Season 6: Speculation

[bunnyblue]

45 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I would like to see season 8 scenes where the survivors are rewarded, though. Ever since reading how the Lannisters and Tyrells celebrated their victory by giving castles and titles to their allies, I've hoped that the final book would have similar scenes where places like the Twins and the Dreadfort get new lords.

Yes! I would love to see Lord Tormund Giantsbane, lord of the Last Hearth as a final FU to Smalljon Umber for turning over Rickon. I'd also like to see Ser Davos Seaworth, Lord of Karhold. The Dreadfort needs to be torched. If the Lannisters and Tyrells can give castles to their buddies, I want to see the Starks do the same to their loyal allies. I'm sure this will never happen, but I can dream.

[ElizaD]

13 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Yes! I would love to see Lord Tormund Giantsbane, lord of the Last Hearth as a final FU to Smalljon Umber for turning over Rickon.

...I hadn't thought about it, but the Umber sigil being a giant would make Tormund Giantsbane's victory extra delicious. Now I want this to happen even more!

[Umbelina]

I'd rather see all the Lords eliminated, and the system of inherited power dismantled completely.

[Macbeth]

I really don't want Dany to survive.  I understand she needs to be there to at least direct Drogon to kill the wights (I think the other 2 dragons will be blocking her text messages to them with the captivity and all).   But if she could expire right after from injuries - That would work for me.

She is a little to crazy for me to have all of that power.  She gets mad at you- you may be fed to a dragon.

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Yes! I would love to see Lord Tormund Giantsbane, lord of the Last Hearth as a final FU to Smalljon Umber for turning over Rickon. I'd also like to see Ser Davos Seaworth, Lord of Karhold. The Dreadfort needs to be torched. If the Lannisters and Tyrells can give castles to their buddies, I want to see the Starks do the same to their loyal allies. I'm sure this will never happen, but I can dream.

I've always kind of wanted to see Davos end up with Storm's End, given that the Baratheon's look to be on the way out.

[Maximum Taco]

On 5/12/2016 at 6:42 PM, AshleyN said:

I've always kind of wanted to see Davos end up with Storm's End, given that the Baratheon's look to be on the way out.

That'd be awesome. House Seaworth of Storm's End.

He could put some crossed forks of lightning on the background of his current sigil of the Onion Ship to make it look like it's sailing through a storm.

[ElizaD]

Last chance to post before the first Stark reunion! I was surprisingly indifferent to Jon's resurrection and the Tower of Joy but I absolutely loved the happy Stark flashback, so I hope that's the mood this episode's extremely likely Jon/Sansa meeting will go for. Viewers have waited for a reunion for years and readers even longer: it should feel like a huge event and not as "whatever" as the other characters' reaction to Jon coming back to life. I also hope that there will be a scene with just Jon and Sansa, either in 6x04 or 6x05, where they can talk about what's happened to them.

[Constantinople]

Partly for reasons of PR and partly because Ramsay will take a shine to Rickon, the wild, feral Stark, Ramsay won't kill Rickon immediately but rule in his name as regent.  Then, when he's not paying attention, Rickon will knife Ramsay in the throat with a walnut shank.

[Oscirus]

I don't think Jon and Sansa will reunite until the end of the season. Sansa just misses Jon or something contrived like that.

Will Ramsey try to make Rickon Reek on?  hmmm

[Knuckles]

I worry about Osha. Yes, she is clever and I am sure she has sized Ramsay up for what he is, but as she is one of my favorites, I am dreading her being held by the Boltons. Like Arya, I have a list of my own, and Karstark and Umber have now been added. May they die soon in great pain.

[jjjmoss]

I know this has been talked about previously, but currently is there any region Sansa could have a legitimate claim to besides Winterfell? Or if enough people die who have better claims?

Edited May 16, 2016 by jjjmoss

[Oscirus]

19 minutes ago, jjjmoss said:

I know this has been talked about previously, but currently is there any region Sansa could have a legitimate claim to besides Winterfell? Or if enough people die who have better claims?

Provided that Dany pardons Tyrion once she becomes queen, and if Sansa chooses to accept her marriage to Tyrion, she'd be lady of the Rock.

[mac123x]

59 minutes ago, jjjmoss said:

I know this has been talked about previously, but currently is there any region Sansa could have a legitimate claim to besides Winterfell? Or if enough people die who have better claims?

If her uncle Edmure dies without children, she could have a claim on Riverrun also.  Elder daughter of the elder daughter.

[FemmyV]

In the scenes for next week, it looks scary for Bran. Too much time underwater?

[Chris24601]

17 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

In the scenes for next week, it looks scary for Bran. Too much time underwater?

That's what I'm thinking. I will also put down a non-trivial chance that whatever Bran does by staying under too long ends up putting them all in danger because the Night's King notices Bran. An apprentice making a mistake that ends up costing their mentor their life in order to spare them the consequences, thereby forcing the apprentice to both own up to the mistake and have to fix things without the mentor being able to help him is a trope as old as storytelling.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Provided that Dany pardons Tyrion once she becomes queen, and if Sansa chooses to accept her marriage to Tyrion, she'd be lady of the Rock.

Sansa has no claim to the Rock, though, the way Tyrion theoretically would if Dany nullifies his attainder once she becomes queen. Sansa could exercise power as regent the way Lysa exercised power in the Vale if she bore Tyrion an heir and Tyrion died, but she has no independent claim in her own right, no more than Lysa had an independent claim in her own right to the Vale when she married Jon Arryn.

My guess for Bran in 6x05 is that he tries to go off on his own in a vision without Bloodraven's assistance and guidance. We know that Bloodraven has been taking Bran to see different visions, and that Bran hasn't been able to decide where and when they go. IHW talked about Bran showing "hubris" this season. What could be more dangerously arrogant than Bran trying to do some independent exploring without the benefit of Bloodraven's guiding hand? I could easily see him getting into trouble if Bloodraven is not allowing him to explore on his own.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[Alapaki]

Quote

My guess for Bran in 6x05 is that he tries to go off on his own in a vision without Bloodraven's assistance and guidance. We know that Bloodraven has been taking Bran to see different visions, and that Bran hasn't been able to decide where and when they go. IHW talked about Bran showing "hubris" this season. What could be more dangerously arrogant than Bran trying to do some independent exploring without the benefit of Bloodraven's guiding hand? I could easily see him getting into trouble if Bloodraven is not allowing him to explore on his own.

I think that's very plausible.  From what I understand based on comments upthread, based on the choice of directors, we should expect the TOJ flashback to be concluded either in episode 5 or 6.  The tease for episode 5 was Bran in the North with the King's Night, however.  I can't imagine they'd include the TOJ denouement without teasing it in the previews.

It would seem odd, narratively, for Bran to be shown something else by the Three-Eyed-Raven before being shown the end of TOJ.  So any other flashback may be the result of Bran going rogue.  

If, as I suspect, the R+L=J reveal is going to have significance within the narrative (i.e. it's something that the 3eR wants/needs Bran to know in order for Bran to do something with that knowledge) then perhaps having Bran barely survive a rogue road trip might prompt the 3eR to reveal the end of TOJ (in episode 6) sooner than he'd prefer to.

[Advance35]

Now that Jon and Sansa are united and dedicated to taking back Winterfell, I hope for Sansa's sake that she does choose to forgive, or at least pretend too with Littlefinger.   IF Jon/Sansa come out alive and triumphant against Ramsay they don't get to hum "And we live happily ever after...."  Not just White Walkers either.  IF Cersei and House Tyrell manage to outs the High Sparrow and his followers, guess who becomes public enemy number 1 as far as Kings Landing is concerned?   That's right, the fugitive from the Iron Throne suspected of being complicit in the murder of the King.   Cersei will be turning her malevolent gave to the North since she knows where Sansa is these days.  Though Sansa is no fool and she's certainly gotten fiesty, I don't think she's up to taking on The Lannisters and The Tyrells (they are united through marriage and the Tyrells have an interest in making sure Sansa maintains "credit" for Joffrey's murder) on the political field of combat.   It's one of the reason's I'm not so sure I'm against the High Sparrow coming out ahead.

I wonder how the plot to free Margaery and bring about the Downfall of the High Sparrow is going to go wrong, because you know it will.   Someone pointed it out before and it's true.  The Tyrells are footing the bill for this coming manuever in terms of Men and Public Opinion.  If things go REALLY south, it's the Tyrells that will be said to slaughter the pious.

[Maximum Taco]

14 hours ago, jjjmoss said:

I know this has been talked about previously, but currently is there any region Sansa could have a legitimate claim to besides Winterfell? Or if enough people die who have better claims?

She would have a claim to Riverrun and the Riverlands through her mother, if Edmure Tully (and any heirs he begets) were to die. Of course Bran and Rickon would come before her in this inheritance as they do in the inheritance of Winterfell.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

13 hours ago, mac123x said:

If her uncle Edmure dies without children, she could have a claim on Riverrun also.  Elder daughter of the elder daughter.

The Blackfish would be the current heir to Riverrun.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

The Blackfish would be the current heir to Riverrun.

No, as Lord Hoster's brother the Blackfish is behind Hoster's own descendants.  The current ordering for House Tully is:

1. Lord Edmure Tully (son of Lord Hoster)
2. Bran Stark (eldest living son of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
3. Rickon Stark (second living son of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
4. Sansa Stark (eldest daughter of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
5. Arya Stark (younger daughter of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
6. Robin Arryn (only son of Lord Hoster's younger daughter)
7. Brynden Tully (Lord Hoster's brother)

[Meredith Quill]

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, as Lord Hoster's brother the Blackfish is behind Hoster's own descendants.  The current ordering for House Tully is:

1. Lord Edmure Tully (son of Lord Hoster)
2. Bran Stark (eldest living son of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
3. Rickon Stark (second living son of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
4. Sansa Stark (eldest daughter of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
5. Arya Stark (younger daughter of Lord Hoster's eldest daughter)
6. Robin Arryn (only son of Lord Hoster's younger daughter)
7. Brynden Tully (Lord Hoster's brother)

Yup, my bad, for some reason I thought a brother came before a daughter in Westeros.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Now that Jon and Sansa are united and dedicated to taking back Winterfell, I hope for Sansa's sake that she does choose to forgive, or at least pretend too with Littlefinger.   IF Jon/Sansa come out alive and triumphant against Ramsay they don't get to hum "And we live happily ever after...."  Not just White Walkers either.  IF Cersei and House Tyrell manage to outs the High Sparrow and his followers, guess who becomes public enemy number 1 as far as Kings Landing is concerned?   That's right, the fugitive from the Iron Throne suspected of being complicit in the murder of the King.   Cersei will be turning her malevolent gave to the North since she knows where Sansa is these days.  Though Sansa is no fool and she's certainly gotten fiesty, I don't think she's up to taking on The Lannisters and The Tyrells (they are united through marriage and the Tyrells have an interest in making sure Sansa maintains "credit" for Joffrey's murder) on the political field of combat.   It's one of the reason's I'm not so sure I'm against the High Sparrow coming out ahead.

I don't think Jon and Sansa have to worry about the Lannisters/Tyrells/Faith Militant. I think that whole thing pile is going to detonate (perhaps literally given some of the spec about Cersei eventually pulling a Mad King) and take out most of the significant players long before they have time to turn their attention North. Provided Cersei and Tommen are taken out, Olena would probably have more reason not to poke at Sansa than pursue her, lest what she might have learned from Littlefinger of her family's involvement in Joffrey's murder be used against her.

Realistically, even if there were no White Walkers or Dany coming to freeze and burn the ever-loving crap out Westeros and even if Cersei pulled off a win against the Faith that saw both Tommen and Margery survive, there's just been too much war and chaos with an ordinary winter on the way for the crown to push a military campaign north of the Neck any time soon and a years long winter would give the North years to both fortify against any southern aggression and wage a diplomatic campaign regarding Sansa's innocence to make it an unappealing prospect. If Jon learns of his heritage you could also add veiled threats to use that heritage to make a claim for the throne (after all, Robert's original claim was that he had Targ blood in his ancestry and there was no one still alive with a better claim; which was the reason killing Viserys and Dany was actually a priority for them).

That said, the situation in King's Landing is totally going to fall apart and Dany is going to sweep in and take over and she doesn't give a damn about who killed the Usurpers on "her" throne and Tyrion wouldn't have an interest in pursuing Sansa. The biggest issue would probably be Dany's stupid "let's break the wheel" and "every family who once opposed my family must pay" mentality that would make her see the Starks as a natural enemy... a view that is, in its own way, as destructively dogmatic as the High Sparrow's 'all nobles are automatically evil and must be torn down' deal (actually, if they can survive until Dany reaches them I suspect they'd make natural allies, much to the rest of the world's detriment).

Between the Dothraki (house words: Murder, Rape, Plunder), the inevitable alliance with the Ironborn ("We do not sow"), a possible alliance with the Faith ("Let's tear it all down") and a trio of living WMD's I'm sensing a quite literal "Fire and Blood" situation in Westeros' near future.

So Fire and Death on one side, Ice and Death on the other and what basically amounts to the last few decent people left in the entire story (Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, Edd, Brienne, Pod) stuck in the middle. My hope is that, after seizing Winterfell, Jon and Sansa just get their people the heck out of the way and let Dany and the Others murder each other, then begin the long task of rebuilding the world afterward.

[Conan Troutman]

There's also Dorne. Even if Cersei comes out on top, she'll probably have to deal with the threat from the south first. And given that they killed her daughter, she has ample reason to. There's also the possibility that she learns that Sansa wasn't involved in Joffrey's murder. Maybe Olenna or Margaery spill the beans for whatever reason or LF, after officially aligning with Sansa, sends her a raven to split the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Then there's Jamie, who swore to protect Sansa, who might intervene. Yeah, I don't see her going after Sansa. 

[anyanka323]

On 5/12/2016 at 0:18 PM, bunnyblue said:

Yes! I would love to see Lord Tormund Giantsbane, lord of the Last Hearth as a final FU to Smalljon Umber for turning over Rickon. I'd also like to see Ser Davos Seaworth, Lord of Karhold. The Dreadfort needs to be torched. If the Lannisters and Tyrells can give castles to their buddies, I want to see the Starks do the same to their loyal allies. I'm sure this will never happen, but I can dream.

It will be interesting to see if there's a change in the status quo in the North following Jon and Sansa retaking Winterfell.  Brienne is another one who could get rewarded with land holdings for her service to the Stark women. 

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

There's also Dorne. Even if Cersei comes out on top, she'll probably have to deal with the threat from the south first. And given that they killed her daughter, she has ample reason to. There's also the possibility that she learns that Sansa wasn't involved in Joffrey's murder. Maybe Olenna or Margaery spill the beans for whatever reason or LF, after officially aligning with Sansa, sends her a raven to split the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. Then there's Jamie, who swore to protect Sansa, who might intervene. Yeah, I don't see her going after Sansa. 

Was it in the book that it was revealed that Dorne's secret is that it doesn't really have a strong army to speak of?  It's mainly protected by its geographic location (similar to the way the narrowness of The Neck had traditionally protected the North from assaults from the south.  

Unless Dorne shows itself to be aggressive (and given the changes already made by D&D maybe that will be the case) I'd think Cersei would have more pressing issues than Dorne.  

But I do agree that right now the Lannisters in KL are beset on all sides and woefully unable to deal with all of the threats.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Yup, my bad, for some reason I thought a brother came before a daughter in Westeros.

Well the Targs bypass all female heirs for available males. But even under that form of succession Bran, Rickon and Robin Arryn would come before Brynden Tully.

[screamin]

On 5/15/2016 at 3:50 PM, Constantinople said:

Partly for reasons of PR and partly because Ramsay will take a shine to Rickon, the wild, feral Stark, Ramsay won't kill Rickon immediately but rule in his name as regent. 

I really don't want to think about the implications of Ramsay taking a shine to Rickon.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, the only thing I want for Ramsay is a grisly death.  Or, you know, an embarrassing one.  Or, a painful one.

Basically I just want him dead.

[Conan Troutman]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, the only thing I want for Ramsay is a grisly death.  Or, you know, an embarrassing one.  Or, a painful one.

It can be three things. 

[Oscirus]

Hope this show isn't as Hollywood as this but I could see the final battle of this show mirroring Robert's Rebellion.  Jon vs Dany with Tyrion trying to stay out of it hiding at the rock until he has no choice but to pick a side.

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Hope this show isn't as Hollywood as this but I could see the final battle of this show mirroring Robert's Rebellion.  Jon vs Dany with Tyrion trying to stay out of it hiding at the rock until he has no choice but to pick a side.

I never really thought they were going to go for an "everything changes, but everything stays the same ending" but it'd be kind of funny.

Sansa on the Iron Throne as Queen after having deposed the Targaryen monarch, in a loveless marriage to a Lannister (Tyrion) and involved in an incestuous affair with her 'brother' and Lord Commander of the Queensguard (Jon Snow.)

[nksarmi]

Nah the Others is just too huge for this to come down to a fight between men/women for the Iron Throne. If there is ONE ruler at the end of this story - I think they will half achieve it by survival alone. I would put ZERO predictions on Jon or Dany surviving the battle that saves the realm.

If I had to make a narrative guess, the story on the show (since we don't have Aegon to account for) should proceed with Dany arriving with the lower realm in utter chaos. At this point, Cersei has made a total mess of things with her empowerment of the FM and her targeting of Marg (and her inability to realize that once Robert B died - she was no longer queen).

I think the High Sparrow believes all that he is saying but I also believe he is a bit of a hypocrite. Not for how he treats Lancel vs. Loras or whatever but because I think his efforts really ARE a power grab. Given all that Lancel likely confessed AND the claims Stannis and Ned Stark made about Cersei's children and I think it is very likely that the High Sparrow realizes that Tommen is not the rightful ruler of the 7 Kingdoms. But until he is a young child who can be shaped, molded, and controlled - which is likely the only reason Marg is in prison and Cersei was taken down. The High Sparrow is leaving a king in power that he probably knows isn't the rightful ruler while trying to eliminate those who control Tommen so he himself can do the controlling. The actor is playing him very well, but the High Sparrow is playing the game the same as the rest of them.

If he wasn't - he would have called for Cersei and Jamie to be tried by the 7 and for the truth of Stannis and Ned Stark's claims to be determined. Then if they were found guilty - he would have crowned Stannis. But here's the rub in that - Stannis is being consulted by the Red Woman and is worshiping a different god than the 7. So the High Sparrow prevents the rightful ruler from ascending and covers up a crime everyone knows has been committed to ensure a more pliable ruler remains on the throne. Now that both Stannis and Shireen are dead on the show - it would be even more difficult to figure out who should be ruling instead of Tommen and the High Sparrow doesn't care for that unknown element either. So yea he's a player like the rest but he's far too pious to ever admit it.

Anyway, between the High Sparrow and Cersei - the Tyrells are going down on the show (in the books they have a couple of more sons to rely on so who knows). Mace is useless, Loras is broken, and Marg is going to have to figure out what the hell she can do to get herself out of this mess and that probably means playing along with the High Sparrow's games. But if she does, she will probably sacrifice any power she has just to live. Cersei doesn't have the power to take out the FM and Kevan isn't proving himself particularly capable on the show. I don't think the Lannisters have much left in them even if they do survive the mess she made. And I doubt seriously the Sand Snakes won't be responsible for another murder or two before season's end.

I just don't see how much fight Dany is going to have to face when she finally arrives - especially if she does align with the Ironborn on the show rather than having to fight against them. Heck, even in the books, I've long thought GRRM was dropping serious hints that Dany's biggest enemies were going to be the Faith and the Citadel.

I can see most of season seven being about Dany dealing with what little opposition she truly has while Jon figures out how to deal with the Others. Then in season eight they meet in the middle for him to convince her that the Army he has formed isn't to fight her but to fight the dead. Then the last few episodes will probably actually be everyone on the same side fighting the Others with anyone who hasn't died already being up for grabs to kill. I don't even have a prediction as to rather or not Jon or Dany survive that last fight.

The last episode will probably wrap up the stories of whoever lives, but I really think the "winner" of the Game of Thrones is just going to be whoever is "lucky" enough to live at the end.

[Chris24601]

57 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Nah the Others is just too huge for this to come down to a fight between men/women for the Iron Throne. If there is ONE ruler at the end of this story - I think they will half achieve it by survival alone. I would put ZERO predictions on Jon or Dany surviving the battle that saves the realm.

I can make that prediction... Jon lives because he's already died once and there's no narrative benefit to killing him again and because his happy ending is something we can all relate to; returning home to raise a family in peace. A Cincinnatus-type figure doesn't need to die when the conflict has ended because their only goal is to end the conflict so they can go back to a quieter and simpler life.

Dany dies because the set up is all there for her to be reunited with Drogo and her son in death, and also because her happy ending is one a conquering tyrant. Better for her to go out a hero and be remembered for saving the realm than live on and become another Mad King like her father.

[Tikichick]

In the current episode thread there is the question raised of who is the rightful heir to the throne as things stand on the show, considering the current condition of the Baratheon and Lannister families.  Limiting to the question to the throne as it's understood in Kings Landing at the current time and not the wider, overarching story of the entireties of the kingdoms overall, I think we may be getting ready for Cersei to receive some more Lannister gold as Tommen falls in the tussle coming up with the Tyrell forces, the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant and whatever missions Cersei employs the royal and Lannister forces to carry out.  I think the High Sparrow intends to step forward into the vacuum presented in Kings Landing and claim the throne by virtue of the force of the Faith Militant, sans a deceased Lancel; by virtue of the backing of the people he has been courting affection with, the common people;  AND by birth, revealing himself somehow to possess a secret birthright connection which entitles him to sit upon the throne.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

The last episode will probably wrap up the stories of whoever lives, but I really think the "winner" of the Game of Thrones is just going to be whoever is "lucky" enough to live at the end.

Agreed. It really will be a war of attrition.

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

I never really thought they were going to go for an "everything changes, but everything stays the same ending" but it'd be kind of funny.

Sansa on the Iron Throne as Queen after having deposed the Targaryen monarch, in a loveless marriage to a Lannister (Tyrion) and involved in an incestuous affair with her 'brother' and Lord Commander of the Queensguard (Jon Snow.)

Even assuming Sansa's going to be queen at the end of all this (an extremely unlikely scenario to me due to a number of things), Sansa wouldn't stay married to Tyrion by choice, and if she's powerful enough to rule Westeros in this hypothetical scenario, she's powerful enough to avoid a marriage she doesn't want. (Think Elizabeth I.) The only reason Sansa would stay married to Tyrion in a sham political marriage is if he offered some sort of political value, and as not only a dwarf (considered in Westeros amusing grotesques at best, twisted monsters at worst), but also a Lannister (a family whose stock is not likely to be terribly high at the end of all this) known to have murdered his father and judged in a trial by combat as having murdered the king, I'm guessing he wouldn't be all that useful to her. He's pretty much the anti-Margaery as trophy mates go. If Sansa were looking for a trophy husband, she'd probably marry someone like Willas Tyrell: brings the Reach resources, very well-liked, probably superhot (given that his siblings are all very good-looking), etc.

Also, who's to say Tyrion would want to stay in a loveless political marriage? He hated it in ASOS. I doubt that would change, especially if Sansa outranked him. Given his druthers, he wouldn't want to be married to a woman with higher status than he had; when he has chosen his companions (Tysha, Shae, etc.), he's chosen women with much less power of lower birth than him. This isn't all that unusual in ASOIAF, I don't think--Illyrio fell in love with a sex slave and married her, Ellaria was "near a whore" when Prince Oberyn hooked up with her, Daemon fell head over heels for the baseborn Nettles, etc.--but it does suggest that if left to his own devices, Tyrion will gravitate away from a Cersei/Robert-type arrangement.

The other point, not so much about Tyrion and Sansa but about arranged marriages in Westeros in general, is that they come about because parents have arranged them. When it comes to the main characters, though, their parents are dead for the most part or on their way out. No one's around to twist their arm. If any of the main characters wind up marrying at the end of this, it will be because they want to do so.

I don't think we're going to get a "plus ca change"-type ending, but I also don't think we're going to get Dany's dreamed-for outcome of breaking the wheel, either.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Agreed. 

Sansa wouldn't stay married to Tyrion by choice, and if she's powerful enough to rule Westeros in this hypothetical scenario, she's powerful enough to avoid a marriage she doesn't want. (Think Elizabeth I.) The only reason Sansa would stay married to Tyrion is if he offered some sort of political value, and as not only a dwarf (considered amusing grotesques at best, twisted monsters at worst), but also a Lannister (a family whose stock is not likely to be terribly high at the end of all this) known to have murdered his father and judged in a trial by combat as having murdered the king, I'm guessing he wouldn't be all that useful to her. He's pretty much the anti-Margaery as trophy mates go.

Also, who's to say Tyrion would want to stay in a loveless marriage? He hated it in ASOS. 

I don't think we're going to get a "plus ca change"-type ending, but I also don't think we're going to get Dany's dreamed-for outcome of breaking the wheel, either.

I don't think that's true at all. Sansa may not even be that powerful if she claims the throne, it could just be that Sansa has the best claim of several weak claims. Assuming it'll be a High House that claims the throne, well a lot of the High Houses are already extinguished (Baratheon, Martell) a few more have only one issue and could easily be extinguished by series end (Arryn, Lannister, Targaryen, Tully,) two of those, even if they do survive, have members that just are not suitable for the throne (Arryn, Lannister.) That leaves the Starks and the Tyrells, so her competition is already very shallow, especially if one or both of Margaery and Loras were to die.

I guess it's slightly different in the show because they've established the Lannisters to be dead broke, but if Tyrion can rebuild the fortune, Sansa (like Robert before her) will need a bankroll to replenish the kingdoms coffers, especially after nearly a decade of war. That would be most easily accomplished by a marriage to Tyrion or (if he lives) Loras Tyrell. Either marriage will probably not be very happy. As Queen she might need to make that decision to preserve the kingdom.

Tyrion may not want to stay in a loveless marriage, but he is, above all things, practical. Marrying the Queen to preserve the kingdom is a lot different then marrying a homeless girl with only a claim to piss off a rival family. Also if Sansa, as Queen, proposes the marriage, I highly doubt he could refuse.

Anyway, I agree that we're not headed towards that type of end. Fun speculation though.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I don't think that's true at all. Sansa may not even be that powerful if she claims the throne, it could just be that Sansa has the best claim of several weak claims. Assuming it'll be a High House that claims the throne, well a lot of the High Houses are already extinguished (Baratheon, Martell) a few more have only one issue and could easily be extinguished by series end (Arryn, Lannister, Targaryen, Tully,) two of those, even if they do survive, have members that just are not suitable for the throne (Arryn, Lannister.) That leaves the Starks and the Tyrells, so her competition is already very shallow, especially if one or both of Margaery and Loras were to die.

I guess it's slightly different in the show because they've established the Lannisters to be dead broke, but if Tyrion can rebuild the fortune, Sansa (like Robert before her) will need a bankroll to replenish the kingdoms coffers, especially after nearly a decade of war. That would be most easily accomplished by a marriage to Tyrion or (if he lives) Loras Tyrell. Either marriage will probably not be very happy.

Tyrion may not want to stay in a loveless marriage, but he is, above all things, practical. Marrying the Queen to preserve the kingdom is a lot different then marrying a homeless girl with only a claim to piss off a rival family. Also if Sansa, as Queen, proposes the marriage, I highly doubt he could refuse.

Anyway, I agree that we're not headed towards that type of end. Fun speculation though.

Book talk: 

There is an interesting idea that there is really no "claim to the throne." The Baratheons only have a claim because Robert took the throne, just as the Targs only have a claim because they took the throne way back when. Ned's family had no claim to the throne in terms of blood ties to the Targs when Ned helped win the throne for Robert, but Cersei still chides Ned for failing to take the throne for himself instead of helping Robert take it. If Sansa takes the throne by conquest, she'll have as much of a right as anyone, just as Ned would have had if he'd taken the throne for himself and elbowed Robert out of the way. 

It's not so much about whether the marriage will be "happy" as whether there's any reason for it. If Sansa is queen and Tyrion has gold that she requires, she can just force Tyrion to cough up the gold without marrying him or make a mutually beneficial deal with him in exchange for the gold, the way the Lannisters have been lending gold to the crown.

Tyrion is practical...except when it comes to matters of love. He was smart enough to know that marrying Tysha was a stupid idea and that Tywin would go ballistic, but he was romantic and impulsive and did it anyway. He was smart enough to know that Shae was a prostitute and didn't really love him and that he had no right to expect loyalty or love from her, but he fell in love with her and lost his mind when she "betrayed" him anyway. He was smart enough to know that Sansa had every right to hate him, but it still made him incredibly unhappy that he didn't have the loving, close relationship with her that the Fossoways had with each other. For Tyrion, it either has to be the real deal, or he needs to be able to delude himself into thinking it is. A sham marriage won't cut it, especially with someone who has never misled Tyrion as to how she feels about him.

It would be pretty ironic if Sansa forces Tyrion to marry her, after he and his family forced her to marry him. Sansa knows how shitty sham marriages are, so I doubt she would sign up for that or force someone else to sign up for that. If she wants to punish Tyrion for whatever reason, there are easier ways to hurt him.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Book talk: 

There is an interesting idea that there is really no "claim to the throne." The Baratheons only have a claim because Robert took the throne, just as the Targs only have a claim because they took the throne way back when. Ned's family had no claim to the throne in terms of blood ties to the Targs when Ned helped win the throne for Robert, but Cersei still chides Ned for failing to take the throne for himself instead of helping Robert take it. If Sansa takes the throne by conquest, she'll have as much of a right as anyone, just as Ned would have if he'd taken the throne for himself and elbowed Robert out of the way. 

It's not so much about whether the marriage will be "happy" as whether there's any reason for it. If Sansa is queen and Tyrion has gold that she requires, she can just force Tyrion to cough up the gold without marrying him.

Tyrion is practical...except when it comes to matters of love. He was smart enough to know that marrying Tysha was a stupid idea and that Tywin would go ballistic, but he was dumb and impulsive and did it anyway. He was smart enough to know that Shae was a prostitute and didn't really love him and that he had no right to expect loyalty or love from her, but he fell in love with her and lost his mind when she "betrayed" him anyway. He was smart enough to know that Sansa had every right to hate him, but it still made him incredibly unhappy that he didn't have the loving, close relationship with her that the Fossoways had with each other. For Tyrion, it either has to be the real deal, or he needs to be able to delude himself into thinking it is. A sham marriage won't cut it.

It would be pretty ironic if Sansa forces Tyrion to marry her, after he and his family forced her to marry him. Sansa knows how shitty sham marriages are, so I doubt she would sign up for that or force someone else to sign up for that. If she wants to punish Tyrion for whatever reason, there are easier ways to hurt him.

Cersei does chide Ned for not taking the throne, but the reason that Jon and Ned and Robert decided Robert is the best candidate is largely because of his Targaryen links and blood, in addition to the fact that he is unattached after Lyanna's death. Queen Cat or Queen Lysa buys the alliance nothing in terms of gold, Queen Cersei fills their coffers.

Conquest is definitely the right by which Robert took the throne, and Sansa could do the same, but the Lannisters gold is the method by which he held the throne.

True, Sansa could just ask for the gold, but Tyrion could always say no. The reason Robert had to marry Cersei was to give the Lannisters a real stake in his rule. Otherwise they may have just kept their gold for themselves.

If Sansa chooses to go to war with Tyrion over the Rock's gold, who would win that fight? The rich man who buys all the mercenaries, or the Queen who commands her people to fight for her again after they have gone through a decade of war?

Also in regards to Tyrion's romanticism, he seems much more romantic in the books then the show. He doesn't even mention Tysha a ton, he didn't really lose his mind when Shae betrayed him, he seems to almost kill her out of self defense, rather then straight up murder her. He becomes more cruel, hard, jaded and vengeful in the books, but doesn't in the show. Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion aren't really the same character at all. I could see either agreeing to a loveless marriage, Show Tyrion, because he wasn't all that romantic to begin with, and Book Tyrion, because he is hard and jaded now.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

Though at least in respect of the show, the writers just had a bunch of female bastards exterminate the line of Dorne's thousand-year-old ruling dynasty and take over the whole country without any trouble at all, so they aren't overly concerned with all GRRM's stuff about the importance of bloodlines to regions' cultural history and politics.

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Cersei does chide Ned for not taking the throne, but the reason that Jon and Ned and Robert decided Robert is the best candidate is largely because of his Targaryen links and blood, in addition to the fact that he is unattached after Lyanna's death. Queen Cat or Queen Lysa buys the alliance nothing in terms of gold, Queen Cersei fills their coffers.

Conquest is definitely the right by which Robert took the throne, and Sansa could do the same, but the Lannisters gold is the method by which he held the throne.

True, Sansa could just ask for the gold, but Tyrion could always say no. The reason Robert had to marry Cersei was to give the Lannisters a real stake in his rule. Otherwise they may have just kept their gold for themselves.

If Sansa chooses to go to war with Tyrion over the Rock's gold, who would win that fight? The rich man who buys all the mercenaries, or the Queen who commands her people to fight for her again after they have gone through a decade of war?

Also in regards to Tyrion's romanticism, he seems much more romantic in the books then the show. He doesn't even mention Tysha a ton, he didn't really lose his mind when Shae betrayed him, he seems to almost kill her out of self defense, rather then straight up murder her. He becomes more cruel, hard, jaded and vengeful in the books, but doesn't in the show. Book Tyrion and Show Tyrion aren't really the same character at all. I could see either agreeing to a loveless marriage, Show Tyrion, because he wasn't all that romantic to begin with, and Book Tyrion, because he is hard and jaded now.

I agree that Tyrion could refuse, but if she's powerful enough to force someone to marry her, she's ostensibly powerful enough to force him to cough up the gold without marrying him. She could also strike a deal that doesn't involve marriage.

In my opinion, TV Tyrion is a great romantic, but he seems a lot more phlegmatic in general than Book Tyrion. Book Tyrion, even in the earlier books, had a lot of rage and spite; it exploded in ASOS, but it was always there. TV Tyrion seems not only less feisty and less angry, but also less likely to project that anger outward. Book Tyrion broods on revenge plans in ADWD while TV Tyrion is content to feel sorry for himself and drink himself to death. TV Tyrion's rant at the trial almost seemed out of character, but for Book Tyrion it was exactly right.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

Show Tyrion would likely have a dragon by that point, so I doubt she's forcing shit.

In my outrageous scenario where he's waffling on who to support, he's obviously not married to Sansa since that would make it obvious who's side he's on.

[Maximum Taco]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I agree that Tyrion could refuse, but if she's powerful enough to force someone to marry her, she's ostensibly powerful enough to force him to cough up the gold without marrying him. She could also strike a deal that doesn't involve marriage.

The problem with Sansa's power after claiming the throne is that military might will fade. Directly after capturing the throne, with her armies still assembled she can pretty much tell anyone to do what she wants. That won't be true once Tyrion has established his rule at Casterly Rock with his own standing army. She could (and likely would) demand gold from everyone she conquers, but that won't be enough to establish a working economy. It's the same problem Dany runs into in Slaver's Bay, she devastates the economy and has no resources to rebuild it. 

She could strike a deal that doesn't involve marriage, but the problem with those kinds of deals is they are easily broken. Marriage is forever (once consummated).

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The problem with Sansa's power after claiming the throne is that military might will fade. Directly after capturing the throne, with her armies still assembled she can pretty much tell anyone to do what she wants. That won't be true once Tyrion has established his rule at Casterly Rock with his own standing army. She could (and likely would) demand gold from everyone she conquers, but that won't be enough to establish a working economy. It's the same problem Dany runs into in Slaver's Bay, she devastates the economy and has no resources to rebuild it. 

She could strike a deal that doesn't involve marriage, but the problem with those kinds of deals is they are easily broken. Marriage is forever (once consummated).

Again, I'm not seeing how Sansa would propose to force Tyrion to marry her if he's got a standing army of his own, or convince him to marry her when the marriage would bring no advantages that they couldn't otherwise obtain by negotiating. Also, if Tyrion is so powerful in this scenario that she can't extract gold from him without marrying him and has set up shop with his own robust standing army, and Sansa is so weak that she desperately needs his gold, I'd wonder why he wouldn't just take the throne for himself.

I also agree with Oscirus that if (when?) Tyrion gets a dragon, Sansa, who won't be riding a dragon in any event, won't be ordering him to do shit. Tyrion will be too busy turning Casterly Rock into his whorehouse, as Tywin once put it, to care about Sansa's predicament.

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Show Tyrion would likely have a dragon by that point, so I doubt she's forcing shit.

In my outrageous scenario where he's waffling on who to support, he's obviously not married to Sansa since that would make it obvious who's side he's on.

Ultimately, I imagine Jon and Dany are going to team up against the WW. It's only a question of whether there's a big rivalry between them, and, if so, just how bad that rivalry gets, before they team up. Right now, it looks like Jon and Sansa will be aligned (unless LF succeeds in driving a wedge between them) and Dany and Tyrion will be aligned, so we'll see. It will be interesting if Sansa and Tyrion counsel Jon and Dany respectively to mistrust the other. Tyrion in the books already threw one of Dany's biggest potential allies and supporters under the bus for his own purposes (Aegon), so he might talk shit about Jon to rile Dany up for his own reasons. We'll see.

[Maximum Taco]

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I also agree with Oscirus that if (when?) Tyrion gets a dragon, Sansa, who won't be riding a dragon in any event, won't be ordering him to do shit. Tyrion will be too busy turning Casterly Rock into his whorehouse, as Tywin once put it, to care about Sansa's predicament.

In regards to dragons, I'm assuming (and I think very fairly) that in any scenario where Sansa defeats Dany to claim the throne, all the dragons are dead.

If Tyrion is off dragonriding, Dany is sitting on the Iron Throne IMO.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Alapaki]

Quote

 

I can see most of season seven being about Dany dealing with what little opposition she truly has while Jon figures out how to deal with the Others. Then in season eight they meet in the middle for him to convince her that the Army he has formed isn't to fight her but to fight the dead. Then the last few episodes will probably actually be everyone on the same side fighting the Others with anyone who hasn't died already being up for grabs to kill. I don't even have a prediction as to rather or not Jon or Dany survive that last fight.

The last episode will probably wrap up the stories of whoever lives, but I really think the "winner" of the Game of Thrones is just going to be whoever is "lucky" enough to live at the end.

 

I think the books have really been setting up Jon to be installed as King in the North, with no particular aspirations for the Iron Throne.  In that sense, rather than Dany being worried about Jon coming for her crown, she may be planning on heading north to take his.  

They realize they have to join forces to defeat the Others, and do so.  But they die in the effort.

Hodor whips out a harp and starts playing "All Along The Watchtower".

[Umbelina]

In many ways Dany would be the best choice to sit on the Iron Throne, if it even exists after Winter is finally over.  She's actually aware and cares about her "subjects" and has shown that more than anyone else from "Nobility" currently in the running for the throne.  She's already made her mistakes, and many of them, while ruling, and seems to be the type to learn from those early errors.  She's always had the confidence and determination that make a leader strong, but it's now been tempered with levels of caution and negotiation.  Her power, with the dragons facing White Walkers which is very likely, is undeniable.  Her compassion for "slaves" is admirable, because whether or not they wear chains, most of the citizens of Westeros aren't any better off than slaves.

So, it can't be her.  Too easy for GRRM.

Tyrion is another good choice.  His go-to is diplomacy, not war, but we've seen him logically and effectively engage in war when forced to.  He, because of his physical challenges, and because of his fondness for whores after his disastrous first love, shows a type of equality for many of the small folk, he hangs with sell-swords, and often has more respect for average people than the Royals he detests.  He gets along with dragons, but more importantly, he understands the politics of situations and manages to negotiate his way through them, no matter the situation.  If he were tall and handsome he would be more easily accepted though, and perhaps his best roll is as second, the Hand of the King/Queen.  If he is a chimera half-Targ, half-Lannister?  Hmmm

Jon has no experience whatsoever in leading a country the size of Westeros.  He tried to lead a few dozen men and couldn't even do that without getting himself murdered.

Sansa is the best trained, thanks to her experiences in the capitol, but more importantly, 3 men.  Her dad's basic decency, Tyrion's cleverness and ability to face reality, and Littlefinger's skill in seeing the world as it is and using what he sees to get what he wants.  Her time with Ramsay has shown her that just because someone is in a position of leadership, that doesn't mean you have to respect that, so wiping them out via war or trial is fine.  So, a certain ruthlessness or "Dany" quality is there as well.  Could she be a decent Queen?  Yes. 

Littlefinger is probably the smartest of the bunch, but he lacks compassion for the masses, or for anyone really.  He's completely a goal oriented type of leader, which is great for getting things done, and for seeing the truth/reality of situations and the best ways to exploit those.  Could he ever be out for anyone but himself though?  Is there any way to channel those skills, which in many ways, are quite like Tyrions with added ruthlessness, in a way that would be useful to Westeros?  Certainly.  His guiding desire seems to be respect and enough power to never be crapped on again, so if he had that security?  Could his incredible skills be used for good?  Not as someone to sit on the throne, but to be a formidable ally to the throne.

More and more though, the only thing I actually care about are the "small folk" simply trying to stay alive in spite of their rulers, and winter.  I'd like a leader that would give a damn about them, improve their lives somewhat, while being strong enough to avoid an invasion from one of the other lands.  That keeps coming back to Dany.

Sorry, thinking out loud here...

[Conan Troutman]

4 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Nah the Others is just too huge for this to come down to a fight between men/women for the Iron Throne. If there is ONE ruler at the end of this story - I think they will half achieve it by survival alone. I would put ZERO predictions on Jon or Dany surviving the battle that saves the realm.

They're not huge. They're pushovers. They have a huge giant weakness - dragon glass. And Valyrian steel. And probably dragon fire, too. The wights are toast should the dragons come near them. Or wildfire. Or regular fire. This can't be the endgame, it would be far too easy. 

 

Re: The Iron Throne: There won't be an Iron Throne when all is said and done. One of the biggest recurring themes in the story that's repeated over and over and over again (my friend, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction?) since the very beginning is that whoever's ass it is that graces the IT is goddamn fucking irrelevant. Why do people think someone will be sitting on that ridiculous thing at the end, rendering one of the most important, overarching themes of the series completely and utterly pointless?

[Umbelina]

Well, because countries and people always, one way or another, have leaders. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

They're not huge. They're pushovers. They have a huge giant weakness - dragon glass. And Valyrian steel. And probably dragon fire, too. The wights are toast should the dragons come near them. Or wildfire. Or regular fire. This can't be the endgame, it would be far too easy. 

But aren't both Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel both in short supply in Westeros?  And I do think they're huge, in numbers at least.  And the thing is that the more people they defeat, the bigger they get.  

If anything, I'd say the fact that Dragons pretty much trump everything and everyone else weighs in favor that they are too obvious to be the endgame.