One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

6 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

Perhaps the fantasy of Rory and Jess lives on because of the “full friggin’ circle” theme of ASP’s story. Logan is Rory’s Christopher and Jess is her Luke. 

The full circle is too ridiculous on its own to merit any serious consideration but even ASP wasn't obtuse enough to include Luke or Jess in that equation. That part is all by fans.

[FictionLover]

46 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

The full circle is too ridiculous on its own to merit any serious consideration but even ASP wasn't obtuse enough to include Luke or Jess in that equation. That part is all by fans.

I honestly don’t really think she had that much foresight into the show either, the lack of continuity proves that. I think she decided to do that in the revival, not back in the OS. Honestly, who Rory ends up with really doesn’t matter to me...just throwing in my two cents :)

[Eva Marie]

Count me in for the Jess hate. I detest both the actor (his work) & character. A truly talented actor/actress can make an unlikeable character compelling but Milo fell flat on his derrière. To compare - look at what Liza Weil has done with Paris! It's a miracle that a character so outrageous and abrasive turned out so entertaining and unique.

And yes for the rape-adjacent situation he put her in at that party. That was the nail in the coffin for me. I was so, so glad that Rory never got it on with him at all after that.

Also agree on his whiny 'bad boy' attitude being eye-roll worthy. I don't give a crap that he had negligent parents. I've been through much worse and would've kissed Luke's feet if I had a fairy godmother relative like that. Ditto for many other young people I'm sure. But my main problems is that I never bought into the attraction on both sides. Since when do these rebel boys chase bookish introverted nice girls?? Rory was also too quiet at that age to enjoy that kind of conflict. In reality - it'd drain her even quicker than it happened in the show.

Interesting observation about the undercurrent of mild sociopathy. That has always nagged at me but I've been able to articulate it because until the revival it was always couched in sweet quirky situations like the car egging.

[Frelling Tralk]

2 hours ago, FictionLover said:

Perhaps the fantasy of Rory and Jess lives on because of the “full friggin’ circle” theme of ASP’s story. Logan is Rory’s Christopher and Jess is her Luke. 

Well honestly I never understood how fans got that Jess was meant to be Luke in the revival. Amy did talk about Logan being Rory’s Christopher, but Jess being Rory’s Luke seems to be a case of fandom projection imho. The biggest parallel that Amy drew with Luke in the series was actually with Dean if anyone, when Dean snarled at Luke that his small-town ways would never be enough for Lorelai, and the two of them were exactly the same. But Jess is pretty much the opposite in that he seems to be travelling quite a bit and despise small town life, in the revival Jess hadn’t seen Rory in years in fact, so he was hardly the steady and dependable constant in her life the way that Luke was with Lorelai.

There isn’t even much concrete evidence of Jess pinning after Rory as a constant thing, the most we have is a brief look in the window after Luke checks with him that he’s well over Rory now, and frankly that could just as easily be explained away as a brief moment of nostalgia for what they had as kids, it’s hardly conclusive evidence that Jess is completely hung up on Rory in the way that Luke was with Lorelai. 

And I certainly can’t see Jess settling in Stars Hollow again to help Rory raise the kid the way that many fans have suggested will happen, I would think that would be the very last place he would want to return too, when he showed up to visit Luke as an adult years later he was still getting attitude thrown at him from the townspeople for being a punk kid and ruining their town. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[Winter Rose]

I don't like full circle endings on principle, it seems pointless to watch a show passed its pilot if history's just going to repeat itself, but I thought Jess=Luke // Logan=Christopher since the OS.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

4 hours ago, Winter Rose said:

I don't like full circle endings on principle, it seems pointless to watch a show passed its pilot if history's just going to repeat itself, but I thought Jess=Luke // Logan=Christopher since the OS.

Why?

[strongercoffee]

Luke and Lorelai are still my favorite fictional pairing ever. I think they're a lot more similar and, in their own characteristically weird ways, much more deeply connected than they're generally given credit for. While some of their scenes in the revival could be frustrating to watch, I didn't find them nearly as unrealistic or out of character as most did. The ultimate payoff was glorious, with these two ferociously independent, prideful, stubborn and vulnerability-averse people finally ready to fully commit to sharing their lives with each other. I couldn't admit this anywhere other than the internet, but that wedding scene alone would make these DVDs a worthwhile purchase for me even if I disliked the rest of AYitL. (Which I don't! I dislike parts of it---okay, fine, maybe even more than half of it---but there was just enough there to remind me of why this is my favorite series ever created.)

I'm one of the few who didn't think Rory was particularly out of character in AYITL. This was the worst of her, but it's nothing we didn't see ample evidence of in the original series. She's less stubborn and more agreeable than Lorelai and Emily, but she's also seriously lacking in her grandmother and mother's resilience, independence, spirit and sense of self. I didn't enjoy watching her once again regress to her weakest and most morally murky tendencies, but I did think this was how a lost, wounded Rory would realistically act. 

It was validating to see this mentioned by a few other people here, but please add my name to the list of people who never saw Rory as someone who'd make a good journalist, freelance or otherwise, or even as someone who'd aspire to be in that field. I love how someone mentioned that Lorelai, with her natural curiosity, thicker skin, energy, adaptability and persistence would actually have been better suited for that profession. Rory would be great as an event planner, an editor for a publishing house or literary journal, or an academic researcher. Unlike a lot of people, I don't see her as comfortable enough in front of a group or dynamic enough to be a great teacher. And even though I hated how she acted like teaching would be beneath her when Charleston broached the topic in the revival, for someone as terrified of deviating from her original plans and goals as Rory is (not to mention someone as grossly entitled as she is!), it didn't surprise me.

I hate Logan, aka Smirky McSmug (I think someone else coined that, but it's too perfect not to use!), and while this is more her fault than his, I hate who Rory becomes in relation to him. He may not be worse than Christopher by most objective measures, but he personally irritates me even more than Christopher does. Like a few others mentioned, Christopher strikes me as hapless, weak-willed and stuck in a permanent adolescence, but Logan is more...I'm at a loss for the adjectives so will appeal to the brilliant posters here for help. Audaciously arrogant? Calculating? Alarmingly able to convince someone like Rory to go along with whatever he wants?  These are just my impressions, and probably not even ones the writers wanted me to form, but there's something about Logan that I find even more slimy and less trustworthy than Christopher.

I don't ship Rory with anyone other than serious therapy at this point. I hate that she ended up pregnant, but I do like that she seemed on the way to finding her real self by the end of Fall and seems to have broken with Logan and his atrocious friends. (Obviously if Logan is the father of her child she'll still have some tie to him throughout their lives, but I'm trying to block that out!) I hope her self-indulgent memoir bombs but that the process of writing it gives her some desperately needed insight and forces her to reflect on things she hadn't wanted to see. 

I do like the revival more than most did, but another unpopular opinion is that Lorelai and Rory mocking overweight people at the pool annoyed me even more than that ghastly musical. Basically, I will be skipping a lot of Spring and most of Summer and focusing on the Logan-free parts of Winter and Fall! 

I saved the one that will make you hate me most for last: I really love Lorelai. She can be beyond awful, but I think she's an incredibly complex, relatable (the fact that I can relate to her tells you a few scary things about me!), and ultimately still a woman who I love and root for despite her deep-rooted flaws. And while I acknowledge that Luke has some major issues too, I never stopped loving him, either---or them as a couple :)

[tarotx]

What does Logan convince Rory to do beyond jumping and that he had thought they were on a break? 

[Winter Rose]

20 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Why?

Part of it was the friends first that was the foundation of both LL and RJ. Despite Jess being a jerk early on, even then he was still capable of little ways to show he cared (fixing Luke's toaster, taking out the ringer snowman, presumably getting Rory's picture removed as the face of censorship at the video store, unlocking the diner so the town could have a wake for Louie, the sprinklers, coming to Liz's wedding for Luke's sake). Luke was also sarcastic and standoffish, who would outwardly put up a fight but would ultimately come through for the people he cared about. And Logan and Christopher were fun and exciting, albeit irresponsible. They were both from the high society world, badmouthing it but still benefiting from it, then escaping it before coming back to it.

I'm not saying everyone has the exact same personalities, or that the revival didn't go too literal with it because I certainly think it did, but in a very general sense, I just think the paralleling in the roles they played in Lorelai's and Rory's respective lives didn't spontaneously come out of nowhere just for the revival.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

4 hours ago, Winter Rose said:

I just think the paralleling in the roles they played in Lorelai's and Rory's respective lives didn't spontaneously come out of nowhere just for the revival.

What Luke is to Lorelai is constant, dependable, reliable and safe.

None of those things describe what Jess was to Rory in their brief interactions. I say brief because in the 15 plus years they've known each other, he has been a constant in a total of 2 years, if not less. 

[nclpllm]

On 11/26/2017 at 8:37 AM, FictionLover said:

I honestly don’t really think she had that much foresight into the show either, the lack of continuity proves that. I think she decided to do that in the revival, not back in the OS.

Amen! Sometimes on the internet people will suggest that ASP 'planned from the beginning' this or that. But I highly doubt it. There was never a detail she couldn't change for the drama of the moment.  

There was a 2009 interview where she was disapproving of how S7 ended, as is her wont, and she wasn't impressed with Rory following the Obama campaign because Rory was supposed to follow a different path, "go off on her own adventure," and then she admitted that writing for a successful campaign "sort of was an adventure." Does anyone else find this contradictory, given her planned final four words? 

Not that single-motherhood isn't an adventure. It's just, you know, already Lorelai's path and not what the show spent seven years promising. And with Rory back in Stars Hollow, with Lorelai/Luke and the town, she isn't exactly going off on her own. But I could be parsing things too much and presumptuous for thinking 'going off on an adventure' means travelling the world. 

 

On 11/27/2017 at 9:10 AM, strongercoffee said:

It was validating to see this mentioned by a few other people here, but please add my name to the list of people who never saw Rory as someone who'd make a good journalist, freelance or otherwise, or even as someone who'd aspire to be in that field.

I second this. I thought she'd make a good event planner when she dropped out of Yale. I imagined her planning Luke and Lorelai's wedding and going into that as a career. That was before she was planning things for the DAR. 

I felt validated by the revival on two fronts: Rory is terrible and ASP doesn't have the golden touch. 

Someone further up observed the love/hate for ASP. On the fanfiction thread, someone put it really well: she writes characters that draw you in, but then you just want to fix everything. Personally, I find her narcissistic traits insufferable.  

[Anela]

I can't imagine them getting through the series, only to have her become pregnant - the one thing she wasn't supposed to do. The original series, I mean, obviously. 

[Taryn74]

10 minutes ago, nclpllm said:

Someone further up observed the love/hate for ASP. On the fanfiction thread, someone put it really well: she writes characters that draw you in, but then you just want to fix everything. Personally, I find her narcissistic traits insufferable. 

YES.  Yes, yes.

[Viqutorious]

On 11/27/2017 at 10:08 AM, tarotx said:

What does Logan convince Rory to do beyond jumping and that he had thought they were on a break? 

He encouraged her frequently, didn’t he convince her to take the internship? It’s not his fault it didn’t work out. He was supportive and helped her when she was editor.

He tried to get her to relax and have fun and try new things. When she was with him she hung out at Martha’s Vineyard, learned to cook, and was planning an awesome Asian vacation .  When she needed a place to live he stepped up and asked her to move in with him. He stuck by her when his family was rude to her and he seemed like he respected Rory’s relationship with Lorelai. He was really supportive when she took a break from college, he never pressured her but he would gently prod her about going back. 

I thought he was pretty good at encouraging Rory to make her own decisions vs. convincing her.  

He was a pretty decent college boyfriend. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

6 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

He encouraged her frequently, didn’t he convince her to take the internship? It’s not his fault it didn’t work out. He was supportive and helped her when she was editor.

He tried to get her to relax and have fun and try new things. When she was with him she hung out at Martha’s Vineyard, learned to cook, and was planning an awesome Asian vacation .  When she needed a place to live he stepped up and asked her to move in with him. He stuck by her when his family was rude to her and he seemed like he respected Rory’s relationship with Lorelai. He was really supportive when she took a break from college, he never pressured her but he would gently prod her about going back. 

I thought he was pretty good at encouraging Rory to make her own decisions vs. convincing her.  

He was a pretty decent college boyfriend. 

All of the above is why he was the one she turned to when she was at her lowest ; A year in the life.

The biggest failure of the Revival is failing to explain how and why Rory got to that point. Then show her getting out of that funk.

But it would’ve been a complete character arc, something ASP was not interested in.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[tarotx]

5 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

He encouraged her frequently, didn’t he convince her to take the internship? It’s not his fault it didn’t work out. He was supportive and helped her when she was editor.

He tried to get her to relax and have fun and try new things. When she was with him she hung out at Martha’s Vineyard, learned to cook, and was planning an awesome Asian vacation .  When she needed a place to live he stepped up and asked her to move in with him. He stuck by her when his family was rude to her and he seemed like he respected Rory’s relationship with Lorelai. He was really supportive when she took a break from college, he never pressured her but he would gently prod her about going back. 

I thought he was pretty good at encouraging Rory to make her own decisions vs. convincing her.  

He was a pretty decent college boyfriend. 

I agree with this except the internship. He didn't want Rory to take it. He also was super worried about her and came to make sure his dad was treating her all right. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

What does Logan convince Rory to do beyond jumping and that he had thought they were on a break?

He taught her that you can buy anything in life when you are rich.  Including a mistress.  If he were some working class drone living in Detroit I doubt she'd be jetting across the country to be with him despite his having a fiancee.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

He taught her that you can buy anything in life when you are rich.  Including a mistress.  If he were some working class drone living in Detroit I doubt she'd be jetting across the country to be with him despite his having a fiancee.

Well, of course not. She had already experienced being a mistress to a working class man.

Edited November 29, 2017 by RoyRogersMcFreely

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

He taught her that you can buy anything in life when you are rich.

I think she had already learned that lesson.  From the start of the series, she didn't seem hesitant like her mom to accept material help from her grandparents.  She liked being the pampered princess.

[elang4]

36 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think she had already learned that lesson.  From the start of the series, she didn't seem hesitant like her mom to accept material help from her grandparents.  She liked being the pampered princess.

To be fair, she only went to them about Yale because she didn't want her mom and Sookie missing out on the Dragonfly.

[strongercoffee]

I have a question for you all: If you had to pick just one, who do you personally like less (and/or find yourself more frequently wanting to throttle): Rory or Lorelai? I'm excited to see everyone's answers and hear how you made this difficult choice!

[Anela]

I do like the points made about us rarely seeing anything in Jess' life, so we can't really judge how great of a person he is. I don't think that he's too good for her. 

One thing I liked about the revival, was that they showed that life can be disappointing, no matter how much promise or privilege you have (although that trust fund would solve a number of my problems).  Her life wasn't perfect, and I don't mind messy, down-on-her-luck Rory - except for the cheating with Logan. I still think it was a huge step backwards, more so than the long-distance relationship that he didn't want to go back to, at the end of season 7. So much for his growing up.

She had all kinds of expectations put on her - I don't remember Lorelai telling her that she could be a teacher, and be happy. Or her grandparents. Although Emily might have gone along with her being an event planner - I remember her taking offense when Richard suddenly got upset over Rory still not being back in school, and Emily said, "You don't want her to be ME." 

[BlancheDevoreaux]

17 hours ago, strongercoffee said:

I have a question for you all: If you had to pick just one, who do you personally like less (and/or find yourself more frequently wanting to throttle): Rory or Lorelai? I'm excited to see everyone's answers and hear how you made this difficult choice!

Rory.  Hands down.  She was at her best in season one and seemed to regress each season after that with her ultimately ending up the immature and irresponsible character she was in the revival.  Definitely Rory.

On 11/26/2017 at 9:33 AM, Frelling Tralk said:

Well honestly I never understood how fans got that Jess was meant to be Luke in the revival. Amy did talk about Logan being Rory’s Christopher, but Jess being Rory’s Luke seems to be a case of fandom projection imho. The biggest parallel that Amy drew with Luke in the series was actually with Dean if anyone, when Dean snarled at Luke that his small-town ways would never be enough for Lorelai, and the two of them were exactly the same. But Jess is pretty much the opposite in that he seems to be travelling quite a bit and despise small town life, in the revival Jess hadn’t seen Rory in years in fact, so he was hardly the steady and dependable constant in her life the way that Luke was with Lorelai.

I agree that Dean was  more of her Luke than Jess, but I wonder if the most Luke-like character in Rory's life wasn't Marty.  He was her friend that she could just be herself with.  Like Luke in the first season, there were definite hints that Marty was interested in Rory early on, but it was apparently one-sided and she just saw him as this good friend she enjoyed spending time with. Of course, they had to sacrifice his character at the alter of Rory at the end of the series, but if you put that aside,  I would argue that Marty was the best fit for Rory of all of the guys in her life.  Of course, they destroyed his character and the character of Dean, who was my favorite relationship for Rory up until he got married. I never liked Jess at all and honestly fail to see how anyone can think he is a good fit for any person who walks upright (a person who is only nice to you until you finally agree to go out with him, completely disrespectful of boundaries regarding you and your current boyfriend, pushes you to go farther than you are ready to go even when you are saying no, and generally treats you like dirt isn't my idea of a dreamboat and anyone who is into that and is older than 14 might want to see a therapist, in my opinion). That leaves Logan who still isn't exactly a match made in heaven.  But then again, I feel like they really screwed up Rory's character in the last few seasons and revival so maybe she should be with one of the characters who is terrible or was ruined.

[Taryn74]

44 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I wonder if the most Luke-like character in Rory's life wasn't Marty.  He was her friend that she could just be herself with.  Like Luke in the first season, there were definite hints that Marty was interested in Rory early on, but it was apparently one-sided and she just saw him as this good friend she enjoyed spending time with. Of course, they had to sacrifice his character at the alter of Rory at the end of the series, but if you put that aside,  I would argue that Marty was the best fit for Rory of all of the guys in her life.

I agree with this.  I like Jess, but I don't really see him as Rory's "Luke" either (possibly in the way he shows affection by being a silent helper/fixer - maybe - but that would be the only comparison, and really that was more toward Luke than Rory) but Marty?  Yeah, Marty and Luke share a lot of characteristics and he would be the kind of steady choice that Luke is for Lorelai.

[Frelling Tralk]

17 hours ago, Anela said:

She had all kinds of expectations put on her - I don't remember Lorelai telling her that she could be a teacher, and be happy. Or her grandparents. Although Emily might have gone along with her being an event planner - I remember her taking offense when Richard suddenly got upset over Rory still not being back in school, and Emily said, "You don't want her to be ME." 

Richard definitely wouldn’t have been happy with Rory being an event planner, Rory working for the DAR was what first convinced him that Lorelai was right to be worried. Never mind that the event came off really well and Rory did a great job with organising it all, he complained to Emily that Rory was completely wasting her time on frivolous and meaningless things.

Richard had *very* high expectations that Rory was going to really make something of her life, with the subtext being that Rory’s brilliantly successful career would make up for Lorelai never getting to go on to higher education. Lorelai seemed to somewhat think along those lines herself, that Rory was her chance for a do-over, a five year old Rory fixating on getting into one of the most exclusive schools in the world had to come from somewhere

Edited November 30, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Richard definitely wouldn’t have been happy with Rory being an event planner, Rory working for the DAR was what first convinced him that Lorelai was right to be worried. Never mind that the event came off really well and Rory did a great job with organising it all, he complained to Emily that Rory was completely wasting her time on frivolous and meaningless things.

Richard had *very* high expectations that Rory was going to really make something of her life, with the subtext being that Rory’s brilliantly successful career would make up for Lorelai never getting to go on to higher education. Lorelai seemed to somewhat think along those lines herself, that Rory was her chance for a do-over, a five year old Rory fixating on getting into one of the most exclusive schools in the world had to come from somewhere

Yep, heavy expectation from both of them. Emily probably would have been happy if she'd just married Logan. I wonder what they did expect of her - was she supposed to become president, at some point? Win a Nobel prize? 

[Kohola3]

57 minutes ago, Anela said:

I wonder what they did expect of her - was she supposed to become president, at some point? Win a Nobel prize? 

I imagine those were Richard's expectation.  Emily wanted adorable grandchildren (Gilmore X Huntzberger genes) and I think she'd have been perfectly happy for Rory to lead her life as the Grand Dame of the local DAR and other charitable organizations.

[andromeda331]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:05 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

All of the above is why he was the one she turned to when she was at her lowest ; A year in the life.

The biggest failure of the Revival is failing to explain how and why Rory got to that point. Then show her getting out of that funk.

But it would’ve been a complete character arc, something ASP was not interested in.  

This yes. What happened in the last ten years? Did she work at a daily paper for awhile and if so where? What they showed us was Rory jetting back and forth to London to sleep with Logan and being completely unprofessional on the job. She didn't come off like a struggling journalist. She came off as a pampered princess taking what ever article she wanted or deciding not to do. Why not have Rory go off on rant when she's complaining about Naomi that she worked eight years at the New York Times or used to cover political events and now was having to listen to someone who's drunk all the time. Or have her breaking down that its been a really long time since she's had work and she doesn't know why. Or show her desperate to take any writing assignment just to try and stay in the game.  Show her being worried about money. Or maybe every job she had she thought 'okay this is it I'm on my way to the top' or one of the top journalists only to have it keep fizzling out. Maybe those two articles we keep hearing about only came after Rory in desperation hit up Logan for help which is how they hooked up again or they were when Rory was doing well and since then nothing. Maybe afraid to tell Lorelai how bad it is because Lorelai believed in her so much or she doesn't want her to know how bad things are.  Then we'd have a better idea of how she got to that point. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by andromeda331

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

What happened in the last ten years?

Any of those ideas would be great!

For the nine thousandth time I wish the fans could write some of the scripts LOL.

[Kohola3]

9 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

For the nine thousandth time I wish the fans could write some of the scripts LOL.

I agree but since this Unpopular Opinions forum is 104 pages long, I fear there would be nine thousand disagreements on the plots!

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

I agree but since this Unpopular Opinions forum is 104 pages long, I fear there would be nine thousand disagreements on the plots!

Ha ha ha, you're not wrong.

[nclpllm]

On 11/29/2017 at 4:02 PM, strongercoffee said:

I have a question for you all: If you had to pick just one, who do you personally like less (and/or find yourself more frequently wanting to throttle): Rory or Lorelai? I'm excited to see everyone's answers and hear how you made this difficult choice!

Rory. After watching the dvds regularly since the show ended, Lorelai has made gains. But it's always been Rory, because I wanted to throttle her in real time, the first time I watched her selfish and stupid decisions. Just the affair was threefold for me: it happened, she didn't appear to be sorry enough (or feel an ounce of empathy for Lindsay), and then she jumped into bed with the next guy she met. I wanted a redemptive arc! It didn't have to be super long! A few episodes would do! I wanted her to feel so guilty she didn't think she deserved happiness with another guy. Maybe I was asking for too much. 

It took me all of S5 to feel less mad at her, then she stole a yacht and dropped out of school. Jeez. I knew that whole arc would be a waste of time. 

On top of this, it was made worse by the never ending parade of praise heaped on her. No matter what she did, the other characters insisted she was still wonderful. It was kind of insulting, as a viewer. I SEE what she's done. Stop telling me she's the best. I know better. One could argue those characters didn't know all the details, but the writers sure as heck did, and they kept piling it on. 

It's the Sue-ish style that Rory was consistently written that irks me the most. It's one thing that she's the worst, it's another that the show can't/won't have the self-awareness to admit it.  

 

On 11/30/2017 at 7:39 PM, andromeda331 said:

This yes. What happened in the last ten years? Did she work at a daily paper for awhile and if so where? What they showed us was Rory jetting back and forth to London to sleep with Logan and being completely unprofessional on the job. She didn't come off like a struggling journalist. She came off as a pampered princess taking what ever article she wanted or deciding not to do. Why not have Rory go off on rant when she's complaining about Naomi that she worked eight years at the New York Times or used to cover political events and now was having to listen to someone who's drunk all the time. Or have her breaking down that its been a really long time since she's had work and she doesn't know why. Or show her desperate to take any writing assignment just to try and stay in the game.  Show her being worried about money. Or maybe every job she had she thought 'okay this is it I'm on my way to the top' or one of the top journalists only to have it keep fizzling out. Maybe those two articles we keep hearing about only came after Rory in desperation hit up Logan for help which is how they hooked up again or they were when Rory was doing well and since then nothing. Maybe afraid to tell Lorelai how bad it is because Lorelai believed in her so much or she doesn't want her to know how bad things are.  Then we'd have a better idea of how she got to that point. 

Or while riding high on a successful streak, she writes a piece that doesn't meet editorial standards and she looses credibility and gets fired. A fall from grace. So at revival opening, she's working her butt off to rebuild her reputation and prove herself to an editor that she can be trusted again. 

Lololololol, just kidding. This would require Rory Gilmore to admit she did something wrong, suffer real consequences, and be held accountable. This ties into what I said above. Mary Sues can do no wrong. Or is it that undercurrent of narccism? Either way, stems back to the creator, I suspect. 

The industry being where it is today gave ASP a convenient excuse. She didn't want to say Rory wasn't a good writer, it was just a bad time to try to work in journalism. It isn't her fault, she isn't to blame. Sometimes life just isn't fair to people who have done everything right (if we pretend Rory did everything right, which the show does). 

[Anela]

I get irritated watching again, for that reason: we always end up back at Rory being perfect. So many seasons of "That's not Rory." It bugs me when she's been arrested, and Lorelai goes on about how much she loves to vote, so much that she did something to retain a sticker? Come on. 

I don't hate her, it just bugs me. I remember having all kinds of expectations dumped on me, even though I didn't go to college, and wasn't rich. People tend to do that to the next generation, if they aren't too busy hating them for some reason. I have also been in the "perfect" bubble, just because I was quiet and extremely polite. Guess who isn't that way anymore? Why? Because I was trashed after standing up for myself, for one thing. That bubble kept me from getting out and living, in ways. so at least character Rory didn't get stuck there. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Anela

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, nclpllm said:

Rory. After watching the dvds regularly since the show ended, Lorelai has made gains. But it's always been Rory, because I wanted to throttle her in real time, the first time I watched her selfish and stupid decisions. Just the affair was threefold for me: it happened, she didn't appear to be sorry enough (or feel an ounce of empathy for Lindsay), and then she jumped into bed with the next guy she met. I wanted a redemptive arc! It didn't have to be super long! A few episodes would do! I wanted her to feel so guilty she didn't think she deserved happiness with another guy. Maybe I was asking for too much. 

It took me all of S5 to feel less mad at her, then she stole a yacht and dropped out of school. Jeez. I knew that whole arc would be a waste of time. 

On top of this, it was made worse by the never ending parade of praise heaped on her. No matter what she did, the other characters insisted she was still wonderful. It was kind of insulting, as a viewer. I SEE what she's done. Stop telling me she's the best. I know better. One could argue those characters didn't know all the details, but the writers sure as heck did, and they kept piling it on. 

It's the Sue-ish style that Rory was consistently written that irks me the most. It's one thing that she's the worst, it's another that the show can't/won't have the self-awareness to admit it.  

Yes! There should have been more fallout from Rory's affair with Dean. She should have been sorry. It was clear Rory going back to Dean had nothing to do with Dean. But her lack of dating all of her freshmen year and lackluster year at Yale. But there was zero moments when Rory stopped to realize it. Just like when she there wasn't any moments for her to stop and think about Lindsay. She didn't care, she didn't feel bad and was as quick to dump Dean because once again she had the attentions of someone else. Where was the fall out from her dropping out of Yale? Why was no one upset with Rory for stealing a yacht? They all acted like it was no big deal. She was upset and hurt so she stole a boat. But no one ever calls her on that either. Rory dropping out of Yale was so sudden, why not build towards it? Maybe her articles for school paper aren't any good, or doubting her writing abilities. Maybe one of her professors question her or her grades are slipping. Then when Mitchum criticizes her, that could be the last straw. They don't build towards and its so out of the blue. Plus stupid, one person criticizes her and she quits. Then does nothing during the break. That was the perfect time for Rory to re-evaluate whether or not she wanted to be a journalist, she could have tried different jobs, internships, or something.

 

Quote

 

Or while riding high on a successful streak, she writes a piece that doesn't meet editorial standards and she looses credibility and gets fired. A fall from grace. So at revival opening, she's working her butt off to rebuild her reputation and prove herself to an editor that she can be trusted again. 

Lololololol, just kidding. This would require Rory Gilmore to admit she did something wrong, suffer real consequences, and be held accountable. This ties into what I said above. Mary Sues can do no wrong. Or is it that undercurrent of narccism? Either way, stems back to the creator, I suspect. 

The industry being where it is today gave ASP a convenient excuse. She didn't want to say Rory wasn't a good writer, it was just a bad time to try to work in journalism. It isn't her fault, she isn't to blame. Sometimes life just isn't fair to people who have done everything right (if we pretend Rory did everything right, which the show does)..

 

That would have worked too. Its a very good reason for Rory not to be writing and kicking herself over messing up. Rory facing zero consequences or problems isn't fun to watch. Or is it normal. I'm not saying I want Rory to be miserable. But I want her to face her consequences or to have problems to overcome. It was fun watching Season one as Rory was the underdog at Chilton. When she beat Paris at answering the question in the second episode. Or when Paris was trying to drive her off the paper by giving her crappy assignments. Rory countered by writing a really good article. Rory melting down in the fourth episode when she got a D. I know ASP ignored season seven but it was really nice having Rory not get the New York Times. Then watching the fall out. She panic at getting letters that no one was hiring. That embarrassing phone call to the newspaper she turned down. She was so normal in that. She didn't get the internship and was devastated. Then it continued as she wasn't finding a job, and everyone else around her was. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, nclpllm said:

This ties into what I said above. Mary Sues can do no wrong. Or is it that undercurrent of narcicism? Either way, stems back to the creator, I suspect.

Holy sh!t.  This isn't even the way you meant that sentence, I suspect, but I just realized -

ASP isn't Lorelai, she's Rory.  (At least in her own mind, since we viewers have been seeing the cracks underneath the surface for a long, long time.)

Everything the characters believe about Rory on the show, ASP believes about herself.  She can do no wrong . . . her writing and characters are beyond reproach . . . everything "wrong" with the show is someone else's fault . . . she openly disdains even the hint of criticism . . . anyone who does dare criticize her is just a big fat meanie who doesn't know what they are talking about . . . zero self-awareness of the damage she leaves in her wake . . . I could go on and on.

I can't believe I've never seen this before!

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

Holy sh!t.  This isn't even the way you meant that sentence, I suspect, but I just realized -

ASP isn't Lorelai, she's Rory.  (At least in her own mind, since we viewers have been seeing the cracks underneath the surface for a long, long time.)

Everything the characters believe about Rory on the show, ASP believes about herself.  She can do no wrong . . . her writing and characters are beyond reproach . . . everything "wrong" with the show is someone else's fault . . . she openly disdains even the hint of criticism . . . anyone who does dare criticize her is just a big fat meanie who doesn't know what they are talking about . . . zero self-awareness of the damage she leaves in her wake . . . I could go on and on.

I can't believe I've never seen this before!

I never considered that. But that does sound more like ASP and Rory. 

[nclpllm]

On 12/5/2017 at 1:32 PM, andromeda331 said:

ut there was zero moments when Rory stopped to realize it. Just like when she there wasn't any moments for her to stop and think about Lindsay. She didn't care, she didn't feel bad

The closest she got to regret or sorrow, I felt, was when Lane and Lorelai were talking about other girls flirting with their men, and called those girls trollop (I think?) and slut. Rory's face clouds and she's unable to listen because she's too self-conscious about what mean names people might call her. 

When she felt cheated on by Logan, she could have gotten some insight into what was like to be Lindsay (sort of, Lindsay wasn't separated from Dean). But by then the affair plot was long gone and forgotten. Let us not forget when Rory told Logan she could only offer the next guy a sweater after that reverend talked to her about her virtue. I know it was just a punch line, but it annoyed me. Did she forget what she did with Dean? I didn't!

I did appreciate the nytimes rejection, but also felt it was too little too late. I give the S7 writers credit for understanding how to generate empathy for characters. 

On 12/5/2017 at 1:32 PM, andromeda331 said:

Why was no one upset with Rory for stealing a yacht?

Well, she suddenly worried about ink on her hands and Lorelai was so relieved that all was well with the world again, all was forgiven. Also, it was Logan's fault. 

On 12/5/2017 at 2:47 PM, Taryn74 said:

ASP isn't Lorelai, she's Rory. (At least in her own mind

Oh yeah, I know. I was having a PM back and forth with someone last year and she came to the same conclusion about ASP/Rory. Notice the similarity in the way people gave ASP a total pass for years for the disaster that is S6, blaming it on the network; and the way Logan/Mitchum were blamed for yacht/dropout/estrangement.  

Look what they made her do. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

On 12/8/2017 at 2:41 PM, nclpllm said:

The closest she got to regret or sorrow, I felt, was when Lane and Lorelai were talking about other girls flirting with their men, and called those girls trollop (I think?) and slut. Rory's face clouds and she's unable to listen because she's too self-conscious about what mean names people might call her. 

I don’t remember this scene. When did that happen?

[blueray]

Quote

Yes! There should have been more fallout from Rory's affair with Dean. She should have been sorry. It was clear Rory going back to Dean had nothing to do with Dean. But her lack of dating all of her freshmen year and lackluster year at Yale. But there was zero moments when Rory stopped to realize it. Just like when she there wasn't any moments for her to stop and think about Lindsay. She didn't care, she didn't feel bad and was as quick to dump Dean because once again she had the attentions of someone else.

Dean dumped her actually. He decided to do it in front of people at her grandparents house.

 

As for Lindsay, I agree Rory should have felt bad for what happened. She had no reason to believe that Dean and Lindsay were done when she slept with him. And while she seemed sad a first, she should have cared more. And also Dean should have cared more, then to cheat on her. Because to be fair it takes two to cheat.

[junienmomo]

11 hours ago, blueray said:

Dean dumped her actually. He decided to do it in front of people at her grandparents house.

 

As for Lindsay, I agree Rory should have felt bad for what happened. She had no reason to believe that Dean and Lindsay were done when she slept with him. And while she seemed sad a first, she should have cared more. And also Dean should have cared more, then to cheat on her. Because to be fair it takes two to cheat.

Nicely said. 

In light of recent analysis or conjecture that ASP is more like Rory than Lorelai, what does that say about ASP? It would surely explain the scorched earth self-pity party that was season six. Steal a yacht? Peanuts compared to disappointing and baffling millions of fans.

[nclpllm]

On 12/12/2017 at 1:42 PM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I don’t remember this scene. When did that happen?

It's the episode when Rory gets back from Europe. After being called a monster by Lindsay's mom they go to the diner and Lane tells Rory about the two girls that were with Zach. She calls them dirty trollops and Rory repeats, "Dirty trollops?" and has a concerned expression on her face and stops listening. Wondering what mean names people might call her. Then at the end of the episode at home Lorelai talks about Luke at the ren fest, and that she'd 'joust the slut' who was flirting with Luke. Rory again looks uncomfortable. 

The transcript indicates Rory's feelings of misery. It just comes off as more concern about what people will think of her rather than guilt over ruining someone's life. 

On 12/17/2017 at 5:11 AM, junienmomo said:

In light of recent analysis or conjecture that ASP is more like Rory than Lorelai, what does that say about ASP?

Not enough love in her childhood? Deep-seated insecurity?  That's what I've assumed for a while. Whatever S6 was about, she didn't want to deal with it in "her S8." I take that as her silent admission that it was terrible. 

[Kohola3]

9 hours ago, nclpllm said:

Not enough love in her childhood? Deep-seated insecurity?

Except that Rory had neither of those issues.  Or is it ASP imagining what a teenager might be who had the opposite of her life?

And I don't think the Palladino's have a very warm relationship.  Not that every couple is touchy-feely but the lack of physical contact and "I love you" from L & L make me think that the Paladino's are pretty hands off in their married life.  

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

 

And I don't think the Palladino's have a very warm relationship.  Not that every couple is touchy-feely but the lack of physical contact and "I love you" from L & L make me think that the Paladino's are pretty hands off in their married life.  

The first time I watched the OS I never noticed they didn’t say the three little words until Luke said it in Vineyard Valentine. Unlike many, I always liked their relationship; their banter and the non-verbal way of expressing affection. That’s why Luke’s behavior was so disappointing in season 6. Had the revival been a year or 2 later, their story wouldn’t have been as bad. ASP should have worked a different angle for them.

[Anela]

28 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

The first time I watched the OS I never noticed they didn’t say the three little words until Luke said it in Vineyard Valentine. Unlike many, I always liked their relationship; their banter and the non-verbal way of expressing affection. That’s why Luke’s behavior was so disappointing in season 6. Had the revival been a year or 2 later, their story wouldn’t have been as bad. ASP should have worked a different angle for them.

I started watching the series again last night, to help me sleep (and I dropped off right away - i was feeling the effects of Jose Cuervo, and didn't think I would sleep).

anyway, I woke up at some point, when Luke commented on Lorelai not dating a chilton dad, and thought they had more chemistry in the first season, than when they were dating. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Anela

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

I started watching the series again last night, to help me sleep (and I dropped off right away - i was feeling the effects of Jose Cuervo, and didn't think I would sleep).

anyway, I woke up at some point, when Luke commented on Lorelai not dating a chilton dad, and thought they had more chemistry in the first season, than when they were dating. 

I have heard that a lot and I believe that sexual tension between friends was very strong. But it seemed like that dropped off some in season 3. I’m just saying their paring worked for me even though ASP doesn’t write good relationships. L&L probably worked so well because I’ve read she didn’t really want them together. If that’s true, it must have been a kick in her ass! 

[MatildaMoody]

On 12/27/2017 at 3:29 PM, FictionLover said:

I have heard that a lot and I believe that sexual tension between friends was very strong. But it seemed like that dropped off some in season 3. I’m just saying their paring worked for me even though ASP doesn’t write good relationships. L&L probably worked so well because I’ve read she didn’t really want them together. If that’s true, it must have been a kick in her ass! 

I've never believed the bolded part to be the case. She wrote for one of the best television relationships of all time, Dan and Rosanne Conner. She simply did a terrible job of writing Luke and Lorelai's relationship. 

[Frelling Tralk]

On 27/12/2017 at 5:41 PM, Anela said:

I started watching the series again last night, to help me sleep (and I dropped off right away - i was feeling the effects of Jose Cuervo, and didn't think I would sleep).

anyway, I woke up at some point, when Luke commented on Lorelai not dating a chilton dad, and thought they had more chemistry in the first season, than when they were dating. 

I thought the same thing, the actors were good early on with the flirty UST and the longing looks, but they clearly weren’t comfortable with portraying physical intimacy with one another. Their kisses were nearly always very quick pecks, and Lorelai would look stiff and uncomfortable in scenes where she was meant to be snuggled into Luke’s lap or whatever. They generally brought it whenever they had big moments that were specifically scripted as passionate reunion kisses for example, but the day to day interaction just didn’t scream passionate and loving couple to me. I think that often a lack of chemistry is just about the body language between the actors though, chemistry is either there or it’s not, and so you (general you) can’t really point your finger at the writing for that.

Things like Lorelai looking so terrified of Luke’s reactions (for example the way she totally shut down in the revival when Luke snapped about April) always seemed like they were more personal actors choices, rather than being specifically scripted and directed to look miserable together.  I think that both actors could have softened the writing more than they did, instead most of the time they both seemed to actually want to emphasis how uncomfortable and mismatched Luke and Lorelai were as a couple 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Frelling Tralk

[FictionLover]

4 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I thought the same thing, the actors were good early on with the flirty UST and the longing looks, but they clearly weren’t comfortable with portraying physical intimacy with one another. Their kisses were nearly always very quick pecks, and Lorelai would look stiff and uncomfortable in scenes where she was meant to be snuggled into Luke’s lap or whatever. They generally brought it whenever they had big moments that were specifically scripted as passionate reunion kisses for example, but the day to day interaction just didn’t scream passionate and loving couple to me. I think that often a lack of chemistry is just about the body language between the actors though, chemistry is either there or it’s not, and so you (general you) can’t really point your finger at the writing for that.

Things like Lorelai looking so terrified of Luke’s reactions (for example the way she totally shut down in the revival when Luke snapped about April) always seemed like they were more personal actors choices, rather than being specifically scripted and directed to look miserable together.  I think that both actors could have softened the writing more than they did, instead most of the time they both seemed to actually want to emphasis how uncomfortable and mismatched Luke and Lorelai were as a couple 

I love Luke and Lorelai but I also get Why some don’t. I can’t stand Roxanne Barr so I never got into the show but I did try. Different strokes for different folks! :)

[nclpllm]

On 12/27/2017 at 7:29 AM, Kohola3 said:

Except that Rory had neither of those issues.  Or is it ASP imagining what a teenager might be who had the opposite of her life?

Well, I want to say Rory was the fantasy- getting the constant and unrelenting, perhaps "deserved" praise for being so brilliant and special. Lorelai is more the reality- talkative, the references, the issues with her mother. Not that it's good to try to psychoanalyze a person from a distance, she just irks me so much and for such a long time, I want to pinpoint why.   

 

On 12/27/2017 at 2:29 PM, FictionLover said:

L&L probably worked so well because I’ve read she didn’t really want them together. If that’s true, it must have been a kick in her ass! 

I didn't know she admitted to it, but I've suspected as much. Ever since I watched the S5 special features, where she and Dan comment over You Jump I Jump Jack, and she kept saying they were delivering on what they had 'promised in the pilot': Luke and the inn for Lorelai. It sounded so obligatory, not something they were carefully working toward and excited for and worried about getting right. She wrote herself into a corner when she played off their chemistry. I know she likes writing for actors, it's a reason she writes, she has said. And she wants total absolute freedom to do whatever she wants. Luke was just a guy they threw in at the last minute for some testosterone. Maybe she resented the constriction, it was an end to bringing in actors she likes (until the Sherry-ectomy, that is). But that's just a guess. We'll never know. It could just be that we're supposed to be solely fascinated and dazzled by Lorelai. 

ASP kept mum about Rory in the commentary. I believe Harvard and Tristan were the promises there, based on a feeling I had that longing looks were meaningful. But she maybe didn't want to draw attention to Logan being the reincarnation/substitute. It was a big theory I had a few years ago. I thought a promise from so early on would mean they'd have to end up together. Delivering on promises, and all. I've stopped deluding myself into thinking military school would have meant a more appealing Tristan- that would require continuity and character development. From ASP. Knowing now the big finish and how it was contrived, I'm over it.

But I digress.

I will say ASP has learned one thing: don't let the men linger. Her protagonist(s) are the center of the universe, guys only distract from them. While she doesn't hold herself responsible for the boyfriend wars, I have noticed her projects since Gilmore don't have men as regular cast members. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by nclpllm

[stan4]

Ooh, I have many unpopular opinions.

 

1.  Rory and Lorelai are simply horrible people.  Self-absorbed narcissists who have the gall to get upset at other people for the same behavior (or even behavior that isn't nearly as bad).

2.  Logan was Rory's best fit (educated, similar goals/background, challenged her, etc) and actually one of the only characters who demonstrated personal growth (until it was taken back in the revival).

3.  The revival was total drek.  I mean, it was BEYOND garbage.

4.  Jess is a dick.  I have met and know many guys like Jess and they are exhausting and they are generally dicks.  He was a HORRIBLE boyfriend and then gets mad when his gf tries to stop him from mauling her.  He's rude to everyone, he thinks his snarky "cynicism" makes him cool, and he hits below the belt for no reason.  I will never understand why anyone is "Team Jess."

5.  I liked Season 7.

6.  Rory's story lines were the most boring for me.