my head.  No episode has hit me like this one.

 

Even Series One and Two left me alone.

 

Not this freakin' episode. 

 

I can't put my finger on it.

 

So to speak.

[Brattinella]

Now I have to go watch it again!

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The poster who spoke of Will and Hannycosummating their relationship.

I must agree, that fight sequence was the equivalent of them making love.

Sorry Keller and Beecher, these two have topped you.

As the most intriguing and destructive slash pairing on tv.

Fuller gave me three hot men , in a bloody battle royale.

That's right Armitage, didn't forget you boo.

Edited September 1, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[MisterGlass]

I am enjoying the number of articles flying around online in homage to the series.  I like seeing it appreciated and celebrated.  There is a lot of joy over three seasons and only a teensy bit of mourning.

 

In Hannibal's cell before the convoy, Will wasn't even trying to pretend to Hannibal that the planning he was speaking was the plan in his head.  It was a complete inversion of his careful, nuanced behavior toward Hannibal in Season 2.  They both knew Will's design, and he knew Hannibal would go along with it out of uriosity if nothing else.

 

Fen

I respect Bryan Fuller's commitment to not showing sexual violence against women on the show - given how prevalent it is in other shows and movies.  However, I felt that - post-Beverly - this sometimes broadened out to a guarantee of safety for female characters which could be detrimental to tension?

 

Crossbow

I never felt the safety of any female character was guaranteed. I was sure Freddie was going to die, and of course Abigail. I previously thought Beverly was safe because she was in the book, but, well. So Reba and Alana weren't necessarily safe just because they were in the book either.

 

I didn't take the situation as a guarantee of safety.  Beverly and Georgia Madchen had memorable deaths, and Margot was victimized in a very intimate way.  I thought Alana, Bedelia, and Molly were unlikely to survive the season.  I considered Freddie 50/50 because she became a like-to-hate character with a lot of vivacity.  It's surprising how few recurring named characters died this season.  In the latter half, it's only Francis.

[Snookums]

I can't put my finger on it.

 

 

Good thing, or you might get it bitten off! :)

[jeansheridan]

Captanne, I think it is because Hannibal was free again and he had multiple scenes with Will. The joy of seeing them be honest, of Hannibal without his person suit, of Will no longer conflicted. There is joy in self actualization. It is weird that such a gory, destructive show has so much joy at its center. Or glee perhaps. The glee of getting away with something. Of cutting off Mason' s face on network television. Of that insane sex scene. Of allowing Chilton to live. This show shouldn't have happened, but it did.

And to think I only tolerated season one. The first time. This show deserves and may need multiple viewings like Mad Men or Game of Thrones.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Sometimes I wonder if Will had become something even nastier even without Hannibal's "help". The way he shot Hobbs seemed very clearheaded after he couldn't save Abigail's mother. He only started shaking when he tried to save Abigail.

Maybe trying like hell to fight Hannibal's influence at least postponed his development that got kickstarted with Jack asking for his help.

 

Or maybe I've listened to Hannibal too much.

 

The darkness in Will is his very own, not something he "catches on" due to empathy with so many serial killers (though that sure doesn't make things easier for him to keep it constrained), or because of Hannibal messing with his head and influencing him. I think we were given a hint of it right away at the beginning of S1 when he talks about how we all imagine killing someone and asks the class to write about their designs (something like that). But, I do believe if it wasn't for Hannibal, he would keep the dark side bottled up. There may have been instances like when he shot Hobbs that it reared its head (he admittedly felt good and powerful), but that always scared him and he found a way to repress it, because Will has quite a strong moral code installed in him. His morality is why he never has been able to fully give in to Hannibal and accept his love for the man or how similar they are, and it is at the end why at the very moment of his admission to all that, he still has one more push in him to kill Hannibal and himself for the greater good... I always wondered if it was his father who made the difference for Will and prevented him from being Hannibal v2 (as he admittedly has the potential for it), as he seems to be the one big influence in his life. Kind of like how Mischa was a good influence on Hannibal, and with her gone there was nothing to hold him back... I assume by the time Will's father was gone, he has made enough influence in Will's life that the "affect" lingered so Will didn't "happen" like Hannibal did.

 

I liked Molly in the time she had, and trust that she and Walter will go on happily with the dogs; perhaps more happily than they would have with Will returned to them.

 

Looking back at the season as a whole, there are some things that I missed seeing, but they are more things that I wanted to see explored rather than a disappointment in what was presented.  I wanted a sense of the scandal and outcry surrounding Hannibal's trial, and more of an idea of what it did to the characters.  It would have been a parallel to Will's trial and imprisonment in Season 2.  Price and Zeller testifying would have been great.  And I would have been so, so happy to see David Bowie as Uncle Lecter, and a wonderful Lady Murasaki of some kind.

 

 

I liked Molly too and I do feel sorry for her. I think till Will and Hannibal surface somewhere, they will be presumed dead, and I would guess Molly would be rather devastated by that for she loved Will, and may even blame herself a bit for she did tell him to go, he might have stayed if she had opposed. And when it turns out he simply ran away with Hannibal, it will be an even worse blow for her. I believe Will did love her, and was happy with her, and meant to keep his promises to her, and didn't mean for her to get hurt at all, in any way, but he does end up deceiving and wronging her. I am not angry at him for it, because he didn't do it on purpose, the pull Hannibal has on him is something he has been in denial about all along and he had dealt with Hannibal in his own way and left him behind, and  I guess if Jack hasn't come back to ask for help he could have been able to go on in denial. He is good at repressing his dark desires...

 

 

I really would have liked to see more of the outcry regarding Hannibal too. That weird "child Dolarhyde with creepy adults" dining scene continues to bug me - I feel they either should not have bothered to include it at all OR if they were going to bring in the "grandmother/Dolarhyde's unhappy childhood" somehow, they gave us a bit more from it. It wouldn't need to be too much, but could substitute one or two "dragon growling and writhing" scenes with "Grandmother's voice" scenes like they did in the movie Red Dragon. Maybe they didn't want it to look too Psycho-like? And more than anything, I really wanted Will to connect the first murder of the series with Dolarhyde, and for them to find some "clue" about Dolarhyde through that connection maybe, like pieces of the puzzle all fitting together. Feels wrong that we know about it because of interviews, but the characters doesn't.

 

You do make me wonder--is the full expression of yourself really the best way to be?  Would Hannibal understand and support Will's need to rescue dogs?  I doubt it.  So even with Hannibal, Will would need to suppress part of himself.

 

Funny enough I think Hannibal may just love animals more than he likes humans and animals seem to respond to him well too. Will's dogs had no problem with him (not that those lovable idiots had problems with people in general but they DID growl to Georgina - probably scared out of their minds that someone rotting away was in the house- and they definitely had a problem with Randall -maybe it was the bone suit?-), and he did prevent Mason from hurting them. Then there is the random lamb petting and I believe he did kill a guy for ruining the habitat of some rare bird? So I think he would understand the love for the dogs and the urge to rescue them, he just would not be OK with them living in the house though lol. But, say, Will and Hannibal made Castle Lecter their home base in Europe, I think Will could just fill its huge grounds with all the dogs he wanted, and Hannibal would be fine with that, whatever makes Will happy...

 

I'm not especially keen on Fuller's murder/suicide explanation unless he means that Hannibal lets Will murder him? Which I guess isn't exactly the same thing as suicide? Otherwise, if Hannibal had planned to survive the night, it means he had to be dumb enough to pull Will up right next to the edge instead of literally anywhere else on the patio. And Hannibal is usually more meticulous than to do something like that by accident.

 

I think Hannibal did allow Will to kill himself, I say that because even after the initial surprise of "oh, he isn't throwing us down the cliff?!" he is still not resisting and just going with it. He could at least try to do something... I think Hannibal was still too happy with Will's acceptance and him being in his arms that he decided he'd just go along and let Will have this moment and see where it would led them... And if they die, so be it, they will have died together, after Hannibal already got what he wanted for both of them, not a horrible way to go. Anyway, he may have let it happen, but he didn't see it coming at first. Hannibal tends to be more "human" when it comes  to Will and makes human mistakes and has a blindspot. Which is why Will has been able to manipulate him, and he did manipulate him quite often. He fooled him in S2 when he made him believe he would run away with Hannibal (well, a part of Will did want to, but still). He fooled him in Italy where he said he had forgiven Hannibal and pretended all was OK (love the "you forgive like God") line. Manipulated Hannibal again when he rejected him, making him give himself up to FBI. And now, once again, he catches Hannibal off guard. I don't think Will is lying or manipulating when he says "it is beautiful" or when he draws Hannibal in for a hug - those were genuine moments. But just like a part of Will wants to run away with Hannibal, another part wants to do the right thing, and during that hug I think the "moral" part prevailed and decided to take  them both down. Hannibal thought the "moral" part was fully defeated. I think his tendency to believe Will is %100 his comes from the fact that he desperately needs Will to be. And Will IS a master manipulator. He overplays his strength of character and determination, leaving one guessing as to what he will do,  thinking he will do the "easy", safer thing...

 

I didn't realize Hannibal tore Francis' throat out the first time.  Yowsa!  I don't think we've ever seen the Mads version be such an animal.  Have we seen him bite before? 

 

No, don't think we saw him bite someone alive off. But after what Will pulled with Mason's guy's cheek in Muskrat Farm guess he was inspired and waiting  for an opportunity to pull that move even more effectively, heh...

 

 

Snookums, you are on a roll.

 

I cannot for the life of me get this show out of my head.  No episode has hit me like this one.

 

Even Series One and Two left me alone.

 

Not this freakin' episode. 

 

I can't put my finger on it.

 

So to speak.

 

I know the feel. I rewatched the epi a few times and still keep obsessing about it, and keep listening to the song too. Maybe it is not wanting to let go off the show, maybe it is because the finale was just so great. A friend in another forum said she has been hearing the finale was awesome and is now intrigued even more to watch the show as a result, so I think it may have to do with just how good it really was.

 

It is also why I am hoping for a continuation. Will and Hannibal is this show's core and heart and everything. The show benefited from great acting overall but Mads and Hugh (and Fuller and the writers of course) are the ones who made it really work, who made Will/Hannibal relationship be something that is complex, meaningful, exciting, deep, special... unlike anything else on TV, as far as I am concerned. Regardless of how you perceive the "sexual" intentions of the couple. Lovers, friends, enemies... Doesn't matter how you view them, you just know they were extraordinary. TVD has ruined the word "epic" for me, but I would say the finale, their last moments, were "epic".  And given the continuation would have focused on them more, and their relationship it would have been a delight to see.

 

Oh and I am pretty sure this show ensures I will never be sucked in by those god-awful TV shows based on couple's drama that last much much longer than they should (not that I am a huge fan of  them anyway, but sometimes you start watching the show for some other thing/expecting something else and end up being sucked in). Teen angst which I hate, is going to look even more insufferable and stupid now. As will ridiculous relationship dramas and triangles. I am FREE!

Edited September 1, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Captanne]

MisterGlass

 

In Hannibal's cell before the convoy, Will wasn't even trying to pretend to Hannibal that the planning he was speaking was the plan in his head.  It was a complete inversion of his careful, nuanced behavior toward Hannibal in Season 2.  They both knew Will's design, and he knew Hannibal would go along with it out of uriosity if nothing else.

 

I noticed that, too.  Also, at one point Will is talking with Jack and gives him a "look" that says, "I am SO not telling you the whole story."  

 

I think, maybe, the performances by Dancy and Mikkelsen are what is dragging me back into this episode in my mind.  It felt like we, the audience, were in on their story.  We were part of the secret.  And, in that final embrace (which I did not find romantic at all, for the record, so no shipper, here) there was security in knowing what had happened and what absolutely had to come next.

 

They took us along the journey with them.  

 

ETA:  Jeansheridan

Captanne, I think it is because Hannibal was free again and he had multiple scenes with Will. The joy of seeing them be honest, of Hannibal without his person suit, of Will no longer conflicted. There is joy in self actualization. It is weird that such a gory, destructive show has so much joy at its center.

 

Yes.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Captanne

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Re: Bedelia's scene

 

I think of it as a glimpse into S4. Kind of like how S2 started with Jack/Hannibal fight of the finale, and then we got the story of how things got there and how that fight ended. Bedelia's scene may very well be a glimpse into S4 finale or mid-finale (that we could have had), and we would have been told how things went there, starting with how Hannibal and Will survived their fall,what they did afterwards etc. If Bedelia, like the rest of the world, thought they were dead, she would have been caught off-guard. Or, even if she suspected they didn't die and remained in hiding they could have just tracked her in time and snatched her from whererver it was she was hiding...

[Captanne]

Thinkie thoughts:  I fear I am treading closely to the line of saying I find "comfort" in a relationship based on cartoonish-levels of abuse.  Hannibal is an unrelenting, irredeemable, unrepentant abuser.  Possibly the quintessential version of the classic abuser*.  And Will keeps returning to that abuse as Hannibal's point of fascination (obsession?).  Hannibal is focussed on Will, I think, underneath it all because Will feeds his bottomless ego like no other.

 

This is a tragic relationship -- but sometimes there is a synergy (symbiosis) in abuser/abusee that can't be broken.  Death isn't necessarily the worst thing your abuser can do to you -- sometimes death is more of a release than part of the pain.

 

From another angle -- what does Will get out of this?  He sees a side of him that he cannot push away or down or under.  He finally "owns" it.  And he can't live with it.

 

I think I'm reaching a level with this show; a sort of agreement to love it even though many times I didn't.

 

*I may have a JD but I sure don't have a degree in psychology.  I don't know the textbook definition of "abuser" but I think Hannibal qualifies on the spectrum.  That is a layman's opinion.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Captanne

[Captanne]

DeadlyEuphoric

 

The darkness in Will is his very own, not something he "catches on" due to empathy with so many serial killers (though that sure doesn't make things easier for him to keep it constrained), or because of Hannibal messing with his head and influencing him. I think we were given a hint of it right away at the beginning of S1 when he talks about how we all imagine killing someone and asks the class to write about their designs (something like that). But, I do believe if it wasn't for Hannibal, he would keep the dark side bottled up. There may have been instances like when he shot Hobbs that it reared its head (he admittedly felt good and powerful), but that always scared him and he found a way to repress it, because Will has quite a strong moral code installed in him. His morality is why he never has been able to fully give in to Hannibal and accept his love for the man or how similar they are, and it is at the end why at the very moment of his admission to all that, he still has one more push in him to kill Hannibal and himself for the greater good... I always wondered if it was his father who made the difference for Will and prevented him from being Hannibal v2 (as he admittedly has the potential for it), as he seems to be the one big influence in his life. Kind of like how Mischa was a good influence on Hannibal, and with her gone there was nothing to hold him back... I assume by the time Will's father was gone, he has made enough influence in Will's life that the "affect" lingered so Will didn't "happen" like Hannibal did.

 

Absolutely.  I'm particularly fond of this line,

 

it is at the end why at the very moment of his admission to all that, he still has one more push in him to kill Hannibal and himself for the greater good.

so I repeat it.

 

Although, because I'm rusty on the books, I don't remember Will's father's influence or the mention of it.  Basically, if it wasn't in Manhunter I'm not going to remember it.  For I am old.*

 

*By this, I mean discussion focussed on Will.  I do remember both the book and film of SotL however, if I may give an "uo" -- I find SotL overrated.  I was totally baffled by the Academy Award Love.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Captanne

[Neurochick]

 

 

I do agree this being the "camera and internet" age does make it harder to believe FBI's most wanted could just walk around freely not even bothering to make some changes to his appearence. On the other hand, as I am writing this, I have absolutey no idea who is on FBI's most wanted list (so if Hannibal is not in USA, his chances of recognition are lower I'd say), or in my country's most wanted list,  and I can't even really remember or describe how the market owner down the street looks (admittedly don't shop there often, just 2-3 times in 5 years) and although we know some of our neighbors well, some others we barely ever see and I don't know them..  so I can imagine how a most wanted serial killer can continue to live among normal folk with no one necessarily realizing...  And as for FBI going through all the camera recordings looking for Hannibal and or Will, I think it is easier said than done. There are just too many recordings, and not enough time or people to go through it (if I remember right normally almost none of the surveilance vids ever get watched, so if Hannibal is being careful with surveilance cameras while committing the crime, him being caught in some random surveilance camera while grocery shopping somewhere far away from the crime scene won't mean anything). Unless the "face recognition" software one sees in CSIs and movies really work and does the job for one, though as far as I know, it doesn't really work that well and needs specific conditions and limited number of people to search through etc.. Most cameras don't even record that well, and are set to "rewrite" over their recordings everyday...  Many crimes caught on camera continue to go on wih the criminals not apprehended. So I can buy Hannibal continuing to commit crimes without being caught, especially as it has been at least 3 years since Hannibal the Cannibal had his 15 seconds of fame on TV reports... He is probably mostly forgotten by now, especially in foreign countries.  IF he is keeping a low enough profile and not trying to replace a very well known public figure etc, that is.

 

All that would have to happen is Hannibal was seen on a show like "America's Most Wanted."  People have been caught from being seen on that show.   Hannibal and Will might have to get cosmetic surgery and keep their killing to the minimum.

[kechara]

Ok. First, I will use the parallel universe if I can't suspend disbelief.

CAPTANNE...I get what you are saying about not being romantic, and I agree in the "love and mawiage" sense, but, like the ocean's majesty, or Tale of Two Cities kind of romantic, the grand gesture kind of romantic that works for me. I don't confuse love with obsession. They aren't the same at all.

I agree that the Bedelia dinner party was a flash forward, preview of what would come next.

Damn I will miss this show and its future, cut off in its prime

[Crossbow]

All that would have to happen is Hannibal was seen on a show like "America's Most Wanted."  People have been caught from being seen on that show.   Hannibal and Will might have to get cosmetic surgery and keep their killing to the minimum.

 

In the books Hannibal has frequent plastic surgery, and enjoys looking at the FBI's outdated pictures of him. I don't know how well that would work with Mads Mikkelson because he's the king of micro-expressions and I would think that prosthetics would interfere with that.

[Bruinsfan]

Will at least might not need plastic surgery after what the Dragon did to him. A brush cut and all the scars might be enough to make him look like a different person.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Helena Dax]

I think the relationship between them is pure Romanticism. It's Don Juan Tenorio and Doña Inés, it's Heathcliff and Catherine. It doesn't need to be healthy or nice to be romantic. 

[jeansheridan]

 

I think we were given a hint of it right away at the beginning of S1 when he talks about how we all imagine killing someone and asks the class to write about their designs (something like that)

I rewatched the first ep recently and it is impressive how Fuller clued into what he wanted to do almost immediately.  I think perhaps only some of the side performances were a happy surprise.  Chilton and Freddie turned out to be so much more vivid than expected so he kept writing for them. 

 

Will was such a grumpy teacher.  I bet he was a hard grader.

 

Then the genius of giving him dogs!  One nearly silent scene of watching this man patiently save a runaway and then seeing his pack on the porch and that's all she wrote.  He instantly becomes a hero.  I'm that easy. 

 

In retrospect too, I think the only chemistry that never worked for me was Abigail and Will.  I never bought his interest in her.  Even rewatching Season One, I feel more love from Alana for her and more compassion from Freddie too.  Will just seems like a weird and awkward big brother figure.  Definitely not a father figure. 

 

I will treasure his few scenes with Bev in season one too.  She just cuts through his twitchiness and weirdness with her own sharp humor.  And they're a perfect example of two friendly people with no sexual chemistry. When she works on his shooting stance, she's working on his shooting stance, not flirting with him.  Beverly was probably a bigger loss to Will than I realized beyond the obvious horror of helping get a colleague killed.  He lost one of the few people who just liked him without putting a lot of thought into why she liked him.

 

And as much I love the finale, I will miss the chance to see Will recover his humanity again.  Obviously that's not the story Fuller wanted to tell, but I think the capacity for humans to recover from tragedy and move forward is fascinating.  Survival and thriving is just as interesting as destruction.  Again, maybe why I love that Chilton is alive and I hope doing a book tour someday.

[Snookums]

I fear I am treading closely to the line of saying I find "comfort" in a relationship based on cartoonish-levels of abuse.  Hannibal is an unrelenting, irredeemable, unrepentant abuser.  Possibly the quintessential version of the classic abuser*.

 

 

He certainly is, Captanne. He's raised it to a perverse art form, in keeping with the "fallen angel" method of playing the character.

 

Hannibal, whatever else he is/does, understands power very deeply, but narrowly. He grasps that to make somebody obsess over you, all you have to do is just not worry very much about the outcome, while at the same time never leaving the object of your sick little game alone. For all his pining and rampaging and petty little bitcheries when he didn't have room to pine and rampage, Hannibal never really cared for Will, the real Will Graham, at all. What he cared about was how Will's disabling empathy made him the perfect mirror to gaze into and explore the one true, honest human in the world--himself.

 

Take Will's dogs. Hannibal would never lay a finger on them directly. He's not an animal abuser, one, and two, he knows that would simply shut Will down for good. But he has absolutely no problem at all endangering them indirectly--when he sent MechaWolf guy after Will and poor Winston got shot, or put Verger in Will's house feeding them bits of his face, or knew Dolarhyde would poison them. Somebody who cared for Will, for the best part of Will Graham, like Alana, would never do that, not ever. But the dogs mean nothing to him, not even a hindrance. 

 

The closest Hannibal ever got to feeling love, after Mischa died, was Will Graham, but it's the love of a being that's cut himself off from the world, from the world's connections, and from God. It's the kind of love a B movie mad scientist feels for his creation or specimen. He gazes untiringly at it, sings its praises to the skies, and vivisects it without mercy or blinking. I love you so much I need to reach your core, and I've decided that core is a specific thing in a specific place, and everything else about you is dross, without value or worth. I will hunt down and capture your spark of divine fire no matter what, not realizing that the shell I discarded as "useless" was you, the soul of you. Because a soul isn't distinct from the body it's in, the life it lives, the brain it thinks with, the mind it uses to choose between good and evil. In attempting to destroy Will Graham in order to claim him for his own, Hannibal ended up pushing Will back into himself in a way no one else could. He did save Will, in the only way that set him free from him.

[kechara]

Mecha wolf. Loving that.

I get almost a Pygmalion vibe, from your description

[Captanne]

Snookums

 

For all his pining and rampaging and petty little bitcheries when he didn't have room to pine and rampage, Hannibal never really cared for Will, the real Will Graham, at all. What he cared about was how Will's disabling empathy made him the perfect mirror to gaze into and explore the one true, honest human in the world--himself.

 

This is what I've been saying since that short little scene in Manhunter aired what feels like a million years ago.  Nicely put and succinctly describes Hannibal's supreme narcissism.  

 

While Will is literally revolted to revisit the part of him he'd successfully quashed for three years, Hannibal delights in manipulating and toying with Will.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Captanne

[Tippi Blevins]

I don't think it's so much that Will feeds Hannibal's ego. If anything, Will has more power to poke holes at his ego and make him feel vulnerable. That's why Hannibal was so mad in last season's finale. He gave Will a "gift" and felt spurned. I think Will makes him feel human, like his sister did, since they kept drawing those parallels earlier in the season. Does this make Hannibal a better person now? Nooo. It makes him more fully actualized. It might make him more evil, even. Because where he would kill for aesthetics, curiosity or convenience before, now he can kill with feeling. He can kill for passion! He can be even more brutal! Getting in touch with his own empathy because of Will, he can be even better at being cruel, if he subscribes to Bedelia's thoughts on the matter.

[Anela]

I wonder what they would have put Chilton through next year, since Bryan Fuller called him their "Kenny" (from South Park). 

 

I haven't watched it again, but I do keep listening to the song. I love that Siouxsie is a huge fan of the show, and that she came out of a sort of retirement for this.

[blixie]

 

This whole show has been a love story between Hannibal and Will from very early on. And really, what happened on screen was, in this particular world's emotional lexicon, a lot more intimate than a kiss.

 

For real Hannibal and Will made a murder sex sandwich out of Francis, then embraced to their bloody beautiful deaths like Butch and Sundance (sorry I hate idiot Thelma and dumbass Louise). 

 

 

What I loved about the post credit sequence- and, I think, the point of it- was the ambiguity of Bedelia's fate. Was she a captive of Will and Hannibal, awaiting dinner? Or was this her sacrifice (in an episode full of them) in order to appease both her paranoia and the fear of Hannibal that lingers deep within her? Brilliant, in my mind.

Yeah that was my take as well, she and will had that spectacular cat fight over Hannibal and that once your sucked into his vortex you're never really free again.

 

 

And, speaking of movies, this scene reminded me of a scene from one of my favorite cult movies "The Hitcher".  Rutger Hauer had been pursuing C. Thomas Howell in a police car when the car crashes and CTH stands on an isolated highway in bright sunlight.   /end of babbling/

 

Heh it reminded me of Butch/Sundance, but I can see The Hitcher too, he definitely would have loved Tommy Howell as a murder husband, but TH was forever disappointing him. 

 

 

Of course, in this version, it came off more like “you’re in love with a serial killer? Me too, girl, me too. I know exactly how you feel for reals.”

 

Yeah, and so I liked his harping on how there was nothing wrong with HER, and that both were attracted to the "men" and not the monsters on their back. 

 

 

It was also heavily sexually charged.  Toppling over a cliff together is basically this show's equivalent of the old 1940s tropes of showing waves crashing on a beach, or a train going through a tunnel.  It was as much a sex scene as a death scene.

 

It really really was, and that would be the one reason I could see a kiss sort of being overkill/gilding the lily, not because either character or their relationship is "beyond sex" but because the relationship and scene were DRENCHED in it already. Of course Hannibal isn't averse to an overkill by any means, so an actual smooch/taste/lick wouldn't have bothered me.

 

 

"if I can't have you, no one else can either" vibe.

 

[Crossbow]

According to Fuller, Will is meant to be straight and Hannibal is sort of, not. I keep saying that if Hannibal thought seducing Will sexually would get him what he wants, he would do it. It just occurred to me to wonder if Will wouldn't have tried using sex to snare Hannibal. I mean, he was willing to mutilate corpses for him, how much worse could it be?

[jeansheridan]

 

In attempting to destroy Will Graham in order to claim him for his own, Hannibal ended up pushing Will back into himself in a way no one else could. He did save Will, in the only way that set him free from him.

And Snookums is still on a roll.  I do feel the ending was a triumph for Will, however brief.  Someone upthread likened it to A Tale of Two Cities.  Sydney's "triumph".  And done so elegantly too.  Not a gunshot.  Just his own body weight and gravity.  Physics. 

 

Another what-if.  If they both survived the fall, but got separated?  Will back to the FBI and Hannibal on to his other life?  What would that look like?  Having reclaimed himself, can Will return to Molly and not have it be "maddenly polite" (such a good line Hannibal!  And from a man who values politeness).  Do we get a Will who retreats to Florida with his little family?  Yeah, doesn't' work for me.  The show works best when they're together and it's hard to imagine how that happens and still keep Will heroic.

[jeansheridan]

 

It just occurred to me to wonder if Will wouldn't have tried using sex to snare Hannibal.

He started using sex when he got out of prison.  Showing up at the office with that haircut.  Letting Hannibal wash the blood off his knuckles, his warmth at the museum, and finally that impossibly flirty "please".  For a man who could barely kiss Alana without being horrendously awkward about it, he was pretty comfortable flirting with Hannibal.  But I don't think he did it before getting out of prison.  There are moments when Hannibal moves in on him in Season One, but Will seems comfortably dude-like with him. 

[Crossbow]

He started using sex when he got out of prison.  Showing up at the office with that haircut.  Letting Hannibal wash the blood off his knuckles, his warmth at the museum, and finally that impossibly flirty "please". 

 

I suppose he did. But if Hannibal had actually made a pass at him, would Will have gone along with it to keep the game going?

[Bruinsfan]

I wonder what they would have put Chilton through next year, since Bryan Fuller called him their "Kenny" (from South Park). 

I'm envisioning Chilton's head in a jar with some sort of life support system like in Futurama.

[Tippi Blevins]

I suppose he did. But if Hannibal had actually made a pass at him, would Will have gone along with it to keep the game going?

 

I think if Will had gone along with it, at least before the murder orgy, Hannibal probably would have been suspicious. Then Will would have been suspicious. And then it would end up like a melodramatic opera version of "gay chicken" to see who gives away their true intentions first.

[Crossbow]

I think if Will had gone along with it, at least before the murder orgy, Hannibal probably would have been suspicious. Then Will would have been suspicious. And then it would end up like a melodramatic opera version of "gay chicken" to see who gives away their true intentions first.

 

Actually you're right, it would probably go that way. Gay chicken.... to the death!

I wonder what they would have put Chilton through next year, since Bryan Fuller called him their "Kenny" (from South Park). 

 

Let's see... I'm trying to think of gruesome deaths from the book that they haven't done yet that could still be inflicted on Chilton. They've already done eviscerated (tree times), burned alive, face cut off and stuck on some one else, face torn off and eaten (twice if you count the lip), choked by an eel, skull cut open (twice), eaten by pigs, stuck in a well, strangled with a chain...

Edited September 1, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

Let's see -- killed indiscriminately and turned into an eyeball (hundreds of times by my estimate), turned into a human cello.....I'm still thinking of more. 

[Crossbow]

Oh, I know what they haven't done - in the book, Verger has a guillotine. Of course, you can't cut off Chilton's head. Maybe they use it on an arm or leg.

[Neurochick]

As for why Hannibal is so special for Will and why he keeps going back to him. Before Hannibal Will was an extremely lonely person. He was antisocial. Not wanting to socialize with people, living in a secluded place, not able to make eye-contact. The one person he seemed to have as a friend was Alana and she actively avoided being alone in a room with him  - and he KNEW. That must have been hurtful. It seemed, anyone who met him who lacked the skills and knowledge to understand his empathy, found him weird and quirky and kind of disliked him or didn't connect with him. And the ones who did more or less understand his empathy and mental state, had such a huge "professional curiosity" about him that they were more interested in analyzing him, and he avoided them as a result. Hannibal was the one true exception. Hannibal would like nothing better than spending days and days alone in a room with Will, talking. Hannibal understands Will, doesn't judge him, helps him understand himself better, and shows great appreciation to the guy. Hannibal loves Will, and he shows it. And whatever "curiosity" Hannibal has on Will is a personal curiosity, not a professinal one. Hannibal wouldn't really want to write about Will, as he rather likes keeping Will all to himself. Their relationship is very intimate, very personal and very close. He doesn't treat Will like a fragile thing that can break at any point, nor does he treat Will as some useful means to an end. It is not about what he can "get" from Will, it is a relationship with reciprocacy. A relationship where they are equals, and they are truly friends. They both get something out of t.  They had a special bond they never had with another person in their entire lives. And Hannibal being a serial killer just doesn't change any of that. I loved how Will described their relationship, that they had a mutual unspoken pact to ignore the worst in eachother to continue to enjoy the best. Because the "best" is just that good, and that needed. It is why they ache for one another, and why they can't help but be in each other's orbit.

 

 

I love this paragraph because it's what I have felt about the Will/Hannibal relationship.  

 

I think that what most people want in a relationship is to be seen, to have someone be able to see them and to see beyond their faults, to see the best.  Some people will meet that person and they'll be appropriate for them; but what if they're not?  It's a close relationship but a sick one.

[Bruinsfan]

Well, they do say that the Right Person will love you because of your flaws, not despite them. Of course, to Hannibal being fascinated by the act of murder isn't a flaw at all.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Will was such a grumpy teacher.  I bet he was a hard grader.

 

 

Hee! I remember some recaps I was reading from S1 and the recapper was making comments on Will-the-teacher like "Will subscribes to the idea every 5 years old has that if you ignore people, they can't see you too" (when commenting on how a student clearly wanted to approach him to ask a question and he would just gaze at anywhere but her direction and she gave up and left) or "oh, so he is THAT kind of a teacher" (when he asks the class what the clue is on Hobb's resignation letter that enabled them to catch him, and then a few raise hands, and he just says "there is none. Luck and bad book-keeping is how we caught him". I doubt he was a well-liked teacher. I mean, the guys teaching motto was "I am talking at them, not to them. It is not sociable", heh.

 

The move with showing us the lengths he went to rescue Winston (he went home, got some good, and came back for Winston, after a long tiring day!) was sure a brilliant way to make Will endearing and heroic.

 

 

Beverly and Will was a relationship to cherish. When you think about it, how she was introduced into his lif was kind of annoying for him - she barged into his "this is my design" stance when they were all instructed to leave him alone, straight out asked him if he wasn't real FBI because he is unstable, and then had the audacity to claim it was her who was interrupted by Will when Jack came in asking her what she was doing there. She made Will all nervous in that first encounter... And yet, I think he liked her honesty and the fact she didn't treat him any different than how she treats others and he did like her  and was comfortable talking to her. That is so rare for him.

 

I don't think it's so much that Will feeds Hannibal's ego. If anything, Will has more power to poke holes at his ego and make him feel vulnerable. That's why Hannibal was so mad in last season's finale. He gave Will a "gift" and felt spurned. I think Will makes him feel human, like his sister did, since they kept drawing those parallels earlier in the season. Does this make Hannibal a better person now? Nooo. It makes him more fully actualized. It might make him more evil, even. Because where he would kill for aesthetics, curiosity or convenience before, now he can kill with feeling. He can kill for passion! He can be even more brutal! Getting in touch with his own empathy because of Will, he can be even better at being cruel, if he subscribes to Bedelia's thoughts on the matter.

 

I agree. Will does make Hannibal more human, and in turn more vulnerable and I think that is why he also tried to "resist" Will and is the reason behind his own attempts to injure/kill Will.

 

 

A summary of Will/Hannibal from Hannibal's part would go something like this:

 

When they first met, I think Hannibal instantly took an interest in Will due to his empathy and his attitude and the way his brain works. Will was rather hostile and rude towards Hannibal initially, and I am sure anyone else with that attitude would have been served as an appetizer in Hannibal's next dinner party, but not Will. I think it was in that very same episode he told him him as the mongoose under the house when snakes slither by.  So, he did saw something special in Will immediately. It  wasn't love, yet, obviously, but I think he felt like he met someone "worthy" finally and wanted to know him better. And he felt a certain thrill in seeing Will work on his case...

The relief he felt when Will came in through the door after the encounter with Tobias was the first sign Hannibal genuinely cared about Will and his well-being  - even though at this stage he is still playing his games... I am sure it came as a surprise even to him that he cared this much, and it is about this time he started to brand Will as his "friend" and would not stop talking about him (there was a recap on tumblr that was making parallels between how desperate Hannibal seemed to officially become Will's friend and how needy and desperate Franklyn was to officially be Hannibal's friend. it was hilarious)

 

The loneliness he felt and his fidgeting when Will didn't show up for his appointment because he was off in hallucinationland was obvvious. He was still being an ass and horrible, and  lettng Will continue to suffer from Encephalitis and messing with his head but I think it was also because he knew a "healthy" Will would be likely to figure out Hannibal was the Chesapeake Ripper and obviously that is not something he wanted to happen. Still, there were already signs he didn't handle being without Will very well, he missed his company. One really gets the feeling the best part of Hannibal's workday was when he and Will could have their conversations, after he had to suffer listening to "normal" people and their mundane problems all day long.

 

When Will was imprisoned, and he kept his appointment open, and would sit all alone in the office looking at his empty chair - He was so smug when he first framed Will... And then he found himself missing Will tremendously and trying to get him out ASAP. Once again, I think Hannibal underestimated how much he has come to care for Will and how much he'd miss him....

 

And then, despite Bedelia's repeated warnings to stay away from Will, he resumed therapy with Will and let himself be seduced. He was completely fooled by Will and if it wasn't for Freddie's parfume, was going to be caught. The betrayal stunk, as did the fact he let himself be vulnerable enough to be fooled like that. And here he was, making plans of surprising Will with Alive!Abigail and how happy he would be... Stil, he wasn't ready to give up on Will yet, and gave him one more chance to make it all alright, offering to run away right then and there. But Will wouldn't take it... And when the time for confrontation came, he still couldn't bring himself to kill Will, and cut him just right so he could survive. "I let you see me. Gave you a rare gift. But you didn't want it". He had given Will his love, his trust, his friendship and Will didn't want it and used it all against him... Love that they made sure to include Will's reply to this. "Didn't I?" because, really, he did but couldn't just accept it . "You would deny me my life?" "no" "my freedom then?" - because his life and his freedom are the two things Hannibal will not let anyone take from him - and really, why should he? No one in their right minds would be OK with that. And that is exactly what Will was trying to take from him...  And then, in one of his dumbest moves ever, Will made things even worse by claiming he already changed Hannibal (it never pays off to further anger and hurt an already angry cannibal in a blood rampage!!!). Wth his heart broken; his ego, his feeling of being smarter and superior is all that is left to Hannibal and here was Will taking a stab at that too. Because he did change Hannibal. He made him feel, trust, care, love - and not only care for Will, but also Abigail. He made him human. And so, as his punishment, Hannibal kills Abigail. It is his own attempt to free himself from Will and his influence, to end their relationship...

 

But it didn't work out. Hannibal can't escape Will any more than Will can escape him. 8 months in Italy living the high-life with Bedelia as an intellectual companion, and nothing works. So, knowing Will would be healed by then, he leaves him a calling card - his broken heart- to lure him back... Will immediately goes back to messing with his head (and feelings) by saying "I forgive you". Which does make Hannibal hopeful for a reunion, I think (and so leads to the emo Hannibal sitting around moping all day driving Bedelia crazy). And their meeting in Uffizi is affectionate. It is almost as if things are back to being "friendly" between them... Only for it to be revealed Will once again chose to betray him, and this time around was ready to deny him his life. So, Hannibal decides to kill Will as Bedelia suggested (attempt number 2 to remove Will's influence) and chooses to eat, so like Mischa, he'd always be with him...

 

Then Muskrat farm happens. It changes things, be it Will being in danger from others, or making Hannibal go "soulmate!" when he bit Cornell's face off, who knows.. Hannibal is back to wanting Will to live. and wants them to make up and probaby thought having a common enemy would just achieve that. But nope. Will won't have any of it. He breaks it off. And Hannibal realizes a life without Will in it just is not very appealing to him anymore, he can't go back to his no-worries-in-life, problem free, serial-killer days. He can run away and be free physically but otherwise he will not be free at all, he is too obsessed by Will and too miserable without him. So rather he sacrifices his freedom to position himself in a place where he can lure Will back to him, and continue to attempt to make him "see". Because there will always be serial killers, and Jack Crawford will always be incompetent in catching them and uncaring about Will's well being, and Will will always find it difficult to say no to saving people (and have a part that wants to be with Hannibal, that wants to see him). Hannibal can wait...

 

And now, it all pays off. This time their common enemy does bring them together. When Hannibal says "see, this is all I ever wanted for you" it is almost like he is pleading with Will to understand he DID have his best interest at heart, he wasn't wishing something bad for Will. And the "for both of us" is pretty much an admission of love, and an offer to run away together again. And this time around Will agrees with Hannibal. "It is beautiful". He finally has Will's acceptance and love, but of course an instant later Will decides to throw him (and himself) off a cliff (Will is very consistent with his betrayals like that). And Hannibal seems resigned to that too. First he sacrificed his freedom for Will, and now he is letting him take his life too...

 

When you think about it like this, Will seems to be the one who has a more powerful stand emotionally. And he is the one who usually delivers the emotional blows to the other one and keeps betraying him. Both are drawn to one another, but especially this season, Hannibal came off rather desperate and needy, acting like an obsesssed jeaous ex most off the time. Will has more options for human connections and people who care for him -even if not a lot-. He has been able to move on from Hannibal and make himself a family (even if not totally honest about it)*. Will is the only person Hannibal connected to, he is "it" for him, and he can't move on, and frankly doesn't want to, because Hannibal is used to getting what he wants so he figures he will just be patient and try and try till he wears Will down. Maybe being thrown off a cliff will change things? somehow I have my doubts, though, because even if Will threw him off a cliff, he DID so after admitting to finding. That is progress!

 

And I agree that having feelings probably enables Hannibal to be more cruel and violent now as he has more at stake.  No wonder he went from a serial killer who killed 2-3 people from time to time when hosting feats, to massacring house full of people... Come to think of it, he may have killed more people since meeting Will then he did during all those years as Chesapeake Ripper, lol.

 

 

* Ironically, I think it is his relationship with Hannibal that made Will less awkward and more social, where now he can actually be in a relatioship with someone and even get them to marry him. He is much more confident and self-asssure. I believe that strength is something he got after he finally had someone who accepted him and made him fear his "darkness" less. When you are not so at war with yourself or afraid of what people might think of you if they know you a bit better, you become less awkward!

Edited September 1, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Crossbow]

We don't really know what Will was like before Hannibal's influence, since they meet in the first episode. The first time we see Will, Jack is accosting him and trying to drag him into somehting he knows is bad for him, so he has all his defenses up. We don't *really* know how antisocial he was before. Well, no, the FIRST time we see him is in a flashback, where he's really confident about what he's doing. But there he's "in the zone" so we're not seeing his everyday self. Also, I think he already had the encephalitis. Wasn't he popping aspirin from the beginning? I'm not sure about that.

[Captanne]

Why was this called Wrath of the Lamb?

[morgankobi]

Oh, I know what they haven't done - in the book, Verger has a guillotine. Of course, you can't cut off Chilton's head. Maybe they use it on an arm or leg.

 

See below:

I'm envisioning Chilton's head in a jar with some sort of life support system like in Futurama.

 

Done!

[DeadlyEuphoric]

We don't really know what Will was like before Hannibal's influence, since they meet in the first episode. The first time we see Will, Jack is accosting him and trying to drag him into somehting he knows is bad for him, so he has all his defenses up. We don't *really* know how antisocial he was before. Well, no, the FIRST time we see him is in a flashback, where he's really confident about what he's doing. But there he's "in the zone" so we're not seeing his everyday self. Also, I think he already had the encephalitis. Wasn't he popping aspirin from the beginning? I'm not sure about that.

 

Will pretty much states he doesn't like being social (and that his spectrum is closer to Asperger's and Autism), and his actions and manners support that too (he avoids eye contact -btw, hated Jack correcting his eyeglasses to force him into making eyecontact- and interaction even with his students and tends to be awkward in personal conversations etc...). Don't think any of that had to do with encephalitis, the hallucinations and blackouts did (though part of that was Hannibal messing with him). (Come to think of it, I think the right terminology is asocial...)

 

I also think there is a bit of a difference between "at work" Will and "personal life" Will. He is confident and more at ease at work, normally, because he knows he is good at it, and he knows he needs to be strong about his views if he is to be listened to and make a difference. It was one of the reasons he kept on doing it, even when he knew he was sick somehow and not in a good shape (I think he even told Jack he had no one who could do it better than him even when he is unraveling - not the exact words of course). He does hate confontation, but doesn't shy from it when necessary. I remember the scene in S1 when they come acrosss Abigail's murdered friends body, and Jack is horrible to Will, grilling him, questioning his judgement on Abigail etc. and Hugh Dancy's body language is wonderful in there, it feels like Will is trying to shrink and he is looking at anything but Jack (and at one time even seems to look at Hannibal hoping for some back up). Till the point where he tells Jack whoever killed the girl in the field murdered this girl too and he is NOT wrong about that, and he is looking directly at Jack then...

 

I think the first episode was the begining of  encephalitis but it hasn't really started affecting him mentally yet. More like he was showing the first physical signs of it, like fever...

Edited September 1, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Captanne]

It's funny because I have always taken a simpler look at Will -- that even from the start (the classroom, say), he knew he had this dark, dark talent.  

 

Because he knew exactly what horrible thoughts could go through human beings' minds, he was shy as hell.  Skittish.  "Twitchy" in Bedelia's final analysis.  Maybe it was added to by some very real mental problem (autism spectrum -- but that wasn't a "thing" in the early 80s when Manhunter aired.)  

 

But the fundamental skittishness came from a sense of "Not only do I know what's going on in your mind, but I don't want you to know I have those dark thoughts as well and I'm onto you."  (The "you" in that case just being the general public, no one specific.)

 

That's it.  No less and probably not much more.  

 

At least that was always expected were his character to suddenly leap off the screen and I should meet him on the subway somewhere.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

But the fundamental skittishness came from a sense of "Not only do I know what's going on in your mind, but I don't want you to know I have those dark thoughts as well and I'm onto you."  (The "you" in that case just being the general public, no one specific.)

 

 

They did bring up his various mental conditions a few times, so I guess they are supposed to play a part too but I do believe the "main" reason for him avoiding people as much as he could was what you said. Him knowing his own dark side and not wanting people to see it (also why he hates being psychoanalyzed and therapy, but then who would like having someone poke around their mind?) and also not wanting to expose himelf to other people's dark thoughts any more than he needed to (maybe also because their darkness feeds into the darkness within him). Though, he really did make the wrong career choice for that purpose - homicide detective turned profier? He should have been a veterinarian or something..

[AstaCharles]

Do we get a Will who retreats to Florida with his little family? Yeah, doesn't' work for me. The show works best when they're together and it's hard to imagine how that happens and still keep Will heroic.

In the book Molly leaves him. It's only in the Hollywood versions that he gets a happy ending. The only time he's brought up in Silence of the Lambs is when Jack warns Clarice about Hannibal, basically saying : don't end up like Will Graham, a drunk in Florida with an ugly face. Jack might have said his face was like a Picasso painting.

I think Fuller said that he wanted to see ugly drunk Will get back in the saddle and go after Hannibal after what happened to Clarice in the third book. This may have been during the first San Diego Comic Con and I remember thinking ' hell yeah' . Now...I'm bummed because I can't envision that anymore. Boy I was a sucker.

[Snookums]

Why was this called Wrath of the Lamb?

 

 

Hannibal quoted this at Will, mockingly, in the penultimate episode: "For the great day of his wrath [the Lamb's] has come, and who shall be able to stand?"

 

This is, of course from Revelation 6:17 and is describing the End of Days, the Apocalypse. The Lamb, that is, Jesus Christ, has been on earth, suffered, died for mankind's sins, been resurrected in His earthly body, and ascended to heaven. The Lamb, through these actions, has gained the right of judgement over mankind. Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.

 

Hannibal was making fun of Will, saying, basically, that Will saw his sufferings at Hannibal's hands as purification or justifying his anger against him. That he was pretending to be done with Hannibal but instead was storing up his grievances to use against him in a final battle, was lying to himself, basically. You're no different than me, says Hannibal. Your thoughts just as dark, your motives just as angry. Don't kid yourself, you're a wolf in a self-righteous little lamb suit.

 

Will, though, is not what Hannibal thinks he is, despite all the efforts Lector has made in that direction. Unlike Hannibal and his delusions of Grand Fallen Lucifer-hood, Will does not fancy himself as Jesus. He'd much rather avoid the world and its countless tiny dark spots than save it. He didn't see his wrath--that his, his decisive, final actions to stop Hannibal--as motivated by anything earned or striven for, since his version of grace is finally accepting there's only one way out of knowing Hannibal Lector, and that's eliminating Hannibal Lector. He knows it's murder, but it's his own, personal definition of murder, not Hannibal's. It's not a method of contempt or bonding or rejection of the world. It is a judgement and he must render it. Who shall be able to stand? All those whose lives will not contain Hannibal and his mind games and his person suit. The world has been saved from him. 

[Captanne]

Snookums thanks for the fabulous explanation.  I was thinking it had something to do with Blake and went down that path -- which wasn't making any sense.  (Blake wrote two companion poems, "The Tiger" and "The Lamb" in the Songs of Experience.  But while comparing the two is interesting, they have nothing to do with the wrath of the Lamb.)

 

DeadlyEuphoric -- I think his sense of morality made him become a profiler.  He knows these dark thoughts so well and does everything in his power to "use them for good".  Ie, to stop the serial killers of the world from wreaking havoc.  If Will can stop it in any way, he will try.  

 

I also think there is a sense of atonement for Will.  He knows that "but for the grace of God goes he", so he "pays back" to the grand karma of the world by stopping those who can't stop themselves.

 

Obs, mmv.

[mledawn]

I didn't notice this until this episode, but Mads has a little belly going on. It's really noticeable in the jumpsuit, and perfect for the character--he's had three years to go to seed and not do too much cardio, after all. I don't know if they just padded him or Mads tucked into some extra dessert but it was a perfect little thing.

 

I noticed this while he was in his cell, but after the ambush by Francis, and he's walking around the open street, it's not there. Same with the final scene at the cliffs - that tight sweater would show it all. I think it isn't actually him, making the pooch in the jumpsuit. Like the fight scene in the kitchen last year, if you watch semi-closely, you can see the padding Mads is wearing for that scene.

 

In the final cliff scene, just before Francis stabs Will in the neck, Hannibal looks over at Will, and Will reaches for his gun. I can't decide if Hannibal is looking to Will for help, or if he's signalling to Francis. Hannibal is always messing with Will, I can't settle on the "help" side, completely.

Edited September 2, 2015 by mledawn

[MisterGlass]

A little late to this one, but I think Hannibal does like Will for being Will, not as a worshipper.  The earlier Pygmalion analogy is apt because so much of Hannibal's time has been spent trying to transform Will, or rather to bring to the surface Will's potential as he sees it.  Hannibal thought that in addition to being entertaining to him this would be beneficial to Will, saying at one point that a little madness would be an innoculation against the world.  Hannibal was fond of his other pet projects, like the wolf-man and Francis, because they were useful or amused him.  But Will began to prove what Hannibal only suspected at first: that he could be an equal.

 

Hannibal did miss Will while he was incarcerated, but was still playing a game with him.  He did allow for developments, keeping Abigail alive for her potential usefulness, as he had done with Miriam.  Then Will started to fight back.  He convinced the orderly to make an attempt on Hannibal's life, which impressed Hannibal.  Then, after he left prison Will sought Hannibal out, and while he meant the show of empathy for Hannibal's position to be an act, his darkness was a little too real.  When Will was staring down his gun at the psycopathic social worker (the one who just crawled out of the horse), he pulled the trigger, but Hannibal put his hand over the gun's hammer to prevent it going off.  Hannibal was delighted, and talked about metamorphosis, and his efforts to whisper through the chrysalis in the hope of affecting the creature that emerges.  He killed the wolf man, not with a gun, but with his hands.

 

There were other early signs that Will had some darkness in him.  One of his hallucinations while he had encephalitis was that the deceased angel-killer, who saw murderers, saw Will as a murderer.  At the time it seemed like Will was over-taxed, and now it feels like his subconscious was trying to lift a darker possibility to the surface.

 

Beverly and Will did make a wonderful pair of friends after the initial awkwardness.

 

The Den of Geek reviewer was fond of the finale. 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Captanne, oh i know why he is a profiler. It is one of the reasons i like Will a lot. He will always strive to do the right thing even when it is difficult, or even not good (for his health, for his happiness etc.) for him. I find that incredibly selfless of him. If memory serves when ghost!Abigail reminded him Hannibal gave him a chance to run away with him without all the bloodshed and he didn't take it, he replies "the wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought". I love that line. Running away with Hannibal at that point would have made Will happy and would have spared everyone else but he couldn't do it because it was "wrong" and so "ugly". It is why he dislikes Freddie and Bedelia so much too i think. They do wrong,immoral, tasteless things and dont even feel bad or pay for it. Will may have his moments where he slips up and does something wrong, but then he agonizes over it a lot and tries to atone for it. He always pays the price, willingly... i think Hannibal is also aware of this, he has mentioned how strong Will's morality is to Bedelia and "you delight in wickedness, then berate yourself for the delight" line was spot on. That is why Will keeps going into Hannibal's orbit but then keeps rejecting him and denying he has any real interest... and i think that is part of the appeal for Hannibal too. Will is a huge challange...

Funny enough, although i admire and love his morality I'd be fine with Will running off into the sunset with Hannibal if it means he will finally be happy. The man deserves to be happy. But only if Will remains Will and does it on his own. Drug-induced brainwashing/conditioning as was done to Clarice (though i think there was a claim it didnt fully take, but still i believe it had some effect?) is something i dread. Though i would like to think show!Hannibal wouldn't do that as he also needs Will to love and accept him and choose to stay with him on his own, with his freewill.


MisterGlass, thanks for reminding the angelmaker scene. I think it was rather a powerful way of showing how Will felt about himself and the darkness within him. And that scene where he pulls the trigger on that socialworker and Hannibal stops him, was a great Hannibal/Will moment. Hannibal stopping Will from killing someone was rather unexpected. Of course part of the reason Will wanted to kill that guy was he was drawing parallels between his relationship with Hannibal and the betrayal he felt and what the socialworker did to that guy...

Edited September 2, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Captanne]

That's fascinating about being okay with will running off with Hannibal so he could be "happy".  I'm actually in the other school -- I would not be satisfied with that.  I think it would tear Will up.  He's got enough "normal" in him to have compassion, empathy, morality ... all the social norms we hope we have.  I'm not sure Will was ever destined to find "happiness" but I would bet that the closest he got was with Molly, Walter, and the dogs.  I think, because of why he is a profiler and why, in the end, he drove them over the cliff and killed them both*, was because his better angel was victorious in his personal battle.

 

The ending was a bit gothic if not perfect.  That was all that could happen and be true to the characters.  (Perhaps Hannibal knew that when he got that bucolic look on his face right before they met their fates?)

 

*I'm not saying I'm convinced they're dead.  I'm just going with what we were left with.

 

ETA:  I had time to put some thought into this:  For me, Hannibal represents seductive, unrepentant, irredeemable, unremitting Evil.  He is what he is and he will never stop.  He enjoys himself too much.  Will recognizes that in Hannibal and in a part of himself.  That part of himself is seduced, but what I have respected and found fascinating for thirty years, is his struggle and I admire him for that.  I don't want Will to succumb to Evil -- and, according to Fuller, he doesn't.  He admits his attraction to it, holds it close, and kills it.  

 

What makes him heroic in the end is that he also knows he has this irredeemable side to him that -- even as long as he tries to devote himself to protecting Mankind from it -- he is only human, will weary, and may fail.  He's only one man, after all.  

 

So, he sacrifices his own life in death in the way that he had sacrificed his own comfort and security in life.

 

Coda:  Part of this comes from Petersen's performance as Will Graham -- he was so fucking angry when he returned to Hannibal in that cell to get the scent.  He was frustrated, frightened, but more he was angry with himself for recognizing the truth in Hannibal's accusation and also for what Hannibal is and represents.  Will will never recover from what was done to Hannibal's victims or, tangentially, to the Leeds and Jacobis by Hannibal's fan club. 

Edited September 2, 2015 by Captanne

[DeadlyEuphoric]

 Well, if Will continues to feel torn when with Hannibal, then he can't be happy, sure. But then, as long as he has the dual pull when it comes to Hannibal, he will always be pushing him off a cliff anyway, so they can't be together in that scenario... I know and totally get that many don't want Will and Hannibal together because Hannibal is evil, and evil should not end up getting what it wants, should not have a happy ending, not even in fiction. Me, I don't care if Hannibal has a happy ending if it means Will gets a happy ending. I guess, as long as the relationship makes sense and I can feel mutual love and care between the two characters, I don't care if we end with a moral lesson or a hero's ending. If Will destroys Hannibal, and symbolically cleansed of his own dark side -more or less- goes on to live a happy life with Molly, that would be fine too (though the way this series was set, nothing seems to compare to the relationship he has with Hannibal, but between the chemistry of  the actors and the few cute little scenes they got Molly has been able to make a good impression, at least). What I don't want is seeing Will destroyed and made even more miserable, losing everything, as Hannibal just continues to exist. Basically, I don't wish the book's ending for Will, where he ends up all alone, drinking himself to oblivion as Hannibal goes on his merry way...

 

Petersen's Will is my least favorite Will of them all, to be honest. He felt too much like a seasoned cop, a hard man and didn't really get the empathy thing from him.. Didn't get much feel at all. As much as I hated Norton's weird blonde-dye hair in the movie, I thought he was able to portray the empath bit, you did get the feeling he had a special understanding of criminals and he felt about the cases deeply... And he felt more connected and loving with his family too.  And Dancy, of course, is the best of all. It is because of him that I find Petersen's portrayal even more unsatisfactory now. And I believe among all the adaptations, the relationship between Hannibal and Will is the most impersonal and cold in Manhunter. Red Dragon's Will and Hannibal had the mentor-student relationship and you felt Hannibal at least had some admiration for this clever boy. Fuller's Hannibal/Will is admittedly a love story and even if one doesn't see the shipping aspect of it, the bromance can't be denied. While it seemed like there was no love lost between Manhunter's Hannibal and Will. They were clear adversaries...

Edited September 2, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric