S06.E10: Game Over, Charles

[KimberleyJade321]

Where did you get that info? Wiki?

 

Well it didn't seem to add up in my head and then I found a fan website with all the info and honestly hardcore fans who make websites like this rarely have the info wrong. http://pretty-little-liars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

[lunastartron]

King and company made such a narrative quagmire of the plot that there was no way all mysteries were going to be satisfyingly (or even, apparently, unsatisfyingly) resolved. What's disturbing about the main questions (who killed Jessica? Why did Sara participate in Charlotte's scheme?) left unanswered is that Marlene doesn't even allude to addressing them in the forthcoming arc . . . I don't think the transgender element was opportunistic or attributable to the recent predominance of Caitlyn Jenner in the news. Slashers - which are the closest siblings to this series among cinematic genres as opposed to straight mysteries - are classically premised on perpetuating and subverting dilemmas of sexual politics ie the protagonists are necessarily female because abject terror, an inherent aspect of the plot, is less societally palatable in men. The villains are frequently men whose "masculinity" is in crisis (Dressed to Kill, etc). With the homage to Psycho in the first A reveal (Mona's internal monologue in the police station), it is unsurprising that production elected to go with a standard trope of pop culture. That, of course, doesn't reconcile the problematic dimensions and stereotypes involved in said decision but the antecedents of this show are similarly bipolar in other sociopolitical considerations (the slasher model is almost compulsorily misogynistic but can at the same time be quite feminist).

[itainttippithebird]

 

What's disturbing about the main questions (who killed Jessica? Why did Sara participate in Charlotte's scheme?) left unanswered is that Marlene doesn't even allude to addressing them in the forthcoming arc

 

She has said in interviews that she will address them in the next season, FWIW...

[M1977G]

 

She has said in interviews that she will address them in the next season, FWIW...

Her word seems worth little at this point.  She lies to her audience all the time, and I agree with a poster upthread that these lies have broken much of the audience's trust.  That said, it seems impossible that the show would end without addressing who killed Mrs. D.  I still think it's Veronica Hastings, the person with the biggest motive whom the police never even seemed to suspect--which makes her mighty suspicious to me.

 

Some points of confusion on my part:  How did CeCe take "control" of the A game--what did she threaten Mona with to make Mona into an A minion/lackey?  Did she really?  The way Charlotte told it this episode, she said she'd play the game with Mona, which is entirely different.  Did CeCe know Mona had killed Bethany and was blackmailing her?  I couldn't help but notice that Mona was wearing a red hooded cape (because the prom servers weren't wearing trench coats?), and she stayed behind when the other liars fled A's brain/lair, claiming she wanted to know "how the story ends."  This ain't story time, girl.   I also couldn't help but notice that Mona showed up with full dramatic makeup, even though she was wearing a mask.  So very Mona, and hello, red eye shadow.  It looked a little crazy to me, and perhaps a clue that Mona never lost sight of the A game/control.  Or it's just that there was a lot of unflattering makeup in the episode/at Rosewood's prom.  

 

Also, how did Mrs. D just know how to find a dirty cop to pay off?  Did she have previous dirty dealings with Wilden?  Why did the episode try to redeem her as a desperately loving mother?  Burying one daughter alive--without even checking to see if she's dead--in order to "protect" another kid she's kept locked away and a secret from the world does not scream mother of the year.  Neither does leaving your baby in the house with a possibly disturbed young child while you garden and chat up the neighbors.  Even if you accept your child's sexuality--that doesn't get Jessica D any gold stars in my book.  The actress who plays her is at her best, and most convincing, when she's a little bit sinister with her kids, like convincing them to believe in and tell lies.  Jason, this is your real father, CeCe is your girlfriend and not your sister, and no, you never had a playmate named Charlie.  I won't even get into the transgender issues.  I'm still mulling that over, but it is not sitting very well with me right now, mostly for reasons others posted above.

 

Is Tanner a dirty cop or not?  Or did Sarah just not call her?

 

Also, if Aria gets with Noel Kahn in the books, why the fuck didn't we get to see years of Noel Kahn, and instead have to watch Aria dirty dance around her high school teacher/creepy spy for years?  I never read the books, but to find out upthread that there was real potential for so much more Noel Kahn (you really do have to use his full name!) on screen--this might be the thing that has me most angry with the writers right now!  OK, not exactly, but close.

[jjjmoss]

NAWT mArlene trying out perpetual hyperreality-sized excuses to try to cover up plot holes:

 

Flashbacks are always interpretive. It’s like, there was a flashback of Toby, and he looks like he’s 30 [laughs]. It’s assumed that they were teenagers in that flashback because our actors were playing them and that’s how your mind might see a flashback when you are the character thinking back — but they weren’t teenagers. What you saw on the roof was real.

No! You done messed up and now you're being called out on it; stop lying. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by jjjmoss

[william0102]

Yeah, I made the same connection upthread last night. It was that moment - her looking in the mirror and admiring her own beauty (in the context of saying something about how of course Jason was in love with her because she's so pretty) -  that I felt there was no redeeming the harm of this plot point. I also wondered (again, somewhere upthread) of that moment was INTENDED as an allusion to Silence of the Lambs, and if so, how they could POSSIBLY think, then, that this is a defendable representation of trans women!

 

So basically, yes, co-signed, and I don't know why queer critics like Heather Hogan, Jacob Clifton, etc aren't MORE pissed about this turn of the events. It's irredeemable, in my eyes, and believe me, I've been TRYING to find some redemption, because I love this show with all my heart.

 This thread goes so fast, I have a hard time catching every post, but I'm glad you saw it too. Part of me wants to say that they couldn't have chosen to make the reference, but I also think of all the literary and movie allusions/parallels, and I have to wonder. (Which is another way of saying that they haven't earned any trust with a trans character)

The reason Heather and Jacob aren't pissed is because the lesbian and gay communities are more accepted mainstream. They're not still fighting for accurate representation. I'm not trying to be devisive, but it's true. There are still people that think that being gay/lesbian is wrong, but not near the amount of hate and transphobia that trans individuals face. What killed me was Heather trying to say it wasn't the best time for a trans char to be introduced, but hinting that the representation was good because CeCe is basically the ultimate example of the theme of women fighting for agency on PLL. That just blew my mind. 

Just no. no. You can't take another community's struggles and turn them into a shining example on the fight for women's rights. Not when we know this was for shock, not when trans people have so little representation. I honestly think they should be ashamed, but this is just another thing to highlight the division between the lesbian and gay community vs the bt+ communities.

[jjjmoss]

And it must be said that there are definitely groups of Lesbians who don't get along with Gay men and vice versa. 

[william0102]

Exactly. I'm not saying the fight against homophobia is over, but it's a lot easier to focus on issues specific to things other than your sexuality when it's not a constant struggle to be viewed as a person over your perceived sex/the stigma on the bisexual community, etc.

[tldryolo]

MTV: Now, there’s a certain flashback scene we need to talk about, where Toby recalls having this conversation with his mother, and Ali is there and they’re both teenagers. However, as we see in the finale, both Charlotte and Bethany were very young when Toby’s mother died. Is this telling us that Charlotte is an unreliable narrator?

King: Flashbacks are always interpretive. It’s like, there was a flashback of Toby, and he looks like he’s 30 [laughs]. It’s assumed that they were teenagers in that flashback because our actors were playing them and that’s how your mind might see a flashback when you are the character thinking back — but they weren’t teenagers. What you saw on the roof was real.

 

 

 

This is completely wrong because dialogue also establishes that the rooftop scene is hopelessly out of sequence... unless the intent of this is that the characters on the roof were actually teenagers but didn't appear as such because... no I'm not trying to rationalize this.

[RedInk]

I'm not seeing how any "clues" lead to CeCe as A. They just worked backward to try and make it match up, which is why there are so many inconsistencies and age gaps. they could have done the same with literally any of the lesser characters.

Edited August 13, 2015 by RedInk

[fitzcarraldo]

The soul room doesn't make sense either. Why would Cece want to memorialize Charles when she doesn't see herself as Charles?

[Jenniferbug]

I signed up for Hulu Plus for this crap?! We cancelled our cable and I was so bummed to miss the reveal...that was so not worth the 8 bucks. Bright side: I won't be bummed to be missing 6B (though I will still read along here)

Many of you have already said why the transgender plot is terrible, so I won't add much. Wouldn't it have made more sense for Cece to always have been a mentally disturbed older sister-one who acted out against baby Ali because she felt she was being replaced? And I'm not sure the bath was the first incident, as I think Kenneth said something like "there have been other incidents" after they committed Charles to Radley.

Loathe as I am to defend Ezra, but maybe it was BECAUSE Cece was on his payroll that he didn't catch onto her. It would be easy for Cece to manipulate him and keep him from finding her out if she had access to his research and was trusted by him. However that's really just a lucky coincidence, as there's no way they had this planned way back then.

The only person I feel sorry for is Jason. He gets brainwashed by his parents and has inadvertently dated two of his sisters. What a nightmare.

This episode made such a mess of the timeline. Is it that damn difficult to keep the continuity on your show straight? If it is then I'm not sure Marlene is qualified to run a show. There are no producers, assistants, editors who can keep it straight when that's part of their job? Fans can do it, why can't the people who are paid to work on this show?

[SadieT]

NAWT mArlene trying out perpetual hyperreality-sized excuses to try to cover up plot holes:

No! You done messed up and now you're being called out on it; stop lying.

She makes no sense. Who are we assuming are teenagers? Charlotte and Bethany or Toby and Ali? The problem is that if Charlotte and Bethany were teens then Toby and Ali had to be much younger, like around 8 if Charlottes was around 14 in that roof flashback, so unless Toby and Ali were supposed to be 8 years old when they almost kiss in Toby's house before his mom interrupts, which lol could you imagine that's what Marlene is trying to say, then no nothing makes sense.

[fitzcarraldo]

First Secret wasn't a perspective flashback. It is mentioned by Emily to Toby his mom died a year ago.

[Mabinogia]

I, too, felt most bad for Jason. Charles, IMO, was the lucky one who got out of that nuthouse (and I mean the DeLaurentis house, which I think contained way more crazy than Radley ever could). First Jason is convinced that his brother never existed and was all in his head, then he ends up dating her! How does that not fuck a person up? Sure, he didn't know it at the time, but still he's about to find out.

 

Not sure how I feel about it all, I think making CeCe transgender was unnecessary. Actually, I think it would have been better if she'd been a girl all along. It would better explain her obsession with Ali because she'd think "why didn't they want me but they wanted her? We were both their daughter". I hate that they basically made her transgender to try to stop us from guessing it was CeCe which pretty much failed since I recall quite a few of us guessing that.

 

The worst thing about this ep, however, was that I watch this show almost solely for the girls' friendship and all we really got was them watching Ali listen to CeCe tell us not really all that much that we couldn't have guessed.

[Chaos Theory]

Because i think most people belief that the episode is transphobic is unfair I am putting up a neutral review of the episode which I agree with and needs to be said.  I really do think everyone is going overboard with the transphobic stuff.

 

Was Pretty Little Liars 'A' Reveal Transphobic?

 

​A lot of "The Defense" is what I have been trying badly to say myself.  

[Sakura12]

I haven't seen anyone here say the episode was transphobic. I don't think the episode was. It does bother me that they seem to have made CeCe trans because they needed a shock, not because they wanted to tell a trans story.

 

If you want to see a trans story watch Sense8 on Netflix they actually told a story about a Trans woman and the struggles she faced with her mother and the LGBT community and they told it like the stories of the other 8 characters. None of the shocks on that show had anything to do with her being Trans. 

[itainttippithebird]

I will say in Heather Hogan's defense that she is generally super on point with trans issues and doesn't tend to be myopic in her views about what constitutes queer justice/representation/etc. I just think she's overinvested in the PLL team to the point that she's willing to forgive something that I think she wouldn't normally forgive. She spent the last year on twitter saying please please PLEASE don't let this be a trans storyline, but then when it actually went down, she had mixed feelings about it.

 

I'm totally on board with your anger, william0102 - I'm livid. But I wanted to make sure I'm fairly characterizing her.

 

I haven't seen anyone here say the episode was transphobic.

 

For the record, I ABSOLUTELY think the episode was transphobic.

[Sakura12]

For the record, I ABSOLUTELY think the episode was transphobic.

 

Ok, to each his/her own. I just don't see a lot of that complaint, over it just being used as a shock because they've used every other shocking twist ever. 

[itainttippithebird]

I dunno, I feel like there's been a lot of complaint in this thread and the ones around it that this relied on some very tired, very damaging stereotypes of trans people, trans women in particular.

[Cranberry]

I think that instead of talking about whether or not people should be offended, all of us who are not trans need to hear from some trans people about how they feel about it. There are some good comments on Heather Hogan's latest recap, including: 

 

PLL really hurt me in a way that it’s never hurt me before last night. Sure, I’ve been angry and upset about storylines before. But here I was, as a closeted (to most people) trans woman watching this show with my mom and feeling numb and trying not to cry at the incredibly harmful thing that was happening on my TV screen.

 

...

 

Along with trans women getting murdered in this country left and right, you also have the conservatives raging about how young trans girls shouldn’t even be allowed to use the correct restrooms at their schools because of how much of a threat we are to their daughters. So, to reveal that the person who has been torturing these five teenage girls for so many years is a trans woman is incredibly irresponsible.

 

 

This episode pisses me off now as an adult, but it would have really fucked me up if I was watching it at fifteen.

Because growing up a trans girl, almost everything in media and culture pushes you to view yourself as a monster. You’re the bogeyman (and I do mean *man*) who’s going to hurt an innocent family’s young girls by going into the bathroom with them. The only way you’re ever going to get anyone to sleep with you is if you trick them. You’re probably violent, or at least prone to violent outbursts that are (of course) fueled by your jealous rage at never having gotten to be a *real girl.* Your violence will almost always be directed at cis women. You are either a pawn in someone else’s evil scheme, or you’re the mastermind yourself. Either way, you are a powder-keg waiting to go off, twisted by the unfairness of your inherently sad, pathetic life.

 

I’m wise enough now to know that those tropes are bullshit. I’ve done the hard work of unlearning most of them, and I’m a much stronger person as a result. But that kind of stuff leaves scars.

 

I’m beyond furious, however, to think of young trans girls watching this and receiving all those messages at once.

 

 

As someone who was pretty badly traumatized by Silence of the Lambs years back as a trans girl, I am too sick of this for words.

 

The fact that this is the most nuanced Silence of the Lambs bullshit to ever make it onscreen doesn’t change the fact that that’s still the same old thing we’ve been dealing with all these years.

 

Portray a number of trans folks on your show? Cool, make one or two of them villains, whatever. If you only have the one, then we’re right back to Silence of the Lambs, and it hurts. Please, just don’t.

 

Despite whatever merits this show has, it’s dead to me now.

 

I edited the comments down to just the gist, but you can read the full comments and many more on the recap.

[Mabinogia]

Thank you for posting those comments. It is hard as someone who is not and does not know anyone transgender to realize the full impact of this "shocking" (but not really because some here actually thought it could happen) reveal. It really sucks that they would be so careless just so we wouldn't guess who A was.

[william0102]

The episode was transphobic. I'll say it as many times as you want. Ask a trans person that watched the episode, and they'll say the same.

We had a plot twist for the sake of either A) shock value or B) Marlene and co got upset that their A pick was guessed. So the trans plot is strictly not for organic character growth (cuz the plot holes, guys, the plot holes), and CeCe is a trans trope because her motivation didn't even really make sense. 

itainttippithebird, I normally wouldn't be so hard on Heather; however, people like Heather and Jacob, AfterEllen, etc are basically the media outlets that are read/heard when it comes to lgbtq+ matters, so for people who know what it's like to be degraded, ridiculed and misrepresented, yeah I'm mad. They're basically leaving the trans community out to dry. If gay and lesbian people can argue that it's not transphobic, or at least not seriously question if this plot could be harmful, then why should the average, uninformed of bt+ issues, understand that trans people aren't crazy, that the representation could be hurtful and harmful? How long until they say "trans is everywhere, I'm tired of hearing about it?" (and I've literally seen comments just like that) when there is still so much hate and misinformation when it comes to trans issues?

[itainttippithebird]

Totally get it, William0102, and totally support your anger and feel it, too. Thank you for having the wherewithal to engage in these forums around something so difficult - <3 your perspective on all this.

Edited August 13, 2015 by itainttippithebird

[Sakura12]

It was a horrible representation, but for me CeCe being Trans was used for shock value not for prejudice against Trans people. I don't think they were saying that CeCe was mentally ill because she was trans, she's trans and happens to also be mentally ill. I'm not trans and can't pretend to know what they are going through and if they are outraged then Marlene King should've thought harder about that choice and if it was really worth the shock value. 

[Jenniferbug]

Ok so the whole A team was Cece, Sara, and sometimes Mona? That's it? So then what the heck was going on with the shadiness of Melissa, Wren, Lucas, Jenna, Shauna, Sydney (?the Jenna look alike)...and what was that whole NAT club thing about then if not tied to A?

And as pointed out in the recap, how did Cece become so tech savvy and pull off even half of what she did without a computer in her room at Radley?

[fitzcarraldo]

I couldn't finish reading Heather Hogan's recap. Placing the blame entirely on Kenneth was ludicrous. Jessica was the one who actively framed Spencer for a crime she knew she was innocent of. Manipulating Bethany to curry favor with her next affair. She knew how Cece felt about Bethany. Ken didn't make Cece fake her death, let Jason date his sister unaware, etc. What stopped her from leaving Ken? Charles could have been raised in a home with Jessica. Ken was a total jerk of Tom Marin proportions but Jessica was demonstrating those A qualities of it is ok to ruin lives to get what I want. This isn't patriarchal society male gaze stuff, it is self serving jerkoffishness. I don't think Mona is any kind of hero either. It always bugs me that autostraddle, after Ellen and forever young adult pitch her as their queen. Great character but far, far, far from society made me do it victim. Taking life's disappointments out on others in a forced suicide pact is effed up. Cece the victim and Ken the ultimate big bad? Heck no. Hogan often irritated me in her defense of Toby and all other guys like Caleb were mansplaining advantage takers.

[tldryolo]

I am agnostic on whether this is transphobic, but I can imagine why it would be very frustrating to be a trans person and have the only person on the show who is trans be the big bad (in addition to being an all around shitty person).  My aforementioned ex-girlfriend, who is black, is also a bit frustrated that two of the only black characters turned out to be a killer (Nate) and an unconnected-to-A-but-still-crazy-person (Shauna).  That is somewhat ameliorated by the presence of Clark, I guess, but still-- if all your characters with characteristic X are bad people, then perhaps you should either reconsider whether characteristic X is really necessary or add more non-villains with characteristic X.  

 

With that being said, this is pretty much just how PLL rolls.  We are seriously one Caleb away from there being no positive depictions of men on this show, and they tried to ship him off to Ravenswood.  I don't think it's so much a question of any intentional bias against trans people as yet another artifact of the show being poorly written.  

 

... speaking of Clark, I guess we'll never find out why he was meeting with that red herring from the whatever foundation.  So it goes, I guess.

[WhitneyWhit]

I tried to watch this again today with a clear mind and couldn't, it's just too awful.

 

Didn't Marlene say that A would be someone who was in the first episode?

 

I would really like to know if we're supposed to just forget that Alison was basically a sociopath who took joy in making other people's lives miserable, that's why I can't get into the Alison as victim story, or have any sympathy for her because Alison was a horrible person.

[Sakura12]

They try to make every psycho or stalker a victim on this show. Mona, Alison, Ezra and now CeCe. Lots of people have traumas and don't turn into psychos. They are victims but they have also made other people victims. They can be forgiven if people want to, but what they've done should never forgotten. Everyone should always be wary of their intentions and question them. 

[M1977G]

I'm still mulling this CeCe-trans business over.  I appreciate very much the post that included the responses of trans viewers to the episode--thank you for sharing those and the link.  What I do feel certain about is that, for me, claiming that CeCe/Charlotte/Charles is a mentally ill person "who happens to be trans" is a convenient divide that doesn't work.  From the start, issues of her sexuality and identity were "family problems," at least among Kenneth, Jessica, and C/C/C, and according to this episode, part of the reason Kenneth wanted his child put in the worst mental health facility east of the Mississippi River.  They made C/C/C's sexuality and gender identity a part of her psychological problems and plot.  Hello, she lured her brother into a romantic relationship, and even though they allegedly did not have sex, this makes the one trans character on the show an instigator of incest or near-incest, which is one of our society's greatest taboos, and it's made worse by the fact that her blood brother was not consenting. So, that's a trans-mentally ill-socially deviant connection clearly made within the plot itself, even if it was meant to make Kenneth the bad guy, explain why C/C/C went to Cape May with the family, and raise some audience sympathy for C/C/C/A.  Outside the show, in the real world, I also don't think we can just separate this plot "twist" from the long tradition of demonizing queer people, often through narratives or allusions involving sexual deviance, mental illness, and villainy--not to mention our ongoing national debates about the dangers that queer individuals pose to so-called American "family values" and family structures.  In that regard, looking at the various ways PLL's "crazy" trans character has threatened the sanctity of the American family and home, there's also the literal destruction of Emily's home, blowing up Toby's house, and (maybe?) framing dear Mama Marin for a cop's murder.  A has endangered the family relationships and most of the homes of all the pretty little liars, if not their lives.

[jjjmoss]

This in itself isn't a major issue, but some people were implying PLL being great about lgbt issues gives them a free pass on this awfulness.

Not only is the only trans representation highly problematic, but there actually isn't any G representation either. I know men on this show exist largely as boyfriends and/or to creep on teen girls, but being good about one issue/group (and some would argue that Em's love interests being a merry-go-round instead of her having a True Love is a bit unequal) doesn't mean the writers deserve to do anything they want (or nothing, as the case may be) with members of the other groups under the 'queer' umbrella.

Edited August 13, 2015 by jjjmoss

[WhosThatGirl]

Those comments from actual trans community are heartbreaking and I hope that there were some like it MK, because she needs to hear it. I'm not trans so obviously my perspective isn't the one that was truly hurt by that so, it's sad.

 

As for the actual show- because I honestly can't talk about the transgender aspect anymore. I've said what I think and thats that. The actual episode Cece as A doesn't make sense at all. I love that you guys are posting moments/scenes that are out of the show now due to Cece "being A". They've totally messed up the timeline, flimsy as it was now it's nothing but a moot point at all. It's like Marlene King didn't watch her own show for years. Which I can buy. 

 

I wonder what Sara Sherped thinks of the show. I've read some of the books and while she has expressed her gratitude towards ABC Family, the actresses and MK, I can't help but wonder if she wishes they stuck with the books plots. I can't help thinking if that would have been better too.

[itainttippithebird]

 

Didn't Marlene say that A would be someone who was in the first episode?

 

She said that referring to Mona (Original A).

[william0102]

Totally get it, William0102, and totally support your anger and feel it, too. Thank you for having the wherewithal to engage in these forums around something so difficult - <3 your perspective on all this.

iainttippithebird, thanks for speaking up too. But there's been quite a few people that have spoken up too.

It's really nice that we can all talk about this- and honestly that's one of the good things about this show. The show has done good things for visibility, and just like everyone else here, I think we've all invested time in the A reveal, so I feel like all the viewers got jerked around. Now, obviously we're all over the spectrum when it comes to where everyone stands on the trans plot, but I think overall all the posters have been respectful and willing to listen to opinions and share their own. You guys are actually one of the reasons I still watch this ridiculous show lol.

This show is good, and honestly when it ends it will probably be remembered as a show about 4 girls being friends and their strength- a girl positive show. As the seasons have gone on though, we've all seen all the fake reveals, the two dimensional make characters, the girls being dumbed down for plot, and omnipotent villains. Unfortunately, the longer the show goes, the more likely the audience is to realize all the repeated storylines and twists- which almost always lead to either unsatisfied viewers or a unsatisfactory story.

Back in season two, I think all of us would have given the show the benefit of doubt when it comes to trans, black, bisexual issues, but we can't now when it comes to more personal issues because we all recognize on some level that the show can't sustain itself with all the twists- because that's what is has become about, not plot, not character growth, and unfortunately resolution to stories they've spent half-seasons on.

[Lady Calypso]

It was a horrible representation, but for me CeCe being Trans was used for shock value not for prejudice against Trans people. I don't think they were saying that CeCe was mentally ill because she was trans, she's trans and happens to also be mentally ill. I'm not trans and can't pretend to know what they are going through and if they are outraged then Marlene King should've thought harder about that choice and if it was really worth the shock value. 

 

I don't think they meant to, but that's kind of what inadvertently happened. I think what I feel more than anything is sympathy for the trans community. I have this friend who I imagine would be outraged by this storyline, because she's been heavily involved in the trans community, is finishing up her own transition and is very vocal about the misuse and misinformation and typical ignorance toward her community. The trans community has never been showcased positively in the media, and even I am unaware of many of the issues they face, but it's been recently that I've been trying to learn. They definitely wanted to do it for shock value, but it's not like the trans community has representation in television as characters. All I saw, though, from this episode, is that Marlene avoided the use of the word 'transgender' and more side-stepped the problems, because she knew it was going to be risky. She did focus more on the abuse Cece sustained, but it's all the implications due to not addressing the community upfront that becomes the problem. The thing is, it's not going to be an easy issue to tackle. Everyone takes risks with newer issues and PLL just happened to tackle it in a bigger and more risky way, and one that I don't think paid off. 

 

I think making the only trans character the big evil sent the wrong message. If they wanted to truly tackle the transgender story, they should not have made her Big A. It just was a very, very poor issue to tackle and I can see that the trans community has already faced challenges with them being seen as sick or mentally ill due to their gender dysphoria (if that is the correct term). Marlene seemed too scared to really go all in, at least in the sense of just saying the word 'trans' and addressing this in a way that doesn't make the trans community look like monsters or the villains. And some people will take away that message from this finale.

[jjjmoss]

I wonder what Sara Shepard thinks of the show. I've read some of the books and while she has expressed her gratitude towards ABC Family, the actresses and MK, I can't help but wonder if she wishes they stuck with the books' plots. I can't help thinking if that would have been better too.

Putting this finale aside, I don't entirely agree with that. The books are inferior in terms of:

A) Mona. B) Jenna. C) Melissa. 

D) The Liars being generally less likable and less close to each other.

 

How A is dealt with is much better though, along with romances being less cloying.

[Sakura12]

That's what I meant, I don't think meant the audience to go with CeCe being trans because she's mentally ill. That's why I said I didn't think they were being transphobic. Did it come across that way, yes. 

 

As I mentioned above, Sense8 on Netflix has a Trans woman as one of the main characters played by a transgender actress named Jamie Clayton. You should tell your friend to check out that show. I think they did a great and respectable job showing her story. I'm telling everyone to watch that show because it's a good show that has a diverse cast with great stories for each of them. I wish it would get more media attention because it's the only show I've seen that is representing all of the LGBT community and some of their struggles. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[WhosThatGirl]

Putting this finale aside, I don't entirely agree with that. The books are inferior in terms of:

A) Mona. B) Jenna. C) Melissa. 

D) The Liars being generally less likable and less close to each other.

 

How A is dealt with is much better though, along with romances being less cloying.

Oh, I agree. The characters in the book are kind of awful and more or less one dimensional. But I think the mystery is done better and certain storylines are done better. 

 

ETA: I cannot believe we're going to be stuck with the giant bull of suck that is Sarah Harvey next season-that's what MK said that we will find out why Sarah helped Cece, how they met.. They are rerunning the episode right now and I'm watching  (again). So Shana was the one who brunt down the cabin? Jenna helped her, right? I remember a scene where an episode after that one when Emily saw Jenna and noticed she had a a burn scar on her arm and made a comment. So, I'm guessing she was there. 

Edited August 13, 2015 by WhosThatGirl

[MinionBooty]

If Charles was 7 when he did that to Ali, then there is definitely something wrong with the right and wrong morality in the child that has nothing to do with how dad treated her or what sex she was born as.

[MinionBooty]

Okay so can anyone clear this up?

 

Charles was taken out when he was what age to go to a"funeral".

So then Jessica brings her daughter Charlotte/CeCe back and say what? "Hi. Here is my other child and she to needs to be institutionalized? Yes her name is similar and color/height/eyes/ mannerisms/age... but she is not my son who  you thought was dangerous and drugged up half his life."

 

And how long until she brought Charles back, but now fully post op as Charlotte? I am curious, how long does it take for that to happen in a teenager? 

 

So she knew her daughter was mentally disturbed? So did she think that helping her be the sex she wanted to be would fix that? Would she have stood by and allowed the relationship between Jason and her to grow for her lie and daughters sanity? What did Jason do to both of them to deserve such betrayals?

 

How could Radley have mistaken her as being admitted as Aly for her to play that prank on her mother, if they knew who CeCe/ Charlotte was? And why if her mother was her one protector would she do that?

[bettername2come]

Was there any indication she ever had the surgery? She would never pass a psych eval.

[kissedbyarose]

Now I know Mr. D isn't the great parent for reasons I can no longer remember but doesn't he say to Jessica when they leave Cece at Radley something along the lines of leaving her there is the right thing "he's done this before"?

So I'm not sure if I fully believe that he hated Cece because she is transgender. I mean, after what she ended up doing... she kind of proved his point.

I say all of this to say that I believe that the only reason this was even introduced was to fill the hole of that nonsense Charles reveal.

Sigh. First Lost then Gossip Girl now this show. I'm staying away from shows with a whodunit element forever.

ETA: Also can someone point me in the direction of getting these characters/ages? I see people saying that Jason/Melissa etc is supposed to be 7 years older than the Liars but for some reason I thought it was 4 years. Thanks!

Edited August 13, 2015 by kissedbyarose

[william0102]

Transitioning is a long process, not a week out of Radley. Literally Mrs. D would have had to hide CeCe at the aunt's(?) house for at least two years. 

First, CeCe would have had to been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. That's a minimum of three months of counseling, I say three because even though it's usually easy to diagnose, people have to have been seeing a psychiatrist for at least three months to get a prescription for hormones. That's also assuming that Mrs. D was able to make sure that CeCe's doctor was paid well enough so that any "gatekeeping" didn't happen. By gatekeeping, I mean there are doctors that will make you wait months or years to get a hormone script- usually because they are transphobic and do not want to treat you , but are willing to take your money for the sessions.

CeCe would also have needed Mrs. D's permission since she was a minor. Now after getting the prescription for hormones, a person has to live a year as their true gender/sex, because it's to make sure there's time to process the body changing. For any sexual reassignment surgery, the person has to have been seeing the same doctor for two years, needs that doctor's letter and another doc's letter (usually an endocrinologist). Only then can the surgeries happen. Now within those two years there is also blood tests to make sure the person's hormone levels don't change too much too fast. And since the body doesn't produce enough of the hormones that are being supplemented, this is a life long requirement.

So obviously all the surgeries CeCe would have needed (at least four) couldn't have been done all at once, which adds even more time. Realistically CeCe would have needed to leave Radley for 3 years. So, if Mrs. D did take CeCe out of Radley when she was 16, she could theoretically bring her back three years later and no one would really question it. My main problem is the age plot hole, just in this season alone they said "Charles" died as a late teen, but CeCe was in college and in Radley at 18 according to the finale? Also, if they were actually showing how her transness effected her(ie the length of her transitioning), why would CeCe go back to Radley after being out for three years? 

Edited August 13, 2015 by william0102

[Pollock]

That is the tip of the PLL iceberg when it comes to dimensional shifting.  Mona is the tiniest person on the show, yet the season 1-2 A (most notably in the nursery) looms large over the actors.  And the person Jenna thought she'd never see again had a white hand and turned out to be the black Shana.  It is quite clear they are making this up as they go.

I chose to take "The Affair" approach about this. If people don't know it, it's a show where two points of view of the same scene are exposed. Because everybody's memory of an event is different and subjected to interpretation because of our own emotions and history, the same scene changes from one point of view to the other. Details like clothes, surroundings etc... One of the last episode had so many differences that people freaked a little about it. The author explained that the scene was seen so differently by the two characters because of what's important to them, of subconcious ways to sort out memories.

So, I decided we see those scenes, where A agresses someone directly, via the PLL eyes and others A victims. To them, A is a giant, all powerful creep/murderer etc... So we see A like that, physical appearance varying because of how unreliable witnesses are. The only real scenes, scenes which can be trusted should be the final ones, just before credits, where the omniscient narrator takes over.

(please note that I don't remember the 5 seasons enough to detect any plot holes in those scenes, it's just a satisfactory explanation I came up with to stay sane !)

 

I think that instead of talking about whether or not people should be offended, all of us who are not trans need to hear from some trans people about how they feel about it. There are some good comments on Heather Hogan's latest recap, including: 

I edited the comments down to just the gist, but you can read the full comments and many more on the recap.

Thank you for posting those comments. Frankly, I didn't understand why all the fuss about Cece's genre. I stay on the boat with other people who think that A just happen to be crazy and transgender, not one being the cause of the other (whatever the good order is) and maybe in 10 years (or before, we can only hope...), it wouldn't be a problem to depict on tv because transgender people will be seen as part of humanity and not longer like freaks by some but I can see now how, in our time, it was truly insensitive and cruel, even unintentionally, to have the big bad wolf being one for the sake of a twist, especially for struggling youngsters who watch the show.

So again, thank you. I never cease to learn from PTV forum. The diversity of the crowd here, offering every day different points of views about life is truly a gift. 

[MinionBooty]

How could of Cece  have been back at Radley? I mean why was Charlotte put in there? Charles is dead and according to Radley  complete with organs donated.

 

I am assuming that her name was now Charlotte Dilaurentis. So did Mrs. D said now my other child needs to be here? What did this child do? If Charles was so bad that he needed to be drugged to the gills, there is no way that they knew he was now a she, and let her out to go to college.

 

Would after the surgery, counseling be mandatory? And would not during that counseling  or any in between  her mental issues be found out? She did not seem like she could hide her lack of empathy or emotional issues.  And what kind of medicine would she now be on? Wouldn't Radley have to know that?

[WhosThatGirl]

I do kind of love for a girl who didn't even go to Rosewood High and snuck in for yearbook picture day, she managed to have two clubs attach to her name-someone on the forum here pointed that out and I rewatched the clip where Spencer looks her up in the Rosewood yearbook. It totally negates all the stuff MK is saying about how this has been planned for years. Ah, this show. They clearly need to hire an intern whose job it is to write down things from episodes on white boards and charts since they keep forgetting.

 

Also many times as I wrote that I wanted to yell in my  Mean Girls Damien voice, "she doesn't even go here!" Oh my goodness, that should be Charles/Charlottles/Cece's title thread!

Edited August 13, 2015 by WhosThatGirl

[jjjmoss]

Then Gossip Girl now this show. I'm staying away from shows with a whodunit element forever.

 

Well, GG was mostly bad after mid-season 2, and the "reveal" while stupid and illogical was never a central point of the show.

You should watch Veronica Mars if you haven't though, if you like mystery shows centered around teens.

[william0102]

CeCe would never have been eligible for sex reassignment surgery. She's crazy and on heavy heavy meds. More importantly. no doctor would ever have taken her seriously about being a girl because she was crazy, that's the unfortunate truth.

Even if somehow Mrs. D had paid the doctors off for her to get the letters for surgery and the hormones, she would have had to pay off the endocrinologist too because that doctor would see the meds Radley had her on. You can't take too many prescriptions- there's no telling how the drugs would have interacted since I'm pretty sure that diagnoses was fake.

 

Now say CeCe was lying about the meds (not taking any at all) and Mrs. D were keeping her at Radley like it was a hotel, then it's all pretty much as my previous post. Trans people do not have to continue therapy after they finish transitioning, but a number do just because it's a very emotional time.

[Cranberry]

One mystery per season is the way to go. VMars did it well; Harper's Island did it... pretty well (I hated the reveal, but the show was entertaining); I'm actually more into MTV's Scream than I expected to be. I've been disappointed by every multi-season mystery/conspiracy show I can think of, though, with the exception of Fringe.