A Place For Questions & Educational Links

[Bastet]

If Jazz (or Caitlyn Jenner) has to take hormones for the rest of their lives, and androgen-blockers to prevent male characteristics, doesn't that mean that they really are boys/men? If they were "women," they would not need to take estrogen for the rest of their lives and testostorone blockers - I'm Caitlyn Jenner's age, and I certainly don't need to take hormones for the rest of my life to continue to be a woman.

 

That's just part of being transgender, not an indication they aren't "real" women.

 

The body doesn't always function properly without help; would you have any doubts about the realness of a Type I diabetic who needs to take insulin because their pancreas doesn't produce it on its own?

 

I understand that being transgender is more complicated - and less understood - than being diabetic, of course.  But the fact her body needs help doing something it should be doing on its own doesn't automatically become some suspect, diminishing thing because it's related to being transgender rather than something more common.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Bastet

[jacksgirl]

Although very simplified and an obvious set up, I liked Jazz's brothers talk with their friend working on the car. Paraphrasing, Jazz was born a boy, but her brain was that of a girl. I teach little children, so I always go for the simple although I am realizing that gender identity is far from simple. I think of all of the kids I teach. Some girls are very girly, always wanting to wear dresses and sparkles, playing in the dramatic play, avoiding some of my louder boys. Other girls seek out the boys, are more rough and tumble and hate dresses. The differences between the two are huge. Same thing with the 4 and 5 year old boys I have taught over the years, some boys are much more docile, and even though I know boys this age are not pumped full of testosterone, it sure seems like some of my boys are. The whole gender as a continuum makes so much sense to me.

Edited July 31, 2015 by jacksgirl

[operalover]

The only thing that bothered me about a child making the decisions and being irreversible is when they agree at a young age to allow themselves to become sterile. I know many young people could say "I don't want biological children ever" and then change their mind once they hit 30 years old. I never wanted kids until my late 20's then I really wanted kids! One documentary that I saw was asking a male to female transgender young woman if she wanted to save her sperm for the future for childbearing. She said no. This bothered me quite a bit as she may meet and marry someone in the future and they may want children and have to get a sperm donor. To me that type of decision you cannot make at age 15.

[Bastet]

They addressed that in the documentary, as one of their big hesitations, and it looks like it will be discussed in an upcoming episode, too.

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

 

Fun fact: there is a direct correlation between height and onset of menstruation. The vast majority of women will remain the height they were when they first began menstruating. Not much growth happens after that milestone, because of the effects of hormones on the growth plates. It was interesting for me to see Jazz get to (in effect) choose her height by opting to delay estrogen. I'm 5'1" and I would have loved to have the choice :P

Once girls start their periods, they are on a timetable. They get two years to get their growth in. Once that two year period is over there is basically no growth. The growth plates shut down. ( I work for a pediatric orthopedic clinic and we deal with scoliosis patients who are only able to be braced until they stop growing). 

 

 

I think of all of the kids I teach. Some girls are very girly, always wanting to wear dresses and sparkles, playing in the dramatic play, avoiding some of my louder boys. Other girls seek out the boys, are more rough and tumble and hate dresses. The differences between the two are huge.

My younger daughter decided at age 3 that she was a boy - for about two weeks. She and her friend were both boys and gave each other boy names and ran around doing traditional "boy things" (catching frogs, playing in the mud, playing with cars and traditional male toys). I said nothing. After that she was more a traditional "tomboy" but IMHO it was because 1) she was very active physically and always needed to be amused outside and 2) she was rebelling against her very feminine sister. All this passed with time and now she's just a regular woman. IMHO perhaps it's a phase that some girls (and boys) pass through - trying on traditional roles and discarding them over time. 

[BradandJanet]

My younger daughter decided at age 3 that she was a boy - for about two weeks. She and her friend were both boys and gave each other boy names and ran around doing traditional "boy things" (catching frogs, playing in the mud, playing with cars and traditional male toys). I said nothing. After that she was more a traditional "tomboy" but IMHO it was because 1) she was very active physically and always needed to be amused outside and 2) she was rebelling against her very feminine sister. All this passed with time and now she's just a regular woman. IMHO perhaps it's a phase that some girls (and boys) pass through - trying on traditional roles and discarding them over time.

And why not? Sexuality is one of the many aspects of self that we explore in our journey to adulthood. A lovely childhood is one in which all possibilities are open.

.

[rck]

I've read that it's fairly common for kids to go through a phase where they want to be the other gender. Both my best friend and I really wanted to be boys for a while when we were kids. That did not go over well at all with my very conservative parents, but that's another story.

 

Anyway, the difference is, of course, that for transgender kids it isn't a phase.

[CousinAmy]

Once girls start their periods, they are on a timetable. They get two years to get their growth in. Once that two year period is over there is basically no growth. The growth plates shut down. ( I work for a pediatric orthopedic clinic and we deal with scoliosis patients who are only able to be braced until they stop growing). 

 

My younger daughter decided at age 3 that she was a boy - for about two weeks. She and her friend were both boys and gave each other boy names and ran around doing traditional "boy things" (catching frogs, playing in the mud, playing with cars and traditional male toys). I said nothing. After that she was more a traditional "tomboy" but IMHO it was because 1) she was very active physically and always needed to be amused outside and 2) she was rebelling against her very feminine sister. All this passed with time and now she's just a regular woman. IMHO perhaps it's a phase that some girls (and boys) pass through - trying on traditional roles and discarding them over time. 

My question has to do with the definition of being a girl/woman. I guess we can reduce it to the absurd and say that no one really knows what being a woman is, but I wonder if it doesn't just come down to, wanting to have long hair and sparkly dresses. I don't know exactly how a 2-year-old can know that in 20 years they will want to be a woman; what does that even mean? (Didn't Jazz say she knew she was a girl from the time she was 2? What would she know about being a girl/young woman/adult woman at that age?) I haven't watched the original documentary, but I'm guessing from what they show on this series that she wanted to wear dresses -  perhaps being influenced by her big sister who was basically her role model, although she was still a little girl herself when Jazz was 2. 

[Human]

 

Didn't Jazz say she knew she was a girl from the time she was 2? What would she know about being a girl/young woman/adult woman at that age?

By around that age, sometimes later depending on when they can vocalize, almost all children are able to express what gender they are.  For cisgender children, we believe them when they say "I am a boy" or "I am a girl".  They know about being the gender they say they are because that's the gender they are.  Consider yourself, you just know that you are a woman or a man, without question.  It's not any different for transgender people.

 

 

perhaps being influenced by her big sister who was basically her role model, although she was still a little girl herself when Jazz was 2.

Having one's tastes and interests influenced by an older sibling isn't at all comparable to defining one's own gender.  These things aren't influenced.  

[CousinAmy]

By around that age, sometimes later depending on when they can vocalize, almost all children are able to express what gender they are.  For cisgender children, we believe them when they say "I am a boy" or "I am a girl".  They know about being the gender they say they are because that's the gender they are.  Consider yourself, you just know that you are a woman or a man, without question.  It's not any different for transgender people.

 

Having one's tastes and interests influenced by an older sibling isn't at all comparable to defining one's own gender.  These things aren't influenced.  

I actually did some reading up the past two hours. Mostly what I found were quotes about Jazz wanting to wear dresses and play with girls' toys. This is perfectly normal for a 2 or 3 year old, girl or boy. There is no indication that she understood any more about being a woman than any 2 or 3 year old. From The Advocate, quoting her mother:  "That was the moment she made the decision to allow her 3-year-old child to transition. At the time, Jazz was already expressing her desire to dress in girls’ clothes and to play with girls’ toys. “She was still trying to figure things out,” says Jeanette, “she wanted so bad to be a girl. I did her hair like a little girl and I called her a little girl for the first time.” https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2015/07/29/i-am-jazz-jennings-14-transgender-and-star-my-own-docu-series

 

From a 2007 interview with ABC News, when Jazz was still in kindergarten: "Living as a Girl

So how does a 5-year-old biological boy begin living as a girl? For Jazz, it meant growing her hair out, piercing her ears, and wearing dresses everywhere -- even to kindergarten." and

 

"Jazz also showed Walters a drawing of a little girl with a tear-streaked face. Jazz drew it when she was in pre-school and still dressing as a boy. Asked by Walters why the little girl was crying, Jazz said, "Because she wants to wear the dress to school."

Now allowed to wear a dress, Renee reports that Jazz enjoys going to school and has lots of friends. If Jazz hadn't been allowed to transition, Renee said, Jazz today would be "very depressed" and "suffering." http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3088298&page=3

 

It sounds like the motivation was to wear girls' clothing and play with girls' toys, and not any overwhelming desire to be a woman. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know what other motivation there was. (And I'm much too old to remember if I thought I was a boy or girl when I was 2. Maybe I decided I wanted to be a Mommy back then, because I was always photographed holding a doll. But the funny thing is that when I grew up, I realized that I had never wanted to have children.)

Edited August 1, 2015 by CousinAmy

[Human]

I actually did some reading up the past two hours. Mostly what I found were quotes about Jazz wanting to wear dresses and play with girls' toys. This is perfectly normal for a 2 or 3 year old, girl or boy. There is no indication that she understood any more about being a woman than any 2 or 3 year old. From The Advocate, quoting her mother:  "That was the moment she made the decision to allow her 3-year-old child to transition. At the time, Jazz was already expressing her desire to dress in girls’ clothes and to play with girls’ toys. “She was still trying to figure things out,” says Jeanette, “she wanted so bad to be a girl. I did her hair like a little girl and I called her a little girl for the first time.” https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2015/07/29/i-am-jazz-jennings-14-transgender-and-star-my-own-docu-series

 

From a 2007 interview with ABC News, when Jazz was still in kindergarten: "Living as a Girl

So how does a 5-year-old biological boy begin living as a girl? For Jazz, it meant growing her hair out, piercing her ears, and wearing dresses everywhere -- even to kindergarten." and

 

"Jazz also showed Walters a drawing of a little girl with a tear-streaked face. Jazz drew it when she was in pre-school and still dressing as a boy. Asked by Walters why the little girl was crying, Jazz said, "Because she wants to wear the dress to school."

Now allowed to wear a dress, Renee reports that Jazz enjoys going to school and has lots of friends. If Jazz hadn't been allowed to transition, Renee said, Jazz today would be "very depressed" and "suffering." http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3088298&page=3

 

It sounds like the motivation was to wear girls' clothing and play with girls' toys, and not any overwhelming desire to be a woman. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know what other motivation there was. (And I'm much too old to remember if I thought I was a boy or girl when I was 2. Maybe I decided I wanted to be a Mommy back then, because I was always photographed holding a doll. But the funny thing is that when I grew up, I realized that I had never wanted to have children.)

I'm not really sure what sort of point you are trying to make.  You are a woman (and I'm making an assumption based on your username and some other comments you've made, so I apologize if I'm wrong).  You likely have a desire to present yourself as such.  That means you present yourself in a way that makes it clear to others you are a woman.  Presentation of gender is a socially constructed thing.  Fashions, hair, mannerisms...all of these things change over time.  In some cultures, presenting one's self as a woman means wearing drab, single colored full bodied coverings.  In other places, like in Jazz's world, for little girls it means dresses, sparkly things, long hair, pierced ears, etc.  Of course, there are variations within each culture, I'm not making blanket statements here.  

 

The motivation was that Jazz knew she was a girl and being forced to present as a boy was distressing because it felt wrong.  Much like it would feel wrong to you if you were forced to have facial hair, forced to lower your voice, forced to do all sorts of things that present you as a typical male in your world.  

 

We know Jazz knew she was a girl because she's told us, her parents have told us, even her doctors have told us.  This isn't a person playing dress up, nor is it a person experimenting.  People, professionals specifically, can actually tell when something is on the spectrum of experimentation.  

 

Whether or not you remember the exact moment when you knew what gender you were is completely irrelevant.  You know you knew because you've lived your whole life as that gender.  I'm not sure what the Mommy comment is all about because becoming a parent is usually a choice whereas gender identity isn't.  You didn't choose to be a woman.  You just are.  However, you did choose not to be a parent.  

[rck]

I think the fact that Jazz is so feminine probably did help her and her parents realize earlier that she was transgender. Not all transgender women are so into presenting feminine, just like not all cisgender women like wearing dresses or jewelry.

 

I personally don't have a strong feeling about my own gender so it's hard for me to really understand what it's like for people who do, but hearing others' experiences makes me think that for most people there's something about gender that is innate, a feeling that this is just who you are.

[Zuleikha]

My question has to do with the definition of being a girl/woman. I guess we can reduce it to the absurd and say that no one really knows what being a woman is, but I wonder if it doesn't just come down to, wanting to have long hair and sparkly dresses.

It's not absurd. In general, assigning sex on the basis of external presentation of gender works pretty well for people. But sometimes it doesn't. Transgender is one specific instance of that, but not the only one. There are people with vulvas who don't have uteruses, who don't have vaginas (or who have multiple vaginas), who have undescended testes, who have XY chromosomes, and so on. Read the literature on the history of gender assignment surgeries and intersex conditions, and you'll quickly find out how difficult it's been for researchers to create an objective, scientific definition of woman and man. 

 

 It's possible that in the future, we'll learn of actual physical differences that make the transgender experience fall under the general umbrella of intersex experiences. But maybe we won't. IMHO, what matters is that gender dysphoria causes people real distress and to date, the best way to alleviate the distress is to accept people's choice about who they are. 

 

Also, what are you expecting Jazz to be able to say? I couldn't articulate what it means to me to be a woman in a coherent way either. It's not just about my body because I don't feel neutral about womanhood. I don't want to have a medical condition that would cause me to have the external genitalia and presentation of a man despite the many social advantages I would gain. My gender identity just is. Jazz's just is. Sometimes there aren't easy explanations.

[galax-arena]

It sounds like the motivation was to wear girls' clothing and play with girls' toys, and not any overwhelming desire to be a woman.

In general, I do think we do have to be careful to not distill gender identity down to gender essentialist thinking, i.e. boys are supposed to be like this and girls are supposed to be like that. As a kid, I hit a few ticky boxes on the stereotype list. I didn't like pink, I didn't like Barbies, I didn't like princesses. I preferred Transformers and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. But not once did I think that I was a boy, or that not liking the color pink made me any less of a girl. 

 

The thing with Jazz, though, is that she was very young when she first expressed gender dysphoria, so she might not have had the language/articulation necessary to explain that her gender identity went beyond this sort of superficial "pink versus blue" stuff. That was just her way of expressing it at the time. I think Jazz was relatively fortunate that she was into a lot of stereotypically "girly girl" stuff because IMO people definitely do take transgender people more seriously when they conform to the norms for their true gender (as opposed to their assigned gender) and easily "pass." There are plenty of transgender women out there who aren't outwardly feminine, and have no interest in being such, and they get a lot of side-eye and skepticism. "You say you're a woman, so why do you still dress like a man??" Stuff like that.

 

It reminds me of all the controversy over Angelina and Brad's daughter Shiloh, who has been papped in public wearing suits and essentially taking more after her brothers than her sisters, and had a phase where she insisted on being called John (after a character in Peter Pan). This resulted in a lot of people (who didn't know her personally) insisting that Shiloh was trans, and that in fact it was transphobic to even call her Shiloh and that we should call her John instead. And the whole thing just seemed so gender essentialist to me. It's like, okay, so Shiloh's really a boy because she prefers suits to dresses?

 

And I'm not discounting the possibility that Shiloh is trans, but since none of us actually know her, I think we should defer to her parents, who continue to call her Shiloh and refer to her with female pronouns. I know that parents aren't always the best arbiters of their children's gender or sexual identity - see: Leelah Alcorn's parents - but in the absence of any additional information, I'm comfortable thinking that Brangelina know better than I do about their child.

Edited August 6, 2015 by galax-arena

[possibilities]

I think if you are a person who identifies with the gender other people told you you were at birth, but you do not conform to the stereotypical extremes for that gender, you will have lots of questions about what those assignments mean and what they should mean, and that's valid. Speaking as a cisgender female, also a lesbian, and also someone who finds both extremes of the gender binary stereotype morbidly aversive, I understand the impulse to question the nature and validity of prevailing gender norms, and to be hostile to declarations that one's gender is defined by things like favorite color, style of dress, or whether you cook, sew, fix cars, or drive a truck.

 

I personally knit, cook, and sometimes wear dresses. On the other hand, I am disgusted by high heels and make up (I am also totally unshaven, do not even own a bra, and wear hiking boots even with any possible skirts), love DIY and power tools, and always thought blocks were more fun than dolls.

 

But I think the important thing to focus on is not the nailing down or defending of the definitions, but rather that policing and enforcing how people express their gender identity and whether their behaviors conform to one or another end of this artificial and entirely socially manufactured spectrum, is really a bizarre and unhealthy pursuit in the first place. If you question the validity of boxing people into the pink dresses vs blue truck niches, why not question the need to police their genitals and self-definition also?

 

Why on Earth do we make such a big deal about defining this in the first place? I mean, seriously and I am absolutely not kidding: Why does "society" care whether ANY individual is or is not a male or a female?

 

What matters, in my not at all trying to be controversial but feeling like this is somehow inevitably going to be considered provocative by someone opinion, is not who is or isn't any particular gender, or how they got to that conclusion, but how they behave towards others, and whether they are happy and healthy and doing no one else any harm and being a good citizen.

 

The general panic over how we define these terms, and who gets to decide, and whether it's anyone else's business, to me is all about the way we enforce privilege or assign meaning to our own abstract identity-markers, and is soooo silly and weird and terrifyingly control-freakish, that I am genuinely at a loss as to why and how it's been so able to be sustained over so many centuries and even now is still so loaded for so many people.

 

Again, I acknowledge that overwhelmingly it is a big deal to people, one way or another. I just don't get why it's so important that we maintain a strict order of Males, Females, and Rare Exceptions (intersex people) in the first place, or why we care about which side any particular person is on.

 

So for me, the persistent concern about whether someone is or isn't one or the other, how they got to that conclusion, and whether others should be expected to approve and embrace that definition are just... mindblowing.

 

I think the important thing is to pay attention to each person and what they need in order to function in life and be at peace with themselves. For some, clearly the answer is medical (medication, surgery, etc). For others, no medicine is needed other than to be allowed to dress or act however, without being harassed. And when getting to know anyone, the only things you need to know are the things that are relevant to your particular interactions with that person. The fear that you might like someone or be attracted to them and not know what their DNA, genitals, hormone levels are like, or even what gender label they carry around, is kind of weird, isn't it? And it's all about you and your own issues with gender and sexuality, not them and theirs, isn't it? That's why it's discrimination and not important or "your right to know."

 

The more I hear transgender people talk about their lives, the more obvious it is to me that they are the experts on who they are and what they need, and that the rest of us should stay out of it and stop making such a big deal about it being our business. It's actually the same thing as has always been true for me as a lesbian, i.e. that other people have been nursing theories about what we are and why, and whether and how much and in what ways we should be accepted or tolerated or allowed to participate in the world. Even the debate over whether we choose or are born this way to me is irrelevant and insulting, because it implies that we need to explain or justify our existence and that there's something wrong that needs explaining. We are who we are. We're not hurting anyone by being that way.

There's nothing to worry about.

 

I think the same thing applies to transgender people, and that the more anyone is exposed to the reality of trans people's lives, the less any of this other stuff becomes an issue. I really encourage anyone having trouble with it, to just keep listening to more and more stories from more and more people. No one person represents an entire community, but the more stories you are exposed to, and the more people you know, the more it just becomes part of life and not a big deal that merits so much worry and general consternation.

 

I also think that's why "being out" is such a great service, as well as often being a necessity for psychological and physical self-preservation. Living in secret is terrifying and stressful. It's inherently damaging. So when I hear people worrying about Jazz being public, I get it because fame has its problems. But being in the closet is also detrimental, and that can't be ignored either.

[bref]

Beautifully said, possibilities! 

 

This especially: 

 

Why on Earth do we make such a big deal about defining this in the first place? I mean, seriously and I am absolutely not kidding: Why does "society" care whether ANY individual is or is not a male or a female?

 

The fact that this (i.e. the existence of trans people) drives people to fury and in some cases, murderous rage, is so beyond me. Live and let live. Do unto others. Mind your own business. Is that so hard?

[CousinAmy]

 

 

Again, I acknowledge that overwhelmingly it is a big deal to people, one way or another. I just don't get why it's so important that we maintain a strict order of Males, Females, and Rare Exceptions (intersex people) in the first place, or why we care about which side any particular person is on.

 

So for me, the persistent concern about whether someone is or isn't one or the other, how they got to that conclusion, and whether others should be expected to approve and embrace that definition are just... mindblowing.

 

I think the important thing is to pay attention to each person and what they need in order to function in life and be at peace with themselves. For some, clearly the answer is medical (medication, surgery, etc). For others, no medicine is needed other than to be allowed to dress or act however, without being harassed. And when getting to know anyone, the only things you need to know are the things that are relevant to your particular interactions with that person. The fear that you might like someone or be attracted to them and not know what their DNA, genitals, hormone levels are like, or even what gender label they carry around, is kind of weird, isn't it? And it's all about you and your own issues with gender and sexuality, not them and theirs, isn't it? That's why it's discrimination and not important or "your right to know."

 

The more I hear transgender people talk about their lives, the more obvious it is to me that they are the experts on who they are and what they need, and that the rest of us should stay out of it and stop making such a big deal about it being our business. It's actually the same thing as has always been true for me as a lesbian, i.e. that other people have been nursing theories about what we are and why, and whether and how much and in what ways we should be accepted or tolerated or allowed to participate in the world. Even the debate over whether we choose or are born this way to me is irrelevant and insulting, because it implies that we need to explain or justify our existence and that there's something wrong that needs explaining. We are who we are. We're not hurting anyone by being that way.

There's nothing to worry about.

 

Perhaps because I am a woman (I refuse to label myself with the "c" word) I really am interested in the Male of the species. And so, I like that there is a distinction. If you don't feel that way, that's fine, but to dismiss the interaction of male and female as not important is ignoring a very significant percentage of the population. 

And this most definitely is our business, because it's on a television show, and all of these issues (including when to have surgery, taking hormones, etc.) are being discussed on television. Why can't we discuss it on a television-related forum? 

[momofsquid]

I really appreciate the idea of gender identity as a continuum rather than black and white. I'm a completely heterosexual cis female. It has never occurred to me to have any doubts, yet I've always said that if reincarnation is real, then this is my first time around as a female. I can't explain specifically without sounding like a complete misogynist (I just tried and had to delete it because I offended myself). I just seem to understand stereotypical male thinking better than stereotypical female. So I'd put myself clearly on the female side of the continuum but sliding a teeny bit toward the middle. And that works out fine because I married a completely heterosexual cis male who has some feminine characteristics. Consequently we reverse traditional roles in some situations and it works out fine for us, though my mother-in-law clearly disapproves.

 

(By the way, I had wondered aloud where the term "cis" originated and my daughter advised me it's a scientific term having something to do with molecular structure. In chemistry it is the opposite of trans. I apologize if everyone else either knows this or has googled by now.)

[CarolMK]

I just wanted to thank everybody here who have helped to educate me about transgender people. I have really learned a lot, both from all the people here and from Jazz and her show. It seems like it has taken quite awhile to finally see a television show about it but it's a very good thing. So many people are just not aware and ill-informed of the issues that they face so it's very important that this show is being aired. Kudos to Jazz and her family for being brave enough to agree to do this television show, like many other have said, TLC does not have a good track record when it comes to minors. 

[blubld43]

especially seeing that transgender people can also be gay). 

 

So here's a question:  Caitlyn Jenner has said she is still attracted to women; is she now gay as well as transgender?

[Human]

So here's a question:  Caitlyn Jenner has said she is still attracted to women; is she now gay as well as transgender?

In most cases, yes, Caitlyn would be described as a lesbian.  To the outside, based on how she describes her sexuality, she's gay.  But there's a bit of self-identification that shouldn't be ignored either.  I think that Cait may be uncomfortable describing herself as a lesbian right now.  She's also indicated a near lack of sexual attraction with the asexual description in the Sawyer interview.

 

So, to sum up.  She's gay if she's sexually attracted to women, but beyond some light flirt joking with Candis Cayne, she's shied away from the lesbian label and has stated on at least one occasion that she's currently asexual.  

[whoknowswho]

In most cases, yes, Caitlyn would be described as a lesbian.  To the outside, based on how she describes her sexuality, she's gay.  But there's a bit of self-identification that shouldn't be ignored either.  I think that Cait may be uncomfortable describing herself as a lesbian right now.  She's also indicated a near lack of sexual attraction with the asexual description in the Sawyer interview.

 

So, to sum up.  She's gay if she's sexually attracted to women, but beyond some light flirt joking with Candis Cayne, she's shied away from the lesbian label and has stated on at least one occasion that she's currently asexual.  

I have a farming life which is physically demanding, and at 52 and quite post menopausal-- if I never had to have sex again, it would be fine with me! I'm too frigging tired.   :) 

Perhaps a transperson at 65 may feel the same way? Honestly, I have no idea-- but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

[blubld43]

Thanks for the explanations.  Yes, I remember her saying she's asexual, and could well be true in light of all the hormones combined with her age.

[Dorne2.0]

I can tell you that this is where many, many, people feel very confused and honestly don't understand.

 

Okay, so a person with female gender is born into a male body. They want to live their life entirely as a girl/woman. They are very upset at the thought of going through male puberty, to the point where they receive drugs to block puberty and then estrogen to encourage the body to look as female as possible.

 

But if this person is truly a woman, why would they want to keep a penis??

 

It's a serious question. I'm not talking about someone who can't get surgery due to fear, or cost, or any other reason out of their control.

 

I'm talking about someone who insists they are female in every way but is content to have male genitalia and does not WANT to have it removed and replaced with a vagina. It seems like having that organ in place would be very upsetting to someone who thinks of themselves as a woman. Wouldn't it? I am a woman myself, and yes, that would be very upsetting to me.

 

It's a serious question and I can tell you, this is the part that a lot of folks do NOT understand. You can kick me off the boards again if you want, but I'd appreciate it (and so would many others) if someone would answer this one.

 

I'm a cisgender woman so I may not be the best one to answer it. I have a friend who is a transwoman. Since I've known her, her early teens, she identifies with being a woman. A woman born in the wrong body. Surgery can change your outer looks, but she has always been a woman inside, so, in a way, surgery doesn't matter to some trans people, because they were born in the wrong body with the "soul" of another gender and surgery is a big step to make. As I understand until recently it involved giving up orgasms. These days they have improved the procedures so much, as I understand, the people who go to surgery can have orgasms after the operation, but still, it is a surgery, no surgery is without risks. Some people think hormone treatment and top surgery are enough, their genitals are not as important. In MTF surgery especially, the appearance of the genital thereafter is not always -uhh- perfect. 

 

Look at this guy's video on youtube, he's a transman explaining why he chose not to go do bottom surgery:

Edited August 29, 2015 by Dorne2.0

[Dorne2.0]

I agree that it can be quite confusing and I must admit that I'm not the most eloquent writers so my posts can make for poor explanations.  The language does matter a great deal because saying something in different ways can change the intent. The way you have worded this - "many boys and men won't want to date a woman who still has a male appendage" - divorces the comment from being  a phobic one.  It focuses more on individual attractions that people might have.  We all feel different things, some people are attracted to large breasts, some to hair color, others to height, a lot of people have requirements about what genitals should look like (there are lots of ways that vulvas are formed! plus all the gazillion grooming habits), and more.  It's not something that can really be faulted or judged.

 

Warning: TMI ahead. I want to thank you for saying this because the question "am I transphobic?" has always haunted me, because I'm bisexual and have only been with cisgender people, because I'm very --uhh-- genital orientated, to the point my husband has laser hair removal around on his crotch, and I despite being very "oral" I have decided not to go down on people simply by seeing their genital area and not finding it good-looking enough. I have a long term friend who is a transwoman and because of her particularly I have been ashamed about this. So when I look ant Candis, if her v looks as good as her, I could date her, she's beautiful. I have a lot of body issues (borderline anorexia, obsession with thinness), so I guess I project that expectation on others. Please don't judge me, I'm a Hollywood brainwashed millennial with OCD and obsession with looks (a lookist I guess, but only in regards to my sex/romantic life), but at least I'm not a transphobe. I've always considered my friend a woman while my sister considers her gay, refers to her as a "him", and called me a slut when I came out as bisexual.

 

I've only watched the first episode but when those boys called Jazz the "T" slur I wanted to cry. She's such a beautiful girl, I hope this show helps enlighten people on the subject. 

Edited August 29, 2015 by Dorne2.0

[TwirlyGirly]

Here's a video made by Hank Green (brother of John Green, author of "The Fault in Our Stars" and other books), explaining the difference between sex, gender, and orientation/attraction:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI

 

Hope this helps!

 

TwirlyGirly

[Dorne2.0]

If you think alleviating the symptoms of gender dysphoria is never a matter of life and death, just listen to how distressed Jazz sounds when she discusses the possibility of experiencing male puberty.  Read the last note of Leelah Alcorn.  Read about the alarmingly high rate of suicide among transgender youth.  

 

Thank you for the Leelah Alcorn mention. I remember her story and her depression for not being allowed to take the hormones and for having to go through male puberty. That's what really should settle the matter of allowing these children to take hormones because they might become suicidal otherwise. 

[Dorne2.0]

 I know many young people could say "I don't want biological children ever" and then change their mind once they hit 30 years old. I never wanted kids until my late 20's then I really wanted kids! 

 

 I'm cisgender, but I never wanted kids, the mere idea of pregnancy repulses me. I'm an anti-natalist and so is my husband. He has had a vasectomy, he's past 30 and I'm approaching, still hate children. We enjoy our childfree life. In the case of these kids, I think the fear and possible suicidal depression over going through puberty as the wrong gender is worse (see Leelah Acorn), so they can get an egg or sperm from a relative or adopt. 

[okerry]

*****Why on Earth do we make such a big deal about defining this in the first place? I mean, seriously and I am absolutely not kidding: Why does "society" care whether ANY individual is or is not a male or a female?

 

Because Sex. Seriously, that's why. You are quite right that someone's gender doesn't matter for higher functions like getting an education, getting a job, making a friend, etc. - but every one of us also operates at a far more basic/primitive level, which is nothing to be ashamed of. It's part of being human.

But at that level, yes, sex becomes a factor. We want to know who and what we're dealing with. It can be dangerous not to know who is approaching you, or who you are approaching. Or if not dangerous, a waste of time to spend energy approaching someone that you won't be interested in or who won't be interested in you.

Human beings especially do not like deliberate deception in any form. Again - we want to know who and what we're dealing with because it can be dangerous to get too close to the wrong tribe, the wrong individual, etc. This is why anything that looks like deception is met with suspicion, anger, and sometimes aggression. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying there is a reason for it.

If you are willing to understand the concepts of gender from the most basic level of the human brain, then yes, it DOES matter. And I don't mind that at all. As I said, it's just part of being human.

[okerry]

You can ban me if you must, but please consider: Being alarmed, and concerned, over the very serious treatments that are being administered to children isn't "hate." It isn't "transphobia." It's just saying, "Maybe parents and providers ought to slow down and think about this."

Even Johns Hopkins, the forerunner of gender corrections surgery, no longer performs them because the outcomes were not worth the risk and the extreme disruption to an otherwise normal body. If open discussion and honest questions are always shut down and shut off, how is anyone going to have the understanding everybody says they want?

[bref]

In a lot of cases it seems there is a very fine line between "i'm alarmed and concerned (about someone else's very personal decision)" and "trans people are pathetic mentally ill freaks". Because transphobia is a very real thing, with very real consequences, I do not mind the mods here asking that we be extra sensitive in the language we use. While you may feel you are having an objective discussion about science or ethics or whatever, there are real people with real feelings behind those discussions, some of whom may be reading here, and I would not want them to feel like they are some kind of medical oddities for us to bloodlessly speculate about. 

[ClareWalks]

Guess not.

Edited June 3, 2016 by ClareWalks

[radishcake]

OK, I'm linking to a variety of medical links here and I'm going to ask you guys to google this stuff yourself. If you have resourced links you can add them here. This forum is NOT for discussing your opinion on transgender issues. It's about a TV show and the content presented on the TV show. As the SHOW deals with this stuff you can talk about it in the EPISODE threads but for now, feel free to educate yourself but no more posts about this. It's invasive and the actual people dealing with their private medical lives don't need a "hey look at this freak" mentality played out here in the comments. 

Discussing this stuff outside the actual content of the show (which can I remind everyone hasn't aired yet?) is going to get dicey and I don't want to have to hide posts like crazy. You have been duly notified. PM me with any questions.

Great interview on NPR

American Psychological Association

National LGBT Health Education Center

[ClareWalks]

Thank you for the links. I didn't mean to be disrespectful and I consider myself an ally. The thread says this is the place for questions, and my question was something that is brought up in the previews for this season of the show. My mistake.

[jacksgirl]

Posted this in the epi thread, but this may be better. Long time teacher here- and like ClareWalks consider myself an ally (albeit pretty uneducated and although I am a blue state girl, I worked in the reddest of red states) about transgender people. Jazz co-wrote a book about her life. I teach PreK and would not want that book in my class, partly due to parent backlash, but also due to it being such a complex issue and 4 and 5 year olds are not abstract thinkers. Interested in thoughts of those more attuned to this issue. Human, Mahariness, are you around?

[possibilities]

I haven't read the book. What about it did you think was over the heads of your students?

[TwirlyGirly]

42 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

<snip> Jazz co-wrote a book about her life. I teach PreK and would not want that book in my class, partly due to parent backlash, but also due to it being such a complex issue and 4 and 5 year olds are not abstract thinkers. <snip>

I'm neither of the posters you referenced, but I'm going to take a stab at your question/opinion.

First, I have NOT read Jazz's book, but it is listed as written for children ages 4-8.

Second, I am not transgender. However, both my daughter and I are short-statured and disabled; we use manual wheelchairs for mobility.

A couple of days ago, we went to a local Renaissance Faire. As we were wandering around, a woman and her little boy walked past us headed in the opposite direction. He was about 4 or 5 years old. He saw us, and pointed directly AT us, and began laughing hysterically. The woman kept walking and said nothing.

This is not an unusual occurrence. I've had small children run up behind me and shove my wheelchair - hard. I've had kids poke me, ask me inappropriate questions, and call me names. The majority of the time the adult(s) with them have either totally ignored the child's behavior or pulled the child away (without apologizing to me or talking to the child).

Now, I realize these situations are minor compared to what Jazz and other children who are transgender endure. I bring it up only to point out parents and teachers need to do much more insofar as teaching children about differences - whether those differences are based on race, religion, physical appearance, disabilities, gender identity, etc., and it needs to start when they're young.

I think as adults we may tend to "overthink" what type of explanations are necessary to teach children the concept of acceptance of other's differences - especially in terms of specific differences, such as sexual orientation or gender dysphoria. For example, you don't have to discuss the mechanics of sex to teach children about same-sex sexual orientation. When my daughter was four years old, we were friends with a gay couple. I simply told her "Most of the time, little girls grow up and fall in love and marry boys. And most of the time, little boys grow up and fall in love and marry girls. But some little girls grow up and fall in love and marry other girls, and some little boys grow up and fall in love and marry other boys - and that's okay." No discussion of sex at all.

I suspect, (although as I have already stated, I haven't read Jazz's book), that it takes a similar, simplistic approach in explaining gender dysphoria. If I were a teacher, I wouldn't assume the topic of the book isn't approached in an age-appropriate manner without reading it first. I'm fairly sure whatever explanation/description it uses is much more simplistic than perhaps what you are imagining, and doesn't require a lot of "abstract thinking."

Edited June 11, 2016 by TwirlyGirly

[jacksgirl]

Thanks Twirlygirl for the insight.  And Possibilities, I have not read the book either,  but am certain my public school system would not want the controversy. We do talk about families with four and five year olds and I have had same sex couples as parents.  We just say your family is who loves you,  some families are big, some are small, some kids gave two moms some kids have grandparents, while others do not. Maybe I am overthinking it.

[possibilities]

I would not want to have an opinion about a book I haven't read myself (or at least read a detailed review). Those kinds of opinions usually end badly.

I just went online and requested the book from my public library's inter-library loan service. There appear to be quite a few copies in the Massachusetts public library system.

I tend to think that Jazz's family, having raised young children, have a pretty good idea of what that age can handle, and that the publisher (which is "Dial Books for Young Readers, an imprint of Penguin Group"-- I just looked it up) are also somewhat aware of the developmental level and cognitive abilities of their target age group. Also, any school or teacher who wants to read it in their class, is surely aware of what they are doing-- it's not going to get past the various gatekeepers if it's absurdly inappropriate for the age group. I just think, generally, people don't do projects like this lightly. Everyone knows you can't just wantonly throw material at kids without vetting it first.

I would guess the book is like "Heather has Two Mommies," which is a picture book for very young kids, about a girl with two moms. You can write a book for any age group, I think. You just have to think about what the character's life is like. So Jazz as a very young child, and what her story would be, and other people reacting to it. Nothing could be weirder or more abstract or more scary than Where The Wild Things Are, or  than Goldilocks and The Three Bears, Little Red Riding Hood, and other common books about talking animals, or more serious than some of the Ezra Jack Keats stories, like "Louie" or the one where the kid is upset about having a new sibling. Kids live in a complicated world. I think the earlier you expose them to the full spectrum of reality, the more able they are to take it in stride. And it especially helps the kids who are already dealing with stuff, and talking about it in the open (along with every other thing you talk about) makes them safer and more at ease. Secreting it away makes something scarier and harder to understand.

Maybe they tell the story of Jazz wanting to dance with the other girls, or getting her first "girl's bathing suit," or telling her grandparents that she's a girl when they accidentally call her a boy. Stuff like that in an everyday matter of fact tone is just a day in the life of a kid, and kind of relatable for kids in general, I'd think.

When I was a very little kid, my parents read me a book called "The Bear That Wasn't" -- it's all about a bear who gets told over and over again that he's a silly man who needs a shave and wears a fur coat. All kinds of people try to convince him he's not a bear -- and finally he believes them, but he's miserable. And all the people who were trying to turn him into a man are never really his friends, either. He's kind of lost. But eventually all those people leave him alone, and winter comes, and the Bear's true nature pushes back so strongly that he can't deny it anymore, so he goes back to being a bear and he's happy. I begged my parents to read that story to me over and over and over again, until I was old enough to read it over and over again on my own. It was one of my favorite things in the world. I'm cis, but I think stories about identity are relatable for a lot of kids.

Edited June 12, 2016 by possibilities

[radishcake]

Wow @possibilities what an incredible book that sounds like. Certainly a good start to conversation about being comfortable in your own skin, literally. @jacksgirl My mom was a public school teacher and I was a preschool teacher and I understand what you mean about the school not wanting controversy. I'm sad that it's a controversy to exposed kids to all kinds of differences no matter what they are.

@twirlygirly It's so crappy that tools for living your life with independence and mobility are so disregarded and the people are so ignorant.

[possibilities]

I got the book from the library. I would say it's very age-appropriate. It's in the exact style of every other "picture book with a tiny bit of story added". I can't even quote it without feeling like I'm telling you everything. It's not in the preachy tone of explaining something. It's in the style of Jazz remembering things.

So, when she was little, her parents would say things like "you're a good boy!" and she'd say "No, I'm a good girl!!" It talks about who her friends are, and her favorite colors, and who's in her family. It lists all the things she likes to do, and how people would try to tell her she was weird or stop her from doing some of them, and how she felt when that would happen. And then one day her parents take her to a doctor, who asks her a lot of questions, and then her parents stop trying to pretend she's a boy, they let her be who she is, and she's happy. Even though sometimes people get mad or confused or don't like her or try to make rules that don't make sense to her (like when for a while the school was telling her to use the boy's bathroom), she still knows it's important to be yourself and that it's okay to be different.

I think if you envision this as just one more book that gets read at storytime, and not as some big deal, it's right along the lines of every book out there that talks about kids who have a problem and then solve it by the end of the story. It's something all kids can probably relate to, in the sense that they just want to play with their friends and do the things they think are fun, and be accepted.

It's only a problem if you don't want kids to be accepting.

[jacksgirl]

Possibilities,  Will check to see if our city-county library has it. Went on Amazon to look up "The Bear Who Wasn't". I have a gift card and guess what I'm getting? Plus a few books from Mo Willems.

[Muffyn]

Given the discussions regarding the colon vaginoplasty and the penile inversion vaginoplasty in the episode, I am adding this link to a website that accurately details the difference.  This includes animated drawings of the procedures:  Vaginoplasty.  This may help answer some of the questions that have been raised in the episode threads.  It does concern me when people talk about "open wounds" or get into details of care for post-surgical transgender persons if they are relying solely on information found on the internet.  As with most things, there is a lot of misinformation.  I am cisgender, but I am also a speaker for an LGBTQ speakers bureau and often, with transgender and non-binary colleagues, address issues regarding transitioning.  Also, I have been intimate with several transgender and non-binary persons and have helped friends when they were healing from surgery. 

This forum is about the show, so I don't feel it is appropriate to go into detail about the surgeries here.  If anyone wants to PM me, please do.  If your questions are respectful and inquisitive, I will answer. 

[TwirlyGirly]

6 hours ago, Muffyn said:

Given the discussions regarding the colon vaginoplasty and the penile inversion vaginoplasty in the episode, I am adding this link to a website that accurately details the difference.  This includes animated drawings of the procedures:  Vaginoplasty.  This may help answer some of the questions that have been raised in the episode threads.  <snip>

I appreciate you posting this. I consider myself perhaps more aware than average folks regarding LGBTQ issues, but there was a lot presented at the link I didn't know. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and helping to educate the rest of us!

Am I correct in assuming "QoL" as mentioned in the following:

"QoL  was only reported in one study" is "Quality of Life"?

Edited July 11, 2017 by TwirlyGirly1

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Yes, QoL is Quality of Life. 

[TwirlyGirly]

Thanks to my daughter (who isn't trans, but is double-majoring in psychology and global heath, so she's aware of a lot of resources I'm not familiar with), I've just been told there is a book similar to the famous "Our Bodies, Ourselves" written for transgender folks (and others who may be interested) entitled "Trans Bodies, Trans Selves: A Resource for the Transgender Community".

Here are a couple of links if you're interested in purchasing (if it's not available at or through your local library):

https://www.amazon.com/Trans-Bodies-Selves-Transgender-Community/dp/0199325359/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499794503&sr=1-1&keywords=trans+bodies+trans+selves

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=&tn=Trans+Bodies%2C+Trans+Selves%3A+A+Resource+for+the+Transgender+Community&kn=&isbn=

Edited July 11, 2017 by TwirlyGirly1

[Granny58]

On 7/30/2015 at 11:34 PM, CousinAmy said:

I think transphobic means people who have a fear ("phobic") or hatred of a person because they are transgender. I don't think dismissing someone as a potential partner is transphobic in any way, as long as no hate or cruelty is expressed, why should we judge someone's personal choices? 

Agreed.  Also, let's not underestimate that having biological children is a powerful (maybe the most powerful) biological pull there is.   If somebody doesn't want to knowingly become involved with an infertile person, I think that is very understandable.  And I say this as a person who has had fertility struggles.   It's one of the reasons men choose young women as partners (yes, yes, there's always the tiny percentage who don't)....old women can't have babies.  Whether they understand this directly or not, it is what it is.   

[Muffyn]

Some questions/comments came up regarding the usage of "queer" within LGBTQQIAA2+.  Here is the GLAAD reference guide that addresses this language.

Queer is used in multiple ways.  Sometimes it is used as a term to encompass the entire LGBT community.  One reason for the switch from gay community to queer community was to not limit the idea to gay men only. 

Individuals may chose to identify as queer.  This is more common among younger persons with queer being chosen because it does not limit sexual attraction to fitting into the gender binary (that is, someone might be attracted to men or women and non-binary persons).  The term is not fully accepted by all persons within the community since it is a slur that is being repurposed/reclaimed.  I personally identify as queer from a sexuality perspective.

There is also the idea of being genderqueer; that is another term that is sometimes used by non-binary persons. 

I included the entire listing of letters that have at times been used - the alphabet soup of the queer community. For those wondering these are: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, 2 spirit, + encompasses anything not included that could be (more likely seen with a shorter version of the alphabet).  

The more you know -----------------*

[Muffyn]

Why transgender and not transgendered?  Transgender as an adjective exists in one form.  Transgendered, through the addition of the -ed ending, implies a verb (not implies, not makes specific) or makes it seem like transgender is something that happens to a person.  As a friend likes to say, she is a transgender Italian American, not a transgendered Italianed American.  Being transgender is not something that happened to her; it is something she is.  Being Italian is not something that happened to her; it's something she is. 

[SongbirdHollow]

I hesitate to post this question because I'm afraid of inadvertently offending someone. So big apologies in advance if I do so - I am here for education so please do so! (gently!)

Regarding bottom surgery for MTF, why is is so important to make a vagina?  If you have to resort to colon vaginoplasty, why not leave the colon where it is and have anal sex? In the case of a micropenis like Jazz's, use it to make an awesome vulva and clitoris and that should provide some great orgasms for her. The anal sex covers the penetration part. Everything would look natural since the vagina is internal anyway. I think a lot of men would be more than OK with that in a partner they love. You could probably even have prostate orgasms if everything is undisturbed there as well. 

I mean, I understand that it's psychological for a woman to want a vagina if at all possible, but in a suppressed patient this seems like a viable option to me, and less invasive surgery. Perhaps it's more important than I realize as a cis woman. If that is so, of course I accept that.