Gracepoint Vs. Broadchurch

[Potter]

If it's not Joe, it has to be someone related to Ellie. They can't take out the "how could you not know" scene.

I wonder if it will still be Joe, but the circumstances of the murder will be different. IE - he's not a pedophile in this one. That would fit with the "different ending" announcements.

[Maelstrom]

If it's not Joe, it has to be someone related to Ellie. They can't take out the "how could you not know" scene.

I wonder if it will still be Joe, but the circumstances of the murder will be different. IE - he's not a pedophile in this one. That would fit with the "different ending" announcements.

That's what I've been thinking too - same killer, different circumstances. Though I've also wondered if they'll make Tom the murderer this time, with Joe covering for him. *shrugs*

[Hero]

I still think it's Joe, too. Though I would love it if they're misleading us and have something else up their sleeve.

I was one of the few who didn't dislike Gunn as Ellie at first but now she's bugging me. She has an intense acting style in this role anyway, and paired with her extreme thinness here, she just doesn't feel like 'everywoman' at all to me now.

And Michael Pena... I don't understand that casting choice at all. Unattractive, uninteresting, flat affect. How can you play a grieving father and come across as if you're a robot?

Tennant was killing it with the heart attack faces, though.

I think Michael Peña is pretty cute, but I agree that he is a little stiff. There is practically no emotion coming out of him except for that dead eye stare.

[morgankobi]

I could see them switching to Tom. I didn't believe a word he said in the hospital and am really surprised that Carver did. Tom, like Michael Pena, doesn't play grieving well at all.

 

I think the biggest hint will be Trailer Lady's story. If it's still her husband, then I think it's Joe. But if the story somehow is now about one of her kids murdering the family, then I say Tom. 

[GreyBunny]

That's what I've been thinking too - same killer, different circumstances. Though I've also wondered if they'll make Tom the murderer this time, with Joe covering for him. *shrugs*

 

I think it would be unsatisfying if they did this.  "How could you not know?"  Easy.  She never bothered to have her child sit down for a thorough forensic interview (Ellie is such a crappy cop she probably doesn't even know what one is) and her conversations with him seem to be limited to repetitions of, "Are you okay?"  She probably also never thought to install a net nanny on her computer or get cell phone monitoring software for Tom's phone, or pay much attention to him at all.  They never bothered to check his electronics after his best friend was found dead, that should have been one of the very first things they did.   

 

Ellie is so incompetent as a cop and a parent that she could stare at Tom smashing his computer and cell phone while yelling, "I DID IT, I KILLED DANNY!" and she still wouldn't have a clue.

If Tom did it, Joe would have have to have helped since Tom is too small to get the body from the cabin down to the beach miles away by himself.

 

The Hollywood Reporter says 

 

There will be a different killer in Gracepoint...

 

I don't know if the HR is making an assumption based on producers' hints or if they've seen the whole series before writing the review and know for sure.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/gracepoint-tv-review-737815

Edited November 22, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Ellaria]

That's what I've been thinking too - same killer, different circumstances. Though I've also wondered if they'll make Tom the murderer this time, with Joe covering for him. *shrugs*

 

I could see the show going this route. Or maybe Joe kills him accidentally. I wonder if network execs would consider the pedophile angle a bit too rough.

 

I may be confused about a scene in Broadchurch. When Susan brings Danny's skateboard to the house, weren't Joe and Ellie home? In Gracepoint, only Joe was.

[Raingirlkm]

In Broadchurch Susan gave the skateboard to Tom when he was at her trailer and when he got home with it both parents were there. Gracepoint Susan brought the skateboard to the Miller's home and Tom answered the door.

[Ellaria]

In Broadchurch Susan gave the skateboard to Tom when he was at her trailer and when he got home with it both parents were there. Gracepoint Susan brought the skateboard to the Miller's home and Tom answered the door.

 

Thanks. These scenes play out quite differently. I wonder why. 

 

In Gracepoint, Joe immediately tells Tom to drop the skateboard...just like Ellie did in the Broadchurch scene. If he is still the killer, would he be so concerned about the contamination of this key piece of evidence?

[alias1]

I didn't think Joe told Tom to drop the skateboard because he didn't want the evidence to be contaminated.  I thought he looked shocked that the skateboard had resurfaced, and telling Tom to drop it was his first reaction.   But that would indicate that he is still the killer, which they keep insisting is not the case.  Tom didn't handle the skateboard in any kind of suspicious manner so it still looks to me like he doesn't know anything about the actual killing.  But then he has acted like a robot through the entire series so It's hard to tell what he's feeling.

[MaryPatShelby]

The arcade scene was one of my very favorites in Broadchurch, and a big part of that was the music.  I didn't like the bowling scene quite as much, but it still moved me. First episode I've liked Beth.

[HermitsUnited]

Just watched the promo clips Fox has put up for episode 9 and I honestly can't believe now that it's anyone other than Joe Miller. I thought they might switch it to Owen - because he's family to Ellie - but Carver still gives his backstory to the journalists so I really don't see it being him. Not to mention the whole beanie thing with Joe and Vince both sporting black ones.

 

The Susan/Vince story also seems to be the same (based on the clips) so I don't think it's Vince either. There's also a bit of a mention of the "how could you not know" line.

 

Which leaves Paul, I guess. But honestly can't see the American adaption going for the priest if the British version didn't. Plus the guy has just been obviously creepy the WHOLE time. Broadchurch was successful because it was subtle. There was a whole swathe of more obvious suspects before you began to suspect Joe.

 

I suppose it could still be Tom. But really I'm guessing the whole "different ending" means it won't simply be Carver stalking a phone signal through the town, as opposed to "different killer". Who knows...maybe Carver gets shot in this series? That would certainly be different.... :(

[benteen]

I didn't think Carver telling the truth about Rosemont was as emotionally effective as the original Broadchurch scene.

[alias1]

I didn't think Carver telling the truth about Rosemont was as emotionally effective as the original Broadchurch scene.

So true!  But then nothing in Gracepoint is as effective as it was in Broadchurch. 

 

I'm also starting to feel there was false advertising about a different ending just to rope us in and watch this subpar remake.

[HermitsUnited]

So true!  But then nothing in Gracepoint is as effective as it was in Broadchurch. 

 

I'm also starting to feel there was false advertising about a different ending just to rope us in and watch this subpar remake.

Yeah, I'm feeling that as well. It certainly seems to be exactly the same.

 

Two differences from episode 7 of Broadchurch:

1) Vince was not released.

 

Although the scene with Vince and Susan was a bit more shocking than the original, it shouldn't be forgotten that he also threatened her in her caravan at the end of Broadchurch.

 

2) Carver didn't get the email about the contents of Tom's computer.

 

Episode 7 of Broadchurch finished with Hardy's "Oh shit" when he realised there were only 2 people Danny emailed.

 

Still, Jackie Weaver has said explicitly that it's a "different killer". Either it's Tom (which is possible) or it's some last minute addition they've done simply so they can say "it's a different killer". I'll be really disappointed if that's the case. It'd be really lazy writing.

[Slovenly Muse]

Yeah, they're definitely following Broadchurch's lead in setting up Joe to be the killer. They even worked pretty hard to set up the "How could you not know?" line, which felt a bit shoehorned in here, and not as natural as in Broadchurch, which means they're intentionally setting up that parallel. If they don't intend for it to pay off, then what a waste. And they are telegraphing Tom's weird behaviour way too much for it to actually be him. The only way this makes sense is if he's acting out of some twisted desperation to protect his father, who he suspects/knows killed Danny.

 

Or, new theory: Liaison Officer Pete is the killer! Obviously they don't have any OTHER reason for including him in this version! Some might say story padding and a memory of viewers liking him in the original, but I won't be swayed! The writers only PRETENDED to forget he existed so they could spring it on us in the finale!

[Ellaria]

Ellie's line to Joe, "what do you do all day," tells me that Joe is the killer. Why include it otherwise? Who cares if he painted the bedroom. Now, perhaps Tom is more involved here than he was in Broadchurch. That's the only change that would make sense to me.

 

This show continues to miss the mark. It lacks any sense of dread or suspense. The moody atmosphere of Broadchurch is gone. Casting choices add to the problems. Mark elicits little sympathy from me. Michael Pena's lack of expression doesn't convey shock and sadness. He looks looks lost in this role. The priest comes across as a complete creep. Why the extended hug with Beth?

 

The writing for Ellie is most troubling. She still hasn't moved past her "let's be nice to my neighbors" approach to crime-solving. Anna Gunn's perpetual pained expression isn't helping.

[Autumn]

Because they hit so hard on Danny and Tom not being friends anymore and Danny quit the team that Tom coached and Ellie asking "How could you not know what was going on in your own home" it would be strange if it wasn't Joe.  I guess it could be Tom this time who actually killed Danny.  They really haven't laid out any clues that point to Owen so that would be a total cheat.   

[sugarbaker design]

Casting choices add to the problems.

 

 

Couldn't agree more, Pena is not effective as he could be.  The actress who plays Danny's mother looks like a twelve year old, definitely not a mom.

 

Of course Nick Nolte and Jacki Weaver are exceptions.

 

Next week, I hope they redo the long walk through the town ending up at the Miller's.  I loved that scene.

Edited December 5, 2014 by sugarbaker design

[Guest]

A lot of people in the episode thread picked up on the "how could you not know" line, which I don't recall happening with the original, so I'm guessing it was less subtle here.  

 

Did Nigel have a 'danny' tat in Broadchurch?  In that, he was poaching with Danny, right?  I don't recall how it all tied into the opening scene with the cut fence, just that something did.  And the murder didn't have anything to do with the illegal acts, too, right?  That was pure pedo hug yuck?  

 

I really have no clue how they'll end it.  Ellie's baby did it?  We haven't seen him in a while.  

[GenieinTX]

A lot of people in the episode thread picked up on the "how could you not know" line, which I don't recall happening with the original, so I'm guessing it was less subtle here.

 

 

But it was so flat!  Maybe I'm remembering that line being more emotionally charged in BC because of the end result.  I was waiting for that line and when she delivered it, it was so throwaway. 

But I agree with the consesus, Joe is the killer or Joe is covering for Tom.  It's still going to be in her home.

[Ellaria]

A lot of people in the episode thread picked up on the "how could you not know" line, which I don't recall happening with the original, so I'm guessing it was less subtle here.  

 

It was much less subtle here. They basically hit us over the head with it. 

 

I may need to re-watch the last two episodes of Broadchurch to see if there is a difference in the details. The one thing that I wondered about was Ellie's sister's sighting. In Gracepoint, she sees the Solano truck. What did she see in Broadchurch?

[Guest]

Considering Gunn is playing Ellie as waaaaayyyy too forgiving, it was sort of out of the blue for her to suddenly clobber poor Susan with the guilt stick like that.  I'm not forgiving and still I would never say that in that situation, though of course I would think it.  

[alias1]

I think the thing with the cut fence at the beginning had to do with was Nigel's illegal hunting.  I don't remember that he had a Danny tattoo in Broadchurch.  I find that kind of creepy.  Maybe Vince isn't the actual killer, but he helped cover it up.  Maybe Susan really did see Vince carrying Danny's body from the boat to the beach.  In that case, I think it probably is Tom who is the killer.  I'm not sure Susan would mistake Joe for Vince even with a knit cap covering their hair or lack of hair.  Their body types look nothing alike to me.  The person running out of the hut looked more like Joe than Vince, although I'm inclined to think that was some random actor they used to make it vague. 

 

I remember the "how could you not know" line in Broadchurch (and how effective it was) and it immediately made me suspect Joe although Tom wasn't nearly as creepy in Broadchurch..  I don't remember the "what do you do all day" line from Ellie to Joe.  Did that happen in Broadchurch too?

Edited December 5, 2014 by SierraMist

[sugarbaker design]

I don't remember the "what do you do all day" line from Ellie to Joe.  Did that happen in Broadchurch too?

 

 

I don't think so, Broadchurch Joe was basically faultless until the last 30 minutes.

[Capricasix]

I don't remember Nige having a Danny tattoo in BC, either.

I still think it's Joe. Even despite his creepiness, I don't think Tom would be strong enough to kill Danny and drag his body down to the boat, etc. On GP, when Ellie's sister was driving home after having a few too many drinks, and she saw the van, that was in the woods, right? Is the hut that close to the woods? On BC, Ellie's sister saw someone putting something in a garbage bin, IIRC.

[mjc570]

I probably am not remembering this correctly, but wasn't the cut fence in Broadchurch related to the gas stealing? 

[Guest]

I was curious so I looked at some old Broadchurch recaps.  The cut fence was Nigel stealing gas because he ran out while poaching that night.  The sister saw Joe put his bag of clothes in a trash bin.  

 

I'm thinking Tom will be the killer, with Joe doing the cover-up.  Danny Latimer was choked to death but Danny Solano was killed by blunt force trauma to the head.  A smaller boy could kill that way.  Maybe he walked in on the pedo stuff.  Gunn still gets her Emmy scene, times two even. 

 

It might be fun if Tom was the killer and Nigel the pedo/coverup guy.  That tattoo is super creepy.  But how stupid would you have to be to get that tat if there was anything creepy going on?  Or is it possible he got it before Danny died?  

 

If Nigel and Danny had something going on, the "how could you not know" would also apply to Mark, in this case, I guess.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by Guest

[morgankobi]

So, if we go with Tom being the killer, what was the deal with him following the hiker? Tom's disappearance basically made-up for the extra episodes, and is the only main difference from Broadchurch, so it must be important. Right? 

At this point, I'm not confident they will change the killer, but if it's changed to Tom that's just barely a change.

[Guest]

Maybe Tom was trying to plant the crossword puzzle book on the hiker, to muddle the investigation?  

[HermitsUnited]

I think the thing with the cut fence at the beginning had to do with was Nigel's illegal hunting.  I don't remember that he had a Danny tattoo in Broadchurch.  I find that kind of creepy.  Maybe Vince isn't the actual killer, but he helped cover it up.  Maybe Susan really did see Vince carrying Danny's body from the boat to the beach.  In that case, I think it probably is Tom who is the killer.  I'm not sure Susan would mistake Joe for Vince even with a knit cap covering their hair or lack of hair.  Their body types look nothing alike to me.  The person running out of the hut looked more like Joe than Vince, although I'm inclined to think that was some random actor they used to make it vague. 

 

I remember the "how could you not know" line in Broadchurch (and how effective it was) and it immediately made me suspect Joe although Tom wasn't nearly as creepy in Broadchurch..  I don't remember the "what do you do all day" line from Ellie to Joe.  Did that happen in Broadchurch too?

 

The "what do you do all day" line definitely happened in Broadchurch. In fact, that whole scene was more aggressive in BC than GP. It's at the end of the seventh episode. Ellie loses her shit because she can't find Tom's laptop at 2 in the morning. Joe is unhelpful, telling her to leave it until morning. They then both get really pissy at each other and she says something about "you can't even paint this room". The scene in GP last night seemed much more rushed and less charged. Probably because Anna Gunn was really unconvincing though...

I don't think so, Broadchurch Joe was basically faultless until the last 30 minutes.

 

He wasn't faultless...it was more neither Ellie or Hardy thought to question him. There are plenty of suspect lines/scenes with Joe in BC. Enough that I definitely knew from the dinner scene that it was him.

So, if we go with Tom being the killer, what was the deal with him following the hiker? Tom's disappearance basically made-up for the extra episodes, and is the only main difference from Broadchurch, so it must be important. Right? 

At this point, I'm not confident they will change the killer, but if it's changed to Tom that's just barely a change.

Yeah. I wonder how much significance it had because the plot went straight back to BC the moment Tom was found. At this point in time that entire diversion seems like a complete waste of time. Either Tom was looking to scapegoat the hiker or perhaps he was hoping the hiker was Danny's "new friend" as opposed to Joe. Although we haven't gotten too much of the "new friend" vibe in GP. Tom hasn't come out with the "why do you think I liked him. He wasn't my friend. I hated him" line that occurred at Jack's wake. In fact the whole Tom/Danny thing seems to be a bit nastier than BC. Tom has definitely been set up more as a bully than someone who simply fell out with his friend.

[Ellaria]

The sister saw Joe put his bag of clothes in a trash bin.

Thanks - that's what I thought. But in GP, she sees someone - presumed to be Vince - with the Solano truck. If the killer is Joe, why would he have the truck? Or is the sister's sighting another red herring?

I agree that GP Tom is much creepier than BC Tom. If he doesn't have some culpability in all of this, I will be surprised.

[Maelstrom]

The "what do you do all day" line definitely happened in Broadchurch. In fact, that whole scene was more aggressive in BC than GP. It's at the end of the seventh episode.

I spent most of the episode last night saying "Did this happen in Broadchurch?" lol. And I actually didn't remember this line, but then again I watched on BBC America with all of their lovely hatchet-job edits. Any other BBCA viewers remember if this line was shown on BBCA's airings?

 

Agree that the "How could you not know" scene and Tennant's admission of what really happened in Rosemont were both far more effective (and came about more naturally) in BC than GP.

 

Still thinking either Tom or Joe. Though I'm still puzzled why/how a show that is basically an exact remake of BC would go with a different murderer. *puzzled face*

[Guest]

I think they went (or claimed to) go with a different murderer so all those of us who watched Broadchurch would have incentive to watch Gracepoint.  I would've regardless but I'm not sure I would've stuck with it to the end, if they hadn't said it's someone different, given how the show just isn't firing on all cylinders.  I like a mystery.  

[alias1]

Winston9-DT3 said:  The sister saw Joe put his bag of clothes in a trash bin.

-----

Oh wow!  That's a pretty big change from Gracepoint.  What was Ellie's reaction when her sister told her that?

[HermitsUnited]

Winston9-DT3 said:  The sister saw Joe put his bag of clothes in a trash bin.

-----

Oh wow!  That's a pretty big change from Gracepoint.  What was Ellie's reaction when her sister told her that?

I don't think the sister knew it was Joe. She just described a man. And again she was an unreliable witness at the time I think. The audience only knew it was Joe because they showed a brief clip of him doing it when they recapped the murder in the final episode.

[alias1]

I don't think the sister knew it was Joe. She just described a man. And again she was an unreliable witness at the time I think. The audience only knew it was Joe because they showed a brief clip of him doing it when they recapped the murder in the final episode.

Oh.  thanks.  I didn't think I could have forgotten Ellie's reaction to that. 

 

Still, a big difference from Broadchurch. 

[Guest]

I don't think the sister knew it was Joe. She just described a man. And again she was an unreliable witness at the time I think. The audience only knew it was Joe because they showed a brief clip of him doing it when they recapped the murder in the final episode.

Exactly!  

[Ellaria]

We have established that Ellie's sister's sighting is different in GP than in BC. She tells Ellie that she saw the Solano plumbing van the night Danny died. She described a man moving something heavy covered with a tarp. The viewer - and Ellie - is left to assume that the man she saw is Vince.

If the killer is Joe, how would he have access to the van? Or is this change from BC a clue that the killer is not Joe? And what was that individual moving? Something "heavy covered with a tarp" sounds like it could be Danny's body but that wouldn't make sense.

[Guest]

I think the van could be a red herring.  Innocent Vince could've been out poaching that night, and moving prey around in a tarp.  (Though for now my money's on Vince and Tom as guilty.)

 

Danny was killed at the hut and moved by boat to the beach, right?  Would he even have been transported by car?  Hut into car to boat to beach?  Seems convoluted.  Why not skip the boating expedition and just toss the body off the bluff?  

Edited December 6, 2014 by Guest

[Ellaria]

I think the van could be a red herring.  Innocent Vince could've been out poaching that night, and moving prey around in a tarp.  (Though for now my money's on Vince and Tom as guilty.)

 

Danny was killed at the hut and moved by boat to the beach, right?  Would he even have been transported by car?  Hut into car to boat to beach?  Seems convoluted.  Why not skip the boating expedition and just toss the body off the bluff?

I agree; I think that the van is another red herring.

Has it be confirmed that Danny was killed in the hut? (I'm starting to get elements confused with BC.) Or do we just know that he was in the hut? I never quite understood the logistics of moving the body from the hut to the boat and then to the beach. Getting the van involved in moving the body does seem very convoluted.

[Guest]

I get them confused, too!  They believe he was killed in the Harvey Ridge house, which was 'the hut' on BC.  I guess it's 2 miles from the beach he was found on?  I wonder where the stolen boat was tied up.  

 

http://gracepoint.wikia.com/wiki/Harvey_Ridge

 

In BC, did Joe say why he didn't just dump the body in the ocean?  It felt too disrespectful or something?  

 

 

 

 

[staveDarsky]

On BC, it was Joe who confirmed Danny died in the hut/cottage, after he'd been arrested. The police couldn't confirm more than finding Danny's blood and strong evidence of the place being cleaned afterward. GP is at the same point, with the evidence only showing Danny bled there and the hut was cleaned.

 

I found the last couple of BC episodes online and managed to find all the parallel scenes to those on this week's GP. Aside from a few line reassignments between characters and different angles on the shots, GP episode 9 was taken from BC episodes 7 and 8.

I'm beginning to think that what we heard from the powers behind Gracepoint as a promise that "the killer's different" was actually worded as "the ending will be different" and that could be almost anything. 

[Ellaria]

Well, this is interesting...photos of the finale can be found on this site:

http://www.david-tennant-news.com/blog/gracepoint-episode-10-photos-finale-contain-spoilers/

 

Those photos combined with their captions can be considered major spoilers as to the killer's identity by process of elimination.

[Guest]

Hm.  I can only eliminate three suspects, assuming the parents and detectives aren't suspects.  Sound right?  

[alias1]

Well, I never thought it was anyone in Danny's family and not the detectives.  There were only 3 suspects ever in my mind and two of them are not in the crowd picture.

[Guest]

Is the third in the funeral picture?  

[HermitsUnited]

Actually, you can eliminate a fair few suspects based on those photos. One just has to remember that Danny's body couldn't be buried until the killer was caught.

 

Based on that assumption, the following are "safe": Beth, Mark, Paul, Carver, Ellie, Dean, Chloe, Danny's Grandma, Kathy, and Vince.

 

Noticeable absentees in the pictures: Joe and Tom.

 

Honourable mentions: Susan and Owen. However, Susan left town at the end of the previous episode which implies she's out. And I'm 99% sure that the back of Owen's head is in the funeral picture.

 

I'm guessing FOX really don't care about this at all anymore considering the content of those photos. Especially odd considering how careful ITV were in Britain when they aired Broadchurch. They went to painstaking lengths to keep the killer's identity a secret until episode 8 played.

 

Jackie Weaver (lady who plays Susan) is the only person I've heard of who has actually used the words "different killer". Everybody else used "different ending". So did Tom catch Joe "hugging" Danny? I still think Joe is involved somehow (and not just covering up evidence). I think the twist will be that it was accidental that Tom killed Danny. Maybe he wanted to stop his Dad doing something and accidentally hit Danny instead? 

 

Not entirely convinced by the above scenario because there's a couple of things Tom says that imply he could still be innocent (the whole thing where he's worried about how long someone goes to prison for). But I really get the impression that in the end, Gracepoint wasn't that different from Broadchurch.

 

 

[Slovenly Muse]

I'm pretty sure that "different ending" means that unlike Broadchurch, Gracepoint will end with a long, lingering shot of the ocean, with whales native to the Pacific coast breaching as the credits roll...

[Ellaria]

Actually, you can eliminate a fair few suspects based on those photos. One just has to remember that Danny's body couldn't be buried until the killer was caught.

Based on that assumption, the following are "safe": Beth, Mark, Paul, Carver, Ellie, Dean, Chloe, Danny's Grandma, Kathy, and Vince.

 

Noticeable absentees in the pictures: Joe and Tom...

 

...But I really get the impression that in the end, Gracepoint wasn't that different from Broadchurch.

 

That's my take-away as well. I am left wondering why they bothered with this re-make in the first place.

[GreyBunny]

I am left wondering why they bothered with this re-make in the first place.

 

Me too.  All they did was make it worse.