One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[stan4]

11 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Trust me.  I've been with someone who wasn't honest about their feelings and it is not pleasant when you find out you can't trust anything they said the whole time you were together.  Asking questions like that opens the door to communicating about how you really feel; putting a happy face on and saying you're fine closes that door.  And what exactly is the alternative?  Should he have refused to accept her answers?  Gone ahead with the wedding even though it felt too soon?  Not gone on April's field trip when she invited him?  Not done things the way he felt was right for him just because Lorelai seemed unhappy?  Maybe at almost 40 it's time for Lorelai to grow up and learn to communicate with her partner, learn real empathy for the other person and figure out how to work as a team so both people get most of ,what they need. There is a lot of work that goes into a relationship, and part of it is figuring out what the other person needs.  But it's at least as important to know your own feelings and what you need and be able to communicate that to the other person.  Why would anyone  marry someone they can't tell when things in the relationship continually cause them pain?  Why would anyone want to marry someone who continually says they're fine when they aren't?

If you've been reading the thread, I have repeated said that Lorelai was to blame for lying about her feelings.  I've also said that it is inexcusable to expect your partner to be a mind reader and play passive-aggressive mind F and then get mad later bc they took you on your word.

 

[In other words, I TOTALLY agree with you.]

 

However,  as a married person (and  someone who has experienced various relationships), I also know that sometimes  people are shoving their feelings down in order to seem like they're supportive and they really are hurting inside. And despite the fact that it's their job to be upfront with you and honest with you, sometimes you have to do the legwork and push until you get the truth.

 

 I know that many of us have been guilty of taking the "fine" response when we know it's easier than opening up a can of worms.  Luke only got concerned when she went missing at the end and was otherwise blithely accepting whatever was convenient.

 

As for Luke saying he used April to push Lorelai away, I saw that as a half-ass reconciliation/explanation of a really stupid plot of S6....and an attempt to give him an emotional IQ point so we could stop being so fed up with his nonsensical compartmentalization.

[shron17]

3 minutes ago, stan4 said:

However,  as a married person (and  someone who has experienced various relationships), I also know that sometimes  people are shoving their feelings down in order to seem like they're supportive and they really are hurting inside. And despite the fact that it's their job to be upfront with you and honest with you, sometimes you have to do the legwork and push until you get the truth.

I get that too.  I just don't think someone should be expected to deal with integrating an unknown 12-year-old child into their life while at the same time figuring out how to get their partner to be honest about their feelings.  Luke  had enough on his plate.  And I always thought that's why he separated the relationships, because he wasn't at all confident that he could handle both becoming a father and being a newly married person all at the same time.  Maybe it's because the show is arguably about Lorelai, but there is much more concern about Luke understanding Lorelai's feelings than vice versa.  And he's one dealing with a huge life change.  Shouldn't relationships go both ways?

[stan4]

13 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I get that too.  I just don't think someone should be expected to deal with integrating an unknown 12-year-old child into their life while at the same time figuring out how to get their partner to be honest about their feelings.  Luke  had enough on his plate.  And I always thought that's why he separated the relationships, because he wasn't at all confident that he could handle both becoming a father and being a newly married person all at the same time.  Maybe it's because the show is arguably about Lorelai, but there is much more concern about Luke understanding Lorelai's feelings than vice versa.  And he's one dealing with a huge life change.  Shouldn't relationships go both ways?

Yeah, I agree relationships should go both ways.

 As grownups, I'd be concerned about marrying anyone who couldn't handle 2 things at once (was the marriage he had hoped for for 8+ years really so much to deal with?) or who threw me out of his life bc he can't handle integrating things like an effin' grownup.

 

Season 6 was unfair to Luke bc while he was always emotionally awkward and stunted, it made him look like an unreasonable moron and a liar.  That doesn't really seem like him.

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Season 6 was unfair to Luke bc while he was always emotionally awkward and stunted, it made him look like an unreasonable moron and a liar.  That doesn't really seem like him.

The writers screwed with his character from the get go but S6 was just the worst.  I have ASP with the heat of a thousand suns for what she did to him.  She and DP were just determined to leave the show in a horrible mess when they left which was so unfair to the loyal fans.   

[stan4]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Refresh my memory.  When was there yelling and screaming again?

Like.  So much.  Don't talk to her, don't talk to Anna, it's your fault Anna is mad, don't help me with the birthday, you're a cartoon character, blah blah...

[shron17]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

As grownups, I'd be concerned about marrying anyone who couldn't handle 2 things at once (was the marriage he had hoped for for 8+ years really so much to deal with?) or who threw me out of his life bc he can't handle integrating things like an effin' grownup.

Season 6 was unfair to Luke bc while he was always emotionally awkward and stunted, it made him look like an unreasonable moron and a liar.  That doesn't really seem like him.

Well, those are two huge things to handle at once, in my opinion.  Especially for Luke who I think has always been socially awkward.  He's a 40-something-year-old man who's mainly lived alone, often like a hermit, without many relatives or close friends.  He was raised by his dad and his most important relationship was on-again off-again which meant he never really had to learn to be committed or compromise.  He had one disastrous marriage to a woman he enjoyed dating but who was not a good partner for him (Luke moving to Litchfield? It was never going to work.).  His diner takes up a lot of his time and he has a habit of not letting people fully into his life to avoid pain.  Luke isn't without virtue either--he's a decent businessman and works hard at not letting the people in his life down.  Which is also why finding out about April was such a challenge; he wasn't going to be able to figure it out and play it ear as he went along.  He had to give it his all.  April could be the only child he ever has and will only be a minor for six-ish more years.  Luke would never forgive himself if he didn't do everything he could to be a good dad to her and form a strong bond.  He would also be using his dad as his parenting role model who probably always put his kids first and more or less lived for them.  

Also, he finally has the relationship he's hoped for with Lorelai.  As always, he tries hard to do all of the right things even though he often feels unsure of what the right thing is.  Luke's very aware of how quickly he could mess up the relationship--you can see this clearly in early season 6.  He doesn't really have long-term relationship experience nor any role model to use, and Lorelai with her baggage isn't the easiest person to be with.  When he can focus all of his free time and attention on her it goes well.  But yeah, I can understand why the wheels come off when April comes along, and I find season 6 Luke is mostly in character

52 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Don't talk to her, don't talk to Anna, it's your fault Anna is mad, don't help me with the birthday, you're a cartoon character, blah blah...

.  So here is my take on this in a nutshell:

1) Luke didn't tell Lorelai it was her fault Anna was mad; in fact if you're referring to the Chinese food scene he specifically told her it wasn't her fault. 

2) IMO Lorelai was super pushy about both the birthday party and the birthday gift.  Luke is an independent guy who wanted to do it on his own.  Sure, it was probably a bad idea and didn't really work out, but I don't think he should have to repeat and repeat again that he has it under control.

3) The cartoon character comment just came out wrong due to above-mentioned social awkwardness and also irritation that Lorelai poked fun at his gift.  She could have been a lot more tactful.  Luke is already sensitive to the fact that he's a bad gift-buyer.  And I know my own daughter at that age would have preferred a gift her dad picked out for her (yes, even a stupid one) than one picked by someone else. 

4) I think Luke was right to still have almost all of his time with April be just the two of them.  Although I do think there should have already been an introduction between Lorelai and April and Anna.

5) Lorelai never should have gone to see Anna by herself even though she was trying to help.  It both made her looked unsupported by Luke to Anna and could have easily compromised his relationships with April and Anna.  At the very least, she should have told him immediately what had been said.  It also ended up hurting her relationship with Luke

Sorry for all the details!  That is all.

Edited June 10, 2018 by shron17
grammar

[stan4]

It's not just what was said but the delivery.  It just shut down conversation and frankly was not inviting to further discussion.  The question was why Lorelai didn't talk to him.  Would you want to?

 

And I agree with all the Luke stunted growth commentary, which is again why one would be a fool to get involved with him.  He's not really ready for grownup relationships.

 

I'd love to see what would happen if I told my wife or gf (after LYING to her for months, btw) to get off my back bc I "can't deal" with 2 situations at once.  Or tell her to put herself on hold bc "it's just too much" on my plate right now.  

That's neither real nor  tolerable.

 

You turn to your partner not turn your back on them.

Edited June 10, 2018 by stan4

[shron17]

I think they had one of those relationships where they were both a little off-center but it mainly worked.  April coming along threw them off but that's not likely to happen twice, or even once really.  Some of what was hurting Lorelai about the situation wasn't Luke's fault.  She was used to having all of his attention and time, and being so extroverted made it hurtful not to be at the center of Luke's relationships.  Since he doesn't mind stepping back he didn't really understand how that felt to her.  I think Luke would be fine with grown up relationships as long as he didn't have a new half-grown daughter and fiance to worry about at the same time.  That situation isn't really comparable to other stressful adult situations, like a couple having a new baby together.

[andromeda331]

Luke was thrown by being a new dad to 12 year old and trying to figure out how do that. He's never really a people person and more of a loner so its not really easy for him connect with 12 year old girl.  Add to that his feelings that he let Jess down and doesn't think he did a good job added to his worries of being a new dad. 

[monkeyunderpants]

I always thought that deep down Lorelai was upset because Luke stepped up completely for April, basically the complete opposite of what Christopher did with Rory.

And as much as I did not want to see them together, I think that Lorelai and Christopher had to explore a relationship in a real way, because they were always hung up on each other.

[KatWay]

I guess my unpopular opinion of the Luke/Anna/April/Lorelai situation is that I had no sympathy for Luke handling things the way he did. He should have told Lorelai immediately, not let her find out, like, a month later. That in itself would have made me break up with a guy tbh in real life. I'm supposed to be your partner, you can't keep stuff like this from me. And then him not stepping up to tell Anna Lorelai should be allowed to meet and talk to April, again a huge red flag. This isn't some random girlfriend you barely know, but a woman you've been friends with for decades and who you plan to marry. Anna's argument was ridiculous in light of that and Luke should have told her that much. Lorelai was completely excluded from this huge new part of Luke's life and he treated her like an afterthought, a complication, rather than someone to share his burden and someone to be a partner for him throughout it. If I were Lorelai I'd also develop huge insecurities about my standing in his life. As a fiancé/e you're supposed to be a priority to your partner and he just didn't treat her like one at all.

now we can argue if that makes sense, considering he'd been in love with her for years and finally got together with her, which, probably not, so I blame the writers, but that's how their relationship was portrayed. Although a lot of it made no sense, Anna especially was basically a plot point whose motivation was pretty unreasonable for a lot of things.

[stan4]

2 months.

Lied for 2 months and it was not like he 'fessed up. She caught him.

[Kohola3]

13 hours ago, stan4 said:

Like.  So much.  Don't talk to her, don't talk to Anna, it's your fault Anna is mad, don't help me with the birthday, you're a cartoon character, blah blah...

Well call me skeptical but I don't consider this "yelling and screaming". I call this someone being honest about his feelings of insecurity with someone who should acknowledge those feelings.

LUKE: Because the minute you get involved in her life, it'll be all over for me.
LORELAI: What that's ridiculous.
LUKE: No, it's not ridiculous. You're colorful and funny. You're practically a cartoon character. Kids love you. I wouldn't hang out with me either after meeting you.
LORELAI: Luke!
LUKE: She'll like you better. That is just a fact.

[marineg]

I think @stan4 was referring to the part you did not quote, at the beginning of the discussion:

 

LUKE: I mean as a birthday present for April.
LORELAI: April who?
LUKE: Come on, it's cute.
LORELAI: Um, yeah. I don't think it's quite right.
LUKE: It's girly. It's got cats on it.
LORELAI: Oh, well, if it's got cats on it…
LUKE: April likes cats.
LORELAI: [small laugh] Yeah, but it's a toiletry kit. It's so hygienic.
LUKE: I saw her use soap on the trip.
LORELAI: Yeah did you see her tie her shoelaces? 'Cause you could get her shoelaces.
LUKE: I think she'll like it.
LORELAI: Luke, it's weird. It says, "happy birthday, now go clean yourself up."LUKE: If she doesn't like it, I'll get her a follow-up gift.
LORELAI: Why not just get her the perfect gift right up front?
LUKE: Why couldn't that be the perfect gift? You don’t know.
LORELAI: I know girls. It's not the right gift. Hey, you know there's a store, a few blocks down that has great stuff. I could take you there and show you 50 things I know she'd like. Some of them may even have cats on them.
LUKE: I think I'm gonna get that.
LORELAI: Come on Luke I can really help you here.
LUKE: I’m not saying you can’t, I know you're an expert, but I need to do this. 
LORELAI: Then do it. I'm just saying, let me be part of it.
LUKE: No.
LORELAI: Why?
LUKE: Because it's too soon.
LORELAI: Why is it too soon?
LUKE: Because the minute you get involved in her life, it'll be all over for me.

 

In this part, Lorelai was trying to help him pick a gift for his daughter, because she has more experience, and wants to share it. She jokes with him, not trying to push in, just suggesting other things. But Luke is forceful, especially when when she asks to be a part of it, and he says no.

[andromeda331]

Its a little weird that Luke thinks April will like Lorelai more and not be interested in him. Sure Lorelai's good with kids. But April's been having fun hanging out with him. I see her like both. Maybe Luke a little more since he's her dad. Plus he chose to get involve with her life when he didn't have too. 

[Kohola3]

37 minutes ago, marineg said:

But Luke is forceful, especially when when she asks to be a part of it, and he says no.

But, again, I don't consider this "screaming and yelling".

[marineg]

47 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

But, again, I don't consider this "screaming and yelling".

It's just semantics. It may not be the literal definition of screaming and yelling, but the meaning is there. Being forceful, imposing your will, not allowing the other to have a say...

Edited June 10, 2018 by marineg

[Kohola3]

Well, I tend to take things literally, especially in print.  I have no auditory clues to judge what the other person might "really" mean.  Yelling (defined as a loud, sharp cry, especially of pain, surprise, or delight; a shout) and screaming (defined as a long, loud, piercing cry or cries expressing excitement, great emotion, or pain.) is not what we saw.  And describing the exchanges that way assigns a whole different impression of the character. 

If that's not the literal description of the conversation then I believe the rhetoric should reflect that.  My opinion, of course.

[marineg]

3 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Well, I tend to take things literally, especially in print.  I have no auditory clues to judge what the other person might "really" mean.  Yelling (defined as a loud, sharp cry, especially of pain, surprise, or delight; a shout) and screaming (defined as a long, loud, piercing cry or cries expressing excitement, great emotion, or pain.) is not what we saw.  And describing the exchanges that way assigns a whole different impression of the character. 

If that's not the literal description of the conversation then I believe the rhetoric should reflect that.  My opinion, of course.

Well, we may be writing, but GG is a television show. Meaning that there is no written word. There are auditory clues. I personally said that he was forceful and domineering, and agreed it may not be exactly screaming and yelling. But we're not talking about what we said, but what Luke said. Like in most of his interactions with Lorelai post-April. Telling your future wife "no" when she asks to be a part of your daughter's birthday, as a way to be a part of her life, is wrong. You talk about Lorelai not sharing her feelings and him not being able to read minds, well, it seems that she shared her feelings and he still said no. She may not have shared them every time. I grant you that. But when she did, he rebuffed her. Again, you talk of there not being auditory clues in the written word, but for Luke, there were some. When Lorelai sadly answers she's fine or when she avoids eye contact with him because she doesn't feel like she can speak up, that's clues that Luke should have picked up on. And he didn't.

[Kohola3]

3 minutes ago, marineg said:

Meaning that there is no written word.

You misunderstood. I am talking about what is presented on the forum in written word.  My reaction was to the "yelling and screaming" comment.

[marineg]

I get that. I only said that "yelling and screaming" were semantics and that we should look to more the intention behind the comment (ie my previous post) and not to the literal definition of the word.

Edited June 10, 2018 by marineg

[Kohola3]

Hyperbole?

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

But, again, I don't consider this "screaming and yelling".

I thought Luke's response was warranted, given how relentless Lorelai was being. I get that she's hurt that he won't really involve her with April. But it was clearly important to him to pick the present out himself. And she wouldn't back down. I found it really rude and obnoxious. 

Lorelai often does that, "I know more than you" crap and it drives me mad. She knows more about kids than Luke, Chris, Sookie, etc. We get it. But - A. She's certainly not a perfect parent and B. It's just arrogant to try to force your "expertise" on someone who didn't outright ask for it. 

She's presumptuous and just tries to stream roll people with her sage advice. Luke snapped because it was the only way to get her to back down. 

[shron17]

On 6/6/2018 at 4:25 PM, marineg said:

And saying that she should have let him find his way with his daughter and that that was the most important thing is correct, but it's also what Lorelai did for months.

Again, I don't understand.  It is a contradiction to say it's most important to let Luke find his own way with his daughter but that he's wrong to tell Lorelai it's too soon when she asks to be included. Luke just told Jess in Philly that he likes April but he thinks she just tolerates him.  Also, asking to be included with April is not the same as telling him how bad you're feeling about not being included.

18 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I thought Luke's response was warranted, given how relentless Lorelai was being. I get that she's hurt that he won't really involve her with April. But it was clearly important to him to pick the present out himself. And she wouldn't back down. I found it really rude and obnoxious. 

Lorelai often does that, "I know more than you" crap and it drives me mad. She knows more about kids than Luke, Chris, Sookie, etc. We get it. But - A. She's certainly not a perfect parent and B. It's just arrogant to try to force your "expertise" on someone who didn't outright ask for it. 

She's presumptuous and just tries to stream roll people with her sage advice. Luke snapped because it was the only way to get her to back down. 

Exactly!  And she did the same thing when she offered to help with the birthday party.  There's a world of difference between being supportive and being obnoxious.

[stan4]

It's definitely harder to see how horrible Luke's behavior is when you look at it through the lens of factoring in Lorelai's ridiculousness.

 

 But bad behavior isn't a comparison. It just is.

[readster]

13 hours ago, stan4 said:

It's definitely harder to see how horrible Luke's behavior is when you look at it through the lens of factoring in Lorelai's ridiculousness.

 

 But bad behavior isn't a comparison. It just is.

I agree, and even in the revival, when it came to April, Luke was always: "She's my kid, so stay over on this side of town." I swear the AS-P just enjoyed writing forced conflict with Luke and Lorelai when it came to April. Sometimes it made sense and other times it came off that Luke was a dumbass about things. 

[andromeda331]

I liked the guitar bag in Rory's Birthday Parties. I thought Rory would like it too. She definitely would have loved books. I'm kind of surprise that Emily hadn't thought of that or that Richard hadn't either given his love of books. I think the suggestion about funky pens and notebooks Rory would have liked too. I really love the scene with Emily and Lorelai in the store. Emily trying to think like a young teenager. And that she really wanted to get Rory a gift she liked. I liked Emily really tried. Of course the fight came later but I really loved Emily and Lorelai in the store together. Lorelai telling Rory later that she actually enjoyed it.  I also really liked and really surprised by Lorelai. Her surprise about the pudding. Seeing how often she brings it up in the episode she was really excited that her mother had a dessert they really liked. She really seemed excited about that. She was getting along with her mother. She seemed to be opening up too. 

[MatildaMoody]

I never bought the way April was introduced. Even if we ignore the whimsical "she's so smart she ran a DNA test and proved he was her father for the science fair" there is no way Luke wouldn't have told Lorelai about it immediately. He has a history of blurting out the truth of things that he thinks she might find uncomfortable. Like, his marriage to Nicole, or his breakdown over feeling like he failed Jess. We are supposed to think that he froze when he saw Lorelai in her wedding dress, but I don't buy it. Sure, he might have frozen up in that instant, but there is no way he would have waited more than a day or two before he couldn't keep it to himself anymore. That was just shoddy writing on the show's part. 

But, once they moved past that, I have to say that I am TeamLuke. He asked for time to get to know his daughter. Lorelai agreed. She agreed to postpone the wedding and she planned to handle all of the cancellations herself. Which make sense, because she and Sookie pushed him completely out of the wedding planning to begin with. He offered to help, she said no. That she was still holding on to that magical June date, is something she should have told him about. She basically set a countdown for their relationship based on an arbitrary date that she and Sookie chose, and she didn't bother to tell him what was going on. 

She lied to him repeatedly about how she felt. She let the town lie for her and never corrected it. She even told her mother that she didn't think the wedding was going to happen before she told Luke. She goes to see Ana without telling Luke - which was insane! Luke had no parental rights at that point, and Lorelai could have seriously jeapordized his ability to see April by doing that. Then she hides from him only to show up at his place of business and have a hysterical meltdown in the street in which she gives him the ultimatum. When he doesn't bite, she runs to Christopher to make absolutely sure there is no going back, or having a rational conversation about their relationship once she had time to calm down. 

And again, I get that the issue with the season was the shoddy writing and we are supposed to be on Lorelai's side, but I just can't do it. At anytime, Lorelai could have broached the subject of feeling left out of Luke's life and how they could move forward. If she felt she absolutely HAD to start a countdown on ending the relationship, she should have made it known that she could only be patient for so long but it shouldn't have been "jump right this minute, or we're done." If she had made an effort to actually TELL Luke how she was feeling, it never would have come down to now or never. 

[Kohola3]

40 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

And again, I get that the issue with the season was the shoddy writing and we are supposed to be on Lorelai's side, but I just can't do it.

Table for two, please.  Well written summary!

[Crs97]

Everything dealing with April is badly done, which was unfortunate because Canessa Marcil is a pretty good actress and could have been an interesting addition if handled properly.

Even in the revival, Luke gets all “she’s mine; I will deal with it myself” because Lorelai tells him he shouldn’t help April out financially and she should just get a job, like she ever made Rory work for a cent when Granddad’s checkbook was handy.  No one was well-served by the storyline, and ASP refused years later to learn from her mistake.

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Everything dealing with April is badly done, which was unfortunate because Canessa Marcil is a pretty good actress and could have been an interesting addition if handled properly.

Even in the revival, Luke gets all “she’s mine; I will deal with it myself” because Lorelai tells him he shouldn’t help April out financially and she should just get a job, like she ever made Rory work for a cent when Granddad’s checkbook was handy.  No one was well-served by the storyline, and ASP refused years later to learn from her mistake.

Yeah that annoyed me when Lorelai said that. She never encouraged Rory to get a job really until after Yale and I’m assuming April was still studying in the revival.

[marineg]

3 hours ago, elang4 said:

Yeah that annoyed me when Lorelai said that. She never encouraged Rory to get a job really until after Yale and I’m assuming April was still studying in the revival.

Even when she was married to Chris, she said she didn't want to change Rory's room into GG's room because college graduates sometimes need to come home for a while. And Chris offered to get her an apartment. There was never an issue in GG that wasn't solved with money.

And it was hypocritical for Lorelai to say poor April couldn't go to Europe when Rory had the privileged of visiting Europe twice before she turned 20, without having to shell out a penny.

[stan4]

We were supposed to take Lorelai's side in the April/wedding/ultimatum deal?

 

Nope.  She should never have lied about being ok with things.  No way I'd take her side.

 

Luke still a total dingus.  Won't take his side either.

[Anela]

6 hours ago, marineg said:

Even when she was married to Chris, she said she didn't want to change Rory's room into GG's room because college graduates sometimes need to come home for a while. And Chris offered to get her an apartment. There was never an issue in GG that wasn't solved with money.

And it was hypocritical for Lorelai to say poor April couldn't go to Europe when Rory had the privileged of visiting Europe twice before she turned 20, without having to shell out a penny.

I don't like shows where suddenly someone is rich, and they can do whatever they want/they're taken care of. Maybe it's part jealousy now, I'd love to come into a lot of money, but it's too convenient on shows. 

I agree on the way Lorelai talked about April getting a job, too (I think - I only watched the revival once), after Rory got to go twice, all paid for. Once sleeping in hostels, the second time in fancy hotels. So it was with her grandmother, but it was still a really nice Summer. Then she was grumpy, because she and Logan were supposed to travel around Thailand and other countries together, all paid for by him, I'm guessing. Lorelai got the $50,000 that Richard had put aside for Luke to expand his business, so that she could improve the inn, and not lose Michel. She could have given some money to April, if she's doing that well. She and Luke are supposed to be a team, and I would have thought she'd look at April as more of a daughter now. I guess not. :/ There was Luke, all proud of Rory, and Lorelai just didn't seem to feel the same way about April. I might not be remembering correctly. I know that someone will tell me if I'm not. 

[Frelling Tralk]

I don’t think that Luke ever wanted Lorelai to co-parent with him as a team, he was always very insistent that ‘April is mine, I got this’, and firmly answering no when Lorelai asked if she could be a part of his life with April, and you see Lorelai quickly shutting down in response every time. I think that Lorelai would have been more okay with it in season 6 if he had explained that he was only just getting to know April, and so for the time-being he wanted it to be just the two if them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father, but instead it always came across that he just point blank did not want Lorelai involved with the part of his life with April at all, and I always thought that was pretty weird and unfair on Lorelai. It must have been so awkward post-series when him and Lorelai started living together and April came to stay with them. In the revival we see that Lorelai hardly knows what to say to April, the two of them are very awkward and just don’t get one another’s humour, so I wonder if Luke had continued asking Lorelai to make herself scarce as April was growing up whenever she was staying over?

I get the feeling that Luke would not have been at all happy if Lorelai had suggested that she give some of her own money towards April’s trip, Luke never really allowed Lorelai to look at April as a daughter, it didn’t seem like he wanted the two of them to have anything to do with one another 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[readster]

24 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I don’t think that Luke ever wanted Lorelai to co-parent with him as a team, he was always very insistent that ‘April is mine, I got this’, and firmly answering no when Lorelai asked if she could be a part of his life with April, and you see Lorelai quickly shutting down in response every time. I think that Lorelai would have been more okay with it in season 6 if he had explained that he was only just getting to know April, and so for the time-being he wanted it to be just the two if them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father, but instead it always came across that he just point blank did not want Lorelai involved with the part of his life with April at all, and I always thought that was pretty weird and unfair on Lorelai. It must have been so awkward post-series when him and Lorelai started living together and April came to stay with them. In the revival we see that Lorelai hardly knows what to say to April, the two of them are very awkward and just don’t get one another’s humour, so I wonder if Luke had continued asking Lorelai to make herself scarce as April was growing up whenever she was staying over?

I get the feeling that Luke would not have been at all happy if Lorelai had suggested that she give some of her own money towards April’s trip, Luke never really allowed Lorelai to look at April as a daughter, it didn’t seem like he wanted the two of them to have anything to do with one another 

You summed things up perfectly and even goes to point out that the Ps still wrote that season 7 not only didn't happen, but everyone on the show got stuck in an 8 year void. They might have all gotten older and so forth. However, this was very glaring, especially when it happens within the first 5 minutes of the summer episode. Even April going off as: "I'm 22 now." She has more of a relationship with Rory, who is still 8 years older than her. Yet, Lorelai had no relationship, what's so ever with April in 8 years? That Luke continued to be: "She's mine, I got it." Bullshit! Same with Lulu saying she wanted to have kids with Kirk after being married almost 10 years and were now in their 40s? That Taylor wanted a septic system back after he kicked it out over a decade ago and even made it a point in that episode. People didn't move forward on the show, they either got stuck or went back in time and forgot things. At least the Ps did.

[shron17]

40 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I think that Lorelai would have been more okay with it in season 6 if he had explained that he was only just getting to know April, and so for the time-being he wanted it to be just the two if them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father, but instead it always came across that he just point blank did not want Lorelai involved with the part of his life with April at all,

When Lorelai asked to be involved with the birthday gift in season 6 Luke said "it's too soon."  Which means not now.  Also, the rest of that conversation about the cartoon character, as poorly worded as it was, clearly showed Luke was just concerned about forming his own bond with April before including Lorelai.  Lorelai did have a strong negative reaction whenever April's name was brought up in season 6, but was it because she feared Luke would never involve her, because she wasn't involved in the way and when she would have liked, or because there was someone else now he needed to focus on besides her and Rory?

48 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I get the feeling that Luke would not have been at all happy if Lorelai had suggested that she give some of her own money towards April’s trip, Luke never really allowed Lorelai to look at April as a daughter, it didn’t seem like he wanted the two of them to have anything to do with one another 

Well, April wasn't Lorelai's daughter, so I'm not sure why that's a problem.  April was invited to their house and spent time with all of them; the fact that Lorelai and April didn't seem that close were probably personality/generational differences.  And Lorelai did offer money to help April, she just did it in a very nosy, obnoxious way and it was clear Luke was annoyed from the point Lorelai mentioned money, but she kept going.  If she was really concerned and wanted to make sure Luke knew she was willing help financially if needed, she could have just said that without asking questions that really weren't any of her business.

Quote

 

LORELAI: So where would the money for Germany come from?

LUKE: Me.

LORELAI: Really?

LUKE: Where else?

LORELAI: She could get a job.

LUKE: I could swing it.

LORELAI: You sure?

LUKE: Yeah.

LORELAI: She only got a partial scholarship. You had to make up the difference. Now, if she's going to grad school, I mean maybe I could chip in a little...

LUKE: I got it.

LORELAI: [Inhales sharply] Okay.

LUKE: April's mine. I got it.

LORELAI: All right. You got it.

 

[monkeyunderpants]

Also, in addition to "she could get a job," why didn't Lorelai also say, "her mother (or Anna)?"

[shron17]

Yes, it seemed very odd that Anna was never mentioned once in that exchange.  Even though I don't think it was Lorelai's place to weigh in at all concerning April's finances.

[Frelling Tralk]

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

When Lorelai asked to be involved with the birthday gift in season 6 Luke said "it's too soon."  Which means not now.  Also, the rest of that conversation about the cartoon character, as poorly worded as it was, clearly showed Luke was just concerned about forming his own bond with April before including Lorelai.  Lorelai did have a strong negative reaction whenever April's name was brought up in season 6

Perhaps, but I think Lorelai would have been a lot more understanding if Luke had carefully explained that he was still feeling his way with April, this is all very new to him, so would it be okay with Lorelai if he kept it as just the two of them for a while longer. Instead he was being very short with Lorelai and just blanking her every time she tried to get involved in April’s life, he only eventually gave this explanation for why he was being so weird about keeping the two of them separate after Lorelai kept on pushing it, otherwise she would have been left completely in the dark as to what he was thinking 

LORELAI: Come on Luke I can really help you here.
LUKE: I’m not saying you can’t, I know you're an expert, but I need to do this. 
LORELAI: Then do it. I'm just saying, let me be part of it.
LUKE: No.
LORELAI: Why?
LUKE: Because it's too soon.
LORELAI: Why is it too soon?
LUKE: Because the minute you get involved in her life, it'll be all over for me.

It seems clear in that exchange that Luke only eventually explained his reasoning because Lorelai wouldn’t drop it, he wanted to just leave it as no you cannot be involved with my relationship with my daughter, and I think that sort of response from your fiancé would cause anyone to have a strong negative reaction whenever the subject came up. Luke never put in any effort to suggest that he wanted to eventually include Lorelai in his life with April, so saying not yet and it’s too soon just came across as stalling tactics to me, especially when the revival shows that Lorelai and April still have no real relationship with one another. Yes part of that could just be personality differences, but the otherwise very gregarious and sociable Lorelai certainly seemed noticeably awkward around April in a way that she isn’t around people normally, and her later conversation with Luke makes it clear that she is still slightly wary and quick to back off as soon as Luke firmly tells her that ‘April is mine’. That doesn’t indicate that Luke ever became open to including Lorelai, even after him and April had bonded and he was feeling more secure   

 

Quote

Well, April wasn't Lorelai's daughter, so I'm not sure why that's a problem.

I was responding to the post wondering why Lorelai isn’t more of a mother figure to April in the way that Luke was with Rory when the two of them were supposed to be a team, it was always Luke’s choice to keep Lorelai and April separate and treat April as his business alone. Lorelai’s participation in April’s birthday party suggests that she would have been more than happy to co-parent with Luke and be a stepmom to April if that was something that Luke was open too, instead the revival suggests that she still plays no real role in April’s life and the two of them don’t know what to say to one another. Lorelai was always the fun-loving mother figure that characters like Lane and Paris confided in during the original series, but in the revival it’s only when she’s alone with Rory that April has someone who she breaks down and confides in, Lorelai still seems to have nothing much to do with her. I don’t see that as being down to generational differences, that just doesn’t fit with how Lorelai was so comfortable otherwise with young people, I think it was purely because Luke still didn’t want the two of them getting close

Edited June 12, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[shron17]

42 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Perhaps, but I think Lorelai would have been a lot more understanding if Luke had carefully explained that he was still feeling his way with April, this is all very new to him, so would it be okay with Lorelai if he kept it as just the two of them for a while longer. Instead he was being very short with Lorelai and just blanking her every time she tried to get involved in April’s life, he only eventually gave this explanation for why he was being so weird about keeping the two of them separate after Lorelai kept on pushing it, otherwise she would have been left completely in the dark as to what he was thinking 

I think Luke wouldn't have been so short with Lorelai if she hadn't already so thoroughly irritated him in the part of the conversation you left out e.g. see below.  He's just trying to pick out a gift for his daughter.  He knows he's not good at it but he wants it to come from him, and not be something he needs help with.  Also, Luke doesn't have to ask Lorelai if it's okay if he takes the time he needs to get to know his daughter.  And if Lorelai bothered to give Luke's situation a few minutes thought she would already know getting to know April is difficult for him.  If not, she could have bothered to ask and actually listen when he described how he's feeling without making Luke having a daughter all about her feelings, and not at all about Luke.

Quote

LUKE: If she doesn't like it, I'll get her a follow-up gift.
LORELAI: Why not just get her the perfect gift right up front?
LUKE: Why couldn't that be the perfect gift? You don’t know.
LORELAI: I know girls. It's not the right gift. Hey, you know there's a store, a few blocks down that has great stuff. I could take you there and show you 50 things I know she'd like. Some of them may even have cats on them.
LUKE: I think I'm gonna get that.

 

42 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I was responding to the post wondering why Lorelai isn’t more of a mother figure to April in the way that Luke was with Rory when the two of them were supposed to be a team, it was always Luke’s choice to keep Lorelai and April separate and treat April as his business alone. Lorelai’s participation in April’s birthday party suggests that she would have been more than happy to co-parent with Luke and be a stepmom to April if that was something that Luke was open too 

Sorry, I must have missed that post.  But there's really no comparison between the two situations.  Rory lived with Lorelai and her father didn't have much a presence in her life.  April lives with her mother and didn't need a mother figure.  I don't know why Lorelai doesn't have a bigger presence in April's life in the revival; maybe it's because she moved to New Mexico.  But I do understand why in season 6 Luke felt he needed to focus on learning to be a parent to a 12-year-old daughter and a co-parent with Anna, and wasn't able to encourage Lorelai to co-parent with him as well.  Also, even though Luke was a little bit of a father figure to Rory, Lorelai is always firmly in charge of any decisions concerning Rory, and we've never seen Luke try to interfere.

Edited June 12, 2018 by shron17

[shron17]

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

and I think that sort of response from your fiancé would cause anyone to have a strong negative reaction whenever the subject came up. 

Lorelai got a sad, negative look on her face when April was mentioned months before that conversation.  The first time I remember noticing it was in AVV when Luke brought April's bicycle and asked if he could leave it in the garage.  Then again after they got home in the diner when Cesar said that she called.  I always wondered if Luke stopped mentioning April as much when he was with Lorelai because of that.

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

and her later conversation with Luke makes it clear that she is still slightly wary and quick to back off as soon as Luke firmly tells her that ‘April is mine’.

And if Lorelai had actually listened the first 4 times Luke said he had it, and backed off then, there would have been no reason for Luke to say "April is mine."

[Frelling Tralk]

55 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I think Luke wouldn't have been so short with Lorelai if she hadn't already so thoroughly irritated in the part of the conversation you left out e.g. see below.  He's just trying to pick out a gift for his daughter.  He knows he's not good at it but he wants it to come from him, and not be something he needs help with.  Also, Luke doesn't have to ask Lorelai if it's okay if he takes the time he needs to get to know his daughter.  And if Lorelai bothered to give Luke's situation a few minutes thought she would already know getting to know April is difficult for him.  If not, she could have bothered to ask and actually listen when he described how he's feeling without making Luke having a daughter all about her feelings, and not at all about Luke.

I agree that Lorelai was being pushy and obnoxious in the gift-buying scene, but I think she was only trying so hard because she wanted to be included with April more, and so she saw that as her chance for them to pick out a gift together. Luke saying that he needs time to get to know his daughter is fine, but personally I think that he did owe Lorelai an explanation when it come to being so determined for the two of them to never meet. Yes he had every right to get to know April on his own terms, but he still had a responsibility to Lorelai as well as his partner. Luke having a daughter only became all about Lorelai’s feelings because he kept April hidden from her, he literally wanted Lorelai to only come by his apartment after April had left, he didn’t want Lorelai and April to physically meet at all, he didn’t even want Lorelai to know of April’s existence at first. That’s not okay when you’re in a relationship with someone imo, and it’s bound to cause tensions with anyone who is being kept at a distance like that 

I think that Lorelai would have been understanding and happy to give Luke space to get to know April if he had actually allowed the two of them to speak and meet up face to face, but also explained to Lorelai that he wanted to take his daughter on days out with just the two of them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father. Nothing unreasonable about that. Instead he was secretive and weird about it, and that was what really hurt Lorelai and drove her crazy. You see it in her response to Rory getting to casually meet April, you see it when she’s watching through the window as the rest of the town all hang out with April in Luke’s Diner while she’s forbidden to go near the kid, and Luke only finally explained his reasoning for keeping Lorelai away after she kept on pressing him on what the issue was. And personally I think his reasoning there was a little skewed, saying you need space to get to know your daughter one on one is one thing, but Luke’s behaviour basically boiled down to freezing Lorelai out completely because he feared that April would lose interest in him and end up preferring Lorelai. And that’s not a nice way to treat your partner 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Katy M]

I don't think most people have a problem with Lorelai attempting to help with the gift.  But, she took it too far when she basically insulted his gift picking out abilities and insisted that he was doing it wrong.

Completely different circumstances, but I once went birthday shopping with a new boyfriend for his four year old daughter.  He'd known her her whole life and he'd already happily introduced me. But, she liked horses so he was picking out a toy horse and he picked one out without a mane that you could brush. So, I suggested a different horse, and he was like "what's wrong with this one?"  I said, "You can't brush its mane."  "Is that important?"  "Clearly you were never a little girl."  "Nope."  He ended up buying her the horse I suggested, but I never in a million years would have argued with him about it.  Plus, I only tweaked, I didn't do a whole 180 with what he was picking, and insult his ideas as a whole.  That's really what Lorelai was doing.

[readster]

Quote

I think that Lorelai would have been understanding and happy to give Luke space to get to know April if he had actually allowed the two of them to speak and meet up face to face, but also explained to Lorelai that he wanted to take his daughter on days out with just the two of them until he felt more comfortable in his new role as a father. Nothing unreasonable about that. Instead he was secretive and weird about it, and that was what really hurt Lorelai and drove her crazy. You see it in her response to Rory getting to casually meet April, you see it when she’s watching through the window as the rest of the town all hang out with April in Luke’s Diner while she’s forbidden to go near the kid, and Luke only finally explained his reasoning for keeping Lorelai away after she kept on pressing him on what the issue was. And personally I think his reasoning there was a little skewed, saying you need space to get to know your daughter one on one is one thing, but Luke’s behaviour basically boiled down to freezing Lorelai out completely because he feared that April would lose interest in him and end up preferring Lorelai. And that’s not a nice way to treat your partner 

How true and something that really made me mad was we never ONCE had a true talk between April and Anna. She was 13 by then and at no point did she call her own mother on her shit saying: "Why did you think he be such a lousy dad?" "He's great and you kept that from both of us all my life." Of course, I don't think AS-P could write anything that good, because she even said she used April to keep Luke and Lorelai apart. Something we also missed was April getting to know her Aunt and other Uncle who were in the same town. Especially after Luke introduced April to Jess at his book store opening. Hell, even Milo said he wanted more interaction between Jess and April and felt it was a missed opportunity. It would have been more organic instead of: "April is mine and no one can have her and I can't tell anyone about her because Anna will take her away!" 

[shron17]

38 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Luke having a daughter only became all about Lorelai’s feelings because he kept April hidden from her, he literally wanted Lorelai to only come by his apartment after April had left, he didn’t want Lorelai and April to physically meet at all, he didn’t even want Lorelai to know of April’s existence at first.

I think Lorelai is the kind of person who tends to make  a lot of things about her and her feelings, especially in situations where she has a strong emotional response.  She does it in all of her relationships throughout the series, probably somewhat less with Rory.  The first example of this that popped into my head was the Thanksgiving dinner when Rory admitted she applied to Yale, but there are many others.  Sure, Luke made mistakes in not telling her about April at first, and he does tend to be a little closed off and could have tried to be more open about why he was going about it the way it was.  But if Lorelai had at any time been able to step back and try to see the situation through his eyes instead hers, and actually asked him how he felt and listened, I think there could have been a much better outcome.  

[tarotx]

Here's ASP's take

Quote

Amy on Lorelai and Luke: “We’ve got a lot of Luke-Lorelai stuff we’re playing this year. A lot of ups and downs and twists and turns for them, in getting these kids to the altar. And we’ve also got Rory and Logan too, they’re having a tumultuous year also. They’re working their way back together. In [‘Friday Night’s Alright for Fighting’] Logan came through for her in a way she needed. He stepped it up a notch in that episode. That’s their reconciliation. For now.

“We brought Luke’s daughter in not so much to play ‘Oh my God, there’s a long lost daughter,’ but more to play, ‘Who are Luke and Lorelai to each other?’ They’re two mid-thirties people who have built very independent lives, needing no one, they’ve got their own homes, their own businesses; they’ve got things just the way they like them. They’re incredibly independent and strong-willed and stubborn, and those are tough lives to mesh.

“The daughter thing was just a way to tap into an aspect of Luke that makes things interesting for the Luke-Lorelai relationship. Luke is very duty-bound and honor-bound and he feels great responsibility to family, even though family is something he scoffs at a lot. He’s also a very single-minded, tunnel-vision person. So he’s going to feel he’s got to take care of this responsibility before he can take care of any other responsibility. Right or wrong, it’s who he is.

“It’s a great device for us because [the daughter plot] taps into that without bringing in another woman or another romance, because nobody’s going to believe that. These two people are meant for each other, the only think keeping them apart right now is their own baggage.

“And Lorelai, being an incredibly independent, proud person, she’s not a pusher. She’s not going to say, ‘But what about me?’ It’s sometimes their own lack of communication abilities that have kept them single this long, and that causes our conflict -- so we don’t have to bring in the big elephant or the earthquake or ‘We’re trapped in an elevator’ or someone’s in a coma.”

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2006/02/theyre_slippin_.html

4

[Taryn74]

16 minutes ago, tarotx said:

They’re two mid-thirties people who have built very independent lives,

Mid-thirties?  Did Amy even watch her own show?  >_<

[ghoulina]

I think it's interesting that Lorelai was so hurt about Luke not letting her get involved with April, when she basically told Max he was to have no involvement with Rory. Not saying either of them are right, but Lorelai seems to suffer from extreme tunnel vision sometimes. 

[stan4]

Wait, wait, wait.

 

So Lorelai is to blame bc she did not communicate effectively and convey her feelings honestly...but she's just supposed to magically know why Luke is being rude or  needing to take extra time or compartmentalize (basically be a total weirdo and jerk) re: April?

 

Taken on the face of it, I'd be hurt and mystified, too.

56 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I think it's interesting that Lorelai was so hurt about Luke not letting her get involved with April, when she basically told Max he was to have no involvement with Rory. Not saying either of them are right, but Lorelai seems to suffer from extreme tunnel vision sometimes. 

I agree with this, but I also think it is different bc of the ages of the kids.

 

But I agree it's a double standard.  Double standards are soooo Gilmore, though.