S01.E02: The Road Trip - Part 1

[SmithW6079]

I thought it interesting and telling when Cait said that so many people were so supportive in public of her coming out at first and yet hardly any of them have bothered to come over to see her. You know, like when the camera's aren't rolling. I'm assuming she means most her family. There's going to be a lot more of that when things settle down and her coming out is not so new and exciting anymore. Cait's going to have many lonely days ahead up in that remote Malibu house.

As little as I think of the entire Kardashian publicity machine, I also think that the family is kind of "between a rock and a hard place": they have to show how supportive they are in public. How would people react if one of the Jenner kids or the Kardashians said, "I don't know how I feel. Yesterday, Bruce was my father. Today, Caitlyn is."? Social media is a vicious beast, which makes judgments and declares guilt without evidence. Any Jenner or Kardhasian expressing doubts or reservations -- because changing the gender identity one has held for one's entire life is a huge thing -- would be blasted.

Someone quoted Jennifer Boylan:

I’d also note that no one is harder on the trans community than the trans community itself. We are relentless in our desire to tell others that They Are Doing It Wrong; that being trans is not That but This; that living in our world demands constant vigilance and apology and fury. As someone involved in this work for fifteen years now, I understand the urgency of being seen (and spoken of) in the terms which we define. But I also feel that we would all benefit from a little more love, starting with the love we might show each other. There is no one right way of being trans, and there is no one right path to tread. This is true not only in our language, but in our hearts as well— the place where that language finds it's [sic] source.

And yet, in one of the confessionals or to one of the other women, she says that Caitlyn has to learn that being a woman is not just about clothes and make-up and hair. Sounds like Boylan is the one "tell[ing] others that They Are Doing It Wrong; that being trans is not That but This."

Also, I don't give a fuck about what happened to the golf balls.

Edited August 5, 2015 by SmithW6079

[Human]

 

Someone quoted Jennifer Boylan:

And yet, in one of the confessionals or to one of the other women, she says that Caitlyn has to learn that being a woman is not just about clothes and make-up and hair. Sounds like Boylan is the one "tell[ing] others that They Are Doing It Wrong; that being trans is not That but This."

 

 

As she was speaking in the context of what the show is conveying to the general public, it's not about telling Caitlyn how to be a woman, but about how to be a public figure for the trans community in a way that doesn't set us back ten years.  It's a reality that transgender people often find themselves having to explain that we aren't playing dress up.  For millions of people, Cait's public transition has been the first time they are learning about transgender people.  Within the trans community, her story is an outlier and is not representative of the average transpersons experience.  

 

I guess consider it this way.  If the Kardashians somehow become the unintentional face or spokespeople for the human race so the beings of Kepler-452b could learn about us, wouldn't it be really important that the Kardashians convey that they represent a percentage so small that it barely calculates?  I mean, sure, they can discuss their interests and their concerns but as representatives of homosapiens they ought to find a way to point out that another seven billion of our species have different concerns in our daily lives.  

[Febgirl]

 

 

Someone quoted Jennifer Boylan:

And yet, in one of the confessionals or to one of the other women, she says that Caitlyn has to learn that being a woman is not just about clothes and make-up and hair. Sounds like Boylan is the one "tell[ing] others that They Are Doing It Wrong; that being trans is not That but This."

 

 

THIS.  I read Jennifer Boylan's She's Not There- and I recall part of the book where she's in the hospital comparing herself to her roommate who was not as privileged as she, and her wife telling her, " Don't you get it, Jenny, you were the Golden Boy, and now you're the Golden Girl"   (Paraphrasing here)   So , when I read/ listen to her telling people how to act, I have to wonder...

 

 Also, did anyone feel that Cait's quoting of Janet Mock seemed a little too studied?  Almost as if she was given "homework".

[millennium]

 Within the trans community, her story is an outlier and is not representative of the average transpersons experience.  

 

Some of the biggest issues for transgender people aren't even a consideration in her story.   Employment, how to finance transitioning, health care, personal safety ...  

 

She trained for years to become a champion in the Olympics, but when it comes to transitioning, Caitlyn Jenner bought her gold medal.   That's not the kind of champion transgender people need.

Edited August 5, 2015 by millennium

[iwasish]

Some of the biggest issues for transgender people aren't even a consideration in her story.   Employment, how to finance transitioning, health care, personal safety ...  

 

She trained for years to become a champion in the Olympics, but when it comes to transitioning, Caitlyn Jenner bought her gold medal.   That's not the kind of champion transgender people need.

All they have to do is get a job... I could almost see that thought running thru her head when the others were talking about  getting public assistance... get a job.. get health insurance and everything will be okay.   

She must have read a lot of the comments on how she's coming across and they have released a bunch of clips in which  there's no soft focus on her face and you can see every line and wrinkle, trying  to make her seem more relatable.

She lives in that beautiful all white house in the Hollywood Hills, with gorgeous views and fancy cars and people at her beck and call to buy her this, get her that, take her here or there, and she can lounge around in designer duds and drink expensive wine, she can tweet and make phone calls to famous folk and politicians and have them call her back.. she lives in a big secure bubble and I don't know if she wants to burst free, she stands to lose too much. But how long can she try and fit in both worlds? Can you see her and Chandi and the Jennifers hitting golf balls off a tee into hills while discussing the latest round of  transgender teen suicides or the an attempt to get some legislation passed to fund a shelter? I'm sorry but I don't think Caitlyn is that deep. For her it is the hair and makeup, clothing and a voice that passes.

[millennium]

Can you see her and Chandi and the Jennifers hitting golf balls off a tee into hills while discussing the latest round of  transgender teen suicides or the an attempt to get some legislation passed to fund a shelter? I'm sorry but I don't think Caitlyn is that deep. For her it is the hair and makeup, clothing and a voice that passes.

 

The transgender people she surrounds herself with ... the media refers to them as her "girlfriends."   But they're not real friends.   They were rounded up for the show.   It's not like she's known them for years, or shared their victories and heartaches, celebrated with them, cried with them  ...  It's like staging a house you're trying to sell.

 

It must be very lonely once the cameras are turned off.

Edited August 5, 2015 by millennium

[Thumper]

I am appreciating this show.  I never heard of Jennifer Boylan before.  Now I want to read her book(s).  If nothing else, Caitlin has made many of us more aware and  interested in learning more.

 

I also give Caitlin (Caitlyn?) credit for allowing us to see her flaws and ignorance.  She could have edited all that out if she wanted to.  She may not be the ideal spokesperson, but she is bringing transgender issues more public.

[freeradical]

As she was speaking in the context of what the show is conveying to the general public, it's not about telling Caitlyn how to be a woman, but about how to be a public figure for the trans community in a way that doesn't set us back ten years.  It's a reality that transgender people often find themselves having to explain that we aren't playing dress up.  For millions of people, Cait's public transition has been the first time they are learning about transgender people.  Within the trans community, her story is an outlier and is not representative of the average transpersons experience.  

 

 

 

 

     Thank you for this insight.  Outlier, what a perfect word. I'm learning a lot on this board.

[Kromm]

The transgender people she surrounds herself with ... the media refers to them as her "girlfriends."   But they're not real friends.   They were rounded up for the show.   It's not like she's known them for years, or shared their victories and heartaches, celebrated with them, cried with them  ...  It's like staging a house you're trying to sell.

 

It must be very lonely once the cameras are turned off.

And yet a lot of people are sitting through episodes of this show and coming out with proclamations that make it sound like they STILL don't realize this is all arranged.  It's strange, the power of reality TV (I continue to cringe each time I see it called a "docu-series").

 

And think of the awkward position this potentially has created for some of the people who participated. What we're seeing now was shot before the Espy Awards, and probably some even before the ABC interview, right? Some of them probably went into this knowing little to nothing about Caitlyn Jenner other than the obvious stuff from TV. And here they are slapped down into this teaching session, seeing ignorance and privilege at work, and then a few months later they see that same person in front of a podium receiving a nationally televised award for "bravery" (and a presumption of leadership--even if there's debate over if Caitlyn 'wants" it). How the heck must THAT feel to someone who's struggled their whole lives with the toughest parts of this?  That this person they might think of as something of a lout, albeit a transgender lout, is suddenly a national hero?

 

It makes me think that if Caitlyn WAS an active participant in the production (something we've discussed already--we just don't know), perhaps there's a deliberately planned "redemption arc". Lout to champion. Because you know.... fake show. Fake events. Fake resolution.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Kromm

[iwasish]

And yet a lot of people are sitting through episodes of this show and coming out with proclamations that make it sound like they STILL don't realize this is all arranged. It's strange, the power of reality TV (I continue to cringe each time I see it called a "docu-series").

And think of the awkward position this potentially has created for some of the people who participated. What we're seeing now was shot before the Espy Awards, and probably some even before the ABC interview, right? Some of them probably went into this knowing little to nothing about Caitlyn Jenner other than the obvious stuff from TV. And here they are slapped down into this teaching session, seeing ignorance and privilege at work, and then a few months later they see that same person in front of a podium receiving a nationally televised award for "bravery" (and a presumption of leadership--even if there's debate over if Caitlyn 'wants" it). How the heck must THAT feel to someone who's struggled their whole lives with the toughest parts of this? That this person they might think of as something of a lout, albeit a transgender lout, is suddenly a national hero?

It makes me think that if Caitlyn WAS an active participant in the production (something we've discussed already--we just don't know), perhaps there's a deliberately planned "redemption arc". Lout to champion. Because you know.... fake show. Fake events. Fake resolution.

Clearly there's an arc. This episode she's too shy to wear a bathing suit but next episode or so, she's in one. She hasn't even thought about dating... Would she date a man or a woman? I bet by the 8th show she's been on a least one date. Its like the Readers Digest Condensed version of transitioning. She's going to hit all the touch points and change the world.

[Kromm]

Clearly there's an arc. This episode she's too shy to wear a bathing suit but next episode or so, she's in one. She hasn't even thought about dating... Would she date a man or a woman? I bet by the 8th show she's been on a least one date. Its like the Readers Digest Condensed version of transitioning. She's going to hit all the touch points and change the world.

Oh lord. If there's a date, I won't know whether to laugh, swallow my tongue or roll my eyes.

 

Then we'll get into reality show-packaged versions of "does the female Caitlyn date men or women" and all kinds of stuff will be tossed around both on air and the net about if she dates women if she's now gay, or if she dates men now did she become straight but in a new orientation, and all kind of issues that do have validity to them, but we'll probably get the pre-packaged "hero's journey" version of them.  Lets call it "Caitlyn's Journey: brainless uneducated twit to Espy Courage Award Winning Hero Who's Qualifications For Such People No Longer Question".

 

Of course if the show culminates in a date with another transgender, do we cynically conclude it's a dodge/indecision on the question, an honest preference, a stunt, or some combination of those?

Edited August 6, 2015 by Kromm

[xls]

All they have to do is get a job... I could almost see that thought running thru her head when the others were talking about  getting public assistance... get a job.. get health insurance and everything will be okay.   

She must have read a lot of the comments on how she's coming across and they have released a bunch of clips in which  there's no soft focus on her face and you can see every line and wrinkle, trying  to make her seem more relatable.

She lives in that beautiful all white house in the Hollywood Hills, with gorgeous views and fancy cars and people at her beck and call to buy her this, get her that, take her here or there, and she can lounge around in designer duds and drink expensive wine, she can tweet and make phone calls to famous folk and politicians and have them call her back.. she lives in a big secure bubble and I don't know if she wants to burst free, she stands to lose too much. But how long can she try and fit in both worlds? Can you see her and Chandi and the Jennifers hitting golf balls off a tee into hills while discussing the latest round of  transgender teen suicides or the an attempt to get some legislation passed to fund a shelter? I'm sorry but I don't think Caitlyn is that deep. For her it is the hair and makeup, clothing and a voice that passes.

God help me, I can't stand Cait. For many of the things you pointed out.  I find her to be such a self-important phony, wanting to ride in and be the savior of a community she is totally clueless about. Jen B has her number alright.

Grabbing Jennifer as soon as walked in the door to put her in the make-up chair and pick her out a new dress, cause she leaned from  Kim that that is what its all about, right?

Ha, when Kim asked her to do the voice she used to do room service with for years, Cait was like, wa wa what? She had no idea.

Edited August 6, 2015 by xls

[millennium]

Oh lord. If there's a date, I won't know whether to laugh, swallow my tongue or roll my eyes.

 

Then we'll get into reality show-packaged versions of "does the female Caitlyn date men or women" and all kinds of stuff will be tossed around both on air and the net about if she dates women if she's now gay, or if she dates men now did she become straight but in a new orientation, and all kind of issues that do have validity to them, but we'll probably get the pre-packaged "hero's journey" version of them.  Lets call it "Caitlyn's Journey: brainless uneducated twit to Espy Courage Award Winning Hero Who's Qualifications For Such People No Longer Question".

 

Of course if the show culminates in a date with another transgender, do we cynically conclude it's a dodge/indecision on the question, an honest preference, a stunt, or some combination of those?

 

I can't see it happening (but if it does, I hope it's with Snoop Dawg).

 

Seriously, though, she kind of painted herself into a corner with that "I'm not gay, I've always been with women" comment to Diane Sawyer.

 

Because if she does date a woman, guess what, Caitlyn, you ARE gay! (or at least bi).    But Caitlyn says she's not gay, so there.

 

The idea that she might date a woman who is transgender may intrigue viewers, but I think that when push comes to shove, Jenner would consider it gay.   Despite all the cosmetic changes I suspect Jenner still hasn't divorced herself completely from who she was, and if she perceives that element in herself she would probably perceive it in another transgender person too, and I don't think she could go through with it.    It's hypocritical, but human.

 

For that same reason, I don't think she could bring herself to date a man.   Possibly she could see her way to dating a man who is transgender, because, as in the scenario above, there would be something in the back of her mind reminding her of that person's gender at birth and that would make it palatable.

 

She does seem hung up on the gay thing.   She was adamant in that Sawyer interview: "I'm not gay."   I have wondered why she felt it so important to put that out there.  I have a feeling Jenner is still very protective of her past, almost as if it's a cherished trophy on a shelf.    And even though she's started to move on, she doesn't want to do anything the public might perceive as tarnishing the trophy.   Like engaging in behavior that some, including herself, might consider gay.   At least right now.

 

You have to keep her age in mind here.    Maybe not so much anymore, but back in Jenner's prime a large segment of the transgender community -- namely heterosexual crossdressers -- would make a big noise about how they were NOT GAY.   They would dress to the nines in the frilliest, most feminine dresses they could lay their hands on, wear heels so high they could scarcely walk, but call them gay and they'd come out swinging.  They were pathologically defensive on that score.   Of course, this was back in the years when society was still pushing the lie that being gay was a shameful thing.   It's not the same today.   There's more respect and appreciation between LGBT people of all stripe -- and people in general, I hope.    But that's what I was reminded of when I saw Jenner telling Diane Sawyer on TV "I'm not gay."

 

Anyway, all of this is understandable.  Caitlyn Jenner is 65.  You don't shed almost a whole lifetime of learned behavior overnight.   If the show does send her out on a date, my guess is it will be done in a way that there is no mistaking it as anything but platonic.

Edited August 6, 2015 by millennium

[jnymph]

I dunno.  I kinda get the vibe that Caitlyn is asexual at this point.

[millennium]

It makes me think that if Caitlyn WAS an active participant in the production (something we've discussed already--we just don't know), perhaps there's a deliberately planned "redemption arc". Lout to champion. Because you know.... fake show. Fake events. Fake resolution.

 

I was reminded of your conjecture when I read this in a New York Times review of the second episode:

 

I loved seeing all these women graciously but firmly take Ms. Jenner to school, one also has to wonder: Where is this going? What is the intended setup when a mini-series about a celebrity not only pillories the star on the second episode but aggressively markets the critique of her? It’s such a pointedly executed turn, and we are obviously being led somewhere.

 

All portrayals of Ms. Jenner in the last two months have come to us in careful and sympathetic professional packaging — she’s been a master of manipulating her image so far, and one has to wonder about the endgame. The teaser clip for the next episode has her crying over wine: “How can I make a difference?” Is she about to have a come-to-Jesus moment in which she gives up her former politics and trains her resources elsewhere? Well, predesigned or not, I hope so, I really do.

 

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/03/i-am-cait-episode-2-recap-you-know-nothing-caitlyn-jenner/?_r=0

 

[funkopop]

I can't see it happening (but if it does, I hope it's with Snoop Dawg).

 

Seriously, though, she kind of painted herself into a corner with that "I'm not gay, I've always been with women" comment to Diane Sawyer.

 

Because if she does date a woman, guess what, Caitlyn, you ARE gay! (or at least bi).    But Caitlyn says she's not gay, so there.

 

The idea that she might date a woman who is transgender may intrigue viewers, but I think that when push comes to shove, Jenner would consider it gay.   Despite all the cosmetic changes I suspect Jenner still hasn't divorced herself completely from who she was, and if she perceives that element in herself she would probably perceive it in another transgender person too, and I don't think she could go through with it.    It's hypocritical, but human.

 

For that same reason, I don't think she could bring herself to date a man.   Possibly she could see her way to dating a man who is transgender, because, as in the scenario above, there would be something in the back of her mind reminding her of that person's gender at birth and that would make it palatable.

 

She does seem hung up on the gay thing.   She was adamant in that Sawyer interview: "I'm not gay."   I have wondered why she felt it so important to put that out there.  I have a feeling Jenner is still very protective of her past, almost as if it's a cherished trophy on a shelf.    And even though she's started to move on, she doesn't want to do anything the public might perceive as tarnishing the trophy.   Like engaging in behavior that some, including herself, might consider gay.   At least right now.

 

You have to keep her age in mind here.    Maybe not so much anymore, but back in Jenner's prime a large segment of the transgender community -- namely heterosexual crossdressers -- would make a big noise about how they were NOT GAY.   They would dress to the nines in the frilliest, most feminine dresses they could lay their hands on, wear heels so high they could scarcely walk, but call them gay and they'd come out swinging.  They were pathologically defensive on that score.   Of course, this was back in the years when society was still pushing the lie that being gay was a shameful thing.   It's not the same today.   There's more respect and appreciation between LGBT people of all stripe -- and people in general, I hope.    But that's what I was reminded of when I saw Jenner telling Diane Sawyer on TV "I'm not gay."

 

Anyway, all of this is understandable.  Caitlyn Jenner is 65.  You don't shed almost a whole lifetime of learned behavior overnight.   If the show does send her out on a date, my guess is it will be done in a way that there is no mistaking it as anything but platonic.

 

I got the same feeling when I saw that interview as well. I was a little taken aback by her "I'm not gay" stance.  

Edited August 6, 2015 by funkopop

[Human]

I think I recall seeing something else, maybe an episode of the Kardashian show, where she also insisted she was heterosexual while at the same time confirming her attraction to her wives.  It's made me wonder if there is some homophobia with her.  I'm really not sure if it's just something she's never truly thought about with regards to herself, perhaps due to her extremely conservative political beliefs or even her religious beliefs and I'm not sure how much her religious beliefs are similar with Esthers (who appeared to be a biblical literalist).  

 

Of course, it could turn out that Caitlyn has always felt heterosexual but felt unable to explore her true sexuality because of the appearance of being gay when she lived as a man.  It's not at all unusual for those who transition to simply not know for sure and want to explore that.

 

With the Candis Cayne/Caitlin date thing, I actually figured it was one of those PR agreements between the two to increase publicity.  I don't think Candis Cayne has been in anything substantial recently and the added publicity might be helpful in obtaining a role.  

[xls]

Did anyone else notice that she had a wonky eye and apparently couldn't close her mouth while eating on the bus? And with results like that she wants to risk vocal cord surgery?

[iwasish]

Did anyone else notice that she had a wonky eye and apparently couldn't close her mouth while eating on the bus? And with results like that she wants to risk vocal cord surgery?

She's had a lot of work done just in the last few months. It looks like new teeth or veneers, her jaw has been re shaped and her lips are either plumped or surgically altered. That plus the weird way she's being photographed, as opposed to the other ladies, she's made sure she looks the best out of group.

If she's contracted with Candis to fake a relationship, or just to be seen out and about with her, that's really foul.

[Human]

If she's contracted with Candis to fake a relationship, or just to be seen out and about with her, that's really foul.

I guess it could be foul though it's the audience that responds so positively to it.  Positively meaning increased interest.  It's such a common publicity tactic that when I'm engaging in my vice of reading the weekly entertainment news, I'm assume all 'first date' photos or mentions are publicity agreements.  

[xls]

the whole show is fake, of course, especially foul and fake is her ""concern" for the kids committing suicide. I don't buy it. I feel for the poor mother who lost her child. who was trotted out to be part of this farce. The worst kind of exploitation of her and the other Transgendered ladies.

So how can she be the hero of the community, when she belongs to the party who tries to scare people about Transgendered people trying to grab their children in the public bathrooms?

 

The crack about public assistance, really? She is clueless about what real life is like for anyone. nor does she care.

I can't wait to see her get some ridiculous  butt implants.

Edited August 6, 2015 by xls

[bichonblitz]

Did anyone else notice that she had a wonky eye and apparently couldn't close her mouth while eating on the bus? And with results like that she wants to risk vocal cord surgery?

Her lips are very weird and distracting. I don't think she can close her mouth entirely. It's like her plumped lips don't fit over her veneers or something.  

 

I can't wait to see her get some ridiculous  butt implants.

It's coming, I just know it! The woman's ass is flat as a pancake and you know that just won't due in the Kardashian world. She needs to stop hunching over all the time, too. Maybe she's self conscious about her height. She is always the tallest person in the room. And why, why does the camera keep focusing on her hands. What is the meaning of that? 

[Kromm]

And why, why does the camera keep focusing on her hands. What is the meaning of that? 

I see two possible interpretations.

 

One is that showing someone's hands is sometimes a dramatic shortcut to indicate nervousness or other strong emotions.

 

The other (not so nice) explanation might have to do with the fact that someone's hands are one of the things that totally can't be changed by a transition (and in fact the way someone's hands look has often been a gender related thing--for good or ill--because it wasn't there wouldn't be such a long tradition of slamming certain women via the phrase "man hands").

[xls]

Cait is in danger, I feel, of being so critical of her appearance, once she sees the show, that she'll seek more extensive plastic surgery, Not that 65 is that old, but it is in the elderly range and it could be risky trying to make herself look more like her trendy daughters.

[princelina]

I found this episode much more interesting than the first, due to the inclusion of the "girlfriends" and what they had to say.  (Use of quotation marks bc I know they are not really her girlfriends.)  I also have found the comments here both interesting and educational.  For the record, I don't watch any Kardashian shows and know very little about the transgender community; also, I wasn't planning to watch this show but I read the recaps and forums on this site way more than I watch the shows, and was intrigued enough here to watch the shows after reading about them.  And I admit to being rather fascinated by the whole thing - I think mostly because I AM so ignorant and don't understand it.

 

My negative opinion of Caitlin was formed by Joel McHale on The Soup over the past several years, and while I find her slightly more likable on this show and in the Diane Sawyer interview, I still think of her as self-centered fame whore and poor parent, just like her ex, Kris.  I can put myself in the shoes of the kids, who do feel pressure to publicly accept her lest they receive public backlash; it's very hard to believe that they are that "whatever" about it.  And IMO that becomes evident when no one except for Kim really shows up for these shows, and even she seems uncomfortable.  I think it would be beyond hard to have your dad/step-dad change like that and have to say "Ain't it grand!" with a smile on your face so that "America" would't think you were an asshole.

 

I was interested to meet the ladies from the dinner/road trip and hear their stories, and I am looking forward to the continuation of that this weekend.  I did think that Caitlin had a grump on her face during the initial dinner - IMO she likes being the talker and not the listener!  But at least she had enough social awareness to STFU and for the most part listen, even if it wasn't what she wanted to be doing :)  i agree with previous posters who feel that she won't be in this for the long haul, because she is just too self-centered.  And that she will find it lonely in the end, in her Malibu enclave.  She also seems to have a "nothing is good enough" attitude - as in "Now that I've had all the surgery to make me look like a woman - my voice isn't good enough!  More surgery!"  I saw people blasting Kim on here, but IMO her "what if you come out of surgery unable to speak" was one of the most sensible things to ever pass her big ole lips.  (I say this as one whose incredibly vain mother had a near miss with bad plastic surgery but still thinks she needs more!  It's not always the answer folks!)  And just to add a little PTV snark:  "Hey Caitlin - save the voice for later and for now work on the swagger!"

[koloagirl]

Aloha from Kaua'i!

 

First of all, I am learning so much about the trangender community that I did not know, that alone makes this show worthwhile for me.

 

And......Jennifer Boylan!!  Oh my God, why have I not ever heard about this woman before?  She is the voice of reason and anytime she is on the screen I am glued to it.  She elevates this show to a level that without her, it certainly would not have.  I am going to have to read her books!  Her no nonsense attitude and intelligence shine thru - her comment about her I.Q. dropping as she was "made over" made me laugh and love her more!  She lounges in the kitchen in a one piece bathing suit with no sign of being timid (and I can not say the same about myself!!)......she is my new hero!

 

Cait - I don't know, while I am happy for her and certainly applaud her transitioning after so very many years, I feel like many that her life experiences in "the bubble" of wealth and privilege are going to be hard for her in terms of being a spokesperson for the transgender community.  I hope she is happy, but it is too early to know whether she will ever understand or appreciate the things other less privileged women have to go through to transition. 

 

I am finding the show interesting and informative, just hope they don't have too much scripted "drama" in it - the almost constant presence of Kim Kardashian doesn't bode well for that aspect of it.

 

Cait is a beautiful woman, I will be interested to see how this show and she progresses......

[trimthatfat]

I'm not sure which procedures Caitlyn has undergone, but I do think it was too much too soon. I thought she looked fine during the Diane Sawyer interview. Since then, she's had more work done and I feel like it's aged her significantly. I feel like it's only a matter of time before she gets more work, but really, she shouldn't.

[Kromm]

I am finding the show interesting and informative, just hope they don't have too much scripted "drama" in it - the almost constant presence of Kim Kardashian doesn't bode well for that aspect of it.

 

Cait is a beautiful woman, I will be interested to see how this show and she progresses......

I think it speaks well of you that you're able to spot that scripted material.  Some people don't even try (or just assume everything they're seeing is true).

 

It does make me personally skeptical enough that I can't even make a wish like "I hope she progresses", because knowing there's scripted material I've spotted makes me think there's other such material that I haven't. Or at least material that was "set up" if not scripted per se.  So I have trouble trusting that what the show portrays as "progress" isn't just button pushing on their part to make Caitlyn into a hero--to build her storyline towards being one I mean. That said, the prospect of Caitlyn herself faking a lot of this of course doesn't mean everyone is. You can have the truth told by a Jennifer Boylan and have it side by side with fakery in Caitlyn's reactions, I mean.  That's what I fear/suspect.

 

But yeah. The less Kim and Kanye the better. They take an already precariously teetering execution, and weaken it even more.

I'm not sure which procedures Caitlyn has undergone, but I do think it was too much too soon. I thought she looked fine during the Diane Sawyer interview. Since then, she's had more work done and I feel like it's aged her significantly. I feel like it's only a matter of time before she gets more work, but really, she shouldn't.

The timeline of this relative to the Sawyer thing is a bit unclear though. The implication is that most of this happened before the ESPYs, but how much happened before the ABC interview and how much after (since the show runs 8 episodes it might include that) is unclear I think.

[iwasish]

When she remarked that she wanted to be a spokesperson for transgenders but after hearing some of the things that happened to others " gosh, what if they turn on me?", I realized she is caught up in the celebrity of her situation. She wants to be lauded and cheered and be the number 1 transgendered person. Invited to all the top functions, dressed to the nines, full glam makeup, the step and repeat, a few pithy comments to the press and voila, all her community's problems solved and she's a hero, back to the golf course and dune buggies.

She was so sensitive to any remark that was even mildly critical at the HRC, it looked as if she did answer some but the answer was edited out, or that she was cautioned not to respond. She needs a tougher skin and more education on the hardships faced by the community before even trying to be a face for or a spokesperson for it.

[trimthatfat]

I know Caitlyn has said she did not ask to be a spokesperson, but I mean, she comes out in an interview with Diane Sawyer, covers VF, and has a reality show on a huge cable network that I'm sure is paying her a pretty penny. She may not have signed up to be a spokesperson, but she certainly doesn't seem to be turning any opportunities for attention down.

[Maya]

I'm not sure which procedures Caitlyn has undergone, but I do think it was too much too soon. I thought she looked fine during the Diane Sawyer interview. Since then, she's had more work done and I feel like it's aged her significantly. I feel like it's only a matter of time before she gets more work, but really, she shouldn't.

 

I have been wondering if having an entirely new face at age 65 (or any age, actually) is jarring for a person. I understand that her face now reflects her true self, and I'm sure she's happy about that. However it must be very strange to SO SUDDENLY have a completely different face. I think that would be an odd feeling.

[CousinAmy]

Well, she was having various surgeries for years, so maybe this is not that jarring for her. But at 65, the skin begins to lose elasticity - I've noticed that my face tends to sag if I'm not smiling, so I try to smile most of the time!) and it becomes harder to recover from plastic surgery. More surgery isn't going to help much. (And yes, an outcome of the vocal surgery she was talking about could be permanent hoarseness or even loss of the voice, so that should be a consideration.)

[MommyToMyCats]

I just finished watching this episode and reading the comments here, and I'm honestly quite dismayed that Cait still isn't being allowed to be her "authentic self."  The transgender community is not homogeneous, and there isn't one "right" way to be transgender.  And nobody has a special appointment to tell transgender people that this or that is the right way to be transgender.  Cait should be the one who decides how Cait is going to be transgender...why should she still be trying to please other people?  Why, at 60-something years old, can't she be who she really is...whether you like it or not?  It seems to me like the only thing that's changed is that she's gone from trying to meet society's expectations for what a non-transgender male should be (and Kris' long list of expectations) to trying to meet the transgender community's expectations for who she should be/how she should act/what she should believe/what she should do/what interests she should have/how she should spend her time, money.  Doesn't really sound like much of an improvement on being one's authentic self to me....just sounds like a shift in whose expectations are being forced upon her now.

 

And one final thought...yes, Cait is rich.  She has more "privilege" than most of us can even imagine.  But people make it sound like she's done something wrong by being rich, like it's a fault, like it's her fault.  LIke it's a moral failing.  It's not...it's just different, but it's part of who she is.  And she should be allowed to be who she really is just as much as any of us.  It also doesn't make her "less" because financially she has more.  We're not all the same...but it doesn't make one way of being superior over another.  I also think it's ridiculous when people insinuate that the only way rich people can redeem themselves for the horrible moral failing that being rich apparently is is by donating all or most of their money away.  She earns her money, so why is it everyone else's decision to say what she should do with it?  

 

In summary, I'm really trying to say - can't we just let her be who she wants to be?  Isn't it really irrelevant whether we like who she wants to be?  Is it really that difficult to stop trying to control and judge her and just. let. her. be?

Edited August 8, 2015 by MommyToMyCats

[Human]

 

 

And one final thought...yes, Cait is rich.  She has more "privilege" than most of us can even imagine.  But people make it sound like she's done something wrong by being rich, like it's a fault, like it's her fault.  LIke it's a moral failing.  It's not...it's just different, but it's part of who she is.  And she should be allowed to be who she really is just as much as any of us.  It also doesn't make her "less" because financially she has more.  We're not all the same...but it doesn't make one way of being superior over another.  I also think it's ridiculous when people insinuate that the only way rich people can redeem themselves for the horrible moral failing that being rich apparently is is by donating all or most of their money away.  She earns her money, so why is it everyone else's decision to say what she should do with it?  

 

It's not an issue of her being wealthy but of her not recognizing that the most of the world does not share her experiences.  Being oblivious to one's privilege at the expense of other humans is absolutely a moral failing.  That's what Cait displayed at the dinner and on that road trip when she first brushed off the horror of Drian Juarez and others being forced into sex work and then made some terrible comments about people who access social services.  Presumably she's had these sorts of beliefs for a long while and she's voted, donated money, and even spoken out in support of these beliefs.  Which means she's actively worked against those she now claims to be speaking for.  

 

I don't think anyone has advocated that she give away all of her money.  It has been stated that she'd be better off donating money rather than being a spokesperson for the LGBT community since her conservative views are very damaging.  Simply being rich doesn't make someone a horrible person.  There are many many many wealthy people who are aware of their privilege and who use their voices to advocate for human rights and civil liberties.  Caitlin's current views are against everything we're working for.  I don't think it's too much to ask that this person who has become the face of the transgender community speak as though she gives a damn about the rest of us.  In order to do that, she's going to need to have a bit of awareness of what the rest of the world is like outside of the bubble in which she exists.  

Edited August 8, 2015 by Human

[Cosmic Muffin]

I did suggest she donate all her money and go away, but I don't really expect her to do that. Who she is is pretty loathsome, just because of the Kardashian connection and last x years of it running, and everything shallow and vain about these people. Nothing to do with her transitioning. She does care about ratings, and presumably about being employable in the future, so she is going to have to change, at least how she presents herself on her show, to get ratings up and maintain her career as a motivational speaker. And you can't motivate people who have fewer opportunities by telling them they need to try harder, work harder, and get off the assistance that makes them not want to work.

 

Googling indicates that currently California's food stamps/SNAP/ebt looks like a credit card. I don't know how obvious it is when someone is being wrung up at a grocery store using one of these cards, but I wish for Caitlyn, and for Caitlyn alone, the outdated (i hope) experience of going through a grocery store check out with payment obviously in the form of food stamps. While the cashiers and other customers look over what she's buying, and judge whether or not she should be spending assistance funds on her choices. Have the cashier loudly tell her she can't use the card to purchase (whatever), while Caitllyn hisses that she'll pay cash for it. She can defend some not totally nutritious food to critics by pointing out they are on sale and she has a manufacturer's coupon. I don't wish her to lose her wealth, maybe she could go shopping with someone else who will explain the rules of getting and using assistance, but I'd like her to experience a number of things common to poor people, just to try and broaden her mind. Let her go work in one of the libraries that has a free lunch program in the summer for disadvantaged kids. Just really do some things that shock her out of her complacent beliefs of 6 decades.

[CousinAmy]

I just finished watching this episode and reading the comments here, and I'm honestly quite dismayed that Cait still isn't being allowed to be her "authentic self."  The transgender community is not homogeneous, and there isn't one "right" way to be transgender.  And nobody has a special appointment to tell transgender people that this or that is the right way to be transgender.  Cait should be the one who decides how Cait is going to be transgender...why should she still be trying to please other people?  Why, at 60-something years old, can't she be who she really is...whether you like it or not?  It seems to me like the only thing that's changed is that she's gone from trying to meet society's expectations for what a non-transgender male should be (and Kris' long list of expectations) to trying to meet the transgender community's expectations for who she should be/how she should act/what she should believe/what she should do/what interests she should have/how she should spend her time, money.  Doesn't really sound like much of an improvement on being one's authentic self to me....just sounds like a shift in whose expectations are being forced upon her now.

 

And one final thought...yes, Cait is rich.  She has more "privilege" than most of us can even imagine.  But people make it sound like she's done something wrong by being rich, like it's a fault, like it's her fault.  LIke it's a moral failing.  It's not...it's just different, but it's part of who she is.  And she should be allowed to be who she really is just as much as any of us.  It also doesn't make her "less" because financially she has more.  We're not all the same...but it doesn't make one way of being superior over another.  I also think it's ridiculous when people insinuate that the only way rich people can redeem themselves for the horrible moral failing that being rich apparently is is by donating all or most of their money away.  She earns her money, so why is it everyone else's decision to say what she should do with it?  

 

In summary, I'm really trying to say - can't we just let her be who she wants to be?  Isn't it really irrelevant whether we like who she wants to be?  Is it really that difficult to stop trying to control and judge her and just. let. her. be?

She's a character on a reality show. Who knows what her authentic self is? We make fun of reality show characters' clothing, habits and outrageous sayings all the time. If we can mock Kim Kardashian or a Real Housewife of Bravo, why not mock Caitlyn? Is she suddenly such an icon, such an untouchable, that we can't talk about her obsession with clothes? 

 

I'm not talking about bullying or being unnecessarily cruel. But if she says something I think is foolish, I should have the right to call her out. 

 

Perhaps tomorrow night's episode will clarify her feelings even more. The episode stopped short of telling us how she felt after the HRW meeting. 

[fetching]

Am I the only one who was bothered by the way Cait treated her assistants on the bus and at the vacation house? I'd have to go back and listen to her exact words, but there was a moment on the bus when her two assistants/friends were sitting apart from the rest of the group and talking about Cait's possible interest in Candis and Cait looks over and says something about "you Cis women can just stay over there." It's as if she thinks one one hand she's different from them, and somehow special, but still wants to be considered a woman and fit in. It reminds me of some drag queens I have met who turn on women and announce that they are "more women than you" just because they are dressed extremely feminine and lots of women are happy to wear jeans and a t shirt. 

I've known transgendered people and I am accepting with who they are, but when you start looking down your nose at the gender you are claiming to be, that's messed up.

Also, I don't define myself as "cisgendered." I've never even heard that word until just the last year and I don't identify with it or want to be labeled that.  

[xls]

Am I the only one who was bothered by the way Cait treated her assistants on the bus and at the vacation house? I'd have to go back and listen to her exact words, but there was a moment on the bus when her two assistants/friends were sitting apart from the rest of the group and talking about Cait's possible interest in Candis and Cait looks over and says something about "you Cis women can just stay over there." It's as if she thinks one one hand she's different from them, and somehow special, but still wants to be considered a woman and fit in. It reminds me of some drag queens I have met who turn on women and announce that they are "more women than you" just because they are dressed extremely feminine and lots of women are happy to wear jeans and a t shirt. 

I've known transgendered people and I am accepting with who they are, but when you start looking down your nose at the gender you are claiming to be, that's messed up.

Also, I don't define myself as "cisgendered." I've never even heard that word until just the last year and I don't identify with it or want to be labeled that.  

I agree so much! I am a woman, thank you very much.

Cait is  kind of a snob and a jerk. Weren't the same two women at the back of the bus the ones Cait made stay in tool shed guest-house? No, you are not a nicer person than Bruce.

Edited August 9, 2015 by xls

[Cosmic Muffin]

The discussion the words "cis" and "cisgendered" is going on in the education thread, if you want to join it there.

[TomGirl]

I was mildly annoyed by Caitlin's joke that one of the perks of being a woman is that men will carry your luggage for you. I don't care for gender stereotypes like that. Cait is in better physical shape to carry her own luggage than most men would be.

[xls]

I was mildly annoyed by Caitlin's joke that one of the perks of being a woman is that men will carry your luggage for you. I don't care for gender stereotypes like that. Cait is in better physical shape to carry her own luggage than most men would be.

These stupid remarks must have been written for her in an attempt at humor, I hope. Like the one about the sports bra; if she's had breasts for many years, surely she'd adjusted to playing tennis or golf with them by now. what a phony.

Edited August 9, 2015 by xls

[Taylorh2]

I agree so much! I am a woman, thank you very much.

Cait is  kind of a snob and a jerk. Weren't the same two women at the back of the bus the ones Cait made stay in tool shed guest-house? No, you are not a nicer person than Bruce.

 

Thank you very much. I am not "cisgendered" so don't refer to me as a "cisgender"   I am a woman. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by Taylorh2

[Cosmic Muffin]

Are you claiming the word woman for those born female, or are you including people like Caitlyn? This is why we have the word ciswoman, for these discussions, not for general use. 

[freeradical]

I just finished watching this episode and reading the comments here, and I'm honestly quite dismayed that Cait still isn't being allowed to be her "authentic self." The transgender community is not homogeneous, and there isn't one "right" way to be transgender. And nobody has a special appointment to tell transgender people that this or that is the right way to be transgender. Cait should be the one who decides how Cait is going to be transgender...why should she still be trying to please other people? Why, at 60-something years old, can't she be who she really is...whether you like it or not? It seems to me like the only thing that's changed is that she's gone from trying to meet society's expectations for what a non-transgender male should be (and Kris' long list of expectations) to trying to meet the transgender community's expectations for who she should be/how she should act/what she should believe/what she should do/what interests she should have/how she should spend her time, money. Doesn't really sound like much of an improvement on being one's authentic self to me....just sounds like a shift in whose expectations are being forced upon her now.

And one final thought...yes, Cait is rich. She has more "privilege" than most of us can even imagine. But people make it sound like she's done something wrong by being rich, like it's a fault, like it's her fault. LIke it's a moral failing. It's not...it's just different, but it's part of who she is. And she should be allowed to be who she really is just as much as any of us. It also doesn't make her "less" because financially she has more. We're not all the same...but it doesn't make one way of being superior over another. I also think it's ridiculous when people insinuate that the only way rich people can redeem themselves for the horrible moral failing that being rich apparently is is by donating all or most of their money away. She earns her money, so why is it everyone else's decision to say what she should do with it?

In summary, I'm really trying to say - can't we just let her be who she wants to be? Isn't it really irrelevant whether we like who she wants to be? Is it really that difficult to stop trying to control and judge her and just. let. her. be?

Yes! This!

Edited August 10, 2015 by barbaralewis

[Mya Stone]

1. The word cisgender is used to differentiate between a woman born as the sex she identifies as (woman).

2. It is not the "c-word." That is short for a word that is banned from this site. Do not abbreviate it as such, please.

3. Cisgender and its use is NOT meant as an insult. It is not a label to make trans people feel better about themselves. It's simply a word used to describe the difference between trans women and cisgender women. (See #1.)

If you would like to continue the discussion respectfully, please continue in the question thread.

[xls]

Edited August 9, 2015 by xls

[red12]

Cait can be whomever she wants and since she decided to do a lot of it on a TV show, viewers are free to comment on her and their impressions and even judgements in a space specifically named for that purpose. If just being left alone and not being analyzed by the general public is something a person values, living a life in private out of view of anyone's TV screen would be a great way to do that. Since that is not the path Cait has chosen, I assume her skin is thick enough to handle some Internet comment; especially after spending as many years as she has in the Kardashian reality show machine.

Edited August 10, 2015 by red12

[jnymph]

OK Am I mistaken or do I remember Chandi from an episode on Sex & the City ?

Ugh I don't want to describe the episode for fear of using wrong words & offending anyone

I will research (terminology. & SATC)and return!!!

[SmithW6079]

Cait can be whomever she wants and since she decided to do a lot of it on a TV show, viewers are free to comment on her and their impressions and even judgements in a space specifically named for that purpose. If just being left alone and not being analyzed by the general public is something a person values, living a life in private out of view of anyone's TV screen would be a great way to do that. Since that is not the path Cait has chosen, I assume her skin is thick enough to handle some Internet comment; especially after spending as many years as she has in the Kardashian reality show machine.

And likewise, people can defend Caitlyn when it appears that the criticism of her is based on the fact that she's white and rich and was a famed Olympic athlete. And Republican. If, during the Diane Sawyer interview, Jenner had identified as a Democrat, I think these discussions would have a different tone.

[blubld43]

The transgender community is not homogeneous, and there isn't one "right" way to be transgender

 

I see Caitlyn's enjoyment of the trappings of womanhood, like clothes, hair, etc, as being like cisgender women:  some of us are really into the hair and makeup, some of us could care less.  As a ciswoman just a few years younger than Cait, I would love to talk fashion with her, I'm loving most of her choices!