Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[LJonEarth]

Unless I've missed it, I never see anything about the undercurrent of jealousy that Tony seems to have about Steve's relationship with Howard. I think Tony's made jokes or remarks about it. I got a little bit of that mixed in with Tony's motivations throughout.

[Dandesun]

15 hours ago, LJonEarth said:

Unless I've missed it, I never see anything about the undercurrent of jealousy that Tony seems to have about Steve's relationship with Howard. I think Tony's made jokes or remarks about it. I got a little bit of that mixed in with Tony's motivations throughout.

Yeah... I mean in the first Avengers, Tony commented that Steve was the guy his dad never shut up about but it was more an incredulous thing since neither Steve nor Tony took to each other from jump. And then Tony seemed to go from completely dismissing Steve to telling Loki that he's a living legend that 'kind of lives up to the legend.' I'm still not exactly sure where that came from.

I mean, for me, watching Steve keep Loki's goons at bay on the Hellicarrier became one of my absolute favorite scenes and really made me love watching him but Tony wasn't there to see that so I really don't know.

And, honestly, I never got the impression that Tony and Steve liked each other all that much. Their most friendly banter was at the end of Ultron when they were commiserating about being 'worthy' of Thor's hammer and wondering if Vision picking it up even counted since an elevator could too. Even Natasha quipping about the two of them 'gazing into each other's eyes' -- I mean, it made me laugh because there's quite a fandom out there for Steve/Tony but it did feel way more like 'Really?' Especially since, when push comes to shove, Steve very often does not trust Tony's methods and he very much did not trust them through the entirety of Ultron.

Not to mention where it ended up in Civil War. See, for me, the movie was never really about 'He's my friend/So was I' and it was far far far more about two extremely different men with extremely different viewpoints not being able to see eye to eye about a very very big issue.

And then Bucky just really complicated things further.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Dandesun

[ChelseaNH]

Tony and Steve were more colleagues than friends, especially compared to the way Tony and Rhodey are friends, or Steve and Bucky are friends.  But I get the feeling Tony doesn't have a lot of friends or reasonable facsimiles.  He at least had a measure of trust with Steve, which probably doesn't happen that often.

[benteen]

I mentioned this before but the most friendship vibes I ever got from Steve and Tony, ironically enough, is during this movie after Cap was arrested and Tony and him were discussing signing the Accords and how Tony and Pepper had split up.  For some reason, it was that scene where I most closely felt that they were friends.

[romantic idiot]

I've always felt like they were friends, needling each other. Maybe it's just Tony's informal manner with everyone. Less with Thor though. I can believe Tony felt close to both Cap and Bruce Banner at first sight. 

[VCRTracking]

Someone on Twitter said Chris Evans new girlfriend comedian Jenny Slate was like Steve Rogers dating Bernie Rosenthal(Cap's girlfriend from the 80s) and now I want to see it in a movie:

[JessePinkman]

All of John Byrne's female characters have the exact same face. 

[VCRTracking]

[JessePinkman]

I was thinking more Sue Storm and Ororo Munroe haha. I love his artwork but yeeeeeeah, they shouldn't look alike.

[Bruinsfan]

Well, he did always draw Ororo with almond-shaped eyes (that had vertical pupils like a cat's!), so there were a couple of differences in the rendering.

[scriggle]

How ‘Captain America: Civil War’ Should Have Ended

http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/captain-america-civil-war-how-it-should-have-ended/

[Dandesun]

"Ahh! Too sexy!"

Bucky knows.

That was pretty hilarious, though... particularly the whole bit with Ross. 'Yeah what was that gonna do, shower New York with hugs?'

Also Ant-Man at the end. "I have seen things."

Edited July 7, 2016 by Dandesun

[Rick Kitchen]

Cmon, everybody knows that HISHE is with a Stucky kiss.

[Morrigan2575]

That was great ?

[Jazzy24]

Saw it finally and I'm not a fan. 

Nearly everybody pissed me off. 

-I prefer Steve over Tony but Tony IMO is more interesting and human. I relate to Tony more and that's how I still felt after watching this movie. So Tony is the one I felt for the most throughout the whole movie and maybe because I've had multiple movies to get to know Tony something a lot of characters in this movie don't have. He gave me so many feels. I didn't care about the accords but out of everyone's reasons for and against them I got Tony's the most.  

-Steve made me angry and I felt that he was really arrogant concerning the accords. I never liked Steve's attitude that he's right and that's the end of it. What makes him think that other countries want an American based superpower/dangerous group of people coming into their country without supervision to basically do whatever they want? I get him being hesitant but he got on my nerves. 

 

I realized that that I don't like Sam and Wanda, which sucks cause the Scarlet Witch is in my top three of all time favorite Marvel comic book characters. Ant Man was annoying. And Clint was okay but his outburst at the end had me rolling my eyes. He knew what he was doing was breaking the law, Steve told him so, so it's no ones fault but his that he ended up in a jail cell and on the run breaking promises to his kids. Sharon is still someone I don't care about and she needs to not be in another marvel movie especially not Avengers 1 &2. I don't care about Rhodey but it was bad when he broke his back(I get Tony being upset but him blasting Sam while he apologized, was a big no no)I liked the scene at the end with him and Tony. 

I loved Natasha and I'm glad she tried to make sure her friendships with everyone was still intact. Vision was awesome to. 

-Bucky. I don't care about Bucky. I don't care about his pain,his history, his relationship with Steve, his memories, his plums. I just don't care about Bucky. And I'm not a big fan that Tony turned into a attempted murderer because Bucky killed his parents years ago. Though I said a few pages back that Tony still is a hero who made a mistake but I didn't like the direction it went in. I would totally understand if Tony never trusted anybody ever again with his life and people constantly betraying him I wouldn't either. 

I felt bad for Zemo and think the Avengers are stupid for letting things like lack of communication tear them apart. Zemo should have used the rest of the Winter Soldiers to attack the Avengers, they deserved it after all the stupidity  

 

Black Panther and Spiderman were my favs. I loved them both in and out of the suit. I look forward to both their movies though I don't want Bucky in Black Panther. I am happy that RDJ will be in the new Spiderman movie him and Tom Holland were great together on this movie so I'm psyched about that one.  

 

I didnt like how Steve and co were on the run at the end. This was a Captain America movie a trilogy and basically the end of his movies that should have given some type of closure on the character not have him be a fugitive. 

[DollEyes]

My verdict: what a blast! Captain America: Civil War  isn't just one of the best superhero movies of the year, it's one of the best superhero movies ever. Whose side am I on? Before the movie, I was team Cap & I still am. Tony does have some good points about having some rules, but government cooperation is one thing; government control is another. If I were an "enhanced" person and I was asked to sign an agreement which, to quote Beetlejuice, "Looked like stereo instructions" (The Handbook For the Recently Enhanced?), which said, among other things that if another country had an emergency and needed my help but didn't have time to ask the UN's permission, if I helped them anyway I could be arrested and if innocent people accidentally died I could be charged with murder? Aw, Hell no! I wouldn't sign that shit either. 

 For me, two of the most important parts of CA:CW are the head and the heart. If the Sokovia Accords are the head of the movie, then the relationships are the heart, whether it's the one between Tony & Steve, the one that's not between Tony & Pepper (at least for now), the bonds between parents and their kids, the unholy alliances between captors and their victims, the meaning of family, the loss of family and how that can affect one's life. Speaking of family, three main characters-Tony, King T'Challa & Zemo-all lost at least a part of their family while Steve tried to protect the closest thing he's got to it, aka Bucky. Performance-wise, as Tony Stark/Iron Man & Steve Rogers/Captain America, Robert Downey Jr. & Chris Evans were great as ever, as were Scarlett Johansson, Don Cheadle, Jeremy Renner & Anthony Mackie as Black Widow, Iron Patriot, Hawkeye & Falcon, respectively. Paul Bettany can do no wrong in my book and his Vision is no exception. Even in cheesy civilian clothes, Vision is still sexy. Elizabeth Olsen's Scarlet Witch is a great fit with the Avengers and she & Vision are cute together. 

 

  And how adorable is Paul Rudd? He's just the cutest thing, whether he's Scott Lang, Ant-Man or Giant-Man. Tom Holland's Peter Parker/Spider-Man is a pleasant suprise. When I first heard that Holland was the new Spidey, I was skeptical because I didn't think that he could do anything with the role that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield didn't do first and better, but he's brought a geeky fanboy charm to the role that almost stole the show, but not quite. That honor belongs to two other co-stars. The first is Chadwick Boseman as King T'Challa, aka Black Panther. Boseman is regal, commanding and a badass. Boseman is equally convincing as both the ruler of Wakanda and Black Panther, one of the newest Avengers. Boseman is arguably the best thing to happen to black catsuits since Black Widow and Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns. And then there's Sebastian Stan. His Bucky Barnes is awesome, to say the least. Bucky's not always right (to put it mildly), but he's always been sympathetic to me because I know that every crime that the Winter Soldier has committed was against Bucky's will. Bucky has been used/abused for decades, first by Hydra then by Zemo, but at least now Bucky not only knows it, he chose to do something about it, which was a choice that, because of Hydra & Zemo, he didn't have before. 

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, DollEyes said:

My verdict: what a blast! Captain America: Civil War  isn't just one of the best superhero movies of the year, it's one of the best superhero movies ever. Whose side am I on? Before the movie, I was team Cap & I still am. Tony does have some good points about having some rules, but government cooperation is one thing; government control is another. If I were an "enhanced" person and I was asked to sign an agreement which, to quote Beetlejuice, "Looked like stereo instructions" (The Handbook For the Recently Enhanced?), which said, among other things that if another country had an emergency and needed my help but didn't have time to ask the UN's permission, if I helped them anyway I could be arrested and if innocent people accidentally died I could be charged with murder? Aw, Hell no! I wouldn't sign that shit either.

I think the entire point of the Accords was that the Avengers weren't being asked to help, they were going wherever they wanted to pursue their own agenda without worrying about communicating with the local governments. They went into Lagos without sharing information with the Nigerian government and/or getting permission to operate within their borders and a bunch of Nigerian (and Wakandan) citizens died in the resulting crossfire. Realistically they should have been arrested for that, but were allowed to get by with a reprimand either out of gratitude for previous actions, because Stark greased the wheels for them, or because these governments were afraid of going up against the Avengers by themselves.

In the real world the idea that an American Weapon's manufacturer could fund his Dad's old Army buddy leading a militarized strike force that went around the world operating wherever they saw fit and the world would should be expected to just stand back and give them free reign because they know they're right would be absolutely absurd.

[stealinghome]

I don't disagree, but I also think the idea that a civilian population under attack and in need of help is going to have the time to type out a carefully-worded memo saying "Dear Avengers, plz come save us, we won't sue you for property damage, thanks" is equally absurd. The Avengers can't wait for a personally engraved invitation to every world-ending crisis or there's gonna be no world pretty soon. That's the point of the first Avengers movie.

I like the wording about cooperation vs control. I'm totally on-board with governmental cooperation. Total governmental control of the Avengers, otoh, is a terrible idea. (And this movie falls apart because cooperation is the obvious middle ground that the movie pretends doesn't exist to force the characters into a stupid conflict.)

Edited July 14, 2016 by stealinghome

[Raja]

10 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I don't disagree, but I also think the idea that a civilian population under attack and in need of help is going to have the time to type out a carefully-worded memo saying "Dear Avengers, plz come save us, we won't sue you for property damage, thanks" is equally absurd. The Avengers can't wait for a personally engraved invitation to every world-ending crisis or there's gonna be no world pretty soon. That's the point of the first Avengers movie.

I like the wording about cooperation vs control. I'm totally on-board with governmental cooperation. Total governmental control of the Avengers, otoh, is a terrible idea. (And this movie falls apart because cooperation is the obvious middle ground that the movie pretends doesn't exist to force the characters into a stupid conflict.)

The problem became that saving the world from an alien invasion, yes that vigilantes act before the nukes fly is a good thing. Tracking down criminals as shown in the beginning of Age of Ultron because  they had some alien tech we wanted to seize becomes more iffy. But then stopping an armed robbery team under the theory that their guns are too dangerous for the local police to handle or get involved in like Civil War started just crosses the line of sovereignty.

[Bruinsfan]

True, but there were mitigating circumstances in that situation: a known fascist terrorist and his goons armed with high tech weaponry (including that booby-trapped bomb vest) attacking what was presumably a government agency containment facility for deadly pathogens that could be used as weapons of mass destruction. If the Avengers hadn't been there, who's to say that the death toll wouldn't have been much higher once Nigerian authorities responded and Rumlow tried to shoot his way out? To say nothing of the potential of said WMD being deployed in Nigeria, or being released if the container were inadvertently broken during the escape attempt.

I think if the head of US diplomatic strategy had been a normal Secretary of State rather than a my-way-or-the-highway retired general who has a decade-long obsession with hunting down and imprisoning super-beings, points like those might have been raised and convinced the Nigerian government to sign off on the Avengers' presence after the fact.

[Which Tyler]

So you mean the avengers get a free pass on this one because of pure dumb luck?

After all, according to avengers intel (which they shared with nobody - and yes, they had plenty of time to) - Rumlow etc were going after a police station. They didn't even warn the police in that station that it was thought that they were about to be slaughtered and may want to defend themselves; they didn't consult with locals who could have told them about the labs just around the corner which would make a much better terrorist target; could be defended in the event of a known threat, and could simply remove the WMD aspect in about 5 minutes had the call come through - at some stage in the 16 hour flight from New York to Nairobi.

 

How long would it take Stark / Rogers or whoever else to pick up the phone, speak to someone in authority in Nairobi, to give them the intel as it stood, and say that we're putting a team in place to deal with it; do you want us to support or lead?

[stealinghome]

My issues with how the aftermath was framed aside, I'm not disagreeing that the team could have handled what happened in Nigeria better, but a reasonable reaction to what happened there isn't "we own your asses now, and you'll only do what we say when we say, or we'll throw your butts in jail and throw away the key alongside due process!"

Again--governmental cooperation, not control, is what the Avengers need. I think most of Team Cap would have agreed to some form of governmental cooperation--note that Steve comes closest to signing the Accords when Tony tells him that the Accords can become a dialogue with the UN, instead of a top-down "this is the way it is or else!" What Team Cap rejected was the heavy-handed, authoritarian attempt to implement absolute control (that the UN can't even realistically impose anyway).

Which is why the movie ultimately fails the logic test. The plot only works if too many smart people are made to act way stupid.

Edited July 14, 2016 by stealinghome

[Dandesun]

Also, Hydra really muddies up the waters... Hyrda is shockingly good at infiltration (see: Winter Soldier) and getting inside and corrupting governments and organizations. Hydra was about a second away from wiping out the US Government and many more besides and we all know that they have done damage over the decades in order make people fearful and paranoid and absolutely ready to turn over their choices for the sake of 'security' and 'order.'

The Avengers are not about toppling governments and taking over or anything like that. They tend to be focused on Hydra because Hydra is a huge threat to everyone.

But, as we've mentioned several times, it's really hard to take real world issues and apply them to superheroes and super threats. We don't have any real precedent to go on so it's all speculation.

[Amethyst]

On 5/10/2016 at 8:57 AM, frenchtoast said:

I completely understand Tony going off the rails and going after Bucky and to a lesser extent Steve at the end. Not only did have to watch that horrible video, he'd just had essentially whole week of shitty days. His oldest friend was paralyzed. He'd been trying to get this group of people that he clearly cares about to agree to something and it all ended so horribly. That airport fight had spiraled out of control and the scars are going to be there for a while. And while the wound is still fresh, he finds out about his mom and dad. He had even tried to help Bucky and Steve just before and boom--it comes out. It wasn't just his parents, it was everything. And he lost it. And I completely understand that he would want to utterly destroy Bucky for it. I didn't see it as character assassination. I see it as understanding there is only so much a human being can take before they just Hulk out and lose it. It was heartwrenching, it was so hard to watch. But it felt real and earned throughout the movie. But it was incredibly hard to watch.

So much this.  I finally saw the movie last night and couldn't pinpoint why I felt more for Tony than Steve, but this says it perfectly.  The thing is, Tony and Steve both react emotionally to things, Steve is just more measured about it.  Steve was content to beat the crap out of the Winter Soldier until he discovered who the WS was.  And once he knew, Steve did everything in his power to break through to Bucky.  This time, he did everything he could to bring in Bucky himself.

But what is different is that Steve had the benefit of hindsight, while Tony didn't.  Steve had the time to figure out what happened to Bucky, was able to organize a search, and even had other people helping him.  He's able to look at the situation rationally, because he's had time to process it.  Tony, however, learns in the span of a minute that not only did Bucky murder his parents, but Steve knew the whole time.  Him flipping out wasn't a shock at all.  That beatdown was a culmination of everything that had gone wrong since Ultron, but I think it was Steve keeping Tony in the dark about the truth that really set him off.  

Which is why Steve's letter to Tony rang a bit false to me at the end.  Steve is a good guy, but once again, he's had time to think about his actions and their consequences, so his letter to Tony was calm and reasonable.  And being calm when someone is furious can only infuriate them even more.  Hence Tony's "Sometimes I just want to punch you in your perfect teeth."

All in all, I really loved the movie.  Maybe even more than the Winter Soldier, because more characters were incorporated in the story.  The Russos had a real job ahead of them, but they did very well.  Loved GiAnt Man and Spiderman's intro.  T'Challa/Black Panther was everything.  Regal, powerful, vulnerable...I can't wait to see his movie.  

Count me in the party who was pissed with Ross and his cronies.  Particularly in New York, the Avengers were making an effort to keep civilians away from the damage.  

I also thought there were some jumpy bits in the beginning, particularly the scene when Zemo unleashed that shockwave thing that shut down the power.  The camera was practically jumping, and that stuff doesn't usually bother me anyway.

As someone who really didn't care about Sharon Carter before, I thought her scenes with Steve were sweet.  And the kiss didn't bother me.  Not just because Peggy was gone (sob) but because Steve was tired of waiting for the things he wanted.

Sam and Bucky are a great duo.  I could have watched them banter all day.

If Pepper really is out of the picture (which sucks because I liked her) then I'm all for Tony to hook up with Aunt May.  Yeah, I'm saying it, and it's not just because RDJ and Marisa Tomei were so cute in Only You.  

I'll probably add more later, but I'm so glad I saw this movie in theaters before it was gone.

[JustaPerson]

I don't think Steve knew that Bucky had killed Tony's parents. He knew that Hydra had had them killed and probably suspected that Bucky may have been the one to do it as the Winter Soldier, but I don't think it had been confirmed for him until they saw that video. 

[scriggle]

59 minutes ago, JustaPerson said:

I don't think Steve knew that Bucky had killed Tony's parents. He knew that Hydra had had them killed and probably suspected that Bucky may have been the one to do it as the Winter Soldier, but I don't think it had been confirmed for him until they saw that video. 

That's pretty much my take on it too. When Zola flashes the newspaper article on the computer screen in CAP2, Steve (& Natasha) had reason to suspect that HYDRA was responsible for the Starks' deaths. I think Steve may have learned that it was Bucky during the scene in the warehouse in Cap3 when Steve is asking Bucky what Zemo wanted from him. (Let's not even talk about how stupid it was that that video even existed. Master assassin/ghost Winter Soldier murders two people, sees the camera and shoots it but doesn't destroy the tape? Really?)

3 hours ago, Amethyst said:

But what is different is that Steve had the benefit of hindsight, while Tony didn't.  Steve had the time to figure out what happened to Bucky, was able to organize a search, and even had other people helping him.  He's able to look at the situation rationally, because he's had time to process it.  Tony, however, learns in the span of a minute that not only did Bucky murder his parents, but Steve knew the whole time.  Him flipping out wasn't a shock at all.  That beatdown was a culmination of everything that had gone wrong since Ultron, but I think it was Steve keeping Tony in the dark about the truth that really set him off.  

As far as Steve keeping the truth from Tony, prior to Cap3, all he (& Natasha) knew was Zola implied HYDRA was responsible. When Steve learned the truth, they were not really on speaking terms and I just can't blame Steve for not calling Tony and telling him under those circumstances. Tony also knew what had been done to Bucky.  He acknowledges it by calling him The Manchurian Candidate. I understand Tony flipping out initially but that he continued to be so irrationally bent on murder just doesn't seem right to me.  I would like to believe that after a minute or two he would've come to his senses.

[Perfect Xero]

For me it's the moment where Bucky is getting away, Tony's helmet has been damaged so the targeting is down. He pulls off the helmet and quips that he's going to "eyeball it". That's the moment where it went beyond, "Oh, he's lashing out because of the improbable video of plot contrivance and needs to calm down," to "Oh, he's still himself, he's just trying to murder a man."

For me, once that happened Tony absolutely needed to be the one to stop himself rather than forcing Cap to stop him in order for him to remain someone who Cap sends friendly letters to and who will be Peter's pal in the next Spider-Man movie. But they're apparently pushing forward like the whole thing wasn't really a big deal anyway.

[Amethyst]

12 minutes ago, scriggle said:

As far as Steve keeping the truth from Tony, prior to Cap3, all he (& Natasha) knew was Zola implied HYDRA was responsible. When Steve learned the truth, they were not really on speaking terms and I just can't blame Steve for not calling Tony and telling him under those circumstances. 

There was no right time to tell Tony the ugly truth, and I didn't envy Steve for having to do it.  But it was his job to do, and deciding not to was a mistake.  Especially since the truth came from Zola of all people, whose sole purpose was to tear the team apart.  Imagine how differently that scene would have gone if Tony had already known about what happened, instead of finding out in the 11th hour when everything else had gone wrong.

When Steve discovered the truth, I honestly don't know.  The events in Civil War happened six months after AoU, iirc.  But I don't buy that Steve never had the chance to tell Tony, assuming he's known for a while.  As it is, he's been searching for Bucky the whole time in secret, with only Sam and Natasha being the wiser.  I figure he didn't tell Tony after the disaster of Ultron, fearing that Tony would get involved and go overboard like he always does.  I don't blame Steve for that.  But once Howard and Maria entered the equation, things changed.  Even if he just wanted to let Tony know that HYDRA was behind it all, it would still come out that Bucky was the one who actually killed them.

Tony confronted Steve right after he saw the tape, and Steve initially said that he had suspected it was Bucky.  But after Tony grilled him further, Steve admitted that he had known.  Steve has wised up since TFA, but he's still pretty honest to a fault, and I don't think he would have told Tony he knew the truth if that wasn't the case.  Had he lied in the heat of the moment, he could have said later in his letter that yes, he had suspected, but he would have told Tony if he had known for sure that Bucky was the culprit.  Even Steve confessed that he had been trying to protect himself as well as Tony.  But it wasn't his right to keep the truth from Tony, regardless of how Tony would react.  

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I understand Tony flipping out initially but that he continued to be so irrationally bent on murder just doesn't seem right to me.  I would like to believe that after a minute or two he would've come to his senses.

Had everything not gone to shit earlier, I would have thought the same.  But given the circumstances, it made sense to me.  That's why I felt it was a buildup of everything that had already happened with Tony.  The moment that brawl went down in the airport hanger, Tony and Steve were enemies.  But when Tony realized he was wrong about Bucky having caused the UN incident, it looked like he wanted to try to set things right with Steve.  

And in the end, it wasn't just Bucky having killed Howard and Maria, it was Steve defending the man who killed Howard and Maria.

[scriggle]

15 hours ago, Amethyst said:

There was no right time to tell Tony the ugly truth, and I didn't envy Steve for having to do it.  But it was his job to do, and deciding not to was a mistake.  Especially since the truth came from Zola of all people, whose sole purpose was to tear the team apart.  Imagine how differently that scene would have gone if Tony had already known about what happened, instead of finding out in the 11th hour when everything else had gone wrong.

But at the end of Cap2, all Steve & Natasha had were suspicions that HYDRA was involved in the Starks' deaths.  They did not know for certain. And why is the onus on Steve to tell him? Natasha had the same information.

Now I'm guessing that Steve only learned that the Winter Soldier assassinated the Starks' after Zemo triggered him and Steve and Sam had him in trapped in the hydraulic press. That was when Steve asked Bucky what Zemo wanted.

Apparently there had been enough information in the SHIELD/HYDRA files Natasha dumped in Cap2 for Zemo to clue in that the Winter Soldier was involved in the Starks' deaths and that Howard had been transporting super-soldier serum at that time. Why didn't Tony find that info too? After all this is the man whose first action upon boarding the helicarrier in The Avengers is to hack into SHIELD's computer to find out what they're hiding. Tony Stark would have been all over that file dump. I can tell you why not: piss poor writing.

As for Steve telling Tony about Bucky's involvement, if Steve found out for sure during the scene mentioned above, exactly when could he have told Tony? The action seems to take place over a relatively short time span, just a few days. By that point Steve was trying to stop Zemo from activating the other super soldiers. Steve tried to tell Tony about Zemo's plans at the airport and Tony wouldn't listen. Was Steve than suppose to tell him hey by the way, the Winter Soldier killed your parents?

15 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Had everything not gone to shit earlier, I would have thought the same.  But given the circumstances, it made sense to me.  That's why I felt it was a buildup of everything that had already happened with Tony.  The moment that brawl went down in the airport hanger, Tony and Steve were enemies.  But when Tony realized he was wrong about Bucky having caused the UN incident, it looked like he wanted to try to set things right with Steve.  

And in the end, it wasn't just Bucky having killed Howard and Maria, it was Steve defending the man who killed Howard and Maria.

Tony realized he was wrong, went to Ross with proof and got laughed at.  Then Tony broke the Accords he just signed, without suffering any repercussions, proving Steve's point about them.  Tony knew Bucky had been brainwashed/tortured and used as a weapon with no agency of his own. He knew that and still decided murder was the best course of action. Like I said, I understand the initial reaction of violence. It's that Tony persisted in trying to murder a man he knew had not been acting of his own free will over the course of several minutes.

Of course Steve defended Bucky. What else was Steve supposed to do? Simply step aside and let Tony kill Bucky. That's not who Steve is. Take Bucky out of the equation and replace him with John Doe and Steve still would've defended him.

Edited August 3, 2016 by scriggle
punctuation & grammar

[Amethyst]

13 hours ago, scriggle said:

But at the end of Cap2, all Steve & Natasha had were suspicions that HYDRA was involved in the Starks' deaths.  They did not know for certain. And why is the onus on Steve to tell him? Natasha had the same information.

Because Bucky was Steve's friend, not Natasha's.  Natasha didn't have any ties to Bucky and if something happened to him, it wouldn't really affect her one way or the other.  Chances are, if Natasha told Tony what happened, he would ask why Steve hadn't told Tony himself.  

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Now I'm guessing that Steve only learned that the Winter Soldier assassinated the Starks' after Zemo triggered him and Steve and Sam had him in trapped in the hydraulic press. That was when Steve asked Bucky what Zemo wanted.

Apparently there had been enough information in the SHIELD/HYDRA files Natasha dumped in Cap2 for Zemo to clue in that the Winter Soldier was involved in the Starks' deaths and that Howard had been transporting super-soldier serum at that time. Why didn't Tony find that info too? After all this is the man whose first action upon boarding the helicarrier in The Avengers is to hack into SHIELD's computer to find out what they're hiding. Tony Stark would have been all over that file dump. I can tell you why not: piss poor writing.

That's fair about the writing.  I thought that Steve learned everything back when SHIELD went down.  But if he only learned about the Stark's murder and not Bucky's involvement, then I can see why he wouldn't have told Tony right off the bat.  But I still think he should have told Tony before they went to find Zemo.  For Zemo's plan to work, Tony had learn about the truth from him, not Steve.  And Zemo got exactly what he wanted.

 

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Tony knew Bucky had been brainwashed/tortured and used as a weapon with no agency of his own. He knew that and still decided murder was the best course of action. Like I said, I understand the initial reaction of violence. It's that Tony persisted in trying to murder a man he knew had not been acting of his own free will over the course of several minutes.

Tony knew about the brainwashing before he even walked in and he didn't have any intentions on harming Bucky.  It was only when he found out about what had happened to the Starks that he went into a blind rage.  It wasn't like he sat down and calmly decided what to do next.  When an emotional bombshell hits like that, logic and reasoning can go out the window.  

Quote

Of course Steve defended Bucky. What else was Steve supposed to do? Simply step aside and let Tony kill Bucky. That's not who Steve is. Take Bucky out of the equation and replace him with John Doe and Steve still would've defended him.

I'm aware that Steve would have protected Bucky or anyone else regardless.  What I meant was that from Tony's perspective, Steve was protecting the man who killed his parents.  I'm not excusing Tony's actions.  Bucky was just as much a victim as the Starks had been.  I just get why Tony reacted the way he did, and why he didn't let up.  

Edited August 4, 2016 by Amethyst

[scriggle]

9 hours ago, Amethyst said:

I thought that Steve learned everything back when SHIELD went down.  But if he only learned about the Stark's murder and not Bucky's involvement, then I can see why he wouldn't have told Tony right off the bat.  But I still think he should have told Tony before they went to find Zemo.  For Zemo's plan to work, Tony had learn about the truth from him, not Steve.  And Zemo got exactly what he wanted.

Again my question is when could he have told Tony? At the airport? Where Tony was intent on arresting him even after Steve tried to explain about Zemo and the other super-soldiers? Tony wasn't listening and telling him about his parents would've made a bad situation even worse. Plus then there's be no one going after Zemo.

As for Zemo's plan, well that's another example of piss-poor writing. His plan was so convoluted and so damn complex, it was ridiculous.  He could've had the same results simply by releasing the video on the internet.  But then there wouldn't have been a movie.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree that there was a time where Steve could've told Tony during the film.

9 hours ago, Amethyst said:

It was only when he found out about what had happened to the Starks that he went into a blind rage.  It wasn't like he sat down and calmly decided what to do next.  When an emotional bombshell hits like that, logic and reasoning can go out the window.  

It's still not an excuse for murdering an innocent man.

9 hours ago, Amethyst said:

I'm aware that Steve would have protected Bucky or anyone else regardless.  What I meant was that from Tony's perspective, Steve was protecting the man who killed his parents.  I'm not excusing Tony's actions.  Bucky was just as much a victim as the Starks had been.  I just get why Tony reacted the way he did, and why he didn't let up.  

Again I understand his initial reaction of violence. It was the prolonged nature of it that was beyond the pale. He was aware enough of his actions to keep telling Steve to stand down. He was prepared to kill Steve to get to Bucky. If Tony knew Steve at all, he'd have known that Steve was not only protecting Bucky but he was also trying to protect Tony from himself, protect him from doing something Tony would (hopefully) later regret. So no Tony doesn't get a pass on that from me.

Edited August 4, 2016 by scriggle
spelling

[ChelseaNH]

7 minutes ago, scriggle said:

It's still not an excuse for murdering an innocent man.

Legally, it constitutes diminished capacity, which would mean he would be charged with a lesser offense (assuming he was ever charged, which is a whole 'nother arena for speculation).

The IronMan movies showed us a lot about Tony's relationship with his father, but they never mentioned his mother.  From his flashback scene at MIT, it looks like she provided him with the unconditional love and emotional support that he was missing from his father.  I find it extremely telling that Tony's words before launching his attack were "he killed my mom."  His father's death no doubt left him unmoored, but his mother's death must have ripped his heart out.

[scriggle]

11 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

Legally, it constitutes diminished capacity, which would mean he would be charged with a lesser offense (assuming he was ever charged, which is a whole 'nother arena for speculation).

The IronMan movies showed us a lot about Tony's relationship with his father, but they never mentioned his mother.  From his flashback scene at MIT, it looks like she provided him with the unconditional love and emotional support that he was missing from his father.  I find it extremely telling that Tony's words before launching his attack were "he killed my mom."  His father's death no doubt left him unmoored, but his mother's death must have ripped his heart out.

Legally, yes. Morally, no. IMHO  And yeah, the whole billionaire aspect would probably ensure he'd never have been charged if he had succeeded.

But if T'Challa, whose grief is still so fresh, could decide NOT kill Zemo, Tony should've been able to get enough control over himself after his initial violent outburst to stop trying to kill Bucky, a man he knew had tortured/brainwashed for YEARS and had been used as a weapon. Tony could still be pissed at Steve and feel betrayed by Steve but it's still not an excuse for cold-blooded murder. The only person in that last fight trying to kill anyone was Tony, he was the aggressor.

[ChelseaNH]

T'Challa was trained as a champion for his people; he associates his power with a certain philosophy and a certain set of responsibilities (he's very similar to Steve that way).  Tony came to his power in very different circumstances, and is more accustomed to thinking in terms of what he can do than what he should do.  He likes to think of himself as a rational person and, like many intelligent people, doesn't easily recognize the influence of emotion in his thought processes.

Which is not to say that Tony was on the right side of any argument; just that he was acting in a way consistent with what we've seen of his character.

[Bruinsfan]

Oh yeah, while I have a laundry list of criticisms to level at Stark, I have none for the filmmakers regarding his actions not being in character. I can easily see him making every blind, self-important choice he makes throughout the entire movie.

[JessePinkman]

Tony also saw his mother murdered seconds before he tried to kill Bucky, who knows how T'Challa would have reacted immediately after his father's death and not days later?

One of the best things about this movie is the discussion it's facilitated even months later. That's the sign of a strong film to me.

[JustaPerson]

Maybe a better ending for the film would have been if Tony stopped trying to beat Steve and kill Bucky once he realized that both he and Steve's BFFs were named James?

...

I'll leave now

[Dandesun]

Alas, the name James is very common in the MCU. Most particularly in Steve's life. I think that all of the Howling Commandos were named James (even Jacques is the French equivalent) except for Dum Dum (his name is Timothy) and Gabe. Everyone else? James. James Buchanan Barnes, James Montgomery Falsworth, James 'Jim' Morita. Jacques Dernier.

Here a James, there a James, everywhere a James James!!

Then you've got Rhodey, too.

"Hey, my best friend's name is James, too!"

"EVERYONE'S NAME IS JAMES!!"

[Kel Varnsen]

Finally saw it this past weekend. It was really good, although I think I preferred Winter Soldier.

As far as the Accords debate, probably have to be on the Iron Man side. I can see how it is easy to side with Cap, because he is a pretty righteous, good person. At the same time, if Cap can decide that he is above the law, then what about someone like The Punisher, he feels he is doing the right thing just as much as Cap. Hell, what if Crossbones said that he was stealing that biological weapon because he needed to liberate it from the untrustworthy government that was controlling it? That's sort of the thing for me, laws kind of have to apply to everyone.

I did like how the conflict was about Bucky though, since otherwise Cap could have just retired and basically waited for the UN to beg him to come out of retirement next time there was a big attack.

Liked seeing Spidey show up, and I thought Marissa Tomei was a cool Aunt May. Her being younger worked for me since she can actually be part of the plot of the movie, not just some old lady who makes Peter some warm milk or something. Plus I know in the comics that May usually looked like a really old lady, but at the same time she was created in 1962. Back then you have to think that people lived harder lives and generally looked older. Marissa Tomei is 51, if this was 1962 she would have lived through 2 world wars and the depression.  Factor in the number of people who smoked back then and the fact that they didn't really have sunscreen and 1962 Aunt May and I can see Aunt May looking way older than she actually is.

Also liked seeing The Dean from Community show up. Considering we had Abed in Winter Soldier and Troy is going to be Spider-man maybe we can get Alison Brie in Infinity War.

Only thing I didn't really like was it seemed like Everett K Ross was too important in his job. It would have worked better for me if he was some sort of middle management type, who was an expert in Wakanda who had something to prove.

[benteen]

Quote

As far as the Accords debate, probably have to be on the Iron Man side. I can see how it is easy to side with Cap, because he is a pretty righteous, good person. At the same time, if Cap can decide that he is above the law, then what about someone like The Punisher, he feels he is doing the right thing just as much as Cap. Hell, what if Crossbones said that he was stealing that biological weapon because he needed to liberate it from the untrustworthy government that was controlling it? That's sort of the thing for me, laws kind of have to apply to everyone.

I still support Cap in the argument but your points are valid.  I don't blame Cap for not wanting the government to control them and the events of The Winter Soldier back that up.  At the same time, I greatly dislike his "the safest hands are our own" belief of his.  It's arrogant and presumptuous.  Natasha made a similar point when she testified in front of Congress in the Winter Soldier (thought it was ridiculous for that Congressman to be bitching about her removing Shield when the government had allowed it to be completely corrupted and taken over). 

[Dandesun]

Cap said that the 'safest hands are still our own' which I always took to mean that over-sight wasn't something he was entirely against, it's just that there wasn't anyone qualified to oversee them based on very real, very recent MCU history. I suppose it sounds arrogant but given the scope of the MCU at large I find it far more practical than, you know, Hydra-infiltrated organizations, governments with direct ties to terrorists and over-sight committees who prefer to nuke first and ask questions later.

[Kel Varnsen]

I just think it is pretty hypocritical of Cap to say he isn't going to follow the rule of law, but at the same time he will use force to stop other law breakers. 

I think part of the problem is comic book heroes are usually fighting for something where they are obviously right. I always thought it would be interesting for super heroes to pick a more questionable fight. Like getting Russia out of the Ukraine, or overthrowing Saddam pre-US invasion of Iraq, or taking a side in Isreal.

As far as Tony trying to kill Bucky at the endm I'm not sure as simple as saying Bucky was under mind control so Tony shouldn't blame him for Howard and Maria's deaths. Because in Winter Soldier Bucky wss under mind control, but he still had enough control to not kill Cap at the end but actually save his life. So if I'm Tony i would be wondering why Bucky couldn't fight off the brain washing before 1991.

[stealinghome]

Because Steve wasn't there to jog any of Bucky's memories and remind the Winter Soldier of his real identity.

[scriggle]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

As far as Tony trying to kill Bucky at the endm I'm not sure as simple as saying Bucky was under mind control so Tony shouldn't blame him for Howard and Maria's deaths. Because in Winter Soldier Bucky wss under mind control, but he still had enough control to not kill Cap at the end but actually save his life. So if I'm Tony i would be wondering why Bucky couldn't fight off the brain washing before 1991.

In Cap2, Bucky wasn't able to break free of the brainwashing on his own.  It was seeing Steve that made it happen.

Bucky had known Steve practically his whole life. Per the Smithsonian exhibit. "Best friends since childhood, Bucky Barnes and Steve Rogers were inseparable on both schoolyard and battlefield."

So yeah, Steve's presence on the street when he first encounters the Winter Soldier is enough to put a small crack in the brainwashing as evidenced in the scene in the vault.  Bucky asks who the man the bridge was. He says twice "I knew him." Then he's wiped.  On the helicarrier in that final fight, it takes Steve saying "I'm with you 'til the end of the line." Saying to Bucky the words Bucky had said to him after his mother's funeral for a glimmer of recognition to occur.

There's about two years between Bucky being rescued by Steve in Azzano and when he falls from the train.  But we have no idea how well Bucky and Howard knew each other. They obviously did but how close could they have been seeing as Steve and the Howling Commandos were running missions during that time.  That relationship would not have had the same emotional depth as the one he had with Steve to break through the brainwashing.

In the end Tony was still trying to murder someone he knew had been tortured and brainwashed for decades. If Tony was thinking rationally enough to think that Bucky was at fault because he didn't break through the brainwashing sooner, then well that's even worse to me.

[Dandesun]

I think it's pretty much a given that Steve is the only person on the planet that would have succeeded in breaking Bucky's programming. Those boys are tight and it goes back their entire lives. Howard was never going to be remotely close to that. And hell... Howard only knew Bucky as Steve's right hand. What's more, Howard wasn't on the front line fighting with Steve and Bucky and the rest of the Commandos. So, no, Howard would not have broken through decades upon decades of Hydra programming and brain washing. Obviously... since the Asset didn't even flinch when Howard said 'Sgt. Barnes?'

Meanwhile... on a bridge in DC... "Bucky?" "Who the hell is Bucky?" followed by this really strange panic in his eyes and then a full on FLASHBACK of the fall in the Alps and Steve reaching for him and screaming his name and 'I knew him.'

I've always gotten a kick out of the idea that Steve refusing to fight on the Hellicarrier (you know, after he saved a million lives) confused Bucky even more given that Steve was the one who was always getting into trouble when they were young. "You stopped fighting... you never did that in your stupid life! I had no idea what that was about!" But, more than that, it was Steve dropping the shield and removing his helmet and being STEVE rather than Captain America that made the Asset shift into Bucky again.

And we all know it was pure Bucky instinct that made him dive into the Potomac after Steve. "Must. Protect. Steve." counteracts any Hydra programming when the chips are down. Hell, one-armed and lying on the floor, he grappled with Tony's boot to keep him from repulsor ray-ing Steve. Steve and Bucky would do anything for each other, that's bone deep, in the very core of them. No relationship with a Stark even comes close to that.

[Bruinsfan]

Bear in mind, Steve also finally got through to Bucky after multiple tries and taking a beating that would have turned Howard Stark into a corpse by three blows in. Even if some of Bucky's compatriots in the 107th might have been close enough to him to potentially crack the brainwashing (were any of them still alive by the time of Winter Soldier?), they probably wouldn't have survived the experience.

[VCRTracking]

Blooper reel:

Vision and Scarlet Witch featurette:

Black Panther featurette:

Bucky/Winter Soldier featurette:

Edited August 26, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Dandesun]

I don't know why necessarily but the brief shot of Evans and Stan going underwater might just be too cute for words. Maybe it's the big deep breath Stan takes... maybe it's the way Evans is holding his nose... I don't even know. It's just freaking adorable.

[scriggle]

 I agree, @Dandesun. There's just something about it that makes it really adorkable. They're so in sync going under.  Plus Evans looks about twelve;  I think it's his hair.

[Dandesun]

Nah, it's the nose holding that makes him look young. Well, that and the grin. The whole thing is hilarious. For all that we know what it is (Steve saving Bucky after pulling the helicopter out of the sky) that brief clip looks like some summer camp comedy.

Also, Sebastian Stan's hair is really... I mean... was it made by the gods because it's ridiculously good all of the time. It ain't right.