S05.E07: The Gift

[Drogo]

Thanks, Drogo. Heh. How's the afterlife? ;)

 

Not so bad. Lots of racquetball.

 

 

She should have voiced concern about the future of their family and title and suggested Ramsay ought to come up with a plan re: Walda's baby "just in case". Sure, that's terrible, but odds are Ramsay will come to the same conclusion himself eventually, might as well use it to your advantage to win him over so you can possibly manipulate him.

 

 

A child of the honorable Ned Stark could never be dishonorable.  Yawn.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Drogo

[Pete Martell]

I can't categorize her as a hostage. Dorne didn't snatch her; her family sent her there ahead of her arranged marriage to keep her protected from the shitstorm that was happening in King's Landing. Jaime went in to sneak her out, on Cersei's orders, without consideration for the fallout of breaking that alliance. Instead of simply openly traveling to Dorne and being all 'after the Oberon business, we wanted to make sure no retributive harm would come to Mycella', they were going to just grab her and run, which is such a stupid plan on so many levels. Of course Cersei came up with it. ;)

 

Can someone remind me what happened to Gendry? I remember Melisandra screwing him and then I think there was something about leeches? Where is he now?

 

I tend to wonder how stupid the plan was in this case, given that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes all wanted her dead and Jaime helped save her life. 

 

Gendry was sent away via rowboat by Davos, before Melisandre and Stannis could kill him.

Hmm I thought it more made clear that Ramsay is the evildoer since he had the woman flayed, and Theon is a victim even more helpless than she is, rather than a potential savior.

 

Even if that was the show's intent, the fan reaction generally puts Theon as somehow just having "no balls" (get it? get it? isn't it hilarious?) and Sansa needing to "flay" him in order to make him pay. 

 

I think the show's confusion on just how much to show of Theon-as-Reek or Theon-as-Theon means a lot of fans don't know, or don't care about knowing, that he isn't just getting kicks out of betraying the sainted Starks. Then again, I'm still seeing people insist Sansa is his "sister" and that he has betrayed "his sister," and the show has never given any impression she was that to him, so sometimes people are just stupid.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

That was a pretty pathetic turn-out for the fighting pits considering those people were so pissed Dany closed them. I kept wondering if it was like fighting pit dress rehearsal.

 

I think it actually WAS a sort of dress rehearsal. Something was said about whoever won this, would fight before the Queen at some bigger show. That's why they were so surprised when the Queen showed up. (I think Hizdar said something about it being a tradition for her to wish them luck or something?)

[DarkRaichu]

WTF was that boobs scene? Must have been one of the most gratuitous of the show, or what. Still, she had rather nice breasts which made the scene fun, cannot deny, but that scene is so much more pointless for those who can't appreciate, which is most women, who routinely get deprioritised by creators. Exhibit one, male gaze.

I've heard the Sand Snakes are pretty awesome in the books, but they seem pretty stripped of menace on the show, more like rebellious teenage girls who think they can play with the big boys.

 

She said her knives were coated with special slow activating poison.  So she sped up Bronn's heart rate (via her "show") to speed up the effect of the poison.

 

My question is, why put poison at all if it takes hours to activate ?  The slower the affect the smaller advantage she gains in a fight.  Wouldn't you want something that quickly kills and/or paralyzes your opponents ?

Edited May 26, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

That's her book nickname. The one her entire family (the Freys) always given her... and within the fan community, it is given to her with a lot of sympathy. She's one of the most beloved minor characters.

 

I assume that was her nickname because there were probably multiple Waldas in the family.

[RadiantAerynSun]

When Stannis was discussing supplies with Davos I was waiting for him to go into "well, first we'll eat the horses. That's ok. Next, the cats. OK, never liked cats..."

[izabella]

She said her knives were coated with special slow activating poison.  So she sped up Bronn's heart rate (via her "show") to speed up the effect of the poison.

 

My question is, why put poison at all if it takes hours to activate ?  The slower the affect the smaller advantage she gains in a fight.  Wouldn't you want something that quickly kills and/or paralyzes your opponents ?

 

Because then they wouldn't "need" a gratuitous boob scene.

[DarkRaichu]

Because then they wouldn't "need" a gratuitous boob scene.

Lol I meant in general sense, as in if these Sand Snakes were such experienced fighters, why put slow poison on knives ?  

[izabella]

Lol I meant in general sense, as in if these Sand Snakes were such experienced fighters, why put slow poison on knives ?  

 

I understand, and share your confusion because you are absolutely right.  They would be using fast-acting poison if they wanted to kill someone.  However, that just leads me to thinking the only real answer to that is that the showrunners wanted to show boobs.  They clearly didn't want to kill Bronn, so if it weren't for Boobs!, there was no reason to have Bronn be wounded and in the jail cell near the Sand Snakes and Boobs!  There was no other point to that scene, was there?

[Dobian]

I guess the moment of truth is coming for Sansa.  She can either take Ramsay down or be Reek's cell mate for the rest of her days.  Sam rocks and got a much-deserved reward.  Tyrion beating up the slave handler while chained was a hoot.  The thing I like about this season more than any of the others is that the various plot threads actually feel like they are coming together.  They paced Jorah's delivering Tyrion to Dany pretty quickly by this show's clock.  Last year it probably would have taken him the whole season to get her the package.  So cheers to tighter storytelling, at least by Game of Thrones standards.

[dramachick]

If the King were still, say, Joffrey, would he be able to nix the religious group?

 

I'm interested to see what the sceptre dude's endgame is. He's put himself in a delightful position. All he needs now is to "prove" that Tommen is a Lannister instead of  Baratheon, and the whole monarchy is gone, presumably leaving him in control. Once that's happened, will his vows of poverty and humility be shown to be false?

 

I think that dude wants the iron throne.  Now that he's got his own army -- thanks to Cersei -- he's no different from any other contender.

Edited May 26, 2015 by dramachick

[Constantinople]

She said her knives were coated with special slow activating poison.  So she sped up Bronn's heart rate (via her "show") to speed up the effect of the poison.

 

My question is, why put poison at all if it takes hours to activate ?  The slower the affect the smaller advantage she gains in a fight.  Wouldn't you want something that quickly kills and/or paralyzes your opponents ?

 

 

Because then they wouldn't "need" a gratuitous boob scene.

 

The episode title is The Gift and gifts are, by definition, gratuitous.

[DarkRaichu]

I think that dude wants the iron throne.  Now that he's got his own army -- thanks to Cersei -- he's no different than any other contender.

 

Say he has the throne, how is he going to defend King's Landing with his army of zealots ?  What is he going to do when any one of the big houses decide they want to take KL from him ?  And when the ice zombies commeth.. ? :D

 

I think the current King's Landing happenings are rather pointless to the grand schema of things, one of the reasons I missed Tywin Lannister.  You know he was a big picture guy. Plus, he was the only one with more game than Little Finger.  I am loosing interest in the current small potato back and forward. :(

[madam magpie]

She did have a great parting line to one of her jailers: "Look at my face. This will be the last thing you see before you die!"

I hate Cersei, but boy did I love that. She'll do it too, I bet.

[JTMacc99]

She said her knives were coated with special slow activating poison.  So she sped up Bronn's heart rate (via her "show") to speed up the effect of the poison.

 

My question is, why put poison at all if it takes hours to activate ?  The slower the affect the smaller advantage she gains in a fight.  Wouldn't you want something that quickly kills and/or paralyzes your opponents ?

Couple of non-boobs reasons I can think of:

 

1. Spinning around furiously with a sharp blade coated in poison would tend to put you in extreme danger of instantaneously killing yourself or one of your buddies by accident.
2. Dying a painful death, in front of other people back home, adds a nice touch of threat and fear to go with the Sand Snakes. The more people who are terrified of you, the fewer people you have to fight.

[JTMacc99]

That wasn't The Fighting Pits, it was a lower tier one, a farm team if you will. It was explained that it was tradition for the rulers to visit the lower pits before the big fight in order to honor all the fighters.

Yeah. You have to make your way up through the ranks, taking out the Glass Joe's and Bald Bull's before you start to get your chance in front of the big crowds. Obviously Jorah wasn't likely to run into anybody particularly tough at this point.  It does seem unlikely that the royalty would stop in THAT far down the chain, but whatever. It served to finally get her together with somebody important form the rest of the story, so I won't put much more thought into it.

[DarkRaichu]

 

Couple of non-boobs reasons I can think of:

 

1. Spinning around furiously with a sharp blade coated in poison would tend to put you in extreme danger of instantaneously killing yourself or one of your buddies by accident.
2. Dying a painful death, in front of other people back home, adds a nice touch of threat and fear to go with the Sand Snakes. The more people who are terrified of you, the fewer people you have to fight.

 

1. That was a reason to keep antidote handy, not necessarily why they would want slow acting poison.  Oberyn put poison on his spear too, it was not slow acting

 

2. The snakes would need to be defeated or their opponents would need to escape for that to happen.  Either scenario did not bode well for the Snakes' reputation :D

[terrymct]

It's somewhat telling that the White Walkers are actually among the most rootable characters in the series. I mean, other than walking dead attacking people north of the Wall (arguably their territory) about the worst we've ever seen a White Walker proper do is take a child that would otherwise be left to die and turn it into one of their own (basically adopting it into their family). Compared to the Boltons, Walder Frey, the majority of the Nights Watch and High Priestess Burn Everyone to Death they're practically saints too good for this wretched world.

 

There's a part of me that literally expects some sort of last season switcheroo where we learn that the Walkers are actually the good guys and the Wall was built by Bran Stark to keep them safe from all the wicked people south of the wall (which is why its an ICE wall and not some wall of fire that would actually hurt the Walkers in some way) and the Wardens of the North were supposed to be keeping those depraved southerners OUT rather than siding with them to keep those north of the Wall in.

 

 

The White Walkers only show up near the end of a season to add a little drama to the last episode cliff hanger.  I would love it if your idea turned out to be correct, especially if the first thing they did was kill Melisandra.

[Andromeda]

It says a lot about my feelings about religious zealots that I'm actually rooting for Cersei here.

Yeah, they're pretty heinous. I'm not rooting for Cersei, but it's a nice cautionary tale about giving religious zealots political power. Though I too hate zealots, I actually kinda liked the High Sparrow earlier in the season. He seems really genuine in his beliefs, and a religious leader who is actually living his talk about humility being important. But now that he is actively using his power, I am cringing. He spouts interesting talk about the "many" (commoners) being stronger than the "few" (nobles), but you know said commoners will end up suffering just as much under the power of the church -- after he uses the "many" to punish the "few," of course, by getting them up in arms and ready to riot. Gawd, Cersei is so stupid not to have seen this coming.

 

On the show moving very slow:

 

I will posit that the first time (I am aware of, since I don't read the damn books) the writers went "off-book" was in the Blackwater episode. Some character said something about some military thing being 200 ft when in the book it was 400 ft and the book readers collectively lost their minds!! They are obsessed with every detail exactly matching Martin's books and raise hell when they don't. In addition, I went and looked at Wikipedia (and thank you Wikipedia for designing the page with no spoilers. Yay!) for the book publication dates and they started in 1996 with an average of 3-4 years between them, taking a total of 15 years to get the first 5 written. Wikipedia says there are two more books to go (as of now) so I think the showrunners are simultaneously trying to keep an HBO series going, kick a writer in the ass to write faster, and realizing that if they want to do the rest of this, they are going to have to make up the ending and do it. But, I also think the author isn't going to give up control of the end of this story and we may quickly be at that point where the characters completely diverge from the books and turn into fanfic. HBO has done it before (looking at you, True Blood) so it wouldn't surprise me. What I do know if that if we are going off-book, it's time to go off-book and quit with some of this stuff and move this story along. Commit to telling the HBO version of GoT and quit worrying about the George Martin version of GoT.

The showrunners are working closely with GRR Martin on the scripts. Martin is an executive producer, and D&D are basing the show on his outlines for the last two books. Here's a short article about that, with links to more articles. Martin has written episodes in each season, but won't in season 6, because he's working on the novel. I've read all of the books, but I'm not a superfan (I couldn't care less about some of the stuff removed by D&D -- in fact, I feel the streamlining makes the show better than the books), which is why I hang out here instead of the book talk thread.

Edited May 26, 2015 by SilverStormm
Removed book reference.

[dramachick]

Say he has the throne, how is he going to defend King's Landing with his army of zealots ?  What is he going to do when any one of the big houses decide they want to take KL from him ?  And when the ice zombies commeth.. ? :D

 

I think the current King's Landing happenings are rather pointless to the grand schema of things, one of the reasons I missed Tywin Lannister.  You know he was a big picture guy. Plus, he was the only one with more game than Little Finger.  I am loosing interest in the current small potato back and forward. :(

 

The Big Sparrow is the charismatic leader of an armed cult of the 99% + crazy others. He would cut deals and make alliances or commit acts of treachery like any other king. 

[Dobian]

I'm really enjoying smug Cersei's comeuppance.  Serves her right for empowering a bunch of fanatics just so she could keep her hold over Tommen and keep him away from that hussy Margaery.  I'm sure she will weasel her way out of this situation, but it's good to see her humbled for a change.

[DarkRaichu]

The Big Sparrow is the charismatic leader of an armed cult of the 99% + crazy others. He would cut deals and make alliances or commit acts of treachery like any other king. 

He was not willing to cut deals with Lady Olenna at the risk of starvation.

 

Having said that, I was wondering if Lancel Lannister told him about what Cersei did before she used his cult for her agenda.  If High Sparrow knew beforehand that meant he was a hypocrite and should be capable to do what you said.

[JTMacc99]

1. That was a reason to keep antidote handy, not necessarily why they would want slow acting poison.  Oberyn put poison on his spear too, it was not slow acting

 

2. The snakes would need to be defeated or their opponents would need to escape for that to happen.  Either scenario did not bode well for the Snakes' reputation :D

Good point on #2. Heh.

 

My thought on the first one was that there wouldn't be a whole lot of opportunity in a crazy sword / whip / spear fight to call time-out so that you could administer an antidote.  If you nicked yourself, and I've seen enough videos of people doing martial arts moves to know that occasionally you smack yourself in the face or groin regardless of how good at it you are, you would probably prefer to have the slow acting poison.

 

And Oberyn is a bad example. Of course he wouldn't take into account the possibility that things might go wrong for him in combat. That's how he got his head exploded.

Edited May 26, 2015 by JTMacc99

[izabella]

I don't understand why Roose allows Ramsay to run amuck in his sadistic endeavors.  It's not possible that Roose doesn't realize that Sansa is being held as a sex hostage.  She's never seen for her meals.  Roose obviously treats his own wife decently.  She seems happy enough, and she doesn't seem to be held hostage and raped nightly.  He must also realize how bad it looks to flay little old ladies.  Roose is a traitor from a family familiar with brutality, but he's ambitious.  He also seems to have self-control.  Why doesn't he rein in Ramsay?

 

That really bothers me, too.  Roose is supposed to know they "can't hold the North without a Stark," so why would he be totally fine with Ramsey treating a Stark like an abused sex slave?   Is "the North" never going to find out that they are mistreating Sansa?

 

What about all those people in the North who "Remember"?  Where the hell are they?  The woman Ramsey flayed surely would have been aware that Sansa was being kept prisoner, so why didn't she send out secret messages to the Houses of the North to inform them it was time to put their money where their memories are?

 

And I have a bone to pick with Stannis, too.  Why is he roughing it all alone?  Why isn't he reaching out to the Houses of the North, like the Umbers where Rickon is hiding, for assistance against the Boltons?  For that matter, why aren't the Houses reaching out to Stannis?   They all know the Boltons and Freys and Lannisters were responsible for the murder of many Starks, including King of the North Robb and his future heir, and that Stannis was opposing them; why wouldn't the Houses of the North (who Remember things) try to get the traitorous Boltons who killed the Stark heir out of Winterfell?  If Roose knows Stannis is on his way to kick the Boltons out of Winterfell, wouldn't the Northern Houses also have working ravens to tell them things they ought to know and remember?

 

Is the North just going to sit this one out while Stannis and his army die on the way to Winterfell?

Edited May 26, 2015 by izabella

[NoWillToResist]

My question is, why put poison at all if it takes hours to activate ?  The slower the affect the smaller advantage she gains in a fight.  Wouldn't you want something that quickly kills and/or paralyzes your opponents ?

 

Plausible deniability for assassinations and other 'under the radar' kills? "I couldn't have been the one who killed him! I was 2000 miles away when he died!" :)

 

 

I was *waiting* for the Sparrows to remember Lancel's confessions.  He'd 'unburdened' himself when he'd joined, thus freeing him (paraphrasing big time).  I am wondering if the High Sparrow knew this all along and just used Cersi's visit to maneuver his way into authority and the castle.

 

I don't understand the timing of this. If Lancel spilled all the beans when he converted, then sure, Head Sparrow would sit on it until it became useful to him. But then what 'gift of a young man' to Oleanna was Littlefinger talking about? Because if Littlefinger convinced Lancel to confess NOW, why isn't he in trouble for not fully confessing all his sins before his induction to the cult, ahem, religious sect? Or am I just assuming wrongly that he was talking about Lancel? I'd also like to know which dirt he spilled about Cersei. Because killing your husband is bad enough but regicide should be a pretty fucking big deal and punished way more strongly than some dude boning another dude, IMO.

 

 

I tend to wonder how stupid the plan was in this case, given that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes all wanted her dead and Jaime helped save her life.

 

I get that Mycella was in danger but IMO the method of "rescue" was stupid, as evidenced by the fact that Bronn and Jaime are prisoners. Is there any particular reason why Jaime couldn't have just gone to Dorne under the guise of visiting his niece and then speaking to the Dornish king/prince/whatever to express his concerns? He could have brought out the snake thing which communicated the threat as evidence for their concerns. I just can't recall if there was a reason for all this skullduggery...

Edited May 26, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[DarkRaichu]

Good point on #2. Heh.

 

My thought on the first one was that there wouldn't be a whole lot of opportunity in a crazy sword / whip / spear fight to call time-out so that you could administer an antidote.  If you nicked yourself, and I've seen enough videos of people doing martial arts moves to know that occasionally you smack yourself in the face or groin regardless of how good at it you are, you would probably prefer to have the slow acting poison.

 

And Oberyn is a bad example. Of course he wouldn't take into account the possibility that things might go wrong for him in combat. That's how he got his head exploded.

Poison users should have some immunity to their own / teammates' poisons, at least enough to delay effect and have time to take antidotes.  Otherwise that was the risk you take for using poison or fight with someone using poisons.

 

Also, Sand's poison took at least an hour PLUS her little show to take affect.  That was just way to slow to affect the fight at hand :)  

[DarkRaichu]

Plausible deniability for assassinations and other 'under the radar' kills? "I couldn't have been the one who killed him! I was 2000 miles away when he died!" :)

 

 

I don't understand the timing of this. If Lancel spilled all the beans when he converted, then sure, Head Sparrow would sit on it until it became useful to him. But then what 'gift of a young man' to Oleanna was Littlefinger talking about? Because if Littlefinger convinced Lancel to confess NOW, why isn't he in trouble for not fully confessing all his sins before his induction to the cult, ahem, religious sect? Or am I just assuming wrongly that he was talking about Lancel? I'd also like to know which dirt he spilled about Cersei. Because killing your husband is bad enough but regicide should be a pretty fucking big deal and punished way more strongly than some dude boning another dude, IMO.

 

 

I get that Mycella was in danger but IMO the method of "rescue" was stupid, as evidenced by the fact that Bronn and Jaime are prisoners. Is there any particular reason why Jaime couldn't have just gone to Dorne under the guise of visiting his niece and then speaking to the Dornish king/prince/whatever to express his concerns? He could have brought out the snake thing which communicated the threat as evidence for their concerns. I just can't recall if there was a reason for all this skullduggery...

 

Ok, I could see assassination.  However, the Sand Snakes original mission was to kidnap the Lannister girl so shouldn't she be ready for a fight ?  ;)

 

I was wondering the same on Lancel.

 

The only reason I could think of was Cersei FREAKING OUT in episode 2

[MrWhyt]

And I have a bone to pick with Stannis, too.  Why is he roughing it all alone?  Why isn't he reaching out to the Houses of the North, like the Umbers where Rickon is hiding, for assistance against the Boltons?  For that matter, why aren't the Houses reaching out to Stannis?   They all know the Boltons and Freys and Lannisters were responsible for the murder of many Starks, including King of the North Robb and his future heir, and that Stannis was opposing them; why wouldn't the Houses of the North (who Remember things) try to get the traitorous Boltons who killed the Stark heir out of Winterfell? 

The great houses of The North supported Robb Stark the usurper, Stannis is the one true king. He wouldn't seek out the help of traitors, though he might accept it from them if they agreed to bend the knee.

[RedheadZombie]

That really bothers me, too.  Roose is supposed to know they "can't hold the North without a Stark," so why would he be totally fine with Ramsey treating a Stark like an abused sex slave?   Is "the North" never going to find out that they are mistreating Sansa?

 

Yep.  Sansa is simply too valuable, and Ramsay's very openly mistreating her.  Roose is a vicious asshole, but he's currently treating his own wife with a certain degree of dignity.  Since he's a rape fiend himself, he's honoring his wife for appearance's sake.  Again - why doesn't he rein his son in?

 

WTF was that boobs scene? Must have been one of the most gratuitous of the show, or what. Still, she had rather nice breasts which made the scene fun, cannot deny, but that scene is so much more pointless for those who can't appreciate, which is most women, who routinely get deprioritised by creators. Exhibit one, male gaze.

 

Have we gotten male nudity this season other than old man flabby butt?  The sand snake made me uncomfortable because she looked so young.  I do appreciate that EC has drawn the line, and decided to stop being the designated T&A on the show.  In her bed scene this week, Daario's arm strategically blocked her boobs.

 

I guess it could be worse.  On Outlander, the hero covers his junk, yet we got full frontal from the villain trying to stimulate himself enough to commit rape.  No one wants that.

 

I just noticed these posts referring to Walda as "fat Walda." Has this always been a thing? Because it is not okay. I have not seen anyone referring to Sam as "fat Sam." People cannot complain about misogyny on the show and then in turn practice or tolerate it here. There is no difference between Ramsay mocking Walda's weight and referring to the character by her weight on this forum.

 

It's book knowledge bleeding into the No Book Talk thread.  It happened once in a while in TWD threads as well.

[rubinia]

 

I've taken to calling this show "Game of Rapes." Like, we get it already.

My roomie and I have been calling it "Game of Bones" and "Game of Moans" since the first season.

 

 

I was also confused by something Cersei had.  As she was walking away from visiting Margaery, she was smirking and seemed to toss something to the ground.

She was holding the velvet cloth that had been covering the bowl of stew that she'd brought for Margaery.

 

Re: male nudity, we got to see Ramsay's butt before he banged the kennelmaster's daughter.

Edited May 26, 2015 by rubinia

[Bass90]

And I have a bone to pick with Stannis, too.  Why is he roughing it all alone?  Why isn't he reaching out to the Houses of the North, like the Umbers where Rickon is hiding, for assistance against the Boltons?  For that matter, why aren't the Houses reaching out to Stannis?   They all know the Boltons and Freys and Lannisters were responsible for the murder of many Starks, including King of the North Robb and his future heir, and that Stannis was opposing them; why wouldn't the Houses of the North (who Remember things) try to get the traitorous Boltons who killed the Stark heir out of Winterfell?  If Roose knows Stannis is on his way to kick the Boltons out of Winterfell, wouldn't the Northern Houses also have working ravens to tell them things they ought to know and remember?

 

Stannis in episode 2 mentions he asked for house Mormont's help but they replied that they would only follow a Stark ("bear island knows no king but the king in the north, whose name is stark"). I imagine Stannis asked for other northern houses help with the same result. That being the reason he wanted to legitimize Jon. It's odd that Jon never told him about Bran being alive.

if Rickon is with the Umbers, they could use that against the Boltons...

 

Hi to all and sorry for any grammar mistakes, english is not my first language... hopefully Stannis is not watching

Edited May 26, 2015 by Bass90

[izabella]

Ah, you're right, Bass90, Stannis did ask for help from the Northern Houses and was told to kick rocks.

 

Ok, then I will nurse my grudge against the Northern Houses who aren't lifting a finger to go after the Boltons and Freys who murdered the Starks. 
 

[RedheadZombie]

I thought the lack of chemistry was deliberate. This is his daughter, but she treats him like just some distant uncle she hasn't seen in years (which is closer to the truth). He has no relationship with her, really.

 

True chemistry cannot be controlled, but I agree that they deliberately acted the scene awkwardly.  I think Jaime probably always distanced himself from the children - not only to avoid suspicion, but possibly because it was too painful not to acknowledge them, and be a true father.  Tyrion had a warm relationship with Myrcella and Tommen, so I think Jaime was deliberately detached.

 

I know right... Sansa is playing this all wrong, so disappointed. She has been doing more of a Cersei (being snarky) rather than a Margaery (go along to get along). She should have voiced concern about the future of their family and title and suggested Ramsay ought to come up with a plan re: Walda's baby "just in case". Sure, that's terrible, but odds are Ramsay will come to the same conclusion himself eventually, might as well use it to your advantage to win him over so you can possibly manipulate him.  She also might try to trick Theon into betraying Ramsay and then turn him in herself... but no, same old same old from Sansa. Come on girl!

 

I don't think it's the "same old" Sansa.  That girl quickly learned how to stay alive alone in KL.  She maintained her - Joffrey is my one true love - and obediently married when she was told.  I think Sansa was emboldened by her ability to manipulate the consequences of LF's murder of Lysa, and his belief that she could manipulate Ramsay.  She seemingly isn't able to be passively meek anymore.  She should be rubbing her belly, speculating on a pregnancy, and manipulating a maester to tell Ramsay he needs to be more gentle, for the "baby's" sake.  That's what I imagine Margaery would have done.

 

And as horrific as his brutality is, at least it allows Sansa to keep clear he's a monster.  She was once an extremely idealistic romantic.  All Ramsay needed to do was treat her kindly, and please her in bed, and she might have fallen in love with him.  That would have been even greater a mind fuck.

 

 

To be fair, Gilly was doing all the "work" and it looked like the least active intercourse ever. Seriously, I think she basically sat on his crotch.

Also, never underestimate a man's willingness to have sex...particularly if it's his first - and potentially only - time. Strike while the iron is hot and all that...  ;)

 

I try very hard not to dwell on Craster's sexual relationship with his daughters.  After this episode, it became clear to me that he not only rapes them, he makes them do all the work.

 

Try watching "Outlander" sometime. It will give you an appreciation of the restraint this show has by comparison. No, I'm not kidding.

 

So true, and Outlander is a straight up romance!  Outlander spoilers: 

Claire was brutally beaten four or five times, almost raped as many times, almost burnt at the stake, and had a knife held to her nipple. If that's not bad enough, the hero IS raped by the villain. All of this in the first season!

[annsterg]

 

Ok, then I will nurse my grudge against the Northern Houses who aren't lifting a finger to go after the Boltons and Freys who murdered the Starks. 

 

 

Do we even know how many of the Northern lords survived the Red Wedding? A ton of Robb's bannermen and their men died that day. Could be a lot of the Stark's bannermen are now barely hanging on, much less be able to send men to help Stannis, even if they wanted to.

 

We know at least SOME Karstarks survived, since they all decamped when Robb executed their lord....

Edited May 26, 2015 by annsterg

[Bass90]

Do we even know how many of the Northern lords survived the Red Wedding? A ton of Robb's bannermen and their men died that day. Could be a lot of the Stark's bannermen are now barely hanging on, much less be able to send men to help Stannis, even if they wanted to.

 

We know at least SOME Karstarks survived, since they all decamped when Robb executed their lord....

 

The current Lady of Bear Island is 10 years old. It could be that many houses are in the same situation, ruled by little lords or just by people that are not at all prepared.

 

It's hard to know how the Karstarks feel about the Boltons. Robb "denied them their justice" and executed Lord Rickard. His last words being "Kill me and be cursed, YOU'RE NO KING OF MINE"

Edited May 26, 2015 by Bass90

[Slovenly Muse]

It does seem unlikely that the royalty would stop in THAT far down the chain, but whatever. It served to finally get her together with somebody important form the rest of the story, so I won't put much more thought into it.

You're exactly right. And unfortunately I'm finding a lot of this season to be basically good, as long as you don't put much thought into it. At least previous seasons, while slow-moving, were fairly tightly-plotted. This one is a mess of shrugged shoulders and random coincidences putting people where they need to be for whatever story they're telling. Whether it's illogically slow-acting poison, or the mild inconvenience of slavery, or Lancel "unburdening himself" apparently only when it's convenient for Littlefinger, or the North claiming to "remember" and then going "La-la-la-la I can't hear you" when Sansa is abused, or people showing up at the right place at the right time just because... I find myself quite often this season thinking "Hang on, does that actually make sense? Ah, whatever, don't think about it too much." Which is awful, because I love shows that I can trust to be WORTH thinking about. Other great dramas on right now are so rewarding to think about, and pick apart and find all the layers of complexity you missed before, and this show used to be one of them! When you pick apart this season so far, all you find are details that have been swept under the rug. Major plots don't hold up to scrutiny. I hope it can all come together at the end, but I am not impressed so far.

 

Thank god Hannibal is coming back soon.

[Andromeda]

Yep.  Sansa is simply too valuable, and Ramsay's very openly mistreating her.  Roose is a vicious asshole, but he's currently treating his own wife with a certain degree of dignity.  Since he's a rape fiend himself, he's honoring his wife for appearance's sake.  Again - why doesn't he rein his son in?

 

Have we gotten male nudity this season other than old man flabby butt?  The sand snake made me uncomfortable because she looked so young.  I do appreciate that EC has drawn the line, and decided to stop being the designated T&A on the show.  In her bed scene this week, Daario's arm strategically blocked her boobs.

ITA about Roose. And we got Ollyvar and Loras in bed, for a geography lesson on Dorne. Woo.

 

I don't think it's the "same old" Sansa.  That girl quickly learned how to stay alive alone in KL.  She maintained her - Joffrey is my one true love - and obediently married when she was told.  I think Sansa was emboldened by her ability to manipulate the consequences of LF's murder of Lysa, and his belief that she could manipulate Ramsay.  She seemingly isn't able to be passively meek anymore.  She should be rubbing her belly, speculating on a pregnancy, and manipulating a maester to tell Ramsay he needs to be more gentle, for the "baby's" sake.  That's what I imagine Margaery would have done.

I keep thinking of options like that. She has to come up with something, after all she's been through, other than just being long-suffering like she was with Joffrey early on.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Andromeda

[dramachick]

The current Lady of Bear Island is 10 years old. It could be that many houses are in the same situation, ruled by little lords or just by people that are not at all prepared.

 

It's hard to know how the Karstarks feel about the Boltons. Robb "denied them their justice" and executed Lord Rickard. His last words being "Kill me and be cursed, YOU'RE NO KING OF MINE"

 

I take it that Roose Bolton is not going to "call the banners" to fight Stannis, since everybody knows he betrayed his fellow north men at the Red Wedding. 

 

Did most of the Bolton army survive?

 

Is Roose relying on Littlefinger to bring an army from the Vale to help him?  I just can't imagine Lord Royce, et al, traveling north in the winter to fight Stannis.

[whiskeyandfeet]

Bronn really does have a beautiful voice.  I'm glad he's not dead.

 

 

Submitted for your review.

 

[Bass90]

Roose may let winter do the job for him

[dramachick]

Submitted for your review.

 

 

Thanks!  I had no idea Jerome was a real singer.  Talented man.  Now, I'm going to be looking for him to sing on "Ripper Street." 

 

And was that Robson Green from "Wire in the Blood?"  LOL! 

[Tony]

...not sure why the Sand Snakes decided to spare Bronn though.

 

That didn't make any sense.

 

Also, Sansa only asked Theon to light the candle in the tower, without explaining what it meant or who was in the rescue, so how did Ransey figure out about the old lady?

Edited May 27, 2015 by Tony

[WicketyWack]

Watching Cersei's chickens come home to roost was possibly the most satisfying 5 minutes in the history of television. Or chickens. Or satisfaction.

[NFluxForever]

I'd like to think that in the alternate reality where Game of Thrones is a comedy, this episode ended in pretty much the same way.

[ulkis]

I question how good a story it is when, after years of torture, murder, betrayal, rapes, wars, stabbings, poisonings, and various body parts being chopped off, we're just given episode after episode of more of the same with no end in sight.  I'm getting tired of all of it, not just the rapes, near rapes and gratuitous boob scenes.  I'm starting to think the author has no real story to tell and is just milking it, marking time, as long as possible.  That makes the misogyny as entertainment that much more unbearable, just like the torture-porn became with Theon.

 

Yes, well you are not alone in that...and I'm  NOT talking about Benioff and Weiss here. I honestly believe they are doing their best to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

 

 

Yeah, I agree, although I don't think that George Martin is milking it per se. imo he's tired of it and probably just wishes he could drop the whole thing without catching holy hell for it. 

 

I do think the show creators have made some of the details worse but overall yeah I don't blame them for the way the story meanders, that's the source material. Though I do think they should have just straightaway from the first season only depend on what books were out and decide how the story would go from there. I know they've claimed to have their own ending from the start but if that's true, they should have streamlined right from the start. imo.

 

re: Outlander and Game of Thrones and what is more violent/full of rape, I think overall, it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

Edited May 27, 2015 by ulkis

[Philbert]

 

I just noticed these posts referring to Walda as "fat Walda." Has this always been a thing? Because it is not okay. I have not seen anyone referring to Sam as "fat Sam.

 

Admittedly it's a book thing...because that's what everybody calls her because she has a number of sisters and cousins called Walda. I can't remember if they've called her that on the show or not to be honest.

[screamin]

That didn't make any sense.

 

Also, Sansa only asked Theon to light the candle in the tower, without explaining what it meant or who was in the rescue, so how did Ransey figure out about the old lady?

I wondered that, too. Did Ramsey interrogate the candle?

[Drogo]

Admittedly it's a book thing...because that's what everybody calls her because she has a number of sisters and cousins called Walda. I can't remember if they've called her that on the show or not to be honest.

At the Red Wedding, Roose tells Catelyn he was able to pick a bride from Frey's brood and was told he'd receive her weight in silver:

"So now I have a fat young wife."

[Philbert]

 

"So now I have a fat young wife."

 Political correctness (or even good manners) have apparently not made it to Westeros just yet.

[Andromeda]

Submitted for your review.

 

How fun! He's so young, and blonde! And dancing, too! He could have been a minstrel instead of a sell-sword.