S03.E01: The World We Seize/S03.E02: The Last Unicorns

[Emily Thrace]

I am think maybe it would have been smart to kill the Omec

 

 

No it is actually smart to get the gulanite first and then kill the Omec. Without the Gulanite every human in Defiance is dead and probably and Votan who makes trouble is dead too. I suspect without Rafe there most of the miners left. Mines need infastructure to be able to work on any kind of grand scale and the need gulanite fast to stay powered and buy weapons.

 

What interesting to me is that the Omec eating other Aliens isn't necessarily evil. They may be simply filling their biological imperative. They may not see it any more evil than us eating cows. Hopefully now that they have met cow they will decide that cows are tastier than sentient beings. (I also hope the show doesn't lean on that particular parallel too hard I would hate to see a whole "Meat is Evil" metaphor get pushed into this show to hard). While Star Trek has dealt with other Aliens killing for their own needs and disregarding other species (The Vidians and Cardassians for example) they never took it this far. Its actually an interesting question. If Omec evolved to eat other sentient beings does it make them evil to do so? or are they just fulfilling their biological need? 

 

This is why I missed this show only Scifi can get into ethical question like this.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Emily Thrace

[johntfs]

I understand what they were trying to say, but let me try to better establish why it doesn't make sense.

 

Let's say the McGuffin turned an area of 100 sq. kilometers above the mines into admantium. It seems to me that there's no reason a new shaft can't be dug 102 kilometers out to gain access to the mines and all the equipment in them.

 

We basically know that there is a way to get into the mines without special technology, because Amanda, Irisa and Nolan found their way in there. So why can't they go in and resume mining operations through whatever means they got access to the mines in the first place?

 

Even assuming that the Omec have McGuffin 2.0 that lets them get access to the mines and mine gulanite and that for some reason accessing the mine the way Amanda, Irisa and Nolan did wouldn't work for industrial purposes, why trust the Omec? Why not just kill them and take the tech? Or at least, why make this a 50-50 bargain as a starting point? 

 

The implication to me was that the gulanite was effectively surrounded and perhaps even blended with this new impenetrable ore, like trying to extract milk that's been mixed into scrambled eggs..

 

Irisa and Nolan "got out" because the Omec used their special technology to penetrate through the ore, found them, let them out and then dumped them outside.

 

As for the "kill them and use the tech" idea, consider that it's quite probable that no one aside from the Omec would know how to use the tech.  Perhaps the tech is keyed to respond only to Omec.  In any case, it's probably better to at least start out with getting access to the gulanite to power/revive the town and learn about the Omec (for instance how to use their tech) as time goes on.

[Zaku]

I think it's kind of like Bitcoin, somebody just says it's worth money, & everyone believes them.

Bitcoin works because out there there are real governments with real mints that print real money,  for which the said government guarantees.

Who are printing the money that Defiance citiziens are using? With what do they guarantee the value of this money?

 

From what we could see, they should use a barter economy, not hoarding money that is useless in a post-apocalypse world!

Edited June 15, 2015 by Zaku

[shapeshifter]

Bitcoin works because out there there are real governments with real mints that print real money,  for which the said government guarantees...

Did they talk about money and markets and such in this episode? Or show money exchanging hands? (I might have missed it. Sorry if it was a key plot point.) If not, barter may be king, and, if so, gulanite might be one form of "currency."

[Zaku]

Did they talk about money and markets and such in this episode? Or show money exchanging hands? (I might have missed it. Sorry if it was a key plot point.) If not, barter may be king, and, if so, gulanite might be one form of "currency."

Ehmmmm.... the card game? The attempted robbery? The money that Meh Yewll is saving to escape from Defiance? It's clearly paper currency.

[Chicago Redshirt]

From the beginning of the show, there has been talk about "scrip." Nolan and Irisa were scavengers and found a terrasphere (a Votan energy generator of some kind), and they were talking about selling it for enough scrip to go away somewhere and to be set for life. 

 

Nolan also fought a bioman in one of the early episodes for scrip (and had Datak scumbag him out of a good portion of his winnings.)

 

In terms of the government that backs all this scrip, I assume it's the Earth Republic.

 

We have also been told that Datak has been contributing to the VC, though, so I don't know if the VC has its own form of currency or what.

[Izeinwinter]

That doesn't hold water. You can be an obligate *carnivore*. Being an obligate people eater isn't a thing that a; would ever evolve, or b: Even makes sense - meat is meat. So that is just them being assholes. I'm not saying I don't find it plausible - Humans have done things as massively evil as the dread harvest to other humans. They just dont get to blame biology for it.. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by Izeinwinter

[Captain Asshat]

Between Tommy and the McCawleys, the show has killed off all of the human POCs. 

 

I'm out.

 

But it's just introduced two more POCs. Is purple not a color? <snickers and runs off>

[maczero]

It's hard to call anyone a good guy on this show.  Between Nolan shooting a guy who looked like he was about to surrender and the Defiance crew in essence gang raping Yewell, my mind was blown by the moral flexibility of the protagonists.

 

Am I the only one who felt it was out of character for Stahma to wait so long to kill Christie?  I'm sure Stahma deeply cared (maybe even loved) Christie.  However the Stahma I remembered would've quickly recognized the odds were not in her favor and would've sacrificed Christie without hesitation and revealed little emotion (if any) over it.

 

Between Tommy and the McCawleys, the show has killed off all of the human POCs. 

 

I'm out.

I thought about that too.  Unfortunate but I'm not going to stop watching a show because it doesn't meet a minority quota. And I say that as a person of color.

 

Speaking of POCs, are the actors playing the Omecs black?

Edited June 15, 2015 by maczero

[Adira]

Speaking of POCs, are the actors playing the Omecs black?

 

Yes, they are.

[Chicago Redshirt]

OK, if we assume that somehow the McGuffin also tainted all the gulanite so it couldn't be easily extracted through normal means, then I could see the issue. However, as I understood it, the first issue was access to the mines. We saw that they were able to get access to the mines.

 

Anyway, it's a point that the show should have better explained IMO.

 

That doesn't hold water. You can be an obligate *carnivore*. Being an obligate people eater isn't a thing that a; would ever evolve, or b: Even makes sense - meat is meat. So that is just them being assholes. I'm not saying I don't find it plausible - Humans have done things as massively evil as the dread harvest to other humans. They just dont get to blame biology for it.. 

 

We don't know what or how things might evolve. And all meat is not equal. There are taste preferences, cultural issues, and allergies that might make one not able or at least, not likely, to eat this or that kind of meat.

 

We also don't yet know technically if the Omec literally feed on the meat of other sentient beings or if they consume energy like Stargate Atlantis's Wraiths or something else.

 

Am I the only one who felt it was out of character for Stahma to wait so long to kill Christie?  I'm sure Stahma deeply cared (maybe even loved) Christie.  However the Stahma I remembered would've quickly recognized the odds were not in her favor and would've sacrificed Christie without hesitation and revealed little emotion (if any) over it.

 

....

 

I thought about that too.  Unfortunate but I'm not going to stop watching a show because it doesn't meet a minority quota. And I say that as a person of color.

 

Speaking of POCs, are the actors playing the Omecs black?

 

Stahma has been known to show weakness and hesitation when it comes to people who she cares about, before overcoming it. For example, Kenya.

 

As for the Omec, both actors who play them so far are black:

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0167626/?ref_=tt_cl_t11

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0732945/?ref_=tt_cl_t12

[Izeinwinter]

Evolution isn't arbitrary - It's often surprising, precisely because it is an unthinking process, and that means it doesn't operate on human logic, but while nearly *any* trait can pop up in an individual, including things like "Born without functioning lungs" and similar immediately fatal horrors, this does most emphatically not mean that nearly any trait can become common enough to be characteristic of a race. For that to happen, the trait has to help survival and reproduction. Being an obligate people eater would a massive liability on those fronts, on account of the whole "Lunch shoots back" thing. Not to mention the fact that the dread harvest involved space ships. Any behavior you have to go into space to engage in isn't something you evolved with, because interplanetary travel was not a part of the ancestral environment for anyone. So it's either cultural, or if it's genetic, that means someone, possibly the omec themselves engineered that in. Which would still be cultural. You don't get to argue "immutable" nature after you rewrote your dna-equivalents like a deranged editor. 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Izeinwinter

[Emily Thrace]

So it's either cultural, or if it's genetic, that means someone, possibly the omec themselves engineered that in.

Except we don't know that that's the case. There may have been a natural disaster that killed off all Omec food sources on their homeworld. They may have had a population explosion that resulted in their being a food shortage.  Or it may have been an accidental result of their tampering with the genome. For instance the enhanced strength they was them tampering with their genome but unintentionally it left them with higher metabolism that necessitated eating larger prey like Casti.  My point is we don't know what happened. We've only really heard the Castithan side of the story as this show frequently points out ther are usually three sides to every story.

 

Also its spelled Omec TPTB made sure to put that onscreen.. Probably because the Olmec were an actual Central American civilization. Who while they practiced ritual bloodletting didn't seem to practice the human sacrifice of their descendents the Azteec and Maya. Which knowing these writers is probably a deliberate reference. I just hope its not meant to be clue as to why the Omec eat people. Its already pretty much the only thing people know about the Aztecs.

 

I find it interesting that people are upset about killing of the POC on the show. I've always felt like Irissa and Alak's stories are representing POC and their stories(Especially since Alak's actor is Indian). Most Alien stories have always been racial stories turned inside out. That's why I've always loved them so much. B'lanna Torres is still probably one the best portrayals  of a bi-racial women on television. Which is sad in its own was I suppose but not a reflection on Defiance..As sad as I am to see Graham Greene go I'm not heartbroken. Largely because while Rafe was a great character they never actually did anything that showed his race. Which would have been great had this show not been a pseudo western. In this setting it felt more like an elephant in the room than anything else. Ironically we may get a more authentic minority narrative from the two Omec.

[bluebonnet]

It's amazing that I still enjoy the show even though there was not a single logical reason for them to let the Omec live beyond plot purposes.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am somewhat sympathetic to Hollywood writers because there are always dilemmas involved in diverse casting.

 

Cast too few people of color, and you're going to get complaints about the lack of diversity. Cast too many, and you'll get complaints about how that. Cast them in certain roles, and you'll get complaints about stereotypes. Cast them in others, and you'll get complaints about how X character shouldn't be a minority/a woman/gay etc.

 

Personally, I don't care about losing a character like Tommy. He was pretty boring and one-dimensional. Which, unfortunately has been the case for basically every Syfy/Sci Fi black character that I can think of watching. That would include the guy on Stargate Atlantis, Leena from Warehouse 13, Dee from Battlestar Galactica. The one exception I can think of was Bill from Alphas, and that's a close call. Even very good writers don't seem to know how to flesh out these characters or how to give them fully developed plot lines.

 

In the case of the Omec, they are obviously knowledgeable and powerful, which doesn't go to an anti-black stereotype.

 

But they are thought of as aboriginal, supernatural and evil, which does. They are people eaters, which does. They are arrogant and apparently genetically stronger than most, which does. Their purpleness calls to my mind at least that one of the racial slurs against blacks is Italian for "eggplant," because some blacks apparently have a black-purplish complexion.

[Adira]

Personally, I don't care about losing a character like Tommy. He was pretty boring and one-dimensional. Which, unfortunately has been the case for basically every Syfy/Sci Fi black character that I can think of watching. That would include the guy on Stargate Atlantis, Leena from Warehouse 13, Dee from Battlestar Galactica. The one exception I can think of was Bill from Alphas, and that's a close call. Even very good writers don't seem to know how to flesh out these characters or how to give them fully developed plot lines.

 

You're forgetting Teal'c from Stargate SG-1, Zoe and Book from Firefly, Sisko from ST:DS9, Worf from ST:TNG and DS9, Tuvok from ST:Voyager, etc.  So while there aren't a TON of them, there are some good ones!

[maczero]

Largely because while Rafe was a great character they never actually did anything that showed his race. 

I don't know about that.  I recall several instances when Rafe and Christie both objected to being called "pink skinned" by Castithans.  I'm guessing pink skin is a reference to caucasians.  It was pretty clear that the McCauley's don't see themselves as white.

 

I am somewhat sympathetic to Hollywood writers because there are always dilemmas involved in diverse casting.

 

Cast too few people of color, and you're going to get complaints about the lack of diversity. Cast too many, and you'll get complaints about how that. Cast them in certain roles, and you'll get complaints about stereotypes. Cast them in others, and you'll get complaints about how X character shouldn't be a minority/a woman/gay etc.

Personally, I think shows about the future really should have more diverse casts.  I mean within a few decades, Americans of color will outnumber white Americans.  Defiance's human population should reflect this in my opinion.

 

On a related note, I find it odd that Castis generalize humans as being pink skinned.  As I stated above, people of color should outnumber whites (particularly on a worldwide scale) so it just seems off that Castithans would go with pink as the most common human skin coloring. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

You're forgetting Teal'c from Stargate SG-1, Zoe and Book from Firefly, Sisko from ST:DS9, Worf from ST:TNG and DS9, Tuvok from ST:Voyager, etc.  So while there aren't a TON of them, there are some good ones!

When I was saying Syfy/Sci Fi, I was meaning the cable channel specifically rather than sci-fi as a whole. Sorry for the ambiguity.

 

On further reflection, Allison from Eureka would also deserve a mention as a fully-realized and interesting character.

 

I would definitely agree with the mentions of Sisko, Zoe and Book as fully realized characters. But I'd say Teal'c, Worf and Tuvok aren't intended to be either of African-American descent or metaphors for African-Americans, so as great as they are, I wouldn't include them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't know about that.  I recall several instances when Rafe and Christie both objected to being called "pink skinned" by Castithans.  I'm guessing pink skin is a reference to caucasians.  It was pretty clear that the McCauley's don't see themselves as white.

 

Personally, I think shows about the future really should have more diverse casts.  I mean within a few decades, Americans of color will outnumber white Americans.  Defiance's human population should reflect this in my opinion.

 

On a related note, I find it odd that Castis generalize humans as being pink skinned.  As I stated above, people of color should outnumber whites (particularly on a worldwide scale) so it just seems off that Castithans would go with pink as the most common human skin coloring. 

I'm trying to remember how often we have seen characters of color in Defiance, and while I'm not going to claim that I have a photographic memory or anything close to it, I'm guessing it's a handful of times.

 

The only one that comes to mind was that one of Ambassador Tennety's husbands was black, IIRC. 

[myril]

On a related note, I find it odd that Castis generalize humans as being pink skinned.  As I stated above, people of color should outnumber whites (particularly on a worldwide scale) so it just seems off that Castithans would go with pink as the most common human skin coloring. 

 

Who can tell how they see the world, what spectrum of the light they see. To them we might look not that diverse in skin colors. Or is there any information about that? 

 

Or the writers gave it not much thought.

[jhlipton]

Discussion of Tommy moved to Small Talk

Edited June 16, 2015 by jhlipton

[wayne67]

It's amazing that I still enjoy the show even though there was not a single logical reason for them to let the Omec live beyond plot purposes.  

 

How about killing people based on racial stereotypes about past behaviour is immoral and illegal and as Mayor and lawkeeper (not sure if he's doing that still) it sets a terrible precedent for the community which is a hot bed of diversity and conflict already. I mean if a race was going to be held hostage by previous history every character on the show should be exterminated for their various race/species crimes. The Votans were responsible for partial genocide of the human race... Our main Castithans kill other Castithans all the time.

 

 

I'm trying to remember how often we have seen characters of color in Defiance, and while I'm not going to claim that I have a photographic memory or anything close to it, I'm guessing it's a handful of times.

 

The only one that comes to mind was that one of Ambassador Tennety's husbands was black, IIRC. 

 

Without trying to be flip aren't most of the characters of Defiance multicolored and ethnic by virtue of the storyline.

 

Evolution isn't arbitrary - It's often surprising, precisely because it is an unthinking process, and that means it doesn't operate on human logic, but while nearly *any* trait can pop up in an individual, including things like "Born without functioning lungs" and similar immediately fatal horrors, this does most emphatically not mean that nearly any trait can become common enough to be characteristic of a race. For that to happen, the trait has to help survival and reproduction. Being an obligate people eater would a massive liability on those fronts, on account of the whole "Lunch shoots back" thing. Not to mention the fact that the dread harvest involved space ships. Any behavior you have to go into space to engage in isn't something you evolved with, because interplanetary travel was not a part of the ancestral environment for anyone. So it's either cultural, or if it's genetic, that means someone, possibly the omec themselves engineered that in. Which would still be cultural. You don't get to argue "immutable" nature after you rewrote your dna-equivalents like a deranged editor. 

 

We don't know how often they need to eat people but indications say about 70 years... For all we know they evolved from predators and became omnivores similar to humans prone to violent conflicts and as result polluted their environment and decided to build space ships and tinker with their genetic structure to make themselves more durable. They go out into the stars and don't find anything nearby until every 70 years when the Votan system is close to theirs and they wage war against them because of the usual reasons, land, power, religious difference and or target practice for new techs. At the start they just do the typical stuff of raping and killing their enemies as our species has done throughout history until something happened that added eating to the menu of despicable acts that sentient creatures do to each other. It could have been anything, a particularly long and nasty siege that used up more typical food stores so they started eating their prisoners and found them highly nutritious/ satisfactory. It could have been a nuclear winter, a foreign pathogen (from one of the Votan worlds), a bioweapon gone wrong/right.

 

Predators and prey species tend to evolve by the maxim 'survival of the fittest' so prey runs faster or they get eaten by the lions so the fast survive. As for the lions if they're too slow, weak or old to run down/ kill prey they die.

 

Could be the same for the Omec, they may worship the hunt/war or they may believe in weeding out the weak and stupid with constant war. I think it's way too early to judge an entire species by 2 characters in one episode. They might change as race when they are forced to interact with the humans and Votans as equals rather than prey. Like the Votans had to do with the humans to varying success.

Edited June 16, 2015 by wayne67

[johntfs]

You're forgetting Teal'c from Stargate SG-1, Zoe and Book from Firefly, Sisko from ST:DS9, Worf from ST:TNG and DS9, Tuvok from ST:Voyager, etc.  So while there aren't a TON of them, there are some good ones!

 

It's interesting and understandable that three of your example are from the Star Trek franchise.  As I recall, the first time a white man and black woman kissed on TV was during the original Star Trek (and even then Nichols and Shatner deliberately fucked up every take in which their characters did not kiss).

[Emily Thrace]

On a related note, I find it odd that Castis generalize humans as being pink skinned.  As I stated above, people of color should outnumber whites (particularly on a worldwide scale) so it just seems off that Castithans would go with pink as the most common human skin coloring.

 

Yes but by what we know the Casti would have first dealt with the UN and high ranking government officials which probably  would be pretty white bunch. Or like a lot of racial epitaphs it doesn't really need to make sense(ie Redskin or gook). I also wonder if its not actually  Castis trying to mimic English insults and curses.(Usually a single word often archaic/slang that is spoken in a specific tone ). Especially since their own style of cursing is fairly different as "The Beast" pointed out. Although I suspect "Pinkskin" is mainly a Star Trek reference since it was used on Enterprise by the Andorian character.there.

 

Without trying to be flip aren't most of the characters of Defiance multicolored and ethnic by virtue of the storyline.

 

I've noted several background characters merchants, a couple of miners and a "night porter" or two being POC.

 

Its also possible that the demographics of Earth have actually changed a lot due to the was and terraforming. Its not impossible that some of the effects of the war hit minorities harder than whites. If only because whites would statistically speaking live in countries better able to fight back and protect their citizens from the effects of war. Although from what we've heard North America was pretty badly hit but that could be just because our characters live there.

 

 

Worf and Tuvok aren't intended to be either of African-American descent or metaphors for African-Americans, so as great as they are, I wouldn't include them.

Worf was an inter-species adoption though, which was depicted as similar to an inter-racial one. Worf's isolation and identity issues were a big part of his character. While you could debate the African aspect of his story I definitely wouldn't call him white either. Irrisa probably owes a great deal to Worf actually.

 

Also to add a few names to the list of positive three dimensional black characters. There is also Dualla from BSG, Clay and Bill Harken from Alpha's and Art from Orphan Black.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Emily Thrace

[wayne67]

I've noted several background characters merchants, a couple of miners and a "night porter" or two being POC.

 

Its also possible that the demographics of Earth have actually changed a lot due to the was and terraforming. Its not impossible that some of the effects of the war hit minorities harder than whites. If only because whites would statistically speaking live in countries better able to fight back and protect their citizens from the effects of war. Although from what we've heard North America was pretty badly hit but that could be just because our characters live there.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of humans are possibly a minority on Earth now that Votans are present on Earth. I'm not sure if they ever mentioned numbers but if I was an alien race taking over the world I'd probably attack the tech and resource rich first world nations that have low population numbers to gain a foothold on the planet before trying to tackle the other nations that may have more population and poverty issues.

 

I'm thinking the humans may be like 2/8 the population of Earth now so ALL humans are kind of minorities and all the aliens are both minorities and foreigners and unsuccessful conquerors which makes for such interesting dynamics. Hence the Alak Christie relationship and how the second generations of the conflict have such different reactions to Earth and aliens and back history.

 

I find it curious that the Omec are being held responsible for the legends about their actions every 70 years which from one view point was 5000 years ago. I would have preferred to learn more about one of the other races though maybe the Omecs will lead to more discoveries/information about the Indogene. If what that Omec guy said was true and they were created than it's possible that they were the race that developed terraforming.

[Adira]

When I was saying Syfy/Sci Fi, I was meaning the cable channel specifically rather than sci-fi as a whole. Sorry for the ambiguity.

 

On further reflection, Allison from Eureka would also deserve a mention as a fully-realized and interesting character.

 

I would definitely agree with the mentions of Sisko, Zoe and Book as fully realized characters. But I'd say Teal'c, Worf and Tuvok aren't intended to be either of African-American descent or metaphors for African-Americans, so as great as they are, I wouldn't include them.

 

Ahh, thanks for the clarification.  Didn't realize you were being specific to the SyFy channel.  :)

 

It's interesting and understandable that three of your example are from the Star Trek franchise.  As I recall, the first time a white man and black woman kissed on TV was during the original Star Trek (and even then Nichols and Shatner deliberately fucked up every take in which their characters did not kiss).

 

Yes, I noticed that too!  Star Trek has often been ahead of the game though, so no surprise there!  And I think you're correct about the inter-racial kiss happening first on Star Trek.

[shapeshifter]

...And I think you're correct about the inter-racial kiss happening first on Star Trek.

I thought it was too, but not quite: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato's_Stepchildren#Production_and_reception

I wonder if Nichelle Nichols or William Shatner had been portraying other species, if that would have made it more or less acceptable at the time.

As for the Omec being portrayed (so far) by Black actors, it makes me feel a little uncomfortable as well as confused as to whether or not there is some subtext I'm missing. On SG1, IIRC, all of the Jaffa were originally played by POC, as well as the Goa'uld. I was somewhat relieved when they introduced white actors into those roles too, but I was still distracted wondering if they did it in an effort to make it clear that those alien "races" (the word used on the show) weren't necessarily POC, or if it was just that in Vancouver the extras were mostly white, or both. On SG1, the Jaffa were slaves, which added another layer to the racial representation. Here on Defiance, in this one episode, they are showing us that the Omec are at least judged by others to be evil and/or murderous and terrifying. Does this mean they are like American inner city gang bangers? Or violent branches of Islamic fundamentalists? And, if so, will they all be portrayed by actors who look to be of African ancestry, and, if so, is that okay? Or am I reading way too much into a silly little scifi show?

[Chicago Redshirt]

How about killing people based on racial stereotypes about past behaviour is immoral and illegal and as Mayor and lawkeeper (not sure if he's doing that still) it sets a terrible precedent for the community which is a hot bed of diversity and conflict already. I mean if a race was going to be held hostage by previous history every character on the show should be exterminated for their various race/species crimes. The Votans were responsible for partial genocide of the human race... Our main Castithans kill other Castithans all the time.

...

Without trying to be flip aren't most of the characters of Defiance multicolored and ethnic by virtue of the storyline.

 

I agree that killing the specific Omec in the show based on the prejudices and mythology of the Votans would be extreme. However, killing them based on their own self-preservation and observations might be prudent, at least in the universe we're in.This is supposed to be a no-holds-barred, frontier town that has to scrap to get by. In this very episode, Nolan shoots a guy who was not at the time he shot him taking any overt hostile action on the grounds that he might soon be a threat to one person, Irisa.

 

Daughter Omec unquestionably killed a kid and is a murderer. She also battered both Nolan and Irisa and was well on the way to beating the crap out of both of them too. 

 

Daddy Omec demands her immediate release and threatens to destroy the town if he doesn't get what he wants.

 

At the end, both get to walk away scott free, with no one even so much as investigating where they are based out of or what they are up to. 

 

Also to add a few names to the list of positive three dimensional black characters. There is also Dualla from BSG, Clay and Bill Harken from Alpha's and Art from Orphan Black.

 

Not to protract this too long, but I would say that Dee was pretty darn boring overall, and did not have much agency. Her entire existence seemed to consist of following Adama's orders, having a flirtation with Billy and then a marriage to Lee. Her characterization is in fairly sharp contrast with basically every other character on BSG seeming to have their own personality, agenda, hopes and dreams IMO.

 

I forgot about Clay, but I don't know if I would count him because he's not a series regular.

 

Art from Orphan Black's a good character, but it's not a Syfy/Sci-Fi show.  

Edited June 17, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[maczero]

Yes but by what we know the Casti would have first dealt with the UN and high ranking government officials which probably  would be pretty white bunch. 

Actually, this does make a lot of sense.  I'll go with it.

[wayne67]

I agree that killing the specific Omec in the show based on the prejudices and mythology of the Votans would be extreme. However, killing them based on their own self-preservation and observations might be prudent, at least in the universe we're in.This is supposed to be a no-holds-barred, frontier town that has to scrap to get by. In this very episode, Nolan shoots a guy who was not at the time he shot him taking any overt hostile action on the grounds that he might soon be a threat to one person, Irisa.

 

Daughter Omec unquestionably killed a kid and is a murderer. She also battered both Nolan and Irisa and was well on the way to beating the crap out of both of them too. 

 

Daddy Omec demands her immediate release and threatens to destroy the town if he doesn't get what he wants.

 

At the end, both get to walk away scott free, with no one even so much as investigating where they are based out of or what they are up to. 

 

The guy Nolan shot had previously organised a lynch mob to hang an injured female incapable of defending herself at the time. Then after the mob was being dispersed he shot up a doctors office with no clear lines of sight peppering the place with bullets endangering everyone there. Then he had a gun pointed at Irisa...

 

As for the Omec daughter that stupid kid kept poking her with a sharp metal thing over and over again while she was hurt, chained to a tiny room and it could be argued that it was self defense.

 

As for the Omec father threatening the town. The Mayor was holding his injured daughter hostage and refused to disclose her location until he provided them with a good deal on gualanite extraction. He had asked for his daughter's wherabouts several times without either of them listening to him so he was probably just trying to get them to shut up and answer his one question before answering dozens of theirs.

 

From what he said if they had killed the two Omec they would have been responsible for a genocide of a species. Also regardless of their possible crimes they managed to reopen the deserted mines and have a ship in orbit. Killing them would be premature for several reasons A) they may have better tech in their ships B) if more Omec show up they might not take kindly to having one of their members shot. C) There is no indication that the Omec are defenseless and will be taken down without massive collateral damage. D) The mining tech may be DNA, retina or password protected or otherwise encrypted which may limit their access to the tech after their death E) The Omec may have useful tech, information or combat experience that may come in handy to the scrappy mining town.

 

Nolan and Irisa have murdered tonnes of people and they get to roam around the town scot free too so it's not like there isn't precedent. Nolan didn't tolerate peacekeeper woman beating on Irisa for murdering Tommy because of her extenuating biological imperatives.

[bluebonnet]

The mines were easily mined for years before the Omec came around.  I'm not sure why an argument would be made that they couldn't mine without the Omec when that's exactly what they've previously done.  There was zero reason to send the Omec off to the mines, on their own, except for plot.  

[raven]

 

As for the Omec daughter that stupid kid kept poking her with a sharp metal thing over and over again while she was hurt, chained to a tiny room and it could be argued that it was self defense.

I don't think so.  She had room to move away from the window and she was chained up because she attacked people; the kid just pissed her off.  She's vicious and dangerous and proved it by killing the kid, who was being an annoying brat but didn't deserve to be murdered.  I have more sypmathy for the father going after her (he was right, there'll be no consequences to her for what she did) then for anything that happened to either Omec.  My opinion is probably colored since I know they don't have good/peaceful intentions; I think the whole scenario was set up by the show/writers to show how desperate they are in Defiance.

 

 

There was zero reason to send the Omec off to the mines, on their own, except for plot.

Yes, this.  The way I understood it, Defiance miners can get into the mines now because of the Omec, so why cater to them?  I mentioned before, they were going out of their way to accomodate them I thought.  Nolan has no qualms about killing and Amanda is all about saving the town.  Why put Doc Yewll through that when they didn't have to, the show didn't make it seem they were being compassionate, they were making it seem like they needed the Omec.

[Makenna]

The mines were easily mined for years before the Omec came around.  I'm not sure why an argument would be made that they couldn't mine without the Omec when that's exactly what they've previously done.  There was zero reason to send the Omec off to the mines, on their own, except for plot.  

Amanda did mention at the beginning of the episode that everyone who had money or a valuable trade had already left Defiance (I'm sure this could include any number of miners) so a large percentage of them may have already left town. Also, apparently a couple of unemployed miners attacked the NeedWant earlier and were shot and injured for their misdeeds so that's also lowering the miners' workforce at the moment. 

 

The whole thing this episode was that they needed the Gualanite NOW because the reserves were super low and the stasis net was down (and there was imminent threat of the V.C. coming their way) so they had to get it back up ASAP. There was a time crunch and the Omec seemed to have a substantial amount already ready for use so of course they seemed like the best option.

 

Who knows? Maybe next episode after things have calmed down for a minute there'll be a discussion of whether the town can mine successfully on their own or if they still need the Omec to do the heavy lifting.  

[jhlipton]

As for the Omec being portrayed (so far) by Black actors, it makes me feel a little uncomfortable as well as confused as to whether or not there is some subtext I'm missing.

As I recall, many of the post-movie Klingons on Star Trek were played by POC (Michael Dorn chief among them) simply because it was easier to get the dark make-up on. The same thing may be going on with the Omec -- they wanted a darker race of aliens, and people with darker skin would be easier to portray them.

[shapeshifter]

As I recall, many of the post-movie Klingons on Star Trek were played by POC (Michael Dorn chief among them) simply because it was easier to get the dark make-up on. The same thing may be going on with the Omec -- they wanted a darker race of aliens, and people with darker skin would be easier to portray them.

That's very interesting, but, dear jhlipton, it also makes me even more uncomfortable/confused wondering if the Omec are supposed to be dark in direct (and literal) contrast to the Castis, and, if so, what does that mean? Are the writers trying to get viewers to examine their own prejudices, and if so, to what end? Or are my life long study of art composition (especially chiaroscuro) and my undergrad degree in sociology making me think too much about this? And would they have created a race with different characteristics (or will they) if the current brouhaha about the white woman who thought she could become black had already been in the news when they wrote this season? Okay. I'll stop now, and not drink anything stronger than decaf for the next month.

[jhlipton]

 Okay. I'll stop now, and not drink anything stronger than decaf for the next month.

 

Please don't!!!!

[maczero]

That's very interesting, but, dear jhlipton, it also makes me even more uncomfortable/confused wondering if the Omec are supposed to be dark in direct (and literal) contrast to the Castis, and, if so, what does that mean?

I could see be offended if the Castis  were portrayed as a benevolent race while the Omecs were considered demonic.  However aspects of Casti culture would be considered barbaric by most modern humans.  This includes the blatant sexism and misogyny.  I've also noted that many Castis look down on the other Votan races.  Then there's the organized criminal element among the Castis.  The way I see it, Castithans would probably be just as bad as the Omecs if they had the same physical might and technology. 

Edited June 18, 2015 by maczero

[Chicago Redshirt]

The guy Nolan shot had previously organised a lynch mob to hang an injured female incapable of defending herself at the time. Then after the mob was being dispersed he shot up a doctors office with no clear lines of sight peppering the place with bullets endangering everyone there. Then he had a gun pointed at Irisa...

 

As for the Omec daughter that stupid kid kept poking her with a sharp metal thing over and over again while she was hurt, chained to a tiny room and it could be argued that it was self defense.

 

As for the Omec father threatening the town. The Mayor was holding his injured daughter hostage and refused to disclose her location until he provided them with a good deal on gualanite extraction. He had asked for his daughter's wherabouts several times without either of them listening to him so he was probably just trying to get them to shut up and answer his one question before answering dozens of theirs.

 

From what he said if they had killed the two Omec they would have been responsible for a genocide of a species. Also regardless of their possible crimes they managed to reopen the deserted mines and have a ship in orbit. Killing them would be premature for several reasons A) they may have better tech in their ships B) if more Omec show up they might not take kindly to having one of their members shot. C) There is no indication that the Omec are defenseless and will be taken down without massive collateral damage. D) The mining tech may be DNA, retina or password protected or otherwise encrypted which may limit their access to the tech after their death E) The Omec may have useful tech, information or combat experience that may come in handy to the scrappy mining town.

 

Nolan and Irisa have murdered tonnes of people and they get to roam around the town scot free too so it's not like there isn't precedent. Nolan didn't tolerate peacekeeper woman beating on Irisa for murdering Tommy because of her extenuating biological imperatives.

The Casti who was doing all this was targeting Daughter Omec, albeit poorly. It could be Irisa was right that he posed no threat to her. It could be that Nolan's right and he did. I just find it hard to reconcile that person who was scared and not intentionally targeting innocent people has to be killed, while person who actually killed someone is released.

 

The metal rod, as far as we saw, never actually hit Daughter Omec. Even assuming it had, Daughter Omec was able to grab it and take it away from Casti Kid. No more threat to Daughter Omec. Therefore, self-defense could not possibly apply. By killing annoying Casti kid at that point, she was at least guilty of manslaughter, but let's call it murder.

 

Nolan and Irisa have killed lots of people, sure. But usually in circumstances that would not rise to murder (i.e. during war time, in self-defense/defense of others, or when Irisa was not in her right mind). I can't think of a single time when either of them was in full possession of their faculties and killed someone without justification that we've seen.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[tennisgurl]

Damn, so I picked up a weird time to pick this show up. I binged to make it up this far, and now the whole show has changed. 

[jhlipton]

I just find it hard to reconcile that person who was scared and not intentionally targeting innocent people has to be killed, while person who actually killed someone is released.

The bookseller was threatening Irissa. Daughter Omec was threatening other but not Irissa. That's all the reasoning Nolan applies. And he is judge, jury and executioner.

[Chicago Redshirt]

True, threatening or harming Irisa is a capital crime in Defiance, according to Nolan. Thankfully, Berlin was able to successfully employ the "I used to chup you and it's my first offense" defense. 

[wayne67]

The Casti who was doing all this was targeting Daughter Omec, albeit poorly. It could be Irisa was right that he posed no threat to her. It could be that Nolan's right and he did. I just find it hard to reconcile that person who was scared and not intentionally targeting innocent people has to be killed, while person who actually killed someone is released.

 

The metal rod, as far as we saw, never actually hit Daughter Omec. Even assuming it had, Daughter Omec was able to grab it and take it away from Casti Kid. No more threat to Daughter Omec. Therefore, self-defense could not possibly apply. By killing annoying Casti kid at that point, she was at least guilty of manslaughter, but let's call it murder.

 

Nolan and Irisa have killed lots of people, sure. But usually in circumstances that would not rise to murder (i.e. during war time, in self-defense/defense of others, or when Irisa was not in her right mind). I can't think of a single time when either of them was in full possession of their faculties and killed someone without justification that we've seen.

 

I'm not sure where to start with my reply...

 

I'm not saying the Omecs are great people but Book Seller wanted the Omec's to die (as far as I can recall) based on no information and with no effort to convince Defiance authorities about a trial. He instead made a half assed attempt to get them to kill them because of his grief and anger. Then rabble roused a lynch mob which was then dispersed after creating a noose to murder someone already potentially bleeding to death anyway. Then after that failed he went on a shooting spree without any apparent concern for collateral damage. He was essentially a loose cannon.

 

Nolan by your own argument may not have been justified in that shooting that one guy. Nolan also has a nickname as No Man for murdering everyone in sight. There was also murdering Irissa's parents and basically everyone in that vicinity which is overkill.

 

Irissa apparently gets a free pass on murdering a city because she wasn't in her right mind but she didn't make much of an effort to try and get rid of the thing once it gave her what she wanted.

 

We don't know if that boy was poking her successfully or not but it seems he was trying to provoke a response and he got one... Daughter Omec may have overreacted to the provocation but we don't know if it was her intent to kill the boy or merely to retaliate with poking of her own. Noone asked for her side of the story before the lynch mob got their hands on her.

 

Frankly Bookseller and son got the Darwin award for too dumb to live because after making such a big deal about how dangerous and evil the Omec were, the son goes and pokes one (or tries to) while it's cornered, caged and injured (not usually the situation that results in calm measured responses to provocation) and the father tries to murder an injured one twice seemingly forgetting there is more than one and they may want retribution.

 

I'd agree that the Omec should probably be imprisoned and or held for questioning but how exactly would they manage that ? They could try and kill them but what happens to the town if they're unsuccessful they've added another Votan race to their lists of hazards including the Voulge and the Votan Collective and gained nothing from it.  It's far better to keep them close and relatively happy, find out everything they know and have and if they have any weakness THEN take whatever action seems appropriate then. Rushing in half assed with no plan for Justice is foolhardy and problematic for the town if they fail. Defiance doesn't need more enemies at the moment, they need all the allies they can get even if they're omnivorous megalomaniacs. It wouldn't be the first time they made peace with a race trying to conquer and or eat them...

Edited June 19, 2015 by wayne67

[Chicago Redshirt]

"Murder" and "kill" are not always the same thing. You can kill with legally recognized justifications. (I realize applying our commonly used definitions of what is and is not justified to a fictional universe is not always going to be on fours). Killing with justification is not murder.

 

The killings that Nolan did to earn the nickname No-Man Nolan were during the Pale Wars. Generally speaking, killing as a soldier is not murder. Killing in self-defense or defense of another, even if that belief is mistaken, is not murder. I can't remember off the top enough of the situation where Nolan took Irisa away from her parents, but that's likely not murder.

 

It seems to me that Irisa spent a lot of time trying to fight off the AI. She even tried committing suicide, but it just resurrected her.

 

I think we can pretty safely say that Casti Kid did not actually poke Daughter Omec. I think we can also pretty safely say that considering the force that was used and the placement of the rod in Casti Kid's eye, Daughter Omec intended to inflict serious injury on Casti Kid.

 

Giving way to practical concerns as to why Daughter Omec shouldn't be held or face trial for murder (we need the gulanite and we don't want to risk Daddy Omec's being able to make good on his threat to destroy the town) I guess is understandable, if disappointing. I just wish that they explicitly discussed that, and had some remorse that they are making a Faustian bargain for this gulanite. 

[CletusMusashi]

I'm a little late to the race debate, but it's good to see a few others were annoyed by the Omec.

 

I mean, what do we actually know about them, that makes them different from the other aliens that we've seen?

 

1. They are a brutal warrior race, obsessed with conquest and slaughter.

2. They are black people. Most scenes are darkly enough lit that on many screens the purple barely shows.

and

3. They wear loose-fitting clothing and wraps around their heads.

 

So, basically, the new villains are gratuitously evil black folk wearing turbans.

 

C.S. Lewis called. He wants his racial views back.

Edited June 19, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Wynterwolf]

Finally got a chance to watch the eps, and the discussions of "kill" vs "murder", race, stereotypes, culture, etc has been interesting.  I've always gotten a strong sense that this world is dystopian enough that particularly the kill vs murder question is much different within the show's context, even for those characters who are old enough to remember a 'before'.  Basically you evolve or die, and it takes power to create justice, which is something that is in short supply here. 

 

All the characters that have survived have a strong, innate sense of self-preservation, even when protecting each other, and what I found really interesting was that the Casti boy showed a distinct and deliberate lack of this.  In his arrogance, he didn't even show the most basic caution around the Omec girl, even after everyone around him was afraid.  I'm not in any way saying that he deserved to be killed for what he did, but as the scene played out, it's what I was expecting to happen (along with his father being the only one really upset by it).  The first ep in particular was about survival, and the Casti boy didn't have what it takes in this world to survive.  My sense was that if he hadn't been killed in this incidence, he still wouldn't have been long for this world.  Definitely an interesting start to the season.  

[Clanstarling]

I would have been fine with Stahma sussing that the baby was hidden there and the looks exchanged with Christie enough of a mutual agreement that Christie was willing to give her life to save the baby. But I guess they needed to make it a little more obvious, so Stahma sees something the VC guys don't. We the audience hear the baby cry right after everyone leaves, to validate Christie's sacrifice.

A little late to the game here, but that was my take on it (mutual agreement). I was shocked that the whole family (not counting Ms. Crazypants Pilar, who's new to the game) was killed. I like being shocked (big George RR Martin fan), so I'm prepared to wait and see how it goes. Hopefully they'll add new human characters who are interesting.

 

It's weird that they wrote Pottinger out like that, after him finally getting Amanda in the closing montage of the last season, while she still didn't know everything he'd done. As obsessed as he was, there's no way he would have just left town. That was more the kind of antagonist I found interesting -- not an outright enemy, but doing some awful stuff and some good stuff, and you couldn't know where you stood.

The actor who plays him is currently in a British show called Cucumber - about Gay Manchester (where he's from). So perhaps he chose to leave the show and go home. Even so, there are many ways the writers can address the dangling plot line. They didn't mention Mercado at all. There's a lot of shorthand in a series premiere, especially when there's a time jump. Lots to pack in.

 

I may be alone in liking the gentler Irisa. I thought her empathy with the bookseller was a terrific addition to this prickly character. The incident in the woods where she froze - not so much.

 

What I liked (if I can use that word) about Doc's flaying was that it was arguably the right thing to do (and karmic) while also being a horrible, monstrous thing to do that made me think badly of Nolan and Amanda. Not so much moral ambiguity as all things at once.

 

With all the talk of the Omecs eating the Votans (and presumably the humans, eventually), did anyone else cringe at Rahm Tak eating human ears as an appetizer? I kind of like Lee in this role, but I do hope he tones it down just a little.

[Ottis]

I find it interesting that people are upset about killing of the POC on the show.

 

 

This has become A Thing here and on other boards. There is also a sizeable group of viewers that react to what they see as unnecessray violence toward women (they don't care if it is toward men) and/or female characters perceived as weaker/less important than men (even in settings that mirror eras in our history when that was the case, i.e. Middle Ages). I've seen it here, Hell in Wheels, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and on and on.

 

Honestly, it gets tiring at times. especially in a sci-fi setting, when you can have actors of various colors playing aliens who do not line up with what we view as minorities in the real world.

 

I'm digging the Omec, though I don't know what to make of their goals. I fear they will make friends with Defiance and somehow become allies. Which seems like a stretch at this stage but I'm not sure why else they have appeared.

 

With all the talk of the Omecs eating the Votans (and presumably the humans, eventually), did anyone else cringe at Rahm Tak eating human ears as an appetizer? I kind of like Lee in this role, but I do hope he tones it down just a little.

 

 

Did he actually take a bite? I don't remember if he did, though it appeared he would. I was trying to figure out if he viewed the ears as trophies to be dried out or was in fact going to eat them. If the latter, have we seen anywhere in the show that eating human ears is a delicacy for that race?

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ottis

[maczero]

Did he actually take a bite? I don't remember if he did, though it appeared he would. I was trying to figure out if he viewed the ears as trophies to be dried out or was in fact going to eat them. If the latter, have we seen anywhere in the show that eating human ears is a delicacy for that race?

Considering that Datak looked disturbed when he saw what was on the plate, I'm going to say that eating ears is not normal for Castis.

[Clanstarling]

This has become A Thing here and on other boards. There is also a sizeable group of viewers that react to what they see as unnecessray violence toward women (they don't care if it is toward men) and/or female characters perceived as weaker/less important than men (even in settings that mirror eras in our history when that was the case, i.e. Middle Ages). I've seen it here, Hell in Wheels, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and on and on.

 

Honestly, it gets tiring at times. especially in a sci-fi setting, when you can have actors of various colors playing aliens who do not line up with what we view as minorities in the real world.

 

I'm digging the Omec, though I don't know what to make of their goals. I fear they will make friends with Defiance and somehow become allies. Which seems like a stretch at this stage but I'm not sure why else they have appeared.

 

 

Did he actually take a bite? I don't remember if he did, though it appeared he would. I was trying to figure out if he viewed the ears as trophies to be dried out or was in fact going to eat them. If the latter, have we seen anywhere in the show that eating human ears is a delicacy for that race?

I don't think he took a bite but the way it was filmed made me think we were meant to believe he was eating the ears. Though they'd be a bit chewy...

[Shanna Marie]

The actor who plays him is currently in a British show called Cucumber - about Gay Manchester (where he's from). So perhaps he chose to leave the show and go home. Even so, there are many ways the writers can address the dangling plot line.

It's good for him, I suppose, if he has another role closer to home (though I'm selfish and want him on my TV screen). But the way they'd established Pottinger and his obsession with Amanda, I figured that for him to be out of the picture, either the E-Rep had to drug him, tie him up, and lock him in the trunk when they bugged out (and he's currently trudging through the snow to get back to Defiance from wherever they went, once he gnawed through the bindings and escaped), or he's still in town and living in her attic, with lots of spy holes to watch her.  He's not exactly the "Oh well, we'll always have Paris, but it's time to move on" kind of guy.