S03.E09: And The Woman Clothed With The Sun

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The FBI's search for elusive serial killer Francis Dolarhyde intensifies as Will Graham begins envisioning himself in Dolarhyde's tormented psyche. Wading deeper into dangerous territory, Will enlists the help of Hannibal Lecter to assist with the killer's profile. Meanwhile, Alana Bloom reminds Will that the last time that he and Hannibal worked together things didn't end well, but Will sees no other option. Elsewhere, a new woman comes into Dolarhyde's life.

Clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHgkGldJfdY

Edited July 31, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[kechara]

Well. That was interesting.

[Tippi Blevins]

"Murder husbands."

 

I can totally see why Will is with Molly. She's a peach. Still not sure why Molly is with Will, though, especially with a kid in the mix. There's just so, so much funky history.

 

But hey good to know Alana and Margot are still together, raising the kid, even if Alana does sometimes look like she's dressed as one-fourth of a barbershop quartet.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efyLtqwdTEs

[ElectricBoogaloo]

But hey good to know Alana and Margot are still together, raising the kid, even if Alana does sometimes look like she's dressed as one-fourth of a barbershop quartet.

Ha, so that's where her jacket came from! I do like the shorter hair on her though.

 

Loved Jimmy's concern for the pets. And of course Will adopted that dog. At least he has someone to keep him company while he is away from Molly.

 

I prefer the more subtle artiness of this episode. The cuts back and forth between reality and Hannibal's mind palace were well done.

 

I might be a total dumbass for asking this, but how much of those scenes with Abigail were real and how much only happened in Hannibal's head?

Edited July 31, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[kmm49]

I didn't like this episode as much as last week. Back to being slow.

 

Great job making Hannibal look creepy in those jail scenes.

 

I hope Alana's just hanging around so Hannibal can kill her this season. I know some people like her but she's become superfluous to me.

 

Loved the murder husbands! The best thing Freddie's contributed to this show.

 

Killing a cat before you kill the family? A dog, yes, but cats could care less about intruders. Most cats I know anyway.

 

Was an African American woman originally played by Reba in the books? She's very trusting for a blind woman. Anyway, so far she has no chemistry with Armitage. Where's this relationship supposed to go? Very strange casting.

 

 The Molly and Will phone call was cute. It's always nice to see a playful, smiling Will. What a cute smile Dancy has!

 

Funny that Hannibal can get phone calls in the cell. What's next a cell phone? From one crazy serial killer to another...

 

I might be a total dumbass for asking this, but how much of those scenes with Abigail were real and how much only happened in Hannibal's head?

Me too because I couldn't believe how much blood he took out of her. Was that supposed to be all her blood?!

 

She's a peach. Still not sure why Molly is with Will, though, especially with a kid in the mix. There's just so, so much funky history.

He's just too damn cute that's why!

 

I might be a total dumbass for asking this, but how much of those scenes with Abigail were real and how much only happened in Hannibal's head?

I'd say they all were in Hannibal's head. What else does he have to do in his cell but think up stuff?

Edited August 1, 2015 by kmm49

[kechara]

I thought it was real.  It made sense anyway. As much as anything does in this particular world.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

 "I gave you a child" "You are family"... It is almost like Hannibal is Will's wife, who is rather angry that her cheating, unappreciative husband replaced her with a mistress, though still loves him, so most of that anger is directed at the "other woman"...  And Will needs to up his game if he is to handle being in Hannibal's orbit again. So far he seems kind of not ready for the encounter, though he gets points for the "old hat" comment and trying to not reply to Hannibal's attempts at more personal talk.

 

2.5 Seasons of Hannibal messing with Will, and I never had any doubts about Will doing the "right" thing in the end. 1 episode of Hannibal being shown imagining/reconstructing crime scenes and victims' houses with Will as he is being all "give in to your murderous desires, you know you have them" and I am actually beginning to think this  time he may just succeed after all. What are  you doing to me show? I think it is the fact that before all this we have always seen Will be private with his crime scene reconstructing, he'd even want everyone to leave. And when Will and Hannibal discussed the crimes before, it was always simply discussions. But this time, Hannibal and Will are reconstructing together. To quote Hannibal "what have you gotten yourself into, Will?". It is creepy and yet I also enjoy their scenes so much that when Dolarhyde showed up to do his "I am a dragon" mad stuff, I pretty much said "not now, Francis!".

 

Man, Will sure cut everyone off from his life after his break-up with Hannibal, and looks like he did it rather quick and thoroughly, given he doesn't even know Alana got pregnant and all that.

 

I am pretty sure Alana is going to die this season, and die a terrible death too. Threatening Hannibal is going to get you killed. So it is thanks to Alana that Hannibal gets to enjoy a luxury cell, nice to have that answered.

 

"If you are smart, you would use me". Ugh, Freddie, if YOU are smart you would have known to not get involved with anything related to Hannibal or Will Graham. I feel this time you will die for real, too. And I realized I rather you did NOT talk about size of Will's junk, thank you. Shame on her for sneaking into Will's hospital room to photograph him, "murder husbands" is funny though, I will give it to her.

 

Kind of sad that Abigail seemed to get a kick out of helping Hannibal frame Wll for her murder - I am assuming she is aware that is what they are doing. I get that the alternative was death for her so would do what was asked but she seemed to be rather a very willing participant. And I don't think that is Hannibal's mind playing tricks on him and disregarding how scared she might be... I think all the scenes are real, and as they happened.

 

Loved Will and Molly phone call (and that Will is a watermellon thief, ahahaha), the couple who adopts strays together, stays together. They are adorable... And after Hannibal's "you chose a family for  your needs, just like Dolarhyde" comment, needed a scene like that (Hannibal was really at his creepy and mean best, this episode, wasn't he? Including that comment on how Will won't want a child of his own, because he doesn't want to pass on his "gifts"). But, that nightmare Will had. The screen at work is not the best so I may be wrong but did Will saw he as "Dolarhyde" killed Molly? Uh-oh. I really hope Will doesn't lose Molly to Dolarhyde.

 

And now they make the "partner" reference in regards to Will/Hannibal. In an episode where they have already been descriped as a family unit where Hannibal gave Will a child and later on as "murder husbands" and I guess even Alana's boundaries talk could be read as a "Will & Hannibal are in a relationship" thing). The show is pretty much screaming "Hannigram is canon". And the people in the show talking about Will and Hannibal as a couple are just making things easier for Hannibal I think, heh.

 

 Really not fond of Jack right now. I might even agree with Bedelia that Hannibal is a better "friend" than Jack, lol. Both claim to be friends to Will but have no trouble manipulating him to achieve their desires, and puting him in danger. Hannibal does what he does because in his warped mind he really sees Will as his friend, and genuinely thinks Will would be better off -as in free- if he just gave into his murder impulses.. Jack, on the other hand, seems to be mostly "the man is useful in catching criminals, what if he gets hurt or insane in the process". Ugh.  Take that Jack/Hannibal scene for example. It sure makes it seem like Hannibal, deep down, has more concern for Will than Jack does, even though he definitely loves playing the game and is happy for this chance Jack granted him in getting in contact with Will and in a position where he can mess around with him again.

 

 

Hannibal referring to scars on one's faces and asking how much room Will has left. Sigh, Will is in for yet another scar, isn't he?

Guess they will be true to the Red Dragon ending where he gets his face slashed. Thought they may not want to do it, if they thought they had another season to go, just because the make-up for all the scars might be too time consuming.

 

 

This was supposed to be a quick "first impressions" post, and ended up being so long. Can't wait to rewatch the episode at home.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[kmm49]

And when Will and Hannibal discussed the crimes before, it was always simply discussions. But this time, Hannibal and Will are reconstructing together. To quote Hannibal "what have you gotten yourself into, Will?". It is creepy and yet I also enjoy their scenes so much that when Dolarhyde showed up to do his "I am a dragon" mad stuff, I pretty much said "not now, Francis!".

Me too! I'd like to see more interaction between Dolarhyde and Hannibal and Will. I'm not digging the blind woman. Just seems kind of out of left field but supposedly it was in the book. They just seem soooo...mismatched! Maybe that's the purpose.

 

How creepy was it that Alana carried Margot and Mason's baby? Why????

Edited July 31, 2015 by kmm49

[saber5055]

WTHeck, did this episode air in some markets last night? It's not listed until Saturday here.

[Ashura77]

A Canadian channel, City, still airs it on Thursdays.


 

 

Me too! I'd like to see more interaction between Dolarhyde and Hannibal and Will. I'm not digging the blind woman. Just seems kind of out of left field but supposedly it was in the book. They just seem soooo...mismatched! Maybe that's the purpose.

I find them perfectly matched to be honest, if one ignores the amazing/strange/eerie fact someone like Dolarhyde can fall for a woman, but a blind woman cannot judge his appearance and has her own "scars/burdens" to carry, so she is less a threat than a seeing woman could be, and then with her open and rather unfearful attitude towards him and bamm, he is lost, not understanding how someone as innocent/pure/whatever could feel attracted to him, or not attracted, but at least interested in his person. Usually I hate those pairings that need to be added for romance-reasons, but this one, I don't know, the first one I dig hehe... I think I am not quite normal either, rooting for the family-killer, I believe Armitage is to blame for that :)

[Cirien]

Me too! I'd like to see more interaction between Dolarhyde and Hannibal and Will. I'm not digging the blind woman. Just seems kind of out of left field but supposedly it was in the book. They just seem soooo...mismatched! Maybe that's the purpose.

 

How creepy was it that Alana carried Margot and Mason's baby? Why????

I though it was heavily implied that Alana didn't only carry the baby but also the baby was a combination of Verger sperm and Bloom- egg? Because she said "I carried him" then "He's my son

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think all the scenes are real, and as they happened.

So Hannibal really had the dead body of Abigail's father propped up so she could cut his throat? Hannibal is nothing if not dedicated!

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I though it was heavily implied that Alana didn't only carry the baby but also the baby was a combination of Verger sperm and Bloom- egg? Because she said "I carried him" then "He's my son

 

Margo has no eggs, so yeah, the baby is a Bloom-Verger (and frankly, that is a healthier way to go about it then have a Verger-Verger baby). But I do believe, even if Alana was just the person to carry Margot & Mason's baby, she would still claim the baby as hers, even if "biologically" she wasn't one of the parents. Just like I expect Margot to also call the baby her son, even though she had no part in how the baby came to me, she is neither the egg donor, nor the surrogate, but she is still that baby's parent.

 

Me too! I'd like to see more interaction between Dolarhyde and Hannibal and Will. I'm not digging the blind woman. Just seems kind of out of left field but supposedly it was in the book. They just seem soooo...mismatched! Maybe that's the purpose.

 

How creepy was it that Alana carried Margot and Mason's baby? Why????

 

I didn't feel much for the Dolarhyde/Reba relationship in this yet. I had more of a feel for it in the movie Maybe because our Dolarhyde seems way too crazy and in his own world that him all of a sudden trying to make a human relation feels weird? I mean, the man growls (dragon speeches!) at times instead of talking... If  But it is still too early to make a judgement I guess. I didn't feel much for Molly/Will last episode but found them adorable this episode, after all...

 

 

So Hannibal really had the dead body of Abigail's father propped up so she could cut his throat? Hannibal is nothing if not dedicated!

 

In all honesty, I expect something like that from him more than I expect him to have Abigail hallucinations or fantasies or obsess over "what could have been"s like Will does. It is just like Hannibal to make Abigail to "kill" her already dead father, and he would go to great lengths to make that happen. Also, I think in the book Hannibal

he actually presents Clarice with her father's bones

, so I thought it was a nod to that too, but not entirely sure about that one.

Edited July 31, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[kmm49]

Margo has no eggs, so yeah, the baby is a Bloom-Verger (and frankly, that is a healthier way to go about it then have a Verger-Verger baby).

I could've done without the dead Verger baby and the Bloom-Verger baby storyline! Just gross and not an appealing aspect of the show for me.

 

I had more of a feel for it in the movie Maybe because our Dolarhyde seems way too crazy and in his own world that him all of a sudden trying to make a human relation feels weird?

 

Yes, most serial killers are usually loners and I see Dolarhyde that way. I didn't expect him to want to connect with a real person. Hannibal on the other hand thrives by manipulating people and getting to know his victims more...intimately thanks to his cannibalism.

 

It's kind of strange to go from a great and quite powerful performance last week from Armitage to a meh one this week...crazy serial killer to crazy serial killer falling for innocent blind girl and showing his softer side.

 

Usually I hate those pairings that need to be added for romance-reasons, but this one, I don't know, the first one I dig hehe... I think I am not quite normal either, rooting for the family-killer, I believe Armitage is to blame for that :)

I hate those relationships added for romance reasons too and I'm feeling it for this relationship. Plus the strange casting just isn't clicking with me. I just don't see Dolarhyde as a guy who needs companionship. Maybe I'll change my mind next week about Reba but I doubt we'll get much character development from her or Molly. It's hard to care about them since there are only like five crucial episodes left to the whole series. With that little time left I want my storylines mainly staying focused on Hannibal and Will with great Armitage scenes on the side.

 

http://collider.com/richard-armitage-hannibal-tv-performer-of-the-week/ - Armitage was underplayed this week. His character and acting possibilities are too great for mediocre performances.

Edited August 1, 2015 by kmm49

[kechara]

I'm not sure I like this take on Dolorhyde's love interest.  I think she's not meek enough.  The sweet meekness of the character in the movie was what broke through his reserve and madness, briefly, I always thought, along with her acceptance of his physical scar

I liked Rutina in True Blood for the couple of seasons that I watched it. Just not sure of this interpretation. Maybe next week it will win me over..

[arcadia63]

Didn't mason say something about saving some of Margot's eggs before he operated on her, so they could have a verger baby? Are we sure the boy is Alana's?

[mledawn]

I liked Rutina in this role, and I felt she did a good job with the character. It's been a while since I read the books, but I recall the character being much more bold than the movie version, and Rutina captured that slight desperation to connect with someone. I could be misremembering, though.

[Pixel]

Didn't mason say something about saving some of Margot's eggs before he operated on her, so they could have a verger baby? Are we sure the boy is Alana's?

I thought it was implied that he was just messing with her head when he said that.

[Captanne]

Holy Moses, the show is back.  THE SHOW IS BACK*!!!!!

 

So glad to see you.  I've missed you so much.

 

Wow.  Excellent episode.  The characters have returned to being fully-realized, dramatic characters with needs, wants, goals, games to play, manipulations to manipulate, and plotlines to unfold.

 

Oh, bless.

 

I do enjoy the overlap of the dialogue (Manhunter and now) -- so neat to see Mikkelsen's interpretation versus Cox's.  (I expected to prefer Cox, hands down, and am pleased to say, I like both almost equally.)  

 

The whole interplay between Hannibal and Will was fucking fascinating.

 

Watching Will in the dark -- (shallow statement, Mr. Dancy is TINY compared to the other actors.  Aww.)

 

Nice to have the snow back.

 

Question -- who here has a stand-alone full length mirror in their kitchen dining area?  No one?  I thought not.  

 

Oh, sigh.  Just watched the episode and am reveling in the greatness.

 

One more question:  YOU CHOOSE NOW TO RETURN TO GREATNESS, SHOW?  WHY NOW?  AFTER ALL THAT SHITTY SHITTINESS THAT GOT YOU CANCELLED?**

 

* & ** are both pokes at Fuller who only tweets, apparently, in all caps.  If he can, I CAN.

 

ETA:  I really like Molly and her relationship with Will.  Is it, "I speak with and about and to what lurks beneath....?"  No.  It's straight forward and loving.  "If you need me, I'm here.  And I'll be here when you return home.  I love you."  Period.  No games.  No manipulations.  No eight syllable words wrapped in baroque iambic pentameter or -- more importantly -- threats, veiled or unveiled.  I like her and I like the way she treats Will.  (At least what we've seen so far.)

Edited August 1, 2015 by Captanne

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I would guess that her straightforwardness and lack of guile is one of the things that Will loves about her. After dealing with Hannibal, that must seem extra appealing.

[Captanne]

Yeah, I was raised by a Victorian Welshwoman (bless her soul, I love you, Mom!!) 

 

But, that means that Dog Balls and Will's balls are not what I would choose to talk about given the circumstances ... but, she made him laugh which counts for a whole fucking lot.

 

PS:  Note to Freddie:  A woman in your line of work already knows "Flattery will get you everywhere" -- nice touch about Will's prowess.  Tacky, but it lightened an otherwise awkward conversation, yeah?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Captanne

[kmm49]

The characters have returned to being fully-realized, dramatic characters with needs, wants, goals, games to play, manipulations to manipulate, and plotlines to unfold.

 

Can you imagine the greatness if they would've had the FBI or even the Mason Verger goons catch Hannibal in the first episode and move quickly into The Tooth Fairy storyline? Would've never bothered with Bedelia or Chiyo because they went nowhere. I'm loving Will now! Having Hannibal behind glass isn't hurting the show because of his mind palace. We might've actually gotten more plot developments in the new secondary characters.

[Captanne]

This show gives me great sadness.  The first two seasons were "not for everybody" (and probably not for any primetime network, really.)  But they were cool as hell.  Novel, unique story setting up the Will-Hannibal relationship that we first meet in Manhunter.  Well-done artwork and a kind of cool sense of Hannibal's insanity.  (Although I found the "serial killer of the week" kind of implausible.  Talk about "crowd sourcing" -- the number of victims were growing like popcorn.  That that happens every week without calling in the National Guard is hard to buy into.)

 

These past two episodes?  It reaches its full potential -- all that film school wanking meets up with genuine, compelling story telling.

 

Yeah, baby.

 

Too bad it's too late.

 

(Also, given the track record, I'm not convinced they could maintain this high-quality balance.  You just know an ego or two would force a return to an entire show devoted to slow-motion anti-gravity lesbian-kaliedascope* bullshit including random characters we've never met and never get explained.  What a waste.)

 

*I wish to Hell "lesbian-kaliedescope" was a joke.  Sigh.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Captanne

[kmm49]

Talk about "crowd sourcing" -- the number of victims were growing like popcorn.  That that happens every week without calling in the National Guard is hard to buy into.)

I totally agree that the number of victims during season two got crazy ridiculous but things I think got crazier this season with nobody being able to catch Hannibal. Implausibility's fine for a while if they could keep the plotlines going. Only Hannibal managed to stay interesting to me which was disappointing until the last couple of episodes when we finally got Will back!

 

I like the whole Will consults with Hannibal to catch a serial killer scenario. As long as the characters remain interesting and relevant.

 

(Also, given the track record, I'm not convinced they could maintain this high-quality balance.  You just know an ego or two would force a return to an entire show devoted to slow-motion anti-gravity lesbian-kaliedascope* bullshit including random characters we've never met and never get explained.  What a waste.)

Since most people watch the show for Hannibal and Will and the fact that most of the supporting characters aren't interesting and well developed I agree.

 

I would've been more than happy if the Verger storyline lasted about two episodes. I just could never get into it this season.

Edited August 2, 2015 by kmm49

[AimingforYoko]

They really are hitting all the Red Dragon beats. They even have Alana being a dick to Hannibal just like Chilton was. Of course, Alana has a far more legitimate reason for her antipathy towards the good doctor than simple jealousy.

Stray observation: Bone saws leave wicked scars.

[Primetimer]

Reflections in a crazy eye on Hannibal.

Read the story

[MisterGlass]

I really like this return to the suspenseful.  It works really well in the Lecter canon, and this was good.  All the little moments feeding gradually to something bigger.

 

I am surprised by Alana has taken on so much of Chilton's behavior, but she wears it better and has far more reason to make threats and carry them out.  I buy her motivation to hold the keys to the five doors that keeps Hannibal buried.  Hannibal is behaving and expressing himself in a less restrained manner now.  Alana accusing him of having his wheels turning and then his little mock explosion 'boom' was both playful and odd.  He was petulant and passive aggressive toward Will.  The hostility to Jack was palpable, and throwing Bella back at him was a low blow.  Hannibal's starting to have that caged animal vibe.

 

Will is going to do himself as much harm identifying with murdered families as he will with murderers. 

 

I think the Abigail scenes were real and as remembered.  I agree that the scene with the body was

in a take on one of the manipulation techniques that Hannibal used to brainwash Clarice

at the end of the book Hannibal.  They've managed to distribute the bizarre bits of that scenario between Abigail and Bedelia, and I think they've made better use of them in that way than the book did.

 

I am so fond of Price.  He and Will, animal lovers.  And welcome back Freddie, you horrible, horrible person you.  Freddie must have made a metaphorical killing off the coverage of Hannibal to net a print publication.  I enjoy the small moments with Armitage, like when he was reading the magazine and obsessing, and the animalistic way he attacked the slice of pie because he wasn't being seen.

 

 

I prefer the more subtle artiness of this episode. The cuts back and forth between reality and Hannibal's mind palace were well done.

 

I agree - this was the perfect balance.  And I love the lighting in this one, especially of Hannibal in his cell, and then the warm coloration of Will in the hotel while he was speaking to Molly.

[Madding crowd]

I continue to love Will and Hugh Dancy. I liked see a bit of his lighter side, and I agree that he and Molly are adorable. I didn't much like seeing him teary eyed at visiting Hannibal although I liked the consult. This Dolarhyde seems crazier than the book and movie guy, and I don't see him seeking out a relationship. In the book and movie, he seemed like he was trying at times to be normal and Reba brought it out in him (while she could). This blind woman seems way too trusting, but if I remember correctly, Reba was very lonely and spotted a fellow loner when she met Mr. D.

 

I don't understand why Alanna would be allowed any sort of power over Hannibal. Since she was personally involved with him and one of his victims, there is no way she would be allowed to treat him or dictate anything about his cell. I also find her to be too unreal now with the Greta Garbo clothes and speaking in such a stilted way. The old Alanna had something elegant and soft about her. I want to pretend there is no baby too-neither of the women are maternal and they only wanted a baby for the Verger fortune. I imagine the poor thing to be cared for by nannies and shipped off to boarding school as soon as possible.

 

I have no interest in revisiting Abigail and I already knew everything I wanted to about her. I agree that was too much blood and she would have fainted at the very least. Even Crazy Will should understand that she was not really a child, and not his.

[LittleIggy]

I agree with Jimmy about the cat. I couldn't even look at that scene but can watch all the human related gore! Anyway, why kill a cat? They aren't watch animals.

Francis' cleft lip looked easily reparable. Was it like that in the book?

I still wonder how Margo got the Verger estate. They would have to have kept Mason's death a secret until the baby's birth. Perhaps bribed a few people. But Frankie did mention the "massacre at Muskrat Farm...

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Didn't mason say something about saving some of Margot's eggs before he operated on her, so they could have a verger baby? Are we sure the boy is Alana's?

 

 

I thought it was implied that he was just messing with her head when he said that.

 

He was messing with her head, in that he DID save the eggs, only to use a pig as a surrogate  for her baby (assuming that wasn't Will's baby) - and that baby was stillborn and then Mason died. So no more eggs, no more chance for Margot to have her own baby, which is also why she needed to milk Mason before his death, to make sure she had a way to get a Verger baby somehow for the inheritance.

 

 

Bringing this comment by Fen from the previous episode thread as I think it makes for an interesting discussion for this episode too.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that Molly and Walter aren't Will's own version of a 'people suit'.  It seemed surface to me, butI'll need to see more in the next episode.  The risk is that any new relationship Will has is going to look 'less' when you consider the huge amount of time that's gone into building up his relationship with Hannibal, which itself is presented as being incredibly intimate.  Keen to see how this will be addressed.  Molly's encouraging Will to go back to the field, and apparently not knowing what Will would be like afterwards didn't do much to alleviate my impression that the relationship lacked real depth and knowledge

 

 

I think that is exactly what Hannibal's POV is regarding Will's new family, they are nothing but Will's person suit and not genuine. They are carefully selected by Will to satisfy his needs as he hides his true nature, even from himself. Will is desperate to have a normal, healthy life and be a father, so who sought out a normal, loving single mom who could give him that, but that doesn't change the fact that deep inside Will is dark and has the foundations to be a serial killer, which is exactly why Will won't "breed" so as not to pass on those genes to his offspring. If Hannibal saw Will's reaction to Molly just jokingly mentioning his "criminal mind" he'd probably say "thou doth protest too much"...

 

Is Hannibal right, or is he just seeing Will as he needs and wants Will to be, is debatable of course. Will does have a dark side (who doesn't?) but is it as dark as Hannibal believes it is or has the potential to be? He sure is able to make Will have doubts about himself, though.

 

Hannibal and Will's relationship has been the focus of this show, so any relationship is going to pale in comparison to theirs, but I think the show can manage to make Will/Molly come off like a genuine couple, give us a real feel for them and make them stand out on their own, especially as an anti-thesis of Will/Hannibal. Will/Hannibal scenes in this episode were cold, distanced, and stressful and obviously making Will uncomfortable, while one could feel the warmth, ease and intimacy in Will/Molly scene. That is a rather good way to go about it. Does it seem like Molly has the same depth of understanding of Will that Hannibal does? No. I am sure Molly doesn't know anything about the dark side of Will, he'd hide it. She knows about the traumatic experiences, given he wears the physical scars, and anyone can guess they come with emotional scars too, especially given how "public" Hannibal the Cannibal case has been, but I don't think she had a real grasp of exactly what it is Will does and goes through when he is solving crimes, or what Will really went thought last time and what his relationship with Hannibal meant to him and did to him...

 

Hannibal/Will scenes reminded of their first meeting, where Will was trying to avoid looking at anyone's eyes, hated being psychoanalyzed, and told Hannibal to "just keep it professional". He is able to stare Hannibal directly in the eye now, but he is clearly still uncomfortable with Hannibal's psychoanalyzing and wants Hannibal to keep things professional but slipped up and "almost" answered him back when Hannibal brought up Abigail. I am guessing come next episode Hannibal will try to force Will to get more personal in their conversations, given he wants to mess with him. Wonder if Hannibal will tell Will if he wants more info from him, he needs to answer his questions. Quid pro quo.

[AimingforYoko]

This week in S & P not giving a shit:
Alana: I do love a good finger-wagging.

Hannibal: Yes you do, and how is Margot?

[Captanne]

DeadlyEuphoric, I agree with you about the Will/Molly dynamic and how Hannibal interprets it.

 

How the audience (we) end up viewing it, I think, will depend as much upon Molly as upon Will.  She, the character and the actress portraying her, has her own agency in the depth of the relationship.

 

So far, in the limited time we've seen Molly and her interactions with Will (and on his behalf with Jack), I'm convinced she's smart and strong.  (Part of that is my faith in the character of Will Graham, too.  He would choose the "right" woman to counterbalance his flakiness.)

 

I dunno -- I think the jury is still out.

 

If it's like Manhunter, we won't see that much of her but her big test will be when

Dolarhyde gets her address from Hannibal.

[kmm49]

I have no interest in revisiting Abigail and I already knew everything I wanted to about her.

I totally agree. She's not needed for the continuation of storyline. Sometimes it's best to leave dead people dead.

 

I dunno -- I think the jury is still out.

 

I agree. I'm not loving Molly per se like some people are but I love the playful, smiling Will she brings out. That's all that's important right now.

Edited August 2, 2015 by kmm49

[Snookums]

I might be a total dumbass for asking this, but how much of those scenes with Abigail were real and how much only happened in Hannibal's head?

 

 

Both. I think those scenes were flashbacks with actual Abigail when she was living secretly with Hannibal, but of course from his self-serving perspective, where she loves him and wants him to be her new dad and run off and play Happy Families with Will. I read that last scene with her as why Hannibal blames Will for Abigail's death--they would have gotten away if Will had gotten there sooner.

[Snookums]

I buy her motivation to hold the keys to the five doors that keeps Hannibal buried.  Hannibal is behaving and expressing himself in a less restrained manner now.  Alana accusing him of having his wheels turning and then his little mock explosion 'boom' was both playful and odd.  He was petulant and passive aggressive toward Will.  The hostility to Jack was palpable, and throwing Bella back at him was a low blow.  Hannibal's starting to have that caged animal vibe.

 

 

Mads is killing it with this evolving, mutating Hannibal. He's been three years in the clink, the novelty's worn off, the little indignities are piling up and his own sense of ego won't let him lash out, even if he wouldn't lose every privilege and end up in at the bottom of a well. When he sees Will and all his anger, poutiness and "petty" humanities were trotting around that cell like his own personal dog pack? Maaaaaaan.... he kept trying to steer it back to Will with threats and promises, but that person suit is more outgrown then his grammar school uniform. 

 

It's ironic that now that Hannibal is, by force of circumstance, spending as much time as possible in his memory palace, his real life and times are forcing out his own share of everything he hates about humanity and tried to convince the world he was above and beyond--the anger, the spite, the jealousy, the envy, the depression. It's killing the proud fallen angel he wants to be and leaving behind nothing but the residue of being a man, a locked up man; bored and stir crazy and nothing to do but try to snipe at the people who once pursued him, feared him, loved him as they quietly sneer and tell him he's got niche appeal at best.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Snookums

[rollerblade]

Can you imagine the greatness if they would've had the FBI or even the Mason Verger goons catch Hannibal in the first episode and move quickly into The Tooth Fairy storyline? Would've never bothered with Bedelia or Chiyo because they went nowhere. I'm loving Will now! Having Hannibal behind glass isn't hurting the show because of his mind palace. We might've actually gotten more plot developments in the new secondary characters.

 

Indeed. Ain't nobody got time for that 6 hour foreplay. The entire Italy plotline could have been covered in 1-2 episodes, and bam previews "Next week on Hannibal... dun dun dun Red Dragon!"

[mertensia]

"I gave you a daughter". Oh Hannibal. Poor Abigail. Groomed to be yours and Will's daughter. Run Molly run.

I'm guessing the artsy filming of the Italian episodes was to show that it was a time of unreality for both Hannibal and Will?

The constant sage green was very hospitally.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

How the audience (we) end up viewing it, I think, will depend as much upon Molly as upon Will.  She, the character and the actress portraying her, has her own agency in the depth of the relationship.

Indeed. That is why I hope they do take the time to give us a bit more scenes of Will and Molly and Walter. I have a good impression of her so far, but would like to have a deeper understanding of her and their relationship...

 

Both. I think those scenes were flashbacks with actual Abigail when she was living secretly with Hannibal, but of course from his self-serving perspective, where she loves him and wants him to be her new dad and run off and play Happy Families with Will. I read that last scene with her as why Hannibal blames Will for Abigail's death--they would have gotten away if Will had gotten there sooner.

To be honest, before this episode, I didn't really think Hannibal had this much emotionally invested in Abigail, he liked her enough but his relationship to her seemed to be there mostly for Will's sake, he knew Abigail was Will's weakness, she afforded him and Will a special bound, and was as a means to earning Will's complete trust as an ally and confidante. I guess him saying Abigail reminded him of his sister was a clue, but even that seemed to be more about showing Will some human side and intimacy, than anything else at the time... Having seen this, I get that Hannibal also lost Abigail that day, but I am still not sure if he ever meant to take Abigail with him if Will was not in the picture. When he told her "it is important that Will sees you" I didn't see that as him saying when Will gets here, we all run away together - I think if that is what he planned, he would have worded it so. I think he was still committed to punishing Will for his betrayal at that point - whether it be killing Abigail in front of Will (and then probably Will), or showing Abigail off to Will before killing him, so Will would die knowing exactly what he lost when he betrayed Hannibal ... I can't be sure ("I want you two to be together" suggests he meant to kill both initially?). I think Hannibal tends to change his mind a lot when it comes to his endgame decisions regarding Will (kind of like Will never being %100 sure about what he'll actually do about Hannibal, even if he has a plan in mind). For all I know, Will's phone call that day is what saved his life and made Hannibal decide he will cut Will just right and give him a chance of surviving the ordeal, as the phone call meant Will didn't betray Hannibal fully. And that is also why Hannibal went from trying to eat Will's brains to "let's talk about teacups", because Will biting a chunk out of Cordell reminded him why he loves Will so much and probably renewed his hopes that he could tempt Will, and so he removed Will from "kill" list once again. Now, after 3 years of sitting in the cell all alone and dealing with Alana and Chilton's taunts and needling, I think Hannibal has had enough. He probably expected Will to cave in and visit him long long time ago, but Will didn't. Not only that, he went and got married and is a "new man" now. I am sure Hannibal sees that as a huge betrayal too, and his new vengeance plan is  probably "take everything from Will and kill him" (just like he believes Will did to him). But depending on how his conversations with Will goes, he may decide to spare him again and just settle for punishing him.

 

By the way, I now have the feeling he is very well the one who set all this in motion by writing that letter to Will, which may have been more about manipulating Jack than Will  - he wasn't sure Will would actually read it (he may have just burned it), and even if he did Will would see it for what it was, reverse psychology, he trusts Will not to be able to resist coming to help out of duty no matter what. But Jack is another matter. I am sure Hannibal knew Jack would read it, which would then plant the idea in Jack's mind that he should go get Will to catch this guy. I mean, Tooth Fairy "only" (that is weird to write) killed 2 families yet, and Jack decided they are desperate and need Will asap? Before that 2nd family they didn't even know they were dealing with a serial killer, I doubt FBI even had time to "do their best" to catch the guy yet (they weren't even done processing the bodies from the 2nd family?). Feels like Hannibal decided he is done waiting for Will to come so he set the game in motion which would bring Will to him. He is manipulating everyone and everything again and Jack is as clueless as ever. No wonder he keeps mentioning "well, I warned Will in a letter" to everyone. I guess he is cackling inside whenever he says  that. I am getting ready for a blood bath season ending to rival S2's ending, right now...

Edited August 2, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Chaos Theory]

Aa someone who has seen Red Dragon I loved that show connected all the characters and plots together.  Oh Alana you are not long for this world are you?  And yes she has taken on Chilton's roll which makes sense. Alana is deeply connected to both Hannibal and Will so having her be the one to hold the key to Hannibal's cage makes sense.  

 

It came to me this episode how much Jack Crawford is not a good guy.  We forget because Laurence Fishburne is such an affable actor but Jack Crawford has always been slightly villainous in the story.   He keeps going to Will even though  it is questionable that he can handle things yet  he keeps allowing Will to go to Hannibal even though he knows that Hannibal is manipulating Will and things will almost definitely end badly.  

 

I was both surprised/not surprised how much the episode followed the book.  One of the best parts of the Red Dragon story was the blind woman arc.  

 

I really enjoyed the Abigail scenes.  

 

<---Edited because I reread it and I have no idea what I was thinking the first time I wrote this.  Or maybe I forgot English.  Both are possible.  

Edited August 2, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Captanne]

MisterGlass

 

I am surprised by Alana has taken on so much of Chilton's behavior, but she wears it better and has far more reason to make threats and carry them out.  I buy her motivation to hold the keys to the five doors that keeps Hannibal buried.  Hannibal is behaving and expressing himself in a less restrained manner now.  Alana accusing him of having his wheels turning and then his little mock explosion 'boom' was both playful and odd.  He was petulant and passive aggressive toward Will.  The hostility to Jack was palpable, and throwing Bella back at him was a low blow.  Hannibal's starting to have that caged animal vibe.

 

Every single word of this golden paragraph deserves repeating.  Imo.

 

ETA:  I see Snookums beat me to it!!  GMTA!!  Take that as a compliment, I would, MisterGlass.  (I seem to be channeling Yoda this morning.  LOL)

Edited August 2, 2015 by Captanne

[thuganomics85]

Freddie Lounds!  You may be the biggest asshole on this show (I mean, Hannibal is a worse human being, but I'm talking about more along the lines of a straight-up jerk), but I love you for it!  She would be someone who would have snuck in a hospital and taken pictures of a wounded Will.  There is no line she wouldn't cross.  I hope we see more of her for the rest of the season.

 

The Great Red Dragon gets a love interest.  Aww?  I'm thrilled that Rutina Wesley got on here after True Blood wasted her and I thought she was good, but I did find her interactions with Francis to be strange.  She just seem way too trusting and open to someone I had assumed she barely knew.  I know she said something about knowing his name and everything, but the way he was looking at her, it seemed like it was the first time they had met.  So, I just had problems buying her inviting him in.  Then again, maybe this is me being effected by her past work, because had she been True Blood's Tara, she wouldn't have even accepted the ride home.  She would have been more "What the fuck, man?!  Back off, you creepy perv!"

 

Loved Hannibal and Will "together", working the case through their respected mind-palaces.  I do think this is going to come back to bite Will, but those two are so much fun together.  At least he still has Molly.  I really liked her tonight: anyone who can actually make freaking Will laugh, has a lot going for her.

 

Alana continue to have the best outfits and I love that she and Margot are an actual item.  That said, I worry for her.  I think she has every right to be as mad as she is at Hannibal, but all these scenes of her wielding power over him, feels like a set-up for him to get the upper hand by the end of this.

 

Price being more sad about the animals dying then the family, amused me.  Usually the whole "Mourn the animals, but not the humans" stuff can be tiresome, but this worked for me.  Probably because of Zeller being annoyed over it.

 

I do think that, underneath all the quips and lines, Hannibal really isn't as cool as he usually is.  I do think he's letting everyone get to him more then he did in the past, and I find that interesting.  And very dangerous.

 

I for one, always liked Abigail, so I enjoyed seeing more of her time with Hannibal.

 

Hannibal and Francis on the phone was a perfect end to the episode!

[jeansheridan]

Nice discussion. I like the actress playing Reba. She is a bit pushy but I think she is mirroring Molly a bit. We are seeing two couples, two ways of communicating. I think a line of dialogue establishing that Reba and Francis had regular interaction at work would have helped explain her comfort. But I love that what she likes about him, his lack of sympathy/pity, is partially why he can kill. She loves the monster as he is without understanding what he does. Molly loves Will for his sweetness,for doing the right thing, but she doesn't understand the flip side of his sweetness.

I loved the Abigail scenes. Mads always had great paternal energy with her (Will seemed more brotherly). I love she wanted to pull the blood trigger. Heh. And that she wasn't that big of a victim with Hannibal but complicit.

Freddie delights me. Will is always at his snarky best with her.

Jack really is a user this season. I wonder in his heart if he still resents Will making that warning call to Hannibal. And for not calling after Muskrat Farm. Will is an unreliable tool for Jack. And he is not Will's friend. Jack is practical.

[Snookums]

Then again, maybe this is me being effected by her past work, because had she been True Blood's Tara, she wouldn't have even accepted the ride home.  She would have been more "What the fuck, man?!  Back off, you creepy perv!"

 

 

Honestly, when he said that line "for my pleasure" I was all OKAY NO CALLING ALL THE POLICE NOW and my husband's all "yeah, that line came off weird in the books too." 

 

I hope TPTB (i.e., Fuller) don't do to Reba what they did to Chiyoh--take a potentially fascinating character and let the actor do juuuuuust enough with them to be frustrating to the audience. Why is Reba so open? Is it a deliberate choice to be "in the world," as she wanted to do after ten years of training others? Is she just lonely? Horny? Reckless because everybody treats her with kid gloves? What about that "pleasure" line got to her? Being seeing as a source of pleasure by a man rather then as someone who needs protection? 

 

I like the idea of Reba being thrilled to meet a guy who may be shy but is clearly interested in her as a woman and is ready to go as far as as physical relationship and seeing how Francis reacts to that. He's been so twisted up over his physical appearance his entire life, and suddenly here is this woman who literally cannot judge him on his looks. How she's lit: reds and yellows behind her, constantly clothed with the sun? Will she be his lover or his nemesis? 

I loved the Abigail scenes. Mads always had great paternal energy with her (Will seemed more brotherly). I love she wanted to pull the blood trigger. Heh. And that she wasn't that big of a victim with Hannibal but complicit.

 

 

Abigail has always been complicit--the show clearly established that she values her own survival, to the point where she deliberately trolled for victims for her father because she understood he was trying not to kill her. That's why both Hannibal and Will loved her so--such a perfect little mirror, reflecting all the parts of the person looking at her that they like best. Hannibal wanted to encourage her self-containment while having her worship him as a father, Will wanted to encourage the part that turned to life, that was horrified by what her particular life and trials had proved her able to do, to agree to do to live. 

[Captanne]

First, I never understood the Abigail thread.  I get what the characters think went on but I don't understand it.  So, I roll with it.  Hannibal believes he gave Will a child in their weird Husband/Husband dynamic.  (NB:  I'm not saying "husband/husband" is weird.  I'm saying Hannibal and Will are weird.)

 

Second, I think the Reba storyline is hard to get a handle on the way Thomas Harris portrayed it.  Michael Mann had the same problem.  In "Manhunter" I remember thinking at the time, "What just happened there?" when they slept together, "Too far, too fast."  

 

And, sort of, too random.  What are the chances that a blind, professional, adult woman would get laid and the guy she sleeps with happens to be a) barely known to her and b) a massive, crazy serial killer?

 

Just -- too random.

 

So, it seems the whole franchise has had a hard time with this part.

 

I didn't see Red Dragon (the remake) so I don't know if they did it well.

[Litnit]

I remember the blind lady story line well from Red Dragon. I thought it was creepy as hell when she said something like "You didn't give me any sympathy." Oh the dramatic irony for us knowing he is incapable of empathy / sympathy.

[jeansheridan]

I thought she was too trusting about the ride home. That is why one 15 sec scene of her getting Intel about him from a coworker would have helped. Then again, blind people do have to trust more in people. They trust we will respect their canes, that people will serve them the right food, that the laundromat gives them back the right clothes, etc. They risk being fooled everyday. <br /><br />I think maybe Richard Armitage is struggling with his accent and the speech impediment. Ralph Fiennes probably had time to perfect it and I think the previous actor was American. I trust he will get there. Four more eps.<br /><br />On a shallow note, Hugh Dancy looked so handsome leaving the hospital. Shorter hair suits him. And smiling during the happy family scene. He is just so good. I hope his next television role has some weight to it. <br /><br />I know the show is dead but a pity AMC didn't consider. It lines up with Walking Dead and The Killing.

[penguinnj]

Great discussion! I am enjoying Hannibal being petulant and- for him- really rather crude (the censors really must be out to lunch). And, the way I'm seeing it- it's not just said for a reaction. In Silence I felt that he would say these sexually charged or plain gross- depending on your POV- things as a way to test Clarice and her boundaries.
This time around it seems genuine, and it is a fascinating glimpse into the man who, despite what he has portrayed, is NOT all Mr. Suave Sophistication-pants. He's getting antsy and despite what he told Will life in the old Memory Palace is getting a little stale after 3 years. And maybe his murder family meant more than he even thought because he's having a hell of a time getting over them.

Edited August 2, 2015 by penguinnj

[Bruinsfan]

I figure, Hannibal having been in a romantic relationship with Alana, however much a sham it was on his part, allows for a certain amount of knowing crudity between them that would be far more out of place if they'd only had professional dealings with one another.

Question -- who here has a stand-alone full length mirror in their kitchen dining area?  No one?  I thought not. 

Er, actually... [raises hand]. I have one of this style - it's at the entrance to the hallway leading to my front door.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Nice discussion. I like the actress playing Reba. She is a bit pushy but I think she is mirroring Molly a bit.

 

I think that is the problem I had with her, she comes off pushy and bossy, somehow, and it is hard for me to think Dolarhyde would react to that well. That "I am interested in what you have to say" line rubbed me the wrong way, for example, as it sounded... ( I can't find the right word for it but) fake? Forced? Like something a teacher deliberately says to make a student talk, but it is just a "tactic" they use with everyone? I am aware it is supposed to be a line she says that makes Dolarhyde relax around her and feel better about himself, but just didn't work for me.

 

I don't remember much about Reba in Manhunter, don't think she and her relationship with Dolarhyde  left that much of an impression, but I remember liking Reba in Red Dragon and buying into her relationship with Dolarhyde there. Maybe it was the chemistry Ralph Fiennes and Emily Watson had. Maybe it was the warmth and openness and naivety Emily Watson and the way her character was written that worked. Maybe it was seeing scenes like

that other co-worker who hit on her who she rejected, and the subsequent talk with Dolarhyde about what a sleazy jerk the man is, that helped. I remember Dolarhyde looking rather like a gentleman and having better intentions, and less predatory, even, in comparison to that guy, as he wasn't making sexual passes from the get go and seemed more interested in friendly interaction. Which in turn explained her being more comfortable with him... Probably a combination of both. And I think the inclusion of the other worker and having him interact with both Reba and Dolarhyde helped create the idea that this is a work place, these people know one another, and workplace romances/hook-ups are rather common. There was even a line where she pretty much told him that he was the subject of gossip among the women at work, and they admired his body or something like that.

All of that helps.

Edited August 2, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric