S01.E12: The Old Ma'am And The C

[Julia]

If they do one, as opposed to just a limited check for any bad info.  Even then, I think my last credit report only reported payments going back 7 years, though I've definitely had credit longer than that.  A 26 year old could have a credit history that long easy.

 

For a corporate job in NY? They did one. And given Liza's husband's hijinks, there would be red flags all over the place. 

[apgold]

I think Josh caved too easily but since Nico T is signed for Season 2, it wasn't too surprising.  I can't buy them as a long term couple yet, but he's still hot, lol.

 

Martha Plimpton is awesome, even when she's playing an obnoxious character (see Patti Nyholm on The Good Wife) you have to love her. 

 

Still it was good to see Liza's cunning side when she counter-blackmailed Cheryl.  Liza is earnest but she's not a pushover.

 

I am interested to see what season 2 holds.  As much as the show's premise is full of holes, I like the chemistry of the cast, the NY locations, the fashions and of course Sutton holding it all together.

Edited June 11, 2015 by apgold

[goldenpuppy]

I thought the finale was pretty good.   I think the actors are good, the writing is good, and I like he location.  NYC is always fun in movies and tv shows.

 

I enjoy the show, but still feel like it's the anti-feminist and anti-age show.  It's like the writers have issues with women over the age of 30, especially those who have high power careers.   Women on this show over the age of 30, except for Liza, who pretend she is 26, are all portrayed in what I think are insulting ways. The suburban housewives are out of touch with everything, they might be nice, but they  are clueless to all things outside of their little suburb.  They barely can work their cell phones, and also sit around like airheads in their book clubs. But, as badly as they are protrayed they are not written as monsters.

 

The women over 30 who dared  not give up their careers to be stay at home moms, and or  -gasp-  are not married or in a relationship, are straight, are portrayed as nasty, petty, jealous, and also plain mean to anyone who is younger.  

 

As much as I like the show, I think the writers have an issue with women not being young, doe-eyed,  naive girls.  All of  the young characters are not portrayed that well, especially the guys, but they are not portrayed like mean witch, cartoon characters like the older women who are not married, or have high powered jobs.

 

Beyond the horrible writing for the women over 40, besides Liza, they are all looking way older than their age, with outdated styles, that are just not accurate of this era for women.  I think the reason for this is that they need to make Liza look 26 in contrast, and since she doesn't really look 26, they make everyone who is over 35 look like a 1950's house wife with a lot of bad hair, bad outfits and wrinkles.  

Edited June 11, 2015 by goldenpuppy

[dubbel zout]

The young women aren't being portrayed very well, IMO. Kelsey slept with one of her authors, and Lauren dosed her friends.

[Julia]

I think the only completely admirable character in all of this is the middle-aged lesbian, and she also seems to be the only woman who seems to be disinterestedly kind to women.

 

Of course, she's Debbie Mazar, which prejudices me on her behalf.

[orangekit]

No, but the credit history you have to give them permission to run a check on with the social security number when you apply for the job is going to be for an older person.

In New York State every employer has new employees fill out a w4 form. They must also make a copy of two forms of legal ID, one must be a passport or a social security card. So, Liza would have committed a serious crime if she had provided false federal identification.

The young women aren't being portrayed very well, IMO. Kelsey slept with one of her authors, and Lauren dosed her friends.

True, and neither are the young men, but they are not like evil monsters. No one is portrayed and mean and intentionally cruel except middle aged, straight women with careers.

[Julia]

In New York State every employer has new employees fill out a w4 form. They must also make a copy of two forms of legal ID, one must be a passport or a social security card. So, Liza would have committed a serious crime if she had provided false federal identification.

It's a SS card and one form of federal ID with a picture.

True, and neither are the young men, but they are not like evil monsters. No one is portrayed and mean and intentionally cruel except middle aged, straight women with careers.

I thought the conversation Kelsey and her friend, who are gainfully employed and still living off her friend's parents, had about killing themselves before they turned forty and became pathetic and sexless and useless [like her friend's mom presumably was ten years or so ago] was pretty nasty.

[allonsyalice]

I was kind of disappointed with the finale, to be fully honest. Like it was good. I've been trying to think of a good washboard joke since we first saw josh's band. seriously why is he not just playing his washboard abs (see? weak.) I did enjoy seeing Martha Plimpton, great actress, and I love how Liza just blackmailed her back.

But, at the same time, there are so many things left unanswered from last ep. like what about the book doctoring gig? Why was Charles smiling when he told Liza she didn't get the gig. What was that about?

I did love seeing Sutton's old photos, that was a cute touch. FWIW, i'm not sure she sent any of those texts we saw her typing. I think she cancelled them all and did the slideshow instead. 

I'm excited to see how Kaitlyn will react to all facets of Liza's new 26 year old life, but most of all Josh. 

[orangekit]

I thought the conversation Kelsey and her friend, who are gainfully employed and still living off her friend's parents, had about killing themselves before they turned forty and became pathetic and sexless and useless [like her friend's mom presumably was ten years or so ago] was pretty nasty. it was pretty nasty, but then again, the writers of the show seems to feel the same way about women who are 40!

[Snarklepuss]

I thought the conversation Kelsey and her friend, who are gainfully employed and still living off her friend's parents, had about killing themselves before they turned forty and became pathetic and sexless and useless [like her friend's mom presumably was ten years or so ago] was pretty nasty.

 

I thought it was pretty nasty too but like everything that the young'ns do on this show it's done with an attitude of "We're young and cool so we can say anything we want and it's still OK".  As if it's not nasty when they say it, it's just cool and true.  Only us older people can be nasty because doncha know we're all just stupid???

Edited June 12, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

Referring to the PTV article, I don't think Liza used a false SSN.  At least in my experience, the SSN is just written down on the paperwork for payroll and taxes, its not like the HR person is going to automatically know that the SSN is for an "older" person.  And I presume that Liza only uses the false driver's license to show HR and maybe friends, but keeps her real license tucked away for anything official.

 

I agree with you about the SS card.  She probably could use her own and no one would know her age because of it.  But regarding the driver's license - I'm presuming she wouldn't show her real license to HR because they would see her real date of birth.  If she presented the fake one to HR when she got the job she could be charged with fraud and lying on her job application, plus in NY state it's at least a misdemeanor to be in possession of a fake driver's license.  In some states it's a felony!  She would also have had to produce a copy of her birth certificate when she got hired.  This is being required even more in recent years to prove to employers that you are who you say you are.  I know I have had to do that at all my jobs going back at least 20 years.  And of course producing a fake one would be breaking the law and might even involve jail time.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[tennisgurl]

Liza is lucky that Josh is such a nice guy. Other people might have flipped out, and put the whole story online. Now THAT might have screwed her life up. 

 

I liked the finale, even if it was a little anti-climatic. The only people who know the truth now are Josh and his roomates, who I don't blame Josh for telling. He would probably want to vent a little bit, and he has a right to. 

 

I cant decide if its middle ages women who are portrayed poorly, or 20 something women. The middle aged women are either mean career women, or sheltered suburbanites, while the younger women are shallow, social media obsessed sexoholics, or passive aggressive hipsters. It seems like the show wants to make fun of both sides, but does show some sympathetic sides as well. The book club women all turned out to be quite open to Liza coming back, and Kelsey and her friends are loyal and supportive friends, for the most part. I really cant decide who`s "side" gets the best treatment. 

 

This was something of a surprise for me, I enjoyed this a lot. Its fun to watch an older perspective on 20 somethings, which I am. I`m glad not many people know the truth, so the show can continue. 

[Hanahope]

She would also have had to produce a copy of her birth certificate when she got hired.  This is being required even more in recent years to prove to employers that you are who you say you are.  I know I have had to do that at all my jobs going back at least 20 years.

 

Seriously?  I have never had to do this and I've gone through quite a few jobs in the past 20 years.  Would they now require to see proof of all my name changes too?  Marriage licenses, divorce papers, etc.  I think that's starting to get a bit overly intrusive.  It was hard enough to track down copies of all those documents again when I got married a second time.

 

I haven't applied for a new job in 7 years, so maybe things have changed, but I never had to do more than have the HR person photocopy my driver's license and SS card.  And that's at many law firms. 

 

It's a SS card and one form of federal ID with a picture.

 

 

Not everyone has a passport.  If they have to show two "federal gov't" documents, what do they do?

[dubbel zout]

Not federal, but a government ID, so a driver's license will work, too.

[Julia]

Not federal, but a government ID, so a driver's license will work, too.

 

Yes, sorry, that's true. 

[Bort]

Not federal, but a government ID, so a driver's license will work, too.

Or, if you have a passport, just that alone is sufficient. I lost my social security card in 1995 and have used the passport as proof of identity ever since. Nobody ever asks for the social security card once I break out the passport.

[HotForBacon]

I was unimpressed by the finale mainly because too much of it focused on Josh. He's cute but I felt I was more invested in her professional life than her love/sex life.

 

I just accepted an offer for a job and had to fill out a bunch of things for the background check and I thought of this show. I had to put in my date of birth at least 5 times. They don't do background checks in NYC? I'm in Colorado so I don't know.

Edited June 13, 2015 by HotForBacon

[methodwriter85]

I just accepted an offer for a job and had to fill out a bunch of things for the background check and I thought of this show. I had to put in my date of birth at least 5 times. They don't do background checks in NYC? I'm in Colorado so I don't know.

 

You are killing my fantasy of telling everybody I was born in 1990 when I was really born in 1985. I even had a fake life make up- class of '08 4Ever, y'all!

 

No, seriously though, has anybody ever thought about shaving their age? I do feel like I could get away with it....but I wouldn't try 14 years.

 

I feel like the only people who don't feel like caricatures are Liza, Josh, and Debi Mazer. Both the 40-something women and the 20-something women have some pretty nasty aspects to them. But I don't expect realistic relationships or depictions of womanhood from Darren Star shows.

[dubbel zout]

It's entirely possible that Liza filled out the employment forms honestly but let Diana et al think she's 26. HR is in charge of that stuff, not your boss, and they aren't supposed to give out information in your file without a proven need. Age certainly isn't one in this instance. 

 

At any rate, this is a TV show, not a documentary. You have to hand wave a bunch of stuff for the premise to work.

[AmyLynn70]

Hello!  There's been a lot of discussion about the documents you need to provide when hired and the background check.  HR Nerd here to help answer some of those questions.

 

I did something similar to the character when I was 38.  I lost my job, there was a recession and no one is hiring a recruiter in a recession.  I had 15 years of professional work experience and decided to take a step back and try to get an HR Assistant/HR Coordinator job to get more generalist experience which I was lacking.  When I had all 15 years on my resume, no calls.  As soon as I cut off 10 years and only had the last 5 the calls started coming in and I got a job as a HR Coordinator. I didn't have to lie about my age, and I got the job on my merits, not my age.  I included my education, but you never put the year of graduation on your resume - it's not supposed to happen, but it open the applicant up for age discrimination.  I don't remember what Liza's resume looked like, but not including graduation year on your resume and omitting information is not lying - a resume is not a legal document.

 

The application is a legal document and that is where using a different graduation date (if asked on the application) could get her fired - falsification of a legal document.  However, processes are put in place now to protect candidates from potential age discrimination,  if the application asked for graduation date, anyone outside of HR would not be privy to that information.

 

As for the documents.  You present ID for your I9 and that is done by HR.  There are very few jobs (such as a CDL driver) where there is a business reason for the manager to see the actual license.  For an assistant position - there is no business reason.  Those documents would be presented on the first day and HR has ownership of them.  Personnel files are set up so that no information about protected class (age, race, sex, national origin, religion for example) can be viewed by the manager or anyone outside of HR. 

 

As for a Background check - those are run by HR and should be run post offer.  most checks are generated by the SSN, not the driver's license.  The SSN check is for eligibility to work in the US (nothing about age comes up in the SSN) and any convictions and usually only 7 years back.  Because of new employment discrimination laws, not as many credit checks are done.  If they are done it should only be job related (ie the driver for the Brinks money truck) but an assistant having bad credit is not job related and should not be used in determining employment for the job. Lastly, ONLY HR sees the credit and background check.  So again, the only issue I can see up to this point is if she put the wrong graduation date on her application and the check came back otherwise. 

If HR was told by the hiring manager - we have a great young candidate, she's about 26 and if it comes back from the BG check or I9 that she is not and there are no "policies" violated, then Liza did nothing wrong.  HR cannot come back to the hiring manager and say - 26?  I saw her DL and she's 40, born in 1975.  The HR Manager would be in BIG trouble and Liza would have a good lawsuit on her hands, especially f she was terminated post offer as a result of a protected class status.

 

OK, probably more information that you wanted, but if she had not created a fake ID, the character really did nothing wrong that would warrant termination.  Leading people to believe you are younger than you are is not grounds for termination.  (falsifying an application with incorrect dates will).  It just bothers me that more employees don't understand their employment rights. 

 

 

[dubbel zout]

Thank you for that information, AmyLynn70.

 

you never put the year of graduation on your resume

 

But in some ways, you can't win with the dates business. I was looking for work recently and left off dates and was dinged for it. It was clear when I got to the interview that I was no spring chicken, even if I don't look my age (early fifties). 

 

This is all IRL, of course, not TVLand (heh).

 

It just bothers me that more employees don't understand their employment rights.

 

If you live in a right-to-work state, as I do, your employment rights aren't so great to begin with. And suing can brand you as a troublemaker, even if you're well within your rights to sue.

 

For a freelance job that had nothing to do with money or any kind of sensitive information, I had to sign a document saying I would allow a background check. I didn't want to do it, because there was absolutely no reason for it given the job I'd be doing, and I kicked up a bit of a fuss. I ended up seeing the head of HR, and when she saw she said, "Oh, you're the agitator." I was told if I didn't sign the form, it would send up a red flag—I must have something to hide if I don't want someone nosing around—and that I shouldn't worry in the first place, because the company had to notify me in writing that they were initiating a check in the first place. 

 

Well, neither option mollified me, but I ended up signing the stupid thing because they wouldn't hire me without it. I'm kind of surprised they didn't start a check, but I guess they had bigger fish to fry.

Edited June 13, 2015 by dubbel zout

[marmalade]

I like the actors, the setting and the show can be fun, but I also find the writings a sad statement about where society is right now. Sitting Foster reminds me of a modern day Mary Tyler Moore, I really like her. I like her roommate a lot, the actress is great!

But when I watched reruns of the old Mary Tyler Moore show, and greased why a big deal it was at the time for a single woman to be 30 and single, and she never married, I thought of how far we've gone backwards! Even Sex And The City didn't degrade the characters who were all different personalities, and it was one of TV first shows to show women being sexual without being portrayed as slutty or bad.

This show , sadly is just redoing old sad stereotypes. Women over 40 who are career women and not married, or chose to not stay home with kids, are jealous, old looking, frumpy, and mean to anyone younger. Housewives are bimbos, but not mean. Younger people are idiots, but not mean.

The message this show is sending is that smart, middle aged career women are just evil and are out to hurt younger women.

No one is portrayed well , but the carer woman who is older is the cartoon witch from a bad Disney movie! Such a sad thing to see on 2015! We've gone a long way - backwards!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

She would also have had to produce a copy of her birth certificate when she got hired. This is being required even more in recent years to prove to employers that you are who you say you are. I know I have had to do that at all my jobs going back at least 20 years.

I've never had to show my birth certificate when I've been hired for any of my jobs. The only time I had to show my birth certificate was when I got my driver's license in high school, when I got a new passport, and when I had to get my social security card replaced.

[slowpoked]

 

Josh was cool not to divulge Liza's secret to Kelsey and Lauren, but telling his roommate is just as bad, if not worse.  While I definitely agree with Josh that it was not cool for Lauren to drug everyone, I also think that showed he was definitely happier not knowing Liza's true age, or at least not in that way.

I don't think it's the age, but more like the lying. If Liza had come out and say, right at that moment she met Josh, "Uh, thanks, but I'm 40, not 26..." I think he would have still been interested in her. Or maybe not. Who knows. But Liza let the lie live on its own, and Josh has the right to feel upset about it. 

 

I know the writers are matching up Charles and Liza eventually, but I find it interesting that Josh isn't written as a typical, dumb 26-year old. Sure, there's the usual I-can't-afford-my-own-apartment-so-my-10-friends-live-with-me-in-a-one-bedroom-apartment, but other than that, he's written to be an interesting, creative, sweet, caring, smart, and mature man. I'm thinking he's not that bad of a match for Liza at all. And I can see why Liza eventually fell for him, when at first both she and Maggie just thought of him as a hot fling that will end eventually.

[Electruck]

Although it seemed really short, I liked that Liza came up with the slideshow to tell more about herself to Josh. He said he's a visual guy who doesn't enjoy reading, so instead of writing him her story, she showed it to him. She listened.

[girlplease]

Yeah, I really liked that bit of the story. The selection of pictures was interesting too - including her ex husband and even prom date, she was showing him she had nothing left to hide.

As someone who's closer to 40 than 26, I'm not really bothered by the characterizations of either demographic on this show. I like that the twentysomethings can be smart, driven, and savvy - but also woefully naive at times. That's true to life. And I like that the fortysomethings have a wealth of knowledge and experience, but might not be as immersed in social media (for example) as someone who never knew a time before cell phones. There's advantages and disadvantages to both ages, and just when I think the show is really going to offend me, they show the other side of the coin.

[snowydaze]

Yeah, I really liked that bit of the story. The selection of pictures was interesting too - including her ex husband and even prom date, she was showing him she had nothing left to hide.

As someone who's closer to 40 than 26, I'm not really bothered by the characterizations of either demographic on this show. I like that the twentysomethings can be smart, driven, and savvy - but also woefully naive at times. That's true to life. And I like that the fortysomethings have a wealth of knowledge and experience, but might not be as immersed in social media (for example) as someone who never knew a time before cell phones. There's advantages and disadvantages to both ages, and just when I think the show is really going to offend me, they show the other side of the coin.

 

 

 

I am trying to see where they show an advantage to being a woman who is 40, who is a career woman. They are portrayed as nasty, vengeful, petty, and also totally out of it when it comes to fashion or technology, which is ridiculous.

Sorry, but a woman who is in a corporate job of a company like publishing, can not be so out of touch with social media, no matter if they are the old old 40 years old!

The stay at home mom are also idiots, but at least they are not mean idiots.

It seems like Darren Star has some major dislike for working middle aged women, who did not give up their careers to be mommies,

If any other group were portrayed this way it would be causing a stir all over the media. 

Also, I am sorry but I am closer to 40, and NO ONE I work with, even 50 and 60 year olds have ridiculous, outdated hairstyles like Dianna!   Also, we don't all want to hurt our younger colleagues!  Some of the meanest people I work with are the twenty or thirty year olds who are simply very immature and hurtful to others, since they are not grown up.

It's too bad this show is portraying the middle aged woman as so pathetic, partly to make Sutton Foster come across as a believable 26 year old, when she just isn't looking or acting that age.  I could see her portraying someone who is 35, but not 26.  She's a pretty woman, and looks great, but she has a maturity about her, which is not bad, but it makes her little scheme unbelievable.

Edited June 16, 2015 by snowydaze

[aradia22]

I could have checked in earlier but you know, obviously I didn't. I watched this show in chunks so clearly it wasn't something that I was dying to watch but when I did watch one episode, I wanted to watch another two or three. In that sense, it's perfect for TVLand because it feels like something that should already be in reruns.

 

I already loved Sutton Foster coming into the show so I was biased. I think there are times when she can definitely still pass for younger but there were also a ton of times during the series where I wondered if the people around her were willfully deluding themselves. No 26-year-old looks that haggard. Not that she looks bad for her actual age but she would if you thought she was 26. It's not too much like Sex and the City beyond the slight selfishness and lying (I say slight because she has a long way to go before she's as bad as Carrie) and the crazy looking outfits.

 

Josh has perfect boyfriend syndrome (I'm here to help you on your journey and super forgiving every time you mess up) with a splash of immaturity and a sprinkling of character development. I'm interested to see where they go with him from here. I'm sensing that they want to set up a romance with her older boss but I can't tell whether or not I would root for that. On the one hand, it seems like a good match. On the other hand, it would be so, so messy at this point given all the lying. 

 

I found the boss character a little annoying at first but I think they've gotten to a pretty good place with her and she gets some good jokes. I really need her to either get together with the boss she has a crush on or find another guy because her resenting Liza for their relationship is just getting tedious and there's nowhere else for her to go constantly hoping he'll finally notice her. 

 

Hillary Duff is just OK. I'm glad they didn't end up making her someone who was secretly hoping to screw Liza down the line but they also haven't done anything too great with the character.

 

What else? At times I feel like this show doesn't understand young people at all and at other times I feel like it doesn't understand older people either.

 

I hope they continue to get great guest stars like Ana Gasteyer. It was a good story but I'm a little disappointed they burned her character so quickly.

[aradia22]

 

Liza's video was stupid. In RL, those photos of her youth and events from the Pleistocene Era would repel a tattoo artist/washboard player.

Yeah, I didn't think her choice of photos communicated that much. I mean, sure, it said she was willing to let him get to know her but the actual photos... I don't know. I didn't really buy it. Then again I haven't bought a lot of Liza's supposedly successful moves since the "Show Us Your Oates" campaign.

 

I was also convinced she'd fess up to Diana and they'd be confidantes. (Sutton could easily Cyrano Charles on behalf of Diana).

Yes, but if rom-coms have taught me anything, after all her Cyrano-ing she'd realize she wants Charles for herself and go confess her feelings. And Diana deserves better than that.

[Snarklepuss]

Seriously?  I have never had to do this and I've gone through quite a few jobs in the past 20 years.  Would they now require to see proof of all my name changes too?  Marriage licenses, divorce papers, etc.  I think that's starting to get a bit overly intrusive.  It was hard enough to track down copies of all those documents again when I got married a second time.

 

I've worked in the corporate world and what can I say?  They want to see your birth certificate or passport and driver's license, all of which have your date of birth on them.  Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but I'm betting a big publishing company in NYC would require it if only to establish your identity and if you say you're an American citizen the birth cert. or passport would establish that you're legal to work in the US as well.  I think this is being done because fraud and misrepresentation are on the rise.  Of course they don't ask for stuff like marriage licenses and divorce papers.  But they even do background checks on people now.  New employees at my Fortune 100 company can't start until their background check is done and they pass.  They can't be too careful today and there's nothing illegal about it.

 

From this website - http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/getting-hired-faq-33624-6.html :

 

 

Why do I need to bring a passport or birth certificate to my first day of work?

Employers are legally obligated to make sure that you are authorized to work in the United States. To do this, both you and the employer must complete USCIS Form I-9: Employment Eligibility Verification Form, and you must provide proof of your identity and work authorization. Your employer cannot specify which documents you must present; you can choose any available documents from the lists provided on the form. List A documents (such as a U.S. passport) provide evidence of both identity and authorization to work. List B documents (such as a driver’s license) prove identity, and List C documents (such as a U.S. birth certificate) prove work authorization. For information on the I-9 form -- and the variety of other documents you may be asked to sign as a new employee -- see Nolo's article First-Day Paperwork for New Employees: Understand What You're Signing.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[Shermie]

I really don't think job application requirements in the real world are relevant in a fictional show.

As for Darren Star's attitude about women, I think he has a dislike of suburban moms too, given their portrayal as simpering, child-obsessed, pastel sweater set wearing, dull housewives on Sex and the City.

As for the show in season two, my guess is that Josh will eventually be history and Liza will start a fling with Charles. Diane will get all pissy about powerful men going for younger women, not knowing the irony of it all.

[Julia]

As for Darren Star's attitude about women, I think he has a dislike of suburban moms too, given their portrayal as simpering, child-obsessed, pastel sweater set wearing, dull housewives on Sex and the City.

 

His portrayal of single women wasn't particularly flattering either.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Julia

[Snarklepuss]

I really don't think job application requirements in the real world are relevant in a fictional show.

As for Darren Star's attitude about women, I think he has a dislike of suburban moms too, given their portrayal as simpering, child-obsessed, pastel sweater set wearing, dull housewives on Sex and the City.

 

If real world job application requirements aren't relevant then why should the way he chooses to portray suburban moms/women vs. the "real world" be any more relevant in a fictional show?

[Shermie]

I didn't say his portrayal of suburban moms was relevant, I thought it was annoying stereotyping.

And the show did address the ID requirement of applying for a job (her friend made a fake), but the detailed real world minutiae outlined upthread seems irrelevant. Maybe Liza had phones of everything required and she spent days filling out forms, but they didn't show or tell that, and don't need to. The "I'm gonna fake my age" montage was enough to show she was taking concrete steps to fake it.

[Snarklepuss]

Suburban soccer mom stereotyping = unrealistic

 

Liza faking and getting away with ID and job application fraud = unrealistic

 

I think both are equally as unrealistic and equally as relevant to discuss as such concerning this show since Liza is in fact guilty of such fraud and in the real world would likely not get away with it.

 

I only brought up the details about it to establish its relevance since some people doubted whether employers ask for birth certificates or other age identifying ID, which I know they do more often than not today especially in medium - larger companies.   I work in a Fortune 100 company in a department that handles employee investigations and background checks and I know how the HR process works in many other companies as well.

 

I think it's very relevant to point this out as Liza has seemingly lied and committed ID fraud and gotten away with it on the show.  This is something central to the entire premise of the show.  In my educated opinion, she would likely never attempt it and even if she did she'd never be able to get away with that in real life.  At best it's highly doubtful.  Knowing all that I do about this stuff I would have to suspend disbelief in order to go along with the show that she got away with it.  I would think it's only "irrelevant" if you're willing to discount that it's a) a central premise of the show itself, without which the show would not be possible or believable or b) if you're uneducated about, willing to deny or suspend disbelief about the prevalence of background checking during hiring and how it would expose her and make her lose her job.  YMMV, what can I say?

Edited June 28, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[Eolivet]

I was not expecting to like, or even watch this show, but the incessant ads won me over and I just finished it last night.

 

My take is slightly different, though. I feel like it's more about society's complete obsession with age. That once you remove age (or negate it as a factor), people of different ages aren't so different after all. I saw the housewives/book club members from New Jersey not so much as a comment on their age, but a comment on how sheltered they were. They aren't what happens when you get older, but what happens when you start hanging around all the same types of people.

 

Meanwhile, Liza is "Younger" not because of her (false) age, but because of how she acts and the fact that she's been able to fit seamlessly (or almost seamlessly) into each world. And while I think she's been uncomfortable with some aspects of Kelsey and Josh's "younger" lives, she's also (to me) developed real relationships, not based on age at all.

 

Perhaps Maggie is a better example, though. Sure, she was "Craig's List Maggie" and the "Older Wise Lesbian," but Kelsey and Lauren welcomed Maggie into their de facto "group" even though she was "older," because she was a friend of Liza's. In fact, the only characters where Liza didn't mesh well seemed to me the ones perenially stuck in their "age roles:" Josh's roommates and the 40-something housewives book club (minus one frisky woman afterwards). Diana is another interesting example determined to "act her age" and look down on younger women, but we still saw her bonding with the gay college student over her purse, as well as potentially bonding with Liza when they were both trying to get drunk Jane Krakowski into a cab.

 

I also absolutely love the triangle developing between Josh, Liza and Charles. Liza gets along well with each of them, and I think has great chemistry with both of them. I cannot wait for the next season in that regard, particularly all the "Charles thinks she's 26, but Josh knows she's 40" because you know those hijinks are coming.

 

But the main message of the show, for me, is people in their 40s and people in their 20s have more in common than they think, and are impeded by roles/exepctations society has placed on each of them. But a "40 year-old divorcee" can become a 26 year-old publishing assistant and develop real friendships with her 20something colleagues, a 26 year-old tattoo artist can (unknowingly) fall in love with a 40 year-old divorcee, and 20something women can become friends (and even make out) with a 40 year-old lesbian.

 

In other words: Age ain't nothing but a number.

[DangerousMinds]

I don't want to see Liza and Diana pitted against one another for a man, though.

I absolutely DESPISE this episode title. I am far from a prude, but it turns me off to,the entire show.

[Snarklepuss]

But the main message of the show, for me, is people in their 40s and people in their 20s have more in common than they think, and are impeded by roles/exepctations society has placed on each of them. But a "40 year-old divorcee" can become a 26 year-old publishing assistant and develop real friendships with her 20something colleagues, a 26 year-old tattoo artist can (unknowingly) fall in love with a 40 year-old divorcee, and 20something women can become friends (and even make out) with a 40 year-old lesbian.

 

In other words: Age ain't nothing but a number.

 

Eolivet, that's an interesting take and I might agree with you if not for the fact that Liza is mostly acting and effacing her real opinions and reactions when she relates to the 20 somethings, and the show goes out of its way to show how this is a real stretch for her to accomplish and that she often doesn't get it quite right.  If she were to be her genuine self I doubt those younger people would like her.  She often has to restrain herself from launching into an "older wiser" role with them.  I get what you're saying about having stuff in common but getting down to that takes an awful lot of effort on Liza's part and for me the message of the show is just that - That you are what you are and no matter what you do to stifle it, it comes out eventually.

[Eolivet]

Eolivet, that's an interesting take and I might agree with you if not for the fact that Liza is mostly acting and effacing her real opinions and reactions when she relates to the 20 somethings, and the show goes out of its way to show how this is a real stretch for her to accomplish and that she often doesn't get it quite right.  If she were to be her genuine self I doubt those younger people would like her.  She often has to restrain herself from launching into an "older wiser" role with them.  I get what you're saying about having stuff in common but getting down to that takes an awful lot of effort on Liza's part and for me the message of the show is just that - That you are what you are and no matter what you do to stifle it, it comes out eventually.

 

True, except I wonder how much of Liza's "this is so not me" is doth protesting too much. Obviously not the crazier things like dodgeball or the "Hot Mitzvah" or living with your parents, but I suppose I believe if Liza was really the square peg in the round hole that she claims, she would've been found out a lot more quickly because she wouldn't have been able to believably fake it through many of her adventures. Sure, she feels compelled to "offer advice" every now and then, but if she thought Kelsey was that stupid and couldn't relate to her at all, I don't believe they would've been able to become friends. Same with Josh and that relationship.

 

I suppose I agree that "you are what you are and no matter what you do, it comes out eventually" but in a positive way. I believe the show is saying Liza was not just a 40 year-old mom from New Jersey -- that she had talents and tastes that went beyond her small, sheltered existence, and once she opened herself up to them, she found herself. Or started to discover her real self. It will be very interesting to see how her role as a mother fits into her new existence, because I feel like the show put that on the backburner on purpose, concentrating on the "divorcee" part more than the "mother" part of her.

 

But I guess I believe if Liza really was pretending as much as she claims, then she would've seemed a lot more comfortable with the book club of the women she used to be. Sure, she was happy to curl up in sweats and watch Downton Abbey with Maggie, but she seemed equally happy to celebrate with Kelsey on her book accomplishment (prior to Thad joining) or watch Josh play in his washboard band in that dive bar. I thought it was mostly the lie that made Liza uncomfortable, not her age. Had she been able to say "I have no idea who Andrew Keegan is" or "I really did lose my virginity at a Nirvana concert" with no repercussions, I think she would've happily continued in this existence (maybe a slightly tempered version). But I feel like society has expectations placed on age, especially for women, which is why she can't, and I find that fascinating. And kind of sad.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Eolivet

[Snarklepuss]

Eolivet, I see what you're saying but if the show is making that point I kind of think it's insulting in its assumption that women who live as suburban housewives generally live a boring, banal existence.  Surely that is something individual and not a societal phenomenon.  At least I would hope so and I like to assume the best of women in general even if the show doesn't and prefers to negatively stereotype them.

 

My theory has always been that Liza is going through a post-divorce "breakout" phase which makes her enjoy living in the moment and doing things she wouldn't ordinarily do.  Having gone through a similar phase myself I can dig it.  And I didn't have to pretend I was younger in order to enjoy it, either.  I had the younger boyfriend and roomed for a summer with 20 somethings in NYC, and was quite honest about my age, and nobody raised an eyebrow.  But once it's over you don't want to go back there and you actually enjoy your so-called "banal, boring" adulthood.  At least that was true for me.

[JAYJAY1979]

To me, it isn't a contest over whether the over 35 crowd or the under 35 crowd are portrayed horribly. To me, the show seems to portray all women regardless of age in a negative light.

I do agree that Debi mazur'S character is the only character portrayed fairly well. Of course, she's hardly been featured as more then just a talk to thus far.

I'm hoping season 2 focuses a little more on the other characters and have Liza be a little less featured.