One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[andromeda331]

I love that DVD player scene with Emily and Lorelai. How excited Emily was and excited when she spotted a musical she loved. Lorelai's little smile when Emily said that and heading upstairs. I also liked Lorelai asking Emily what she did when Richard's out of town. It was unexpected but kind of nice to learn what Emily did with her time.

I love that scene with Paris as the new editor of the Yale Daily News informing Logan that she wasn't afraid of his family or cat. I really wish we had a couple follow ups like Paris threatening to fire him if his article is late, actually firing him and maybe a scene between Paris and Mitchum. That would have been gold. Imagine him asking Paris why his son hasn't had a byline "Well, Mr. Huntzberger, I fired his ass months ago when he stopped showing up."

I know I've said a lot Rory's dropping out of Yale. But another part that bugs me is Rory never gets any of the blame or even yelled at for her part in the split between Lorelai and her parents. She knew what she was doing when she went crying to Richard, she knew what she was doing by deciding to stay with them, how it would hurt her mother and what that would do to the very tenuous relationship. Rory did not care. She asks about her mother only twice first after the meeting which Rory very conveniently doesn't go to and tell her mother herself or being there with her grandparents that she's moving in with (leaving them to deal with Lorelai's anger and bare the brunt of Rory's decision ) and later at the hearing when she sees her mother doesn't show up. Rory never once asks Emily or Richard how they are doing during the break with Lorelai or show any signs she realizes what she did effected them. Rory only leaves after getting upset at Emily laying down the rules and talks about how horrible they were to her.  Rory gets off scot free for hurting her mother, hurting her grandparents by leaving, damaging Lorelai-Emily-Richard's relationship (something she had always tried hard in the past to fix or help), and for acting like spoiled brat.  I really would have love to see at any point especially during Friday Night is Alright For Fighting from Emily or Richard point that out to Rory. They risk their relationship with their daughter to help Rory only for her to bolt when they started laying down the rules.                           

Edited March 24, 2018 by andromeda331

[Bringonthedrama]

20 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Rory never once asks Emily or Richard how they are doing during the break with Lorelai or show any signs she realizes what she did effected them.                  

I just watched the episode where Rory has moved out of the Gilmore Mansion while Emily is out, Richard is stunned when he comes home to no Rory and no Emily, and Lorelai finds a very upset Emily interested in buying an airplane.  It struck me that Lorelai looks sad as Emily rants to the point of tears, as it's obvious that Emily is re-living the pain of Lorelai moving out.  Lorelai - 16 years older than Rory who is no longer a child - won't even offer a simple, "I'm sorry you were hurt then, and now" or "I was wrong for the way I handled things when I left."  All she would say about herself was, "You didn't lose me." I honestly think Lorelai never gave a moment of consideration before that moment that what she did really effected them. Lorelai did her best to raise Rory to think and behave like the ideal (academically talented, no bad behavior) version of herself, so it's not surprising Rory would not consider the impact of her behavior on Emily and Richard when she acts out. Also, I find self-involvement in a 20/21-year-old more forgivable than I do when it's seen in a person of the late 30s/early 40s. 

Then, Lorelai goes rushing into Luke's with the joyous news that "Rory's back." He looks very serious/sober (because he's just found out that he has a daughter) and Lorelai talks at him as she grabs food, tells him they can now set a wedding date, and then rushes back out again.  She doesn't even give him a moment to take in what she's saying and respond. I saw some Emily in her there. When things aren't going their way, Emily, then Lorelai, and now Rory, can't deal with it.

[Frelling Tralk]

I really hated how they wrote Rory as such a brat during that time, and then had her attempting to bond with Lorelai by bitching to her about how she gets what she’s been saying about ‘those people’ now. It was so short-sighted to talk about her own grandparents like that when they had provided a furnished poolhouse for Rory, and then she leaves the moment she doesn’t get her own way with having Logan over. Like even the most liberal grandparents (which Emily and Richard hardly were!) would have been cool with their barely out of her teens granddaughter having sex in their house... Most young girls of Rory’s age wouldn’t have even dreamed that it would be seen as acceptable in the first place

I really wish that Lorelai had been more sympathetic to Emily in that dispute, and addressed how ungrateful Rory was being. Instead all she does is try and bond with Rory’s unfair complaints by saying that she had it even worse when it come to her parents disapproving of her sex life (umm maybe because you were underage and got pregnant at 15, it’s not like Emily was exactly wrong to freak out and think that you weren’t adult enough to be having sex!) And when Emily is near tears in the airplane at how proud Lorelai would have been at the way that Rory spoke to her, Lorelai never exactly seems disapproving of Rory, all she really says is that Rory is back on track now and should have stayed at Yale all along, so you can’t compare it to her leaving home at 16. Emily’s hurt clearly wasn’t about Rory returning to Yale, it was that Rory had left in the exact same way that Lorelai did in just walking out without a word, and yet Lorelai had nothing to say about how disgustingly bad-mannered her daughter was to just pack up her things like that without even a thank you?

Edited March 24, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Bringonthedrama]

4 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

And when Emily is near tears in the airplane at how proud Lorelai would have been at the way that Rory spoke to her, Lorelai never exactly seems disapproving of Rory, all she really says is that Rory is back on track now and should have stayed at Yale all along, so you can’t compare it to her leaving home at 16. Emily’s hurt clearly wasn’t about Rory returning to Yale, it was that Rory had left in the exact same way that Lorelai did in just walking out without a word, and yet Lorelai had nothing to say about how disgustingly bad-mannered her daughter was to just pack up her things like that without even a thank you?

THIS.  Lorelai is relieved that Rory is getting "back on track" but apparently has an "oh, well she'll get over it" attitude about the hurt Rory caused Emily. She seems to think her parents should just get over the pain first she, and now  Rory, caused Richard and Emily, because Lorelai has never grown up emotionally. 

[MatildaMoody]

I've been thinking about the hurt that Lorelai caused her parents when she left home with Rory. It's this odd thing that the writers will throw in when it's convenient. Lorelai knows all to well how much hurt she caused them because Richard told her. She knows that Emily stayed in bed for a week and was inconsolable when she left. But, she keeps telling this story of them wanting her gone because she was an embarrassment long after finding out how they actually took it. It's not just that though. There was always this crazy inconsistency in the way they interact with each other. For all of the coldness the writers ascribed to Richard, it was obvious that he doted on Lorelai when she was a child. You can see it in those rare moments like when she says "thank you daddy" when he gave her the check at graduation and again when he catches her climbing out her window to avoid having to sit through dinner with her dud of a date at Richard and Emily's. I get that the writers wanted to keep the tension in the story so they would always step away from it when it was close to being resolved. But, at the same time it was enough to give me whiplash with how quickly they would go from making a breakthrough "I am a Kayack, hear me roar" to Emily being cold to her the next morning because she has to cancel Lorelai's wedding party. I do think that so much of the inconsistency in the relationships in this show has to do with the writers not knowing how to keep the characters moving forward. 

[Taryn74]

18 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

For all of the coldness the writers ascribed to Richard, it was obvious that he doted on Lorelai when she was a child. You can see it in those rare moments like when she says "thank you daddy" when he gave her the check at graduation and again when he catches her climbing out her window to avoid having to sit through dinner with her dud of a date at Richard and Emily's.

Agreed.  Also the way he is on the verge of choking up when he tells Rory the story of Lorelai stealing his Yale diploma (?) off the wall of his office when she was 10.  Just little things like that, it presents a picture of Lorelai's childhood and relationship with her parents that is not at all what is described elsewhere.

[chessiegal]

I found GG in reruns by accident when I was at a professional meeting, channel surfing in my hotel room between meetings and the start of happy hour. I was drawn in to the witty, snappy dialogue. I think Lauren Graham did a terrific job portraying Lorelai. Then I realized it was still in production, and started watching new episodes. I have seen every episode so many times that sometimes the sloppy, lazy writing  glares at you. That said, still one of my favorite shows of all time.

[Anela]

11 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I really hated how they wrote Rory as such a brat during that time, and then had her attempting to bond with Lorelai by bitching to her about how she gets what she’s been saying about ‘those people’ now. It was so short-sighted to talk about her own grandparents like that when they had provided a furnished poolhouse for Rory, and then she leaves the moment she doesn’t get her own way with having Logan over. Like even the most liberal grandparents (which Emily and Richard hardly were!) would have been cool with their barely out of her teens granddaughter having sex in their house... Most young girls of Rory’s age wouldn’t have even dreamed that it would be seen as acceptable in the first place

I really wish that Lorelai had been more sympathetic to Emily in that dispute, and addressed how ungrateful Rory was being. Instead all she does is try and bond with Rory’s unfair complaints by saying that she had it even worse when it come to her parents disapproving of her sex life (umm maybe because you were underage and got pregnant at 15, it’s not like Emily was exactly wrong to freak out and think that you weren’t adult enough to be having sex!) And when Emily is near tears in the airplane at how proud Lorelai would have been at the way that Rory spoke to her, Lorelai never exactly seems disapproving of Rory, all she really says is that Rory is back on track now and should have stayed at Yale all along, so you can’t compare it to her leaving home at 16. Emily’s hurt clearly wasn’t about Rory returning to Yale, it was that Rory had left in the exact same way that Lorelai did in just walking out without a word, and yet Lorelai had nothing to say about how disgustingly bad-mannered her daughter was to just pack up her things like that without even a thank you?

I agree with part of this, but her grandparents also acted poorly: going through her stuff, for example. She was over eighteen, she had done her community service, was working at the DAR, and her grandmother was treating her like she was twelve, moving her back into the house, trying to stifle her. They were the ones who moved her into the pool house, against Lorelei's wishes, and didn't set many, if any, ground rules, at the time. 

I do think it stinks, the way she just left. She should have stayed as things were moved out, and faced them, if she expected to be treated as an adult. I like that one dinner, though, where they all show up, and argue, then make up, then argue again - it's normal to me. You get tired of arguing, and don't want to say anything else that's hurtful, think of something amusing, then cycle back to the hurt, then have another laugh, only to end up flaked out. That was too familiar to me. 

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, MatildaMoody said:

I've been thinking about the hurt that Lorelai caused her parents when she left home with Rory. It's this odd thing that the writers will throw in when it's convenient. Lorelai knows all to well how much hurt she caused them because Richard told her. She knows that Emily stayed in bed for a week and was inconsolable when she left. But, she keeps telling this story of them wanting her gone because she was an embarrassment long after finding out how they actually took it. It's not just that though. There was always this crazy inconsistency in the way they interact with each other. For all of the coldness the writers ascribed to Richard, it was obvious that he doted on Lorelai when she was a child. You can see it in those rare moments like when she says "thank you daddy" when he gave her the check at graduation and again when he catches her climbing out her window to avoid having to sit through dinner with her dud of a date at Richard and Emily's. I get that the writers wanted to keep the tension in the story so they would always step away from it when it was close to being resolved. But, at the same time it was enough to give me whiplash with how quickly they would go from making a breakthrough "I am a Kayack, hear me roar" to Emily being cold to her the next morning because she has to cancel Lorelai's wedding party. I do think that so much of the inconsistency in the relationships in this show has to do with the writers not knowing how to keep the characters moving forward. 

 

10 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Agreed.  Also the way he is on the verge of choking up when he tells Rory the story of Lorelai stealing his Yale diploma (?) off the wall of his office when she was 10.  Just little things like that, it presents a picture of Lorelai's childhood and relationship with her parents that is not at all what is described elsewhere.

So much of Lorelai's growing up doesn't make any sense nor do her parents. There are times they showed us how controlling Emily was and how difficult she was. The fight after Rory's Birthday party after Rory invited her to her other birthday party Emily was already cold and distant due to Rory's earlier outburst Lorelai tries to convince Emily to come which leads to them fighting. Ending with Lorelai saying she gives up, Emily responding that if she had a nickel for every time Lorelai gave up Lorelai finishes "then you could pay for the party". Emily was cold and distant and refused to accept her part in the outburst (not talking to Rory about who to invite and just assumed) and it did sound like Lorelai had tried before because Emily who brings it up. But then we see the flashback in Dear Richard and Emily yes Emily yelled but she defend Lorelai to Shrub and Francine the remark about Christopher being a baby, suggesting to send girls like her away (I love Emily's "Girls like who... with the look she gives Shrub). The weird way Emily and Richard treat Christopher while ignoring the person actually raising their perfect granddaughter. Richard was a distant father and he and Lorelai rarely talked but he almost gets choked up telling the story of Lorelai stealing his diploma and letting Lorelai bail on the blind date Emily set her up with plus the speech Lorelai gives him before begging to leave about how seeing her in the window probably brings back all kinds of bad memories and reminders and apologizes for fighting with him last week. There's Emily who thinks she made Lorelai that gross banana on toast that Lorelai doesn't remember. Richard tells her how hard it was on them when she left and how long it took Emily to get out of bed. But Amy never tells us what made Lorelai leave in the first place. Did she have a fight with Emily? Was it following several fights with her mother? Did Emily try to take over with Rory? Fights over how to raise Rory? What was it? There had to be a reason she left. Because she talks about getting the first Christmas party invitation and that if she had gone things would be different. That really makes it sound like some sort of fight or blow up with her parents. But in Dear Richard and Emily, there's no sign of anything like that. Emily yells up for Lorelai but nothing in her tone suggest she and Lorelai just had a blow up and it seems like Emily would have mentioned it when she yelled up to her. Something like 'stop pouting or stop being childish and answer me'. But she doesn't.  There are times Amy wants us to believe Emily and Richard are these horrible people and that Lorelai is in the right. But there are other times when the problems between the parents and their daughter are normal parent and teen stuff. Or Emily and Lorelai have different interests but the exact same personality that neither will budge. Which is it? Most like Amy didn't really plan it out. We never really get a road or path that leads to a better relationship between Lorelai and her parents which is what really should have happened. Even if its not perfect. We got one with Lane and her mother. But Amy refused to give us one with Lorelai and her parents. We get scenes with Lorelai trying to hang with her mother, Emily and Lorelai talking about why their not close in the one where they go to the spa, Lorelai going off on Digger for canceling the launch party because her mother was hurt we get these moments that never ended up paying off.        

[Frelling Tralk]

I always assumed that Lorelai left because she wanted to raise Rory on her own, and Emily kept interfering and acting like she knew better. Lorelai frequently talked about how much she hated that kind of stuffy high society life with pearls and debutante balls, so she wouldn’t have wanted to raise Rory into it, during the series she’s noticeably uncomfortable whenever Rory does show the slightest interest in that world (golfing with her grandfather, hanging out in a limo with Logan and his rich friends).

I didn’t really understand it either when Lorelai said that she thinks that their relationship would have been closer if she had accepted their very first invite to the annual Christmas party. I don’t see how that would have made the slightest bit of difference, Lorelai did eventually start seeing them again anyway every Easter and Christmas for most of Rory’s childhood, and they were still very cold and formal with one another in the pilot episode and had no real relationship. As you say, it wasn’t like Lorelai and her parents had some big blow-up that never got mended because Lorelai didn’t take the first step earlier, it was more just that Lorelai never saw eye to eye with her parents, and of course her parents never fully forgave her for running away and taking Rory with her. One Christmas party wouldn’t have done much to change that

[slf]

15 hours ago, MatildaMoody said:

I've been thinking about the hurt that Lorelai caused her parents when she left home with Rory. It's this odd thing that the writers will throw in when it's convenient. Lorelai knows all to well how much hurt she caused them because Richard told her. She knows that Emily stayed in bed for a week and was inconsolable when she left. 

A month. Richard said Emily couldn't get out of bed for a month after Lorelai left. It always struck me that Emily might've suffered an episode of depression when Lorelai ran away. 

[andromeda331]

One more thing about Lorelai leaving. In Rory's 21st birthday episode Richard, Emily and Lorelai are talking about Rory and how lost she is. Emily refuses to accept that while Richard is certain of it. Emily insists they haven't lost her until Rory comes home pregnant. That makes its sound like Richard and Emily both knew things were bad with Lorelai and that they were losing her. So they knew there were problems with Lorelai? Or that she was lost? Was this something Richard realized then? Is this something Richard realized in hindsight?  This is something neither ever mentioned before. They both always insisted Lorelai was the one who was wrong and bad for leaving.  But for once Richard actually acknowledge things weren't good. Why couldn't we explore that and finally get to the root of issues between Lorelai and her parents? What was going on with Lorelai? Was she having problems? Was she spiraling?         

[stan4]

On 3/25/2018 at 3:41 PM, andromeda331 said:

One more thing about Lorelai leaving. In Rory's 21st birthday episode Richard, Emily and Lorelai are talking about Rory and how lost she is. Emily refuses to accept that while Richard is certain of it. Emily insists they haven't lost her until Rory comes home pregnant. That makes its sound like Richard and Emily both knew things were bad with Lorelai and that they were losing her. So they knew there were problems with Lorelai? Or that she was lost? Was this something Richard realized then? Is this something Richard realized in hindsight?  This is something neither ever mentioned before. They both always insisted Lorelai was the one who was wrong and bad for leaving.  But for once Richard actually acknowledge things weren't good. Why couldn't we explore that and finally get to the root of issues between Lorelai and her parents? What was going on with Lorelai? Was she having problems? Was she spiraling?         

I took it more as that getting pregnant was the ultimate screw-up and the ultimate 'parent fail' in their society - not that they took any responsibility for Lorelai 'spiraling' as a child.

I also took it as Emily not wanting to repeat the mistake of not being too involved or up Rory's you-know-what like 'last time.'

[BlancheDevoreaux]

I'm watching "So... Good Talk" right now. I can't stand Rory in this episode. I get Lorelai being upset about her breakup with Luke.  However, I'm not sure that Emily should shoulder all or even most of the blame.  Christopher, who knew Lorelai was in a relationship the entire time, is the one who really pissed off Luke. Rather than just move on and realize that Christopher was speaking completely out of turn with the assistance of too much scotch, Luke goes off on Lorelai.  Lorelai pushes Luke when he says he needs some time, he gets annoyed, and ends the relationship.  Emily's role in this was to tell Christopher that she thinks he should be with Lorelai and should do something about it. But Lorelai goes nuts on her mom.  Okay, I get that Lorelai wanted to blame someone and lash out at.  Christopher was already in and out of the picture so she can't really go nuts on him so she chooses Emily.  Rory, for unknown reasons and who is supposed to be the sensible one, sides with Lorelai and is a terrible bitch to Emily at dinner. A simple comment of, "That wasn't okay.  You knew mom was in a relationship.  There was no need to try and get Christopher involved." would have sufficed.  Pointing out to Lorelai that Luke acted like an idiot in the first place due to Christopher's comments, would have been smart.  Probably should have waited a bit to point out that Lorelai should have given Luke the time and space that he asked for, but it likely should have been discussed at some point.  The going all nuts on Emily thought was an overreaction.  

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I'm watching "So... Good Talk" right now. I can't stand Rory in this episode. I get Lorelai being upset about her breakup with Luke.  However, I'm not sure that Emily should shoulder all or even most of the blame.  Christopher, who knew Lorelai was in a relationship the entire time, is the one who really pissed off Luke. Rather than just move on and realize that Christopher was speaking completely out of turn with the assistance of too much scotch, Luke goes off on Lorelai.  Lorelai pushes Luke when he says he needs some time, he gets annoyed, and ends the relationship.  Emily's role in this was to tell Christopher that she thinks he should be with Lorelai and should do something about it. But Lorelai goes nuts on her mom.  Okay, I get that Lorelai wanted to blame someone and lash out at.  Christopher was already in and out of the picture so she can't really go nuts on him so she chooses Emily.  Rory, for unknown reasons and who is supposed to be the sensible one, sides with Lorelai and is a terrible bitch to Emily at dinner. A simple comment of, "That wasn't okay.  You knew mom was in a relationship.  There was no need to try and get Christopher involved." would have sufficed.  Pointing out to Lorelai that Luke acted like an idiot in the first place due to Christopher's comments, would have been smart.  Probably should have waited a bit to point out that Lorelai should have given Luke the time and space that he asked for, but it likely should have been discussed at some point.  The going all nuts on Emily thought was an overreaction.  

I have to disagree to a certain extent.  It doesn't matter, to a certain degree, what the outcome was, or how it happened.  The fact was that Emily was actively trying to break up L&L.  Just because he was blue-collar, and "not a proper stepfather for Rory."  She tried to control her daughter's life for sheer snobbery purposes.  I would have been mad (if I were either Gilmore Girl) even if nothing had come of it.

[Kohola3]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The fact was that Emily was actively trying to break up L&L.  Just because he was blue-collar, and "not a proper stepfather for Rory."  She tried to control her daughter's life for sheer snobbery purposes.  I would have been mad (if I were either Gilmore Girl) even if nothing had come of it.

I was furious with Emily.  Still am.  She stepped way over the line and I would have taken the line that Rory took as well - if someone had knowingly done something to deliberately hurt a loved one who was so obviously happy I would have turned into a wolverine.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

Not saying she shouldn't have minded her own business.  However, blaming her for EVERYTHING is ridiculous.  Christopher acted like an ass, Luke overreacted, and Lorelai was too pushy.

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Not saying she shouldn't have minded her own business.  However, blaming her for EVERYTHING is ridiculous. 

Well, OK, but none of the consequences would have been manifested at all if Emily hadn't stuck her big nose into Lorelai's business.  No ass, no overreaction, no pushy.  She was the catalyst of the chain reaction.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

That doesn't change the fact that blaming it all on her, especially with how Rory and Lorelai acted wasn't immature.  Lorelai never admitted or was told that she behaved like an obsessive freak not giving Luke space.  No one pointed out that Luke freaking out on Lorelai like he did was a complete overreaction.  They might have had a falling out with Chris, we don't really know since he was only rolled out for one plot point or another.  But Rory giving her grandmother the silent treatment - really, who does that at 20 years of age anyway? - instead of just talking to her and saying that it wasn't okay that she did that, that she (Rory) would continue coming to dinner but their relationship was strained, and also telling her mom that maybe she should use this as a learning experience and not be so dang pushy as if everything must always be on her timeline was a rather immature and not well thought out reaction.

[Crs97]

I don’t know that I think Luke overreacted all that much.  Lorelai actively lied to him about spending the night with Christopher and came clean only when she knew she was about to get caught.  The night just gets worse from there and I don’t blame him for leaving.

I had forgotten that Emily fired the wedding planner for the messed-up seating plan and Lorelai never admitted she was the one who changed it.  Puts her disgust with Logan for endangering the maid’s job in a new light.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Not saying she shouldn't have minded her own business.  However, blaming her for EVERYTHING is ridiculous.  Christopher acted like an ass, Luke overreacted, and Lorelai was too pushy.

I'm not saying it was all her fault.  Christopher didn't have to act on her advice.  Luke didn't have to get upset (not saying whether he should have or not, just sayng he didn't have to).  But, that's not the point.  Emily was the catalyst for the whole thing. And she did it on purpose.  If she had said something to Christopher, just nostalgically, about how she would always be sad that Lorelai and Chris hadn't made it work, and Chris did the same thing with that innocently meant statement (it's innocent in my  made up scenario), the result would have been the same, but the malice wouldn't have been there.  On the other hand, had Chris not done anything about her remark, but told Lorelai what Emily said, she should still be ridiculously mad at her.  It's not about the result, it's about the intent.

[chessiegal]

I found the whole story line about Lorelai not telling Luke about the drinking night with Chris after Straub's death an interesting set up as Lorelai was inclined to tell Luke the truth when she and Rory were having breakfast at Luke's. Rory was the one who told Lorelai it wasn't something Luke needed to know. And things went down hill from there. As the writers intended.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I was furious with Emily.  Still am.  She stepped way over the line and I would have taken the line that Rory took as well - if someone had knowingly done something to deliberately hurt a loved one who was so obviously happy I would have turned into a wolverine.

So am I. She stepped over the line and for no other reason then for herself. She didn't care that Lorelai was happy with Luke. She didn't care how she felt, her feelings or anything at all. All Emily cared about was herself and was doing it for herself when she went to Christopher. She doesn't even really care about Christopher either or whether she thinks he'd be better for her daughter. She pretty much says that but all that mattered was Christopher had the right breeding. That's it.  Then when it blows up in her face Emily has the nerve to be angry because Rory is upset with her. How dare Rory be angry at her grandmother for interfering in her mother's relationship, hurt her mother, Luke and for no other reason then for to make Emily happy.  She still can't understand why Lorelai doesn't want to see her after she and Luke got back together. Storming into scream at Luke in his place of business. Remarking to Richard that Lorelai got her "greasy" diner guy back and still not understand why her daughter was upset. Not to mention the Friday night dinner where Emily basically insults Luke the entire time and Richard takes him golfing and tries to take over his life. So Luke would look respectable to their friends. They really turned Emily and Richard (Emily mostly) into assholes.   

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm not saying it was all her fault.  Christopher didn't have to act on her advice.  Luke didn't have to get upset (not saying whether he should have or not, just sayng he didn't have to).  But, that's not the point.  Emily was the catalyst for the whole thing. And she did it on purpose.  If she had said something to Christopher, just nostalgically, about how she would always be sad that Lorelai and Chris hadn't made it work, and Chris did the same thing with that innocently meant statement (it's innocent in my  made up scenario), the result would have been the same, but the malice wouldn't have been there.  On the other hand, had Chris not done anything about her remark, but told Lorelai what Emily said, she should still be ridiculously mad at her.  It's not about the result, it's about the intent.

I could see Emily making a remark to Christopher and he ran with it. That would make sense. I also could see Emily getting nervous or scared when Luke and Lorelai started dating and worrying as they become more serious. She was worried when Gran tried to give Lorelai money from Rory's trust fund to pay for Chilton that Lorelai would stop coming around because she wouldn't need too. I could see Emily being scared this would happen. She's never really believed over the series that without strings Lorelai would never chose to spend time with them. With Rory drawing near to graduating from college Emily's losing the only strings she ever had money. Luke had enough money to loan Lorelai to help with the Dragonfly. With them heading towards marriage and she might worry about getting cut out of her life or Lorelai just simply being busy.

[Anela]

Luke overreacted in regards to Lorelai, I think, because she made it clear she was in love with him. He hasn't done anything to deserve that sort of treatment from Emily or anyone else, so that's what bugs me. 

I don't like seeing Lorelai panic so much, but she'd just told Emily, the night before, that she did think she'd like to be married - and Emily knew she was talking about Luke. That is so damned sad. 

[Kohola3]

7 hours ago, Anela said:

I don't like seeing Lorelai panic so much, but she'd just told Emily, the night before, that she did think she'd like to be married - and Emily knew she was talking about Luke. That is so damned sad. 

If Emily had truly cared about her daughter, that would have been the time to 'fess up and tell that she'd invited Christopher to the vow thing.  At least Lorelai would have been prepared.  But Emily's haughty selfishness allowed the whole debacle to unroll and then get all huffy when people were angry with her about it.

[FictionLover]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

If Emily had truly cared about her daughter, that would have been the time to 'fess up and tell that she'd invited Christopher to the vow thing.  At least Lorelai would have been prepared.  But Emily's haughty selfishness allowed the whole debacle to unroll and then get all huffy when people were angry with her about it.

Emily going to Chris happened after she told her. That’s why she went.

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

Emily going to Chris happened after she told her. That’s why she went.

But when Emily was getting dressed for the ceremony, there was this exchange:

Emily talking dreamily:   Well, it certainly feels like a real wedding. After all, we've been separated for months. I'd almost forgotten what it was like to have a man around the house. Oh, God, I missed him. It's a wonderful thing to have a husband, a partner, somebody who's always there. Oh, Lorelai, don't you think you'll ever want to be married?
Lorelai (smiling) : Well, um - [smiles] actually, I do.
Emily (returning to normal stony face and snotty tone): Well, that's nice.

Would have been a nice time to take into account her daughter's wish for happiness and prepare her for the fact that she'd invited Christopher to come and break up Luke and Lorelai within the next hour.

[ghoulina]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, Katy M said:

I have to disagree to a certain extent.  It doesn't matter, to a certain degree, what the outcome was, or how it happened.  The fact was that Emily was actively trying to break up L&L.  Just because he was blue-collar, and "not a proper stepfather for Rory."  She tried to control her daughter's life for sheer snobbery purposes.  I would have been mad (if I were either Gilmore Girl) even if nothing had come of it.

I agree with this. Even if Chris knew that it was not a good idea and did absolutely nothing, that doesn't negate the fact that Emily went behind her daughter's back with the intention of breaking up her relationship. Luke's reaction is on him. And Christopher's choices are all him. But Emily is accountable for her own actions as well. I'd also be mad no matter what. 

And I don't think anyone is naive enough to think the entire issue was Emily's fault. But....not to sound grade school....she started it. Beyond that, I think she owes more to Lorelai than Christopher does. Emily is her MOTHER. She should support her child and want her to be happy. Chris is a flighty loser who has been in and out of their lives from the start. They know this. For him to get drunk and be obnoxious, well, it's not a huge surprise. Emily has a controlling snob before; but this was, by far, the worst she's ever done. I think everyone was shocked, including Richard. 

[FictionLover]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

But when Emily was getting dressed for the ceremony, there was this exchange:

Emily talking dreamily:   Well, it certainly feels like a real wedding. After all, we've been separated for months. I'd almost forgotten what it was like to have a man around the house. Oh, God, I missed him. It's a wonderful thing to have a husband, a partner, somebody who's always there. Oh, Lorelai, don't you think you'll ever want to be married?
Lorelai (smiling) : Well, um - [smiles] actually, I do.
Emily (returning to normal stony face and snotty tone): Well, that's nice.

Would have been a nice time to take into account her daughter's wish for happiness and prepare her for the fact that she'd invited Christopher to come and break up Luke and Lorelai within the next hour.

I don’t think she had invited him at that point. I actually just watched that episode about a week ago. The episode previous to WBB ended with her giving the invite to Chris following her conversation with Lorelai. I thought that’s why she went to him.

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, FictionLover said:

The episode previous to WBB ended with her giving the invite to Chris following her conversation with Lorelai. I thought that’s why she went to him.

Her initial conversation about marriage was when she caught Lorelai holding up the wedding dress in the mirror when Miss Celine was helping Emily to choose her outfit.  After that, Emily went to Christopher.  The conversation above was in the dressing room at the actual event - well after Emily visited the Loser and The Child.

[FictionLover]

6 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Her initial conversation about marriage was when she caught Lorelai holding up the wedding dress in the mirror when Miss Celine was helping Emily to choose her outfit.  After that, Emily went to Christopher.  The conversation above was in the dressing room at the actual event - well after Emily visited the Loser and The Child.

Yes! I forgot about that conversation! I thought you were referring to the picking out a dress conversation and she saw Lorelai looking at a dress on herself. Sorry!

[Kohola3]

12 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

Yes! I forgot about that conversation! I thought you were referring to the picking out a dress conversation and she saw Lorelai looking at a dress on herself. Sorry!

No problem.  Sadly, scenes where Emily drives me round the bend are etched in my brain. I really need to let it go....

[marineg]

Hello again people! Been out for a while. Just binging our *favorite* show and have some thoughts. Or should I say unpopular opinions.

Still hating Dean with a fiery passion. Serious question: does ASP love Dean? I feel like she does. Did she write him on purpose as an emotionally abusive boyfriend? I know a lot of people say that Dean became that way after they introduced Jess in order to contrast the two and make way of the love triangle and subsequent Rory/Jess relationship. But he was that way even before, breaking up with her when she, a 16yo, with complicated relationships with men of every form, didn't say she loved him back after being with him for 3 months (and even though he built her a car, which he seems to think owes his an ILY). Or him calling an ungodly number of times. Or complaining when she has to spend a day building a house to put on her college application instead of spending time with him. Or complaining and trading favours when Rory asked to go to school dances. And even after Jess moved to town, he didn't respect her boundaries, complained a whole bunch, pressured her, etc. I don't think it's a healthy relationship. And they made it look like it was. Young girls and women look up to these shows, and making Dean out to be this, quote, "perfect first boyfriend" when in fact he was not, that's not okay.

[Taryn74]

So much yes, @marineg.

[stan4]

Yeah.

I don't think that opinion is unpopular at all, marineg!!

 

Good call.

 

Not related, but do you think ASP just hates men?

So many of them are written as such complete asshats.

 

 There are some side male characters that aren't complete asshats like Gil or Henry Cho (or even Kirk, depending on how you interpret his kookiness), etc.

But main dudes?  Yecch.

[chessiegal]

Daniel wrote some episodes. Are we to believe he hates men too? I always found the episodes Daniel wrote to be darker and more of a downer.

[ghoulina]

I do think ASP tweaked Dean a bit when Jess came on the scene. But I agree that the insecure, controlling crap was there back in season one. I always point out the house building episode. BUt I do think they dumbed him down, made him more of the "stupid jock", the everyman - in contrast to Jess's smart, city kid. 

[Guest]

My unpopular opinion was that Rory was in the wrong in the House episode. She and Dean had plans and suddenly she cancels them to research extra-curricular activities?  He was wrong about being upset that she wanted to go build the house, but I think that snowballed from her being so inconsiderate. 

[marineg]

47 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I do think ASP tweaked Dean a bit when Jess came on the scene. But I agree that the insecure, controlling crap was there back in season one. I always point out the house building episode. BUt I do think they dumbed him down, made him more of the "stupid jock", the everyman - in contrast to Jess's smart, city kid. 

Sure, I agree with that. But right off the bat, they made him the creepy "I'm watching you kid". They tried to make it cute with the beautiful boy being sweet and a bit rebellious, but it was creepy that he'd been watching her every moment for a couple of weeks before talking to her. Also, wasn't he supposed to be a bit of a bad boy, the type mothers don't like, the "I'm not a joiner" guy (as he said when Rory asked to go to the dance) but ended up being the biggest joiner there was in SH? He was involved in town affairs, town events, playing sports at school etc. They presented him like a Jess but ended up being a Kirk in the making (without the craziness... or not)

 

21 minutes ago, deaja said:

My unpopular opinion was that Rory was in the wrong in the House episode. She and Dean had plans and suddenly she cancels them to research extra-curricular activities?  He was wrong about being upset that she wanted to go build the house, but I think that snowballed from her being so inconsiderate. 

I don't see it as being inconsiderate. She offered to spend time the next day together. Loving someone and being in a relationship means being able to recognise if your problems are more important than you SO's and reacting accordingly. If she was bailing one something important, planned a long time in advance, yes, that would have been inconsiderate. Bailing on a plan made mere hours earlier, plans that had no time or activity determined is not that big a deal. Dean goes on to complain about Harvard, Rory going to summer school three days a week, and him not being able to "kick back and enjoy summer" with his girlfriend. 

I will say this. Rory is the worst. Not like in general, I find her funny and witty and all. But she is the worst planner for someone who supposedly plans everything. She (and Lorelei) enrolled at Chilton without knowing how to pay for it. They enrolled two months after school began, which shows that they were late in their application or something. Rory, who's always wanted to go to Harvard had planned nothing about it, not what not to do in your application like checking every bow for activities or writing bland essays about H.Clinton, nor reaching out to previous alumni, or the most basic thing that is doing extra-curricular activities on top of school work. Out of all the weirdness that is SH, that was the most shocking thing of all. Rory not doing one extra-curricular activity to put on her application and actually being surprised and shocked when Paris told her she needed more than good grades to get into Harvard....

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I will say this. Rory is the worst. Not like in general, I find her funny and witty and all. But she is the worst planner for someone who supposedly plans everything. She (and Lorelei) enrolled at Chilton without knowing how to pay for it. They enrolled two months after school began, which shows that they were late in their application or something. Rory, who's always wanted to go to Harvard had planned nothing about it, not what not to do in your application like checking every bow for activities or writing bland essays about H.Clinton, nor reaching out to previous alumni, or the most basic thing that is doing extra-curricular activities on top of school work. Out of all the weirdness that is SH, that was the most shocking thing of all. Rory not doing one extra-curricular activity to put on her application and actually being surprised and shocked when Paris told her she needed more than good grades to get into Harvard....

I wouldn't expect Rory to have to plan on how Chilton was being paid for.  That would be all Lorelai.  I found it very odd that she was starting after school started also, but I think it was more that she was waitlisted and someone dropped out instead of applying late.

And, she did have one extra-curricular activity.  Actually, I think she had at least 3--the paper, the debate team, and student government.  Plus, she had a host of town activities that she participated in that she could put on her applications. 

What I see odd about Rory is her panic tendencies.  She's a sophomore and realizes that she doesn't have an community service and decides she needs to do 100 different community service stuff right freaking now.  No, Rory. You have 3 years.  You can take a deep breath and space this about a bit.  My point being that I think she was a bit too high-strung and panicy to even consider going an ivy league college.  And I think that came through with her getting all upset over having to drop a class (at the end of the semester which is ludicrous.  If you don't drop it at least before halfway through the semester, you're getting an F, not an I, most places unless you have a health or bereavement reason), not being able to take Mitchum's criticism, having to pay for a study tree, yelling at a professor for giving her too high of a grade because he's sleeping with her roommate (seriously, even if he is, just take the grade, you didn't ask for it).

I'm not even trying to be critical of Rory.  I have the same panic tendencies, though maybe to a lesser degree. But, I know my limitations because of them.  I would never try to be a foreign correspondent, or a bomb defuser, a surgeon, or anything where panic might get somebody killed.

[Kohola3]

A bomb defuser - hee!

[marineg]

Everything you said @Katy M! So point by point. Buckle up, this is going to be long.

 

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't expect Rory to have to plan on how Chilton was being paid for.  That would be all Lorelai.  I found it very odd that she was starting after school started also, but I think it was more that she was waitlisted and someone dropped out instead of applying late.

True for Lorelai. Definitely with you there. But for the application vs. waitlisted, they did say that she fought to get her in, even jokingly offered to sleep with Headmaster Charleston or whoever to get in. It doesn't really scream "my daughter got waitlisted, we have to wait until a spot opens". But maybe.

And I understand that Rory was 16 and it's not her place to worry about money matters. But it's the school she wanted to go. And we know Rory. We know she plans ahead. She doesn't ask her mother for things she can't afford or without a plan. This is the girl who missed her mom's graduation and came back from NY with a bullet point list of punishment ideas. It's the girl who tried to deal with the termite situation in parallel to her mother. She is headstrong and a planner. She wouldn't let her mom deal with it without even worrying a bit. But again, maybe.

 

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And, she did have one extra-curricular activity.  Actually, I think she had at least 3--the paper, the debate team, and student government.  Plus, she had a host of town activities that she participated in that she could put on her applications. 

The debate team and student government came later. And I don't think she was part of a debate team more than she had to for one class like the time she had to do Shakespeare. She wasn't in the theatre program. But that is also a problem of ASP, there isn't enough follow up for us to know exactly. Like all the festivals, we see them once each over the course of the 7 years even though they're every year. Not even a mention later on. After Dean's been to town for well over a two, Rory takes him to the annual dance marathon for his first time. He clearly could have gone the previous year. Or the year before that (they'd been dating for 2 years when they broke up). ASP introduces (usually good and funny) ideas out of nowhere and then drops them the second the episode is over. Like Luke & Nicole's ski trip; that was a huge thing one episode and the next, that is supposedly the very next day, the day were that are supposed to be on said trip, no skiing is mentioned and Luke freaks out about the Jess/Dean.

Sorry, I have a lot of issues. with ASP. She's a genius without follow-up of any kind. I'm a screenwriter, and one of the first things you learn is to keep track of you story, you characters, and your show's timeline. Writer's rooms of TV shows often have and actual written timeline on a whiteboard to keep track of everything that's happened. ASP needs to get on that. Or needs to stop thinking that fans don't really pay attention (ie Kirk not being Kirk at the begging, April's mom being Jess's step-mom, Jess's mom going from being a dead-beat mom to a fantastic/quirky person, Lorelai leaving her parents house anywhere between right away to a year later depending on what the story needs, along with many character timelines that don't add up).

 

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What I see odd about Rory is her panic tendencies.  She's a sophomore and realizes that she doesn't have an community service and decides she needs to do 100 different community service stuff right freaking now.  No, Rory. You have 3 years.  You can take a deep breath and space this about a bit.  My point being that I think she was a bit too high-strung and panicy to even consider going an ivy league college.  And I think that came through with her getting all upset over having to drop a class (at the end of the semester which is ludicrous.  If you don't drop it at least before halfway through the semester, you're getting an F, not an I, most places unless you have a health or bereavement reason), not being able to take Mitchum's criticism, having to pay for a study tree, yelling at a professor for giving her too high of a grade because he's sleeping with her roommate (seriously, even if he is, just take the grade, you didn't ask for it).

True about the panic tendencies and the 3 years to deal with college applications. But really good schools like Ivy Leagues ask a lot of applicants, and applicants who don't have a way in other than a really good application, usually worry very early about those things. Especially those who will need financial aid. Especially those who have been "groomed" by their mothers to go to Harvard since they were 2 years old. (Talk about hypocrisy from Lorelai who complains about the pressure from her own family to go to Vassar...)

And as much as her mother thinks that she taught her daughter to be self-sufficient like she was, to be independent, and a free-thinker, she made her daughter really dependent on people and on people's love. From her mother (not being able to spend 4 hours at Yale alone), to Dean (they had nothing in common apart from them needing to be with someone) to Mitchum (dropping out of YALE after one critique) to her professors (freaking out over a deserved A, or freaking out when she's falling) to Logan (moving in with him at the drop of a hat, freaking out when he points out that she is just as privileged as she is, freaking out when she learns he slept with a couple of people when they were broken up...). She can't deal with criticism, or rejection. 

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, marineg said:

But for the application vs. waitlisted, they did say that she fought to get her in, even jokingly offered to sleep with Headmaster Charleston or whoever to get in. It doesn't really scream "my daughter got waitlisted, we have to wait until a spot opens". But maybe.

OK, I admit I forgot about that.  It does seem weird that Rory wouldn't have had that application in at least 6 weeks before it was due.  But, as for Rory planning for the money, Lorelai may have told her that she had a plan for it.  I don't see any 15 year old, even Rory, questioning the details.  As Lorelai told her in a later episode, she has never let Rory go without anything she needed.  She's always found a way.

[junienmomo]

22 hours ago, marineg said:

But he was that way even before, breaking up with her when she, a 16yo, with complicated relationships with men of every form, didn't say she loved him back after being with him for 3 months (and even though he built her a car, which he seems to think owes his an ILY). Or him calling an ungodly number of times. Or complaining when she has to spend a day building a house to put on her college application instead of spending time with him. Or complaining and trading favours when Rory asked to go to school dances. 

Dean was not a great boyfriend after the first impression. What I missed in the first consideration was Lorelai’s curiously misguided parenting. There were great moments like “everything comes out in moron” but Lorelai missed all the (well-described by marineg) stalkerish tendencies Dean exhibited. As a mother whose daughter was open to coaching and advice, Lorelai should have been helping Rory figure out when enough was enough and she needed to break up with him. I suspect it was a combination of wishful thinking about Dean’s perfection, plus Lorelai’s own inexperience in relationships. Towards the end, of course, the Jess threat arrived, and Lorelai became ‘Dean at almost any cost.’

[marineg]

13 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

Dean was not a great boyfriend after the first impression. What I missed in the first consideration was Lorelai’s curiously misguided parenting. There were great moments like “everything comes out in moron” but Lorelai missed all the (well-described by marineg) stalkerish tendencies Dean exhibited. As a mother whose daughter was open to coaching and advice, Lorelai should have been helping Rory figure out when enough was enough and she needed to break up with him. I suspect it was a combination of wishful thinking about Dean’s perfection, plus Lorelai’s own inexperience in relationships. Towards the end, of course, the Jess threat arrived, and Lorelai became ‘Dean at almost any cost.’

Especially since Lorelai was so not pro-Dean at first, thinking that he was too much like Christopher, that he was taking Rory away from her goals and from Chilton. She should have been on the lookout for those signs. Like when Rory who is SO against the domestic women of the 50s, planned just that type of evening to ask forgiveness from Dean for not being on the same page as him as to what a woman should do with her life.

Speaking of which, I have so many issues with that whole storyline. Rory was in the right. And before some jump at my throat, here's a little about me. My mother is a stay-at-home mom who did a wonderful job and deserves the entire world for dealing with a large family who moved around the world every couple of years. I am a feminist and I believe in a woman's right to choose her life and her priorities. My mother chose her family. She dedicated her life to us. But she wasn't the dinner-ready-for-my-husband type of woman, nor did she walk around in perfectly iron dresses, heals and pearls. She's quirky, independent, brilliant, strong, and is the leader of our clan. So I get that side of things. Not where my priorities are, but I get it. 

However, Dean was basically saying that a woman's place is in the home. Even if she works as much as her husband, her place is in the kitchen, cooking for his dinner. As if men couldn't do it themselves; women love to come home to a home-cooked meal as well. And before you say I'm exaggerating and that he's just a teenage boy, look closely at the show. He was the one who wanted to make the decisions in his relationships (both Rory & Lindsay). The one who thought he was owed something in exchange for his good deeds (ie building a car or taking Rory out to a restaurant against getting an ILY; had the guy been in his 20s or 30s, would he have demanded sex against the car or even the dinner?). He was the one in the relationship who felt his whole world crumble the second his leading (or not so leading) lady went against him and his opinions. 

So no, Rory shouldn't have apologized. And even less in the way she did. That's why I believe Dean is emotionally abusive and a master manipulator. Every time Rory expresses and opinion he doesn't believe in or goes against his wishes, he makes her feel so awful about it that does these grand gestures (ie 50s night, or spending the whole day with him after the Jess/Paris/Rory dinner). And Lorelai should know better. But she was manipulated by Dean just as much. Like any emotionally abusive BF, he behaved perfectly around her people, her mother, so no one would see the signs. But she should have known better.

As bad as Christopher is, he truly and undoubtedly cared about them. He has flaws, and doesn't express his feelings in a humanly appropriate manner (not to mention he's barely there, but that ASP & Co not wanting to pay for David Sutcliffe, otherwise his relationship with Rory would be very different and cold), he never made them do anything they weren't comfortable with or manipulate them as Dean does.

[Guest]

I have so many issues with Lorelai’s reaction to finding out why Dean broke up with Rory in Season 1. So many issues. Like I can see her being understanding of Dean but in a “16 year olds make bad decisions” way. But then when she talked to Rory, her emphasis should have been “there is zero reason why you should feel pressured to love someone or to ever go farther than you’re comfortable with because of a guy’s feelings.” Instead she seemed to be more like “hey, he might have a point.”

But this could have been Lorelai’s general and especially relational immaturity showing through.

[clack]

Dean was mildly narcissistic : he was emotionally needy, he idealized Rory, and had, as they say, "control issues". Jess also had narcissistic tendencies, but of a different sort : he was a poseur.

In fact, both types of narcissistic males would have been very familiar types to someone working in a showbiz milieu -- Dean the control freak would be the director or showrunner, and Jess the poseur would be the actor. This is what ASP drew on in building them as characters -- it was what she was familiar with. That's my explanation, anyway.

[marineg]

43 minutes ago, deaja said:

I have so many issues with Lorelai’s reaction to finding out why Dean broke up with Rory in Season 1. So many issues. Like I can see her being understanding of Dean but in a “16 year olds make bad decisions” way. But then when she talked to Rory, her emphasis should have been “there is zero reason why you should feel pressured to love someone or to ever go farther than you’re comfortable with because of a guy’s feelings.” Instead she seemed to be more like “hey, he might have a point.”

But this could have been Lorelai’s general and especially relational immaturity showing through.

Definitely. I have issues with the character of Lorelai in the way that it was written because although I do think she is a good role model in the way that she made herself into what she is and is successful in her own right (with a caveat being the whole borrowing money on several occasions thing). But in terms of emotional maturity, emotional intelligence, or her way of dealing with relationships, she is the worst. There is not one relationship, be it friends, lovers, boyfriends, clients, or business "partners", that she dealt with in a mature/understanding-of others'-feelings way (and I would love to be proven wrong if any of you have examples!). So not only is she a bad emotional role model, she is also very ill equipped to be interfering in any way in her daughter's relationships. 

But ASP didn't portray her like that though. She portrayed her as a stable yet fun person. I remember a serious Sookie/Emily interaction where Sookie said, referring to Lorelai, "She is the stablest person I know." And Emily quipped, "That's very sad." And that is very sad indeed because ASP is trying to not only make it seem like Emily is a bit a of b*tch, but that Sookie is actually right in recognising Lorelai's stability.

[marineg]

6 minutes ago, clack said:

Dean was mildly narcissistic : he was emotionally needy, he idealized Rory, and had, as they say, "control issues". Jess also had narcissistic tendencies, but of a different sort : he was a poseur.

In fact, both types of narcissistic males would have been very familiar types to someone working in a showbiz milieu -- Dean the control freak would be the director or showrunner, and Jess the poseur would be the actor. This is what ASP drew on in building them as characters -- it was what she was familiar with. That's my explanation, anyway.

Yes and no. Like I mentioned in the past in VERY LONG posts, I hate Dean. Not one thing he does is honourable or good. And again feel free to prove me wrong.

But Jess, who I admit is my favourite of the male lot, is a complicated sort. I do have issues with him, mostly in how ASP treated his exit to her almost-spinoff, and how she undid all the work Jess put in to become a better person, just so she could make a second show.

I don't agree with the poseur analogy. I think that he was just a troubled kid with normal life problems, problems that in any other place in the world would have been recognised and dealt with/treated. But he has the misfortune of moving to SH, where therapy is a thing of fiction although they ALL desperately need it. He moved to a place where his shenanigans (eg. stealing Babette's gnome, or drawing a chalk outline of a body, or stealing all the baseballs) where equated  with being a drug dealer or an actual criminal. Like when he crashed Rory's car (to avoid killing an animal). That was an accident. He's 17. I had a mild car accident at 17 (albeit no injuries). So did he. He did everything right by calling the authorities, getting Rory to a hospital. And yet the WHOLE town treated it like he purposefully drove the car in the Taylor Doose bench to hurt Rory.

He did skip school to go work, which wasn't in anyway cool. But if we put ourselves in his shoes, before Luke, he had no one he could rely on. No mother, no father, no siblings, a distant uncle who smilingly never visited. So when he saw that adulthood was approaching, he needed a backup plan. He needed to make sure that he was the one making his own way. That he didn't need to depend on anyone (here Luke) to survive. So he worked. He made money. He bought a car. Again, not cool, but understandable. Lorelai had a family to depend on who wanted nothing more than to take care of her, but she still dropped out and left home with a toddler to go work as a maid and live in a shed when she was his age. Much less responsible than showing up every three days at school, working 2 jobs, and dating. stable girl.

 

And I'll leave you with this exchange from the post-accident episode.

RORY: What if it’d been Dean, huh? What if Dean had been driving? Would everyone be assuming that it was his fault?
LORELAI: No, because if Dean had been driving there wouldn’t have been an accident because Dean is a much more responsible kid who loves you and would’ve been driving more responsibly.
RORY: How do you know that Jess wasn’t?
LORELAI: Hi. . .it’s Jess.
RORY: Oh, right, Jess is the antichrist, I forgot. He wanted to get into an accident. He was looking for something to hit because he’s a murderer with a death wish and he wanted to kill us both, right?
LORELAI: I know you think that Jess is your friend, but he’s not. He is a completely out of control, really angry kid who has no respect for Luke, who has no respect for me. . .
RORY: It was an accident!
LORELAI: And he was driving!
RORY: So, what, no matter what I say, you’re just gonna choose to blame Jess?
LORELAI: Yes, I choose to blame Jess.
RORY: Just because you hate him?
LORELAI: That’s right! I’m sorry, but when my daughter comes home broken I get to hate the guy who broke her. That’s how it works. He’s gone, I win. You are wearing a cast and I get to hate him forever!