S10.E10: Girl Code

[sasha206]

 

 

Vicki needs to stop fucking with her face. And she is SO not over Donn as all she does is talk about how she wished she'd never gotten divorced. She says it's about the kids and the money but she's too savvy to say it's because she loves him and is miserable without him. Unlike some Housewives, she knows she's on TV and it will get around. If she just missed the money and hated him, she wouldn't harp on the marriage part so much. She seems super depressed to me since that marriage went south and she's clinging to Brooks because he's there and she's no spring chicken. Men aren't easy to find in her age range. 

 

That sounds sexist but it's true. I know. I'm in her age range.

 

I get the feeling that Vicki was more upset with parting with the money and that's why she wishes she had tried harder. 

 

That and she's probably, after living with Brooks, realizes that the grass aint always greener particularly when her love tank is being serviced because she bought him.

Edited August 15, 2015 by sasha206

[breezy424]

Yeah, it's totally amazing that Vicki states that she has regrets about divorcing Donn when she's in a relationship with Brooks.  Very telling.  I don't think it's as much about money as it is about that her relationship with Donn was probably a lot better.  Sure, he was having an affair.  And she admits cheating on him (was that Brooks?) but the bottom line was that Donn wasn't the low life that Brooks is.  Personally, to me, it's all screwed up but Vicki is all screwed up.  She readily admits she needs a man in her life to feel whole. 

[Former Nun]

Am I the only one here who thinks that David Beador and his daughters deserve a more happy and stable life.  I don't want those little girls to grow up going to witch doctor after witch doctor trying to cure what their parents' marriage and their mother's hypochondria did to them.

[Granimal]

Okay, I guess I don't understand the subtle differences between sidepiece, fling, mistress, etc.

If you screw my husband for at least 8 months and he moves out to be with you, be lucky if all I call you is "mistress".

The poster (sorry its late) who quoted Teresa, "Is bitch better?" was spot on.

 

And whether Shannon over shares or not, if you are my friend and/or acquaintance pumping me for details on my marriage while having sex with my husband- you're a piece of shit.

 

At no level is cheating okay in my book. Stringing someone on for ten years? Spending a ton of money on some other woman? Irrelevant. The first time you screw my husband, there is no coming back or nuances. There is no moral high ground here that a woman screwing another woman's husband can take- particularly when said husband has children.

 

And David, you broke the vows. I see through you. Get some balls and get a divorce if you're going to screw other women. Hopefully before Shannon finds your Ashley Madison account.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Granimal

[Lyra Angelica]

David Beador deserves nothing.  Sorry, no not sorry, but I don't understand that sort of mentality.  I guess being someone who has a mistress and plays psychological mind games does wonders for familiy stablity and the welfare of the children.

[sasha206]

Meghan's husband married her because he wants a personal assistant and nanny. Period.

 

 

And I keep thinking it's to keep the gay rumors at bay.  

[sasha206]

 

 

That was shocking, and I hope folks around here can go a day without slamming Shannon for not getting over it.  The betrayal couldn't have been more deep, and there's no way David didn't know the mistress became Shannon's confidant.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if David wanted her to befriend Shannon so they could spend more time together and sneak in some kisses when Shannon wasnt looking.

[Former Nun]

There are definitely two camps in the David and Shannon saga.

[zoeysmom]

There are definitely two camps in the David and Shannon saga.

I think initially people were being glib and saying things like, "no wonder he cheats, she is such a nag." As the story develops Shannon being a nag doesn't seem to measure up to the level of betrayal David and his "affair" pounded Shannon with for their own happiness.

 

Perhaps the camps are more along the lines of Shannon tossing the bum out for

Shannon and her daughters' sanity and happiness vs. Shannon staying with the cheater and trying to make a go of it.  I don't really see a team David or a team Shannon in play here from the comments.

 

[sasha206]

I think initially people were being glib and saying things like, "no wonder he cheats, she is such a nag." As the story develops Shannon being a nag doesn't seem to measure up to the level of betrayal David and his "affair" pounded Shannon with for their own happiness.

 

Perhaps the camps are more along the lines of Shannon tossing the bum out for

Shannon and her daughters' sanity and happiness vs. Shannon staying with the cheater and trying to make a go of it.  I don't really see a team David or a team Shannon in play here from the comments.

 

 

Yeah, the level of betrayal upped the disgust for me.

 

But I'm also one of those who sees how Jimmy treats Meghan and I'm hoping she's got a sidepiece.  Even though it's not the right thing to do, he's such a dick to her I can't help but think she should find happiness elsewhere.  Even though of course, the right thing to do is separate rather than infidelity.

[zoeysmom]

Yeah, the level of betrayal upped the disgust for me.

 

But I'm also one of those who sees how Jimmy treats Meghan and I'm hoping she's got a sidepiece.  Even though it's not the right thing to do, he's such a dick to her I can't help but think she should find happiness elsewhere.  Even though of course, the right thing to do is separate rather than infidelity.

That Edmonds marriage just feels wrong on every level-she acts as if she is young enough to be Jim's daughter.  I think Meghan wanted the marriage more than Jim-afterall she is so special. 

[sasha206]

That Edmonds marriage just feels wrong on every level-she acts as if she is young enough to be Jim's daughter.  I think Meghan wanted the marriage more than Jim-afterall she is so special. 

 

I seriously think that he married her b/c Haley's mom was dying and he knew that he could put her in the stepmom role.  Probably why Leanne developed a relatiolnship with her.  She wasn't stupid.  She probably knew Jim would be back and forth to St. Louis so Megan could give her a little stability.  

[ButterQueen]

Okay, I guess I don't understand the subtle differences between sidepiece, fling, mistress, etc.

If you screw my husband for at least 8 months and he moves out to be with you, be lucky if all I call you is "mistress".

The poster (sorry its late) who quoted Teresa, "Is bitch better?" was spot on.

 

And whether Shannon over shares or not, if you are my friend and/or acquaintance pumping me for details on my marriage while having sex with my husband- you're a piece of shit.

 

At no level is cheating okay in my book. Stringing someone on for ten years? Spending a ton of money on some other woman? Irrelevant. The first time you screw my husband, there is no coming back or nuances. There is no moral high ground here that a woman screwing another woman's husband can take- particularly when said husband has children.

 

And David, you broke the vows. I see through you. Get some balls and get a divorce if you're going to screw other women. Hopefully before Shannon finds your Ashley Madison account.

THIS ^^^^^^ all.day.long~!!!!!

[Former Nun]

I don't really see a team David or a team Shannon in play here from the comments.

 

 

Not two teams or sides...just different points of view.

That Edmonds marriage just feels wrong on every level-she acts as if she is young enough to be Jim's daughter.

 

 

Almost....

[zoeysmom]

This woman is an idiot. http://www.people.com/article/meghan-king-edmonds-rhoc-interview-friends-husband-exes-blended-family

She and Jim have been married under a year and she talks about it taking time to blend the family.  She sure forms attachments in a hurry-I believe it was just back in March she was saying she and Allison had no relationship. 

[Should Be Working]

She's responding to a Radar article. She can't take the shit that comes along with being a public persona. What a baby.

 

This moron lives in an alternate universe of her own making. She and Alison are good friends? I bet Alison would say otherwise. She had a "close relationship" with LeAnn? Is that why she took it upon herself to broadcast LeeAnn's terminal prognosis to the rest of the world and give LeAnn's daughter that creepy talk about the "great circle of life" after Vicki's mother died?

 

And the real kicker: her marriage to Jimbo is stronger than ever. If his increasingly dismissive language (more often these days, simple grunts), overtly contemptuous treatment, and constant trips away from OC are compelling evidence of an increasingly strong marriage, well, I've still got that beautiful swampland is Florida that I'll sell to her for a song,

 

Meghan is either completely deluded or thinks the rest of us are. With a few exceptions on this forum, that is just not the case. 

[Snarky McSnarky]

I'm not a baseball fan, but apparently Jim is a huge deal in St. Louis, and currently works as a broadcaster in that part of the Country.  According to whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry, he is affectionately known by Cardinal fans as "Jimmy Baseball", "Jimmy Ballgame", and "Hollywood".  Meghan was undoubtedly aware of this when she snagged him.  She must have thought his local fame would transfer to Orange County, and she was right to a certain degree.  It got her a spot on RHOC, which is a step up from her appearances on "Resale Royalty."

 

http://stoopidhousewives.com/2015/08/14/model-meghead-on-resale-royalty-rhoc

[Former Nun]

According to whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry, he is affectionately known by Cardinal fans as "Jimmy Baseball", "Jimmy Ballgame", and "Hollywood".  Meghan was undoubtedly aware of this when she snagged him.

 

 

Andy Cohen may be the real snagger.  St. Louis is his home town.

[Persnickety1]

Posted this in Vicki's thread but since it's pertinent to this season cross posting here:

 

The great love affair kaput.

 

https://www.facebook.com/vickigunvalsonhousewife?fref=nf

 

 

 

After much prayer, thought, counseling, and consideration, we have decided to end our four year relationship. We both wish nothing but a great future for each other. We have come to realize that one can indeed love someone in their heart, but that the time may come for their lives to take separate paths. Though the remaining episodes of Season 10 of The Real Housewives of Orange County will show us as a couple, the filming took place in January 2015 through May 2015. There will be no further statements or interviews regarding our relationship as we choose to move on with our lives. Though we choose to live our lives in the public eye we thank you for your understanding and ask privacy during this difficult time.
Vicki Gunvalson and Brooks Ayers

[zoeysmom]

I'm not a baseball fan, but apparently Jim is a huge deal in St. Louis, and currently works as a broadcaster in that part of the Country.  According to whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry, he is affectionately known by Cardinal fans as "Jimmy Baseball", "Jimmy Ballgame", and "Hollywood".  Meghan was undoubtedly aware of this when she snagged him.  She must have thought his local fame would transfer to Orange County, and she was right to a certain degree.  It got her a spot on RHOC, which is a step up from her appearances on "Resale Royalty."

 

http://stoopidhousewives.com/2015/08/14/model-meghead-on-resale-royalty-rhoc

Jim and Allison Edmonds were neighbors with the Dubrows.  At the time Terry was trying to snag a reality show with Evolution Media.  He and Heather offered up the Edmonds.  They separated before filming on Season 8 and Alexis was brought back on.  Beginning of Season 9 had both the Hamiltons (next door neighbors to the Hoedown site) and Edmonds with his new babe in tow-Meghan.  By the time the show aired they had become engaged.  So I think Terry Dubrow wisely used the Edmonds as a proffer to Evolution Media for his own show. 

Posted this in Vicki's thread but since it's pertinent to this season cross posting here:

 

The great love affair kaput.

 

https://www.facebook.com/vickigunvalsonhousewife?fref=nf

Sounds like Vicki moved on.  I won't hold my breath by the time they film the Reunion next month they will be apart but back together by the time the Reunion airs.

[Snarky McSnarky]

"Though we choose to live our lives in the public eye we thank you for your understanding and ask privacy during this difficult time."

 

Sorry, Vicki.  You can't pick and choose what is private and what is public.  It's all public as soon as you sign on the dotted line with The Devil, er, Bravo TV.

[zoeysmom]

"Though we choose to live our lives in the public eye we thank you for your understanding and ask privacy during this difficult time."

 

Sorry, Vicki.  You can't pick and choose what is private and what is public.  It's all public as soon as you sign on the dotted line with The Devil, er, Bravo TV.

She acts like it is the Affleck/Garner divorce.  They break up at least once a season.

[Bronzedog]

When I first read the announcement, I didn't read the part mentioning Vicki, so I was sure this was about Jim and Meghan.

[MissMel]

I thought it was Jim and Meghan at first, too. But since it's Vicki and brooks, should I be ashamed to admit my next thought was: "Yes! Donn's coming back!"? Just me?

[Ubiquitous]

When I first read the announcement, I didn't read the part mentioning Vicki, so I was sure this was about Jim and Meghan.

I initially thought it was Shannon and David.

[Should Be Working]

Posted this in Vicki's thread but since it's pertinent to this season cross posting here:

 

The great love affair kaput.

 

 

Now that's odd timing. Did she give Brooks a large "get lost" check so that he can pay for his rent, his fruit smoothies, transportation, and alternative cancer therapies for the foreseeable future?

 

If he really does have cancer,this is a cold and heartless act on her part, depriving a very sick man of his sole support network, If he's been faking it and she finally found out, well, that makes a bit more sense. Should have stuck with the faked chemo sessions, Brooks.

[turbogirlnyc]

I think Jimmy is a famewhore too. He probably supported this idea until he got involved--now he wants nothing to do with it. I wouldn't be surprised if Meghan can't accept a new contract (if offered). Jimmy is a big deal in St. Louis, Andy's home town.

Just to be clear, Jimmy WAS a big deal in St. Louis. Past tense. I wouldn't put all my faith in Wikipedia. Anyone can edit and add content. Even Jimmy's #1 fan.

I'm not a fan of Meghan but comparing Haley and Briana (in terms of being spoiled by parents) isn't exactly fair. Briana isn't just out of high school. Haley might change her mind, go to college and earn a living. Of course Briana is way ahead of Haley. She's what, 10 years older?

Edited August 17, 2015 by turbogirlnyc

[RedheadZombie]

Just to be clear, Jimmy WAS a big deal in St. Louis. Past tense. I wouldn't put all my faith in Wikipedia. Anyone can edit and add content. Even Jimmy's #1 fan.

I'm not a fan of Meghan but comparing Haley and Briana (in terms of being spoiled by parents) isn't exactly fair. Briana isn't just out of high school. Haley might change her mind, go to college and earn a living. Of course Briana is way ahead of Haley. She's what, 10 years older?

Jim is still a big deal in St. Louis. He took part in Saturday's Cardinals Hall of Fame induction, and he's a member himself. He still announces games. Once a Cardinal always a Cardinal. I can't stress this enough for people who don't know baseball. I just read an article rating the fan bases of the thirty teams in MLB. St Louis was number one, and the author called baseball the city's "religion".

[Former Nun]

"Yes! Donn's coming back!"? Just me?

 

 

I never thought Donn was a prize, but I wouldn't wish Vicki on anyone...well, maybe Brooks.

[gingerella]

I'm not a baseball fan, but apparently Jim is a huge deal in St. Louis, and currently works as a broadcaster in that part of the Country.  According to whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry, he is affectionately known by Cardinal fans as "Jimmy Baseball", "Jimmy Ballgame", and "Hollywood".  Meghan was undoubtedly aware of this when she snagged him.  She must have thought his local fame would transfer to Orange County, and she was right to a certain degree.  It got her a spot on RHOC, which is a step up from her appearances on "Resale Royalty."

 

http://stoopidhousewives.com/2015/08/14/model-meghead-on-resale-royalty-rhoc

Saw this nasty Meghan bitch on Say Yes To The Dress Last night. Apparently her life ambition is to be a reality fame whore.

[turbogirlnyc]

Jim is still a big deal in St. Louis. He took part in Saturday's Cardinals Hall of Fame induction, and he's a member himself. He still announces games. Once a Cardinal always a Cardinal. I can't stress this enough for people who don't know baseball. I just read an article rating the fan bases of the thirty teams in MLB. St Louis was number one, and the author called baseball the city's "religion".

St. Louis is my hometown. Born & raised until I was offered a job and moved to NYC at 29. Yes, it's a huge baseball town because there's nothing else to get excited about. Jim may do things behind the scenes but he's definitely not in the spotlight.

He announces games as in play by play on television or radio? News to me. I can't imagine a jerk like him having the charisma to pull it off. STL has had amazing announcers in the past. Jack Buck, Joe Buck, Mike Shannon, etc. What a shame.

Edited August 17, 2015 by turbogirlnyc

[Roxy]

Posted this in Vicki's thread but since it's pertinent to this season cross posting here:

 

The great love affair kaput.

 

https://www.facebook.com/vickigunvalsonhousewife?fref=nf

 

Is it possible he is faking it and Vicki wanted to be out before the stuff started to air? Timing is everything.

[Former Nun]

I've seen the "vagina" comment mentioned several times on this forum.  Did Meghan actually use that word or was it Vicki...or a poster?  Perhaps she just wished she'd birthed them...or "they came out of me."    I wish I could understand what's so wrong about truly wishing she were their mother.

[Former Nun]

VICKI: I'm still wondering in real life situations, would anyone really question someone's diagnosis that was made by a licensed DOCTOR?

 

 

That's a quote from the website Roxy provided (above).  Not many would question a diagnosis made by a "licensed DOCTOR."  It's that the nefarious  "doctor" angle is suspect when dealing with a lying, conning, grifting leech (not that I'm naming names). There are all kinds of wackos out there with "licenses" claiming to be doctors--and not necessarily true medical doctors with degrees from recognized universities and accreditations from reputable licensing boards.

 

Also, why is Vicki so huffy about a psychic.  Didn't she bring one in her home to give information on her mother...after she died? 

[IKnowRight]

I've seen the "vagina" comment mentioned several times on this forum. Did Meghan actually use that word or was it Vicki...or a poster? Perhaps she just wished she'd birthed them...or "they came out of me." I wish I could understand what's so wrong about truly wishing she were their mother.

I think many people see it as Meghan not having any boundaries, the "balls" on that woman, and I'm speaking as someone that is in that same camp of people giving her the side eye on this issue. It's great that she is trying hard, and cares about them instead of plotting to send them all to boarding school...But...as someone else posted, it's reminiscent of LeAnn Rimes talking and tweeting about "my boys" when she's the stepmom, Brandi's the mother. I can't stand Brandi, but they are her bio children, not LeAnn's children. It feels like she wants to take over the role, not share the role while respecting their bio mother.

I am SO GLAD I didn't have to deal with this situation. My kids are young adults and I'm still married, 26 years, to my husband, their dad and never had to deal with an ex or a new wife raising our kids. Our Kids were just talking about how most of their childhood friends parents are still together, and many of those parents are friends of mine too. I have to be honest and say that it has to be such a big person to accept a stranger into your children's lives, just because your ex marries someone else. You are bringing someone else inside the family, who will be involved in shaping their lives. That's huge. It's best to put your feelings aside for the kids, but Meghan's words are territorial. She acts like the bio mother is unnecessary. That's what is beyond the pale here. She can wish all she wants but she needs to know her place. Also, declaring Allison Edmonds is a very unhappy person will earn her no friends. I bet that comment endeared her to Allison even more! Not.

Edited August 20, 2015 by IKnowRight

[OhGromit]

I've seen the "vagina" comment mentioned several times on this forum.  Did Meghan actually use that word or was it Vicki...or a poster?  Perhaps she just wished she'd birthed them...or "they came out of me."    I wish I could understand what's so wrong about truly wishing she were their mother.

 

She said she wished they came out of her.

 

On the what's wrong part... I'm not a mom, but I imagine it like this-- what if you said to your (guy) friend, who's in a relationship, that you wished you were his girlfriend.  It's NOT IDENTICAL and I know that... I'm just drawing a comparison.  See how it's a little creepy and wrong, and see how the (real) girlfriend might understandably be pissed and threatened by the boundary crossing?  You could say hey, I just really like him and I meant it as a compliment!!  And you might feel that way.  But the girlfriend, she would probably have a tough time with it and would be like back off my boyfriend, woman!!  

 

So, too, the mothers here might feel like whoa, woman, you do not ever get to be me-- I am the mother and I cherish that unique and special role.  Respect that and do not talk about my children like that.  Love them, okay, but don't go THERE.  

 

Remember, I am saying my example is ONLY LIKE the Meghan situation/ statement, not IDENTICAL to that-- I'm only trying to illustrate with another non-identical and different example!  It just kind of gives an idea.  I'm just saying that is an example that might help explore some of the feelings/ boundaries that get triggered by the stuff Meghan's saying.

Edited August 20, 2015 by OhGromit

[Former Nun]

Remember, I am saying my example is ONLY LIKE the Meghan situation/ statement, not IDENTICAL to that-- I'm only trying to illustrate with another non-identical and different example!  It just kind of gives an idea.  I'm just saying that is an example that might help explore some of the feelings/ boundaries that get triggered by the stuff Meghan's saying.

 

 

Your explanation is good, OhGromit, if Meghan had said this to the daughter's mother.  She just expressed her feelings to a group of so-called new friends.  I think the only thing she should be criticized for is EVER trusting any of them.  They would probably have overlooked such a comment if one of their sisters or best friends had said something similar.  If anything should happen to Brianna and a stepmother must raise Vicki's grandchildren, woe be she who "loves them as her own."

She acts like the bio mother is unnecessary.

 

 

Apparently I don't watch these shows often enough.  I've never had that impression...from watching or from the posters here who don't like Meghan at all.

[OhGromit]

Your explanation is good, OhGromit, if Meghan had said this to the daughter's mother.  She just expressed her feelings to a group of so-called new friends.  I think the only thing she should be criticized for is EVER trusting any of them.  They would probably have overlooked such a comment if one of their sisters or best friends had said something similar.  If anything should happen to Brianna and a stepmother must raise Vicki's grandchildren, woe be she who "loves them as her own."

 

Well, okay, come on now, though, okay so now imagine that you're *crying* to your *married* girlfriends about how you wish you were your married (guy) friend's wife.    

 

Also, I'm quite sure Allison Edmonds ain't too happy about it, because even if it wasn't said to her face, it was-- ahem-- sobbed over on cable TV.  And then repeated all over the internet.  

 

So to also add the fame/ TV element... WHAT IF you were (pre-Brad) Angelina Jolie, and you were sobbing publicly, on TV, because you wished you were Brad Pitt's wife... that's an example of where it wouldn't have to be said directly to Jennifer Aniston for her to get pissed, and for others to freak out on Jennifer's behalf!!  Like that.  

 

And again.. this is all for a friendly game of comparing, illustrative, imagining the emotions purposes only... I am not saying any of these situations are even close to identical.  I am certainly not saying Jimmy is Brad Pitt, or that Meghan is Angie, none of that none of that.  Just imagining how the boundaries start to feel invaded and why.  

Edited August 20, 2015 by OhGromit

[Former Nun]

Just imagining how the boundaries start to feel invaded and why.

 

 

Okay, I could agree with all of that if any of these "housewives" were involved.  They're not. No one has been invaded: they're not the stepmothers, the wives (first, second, or third).  They're just meddling busybodies.   If Jim's exes were commenting, that would be completely different; they DO have dogs in this fight.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Former Nun

[OhGromit]

Okay I give up!  If I was a wife (I'm divorced), and a single gal cried about wanting to be someone else's husband, I would totally judge and give the side-eye.  In fact my wife friends tend to have those kinds of boundaries, like whoa, girl, you talking about having a connection with a married dude... married dudes are off limits yo!  So I can definitely imagine feeling that way about Meghan when she says she wishes the kids came out of her.  Especially with Vicki and Tamra being moms whose children have step-moms.

 

Although this is not meant to be about wives and husbands, just about intruding on boundaries and so on!  And understanding the various reactions.  

Edited August 20, 2015 by OhGromit

[FozzyBear]

I think this episode clarified why I always have this nagging feeling that Shannon is lying, or at the very least her version of events is not to be trusted. She told Vicki this private story on camera! Why? I mean, leave David, but why are you doing this? She could have told Vicki off camera. She could have told Vicki on camera in a "I no longer have fucks to give" way. Instead she tells Vicki this story and asks her to keep it private ON CAMERA! Shannon, what? Now I want to know what really happened with this woman. Did she do this? In the way Shannon said? I can't just take Shannon at her word if she expects me to suspend disbelief about half of the shit she says and does at the same time.

[UsernameFatigue]

I think Meghan's wish that she had birthed her step kids has more to do with the fact that she will most likely not have bio kids with Jimmy and she would like to have that connection with him. As a step parent I have never had that particular feeling, in fact because I never had an interest in either being pregnant or giving birth, I was happy that my hubby's ex was the one who gave birth. But that's just me.

 

However as much as I do not like Meghan, I wish she had shut Vicki down by saying to her "you have never been a step parent so you do not know what it is like". Vicki was getting on my last nerve by telling Meghan she was doing everything wrong after telling her that she had no right to consider herself a parent. You can't have it both ways, Vickster. And I find Vicki's lecturing of Meghan hilarious considering that Vicki's husband Don was a step parent and Vicki treated him like crap. She was the exact opposite of Jimmy. Rather than expect Don to raise her kids, as far as I could ever she she totally shut him out. I remember several times that she and the kids went on vacation and did not even invite Don to go with them. I never saw any connection of her kids to their step father until after Don and Vicki separated. Before that he was nothing more than another person living in the house.

 

As far as Vicki buying Brianna a car? It is disgusting that she is still trying to buy her almost- 30 -year- old -mother -of -two -married -daughter's love. And even more disgusting that Brianna is happy to be bought. So before you go looking at anyone else's relationships - either bio or step - look at your own Vicki. It isn't all that pretty.