Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Shanna Marie]

I expect missing his heart affects his survivor skills. Knowing you are a dead man walking doesn't help either.

And in some ways, being passive is a form of resistance. He can't disobey the orders, but he doesn't have to work very hard to carry them out. Oh dear, sorry, couldn't manage to find Henry for you. I guess he outwitted me. Anything else you want me to do before you kill me?

 

There may also be some fear that once Emma finds out what he's done, she'll hate him, and probably so will everyone else. It's not like he has a lot of reason to live. Notice that the only things that are getting him riled up are when Rumple's plans could hurt someone else. Then he'll protest and try to sway Rumple. When it comes to his own fate, it's like "Whatever, just get it over with."

[RadioGirl27]

For a self-professed "survivor", Hook has been remarkably passive these past few episodes. I do hope he at least attempts to save his own arse in the finale. 

I think he has just accepted his fate. Like he says to Rumple in this last episode: villains never win,  and Hook sees himself as a villain, so he is not talking only about Rumple, but also about himself.

[daxx]

I think he has just accepted his fate. Like he says to Rumple in this last episode: villains never win,  and Hook sees himself as a villain, so he is not talking only about Rumple, but also about himself.

That is truly sad. He is one of a very few that still see him as a villain. Emma doesn't see a villain when she looks at him. The Charmings have been mostly won over as well.

[Souris]

I'm wondering if, when Rumple drops Hook's heart (crushed or not) into the hat, and the spell doesn't go as he thinks it will (because I think that's probably a given), all the hatted beings will come out, including the Apprentice -- who will be holding Hook's heart and will restore it to him. And that will be yet another thing the show doesn't let Emma accomplish when it's set up to be her. I'm feeling particularly cynical today.

 

Ugh, there were a lot of clauses in that first sentence.

[Shanna Marie]

I think I know how Hook will be saved:

 

While Emma is crying over his lifeless body after his heavily foreshadowed death, Anna will stage whisper to her sister "Who's he?" Elsa will explain that he's Emma's love, Captain Hook, who used to be a pirate. To which Anna will reply, "Ew, pirates. I thought they'd be easier than wizards, but that last one was no picnic. Kristoff and I were pushed overboard in a trunk by Blackbeard, the captain of the Jolly Roger."

 

At which point, Hook will sit bolt upright, saying, "Wait, what?"

[YaddaYadda]

Actually, given that Anna has saved the day countless times this half-season, maybe shell save Hook too!

[Curio]

No, no. You guys have it wrong. Emma will be crying over Hook's lifeless body, but then Regina will randomly pop into the scene with a vial of glowing white magic liquid. Ends up they're Regina's True Love tears that she cried out after having to break up with Robin because Marian finally thawed out after 8 episodes. So Regina ends up reviving Hook for Emma, which would show just "how far she's come."

[Dani-Ellie]

OMG I could totally see that. I would violently hate it, but I could totally see it. *cries*

[KingOfHearts]

Or better yet, they'll use a double combo of Regina's True Love for Robin and Regina's True Hate for Emma to break the laws of magic whenever they want.

Edited December 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Curio, I would like to thank you for the awful images you conjured up in my mind and also tell you that I don't really like you right now.

 

I'll go sob in my pillow now because I'm so disheartened.

[Curio]

Curio, I would like to thank you for the awful images you conjured up in my mind and also tell you that I don't really like you right now.

 

Sorry I ruined your day, YaddaYadda! :( Let me make it up to you by speculating a different ending to that scene:

 

As Emma cries over Hook's lifeless body, she brings his body in closer and embraces him one final time. Her face nuzzled into his neck and her hand cupping the back of his head, she stays in that position for what seems like an eternity. Finally, Emma quietly whispers "I love you," which magically brings together all of the dust particles of Hook's crushed heart that were scattered on the ground. The heart debris float into the air and miraculously form back into one fully, glowing heart. Emma sees the newly reformed heart next to her and puts it back into Hook's chest. He wakes up and Emma's sad tears are now happy tears and Mark Isham's got a bunch of melodramatic cellos playing in the background but nobody cares about how cheesy it is because Emma and Hook start making out and it is magical.

 

Is that better?

[Rumsy4]

So, I guess Rumple's shenanigans are brought to light in the next episode, and hopedully Belle leaves him. What's to stop him from memory-wiping Belle and taking her with him across the Town Line? He could even make sure that "Lacey" comes back, so she can encourage him in all his evil deeds. After all the disrespect he's shown Belle, I can believe he would stoop to anything!

[Souris]

I had a thought. What if Belle ends up with the real dagger somehow and orders Rumple to return Hook's heart to him and then leave town? It would be nice for Belle to get a spine. Though that would be yet another instance of it not being Emma to save Hook. Or maybe she could order Rumple to leave after he goes through with his plan (and after Curio's revised speculation occurs ;-).

[KingOfHearts]

 

So, I guess Rumple's shenanigans are brought to light in the next episode, and hopedully Belle leaves him. What's to stop him from memory-wiping Belle and taking her with him across the Town Line? He could even make sure that "Lacey" comes back, so she can encourage him in all his evil deeds. After all the disrespect he's shown Belle, I can believe he would stoop to anything!

Rumple is just OP. I'm just waiting for his Achilles' Heel to turn up and kick him. Right now he's just got more power than he knows what to do with. Belle doesn't even validate as a leash any more because he's doing whatever he wants despite her faith in him. I hope they separate and don't get back together until the end of the show.

 

Curio, I believe you just wrote a CS fanfic. If there's any True Love magic going on between Hook and Emma, their relationship better be super official in 4B to the point where Emma starts actually being open to others about it. It would be rushed, but if there's TL stuff, then it wouldn't make sense to go any less. CS does much better at freight-training than OQ.

Edited December 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

Rumple is just OP. I'm just waiting for his Achilles' Heel to turn up and kick him.

 

Possible Achille's Heels?

1) Tech - he doesn't worry too much about it (if he hadn't have been in the jailhouse during the reviewing of the Zelena Tapes, he would have gotten caught) so the phone/cloud/telco servers could be his undoing.

 

2) Love - although he appreciates the Love is a very powerful magic (he's not one of those villains who snear about love being a weakness) and knows how to manipulate using the love that others have, he still might caught off-guard by somebody doing something he might not consider doing (he has sacrificed his life for love, but it might be a zig rather than a zag).

 

3) Belle - he loves Belle, but has no qualms about "managing" her (freezing, tricking and mind-whiping her so that he can do what he wants and she is forced to go along  without her knowledge), she might have a moment of freedom from his "management" where she can discover or reveal his secrets. She is closer to him than others, so she has more opportunities.

 

4) Henry - he can use blood magic (through accident or purpose) which could open the safe-of-secrets. Henry could either reveal those secrets or run off with some of them.  He is the boy that is supposed to be Rumple's undoing - so perhaps that fortune hasn't come true yet.

 

5) Emma - she's pretty powerful so maybe she can overpower Rumple if she gets a clue from one of the others (Belle, Henry or Will).

 

6) Regina - she's frequently the one to save the day pulling horsehoes out of her butt - she can suddenly develop the ability to defeat almost anybody's Achilles heel (from having no regrets to suddenly developing stronger white magic than Glinda the Good Witch). She can develop the ability to read minds and be more powerful than Rumple if the writers want her to save the day again.

 

7) Rumple - his heart could suddenly grow three sizes that day. It's Christmas!

Edited December 9, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

When Henry got the job at his shop, I thought for sure he'd find the hat or dagger. That possibility is getting a bit grim. I'm starting to wonder they even started that plot line. Who knows, maybe I'll be surprised and it's a Chekhov's Gun.

[doxamully]

One of my own theories/fantasies is that there is a showdown with Rumps, Hook, and Emma with Rumple holding Hook's heart and being generally evil and threatening, oh no, when suddenly Hook's love for Emma makes his heart get all super glowy and burns Rumple's hand or something. It sounds so so silly to me, but considering this show and the realm of possibility (almost anything) and my own CS shipper heart, I'd love for something like that to happen. Although really, the best actual resolution would be for Emma to kick Rumple's tuckus.

[The Cake is a Pie]

If you want to do 100% pure fromage, they can have Rumple try to crush Hook's heart, only to find that he can't, and Emma shows up and shouts, hey, that belongs to ME!

Delicious cheese.

[Camera One]

No, no. You guys have it wrong. Emma will be crying over Hook's lifeless body, but then Regina will randomly pop into the scene with a vial of glowing white magic liquid. Ends up they're Regina's True Love tears that she cried out after having to break up with Robin because Marian finally thawed out after 8 episodes. So Regina ends up reviving Hook for Emma, which would show just "how far she's come."

 

Or how about this?  When Regina hands Emma the vial of glowing white magic liquid, Emma says, "No."  And then Emma launches into "All I Want For Christmas Is You" to Regina while Granny, Snow, Charming, the Dwarves, the Frozen folk, and the Freed Fairies dance in the background as snow falls and fireworks go off in the sky.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

I had an unsettling series of thoughts.

 

We’ve mostly been assuming that the picture of Regina choosing Robin is proof that we make choices and Regina chose not to see Robin--free will intact.  However, I’ve been stuck on how specific and accurate Ingrid’s information was from the Sorcerer.  (Or the Apprentice, anyway.) 

 

What if the author of the book is the Sorcerer, and he was just making editing choices?

 

The Sorcerer knew Emma would be born, that she would end up in the world without magic, that Storybrooke would exist, and that Emma would end up there.  The Sorcerer knew the year Emma would end up there.

 

That’s potentially author level knowledge.

 

What are the chances that Regina’s Operation Mongoose is going to end up with the Author being also the Sorcerer, and Regina was chosen to make certain things happen?  (Storybrooke, for example.)  Thus, Regina didn’t actually chose to be evil--she was made.  Because she fought so hard against her destiny as evil, she now deserves an extra shiny special happy ending?

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

What if the author of the book is the Sorcerer, and he was just making editing choices?

..,

What are the chances that Regina’s Operation Mongoose is going to end up with the Author being also the Sorcerer, and Regina was chosen to make certain things happen?

Horrible as it would be, there is precedent for that in LOST, with the whole Jacob/Man in Black thing (which incidentally, pissed a lot of people off). However, in LOST, there were indications throughout the Show that someone or something was pulling the strings behind the scenes. In the case of ONCE, the "Jacob" like figure has been Rumple. But even he has not been shown to be all-knowing or all-powerful. So, the Sorceror could end up being that ultimate Big Bad of the series, whom the main characters need to team up and defeat. Pulling strings is one thing, but if they start saying that people's choices were also pre-determined by the Sorceror, it will end up being really stupid.

[YaddaYadda]

The whole Once vs Lost is disappointing.  It just means that A&E don't have an original thought.  I don't think the Sorcerer is a bad guy, though I'm not exactly sure why he would have crafted the hat. 

[Mari]

Pulling strings is one thing, but if they start saying that people's choices were also pre-determined by the Sorceror, it will end up being really stupid.

Yes, it would be.  But this is the same team that seem to think they're writing a deep, meaningful romance with Robin/Regina and who've managed to make mastermind Rumple into the guy who couldn't get there when everybody else could, and then didn't manage to have more than a couple of conversations with his centuries long quest item--and think that's just fine and makes sense. 

 

This is the same writing team who think a grand, mysterious turn is to make every single person related somehow.  I'm not sure it's possible to overestimate their ability to make poor writing choices--like Regina, if given two choices, they will almost always go for the worse of the two.

 

It's entirely possible that this isn't the direction they're going, but it would be one way to solve the problem they've created of having both Evil Queen and Hero Regina at the same time--Regina can't help herself, because the Sorcerer made her do it.

 

The Sorcerer could even be the reason all of these stories are known in the world without magic;  it's his job/mission to make sure these stories get lived out properly.  Regina was just  the poor girl who best fit the criteria he needed for Evil Queen type, and once he's put it on paper, she's forced, somehow, to make that one scene happen.

[YaddaYadda]

So a thought (Ha!) occurred to me. I was going to post it in the Hook thread, but then it's also a speculation w/o spoilers.  Hook has basically escaped every curse thrown everyone's way thus far.  The Dark Curse, he was under Cora Dome, Pan's curse wasn't a curse per se really, he escaped Snow/Zelena's curse and he wasn't touched by the Shattered Sight one because his heart was ironically protected in Gold's shop.  He is one of the few people we know for sure can come and go from Storybrooke as he pleases as well.

 

And come to think of it, Emma as also escaped the same curses (again Pan's curse was sort of lame and she didn't need a TLK to remember, a potion did it).

 

So why is that?

[KingOfHearts]

There's a lot to worry about for 4B. The additions of Maleficent, Cruella and Ursula don't help either. Don't get me wrong, they're fantastic characters, but it's this show. You throw shiny gems into it, and dull rocks come out. Here's what I'm concerned with:

 

* Too much plot. We have not one, but three Big Bads this time, each one with their own backstory. Then there's all the storylines that were left hanging or pushed back in 4A, like Will, Robin Hood, Rumpbelle, Belle's mom, Marian... I doubt anything will get proper screen time. 

* It's probably going to be Regina-heavy. I love Regina but whenever the plot gravitates toward her, bad things happen.

* The villainesses are unoriginal. Where have we seen fashionable sorceresses strutting around with spells and snark before?

* It's the back-half of the season, which means doom.

* Frozen is gone, along with its increased production quality. A&E are free to let loose once again.

* Lack of major twist or reset. All we know is we have Queens of Darkness, but I don't suspect anything close to Going Home's ending.

* Heaps of relationship angst. CS has the Rumple thing to work through, Rumpbelle is a basketcase, and Marian can't stay frozen forever.

 

Unless something comes out of left-field, this is what I believe we'll get. If it's totally craptastic, then at the very least I can't wait to discuss how bad it truly is!

Edited December 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

I know they'll likely mess it up, but I'm actually super excited for Maleficent's return. As much as I would have loved an appearance last year instead of just using her voice on the spinoff, I kind of like that they've held off on the character, even if I know it was mostly due to the actress' availability. It's kind of nice to have a villain who doesn't just appear out of thin air (Oh! She was in Oz all this time! Oh! She was urned! That's why you never saw them or heard mention of them in previous flashbacks, let's just insert them into the timeline, okay?) and who has been present in this universe since the second episode of the series.

 

I mean, she has "history" in some form or the other with most of the main cast and even some of the recurring cast:

 

Regina, the friend who defeated her and trapped her under the library and who she advised not to use the curse. Of course, the worry here is that they will make it all about Regina.

 

Emma, the one who killed her dragon form.

 

Charming, who put an egg in her.

 

Will (and maybe all of the Merry Men), who stole the looking glass from her.

 

Aurora, the one she cursed. See also: Aurora’s mother. Also interesting is that she seemingly expressed regret for using the sleeping curse despite the fact that she probably had Aurora under one at that very moment. They could do some very interesting things with this, IMO, especially after the live action movie, and I wouldn't really consider it a retcon.

 

Phillip, the man she turned into a monster and who woke Aurora.

 

Rumple, who told Charming to put an egg in her and whose dark curse she once possessed, but apparently had no intention of using. And come on, we all know there’s no way Mal and Rumple existed in the EF at the same time and didn't interact.

 

Possibly Belle and Mulan, for helping turn Phillip into a man again.

 

Possibly Hook, who recognized her wraith form. I kind of have a headcanon that it was Maleficent who informed Hook of Belle’s location in Regina’s castle. She was captured just after helping Phillip, so it's possible Maleficent was aware of what happened to her. Hook found Belle only shortly before the casting of the curse, so Maleficent could have told him to get back at Regina.

 

Possibly the Blue Fairy, if the speculation that she is the Black Fairy is correct, which would fit with the live action movie lore. I also noticed that in the promo, her staff has a rock on it instead of the previous globe thing. If her wand and wings have been taken from her, it would explain her use of the staff, as other magic users like Cora and Regina did not need any such instrument to perform magic. 

 

I think about Maleficent a lot, okay?

[Camera One]

I know they'll likely mess it up, but I'm actually super excited for Maleficent's return.

 

Why isn't she the only villain for 4B?  There's enough for just her and she's such an epic Disney villain, one of the best.  Not to mention that would allow time to properly show the backstory for Aurora Jr. and Aurora Sr, and her history with Regina and with Rumple.

 

One problem is they sort of threw out the potential of Maleficient by making her seemingly more reformed than Regina in the second episode of the series.  Such a waste... the fact they're adding 2 villains in addition to Maleficient makes me worried they're screwing her over again.

 

I also can't say I was that impressed with the actress they chose to play her.  She didn't seem very menacing.

[YaddaYadda]

I also can't say I was that impressed with the actress they chose to play her.  She didn't seem very menacing.

 

At the same time, Ingrid wasn't very menacing either, but she was effective enough as a villain.  I think it's really comes down to how the actor chooses to play their character.  EM's Ingrid was quiet and crazy and I thought that made her menacing because she could just switch it on and off just like that (sort of like Cora).  Madder's Zelena chewed the scenery and the Evil Queen is over the top which given the way she dresses and the dialogue she has, she's supposed to be over the top (though scenery chewing)...

[Camera One]

If not menace, there has to be an edge at the very least, and I didn't feel it in S1 Ep 2, which was probably affected by having Maleficient being the voice of reason to Regina.  I have heard good things about the actress, so I am open to it.  

 

Is anyone else looking at the title for this week's episode "Heroes and Villains" and getting a little shudder?

[Rumsy4]

Is anyone else looking at the title for this week's episode "Heroes and Villains" and getting a little shudder?

 

Not, but I am rolling my eye a bit. Cos we know Regina will be aligned with the "Heroes" by the end of the episode.

[Camera One]

Since I don't read spoilers or watch previews, I have no idea what the point of the finale episode is.  To stop Rumple from leaving Storybrooke?  What does the absorption of the Hat's powers even look like or involve?  At this point only Hook knows Rumple's secret, and I don't see how it will "come out".  I am assuming the Snow Queen's Ice Wall has melted since she sacrificed herself?  Are we going to have a farewell to the "Frozen" folk?  Is that in the first five minutes and then promptly onto the next thing?  How are they going to get home?  Does the Wishing Star necklace work with unlimited wishes?  The Marion triangle has been iced, literally, so now it's going to be back.  Are they going to set up the 4B villain/person of interest in the last minute like in 3B?  The only way I can think of them doing this is, everyone gets freed from the Hat, including some evil folk.  

 

In some ways, the ending of the last episode didn't have much to entice a casual fan to watch this next one.  If I only cared about "Frozen", none of the remaining stuff is all that intriguing.

[scarynikki12]

I wonder if Rumpel's plan with the hat backfires and releases Maleficent, Ursula, and Cruella.  Cruella isn't a magical character but I can see the show making her one.  Or, maybe we'll learn that Muggles can be sucked into the hat if specifically targeted and just stay there as if in prison without adding to its power.  They probably have nothing to do with the hate but it would certainly be a consequence, especially if all three show up with far more magical power (or, in Cruella's case, at all) than we'd previously been aware of.

 

I will say that I expect Cruella, magical or not, to be the first of the ladies killed off.  In addition to having no magic, her story is far more simple than the other two: she wants to kill a shit ton of puppies to make a coat.  That's it.  She wasn't interested in taking power, she just wanted to murder 101 adorable little faces, which is disgusting but not on the same level as Ursula or Maleficient.  I expect her to go after Pongo to stay true to the story (unless the show does something dumb like reveal that she has powers and Pongo was once human who objected to her animal cruelty so she turned him into a dog himself and somehow that makes him the villain).  She'll pull something, get killed in retaliation and then the heroes spend the rest of 4B running around failing to deal with the other two until the season finale. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I wonder if Rumpel's plan with the hat backfires and releases Maleficent, Ursula, and Cruella.

 

I don't know about Maleficent, though. She was never hatted.

 

 

I will say that I expect Cruella, magical or not, to be the first of the ladies killed off.  In addition to having no magic, her story is far more simple than the other two: she wants to kill a shit ton of puppies to make a coat.  That's it.

 

I wish she'd just become a gray character over dying. It would be ridiculous if all three of the Queens of Darkness died. (Which, with A&E's track record, is mostly likely to happen.) If one or two of them stays on the show, if only to antagonize certain characters, I'd be totally game. I think Maleficent is most likely to kick the bucket... again.

Edited December 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't know about Maleficent, though. She was never hatted.

 

That's the other reason why it's weird she was included, apart from my argument above that she deserved to be the sole villain for a half-season.  There must be another female villain they could have used if they wanted to go the "Queens of Darkness" route.

 

And then there's Ursula.  Everything evil that Ursula did in "The Little Mermaid" was actually done by Regina.  So what the hell?  Given Ursula's anger at Regina, I suppose she could mainly target Regina.  Which is fine by me, but it will probably be more like Zelena, where she wanted something from everybody.  

[Rumsy4]

Since I don't read spoilers or watch previews, I have no idea what the point of the finale episode is. To stop Rumple from leaving Storybrooke? What does the absorption of the Hat's powers even look like or involve?

Even with the spoilers, I can't tell what exactly is going to happen. There are so many loose ends to tie up! I expect there's going to be lots of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off--as they do...

All Rumple needs now is for the "stars to align" so he can absorb all power from the Hat, crush Hook's heart and cleave himself from the dagger. It's most likely Anna who figures it all out, as she's been the all-round savior of 4A.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And then there's Ursula.  Everything evil that Ursula did in "The Little Mermaid" was actually done by Regina.  So what the hell?  Given Ursula's anger at Regina, I suppose she could mainly target Regina.  Which is fine by me, but it will probably be more like Zelena, where she wanted something from everybody.

This threw me too. I didn't know she was evil. They're going to have to create a whole new character for her, since Regina was the Disney version.

 

 

Even with the spoilers, I can't tell what exactly is going to happen. There are so many loose ends to tie up! I expect there's going to be lots of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off--as they do...

 

My guess is the Hook/heart plot will be resolved, but the Belle/Rumple fallout will be pushed to 4B, since there is so much dirt to dig up. 

 

 

It's most likely Anna who figures it all out, as she's been the all-round savior of 4A.

I love the idea of Anna taking down Rumple. The irony of a young blissful girl outdoing the Dark One is just too good to pass up.

Edited December 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I love the idea of Anna taking down Rumple. The irony of a young blissful girl outdoing the Dark One is just too good to pass up.

I hoped Emma would be the one to defeat/redeem Ingrid, but Anna did it five minutes after realm-hopping. I hope Emma will be the one to thwart Rumple's plans. This was supposed to be her season!!! :-p

[myril]

I had an unsettling series of thoughts.

 

We’ve mostly been assuming that the picture of Regina choosing Robin is proof that we make choices and Regina chose not to see Robin--free will intact.  However, I’ve been stuck on how specific and accurate Ingrid’s information was from the Sorcerer.  (Or the Apprentice, anyway.) 

 

What if the author of the book is the Sorcerer, and he was just making editing choices?

 

The Sorcerer knew Emma would be born, that she would end up in the world without magic, that Storybrooke would exist, and that Emma would end up there.  The Sorcerer knew the year Emma would end up there.

 

That’s potentially author level knowledge.

 

What are the chances that Regina’s Operation Mongoose is going to end up with the Author being also the Sorcerer, and Regina was chosen to make certain things happen?  (Storybrooke, for example.)  Thus, Regina didn’t actually chose to be evil--she was made.  Because she fought so hard against her destiny as evil, she now deserves an extra shiny special happy ending?

 

The idea of an author, be it the Sorcerer or someone else, could be intriguing. It reminded me of something I read someone saying about their writing process (sorry, can't remember who did), that their characters more and more have a life on their own, that they watch them, describe them and try to get to know them while following them curiously. With that in mind could say, there are authors, who are forging every single detail of their characters according to their vision, who have a very clear vision of their characters and the story, of who is good and who evil, what is good and what is evil and how the story has to end, a determined way of writing (author as all ruling god of their fictional universe). And there is a different way of writing, where the author isn't and doesn't want to be all sure about every detail of their characters, where the author observes and explores and writes down, what they discover (the author as observer, a reporter in an unfolding fictional world).Now what would happen, if their are two authors in a debate, which way is the better one to write a good story, and somehow, magically, because they have the powers or somehow are suddenly showing magical powers, fictional characters come to (real) life. Are these characters doomed to fulfill what they've been set up to, be evil or the hero, have no happy ending or have one, are they limited by (general) story telling rules or can they break free and do things differently, have a mind on their own and make their fate one of their own doing? How free of mind are we in real life, or how determined by genes, nurture, fate, whatever things out of our individual control are we? It's an ongoing debate in our modern worlds, evolution or creation, free will or biochemistry and physics or a god's will.

 

Okay, way too deep going for a TV show. for average audience and particular for these fun writers.

Edited December 13, 2014 by katusch

[scarynikki12]

I really hope that it turns out there is no actual author and that the book was put together by a magical observer who merely recorded what he/she saw.  The page of Regina going into the bar to meet Robin could be explained as the observer being curious as to what could have happened if different choices were made and was able to cast what I'm calling the Hypothetical Charm.  This particular spell wouldn't be a guarantee that the alternate version would actually have happened (ie, it's unlikely that Regina and Robin would have made out seconds after meeting so that could just be a succinct way of demonstrating how quickly they would have connected), but still paints a fairly accurate theory.  It could even delve into alternate results of other events, such as Geppetto choosing to not send Pinocchio through the wardrobe, and involve all the main characters along with Regina.

 

My concern is that revealing that there's an author of the book, rather than a third party making a record of events, lays the groundwork for everyone to be absolved of responsibility for their actions.  Sure, it would mean that Snow could point to the author and say that she told Cora about Daniel because a powerful magical practitioner made her but it would also mean that Regina could counter by making the same claim about casting the Curse, murdering countless innocents, abusing Henry, and trying to murder Emma.  If Zelena were still alive she could point to the author and say that she was made to use the dagger against Rumpel and he shouldn't be pissed while Rumpel could say the same about betraying Belle.  It's just a slippery slope and, while the show is already eager to ignore consequences for the characters and their actions, actually having one character be the reason they all do what they do completely takes away their free will and means they can't change for the better or worse because it's not up to them.  We may as well be watching a show about a little kid playing with dolls.

 

I don't know that this is where the show is going, as the missing page does show that Regina's choice to not enter the bar meant that she and Robin didn't find each other, but I don't want them to get any ideas either.

[Mari]

I really hope that it turns out there is no actual author and that the book was put together by a magical observer who merely recorded what he/she saw.  The page of Regina going into the bar to meet Robin could be explained as the observer being curious as to what could have happened if different choices were made and was able to cast what I'm calling the Hypothetical Charm.  . . .

 

My concern is that revealing that there's an author of the book, rather than a third party making a record of events, lays the groundwork for everyone to be absolved of responsibility for their actions. 

Yes. I'm truly hoping that the Author is just observing possibilities.    But they've been pushing the Author writing their lives thing a lot this season, and have never treated the idea at all as ridiculous.  Now, Regina being wrong might end up being the big reveal  (please, please, please), but I don't trust the writers when it comes to anything connected to Regina.

 

What makes me hate this "the Author really does decide" theory the most, is that it completely undermines the entire premise of the series--that all of these fairytale people are actual people, instead of just stories.  Like you wrote--what would be the point of watching?  I understand that these are just fictional characters, but if they're fictional characters even within their own world? 

 

I think I'll be done.

[YaddaYadda]

What makes me hate this "the Author really does decide" theory the most, is that it completely undermines the entire premise of the series--that all of these fairytale people are actual people, instead of just stories.  Like you wrote--what would be the point of watching?  I understand that these are just fictional characters, but if they're fictional characters even within their own world?

 

I think that what bothers me more than that is they're taking away freedom of choice, like the writers forced these things to happen.  I'm actually a very firm believer in destiny, I don't believe in God at all, but i believe that no matter what happens in our lives, if it's meant to be then it will happen, no matter how long it takes.  

 

It bugs me that it would become that Regina's choice really wasn't hers and Hook's choice really wasn't his and neither was Rumple's and Snowing wouldn't have ended up together and so on...The only person who had freedom of choice is Emma then?  

 

So we know that Regina and Robin are meant to be thanks to the fairy dust as contrived as it is.  This whole book business really sucks.  I was looking at the whole thing more as an authorized biography of the characters.  

 

At this point, I'm really leaning towards the Sorcerer and the author of the book being one and the same.  The stories in the book happened in the past, so it's easy to pen them, but the Sorcerer knew things that hadn't already happened and I'm including Ingrid's death in this.

[KingOfHearts]

It's my understanding the author is aware of destiny's path, but I don't believe he dictates it. Saying someone controls all fate is the perfect excuse not to take responsibility of your choices. Regina believes this because she likes to blame others for her own actions. It's treads against the very important lesson we learned in 3B, where she saved the day with light magic by making her own destiny. Now tell me this, Regina, if you're automatically a villain who loses, why were you able to TLK Henry and defeat Zelena?

In 4x08, when the missing page showed up, I thought it just meant you can make your own choices and the book just records what you do, and that you weren't stuck on one set path. Maybe I wasn't watching close enough, but didn't Regina come to the same conclusion? What's the point of Mongoose now? That's what I'd like to know.

Edited December 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

It's my understanding the author is aware of destiny's path, but I don't believe he dictates it. Saying someone controls all fate is the perfect excuse not to take responsibility of your choices. Regina believes this because she likes to blame others for her own actions. It's treads against the very important lesson we learned in 3B, where she saved the day with light magic by making her own destiny. Now tell me this, Regina, if you're automatically a villain who loses, why were you able to TLK Henry and defeat Zelena?

 

Logically, I completely agree with you, and usually I'd be right there with you saying "There's no way A&E would do anything that nonsensical."  Unfortunately, the key word there is "Regina."

 

When it comes to Regina, all previous rules of the show seem to disappear.

• can love without her heart.
• can resist being controlled when someone has her heart.
• can give True Love Kisses without her heart
• can True Love someone without regretting at all her admitted abuse of him
• can wield powerful light magic while still being pretty evil and keeping a slave as well as others' hearts in boxes
• is a hero for doing selfish things
• victims continually apologize to her
• is not called on any of her abusive behavior to her victims
• her victims think she is amazing and want her to love them

 

I'd forgotten this one.  Thanks, KingOfHearts.

Don't forget that her True Hate for her BFF trumps True Love, the most powerful magic of all.

 

 

Will A&E be able to resist something else that would make Regina even more amazing, like discovering they are all being controlled by the Author (maybe the Sorcerer?)?  Because they don't exactly show much restraint where she's concerned, and were forced to back burner her in the first part of the season (presumably.)

 

I hate the idea, but can see them going there because it would pump up Regina, excuse any and all of her actions that aren't good, make her an extra-heroey hero for discovering they were all being used as meat puppets, and at the same time be an "amazing, unexpected twist" that would explain everything at the last minute.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

When it comes to Regina, all previous rules of the show seem to disappear.

Don't forget that her True Hate for her BFF trumps True Love, the most powerful magic of all.

 

 

Will A&E be able to resist something else that would make Regina even more amazing, like discovering they are all being controlled by the Author (maybe the Sorcerer?)?  Because they don't exactly show much restraint where she's concerned, and were forced to back burner her in the first part of the season (presumably.)

It'll be even worse - she'll gain control from the author, then proceed to give all the poor villains happy endings, so everyone can finally live in peace and harmony forever.

[Souris]

I was pondering the dagger. What would people think if somehow Belle became the Dark One? Some people did seem to like DarkMirror!Belle a lot more than regular Belle, LOL. I admit that I am rather intrigued by this thought of the Beauty becoming the Beast. I'm not sure how they'd work it given the rules of the dagger they've set forth, but they're all the time changing the rules of magic anyway, so they could come up with something where Rumple is still around, just not the Dark One anymore. It might be something interesting for their relationship dynamic, especially if they're still at odds over his betrayal of her with the dagger.

 

(I don't actually expect this to happen, but I had the passing thought.)

[Camera One]

Since we were talking about Cruella not having magic, maybe they will give Cruella magical powers by saying some lady wearing a fur coat happened to pass by and she absorbs the Dark One's powers.  Or maybe they will give Cruella a connection with Charming by saying she was involved in the Storybrooke Animal Shelter in some way.

[KingOfHearts]

Since Cruella wears fur all the time, maybe she's an animal shapeshifter. I doubt she'll have general magic.

Edited December 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[sxibs14]

This is completely off topic from the coming up episode! But my thread was locked..don't know why so I will post my thoughts here!

 

I don't know if any of you have had this thought or not; but googling anything about the actress or character that played Zelena I have noticed a lack in discussion regarding the character. It seems that the little discussion I have come across, most of the viewers are entirely past her character and convinced that it was the end of her run in season 3. When I watched the episode with my friend back in the beginning of the year when Rumple "killed" her character, we were entirely unconvinced that this was the end of her on Once Upon A Time. I have a few points that I would like to bring up that make me speculate this theory, and I would like to hear anyones feedback on this because she was by far my favorite villain on the show so far. I found her far more powerful and relentless than Cora, Evil Regina, and even Rumple. I did notice that it was announced her character would return in Season 4, but i've seen it on little websites; nothing officially confirmed.

The first point i'd like to bring up is when Glinda gave Zelena the pendant to "harness, protect, and grow" her power. She said following that to guard it with her life, because in some ways it now is her life. The episode where Rumple stabbed Zelena with the dagger and she immediately turned to glass, crumbled, then vanished into dust; that was magic. If Zelena had absolutely no magic left, she would've died like any other normal human. I believe that Zelena had created a safety plan incase things didn't go her way where she conjured a spell incase of any injury that would be able to save her; regardless if her physical body had endured any damage. The biggest giveaway was when her pendant had unlocked and released the magic which then opened the portal; I believe that Zelena traveled back in time through the smoke released from the pendant because that actually was her life force. Kind of like the horcrauxs to kill Voldemort in Harry Potter, I believe that it is the same concept.

Secondly, I do believe that Zelena had intended to purposely be killed following Regina defeating her with light magic during the time portal scene. Zelena kept egging on Regina following losing her magic I noticed, really pushing for Regina to kill her and then I noticed when Rumple confronted her in her cell that she had put on an overdramatic don't-kill-me kind of persona to egg him on more; and noticed a smirk immediately following him stabbing her. I know once upon a time is big on correlating the past events with present; and following the scene that she was stabbed was the past event where she tricked dorothy into pouring water on her; making Glinda believe that she was dead and then later on had in acted her revenge on Glinda for believing the water had killed her. I think the show writers did this on purpose and for the viewers to see the correlation of events; in the past she put on a performance, and in the present she acted frightful and scared before Rumple killed her only to shatter into pieces and disappear. I think this was done to foreshadow that Zelena was not actually killed like Rumple believes she is now; he is in Dororthy/Glinda's shoes in present day being tricked by Zelena.

What do you guys think?

Edited December 14, 2014 by sxibs14

[retrograde]

I thought maybe she wasn't really dead at the end of 3B -- there was a theory floated around that Marian was actually Zelena in disguise, and I thought it had some merit -- but then nothing came of it in 3A (unless they're planning some huge reveal in tomorrow's episode).

 

Almost no one is ever dead for good on Once if the creators really want to bring them back, and I do think they left Zelena's "death" a little ambiguous to give themselves the option. But I don't think they will bring her back at this point. The character and the storyline weren't that popular with fans or critics. And it's unlikely they'd need to revisit Oz again, as it seemed pretty separate from the Enchanted Forest and doesn't have any other characters worth exploring. Zelena's only other connections are with Regina and Rumple (though Rumple is connected to freaking everyone ever), and Regina seemed totally disinterested in the fact that she has/had a half sister.

Edited December 14, 2014 by retrograde

[Camera One]

Almost no one is ever dead for good on Once if the creators really want to bring them back, and I do think they left Zelena's "death" a little ambiguous to give themselves the option.

 

Yeah, they have left certain demises a bit ambiguous to give themselves "space" if they don't feel like changing the rules which they can and they do if they feel like it.  I think they were quite emphatic about Neal being dead but I don't remember the same response about Zelena.  It would be easy to make up some explanation how Zelena's essence materialized into Marion so she could be brought back to Storybrooke.  I agree with retrograde that it seems unlikely they want to revisit Oz again given how disinterested they were in that universe in 4B and the writers provided no impact of Zelena's death on Regina, nor do any of the other characters care much about her.