One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't think anyone else gets to define what Rory means by "love."  I actually respect people who take the word a little bit more seriously.  Not that I think Dean did anything wrong by saying I love you.  But, Rory didn't do anything wrong by wanting to be sure of her feelings first.

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Agreed. And I think there's a lot of grey area between committed, adult love and "Oh, I just think about you a lot and my heart races." 

Rory and Dean did end up dating for a very long time. It was pretty serious. I appreciated her not wanting to rush things. 

I agree. Its up to Rory to define the word for her. I don't see how she miss led Dean at all. She never said she loved him. She liked him a lot and did love him later. There's nothing wrong with it. They had only been dating for three months. There's nothing wrong with her not being in love with him at that point or Dean being in love with Rory. It was different for both of them given what Rory said. She did try to explain it was a really big thing because her mother told her father she loved him and Dean doesn't really get it he just points out you don't get pregnant. But that wasn't really her point. Its her mother got pregnant and everything that came afterwards with the Haydens, Lorelai and her parents, her mother not going to college, leaving with Rory and the constant worry and fear that Rory will make the same mistake.  To Dean its probably pretty simply he doesn't have all that baggage. Rory does. He gets mad about her having to think of it and the pro con list comes up. Which is Rory she likes to think about things, make a list. That's how she operates and it makes sense when she's the child of two teens who didn't stop and think of the consequences, they dated, slept together and Lorelai got pregnant. Rory's doesn't want to make the same mistake. She has to stop and think about it.  

[scarynikki12]

I kind of wish Rory had actually made a pro/con list to determine if she loved Dean (or Jess, or Logan, or any of her love interests).  It's one thing to take time and sort out the naturally confusing feelings that she had in the midst of her first relationship but I really want to know if she'd try to convince herself to feel something she wasn't actually feeling just because one column won. 

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I kind of wish Rory had actually made a pro/con list to determine if she loved Dean (or Jess, or Logan, or any of her love interests).  It's one thing to take time and sort out the naturally confusing feelings that she had in the midst of her first relationship but I really want to know if she'd try to convince herself to feel something she wasn't actually feeling just because one column won. 

That would have been a great idea. It would have been interesting if she had done one for all three. I know she made that one in the first episode of season three but I doubt was about if she loved Dean or not because Rory says she's thought about it and thinks she hasn't dated much, the Jess thing was crazy, and that she treated Dean like dirt and wasn't appreciating what she had in front of her. That's not I'm in love with Dean or even I want to stay with Dean.  But did she really love Dean? I don't think that was on the list. Nor did she include her behavior towards Jess. Kissing him at Sookie's wedding when she was still with Dean, trying to get her mother to like Jess, trying to get Jess to like her mother, ignoring calls from Dean, going to hang out at Luke's, skipping school and on the day of her mother's graduation to go see Jess, her jealousy at seeing Jess making out with Shane. There were definitely enough signs there for her if she made that pro or con list to realize she likes Jess more or likes Jess now.  She should have come to the conclusion she needed to break up with Dean not remain with him. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by andromeda331

[Guest]

I view the Rory Dean first breakup as a situation where no one is wrong. They were both justified in their feelings and reactions. And they were both so young!

[Katy M]

I was thinking more about this and Dean had been planning this for at least a few days.  Meaning he had time to think about it. It's kind of like on TV shows when women find out they're pregnant and freak out for a few days and then finally tell the father and get mad that they freak out, without giving them the time they had to process.

[HeySandyStrange]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

I view the Rory Dean first breakup as a situation where no one is wrong. They were both justified in their feelings and reactions. And they were both so young!

Yeah, Dean's reaction wasn't great, but he was an immature teen IN LUV for the first time. Rory, Jess, and the other teens on GG made poor choices and had terrible emotional reactions as well, but for some reason, Dean is vilified more for his stupid teen behavior then Jess, for instance. Stupid teenagers will be stupid, I say.

[tua20782]

On 2/12/2019 at 5:02 PM, deaja said:

I view the Rory Dean first breakup as a situation where no one is wrong. They were both justified in their feelings and reactions. And they were both so young!

I don't blame Rory for having feelings for Jess, but this felt like Rory knew her feelings had changed but she didn't want to be the bad guy and break it off so she just acts horribly so Dean will do it for her and she gets to be the victim. It feels like a pattern of Rory's throughout the series so I may be biased.  Dean isn't perfect but Rory is so passive aggressive it makes me crazy.

[ghoulina]

Dean drove me nuts. I felt like he became clingy and controlling long before Jess entered the picture. And then it just got worse. But he didn't deserve the way Rory strung him along. I 100% believe she knew exactly what she wanted fairly early on, but did let DEAN be the one to end it. She didn't want to be the bad guy. 

[andromeda331]

On 7/18/2019 at 9:29 PM, tua20782 said:

I don't blame Rory for having feelings for Jess, but this felt like Rory knew her feelings had changed but she didn't want to be the bad guy and break it off so she just acts horribly so Dean will do it for her and she gets to be the victim. It feels like a pattern of Rory's throughout the series so I may be biased.  Dean isn't perfect but Rory is so passive aggressive it makes me crazy.

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

Dean drove me nuts. I felt like he became clingy and controlling long before Jess entered the picture. And then it just got worse. But he didn't deserve the way Rory strung him along. I 100% believe she knew exactly what she wanted fairly early on, but did let DEAN be the one to end it. She didn't want to be the bad guy. 

That drives me nuts too. By the second half of season 2 its clear Rory is into Jess. She likes him, she crushes on him, but she will not break up with Dean. The episode when he's calling all the time which yes was way too many times but Rory doesn't do anything to reassure him, talk to him or more importantly break up with him. Lorelai gives Dean good advice to let up which he finally does not but even then Rory doesn't want to spend any time with him. She's rather go hang out at Luke's with Lane where she can see Jess. I'm not saying she has to spend time with him but that would have been a great episode for her to break up with Dean or Dean to break up Rory. Or when she ditches school and misses Lorelai's graduation to see Jess. Or beginning of season 3 when she's so upset to see Jess with someone else or the next episode again when she's upset that Jess is dating someone else. But she still won't break up with Dean. Look at her behavior at the dance-athon up to when Dean finally has enough and breaks up with her and Rory's "What did I do?" Ah, really Rory? Let's see you just spent the last few episodes completely jealous and upset that Jess is dating someone else, and what about your behavior during the dance-athon? As much as I hate Rory-Jess-Dean triangle I hate that Rory doesn't and won't break up with Dean. She keeps stringing him along. I really hate that Dean doesn't break up with Rory long before the scene when he finally does. I really hate that she acts so surprised. Rory doesn't want to be the bad guy so she makes Dean the bad guy.  That's just wrong. Its a crappy way to treat Dean but also Jess. She keeps giving Jess mixed signals. She's clearly into him and shows it but won't break up with her boyfriend. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by andromeda331

[marineg]

@andromeda331 Agreed about everything, and especially about Jess. Rory gets so mad that he is dating someone else put put yourself in Jess' shoes. Remember what it was like to be 16-17? Jess was probably having real feelings for someone for the first time ever, and she's dating someone. Rory kisses him, and then runs away, and he doesn't hear from her in a couple of months. At that age you can have a whole relationship in 2 months. I've said it before and Ir'll say it again: Rory expects everyone to stay exactly where they are while she moves on with her life. She puts down her toys, and is surprised when someone else picks them up. She got mad at Jess for dating the Shane, mad at Dean for moving on with and marrying Lindsey, mad at Logan for sleeping with girls when they were broken up, mad at her mom when she got engaged while she decided not to speak to her, and went back for Jess and Logan after years of being broken up. Even the way she talks to Dean in the revival, I'm sure that if he weren't HAPPILY married, and from the state of her life at that point, she would have been more than happy to pursue him.

Also, I posted a little something on another thread I think a couple of you saw but I'll copy it here as it pertains to the conversation.

Quote

I don't think [Rory] was afraid of Jess hurting her. I think she was afraid of herself, her feelings, and that they didn't coincide with this idea that everyone had of her, herself included. She put this perfect image out into the world; it wasn't just other people thinking that she was a perfect angel, that's who she wanted to be. She wanted to be the easy child to her teen mom, the studious child to make her grandparents proud, the perfect SH girl to her neighbours, etc. I believe that she felt her conception was a mistake and she was determined to prove everybody that they were right to have invested their time and love in her when many would wanted Lorelai not to have/raise the baby.

Jess was unexpected, and in a way, just for her. With Dean, it was the perfect choice, the perfect boyfriend, the guy everybody wants to see their daughters/granddaughters/loved ones with (not me, I don't like Dean but whatever). With Jess, it was a gut feeling, something that struck her and didn't go away. Nobody would have wanted it, or wished it, or approved of it, but those feelings were there to stay.

In a way, I see Logan as a mix of Dean and Jess. He as the proper little rich boy, smart, with a great career ahead, a good family, and a lot of potential in the Gilmore/Yale world. But he was also the bad boy, the trinket thief, the boy who swoops you off your feet and drags you somewhere you don't necessarily want to go but where you find happiness. If it makes sense.

[andromeda331]

44 minutes ago, marineg said:

@andromeda331 Agreed about everything, and especially about Jess. Rory gets so mad that he is dating someone else put put yourself in Jess' shoes. Remember what it was like to be 16-17? Jess was probably having real feelings for someone for the first time ever, and she's dating someone. Rory kisses him, and then runs away, and he doesn't hear from her in a couple of months. At that age you can have a whole relationship in 2 months. I've said it before and Ir'll say it again: Rory expects everyone to stay exactly where they are while she moves on with her life. She puts down her toys, and is surprised when someone else picks them up. She got mad at Jess for dating the Shane, mad at Dean for moving on with and marrying Lindsey, mad at Logan for sleeping with girls when they were broken up, mad at her mom when she got engaged while she decided not to speak to her, and went back for Jess and Logan after years of being broken up. Even the way she talks to Dean in the revival, I'm sure that if he weren't HAPPILY married, and from the state of her life at that point, she would have been more than happy to pursue him.

Also, I posted a little something on another thread I think a couple of you saw but I'll copy it here as it pertains to the conversation.

Well said!

[tua20782]

I dont feel bad for Jess either. I don't care if he was having real feelings for the first time, he knew rory had a boyfriend. He should have gone to her and said hey I like you, is there any chance for you and me instead of the passive aggressive antagonize Dean and rory. My unpopular opinion is the only person I felt sorry for was Dean. He might have been clingy  at times but his problem was in trying  to hold onto something he shouldnt and at the end of both of his relationships with rory he eventually learns his lesson. I thought jess and rory deserved each other cause they were both horrible people. Rory managed to get increasingly worst over the years but that's only because we had to watch her story. If jess had stuck around in the series. he would have never gotten any growth.

Edited July 21, 2019 by tua20782
Double post

[andromeda331]

32 minutes ago, tua20782 said:

I dont feel bad for Jess either. I don't care if he was having real feelings for the first time, he knew rory had a boyfriend. He should have gone to her and said hey I like you, is there any chance for you and me instead of the passive aggressive antagonize Dean and rory. My unpopular opinion is the only person I felt sorry for was Dean. He might have been clingy  at times but his problem was in trying  to hold onto something he shouldnt and at the end of both of his relationships with rory he eventually learns his lesson. I thought jess and rory deserved each other cause they were both horrible people. Rory managed to get increasingly worst over the years but that's only because we had to watch her story. If jess had stuck around in the series. he would have never gotten any growth.

I don't either for the same reason. He knew Rory had a boyfriend and didn't care. He admits that he bid on Rory's basket to tick off her boyfriend and to get her alone. But Rory ends up looking even worse because she too knew she had a boyfriend and still kept being really into Jess and treating Dean like crap. I get that she's sixteen-seventeen during the time and it can be hard when you realize you have feelings for someone who's not your boyfriend. But it dragged out for so long. Rory learns nothing from it. It becomes her pattern. Had she learned from it or it had been the only time she ever behaved that way it wouldn't be a big deal. Yes, it would still be wrong but something you can chalk up to being young. But she goes repeat the same mistakes, keeps cheating on her boyfriends, and wanting someone else and not caring at all. marineq, is right that even when her exs or crushes moves on she gets really upset about that and can't handle it. She's upset when Dean moves on and starts dating Lindsay. Instead of being happy for him and doesn't care at all that he's married when they start hanging out behind Lindsay's back and sleeps with him. After Lorelai catches them and yells at Rory rightly going off on her Rory insists "He's my Dean." Lorelai has to point out that he's Lindsay's Dean. She didn't even go back to Dean because she loved him but she had no other boys interested in her and was lonely, then drops interest in him when she sees Logan and chases him again not breaking up with Dean until he's forced to break up with her again. No worries though Logan's there to cheer her up. Rory was upset that Jess started dating someone else and Logan showed up at the renewal with someone else even though they weren't dating. Rory takes him back but doesn't forgive him about sleeping with the bridal party. She didn't have to take him back and shouldn't if she was going to remain ticked off at him. She repeats the pattern in the Revival can't even bother to remember or break up with Paul she's too busy flying back and forth from London to cheat on him with Logan and ends up cheating on both with the Wookie.

I do agree if Jess had remained on the show he would have gotten worse. Almost all characters did. I think Lane and maybe Paris were the only ones who weren't didn't get worse by the end of the series but had Paris being a crappy mom and separated from Doyle and Lane working her mother instead of in a band or Hep Alien staying together.  

[chessiegal]

I love Logan. So happy to see him on my TV. Matt Czuchry is yummy..

[Steph Sometimes]

My most UO of many UOs. This one may be a doozy.

Except for the cheating conclusion of her storyline, I liked Nicole. I liked that she wasn't loud or obnoxious or quirky, but kind of reserved and quiet which was kind of refreshing when everyone else can be quirk overload. She was smart and seemed reasonably good at her job and didn't start screaming when Luke had his little meltdown in front of her parents. Also, I don't remember all their interactions, but I thought Lorelai was weirder to her/about her than she was to Lorelai.

She and Luke obviously weren't right for each other, but I still liked her.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Steph Sometimes said:

My most UO of many UOs. This one may be a doozy.

Except for the cheating conclusion of her storyline, I liked Nicole. I liked that she wasn't loud or obnoxious or quirky, but kind of reserved and quiet which was kind of refreshing when everyone else can be quirk overload. She was smart and seemed reasonably good at her job and didn't start screaming when Luke had his little meltdown in front of her parents. Also, I don't remember all their interactions, but I thought Lorelai was weirder to her/about her than she was to Lorelai.

She and Luke obviously weren't right for each other, but I still liked her.

Like the turning down the bed scene?  Oh my.

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, Steph Sometimes said:

but I thought Lorelai was weirder to her/about her than she was to Lorelai.

IMO, besides Rune, Lorelai was weirder to everyone than they were to her.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

IMO, besides Rune, Lorelai was weirder to everyone than they were to her.

One word:

Beau

[Anela]

On 8/18/2019 at 7:22 PM, Steph Sometimes said:

My most UO of many UOs. This one may be a doozy.

Except for the cheating conclusion of her storyline, I liked Nicole. I liked that she wasn't loud or obnoxious or quirky, but kind of reserved and quiet which was kind of refreshing when everyone else can be quirk overload. She was smart and seemed reasonably good at her job and didn't start screaming when Luke had his little meltdown in front of her parents. Also, I don't remember all their interactions, but I thought Lorelai was weirder to her/about her than she was to Lorelai.

She and Luke obviously weren't right for each other, but I still liked her.

She was okay, but I think she was funny with Lorelai (a bit), and she cheated on Luke. He should have moved in properly with her, or not moved at all, but she should have talked to him properly, as well, instead of sleeping with another man, or men, especially in the home they were sharing (part of the time). 

[Anela]

On 2/12/2019 at 8:14 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

Yeah, Dean's reaction wasn't great, but he was an immature teen IN LUV for the first time. Rory, Jess, and the other teens on GG made poor choices and had terrible emotional reactions as well, but for some reason, Dean is vilified more for his stupid teen behavior then Jess, for instance. Stupid teenagers will be stupid, I say.

 There are some of us who don't like Jess, in the earlier years. He can be funny, but I didn't like him at all, until he grew up a bit. 

I can relate to Rory in terms of being scared to cave into those feelings, though (even as an adult). I've had a guy who is kind of like Jess, in my life (kind of like Dean, too, when he wants to be - he could be confusing), but he woke feelings up in me, that I hadn't had for a while, and we had interesting conversations. he was also a reader, like me. He didn't really fit into my life, not fully. 

I started to watch the series again last week, after a break of a month or so, and I find myself liking Max and Dean a little more than I was. My opinions sometimes change a bit, depending on how my own life is going. I still think they were both a bit too smothering/pushy, though. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Anela

[Steph Sometimes]

8 hours ago, Anela said:

She was okay, but I think she was funny with Lorelai (a bit), and she cheated on Luke. He should have moved in properly with her, or not moved at all, but she should have talked to him properly, as well, instead of sleeping with another man, or men, especially in the home they were sharing (part of the time). 

I definitely agree about the cheating. I thought it was a dumb and way-too-easy way to write her character out.

[andromeda331]

I like Nicole and she seemed nice and really seemed together but I really liked seeing Luke in an relationship. We didn't really see it with Rachel because he was already over her and interested in Lorelai. But we saw him trying to impress her by searching for a restaurant he thought she would like, going to musicals, and letting her use her cellphone in his diner. He went to meet her parents and apologized later for the blow up which Nicole seem to understand.  I really liked their relationship in season three.

I hate their relationship in season four. It makes zero sense. Starting with the divorce, non-divorce, stay married and date, then move in but not really moved in. Luke makes it sound like they just got swept up in the moment which seems odd for both of them but okay, but rather then just divorce and consider it an oops, that seemed to end the relationship completely until Nicole show up in his diner and suggest the stay married but date. Why? What was the point of either one? Why not just divorce? Or just have them not marry at all and have the relationship just run its course. At some point they decided to move in together, we don't see it or even know why. They decided to stay marry and date in episode 7 and 4 episodes later we find out that they bought a condo and moved in together in Litchfield. So in four episodes they somehow move fast enough to decided to condo hunt and move in. Then suddenly their fighting five episodes later and we don't really know why. We hear fights and see the end of one and Luke doesn't seem to be spending time at their condo given Nicole's look when he asks if she's going back to their place. And in the next episode we find out she's cheating. It all makes zero sense. And as much as I hate Nicole for cheating, it is crap and she should have just upped and ended the marriage. But I don't really feel sorry for Luke for being cheated on from what we see in season 4 he's not really a great boyfriend/husband to her. He really seems to want it all over in the beginning, he puts zero work into their relationship after they decided to stay married and date, and after moving into the condo but he won't just up and tell her its over. He spends so little time with her and is surprised that she found someone else?  Their marriage was nothing but weird.

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like Nicole and she seemed nice and really seemed together but I really liked seeing Luke in an relationship. We didn't really see it with Rachel because he was already over her and interested in Lorelai. But we saw him trying to impress her by searching for a restaurant he thought she would like, going to musicals, and letting her use her cellphone in his diner. He went to meet her parents and apologized later for the blow up which Nicole seem to understand.  I really liked their relationship in season three.

I hate their relationship in season four. It makes zero sense. Starting with the divorce, non-divorce, stay married and date, then move in but not really moved in. Luke makes it sound like they just got swept up in the moment which seems odd for both of them but okay, but rather then just divorce and consider it an oops, that seemed to end the relationship completely until Nicole show up in his diner and suggest the stay married but date. Why? What was the point of either one? Why not just divorce? Or just have them not marry at all and have the relationship just run its course. At some point they decided to move in together, we don't see it or even know why. They decided to stay marry and date in episode 7 and 4 episodes later we find out that they bought a condo and moved in together in Litchfield. So in four episodes they somehow move fast enough to decided to condo hunt and move in. Then suddenly their fighting five episodes later and we don't really know why. We hear fights and see the end of one and Luke doesn't seem to be spending time at their condo given Nicole's look when he asks if she's going back to their place. And in the next episode we find out she's cheating. It all makes zero sense. And as much as I hate Nicole for cheating, it is crap and she should have just upped and ended the marriage. But I don't really feel sorry for Luke for being cheated on from what we see in season 4 he's not really a great boyfriend/husband to her. He really seems to want it all over in the beginning, he puts zero work into their relationship after they decided to stay married and date, and after moving into the condo but he won't just up and tell her its over. He spends so little time with her and is surprised that she found someone else?  Their marriage was nothing but weird.

ALL of this.

[Guest]

I liked Nicole okay as a character. But I hated the way the relationship played out. It felt to me like "Hey, let's use this as a stumbling block for Luke and Lorelai" so you knew it wasn't going to be permanent. Then "Oh! Luke is coming across kinda bad in this relationship. What can we do to just end it so he can be with Lorelai and be the good guy? I know! Let's have her cheat!"

[Steph Sometimes]

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't hate Nicole. I'm sort of quiet and reserved too I think so I identified with that.

I did always wonder if it was a coincidence that Nicole, like Sherry, suddenly showed up very, very blonde. There's something about dating one of Lorelai's guys that has you running toward the bleach.

Also, on a more shallow note, I always found Dave hotter than Dean, Jess and Logan. I like them on the dorkier side I guess. 

[readster]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:05 PM, Steph Sometimes said:

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't hate Nicole. I'm sort of quiet and reserved too I think so I identified with that.

I did always wonder if it was a coincidence that Nicole, like Sherry, suddenly showed up very, very blonde. There's something about dating one of Lorelai's guys that has you running toward the bleach.

Also, on a more shallow note, I always found Dave hotter than Dean, Jess and Logan. I like them on the dorkier side I guess. 

They just turned Nicole into like many said a "stumbling block" for Luke and Lorelai. It also didn't help that even in the season premiere, they had it where Luke and Nicole jumped into a quick elopement and then went: "What were we thinking." Only for her "working brothers" to harass Luke with: "You must want something out of this divorce, no one just walks away not wanting something." It was such a farce and then of course Nicole was all: "Hey, let's try it again." Such bad writing.

[peacheslatour]

I know I'm at a table for one over here but I sometimes wish Sookie would just go away. She is annoying and the harder she tries to be funny, the more annoying she is. Sorry. I can only stand her in very small doses.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I know I'm at a table for one over here but I sometimes wish Sookie would just go away. She is annoying and the harder she tries to be funny, the more annoying she is. Sorry. I can only stand her in very small doses.

I agree.  I don't hate her or anything, but she was never my favorite character.  And no way would an inn hire an accident-prone chef who thinks nothing of ditching a menu at the last minute for no good reason, causing lots of extra costs.  

[andromeda331]

I love Sookie but there are some episodes I don't like her in like the Incredible Shrinking Lorelais she caused the whole mess with the sink by insisting not having it installed until she checked it out. Then when she doesn't do it she blows it off like its no big deal and that anyone else could do it and gets on Michel even though Lorelai points out he has a job. Then say she shouldn't be doing any of this anyway because she's not good at and really thinks her own part in all of this comes after the inn opens. Okay, so she messes up, she refuses to apologize, or admit she made a mistake, tries to blame Michel and then drops the bomb she shouldn't have to do any of thing until the kitchen opens? I know she was up all night with Davy and normally I would be sympathetic. But we've seen Sookie really skating through all of the planning after Davy was born. They had meetings in her house, she had two people aside from her husband to help her (Tobin and the midwife), and we learn that Sookie's been missing every meeting. She couldn't leave him with either one of them or Jackson? It would have taken about ten or twenty minutes at most. Or if she had just apologized and felt bad about messing up it wouldn't have been a big deal.

But I'm a Gilmore-She didn't find anyone to fill in for her while she on maternity leave like she was suppose to, and then harasses Luke who is saving her butt as well as the inn's by filling in until they can find someone. Not to mention risking the Dragonfly with that stunt. 

Wanting to feed vegetarians meet because she finds cooking for them boring.  

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Okay, so she messes up, she refuses to apologize, or admit she made a mistake, tries to blame Michel and then drops the bomb she shouldn't have to do any of thing until the kitchen opens? I know she was up all night with Davy and normally I would be sympathetic. But we've seen Sookie really skating through all of the planning after Davy was born. They had meetings in her house, she had two people aside from her husband to help her (Tobin and the midwife), and we learn that Sookie's been missing every meeting.

See this is the type of shit that drives me absolutely crazy. She's not a child, what did she think running a business entailed? You can't play hooky or call in sick like you can when you work for someone else. You are it. If you don't show up there is no business. I know she's supposed to be a fabulous cook but Lorelai was crazy to go into partnership with her. She should have hired Sookie and if she needed a partner, Luke could have been a silent partner.

[Taryn74]

53 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

See this is the type of shit that drives me absolutely crazy. She's not a child, what did she think running a business entailed? You can't play hooky or call in sick like you can when you work for someone else. You are it. If you don't show up there is no business. I know she's supposed to be a fabulous cook but Lorelai was crazy to go into partnership with her. She should have hired Sookie and if she needed a partner, Luke could have been a silent partner.

See, I hold the (fairly unpopular) opinion that Sookie was doing exactly what she thought she was supposed to be doing - be a partner in name only (by putting up what I have to assume was the lion's share of the money, since just a few weeks after telling Fran they were prepared to make an offer "right now" on the Dragonfly property Lorelai couldn't even get a loan to fix the termite damage on her house by herself) until it came time for the Inn to be up and running and she would step in to be in charge of the kitchen. And that's why Sookie was so hurt and confused when Lorelai exploded all over her for having to "take every meeting by herself" and all that. Sookie's not the one with a business degree, Lorelai is. Sookie wasn't the one accustomed to working with suppliers and contractors and all that at the Independence, Lorelai was. Sookie's "place" had always been in the kitchen, and that's where she expected her place to continue to be.

[Kohola3]

33 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

See, I hold the (fairly unpopular) opinion that Sookie was doing exactly what she thought she was supposed to be doing - be a partner in name only...

I have to agree.  Sookie never showed any business sense at all right from the get go.  How Lorelai determined that suddenly she'd be able to switch horses and become a business magnate is a bit of a mystery.

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

See, I hold the (fairly unpopular) opinion that Sookie was doing exactly what she thought she was supposed to be doing - be a partner in name only (by putting up what I have to assume was the lion's share of the money, since just a few weeks after telling Fran they were prepared to make an offer "right now" on the Dragonfly property Lorelai couldn't even get a loan to fix the termite damage on her house by herself) until it came time for the Inn to be up and running and she would step in to be in charge of the kitchen. And that's why Sookie was so hurt and confused when Lorelai exploded all over her for having to "take every meeting by herself" and all that. Sookie's not the one with a business degree, Lorelai is. Sookie wasn't the one accustomed to working with suppliers and contractors and all that at the Independence, Lorelai was. Sookie's "place" had always been in the kitchen, and that's where she expected her place to continue to be.

That's all very fine and good except for the sink thing.  She specifically said that they could not deliver the sink unless she was there to approve it.  Otherwises, yes, I think the more Sookie stayed out of things, the better off they would probably be.  And, I'm not really meaning that as an insult.  We all have different talents.  Sookie's talent is cooking and creating dishes, and other kitchen-related things.  She doesn't know about the other aspects of running an inn because she's always just been focused on the dining aspect.  If Lorelai wanted more out of her,she should have made that clear before they entered a partnership together. Actually they both should have been more clear and discussed who was going to be responsible for what well before they even made an offer.  They'd supposedly been talking about this for years.  They're like a couple who gets married without first discussing kids or where they're going to live.  Oh, wait, I guess I see how it happened it now.

[Taryn74]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's all very fine and good except for the sink thing.  She specifically said that they could not deliver the sink unless she was there to approve it.

Actually, to get nitpicky, Sookie didn't say that -- Tom did. All Sookie said was that she didn't want them installing it until she had approved it. Tom's the one that said they wouldn't even leave it without her okay. And he said it in a very offhand, drily sarcastic manner. Also, he said that right before getting into the 'you guys haven't even been paying us for weeks' conversation, which was 100% in Lorelai's lap (IMO). In Sookie's place, meeting the sink guys so they wouldn't ship the damn thing back to Canada would have been the last thing on my mind, too. Just saying.

I do agree that Sookie shouldn't have brushed it off when she realized she had been expected to meet the sink guys and messed up, but at the same time I can understand why that wasn't exactly the top thing on her mind, after the stress of everything else they talked about that day and after being up all night with a crying baby.

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Otherwises, yes, I think the more Sookie stayed out of things, the better off they would probably be.  And, I'm not really meaning that as an insult.  We all have different talents.  Sookie's talent is cooking and creating dishes, and other kitchen-related things.  She doesn't know about the other aspects of running an inn because she's always just been focused on the dining aspect.  If Lorelai wanted more out of her,she should have made that clear before they entered a partnership together. Actually they both should have been more clear and discussed who was going to be responsible for what well before they even made an offer.  They'd supposedly been talking about this for years.  They're like a couple who gets married without first discussing kids or where they're going to live.  Oh, wait, I guess I see how it happened it now.

Agree with all of this. And ~LOL~ to the last line.

[scarynikki12]

For what it's worth, I think Sookie started making excuses and passing blame because she knew she royally screwed up and felt super guilty. I normally don't include this episode in one of my rewatches but I did during a recent one because I wanted to see Richard yell at Trix. In the episodes before this one we see Sookie majorly involved in the Inn prep. She's right with Lorelai from the presentation at the town meeting to making the aesthetic decisions like wood for framing doorways. If she truly felt that her entire role with the Dragonfly was to wait around until the kitchen was set up then she kept that to herself and should consider acting as a second career. Her behavior after she realizes she screwed up is of someone who isn't ready to outwardly acknowledge their mistake so she starts with the excuses and trying to blame Michel because she's not ready to admit to herself how bad this is much less anyone else.

The way she behaved about the kitchen after the inn opened offers no other interpretation. She was just being awful and short sighted.

[readster]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

 Her behavior after she realizes she screwed up is of someone who isn't ready to outwardly acknowledge their mistake so she starts with the excuses and trying to blame Michel because she's not ready to admit to herself how bad this is much less anyone else.

The way she behaved about the kitchen after the inn opened offers no other interpretation. She was just being awful and short sighted.

It was like later too with Michel on he acted after the Inn was on and going. He would at times insult people and yet expect them to realize that: "Hey, I'm the manager and you are in a glorious hotel, so shut up and take my insults." The more I looked at it, Sookie knew how to run a kitchen, but had no business sense. Michel knew the hotel business in and out, but he was not a "people person". Lorelai problem was, she knew everything, had the degree, had seriously almost a life time of experience, but at the same time. She acted like things would be fine including finances would just magically work out and you didn't have to budget. I'm surprise the Dragon Fly didn't sink in its first year. 

[Crs97]

 Lorelaiproblem was, she knew everything, had the degree, had seriously almost a life time of experience, but at the same time. She acted like things would be fine including finances would just magically work out and you didn't have to budget. I'm surprise the Dragon Fly didn't sink in its first year.

Lorelai also tended to think that she could skate by on her charming personality.  She tended to be surprised when someone wasn’t so moved by her quips and smiles that they would give her whatever she asked for.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, readster said:

The more I looked at it, Sookie knew how to run a kitchen, but had no business sense. Michel knew the hotel business in and out, but he was not a "people person". Lorelai problem was, she knew everything, had the degree, had seriously almost a life time of experience, but at the same time. She acted like things would be fine including finances would just magically work out and you didn't have to budget. I'm surprise the Dragon Fly didn't sink in its first year. 

Excellent observations!

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Lorelai also tended to think that she could skate by on her charming personality.  She tended to be surprised when someone wasn’t so moved by her quips and smiles that they would give her whatever she asked for.

And boy did that ever get annoying.

And also, embarrassing by the time the Revival rolled around and she was well into her late 40s/early 50s.  When she was trying to flirt her way into something with the park ranger I literally felt secondhand embarrassment for her.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

That's all very fine and good except for the sink thing.  She specifically said that they could not deliver the sink unless she was there to approve it.  Otherwises, yes, I think the more Sookie stayed out of things, the better off they would probably be.  And, I'm not really meaning that as an insult.  We all have different talents.  Sookie's talent is cooking and creating dishes, and other kitchen-related things.  She doesn't know about the other aspects of running an inn because she's always just been focused on the dining aspect.  If Lorelai wanted more out of her,she should have made that clear before they entered a partnership together. Actually they both should have been more clear and discussed who was going to be responsible for what well before they even made an offer.  They'd supposedly been talking about this for years.  They're like a couple who gets married without first discussing kids or where they're going to live.  Oh, wait, I guess I see how it happened it now.

This is probably really what it is. In all their talks and dreaming about opening their own inn they never talked about what that would actually mean. Sookie thought it meant she would do what she always had before run the kitchen and it never occurred to her to be anything else she's never had to worry about the before. Lorelai thought she was getting a partner because when ever they talked about being partners so she thought that she was getting a full partner. They really should have talked what each person's job was going to be. That way they both know what their getting and maybe Lorelai can convince or get Sookie to see she needs to do more. Maybe Sookie has to think about whether she can do that and if not then Lorelai decide whether she thinks she can do it all and if she can't and if Sookie can't maybe both decide to bring in another partner or something.   

Edited August 31, 2019 by andromeda331

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Maybe Sookie has to think about whether she can do that and if not then Lorelai decide whether she thinks she can do it all and if she can't and if Sookie can't maybe both decide to bring in another partner or something.   

Something that would have actually made a lot more sense and bring in some truly organic conflict would be that Sookie and Lorelai planned all along to ask Mia to be a silent partner, at least until they had enough income coming in that they could buy her part out (Lorelai assuming that she would be happy to, since Mia looked to her as a surrogate daughter, and never really bothering to ask Mia about it beforehand) and then the big blow in Ins and Outs of Inns would be them asking Mia and her turning them down because she was looking to get out of the business altogether, AFTER they had already talked to Fran and she agreed to sell them the Dragonfly property.  That would have left them scrambling to figure out what to do next -- just put their dreams back on the back burner again for who knows how long, or proceed without having a real plan where the rest of the money was going to come from?  Now THAT I would have liked to have seen play out.

It also would avoid the horrible way they acted at Fran's funeral, which I try to block out as much as possible. Heh.

[readster]

9 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Something that would have actually made a lot more sense and bring in some truly organic conflict would be that Sookie and Lorelai planned all along to ask Mia to be a silent partner, at least until they had enough income coming in that they could buy her part out (Lorelai assuming that she would be happy to, since Mia looked to her as a surrogate daughter, and never really bothering to ask Mia about it beforehand) and then the big blow in Ins and Outs of Inns would be them asking Mia and her turning them down because she was looking to get out of the business altogether, AFTER they had already talked to Fran and she agreed to sell them the Dragonfly property.  That would have left them scrambling to figure out what to do next -- just put their dreams back on the back burner again for who knows how long, or proceed without having a real plan where the rest of the money was going to come from?  Now THAT I would have liked to have seen play out.

It also would avoid the horrible way they acted at Fran's funeral, which I try to block out as much as possible. Heh.

It's also when I got pissed after Richard dropped the $70K from the property investment when Lorelai was born in front of her. She immediately saw it as a way "out" of paying her mother back for Chilton. NEVER ONCE! using it for the Dragonfly in or something. I'm sorry, but if I had that kind of money dropped on me and I had been working YEARS to get my own business and property, guess where it would have gone to? Yep! They could have done it that way instead of manufactured drama for Lorelai to cut ties with her parents again. They could have used the lame "you made too much" and why Rory wouldn't get any aid or stuff (which still didn't make sense if you are valedictorian for your class).  They could have had it where Rory made an agreement with Richard and Emily and even had it where Emily decides to to forego the loan which Lorelai would be: "I'm free of Friday night dinners" and then turns out that Rory just had it happen again until she graduates. Better conflict and kind of a wa wa wa for Lorelai. Oh no, she was an excellent woman of business who couldn't figure out her good looks and charm would not last forever. 

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, readster said:

It's also when I got pissed after Richard dropped the $70K from the property investment when Lorelai was born in front of her. She immediately saw it as a way "out" of paying her mother back for Chilton. NEVER ONCE! using it for the Dragonfly in or something. I'm sorry, but if I had that kind of money dropped on me and I had been working YEARS to get my own business and property, guess where it would have gone to?

Yes! Jeebus, the handling of "financial issues" on this show put me into a rage if I think about them too long. 

[readster]

3 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Yes! Jeebus, the handling of "financial issues" on this show put me into a rage if I think about them too long. 

AS-P really had a warp sense of finances, it's like even on Bun Heads with Emily Bishop's character keeping bills in hat boxes and paying them when either she felt like it or had the money to pay them? In the real world, they would have been hit by collections or on the street. Even the original owner of the Independence  in the aftermath of when the fire happened you wanted to go: "How the hell did you ever become a business owner?" "Did you have pictures on someone?" Plus, how Lorelai didn't go: "Shit, I have to find a new job too, good thing dad just dropped this money in front of me, fuck that! Paying mom back so I don't have to go to Friday night dinners anymore." 

Edited August 31, 2019 by readster
spelling errors.

[andromeda331]

On 8/31/2019 at 11:27 AM, Taryn74 said:

Yes! Jeebus, the handling of "financial issues" on this show put me into a rage if I think about them too long. 

On 8/31/2019 at 11:30 AM, readster said:

AS-P really had a warp sense of finances, it's like even on Bun Heads with Emily Bishop's character keeping bills in hat boxes and paying them when either she felt like it or had the money to pay them? In the real world, they would have been hit by collections or on the street. Even the original owner of the Independence  in the aftermath of when the fire happened you wanted to go: "How the hell did you ever become a business owner?" "Did you have pictures on someone?" Plus, how Lorelai didn't go: "Shit, I have to find a new job too, good thing dad just dropped this money in front of me, fuck that! Paying mom back so I don't have to go to Friday night dinners anymore." 

She really did. I hate any episode that brings up finances because they make no sense. I don't think it ever occurred to her how much she undermines Lorelai's character along with Emily and Richard with the money problems. She tries to show Lorelai as an strong independence woman who supports her and her daughter. But it makes no sense that Lorelai doesn't have money in the pilot or even some of it. Its been her and Rory's dream to get into Chilton and if that doesn't happen for Harvard. Lorelai's had steady work for fourteen or fifteen years by that point. She should have a decent savings and if not she should have a good reason why like an emergency coming up. In the episode that they find out they have termites they again should have a good amount of savings and it makes zero sense Lorelai couldn't get a loan. She should have been able to do either one or have her mention having to sacrifice Rory's college fund or more likely the money she was saving for the inn. They mention off and on that she and Sookie have been saving for to by an inn but we never see it comes up. The money ends up coming from the investment Richard made for her when she was born. What happened to the money she was saving from the inn? Why not have had a big repair come up before or during the pilot explaining why Lorelai doesn't have money but not worried thinking she can replace it until she gets the acceptance letter from Chilton? Or have the termite thing come up right before Rory graduates causing them to wipe out the money for Harvard and the inn? It could even give Lorelai more reason to be upset because she had go to her parents because she had the money or ticked off that life happens and it keeps preventing her from being where she wants to be. In the early seasons except for eating at Luke's every day they didn't seem to buy a lot of big stuff. They rewore clothes, Rory took the bus, and it seemed like they should have decent savings. That's all gone by season four and none of the money makes any sense. Lorelai has no job or income but skates mostly by without either while the construction of the inn.  The way she spends after the Dragonfly opens despite it being new. Lorelai living in the potted shed until Rory's 11 makes no sense either and even if that's what happened Lorelai had five years of living in a house that she should have been able to save something.

 Richard putting up his pension to open his own business. Ah, he's a rich man. From his years in the insurance business and comes from a wealthy family. It makes no sense they would be in trouble if they lost his pension or he would even put that up. They had a ton of money. Plus he should have gotten a ton of money from Trix's will. He was her son and they were really close. Plus there's no way Trix wouldn't have passed down whatever Gilmore money and other assets to keep them in the family. I'm not entirely sure she wouldn't have left something to Lorelai since she seemed to like Lorelai. Its still odd they didn't buy anything in Martha's Vineyard years ago or Richard's parents that they used.

[chessiegal]

Finances on this show are always used to create drama/conflict. I'm hard pressed to come up with an example where they made sense.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I was going to say, I regularly get loan offers for the same amount Lorelai needed for the termite repairs, and I don’t have her employment history or home equity. I don’t accept the loans because I don’t need them, and they have undesirable interest rates, but I get the offers. Lorelai should’ve been able to deal with the problem easily, especially since in the 00’s, banks were handing out loans like candy on Halloween. 

[Taryn74]

I think the fans just need to give this show a good re-write. LOL.

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I hate any episode that brings up finances because they make no sense. I don't think it ever occurred to [ASP] how much she undermines Lorelai's character along with Emily and Richard with the money problems. She tries to show Lorelai as an strong independence woman who supports her and her daughter. But it makes no sense that Lorelai doesn't have money in the pilot or even some of it. Its been her and Rory's dream to get into Chilton and if that doesn't happen for Harvard. Lorelai's had steady work for fourteen or fifteen years by that point. She should have a decent savings and if not she should have a good reason why like an emergency coming up. In the episode that they find out they have termites they again should have a good amount of savings and it makes zero sense Lorelai couldn't get a loan. She should have been able to do either one or have her mention having to sacrifice Rory's college fund or more likely the money she was saving for the inn. They mention off and on that she and Sookie have been saving for to by an inn but we never see it comes up. The money ends up coming from the investment Richard made for her when she was born. What happened to the money she was saving from the inn? Why not have had a big repair come up before or during the pilot explaining why Lorelai doesn't have money but not worried thinking she can replace it until she gets the acceptance letter from Chilton? Or have the termite thing come up right before Rory graduates causing them to wipe out the money for Harvard and the inn? It could even give Lorelai more reason to be upset because she had go to her parents because she had the money or ticked off that life happens and it keeps preventing her from being where she wants to be. In the early seasons except for eating at Luke's every day they didn't seem to buy a lot of big stuff. They rewore clothes, Rory took the bus, and it seemed like they should have decent savings. That's all gone by season four and none of the money makes any sense. Lorelai has no job or income but skates mostly by without either while the construction of the inn.  The way she spends after the Dragonfly opens despite it being new. Lorelai living in the potted shed until Rory's 11 makes no sense either and even if that's what happened Lorelai had five years of living in a house that she should have been able to save something.

You know, they had the Chilton mom snarking that Rory was probably one of the "scholarship students" in one of the early episodes, when Lorelai went to the school meeting and met Max for the first time. They could have had something centered around Lorelai assuming Rory would get scholarship money to cover the tuition for Chilton if/when she got in, and then for whatever reason she didn't qualify (even if it was something like the school board knew that the elder Gilmores could easily afford the tuition for their only granddaughter to attend a prestigious school so they denied her application in favor of someone who really did need the financial aid) and suddenly Lorelai had to scramble to figure out how to cover the tuition, leaving the only practical option being to go to her parents. What an interesting and compelling storyline that could have been - Lorelai having to face the fact that no matter how much she (claims to have) hated growing up one of the wealthy elite, and no matter how much she sees herself as part of the "common man" working class, at the end of the day she can't expect to raise her daughter with all the privilege of the elite class without accepting everything that comes with it. That would have been so interesting to watch, and it wouldn't leave Lorelai looking like an airheaded buffoon who didn't realize that a prestigious private school comes with a prestigious private school cost.

[junienmomo]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

She really did. I hate any episode that brings up finances because they make no sense. 

Yes, so much. 

However, when we consider that the Palladinos killed the golden goose when it would only lay a one year contract instead of a two year, maybe we see what a poor relationship they had to money. 

GG could easily have had a ten year run.

[andromeda331]

32 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I think the fans just need to give this show a good re-write. LOL.

You know, they had the Chilton mom snarking that Rory was probably one of the "scholarship students" in one of the early episodes, when Lorelai went to the school meeting and met Max for the first time. They could have had something centered around Lorelai assuming Rory would get scholarship money to cover the tuition for Chilton if/when she got in, and then for whatever reason she didn't qualify (even if it was something like the school board knew that the elder Gilmores could easily afford the tuition for their only granddaughter to attend a prestigious school so they denied her application in favor of someone who really did need the financial aid) and suddenly Lorelai had to scramble to figure out how to cover the tuition, leaving the only practical option being to go to her parents. What an interesting and compelling storyline that could have been - Lorelai having to face the fact that no matter how much she (claims to have) hated growing up one of the wealthy elite, and no matter how much she sees herself as part of the "common man" working class, at the end of the day she can't expect to raise her daughter with all the privilege of the elite class without accepting everything that comes with it. That would have been so interesting to watch, and it wouldn't leave Lorelai looking like an airheaded buffoon who didn't realize that a prestigious private school comes with a prestigious private school cost.

That would have been a great idea. Lorelai has always wanted to do it alone without accept help from anyone especially her parents. Finding out in the pilot despite all of her hard work she couldn't swing the money herself would have been a huge hit. I really hate when they make Lorelai dumb on stuff she would already know because she lived in that world for seventeen or eighteen years or how dumb money works in the common man world because she's lived in that world for fifteen years. I would have loved if Lorelai got a scene similar to the Rory got after she wrote the article about the rich which Logan pointed out that she was part of it. Lorelai needed that every bit as much as Rory. 

[Taryn74]

31 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Lorelai needed that every bit as much as Rory. 

This! Absolutely!!!!