S01.E02: Episode 2

[lucindabelle]

Yeah Purdue and jud are useles, not quaint, uncouth and self absorbed. For the life of me I don't know why Poldark doesn't fire them and hire two people from the town, who a,l love him.

[Llywela]

I think it is more that I am completely unfamiliar with the material, and you are far more aware of it, so it may have less to do with how clearly the adaptation is presenting these ideas and more to do with my understanding of the world that is being presented here.  Regardless, from where I sit, I see a main character who thinks his own class is somewhat backward and constricting, and an emerging class of people who are unscrupulous in their desire to maximize profit.  And I see Ross as somewhere between the two.

 

I don't really see where the idea that Ross is entering into trade by reopening the mine - by becoming himself a capitalist - is such a betrayal of the idea that he is a member of the landed gentry.  The fact is that the landed gentry in Britain likely survived by becoming a part of the Industrial Revolution.  That he could take what was somewhat decent about the system prior to the Industrial Revolution - that the landed gentry owed something to the people who depended on them - and apply it to the oncoming Industrial Revolution - does not mean that Ross isn't entering into trade.

 

This may be where I do bring an inherently American view to the whole thing.  Going into business isn't a bad thing - it doesn't cheapen one's worth. And being a member of the landed gentry who is essentially unable to support the people around him - as Francis appears to be - isn't a credit to his class.  So I have no problem of conceiving of Ross as a gentleman who has gone into trade.  But I realize that there may be a brighter line between the two in Britain.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here - you seem to feel I'm taking a kind of offence at the idea of Ross going into trade. I'm not. I'm trying to explain the subtleties of the class system, wherein Ross is not going into trade and wouldn't be seen as such by anyone.

 

I'm not saying that going into business is a bad thing, or that it cheapens anyone's worth. I'm saying that mining isn't a new thing - by re-opening the mine, Ross isn't making a break from past traditions or doing something different from the other landed gentry around him, which is what you seem to be implying. You are right that Ross is ideologically somewhere between the two, but his re-opening the mine isn't indicative of a break with tradition. Most of the landed gentry in that part of Cornwall owned mines - the Trenwith Poldarks own and run a mine, the profit of which paid for that grand house of theirs. The mining tradition in Cornwall isn't part of the Industrial Revolution, it pre-dates it by centuries. It formed part of the old order. The gentry had land that was largely barren and unproductive, so they used it for mining tin and copper, which provided them with an income and their tenants with wages, in just the same way that the gentry in other parts of the country farmed their land. Charles and Francis are unable to support the tenants on their land because their mine is several hundred years old and largely worked out, no longer profitable, and they have neither the capital nor the business nouse to know how to deal with that other than by continuing to struggle along as they are (plus, this adaptation seems hell bent on coding them as bad versus Ross the goodie). The mine that Ross wants to re-open was believed worked out in his father's day, so he's taking a gamble by re-opening it. The change wrought on this ancient tradition by the Industrial Revolution is all about scale - ownership of mines increasingly becomes centralised rather than local as it had been previously. Most of the mines are old, many struggling - people like the Warleggans gain an interest through usury, then take ownership and close them down to boost profit elsewhere. That's the break with tradition. What Ross is doing isn't. He's doing a good thing - providing employment for his tenants in hope of making enough profit to justify the investment. But what he's doing isn't something new and revolutionary, nor is it stepping outside the traditional landlord-tenant relationship in any way. He's just taking up the family business. And the other local gentry wouldn't see him as going into trade by doing so, just as profiting from the produce of farms on his land wouldn't be seen as trade - if he went and opened a blacksmith's shop, now, that would be different! But mining in Cornwall is traditional and the gentry have always been part of it, it's just another way of making an income off their land. And that's the mark of a gentleman - he owns land, which supports him. Overseeing mines on the land, overseeing farms on the land - it would be seen as good estate management, rather than trade, even if the produce does have to be sold either way!

 

ETA - although to be sure, the greater nobility in other parts of the country might turn their nose up at how hands-on some of these Cornish bumpkins are! But the Poldarks are not high nobility. They are country squires. In short, re-opening a mine on his land isn't what makes Ross different from others of his ilk; the level of concern he has for his tenants as people worthy of care and friendship rather than seeing them as a great unwashed mass, that's what makes him stand out.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Llywela

[jjj]

Elizabeth wears as much lipstick as the working girl!

The bright lipstick on Elizabeth is completely distracting and out of context.  No one of her class would have worn a color like that outside a masquerade; if they wanted to use lip color on the actress, there are so many natural choices.

[Haleth]

This is part of the trouble with the way Francis is presented in this adaptation - they've gone overboard in trying to make him the villain, the bad guy, who does everything wrong. I presume to make Ross look better by comparison and to stoke the fires of the love triangle? But that presentation strips away the complexity of the original story and turns it into something it isn't. Suffice to say, Francis does not knock Verity to the ground in the books - that's a detail thrown in by the writer of this adaptation to make him look bad.

 

As someone who has not read the book or has seen the previous production, I disagree.  I don't see Francis as a villain at all.  He seems to be a sweet man trying to make the best of a very awkward position.  Ross's and Elizabeth's behaviour at the ball was disgraceful so it will be difficult for Francis to turn a deaf ear to the whispers of scandal.  The duel was a knee jerk reaction to his anger.  I'm afraid he's going to lose everything before the series is over; his (family's) house and income to George and his wife to Ross.

[Milz]

The "riding across fields" is supposed to symbolize the passage of time. I haven't figured out if the number of times Ross rides back and forth is supposed to indicate days, weeks, months. Frankly, I think it would have been better if they had a caption like June 1788 or Christmas 1789.

 

Jud and Prudie are the housekeepers at Nampara but they are also lazy and somewhat irresponsible. So as Demelza grew up, she took over many of the jobs Prudie  and Jud are supposed do. Ross bringing Demelza into town to make household purchases is something he had to do. It also gets the gossips gossiping.

[Llywela]

Frankly, I think it would have been better if they had a caption like June 1788 or Christmas 1789.

Amen to that! Can we suggest it for season two...

[twoods]

I agree- the pacing is confusing. I had to stop watching after 10 minutes because I was confused as to what was going on and it was too late to think that much. Maybe I will wait until the season is over so it can be binge watched in one day.

Poor Verity- she is a servant in her own house. I don't understand why she's expected to do everything while Elizabeth just sits and acts tortured. I don't blame her for wanting to leave that house.

[Llywela]

As someone who has not read the book or has seen the previous production, I disagree.  I don't see Francis as a villain at all.  He seems to be a sweet man trying to make the best of a very awkward position.  Ross's and Elizabeth's behaviour at the ball was disgraceful so it will be difficult for Francis to turn a deaf ear to the whispers of scandal.  The duel was a knee jerk reaction to his anger.  I'm afraid he's going to lose everything before the series is over; his (family's) house and income to George and his wife to Ross.

Perhaps villainise is the wrong word. But this adaptation does make a point of showing Francis in the worst possible light wherever possible - it exaggerates his faults, while failing to demonstrate his strengths. And I just find that a shame - and unnecessary. He can be a dreadful chump in his own right, the story doesn't need for that to be exaggerated. It just isn't a very subtle approach to the characters.

[Rhetorica]

Having not read the book nor seen the previous version, I'm content to just go with what is presented. I have requested the e-book from the library and after reading it, I'll discuss it in the book thread rather than comparing it here since it distracts the conversation.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Having not read the book nor seen the previous version, I'm content to just go with what is presented. I have requested the e-book from the library and after reading it, I'll discuss it in the book thread rather than comparing it here since it distracts the conversation.

 

Yes, in any adaptation, there can be too much attention to "that's not how it is in the books." (I've experienced that in countless discussions re Austen). At some point, in my view, you have to just enjoy (or not enjoy) an adaptation for what it is - I usually try to judge an adaptation on its own merits, not in comparison to the source material because every adaptation is going to change something from its source material.

 

To me, Francis isn't being presented as villainous - that's clearly George and his uncle - but mostly as weak.  But I also think we're being given ample evidence as to why he'd feel insecure about his relationship.  His wife flinches from him, and his cousin isn't exactly hiding the fact that he still wants Francis's wife.  Frankly, I think he's showing a lot of patience towards them that is unwarranted. 

 

Still, he displaced his anger onto his sister and her suitor, and he handled that situation badly.  But still, his motivations - even in that - are eminently understandable.

Edited June 30, 2015 by eleanorofaquitaine

[jjj]

I had NO idea the galloping was supposed to represent the passage of time.  I'll have to pay more attention to what happens at each end of the gallop. 

[dubbel zout]

Ross's and Elizabeth's behaviour at the ball was disgraceful so it will be difficult for Francis to turn a deaf ear to the whispers of scandal.

 

Then Francis shouldn't have asked Ross to dance with Elizabeth in the first place. Francis knows those two have feelings for each other, and he needs to stop baiting them.

 

That said, I do think the show is overdoing the "Francis is weak" aspect. 

 

Poor Verity- she is a servant in her own house. I don't understand why she's expected to do everything while Elizabeth just sits and acts tortured. I don't blame her for wanting to leave that house.

 

1) Verity is unmarried, and traditionally the unmarried daughter helped out at home until she had her own.

2) Elizabeth is the heir's wife; as such, people cater to her.

3) I'd want to get the hell out of there, too. None of those people are very nice.

Edited June 30, 2015 by dubbel zout

[Milz]

I had NO idea the galloping was supposed to represent the passage of time.  I'll have to pay more attention to what happens at each end of the gallop. 

 

 

I figured that out Sunday night.  Initially I thought the galloping was an homage to the 75 series where Ross is galloping over the beaches and cliffs. But then I realized that it was to show the passage of time. How many gallops or how long the gallop scene runs I think is directly proportion to the amount of time that has passed. As I wrote up thread with the condensation of the plot, it would have been more instructive if there were captions that indicated the month and year or the season and year rather that "giddyup!"

 

 

 

1) Verity is unmarried, and traditionally the unmarried daughter helped out at home until she had her own.

2) Elizabeth is the heir's wife; as such, people cater to her.

3) I'd want to get the hell out of there, too. None of those people are very nice.

 

As Lady of the House, Elizabeth would have been handed the "keys" when she married Francis. And her responsibility would be to manage the household from hiring/firing servants to deciding the daily menu to overseeing the making of household items like preserved foods, candles, soap to seeing that the mending and washing were done. But Verity retains much of that responsibility because Elizabeth is supposed to be too frail and too delicate to do those things unassisted.

[lucindabelle]

What was disgraceful about dancing?

 I was surprised Francis pushed her to dance with Ross when one episode ago he was apologizing to Ross for being engaged to her and worrying Elizabeth would leave him. And then had to be reminded why he could maybe be jealous. That seemed pretty contrived.

[Haleth]

What was disgraceful about dancing?

It wasn't the dancing that was disgraceful, but the smoldering looks into each others' eyes and the prolonged physical contact (outside of the dance) that set tongues wagging.

 

I must admit my idea of proper etiquette of the 18th c comes from Jane Austin and Diana Gabaldon.

[AuntiePam]

The galloping indicates passage of time?  As in days, months?  I thought it was just to make the change in locations clear. 

[dubbel zout]

But Verity retains much of that responsibility because Elizabeth is supposed to be too frail and too delicate to do those things unassisted.

 

Doesn't the housekeeper deal with the more mundane issues? 

 

Mostly we've seen Verity barked at by her father to do this or that. And Elizabeth outranks her in the family order.

Edited June 30, 2015 by dubbel zout

[jjj]

Really? Don't you ever wake up in the morning, look out the window, and see a galloping horse go by?

   ;)

 

I am confused about the older woman in household of Francis and his father -- that is not the mother of Francis?  Because the father would own the house/property, but yes, Elizabeth would be the mistress of the household if Francis' mother is dead. And as you all note, the chores would be done by many others. 

 

I tried looking up the characters, and got lost -- but did see that Winston Graham has a writing credit for these eight episodes.  I assume that is a legal requirement, as he died in 2003 at age 95.  His birthday is today, June 30, 1908. 

[DHDancer]

   ;)

 

I am confused about the older woman in household of Francis and his father -- that is not the mother of Francis?  Because the father would own the house/property, but yes, Elizabeth would be the mistress of the household if Francis' mother is dead. And as you all note, the chores would be done by many others. 

 

I tried looking up the characters, and got lost -- but did see that Winston Graham has a writing credit for these eight episodes.  I assume that is a legal requirement, as he died in 2003 at age 95.  His birthday is today, June 30, 1908. 

 

Which older woman?  Aunt Agatha or Mrs Chynoweth?   Aunt Agatha is previous generation Poldark to Charles (Francis's father) and Joshua (Ross's father): ie their father's sister. She's a spinster aunt and is somewhat pivotal in the story.  Mrs Chynoweth is Elizabeth's mother (the father is around somewhere) and is the one who constantly reminded Elizabeth of her obligation to marry well.  The Chynoweths are an ancient lineage Cornwall family like the Poldarks, although marginally more impoverished.

[dubbel zout]

Winston Graham has a writing credit for these eight episodes.  I assume that is a legal requirement, as he died in 2003 at age 95.  His birthday is today, June 30, 1908.

He gets a "based on the books by" credit, I believe, which is standard for adapted material. Shakespeare still gets credit, and he's been dead for almost 400 years.

[KR Vermont]

I guess it's assumed that the audience for this adaptation has at least a passing familiarity with the story; I knew nothing about it and yet it's obvious that there is so much that isn't fleshed out, for whatever reasons. I'm ambivalent about watching the remaining episodes (and don't care to read the books at this time).

[lucindabelle]

I don't think that's assumed at all. It's a legal reqquirement to put in "based on" when the source is known. Winton is dead, but his works are hardly public domain yet, which is death plus 70.

and as pointed out, we always give sources to Shakespear, Moliere, etc.

 

Masterpiece Theatre's original history was adaptations of books.

[attica]

Is it pedantic to point out how wrong the men's hair is for the period? The stylized short 'dos don't come into fashion until 1810s thereabouts. They should be wearing queues, powdered or not, and/or wigs (like Uncle does).

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Is it pedantic to point out how wrong the men's hair is for the period? The stylized short 'dos don't come into fashion until 1810s thereabouts. They should be wearing queues, powdered or not, and/or wigs (like Uncle does).

 

This is the type of thing I don't sweat.  It's an adaptation of a piece of fiction, not a documentary or a reenactment.  In my view, sometime too much of an obsession with "authenticity" can be a distraction in and of itself.  Wigs, powdered hair, all of that stuff, while I know is authentic to the period, would be distracting to me as the viewer.  I'd much rather see the more modern hair style that we are seeing on the men because it means I am focusing less on their hair and more on the story.

 

Obviously, there are times when producers can take anachronisms too far, too. (For instance, I think that the change where people are calling him Ross without the honorific may be an anachronism too far). But an effort to be too authentic can be taken too far, in my opinion.

[Milz]

Aunt Agatha is the sister of Ross's and Francis' grandfather. She's something like 90 years old.

 

The housekeeper does work which is overseen by the Lady of the House. Elizabeth isn't like Cora Grantham who does, essentially, nothing.

[lucindabelle]

Wow, I totally forgot about the hair, but you're right.

That long hair with bow thing can be very attractive-- I mean I've seen it be so on films set in this period before.

Then again, Elizabeth has lipstick on.

and all of their teeth are way too white.

[JudyObscure]

Surprised that Margaret makes house calls.  The Warleggans are okay with a prostitute being seen coming and going from their house?

 

I think we were shown that as an example of what upstarts the Warleggans are.  Gentlemen had mistresses and consorted with prostitutes at their clubs, but most of them were too discreet to have them in their home.

 

The lipstick bothered me, too ,and Demelza's skin tight new dress that would have ripped at the armpits the first time she lifted the coal scuttle.

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[Red Fields]

I did not even realize that Ross slept with the prostitute, Margaret! I thought the skinny-dip scene was just a chance to ogle.

[CalamityBoPeep]

And rides horses back and forth from Trenwith and Nampara. 

 

And so frequently.  It had me wondering just how near to each other these great houses are supposed to be.  Is it really supposed to be so convenient that they can just hop on a horse and ride at a gallop to get back and forth?  (Horses don't typically handle prolonged galloping all that well.  They sprint fine, but for distances, they really need to take it a bit easier.)  I guess I just always had the impression that country houses of the time generally had miles and miles between them... lots of land and room for villages and such.  Maybe I was wrong on that front. 

[proserpina65]

Finally got around to watching this episode (yeah, that's how interested I was), and not much has changed for me.  I do think better of Demelza; her delight over that cloak was palpable.  I felt sorry for Verity, but honey, if you really want to be out from under your father's thumb, run off with your sea captain; yeah, I know, not likely to work out well, but still, can it really be worse than living at home the rest of your life?  Francis was something of an ass this week, and boy is he malleable.  Elizabeth is still inexplicable.  Aidan Turner still only has one believable expression.  And I finally get what everyone was saying about the "riding along the cliff" thing.  There was a whole lot of it in this episode.  I guess I'll stick with this a bit longer, but only until something I'd rather watch shows up in the same time slot.

[proserpina65]

I think a certain suspension of 21st century attitudes has to occur for stories set in the 18th century - people had very different ideas then.

Edited July 3, 2015 by proserpina65

[Llywela]

And so frequently.  It had me wondering just how near to each other these great houses are supposed to be.  Is it really supposed to be so convenient that they can just hop on a horse and ride at a gallop to get back and forth?  (Horses don't typically handle prolonged galloping all that well.  They sprint fine, but for distances, they really need to take it a bit easier.)  I guess I just always had the impression that country houses of the time generally had miles and miles between them... lots of land and room for villages and such.  Maybe I was wrong on that front. 

Depends on the area - depends on how large the estates in question are! I believe it's about 5/6 miles from Nampara to Trenwith, iirc? I know in the first book they describe it as a bit far to walk comfortably but not far enough to really be worth riding! I believe those two are probably closer together than most because they are on the land inherited by two brothers, so side by side and a partition of what was maybe once a larger estate. Nampara doesn't have a huge estate and doesn't house any villages as such, only the little row of Mellin cottages (a hamlet rather than a village), although it does have more than one mine. Trenwith has Grambler mine and village on its land. Neither are large estates, really - these are country squires rather than lords of the manor. It's your lords of the manor types who have the really big estates enclosing huge areas of land. Think Jane Austen - in Pride and Prejudice the Bennetts and Lucases and even Netherfield are all within walking/riding distance of one another.

 

I suspect the galloping across the cliffs is just a TV aesthetic and they'd have ridden at a more sedate pace, in general!

Edited July 3, 2015 by Llywela

[DHDancer]

Trenwith and Nampara are 4 miles apart.  A good walk or a short ride, depending on your urgency ....

Edited July 3, 2015 by DHDancer

[Llywela]

Trenwith and Nampara are 4 miles apart.  A good walk or a short ride, depending on your urgency ....

Thank you! I wasn't far off.

[dubbel zout]

I felt sorry for Verity, but honey, if you really want to be out from under your father's thumb, run off with your sea captain; yeah, I know, not likely to work out well, but still, can it really be worse than living at home the rest of your life?

 

If Verity eloped, it's likely she'd be disowned—so no dowry—as well as have her social standing ruined. I doubt she has that much strength of character. No judgement on her for that, as it would take a very tough woman to accept that situation.

 

I suspect the galloping across the cliffs is just a TV aesthetic and they'd have ridden at a more sedate pace, in general!

 

Exactly. As well as being more cinematic, galloping horses also gives a sense of urgency and indicates time moving forward.

[Llywela]

If Verity eloped, it's likely she'd be disowned—so no dowry—as well as have her social standing ruined. I doubt she has that much strength of character. No judgement on her for that, as it would take a very tough woman to accept that situation.

I feel it's worth pointing out that Verity was about to elope with Blamey when Charles and Francis caught them - no dowry, no family blessing, just the two of them running away together. Verity has a strong will, or she'd never have continued the relationship in secret in the first place. It was the outcome of that confrontation that changed her mind -

with her father having a heart attack from stress and her brother wounded by her intended, she felt it impossible now to continue the relationship. She could have hardened her heart and gone with Blamey in the aftermath, but then the separation from her family would have been complete and she wasn't prepared to go through with that. If she'd slipped away to wed on the quiet as originally intended, the family would have been furious but she'd have hope that they'd get over it and forgive her in time. After the duel and Charles's heart attack, however, no chance. And when it came to choosing, in the heat of the moment, she chose her family, not because she is trapped and has to live as a servant - she really doesn't, although she does run the house and supervise the servants, taking what would have once been her mother's role, which Elizabeth has never assumed - but because she loves them and couldn't see them hurt like that, couldn't just run off not knowing if they were okay. The tragedy for Verity isn't that her family have trapped her, for their own purposes (they haven't; that's not what this was about) but that her circumstances have trapped her. She wants to spread her wings and make a home of her own, but this was her one chance and now it's gone.

[marys1000]

I wish writers, of all shows, didn't rely on what seems like rather stupid lack of communication to further plot lines.  It happens all the time.

 

Here, there is the scene where when Poldark is trying to get Elizabeth's husband to go to his meeting on funding the mine the husband says something to the effect "of only doing business with people he trusts" and Poldark just stares at him rather stupidly and walks away.

Obviously this is the result of the banker whispering poison in his ear and necessary to set up some future falling out. 

But really - who wouldn't in Poldark's shoes say "what?  I hope you know you can trust me cousin!"  It would be the most natural response in the world.  Plot writing like this always jars me out of the narrative/story. 

[taanja]

Wow, so much (to me) baseless complaining about this show here, both in the Ep 1 comments and now here. Much of it seems based on misunderstandings of things, and I don't have hours to respond to all those. Guess I'll go elsewhere for discussion. I will say that I think nitpicking this show just spoils it for the viewer, but obviously many are bent on doing so.

Thank you Big Bad Wolf. That is why I don't very often post in any of these forums. It seems all anyone can do is nit pick a show apart until there is nothing left to like. I guess there is such a thing as "hate watching" TV shows but ...um.. my time is too valuable and I have too many channels/choices to spend my time watching something that doesn't entertain me.

Anyway. I did watch the original Poldark back in the day --- but that was long ago and far away. I don't remember anything specific just that I liked it. In fact, I had no clue until I came here and read that this was a re-make of the Masterpiece show I had watched all those years ago.

I am finding this one to be just lovely. The characters and actors portraying them are all doing a good job as far as I am concerned. I am in for the long haul.

[twoods]

I will try to give this show a chance but this episode bored me. I FFed through a lot of it. The Verity romance was based on one meeting? And then there is a rediculous duel that Francis started, he gets shot, and it's somehow Poldark's fault? The scenes keep cutting back and forth without any rhyme or reason, and they spend too many scenes on horse galloping when they can spend it on plot development.

Please let episode three be better- I do like the acting and characters for the most part, so I want to give it a chance.

[HyacinthBucket]

The opening scene, with the sky roiling and the clouds is just WONDERFUL!  I wish it lasted longer.

 

On a more carnal note, YE GODS is he a pretty thing!

 

 

Distractingly gorgeous.  

Oh, there's a plot?  

 

When I first read these two comments a couple of weeks ago, I thought to myself that the actor was "OK" looking, but since then, I've come to completely agree with the above!  I don't usually wade much in the shallow end of the pool, but I've rolled up my pants and will hang out here for the rest of the series.  

 

Poor Verity.  The actress plays her so sweetly, and my heart goes out to a woman who is merely looked upon as her father's personal servant.  I'm looking forward to more of her story.

[Nampara]

I will try to give this show a chance but this episode bored me. I FFed through a lot of it. The Verity romance was based on one meeting? 

No, it wasn't. They met at the dance, and then they met in Truro on at least one occasion, perhaps more. Ross saw Verity there when he and Demelza went to town, and we the viewers later saw Verity say goodbye to Blamey after their visit.

[twoods]

No, it wasn't. They met at the dance, and then they met in Truro on at least one occasion, perhaps more. Ross saw Verity there when he and Demelza went to town, and we the viewers later saw Verity say goodbye to Blamey after their visit.

Thank you! I assumed it was only once more at Truro. I do like Verity and am glad they gave her a storyline.

[TomServo]

I'm having a really hard time getting into the Verity character, but I think it's because the only other thing I've seen Ruby Bentall in was the Paradise and I couldn't stand that character and thought she was overacting.  I'm struggling to put that out of my mind when she's on the screen.  Maybe it will go away eventually.

[jah1986]

50 minutes ago, TomServo said:

I'm having a really hard time getting into the Verity character, but I think it's because the only other thing I've seen Ruby Bentall in was the Paradise and I couldn't stand that character and thought she was overacting.  I'm struggling to put that out of my mind when she's on the screen.  Maybe it will go away eventually.

Aww, Verity was my favorite character from this season.  I've never seen Paradise but I did see the actress in Larkrise to Candleford and liked her better in Poldark.

[seacliffsal]

I actually have a hard time telling Margaret and Elizabeth apart at times.  I think it has a bit to do with the lipstick that they have on Elizabeth-too much like a prostitute and not enough like a 'lady' for that era.  They also have similar hairstyles at times.  

[LJones41]

Quote

 

This is one of my biggest regrets about this adaptation - it gives such a horrible presentation of Francis, exaggerating all his faults while showing none of his strengths to balance them out. 

 

 

 

 

What balance?  I've seen the 1975 adaptation of the first novel.  I've read the first novel.  Francis came off like a douche in both versions, let alone the 2015 adaptation.  Do people regard the novels and 70s adaptations through rose colored glasses?  Or do they simply have vague memories of the novels and the previous television series?

Edited December 5, 2016 by LJones41

[Llywela]

14 hours ago, LJones41 said:

What balance?  I've seen the 1975 adaptation of the first novel.  I've read the first novel.  Francis came off like a douche in both versions, let alone the 2015 adaptation.  Do people regard the novels and 70s adaptations through rose colored glasses?  Or do they simply have vague memories of the novels and the previous television series?

And I have read all 12 novels, so am in a more informed position on their full content than you are. I am not viewing them through rose coloured glasses, I am simply stating as fact that they offer a more balanced presentation of Francis as a character than we are given in this adaptation (including that first novel, which you claim to have read). But this is not the thread to discuss that.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Llywela