S03.E03: Sown With Salt

[radishcake]

Daniel discovers some new, unpleasant restrictions on his life. Daggett investigates George’s death. Amantha endures Thrifty Town management training.

[Primetimer]

After combing the internet, we finally found Amantha's (fake) online dating profile!

Read the story

[Armchair Critic]

Tawny please don't move back in with Teddy, he is not going to change.

[Eliz]

When Amantha packed a bag to go to management training camp, in the year of our Lord 2015, she chose to pack a pair of mismatched hairclips (which I rewound twice to verify weren't chip clips from Thrifty Town's kitchen aisle; although at least one of them was Thrifty Town green) and a pair of feather earrings. She made a decision ahead of time to pack those things so she could on purpose wear them later. I mean, she wore FEATHER EARRINGS and they were only the SECOND most insane accessory she wore that day. And that day ended with taking Michael Vartan to her bed.

Bow down.

[justmehere]

Much of this episode filled me with dread. The tension between Ted Sr. and Janet makes me worry for their marriage; I didn't know if Teddy was going to snap and assault Tawney in some fashion; I thought something drastic was going to happen in the interview with the sheriff, who recently seemed reasonable and now seems out to get Daniel; and I half expect Amantha to be killed by her pick-up date, Vartan aside. The way the scene of them getting off the elevator was shot just seemed ominous to me. Maybe it was just the influence of the rest of the episode. --Plus, I want to kick Trey.

 

I need for Daniel to catch a break. Somehow, something to go right. Has anything really gone right since that lovely woman slept with him in season 1? (Maybe so; it just doesn't feel like it.) I'm afraid something drastic and bad is going to happen to him. He took the plea deal expressly to stay out of prison, and now he's wondering if it would be so bad to go back. I hope he doesn't self-sabotage.

 

Also, would some condition -- medical or psychological -- that caused him to blackout make a difference in his plea?

Edited July 24, 2015 by justmehere

[sunflower]

 

I need for Daniel to catch a break. Somehow, something to go right.

 

I feel like the endgame of this "who killed George?" story is to take back the banishment if not the plea deal.  I don't know how it would work, but are they really going to have Daniel leave town for real?  It feels a bridge too far, unless they truly continue the show at a snail's pace.  

 

I just love Jon, I hope Vartan is a short-term deal.  

 

And, I still don't understand Trey's deal.  Unless he's Hanna's real killer, what is the point of all this subterfuge beginning with disposing of George's body after the guy killed himself?  All his half-truth lies are driving me batty because he's playing a game to clearly railroad Daniel for a crime that didn't happen.  But, I don't think Ray McKinnon has a lot of interest in showing Daniel innocent of killing Hanna.  So, what's the point exactly of Trey's machinations? 

Edited July 24, 2015 by sunflower

[bmoore4026]

So, what's the point exactly of Trey's machinations? 

 

Teh Evulz. of course.

 

I've only recently started watching this show, so at first I thought Amantha was a bitch.  But then, after hearing her monologue, my view is totally different.  This season better end with a thorough earboxing of Daniel, whom I both love and hate, by Amantha.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Teddy is just so damned menacing. Tawny really does need to run away because he's a nasty piece of work.

I'm so confused about what happened in Florida, even though I've watched every episode.

[Mindymoo]

Teh Evulz. of course.

 

I've only recently started watching this show, so at first I thought Amantha was a bitch.  But then, after hearing her monologue, my view is totally different.  This season better end with a thorough earboxing of Daniel, whom I both love and hate, by Amantha.

That's the reason I've never been able to hate Amantha. She can be trying and frustrating, but her whole life has been devoted to getting her brother out of prison. She didn't have to do it, but she gave up anything and everything of her own so she could have progress made in his case. And then he gets out and does some stupid, crazy shit. You can't blame him for some things, but you can see how frustrating that would be when it seems like the person you've given your life for is engaging in some serious self-sabotage.

[molshoop]

 

So, what's the point exactly of Trey's machinations?

 

        I think his DNA was one of several found on Hannah's body.  He admits to having sex with her

        that evening , but claims it was much earlier. He wants to make sure suspicion doesn't fall

        on him for Hannah's murder, so he is framing Daniel for George's murder.

[SusanSunflower]

 

I'm so confused about what happened in Florida, even though I've watched every episode.

I'm so confused about what we have seen in flash-backs or at great distance involving characters (like George and Trey) whose separate identities  I've never quite been able to keep straight ... so Trey was the person who dumped George's body in the stream way back in, what?, season 1 ... sometimes the extremely slow pace of the episdde up against the real time roll out of the series baffles me.  Wasn't there a dead body (the same or other?) in the stream even before Daniel was released or did that occur after Daniel's beat-down (which seems like it was months ago but I think was "last month" within the show's universe). Where is Hanna's brother now? 

[Fisher King]

George met up with Trey at the creek on Daniel's initial release from prison.  George was freaking out. He asked Trey if he (Trey) killed Hanna. Trey said no. Trey asked George the same thing. Trey left. George shot himself.  That was all in the pilot episode, IIRC.

 

Trey later found George's body and tried to dispose of him but the body was later discovered by kids swimming along the creek.

 

I imagine Hanna's brother is still roaming free around town somewhere.

 

This episode was indeed full of dread. The music was good but also made it even more dramatic.

[Swansong]

And, I still don't understand Trey's deal.

I feel like he's so obviously up to no good that if this show was like Murder She Wrote or something we'd find out he's a red herring, but here I'm not entirely sure of his motive and not in a good way. His actions only really make sense if he's guilty of the killing otherwise why go to so much effort to turn a suicide into murder and then not even really effectively?

[Fisher King]

Trey's guilty as sin. He's enough of a megalomaniac to try and manipulate everyone into thinking Daniel killed both Hanna and George.

I was hoping the sheriff would catch Trey in some of his bullshit story but Trey hasn't dug enough of a hole yet. It will happen when Trey finally contradicts what is on the video that Daggett has.

[SusanSunflower]

thank you!! so Trey knows (as much as anyone can know) without a doubt that George committed suicide ... perhaps with a little existential nudge from himself ... yes, he wants a Trey vs. Daniel showdown believing he can win ... but the sheriff is beginning to recognize that Daniel may well be being set up NOW to be the fall guy AGAIN, y'know like he may have been set up -- by the same folks -- THEN.  

I wonder just what Daniel now understands about Trey ... 

Edited July 24, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Fisher King]

I wonder just what Daniel now understands about Trey ...

 

I love this statement even though it confounds me to the core.  I wonder if anyone really understands what Daniel understands about anything. As he confessed to Jon & Daggett, Daniel said that he called *Tawney to pick him up on his way back from Fla. because she "understands him." - something like that. 

 

Just about everything Daniel says tends to be a contradiction, something that makes little sense or something seemingly deep and profound (to me anyway).  I walk a line between frustration and adoration with him.

 

I do believe that Daniel KNOWS Trey is evil. He has told him as much a season or two ago. I do not believe that it is in Daniel's capability to think along the deviously premeditated vein that Trey does so well, but Daniel knows evil and he knows Trey is trouble. I just don't think he can translate anything that isn't positive proof of Trey's underhanded schemes and actions.

 

*And now that word is out that Tawney rescued Daniel on the trip back from George's - there's no telling what the repercussions will be. Ahole Teddy will be more apt to bring charges against Daniel now, I'm guessing.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Fisher King

[Madding crowd]

I usually love slow paced shows and The Killing was one of my all time favorite shows. But, there has to be something to make me look forward to each new episode. In the killing, each episode had some kind of plot point that was new and waiting to be explored, even if it didn't lead to any resolution of the crime. Here, I don't see anything at all really happening and it is sometimes frustrating to me.

 

For example, I knew exactly what Amantha was going to say when she got up at the group seminar, and I shouldn't know-something should surprise me somewhere. Daniel continues to be speaking in parables, with no real rhyme or reason. I would like to know what he is thinking, what does he want out of life, etc.

 

I'm also tired of looking at Janet's kitchen. Yes, I understand it supposed to be a representation of their lives, but it doesn't really matter with me if the cabinets get replaced or not-it won't help me understand anything about Daniel. And I really liked Amantha in the past, but she seems like she wants someone to just come and tell her what to do and that doesn't happen in adulthood. 

 

Tawny seems to have the same scenes over and over. I understand she is sensitive and her husband is an oaf and she needs to have lots of scenes looking pensive. But does anyone ever move on? 

[Frisson]

Even though it may contribute to complaints that nothing is really happening, I really hope that Daniel listens to John and gets therapy. I agree that it's hard to ever know what Daniel is really thinking, and I want him to he pushed to explain himself more.

[kieyra]

Teddy is just so damned menacing. Tawny really does need to run away because he's a nasty piece of work.

I'm so confused about what happened in Florida, even though I've watched every episode.

The actor superficially resembles my ex-husband, who is absolutely a good guy, but we had a couple of those kinds of encounters on the way out, the kind where every fiber of my being wanted to be out of the room. (I'm guessing I'm not alone in knowing that feeling, nor the feeling of being a small woman alone in a room with a large angry man, whether he's a good guy or not.) Add that to the fact that there has always been a layer of menace to Teddy/Tawney's scenes, all the way back to episode 1, IIRC, and every time they are on screen together I just want to crawl out of my own skin. Very well done. Edited July 24, 2015 by kieyra

[SusanSunflower]

and that menace (or is it cluelessness) adds it's own paranoid overlay of wondering "is he doing this on purpose or is he really that utterly clueless/self-absorbed?"  I was dying for Tawny in that scene ... he wasn't supposed to be there and then he's blocking her exit (she just came to pick up some things) and he's telling her he would never hurt her (and getting her to "admit" he never has) --  

I hope some bells are going off for some male viewers who -- on the face of it -- may well see nothing obviously menacing ... 

oh yeah, "I just needed to see you up close" ...  

Tawny really looked like she wasn't even considering coming back ... but she's been so very well trained to stay passive and bland/unreadable ... 

yes, all-her-fault that she saw the therapist and now Teddy can't countenance the idea ... or something ... because she TOLD someone something about him... 

One of my adult-discoveries about my parents divorce was that they each claimed the other rejected all possible family counselors ... both claiming they "wanted" to try to save the marriage but the other made it impossible  ...

 

I remain very very curious about Teddy's mother's departure. 

Edited July 25, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Armchair Critic]

On a shallow note does Tawney look puffier and her hair not look as good? Or am I to assume that is on purpose to show how she is struggling?

[Auntie Anxiety]

Yes, I agree that Tawney looked a bit puffy. I wondered if the actress was pregnant or had recently had a baby.

[Madding crowd]

When I say I want something to happen, I don't mean the murderer has to come forward or something major has to occur. I mean something within the minds and actions of the main characters. If Daniel or Amanatha went to a therapist and revealed some of their thoughts, if Tawney came clean with her thoughts and/or left her marriage, if Janet said what she really thinks and wants, anything. Otherwise we are just spinning our wheels. Each episode brings more of Daniel speaking in riddles with us having no clear idea of his emotional state, Amantha working at Thrifty Town and looking downtrodden, Tawney looking sad and pensive, but no one actually telling us anything.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I need for Daniel to catch a break. Somehow, something to go right. Has anything really gone right since that lovely woman slept with him in season 1?

You're right, someone new should sleep with him and balance out the karmic scales. I volunteer. For the scales.

Edited July 25, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[kieyra]

You're right, someone new should sleep with him and balance out the karmic scales. I volunteer. For the scales.

Must be something about this week's episode, because until then I wouldn't have responded this way:

Get in line.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"nor the feeling of being a small woman alone in a room with a large angry man"

I agree that that sense of unease-at-best was done really well by the actors/shot set-ups, but here's an interesting thing I just looked up: Clemens (Tawney) is five foot nine. So that they conveyed that is even more impressive, IMO.

[Syren]

When Amantha packed a bag to go to management training camp, in the year of our Lord 2015, she chose to pack a pair of mismatched hairclips (which I rewound twice to verify weren't chip clips from Thrifty Town's kitchen aisle; although at least one of them was Thrifty Town green) and a pair of feather earrings. She made a decision ahead of time to pack those things so she could on purpose wear them later. I mean, she wore FEATHER EARRINGS and they were only the SECOND most insane accessory she wore that day. And that day ended with taking Michael Vartan to her bed.

Bow down.

 

I wonder if Amantha watches Pretty Little Liars and thinks Aria is fashionable rather than batshit crazy in the clothing department. But as you said, she did end the day with MV in her bed, so obviously that worked out for her. Those damn hair clips, though! I thought they were chip clips, too! I was glad she apparently did remember a hair brush as later in the bar, her hair looked pretty good.

 

Glad I'm not the only one who thought something terrible was going to happen after the elevator opened. So much dread and tension in so many scenes!

 

Except the wonderful flashback where Jon told Daniel he was going home. I wish they'd not shot it through the wired glass because I couldn't see D's face very well, but man, that scene got me good.

 

That's the reason I've never been able to hate Amantha. She can be trying and frustrating, but her whole life has been devoted to getting her brother out of prison. She didn't have to do it, but she gave up anything and everything of her own so she could have progress made in his case. And then he gets out and does some stupid, crazy shit. You can't blame him for some things, but you can see how frustrating that would be when it seems like the person you've given your life for is engaging in some serious self-sabotage.

 

Yes to all the above, and I was glad she finally blurted some of that out even if it was at a completely inappropriate time and place. Sure, it was her choice to dedicate her life to getting Daniel released, but I still feel bad for her and where it's landed her in life. Although, again, she did get to bed a hot stranger, so there's that. Definitely beats karaoke on the fun scale.

 

I feel like the Sheriff is as confused about what happened to George as we are about Hannah and who can blame him, given the evidence he has to work with? I wonder if he tripped up Trey with that question about what Daniel was wearing or did Trey manage to pass that test? I haven't looked it up to see what would be the "right" answer in that situation; should he remember or not?

It's interesting to me how much of a different side of Daniel comes out when he's dealing with the Sheriff (or the Sheriff, DA and Senator from last season) vs. every other interaction in his life. He definitely comes across more...calculating in those scenes. More like he's playing a cat and mouse game. I get why he does it but I don't think it's doing him any favors. He didn't do it in the bathroom scene when it was just him and the Sheriff but maybe that was because he just didn't grasp how seriously precarious his position was at the time? I don't know. It's easy to see how the Sheriff might think he's guilty, though.

I loved Daniel's quick retort about the fingerprints, showing that he doesn't say much but his mind is sharp and moves fast. Had the Sheriff already considered that scenario? Did he look slightly surprised when Daniel brought up the idea? I need to watch again.

 

Everyone has already said what I think about Teddy. Jeez, you never learn, do you, guy?

I hope that's the last time Tawney sets foot in that house. She seemed to me like she'd made up her mind and wasn't coming back but then when Teddy brought up the assault, she wavered a bit. Was that because she really thought Teddy needed help and getting it might make a difference or is it that she's shrewder than we realize and knows that Teddy could send Daniel back to prison so she was trying to placate him? I wouldn't think it's the latter, but it's possible.

 

Still no mention of the Senator's stroke but I guess it's only been a day or so in show time.

 

I worry about Ted and Janet but I liked Janet trying to get Daniel his part of the tire store.

 

I get why Daniel annoys some people with his strangeness and the way he speaks, someone that still and inward-focused and confounding would drive me nuts in real life, but as a character I find him so very fascinating. Aden Young is utterly amazing to me in this role.

 

You're right, someone new should sleep with him and balance out the karmic scales. I volunteer. For the scales.

 

This made me LOL, for real! Thank you, The Mighty Peanut!

"nor the feeling of being a small woman alone in a room with a large angry man"

I agree that that sense of unease-at-best was done really well by the actors/shot set-ups, but here's an interesting thing I just looked up: Clemens (Tawney) is five foot nine. So that they conveyed that is even more impressive, IMO.

 

Wow, that is impressive. Well done, Clemens and Crawford.

[Glade]

This show has gotten progressively darker and more uncomfortable to watch since season 1.  It's just slow misery now.

 

I'm sure that Trey did kill Hannah, and now twenty years later his attempts to obscure George's death are pretty sloppy.  I seem to recall he even has a box of stuff he stole from Hannah's body...and he didn't even bother to throw coffee/cookies/flowers/grass and stuff on the body to make it look like Daniel did it.  He's deranged, not clever.   Does throwing the body in the river actually obscure the time/date of death?  Because according to the show, Daniel has a pretty clear alibi that day; he was watching a movie with his little brother, and Janet was right in the next room.  So there should be no question, and Trey will probably wind up implicating himself in two murders and exonerating Daniel when if he had just done nothing, he'd be better off. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

Trey is obviously evil, but I really need to know more about the mysterious Christopher and why Foulkes is covering for him. My guess is that George, Christopher, and Trey gang raped Hannah and one of them (Trey and/or Christopher) killed her to shut her up. I think Daniel witnessed the sex and either thought it was consensual or was just too paranoid and high to do anything, and so feels responsible for her death.

I know Ray McKinnon said he thinks Daniel did it and suffers terrible remorse, but I trust Kerwin's faith in Daniel's innocence. I mean.....

And I'm crying now. Damn it, Kerwin.

Edited July 26, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[Pogojoco]

I might be weird, but I find this show quietly hilarious. Sad and lyrical, but also hilarious. 

 

This definitely was a menacing episode. The dude who plays Teddy, describing how he essentially forced himself on "Sweet Julie" was amazing last episode. 

 

This is just extremely well written and acted. Trey is evil. EEEEEEEEEEVIL

Edited July 26, 2015 by Pogojoco

[33kaitykaity]

i am so totally in the line to relieve daniel's suffering any way i can.  i so totally volunteer.  

 

i detest the actress who plays amantha from her days of playing scottie on suits.  i just can't see past the actress into the character.  

[Armchair Critic]

It took me a bit to warm up to Amantha because I knew the actress from Mad Men and didn't like her character. Funny because now she is playing another unlikable character on True Detective.

[kieyra]

To be fair, there are no *likable* characters on True Detective, and she's playing one of those unfortunate "law enforcement wives" that Nic P. likes to write as shrill harpies.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I might be weird, but I find this show quietly hilarious. Sad and lyrical, but also hilarious.

It has a weighty sort of hilarity, if that makes sense --like how Daniel very quietly sasses the shit out of Daggett while being questioned in a murder investigation. Amantha wearing a chip bag clip barrette. The guy who said Daniel should get her a coke. Daniel and Melvin's developing bro bond.

For some reason this exchange cracked me up: "What do you mean you've already been seeing her?" ".......I've already been seeing her."

Edited July 26, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[Pogojoco]

There is a classic Canadian movie called "Black Robe" about a French priest in 17th century Quebec living among Natives. In the movie, there is a white guy who acts as a guide. I watched it in French in high school, and my teacher would say "ce lui la, il est pas mal chaud" about the actor who plays the guide. Pas mal chaud = pretty hot.

 

Watching the first season of this show, I recognized Aden Young from something and discovered he's the "pas mal chaud" guy! So, yeah, on board with the Daniel train. 

[SusanSunflower]

 

For some reason this exchange cracked me up: "What do you mean you've already been seeing her?" ".......I've already been seeing her."

and a "normal" husband -- capable of seeing anthing beside his own issues -- might take soime comfort in thinking that his estranged wife was unhappy or uncertain enough that she felt she needed to see a therapist ... yanno??  It would have a been a good moment to offer some support 

I'm freaked that Teddy has never confronted Daniel about what he did** ... and that Janet STILL doesn't know ... nor apparently does Amantha ... this would have a been a good thing for Ted Senior to handle / referee since his (very own) marriage will be deeply rocked if his Teddy is responsible for Daniel going (back to) prison for 20 years, yanno? (I know that Daniel said he was going to tell Janet, but he didn't ... and I think that was before his latest confab with Daggett -- in which he may have only just realized that his freedom is really-truly in jeopardy ... 

If it can be proved that Trey (or someone else) killed/raped Hanna is Daniel's conviction "vacated" despite his confession? My vague recollection is that a petition for exoneration/pardon is required ... not automatic. 

** and appears to have misinterpreted what/why Daniel did what he did -- he thinks Daniel meant to humiliate him ... when in fact. I think Daniel meant to teach him a lesson about how sometimes you don't have an option to "fight back" or resist -- So Teddy thinks it was much more  "hostile" than I think it was. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[The Mighty Peanut]

If it can be proved that Trey (or someone else) killed/raped Hanna is Daniel's conviction "vacated" despite his confession? My vague recollection is that a petition for exoneration/pardon is required ... not automatic.

It's riddled with red tape, at least in Texas. People exonerated from Death Row have to file some sort of petition with the state claiming "actual innocence" -- not merely a violation of due process -- and the state has to determine there is no credible evidence to merit a retrial, and that the court system failed in the original trial. If they agree then your record is expunged and you become eligible to be compensated for every year spent in prison, which is a whole other process. The state does not like to admit an innocent man spent half of his life on death row and came within a hairsbreadth of being executed because someone fucked up on their end and the appellate judges rubber stamped the fuck-up for years.

Since Daniel signed a plea, though, I don't know how it would work. I mean...he did lie under oath, and that's illegal in itself.

This is a fantastic article about an exoneree -- it's a long read but an amazing look at prosecutorial misconduct. I believe the author won a Peabody. http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/innocence-found

Edited July 27, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[rue721]

and a "normal" husband -- capable of seeing anthing beside his own issues -- might take soime comfort in thinking that his estranged wife was unhappy or uncertain enough that she felt she needed to see a therapist ... yanno??  It would have a been a good moment to offer some support

 

I don't think Tawney wanted Teddy's support. I actually think that if he'd offered more of it, she would have found that even more suffocating and exhausting. Everything that he did offer (like asking her how she was doing, asking to take her bag, whatever), she avoided or said no to. She didn't even want him in the house and wasn't happy to see him.

 

It seemed to me like Teddy understood how Tawney was feeling. I think that when Tawney said that she was seeing Rebecca alone, Teddy realized that Tawney hadn't wanted a marriage counselor's help to get back together with him, she'd wanted a marriage counselor's help to break up with him. And I think he was pretty crushed by that. It was like she was breaking up with him again. The fight sort of went out of him. And then when she started going on about how he needed help and something was wrong with him, I think he just felt humiliated and ashamed. So he got upset and just wanted her to leave. I think to Teddy, Tawney's concern felt like her rubbing salt in the wound.

 

** and appears to have misinterpreted what/why Daniel did what he did -- he thinks Daniel meant to humiliate him ... when in fact. I think Daniel meant to teach him a lesson about how sometimes you don't have an option to "fight back" or resist -- So Teddy thinks it was much more  "hostile" than I think it was. 

 

I think that Daniel assaulted him to put him in his place. I think that Daniel didn't like how pushy Teddy was being, and "showed him who's boss."

 

My opinion is also colored by the fact that I think what Daniel did to Teddy actually was rape. I think Daniel and Teddy both say that it wasn't rape because Daniel didn't literally have intercourse with Teddy, but that's a pretty naive understanding of what rape is imo. I mean, yes, the next morning, Teddy found coffee rather than semen in his ass and around his body. But that next morning, he was apparently also scrubbing shit out of his pants, and trying to explain that away to Tawney by saying he'd "had an accident." How violently would you have to "place" coffee grounds in someone's ass and "pat them down some" to make a person shit himself? It seemed to me that what happened was, Daniel jumped Teddy from behind and choked him out, dragged his unconscious body into the middle of the showroom, stripped him down, shoved coffee into his ass so violently that it evidently made him shit himself (which Teddy would probably rather die than admit), and then left him there in showroom for his father or some customer to find. Imo, that's extremely brutal. And Daniel attacked him at the tire store, which seemed like the place where Teddy had felt the most at home and the safest. I feel terrible for Teddy whenever he watches that stupid windsock man. I think the windsock man is a metaphor for Daniel, looming over the tire store, Teddy's life, etc.

 

So anyway, I think that what Daniel did to Teddy was extremely hostile. And I think that Teddy is genuinely afraid of Daniel, and is torn between destroying the family and his own reputation by revealing what happened, and wanting people to know about it so that they realize Daniel is dangerous and can protect themselves from him. He has every reason to think that Daniel *really is* a rapist and murderer, and I think he's afraid that Daniel will rape and murder again, and is fixated on the idea that if he does, the next victim could be Tawney.

 

I think his big dilemma right now is trying to figure out whether Daniel attacked him *because he deserved it.* If he got attacked because he deserved it, then other people (who don't deserve it) are probably safe. People like Tawney or whoever. But if he got attacked because Daniel is a monster, then other people really aren't safe and it's his duty to go public.

 

I think that Tawney saying that something is wrong with Teddy and that he needs help sounded to Teddy like she was coming down on the side of it being his fault, he deserved it, he brought it on himself somehow (or rather, she was providing more evidence for that side -- by not being able to love him or stay with him and, specifically, by believing that something is wrong/messed up about him. I doubt Tawney herself would ever actually think or say that it was Teddy's fault, though. I don't think that she's making the mental leap from "something is wrong with Teddy" to "that happened to Teddy because something is wrong with him," but I think Teddy is making that mental leap). On the one hand, that means he can keep it private in good conscious, but on the other hand, that's not exactly great to hear, lol.

 

Ironically, I think that what's protecting Daniel right now is Teddy's self-loathing. If Teddy weren't so self-loathing and worried that everyone would see him as "a little bitch" if he went public, and if he weren't so self-loathing and didn't bother wasting his time trying to figure out what the ~real message~ of the sexual assault was and whether he'd brought it on himself somehow, then Daniel would probably be back in prison already. Because, like Jon Stern said, if Daniel gets convicted of an assault like that, he'll be going to prison for another thirty years.

 

Anyway, as for what Trey is doing:  he was pretty obviously involved with Hannah's rape and murder, and at this point, is probably the only one who even knows what happened (since Daniel really doesn't seem to remember). I think that Trey realizes that the only way that three men can keep a secret is if two of them are dead, but also realizes that he himself shouldn't (or maybe can't) actually murder someone. So instead of murdering anybody directly, he guided George into killing himself, and he's going to get Daniel back on Death Row, to be murdered by the state of Georgia.

Edited July 27, 2015 by rue721

[SusanSunflower]

It probably "would have been better" if Daniel had gotten righteously pissed off when Teddy first asked if he had been raped in prison -- maybe thrown a punch -- and it "might have been better" if  Daniel had simply picked Teddy up by the shoulders and given him a hearty shake -- maybe thrown a punch or two -- but that's not what happened ... It also "would have been better" if post-attack Teddy had confronted Daniel (Teddy seems to be a massive confrontation avoider) and/or -- at this point -- if Ted Senior had demanded they sit down and "talk it out" .. Teddy's shame is that he cannot confront situations ... he wants to "joke" about prison rape and suggest Daniel "lay back and enjoyed it" ... deliberately provocative statements that generally might have "earned" him a punch or two. 

 

I just remembered that Tawny said that Teddy had wanted to start fresh in a new town ... but just ...mumble mumble ... couldn't make it "away" from his home turf ... 

 

I don't think what happened to Teddy was comparable to rape -- he was trying to get the coffee out of his jockey shorts before putting them in the laundry (much later in the day) ... if he'd had an "accident' he probably would have dumped those jockey's in in the nearest trashbin and headed to wherever local carried jockey shorts ... Daniel did not injury Teddy ... and that was also part of his message, "I could have" ... 

This show's weird sense of time means that I don't know how much time has elapsed since "drip drip drip" season 1 (episode 5 of 6)

 

 

fwiw, from wiki:  Following Teddy insulting Daniel under his breath, Daniel suddenly appears behind him and puts him in a choke hold until he passes out. ... Teddy wakes up from the choke hold on the floor with his pants around his ankles and coffee grounds on his backside.

and then since the Daniel's beatdown (season 1 episode 6) ... which followed almost immediately ... (do we "know" that Teddy was somewhere else when that happened?)  So then Daniel was in the coma and Daniel was then negotiating and pleading guilty to the plea bargain ... and so now, at this point ... season 3 episode 3, Teddy thinks his dad "might know" about Daniel's assault .... even though we've known that Ted "knows" what ever Daggett decided to tell him of whatever Teddy told him, and Janet and Amantha know nothing.  We don't know what Daniel exactly told Tawny or Tawny told Teddy ... 

[candall]

 

 

I need for Daniel to catch a break. [. . .]  I hope he doesn't self-sabotage.

 

 

Seriously?  Daniel has barely done anything EXCEPT self-sabotage!  And like the characters in his life, I am really tired of it.  And him.

 

I've been in his corner and I've rationalized his behavior, but that whole "Does anybody really know what time it is?" conversation he had with the sheriff during the urine test finally exhausted me.

 

THEN he has an opportunity for another discussion with the sheriff and this time his attorney tries to impress upon him beforehand not to screw around--that "everything you say matters"--to which Daniel mutters his usual "I unnerstan" . . .but he still chooses to go with the word games, sarcasm and enigmatic smiles.  Midnight train to Georgia?  STFU, Daniel.  You'd think one of the main lessons he learned in prison would be to quash the smartass when talking to The Man.

 

People feel terrible about what this guy went through and really wanted to help him.  He could have had Janet, Ted, Tawny, Jared, Amantha, Jon and Melvin all supporting him, with no effort at all.  (That's more people than I have!)  He's been so successful dismantling that support structure, I assumed he was going to ruin the swimming pool somehow, as well.

[candall]

Yes, it was Michael Vartan, but it could have been Shrek as long as he said those magic words:

You've had a hard time and you accomplished something extraordinary.

 

 

How about Trey dropping Waiting For Godot into the convo?  Beckett fan.

[SusanSunflower]

In some ways, demonstrating middle-American reticence and denial, Daniel has been left at loose ends to figure things out. Most everyone has gotten back to something resembling normal lives without having had many "serious conversations" about the future or the past -- all so very painful and/or uncertain, so we'll just pretend it never happened ... oh, and fish and guests spoil after -- what was it? -- 3 days.  Daniel's befuddlement wrt his own guilt and accepting the guilty plea does take the shine off of Amantha's Joan of Arc crusading. It feels to me as if they are all either hoping or assuming Daniel will ask for and accept help  -- and/or --someone else is "being there" for Daniel, when in fact he seems to be rattling around, rather purposelessly. He's not in need of a vacation, what he needs is a reason and a milieu in which he can engage in a routine consistent fashion, yeah, like a job, nothing too strenuous, but structured, more like Amantha at Thrifty Town (in contrast to some "lost opportunity" to hang out at the tire store waiting for someone to show up needing tires). I agree, I'm really at a loss how the tire store supports Ted/Janet and Teddy/Tawny much less whomever actually works in the back getting dirty changing out and balancing tires ... Does Teddy have an in the trenches/DIY side I'm not seeing ... he seems mostly concerned with optics. Whatever became of the dead-beat first-and-only tire-rim-rental guy? We saw that Teddy had little hesitance to engage competently in that fistfight. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[rue721]

I don't think what happened to Teddy was comparable to rape -- he was trying to get the coffee out of his jockey shorts before putting them in the laundry (much later in the day) ... if he'd had an "accident' he probably would have dumped those jockey's in in the nearest trashbin and headed to wherever local carried jockey shorts ... Daniel did not injury Teddy ... and that was also part of his message, "I could have" ... 

 

You don't need to use a nail brush to scrub out your pants, and you don't need to concoct an explanation for your wife about why you shat yourself, if all that dirtied up your pants in the first place were some dry, unused coffee grounds. Since Teddy was apparently trying to hide and then explain away shit on his pants, I assume that he actually did have shit on his pants. And that's a pretty clear sign of anal rape afaik. Not that being choked out, stripped down, sexually assaulted, and then abandoned unconscious in the middle of the showroom floor at the family business isn't terrifying in its own right, regardless of whether Daniel could be on the hook specifically for rape or not.

 

I actually thought Tawney was going to think back on that incident after Daniel told her that he'd done something to Teddy that "wasn't rape, but was violent." Tawney tries to be so high-minded, though, so in retrospect, it makes sense that she didn't put two and two together about that.

 

Also, it was the morning just after the assault when Tawney found Teddy in the laundry room. It was very early in the day, before he went to work -- I remember her offering to make him some poached eggs for breakfast, because she thought they would be easy on his stomach. So presumably he woke up and tried to clean up the coffee in the tire store showroom, and then went home to clean himself up -- which was when Tawney found him.

 

Well anyway, I just can't see Daniel the same way after he did that to Teddy.

 

I just remembered that Tawny said that Teddy had wanted to start fresh in a new town ... but just ...mumble mumble ... couldn't make it "away" from his home turf ...

 

Tawney told Daniel that Teddy had had ambitions to open a branch of the tire store somewhere outside Paulie, but in the end, he couldn't leave his family. Given how important the family seems to be to Teddy, I find that easy to believe.

[rue721]

I agree, I'm really at a loss how the tire store supports Ted/Janet and Teddy/Tawny much less whomever actually works in the back getting dirty changing out and balancing tires ... Does Teddy have an in the trenches/DIY side I'm not seeing ... he seems mostly concerned with optics. Whatever became of the dead-beat first-and-only tire-rim-rental guy? We saw that Teddy had little hesitance to engage competently in that fistfight. 

 

I think that most of the tire store's income comes from contracts with some big clients (clients such as: the county/govt, agricultural corporations, trucking companies, etc). What makes me think that is, in the first season of the show, the Sheriff told Teddy that the tire store had lost its bid to outfit the county's fleet of law enforcement cars. If the tire store had gotten that bid, that would have been a huge deal financially.

 

Maybe there are other bids that they've won in the past, other big clients that have been loyal to them, etc, and that's their major income stream even now. That would also explain why everyone was all DaFuck? about Teddy's plan to rent rims to individual people. It seems like a really two-bit idea compared to a job like outfitting all of Paulie's highway patrol vehicles.

[candall]

Gosh, Rue721, you seem so certain Teddy was penetrated and sodomized, I can see why your perception of Daniel's character would do a 180.  However, I think most people are of the opinion the assault ended with the application of wet coffee grounds to Teddy's external ass area. 

 

Ironically, that's more difficult to explain to your wife than just muttering "shart." 

 

I think it's very rare when a female rape victim does not have to defend herself against questions suggesting she might be partly to blame:    What were you wearing?  How hard did you fight back?  Were you acting in any way provocative?

I can imagine it would feel like the greatest thing in the world if someone who's been put through that insulting process suddenly had the strength and opportunity--or a magic wand--to SHOW the examiners exactly how they might have ended up in identical danger.

 

So, to me, that's exactly what happened to Teddy.  He was smirking about how Daniel must have voluntarily submitted to sexual assault in prison and Daniel turned around and showed him that permission isn't at all necessary.  

 

It was a stupid move on Daniel's part because obviously Teddy would never forgive him.  But having permanently alienated Teddy anyway, it's even more stupid and stubborn to refuse explaining the circumstances. 

 

And we're back to that self-sabotage thing.

Edited July 29, 2015 by candall

[peeayebee]

Gosh, Rue721, you seem so certain Teddy was penetrated and sodomized, I can see why your perception of Daniel's character would do a 180.  However, I think most people are of the opinion the assault ended with the application of wet coffee grounds to Teddy's external ass area. 

I always thought they were dry. I don't mean to sound flippant. In any case, I don't think Daniel shoved grounds up Teddy's ass violently, or at all. I got the impression he just took the coffee can and shook out the grounds onto Teddy's exposed ass. I admit I was confused about Teddy later scrubbing his pants or underwear -- I can't remember which, and I haven't rewatched the ep since it originally aired -- but is it possible that when Daniel choked him out that Teddy shat his pants?

 

Re this ep, I may have to rewatch because I was jet lagged and nodded off at one point, which is not to say the ep was boring to me. I'm kind of fascinated by Daniel's self-sabotaging. I don't really think it's intentional, but he can't help being a smart ass when he doesn't respect or trust the other person, like Daggett.

 

As for Daggett, I think he really does want to get at the truth. I don't think he has it out for Daniel, but he's not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Same for how he views Trey. 

[SusanSunflower]

What I found so interesting about Teddy's response to Daniel's attack was his passivity ... how about getting angry, even outraged?  Why NOT confront Daniel? (or for that mattter, contact the police and file a complaint, request a restraining order ... etc.) Why keep this secret from your wife?  Yes, Daniel blindsided Teddy and knocked him out and left him unconscious on the floor of the tire shop with his pants pulled down and his backside festooned with coffee grounds/ground coffee ... to wake up some time later "dirtied" .... (Daniel could not -- imho -- know that Teddy would wake up before his dad arrived at the beginning of the next business day, or before a worried Tawny came looking for him ...) in fact -- again in the "who knows what" alternate reality challenge -- we don't know what Daniel thinks happened after he left Teddy, or if he has noticed that Teddy apparently had kept the incident an unmentionable secret ... 

[editorgrrl]

What I found so interesting about Teddy's response to Daniel's attack was his passivity. How about getting angry, even outraged? Why NOT confront Daniel? (or for that mattter, contact the police and file a complaint, request a restraining order, etc.) Why keep this secret from your wife?

Denial. Shame. Teddy wants Tawney back, but talking to a therapist about his assault was a dealbreaker.

And Tawney didn't back down.

[justmehere]

Seriously?  Daniel has barely done anything EXCEPT self-sabotage!

 

 

Yeah. Seriously. The guy doesn't have a clue about how to behave in the world. He may have read every book there is, but that isn't life. He's impulsive and reactionary, like a kid, like a teenager, arrested mentally as far as social skills, and he's blundering around with no idea how to help himself.

 

When he first got out, he pulled things out of the attic that he enjoyed as a teen, picking up where he left off, playing. The first girl he met, who was nice to him, he fell in love. Someone threatened him, he fought back without thinking. That has consequences, yes, but that doesn't mean that he wanted to go back to prison. As I see it, he's scared out of his wits. He's an explosive teenager without a clue. Yet everyone expects him to be a "normal" 38 year old man who knows what he wants and how to make his way in the world. Family members may ask if he needs help, but what 18 year old admits that he can't handle things? And he is working with the social skills of a kid who never had college years or a job where he had a chance to learn. Every time someone says he can't do this or that thing, it's like they're scolding a child. He then agrees, like he's filing it away; like he's trying to learn. It's like he was in suspended animation and just woke up in the future. Not that much time has passed either.

 

So maybe there's an argument that by 18 he should have known more, that he should recall at least that level. Perhaps. But he doesn't seem... I don't know if it's Asperger's or what. He's obviously intelligent, but it doesn't seem like he was even as mature or on the same social level as his friends were back then. (Not that they were anything like mature either.) And after 20 years in nearly complete isolation, who knows?

 

Again, he took the plea deal specifically to stay out of prison. Now he's wondering if prison was such a bad place. That's a BIG shift, and bringing about a return there -- at whatever level of conscious or unconscious behavior -- is different from not knowing how to behave like an adult, control his impulses, and stay out of trouble. To me, his most recent behavior seems more self-destructive than it did before. MMV.

 

ETA: Thinking about this some more, I guess the shift almost makes sense. With the plea deal, he maybe expected that things would calm down, be set to rest. But now his family is upset with him, and things are going from bad to worse with discovery of George's death. While prison was terrible, at least he knew what to expect. Recent actions are possibly frustration speaking: "What more do you want from me? You want to prove I'm a bad person? All right then." Yet having thoughts of going back is one thing and bringing it about is a whole other. And I hope he doesn't self-sabotage to that point.

Edited July 30, 2015 by justmehere

[Fex]

There is a classic Canadian movie called "Black Robe" about a French priest in 17th century Quebec living among Natives. In the movie, there is a white guy who acts as a guide. I watched it in French in high school, and my teacher would say "ce lui la, il est pas mal chaud" about the actor who plays the guide. Pas mal chaud = pretty hot.

 

Watching the first season of this show, I recognized Aden Young from something and discovered he's the "pas mal chaud" guy! So, yeah, on board with the Daniel train. 

THANK YOU! You just blew my mind. I watched that movie in school, too. I never recognized Aden Young, but as soon as I read this post, it totally clicked.

My opinion is also colored by the fact that I think what Daniel did to Teddy actually was rape. I think Daniel and Teddy both say that it wasn't rape because Daniel didn't literally have intercourse with Teddy, but that's a pretty naive understanding of what rape is imo. I mean, yes, the next morning, Teddy found coffee rather than semen in his ass and around his body. But that next morning, he was apparently also scrubbing shit out of his pants, and trying to explain that away to Tawney by saying he'd "had an accident." How violently would you have to "place" coffee grounds in someone's ass and "pat them down some" to make a person shit himself? It seemed to me that what happened was, Daniel jumped Teddy from behind and choked him out, dragged his unconscious body into the middle of the showroom, stripped him down, shoved coffee into his ass so violently that it evidently made him shit himself (which Teddy would probably rather die than admit), and then left him there in showroom for his father or some customer to find.

 

 

I always thought they were dry. I don't mean to sound flippant. In any case, I don't think Daniel shoved grounds up Teddy's ass violently, or at all. I got the impression he just took the coffee can and shook out the grounds onto Teddy's exposed ass. I admit I was confused about Teddy later scrubbing his pants or underwear -- I can't remember which, and I haven't rewatched the ep since it originally aired -- but is it possible that when Daniel choked him out that Teddy shat his pants?

I think I remember someone saying specifically that there was no penetration, or insertion, or something, so it wasn't technically rape. Maybe the sheriff to Ted? I'm not sure. Anyway, so I always thought he just pulled down his pants and poured the coffee grounds on. "Just"... I do think choking someone out is pretty bad in itself. And so is taunting someone's prison rape.

 

I cringe so much when watching this show. Tawny and Ted. Daniel with his lawyer and the Sheriff. He's not helping himself.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Fex