The Michael "Sonny" Corinthos Non-Appreciation Thread

[CPP83]

They're already having Sonny targeted, as well as isolated, but since Maurice has resigned now Sonny may continue to have some struggles but he isn't just going to have to keep deflecting enemies left and right either inside or outside of prison.

 

In fact I could see them reworking the whole "Sonny killed AJ" storyline just so that they can spring Sonny and also give him an out on being thought of and held accountable as AJ's real killer.

 

I'm not sure what the plan is but Sonny is going to have to get a "get out of jail free" card in some way, shape or form and it's going to happen sooner than later is my thinking.

 

I would bet the boathouse that Maurice didn't re-sign with the understanding that Sonny would continue to be a gray bearded, beat up chump in prison for the long term. 

Edited December 28, 2014 by CPP83

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I would bet the boathouse that Maurice didn't resign with the understanding that Sonny would continue to be a gray bearded, beat up chump in prison for the long term. 

 

I don't know if this belongs here or in the backstage thread, so I'll try to keep it Sonny-centric. If it isn't appropriate, please move it to where it fits.

 

How does Maurice not get crushingly bored with playing the same thing all the time? We hear so much from the other actors that it's awesome to work with him and that they learn so much from him, etc, but since its been "Sonny Always Wins" for the past forever, how can he be teaching anyone anything about acting when he hasn't hit a different note other than maniacal jackass in a long, long time? He can try to spin the stuff about Ava into "Sonny would never do that!" all he wants, but as someone who knows exactly what he did to Karen Wexler, I can say with ninety percent confidence that he absolutely would. Why wouldn't he opt to use this Sonny-in-prison SL as a possible* way to slightly redeem his signature character?

 

*I say 'possibly', because Sonny is IMO like SBu's Jason, that the only good one is a dead one. But it seems like some weird sort of double-speak to say that it's awesome to act opposite Maurice when he hasn't acted in ages as far as I can tell.

[Chairperson Meow]

I'd think that it'd be interesting if they could get a deal with Brandon Barash and have Jason hate Sonny. Johnny having power over Sonny, with Jason hating Sonny would be interesting. Maybe a plea that Sonny can't be a part of organized crime anymore? I think the only way it would make any soap logic is if it appeared that AJ were alive. Sonny can't be in the mob, Jason/Micheal hate him, Johnny/Julian/Carlos are itching to get him, then put Franco in the Miscavage place with Nina - they're all dying to hit the target on Sonny's back. Sonny stays interesting, doesn't get away with the crime, and Mo gets to play dramatic stuff.

[CPP83]

How does Maurice not get crushingly bored with playing the same thing all the time?

 

 

 

I think at this point he's just used to it. He's played the part for 20 years, he pretty much knows what to expect when he comes to work 9 times out of 10. Sonny's a mobster, some people like him, love him, some hate him, the end.

 

I don't believe Maurice would think about trying to use being in prison as a way to "redeem" Sonny because at this point with all Sonny has done if they try and appease those who want Sonny to "pay for his crimes" they'd never be able to let him out again. Or just go ahead and kill him off.

 

The way I see it, Maurice is being paid to play a role he knows inside and out and pretty much just showing up and speaking lines with or without any interest or passion is all he's asked to do, it's as easy a paycheck as one can make in the acting business.

 

The same goes with Tony as Luke. That character's usefulness, if he ever really had any, imo burned out years and years ago but still Luke isn't getting an overhaul or changing colours because Tony would probably quit first than try and start playing things different now. His idea of "playing it differently" is to become notLuke and speak in a thousand and one terrible accents.

 

Maybe if they gave Maurice a Sonny twin or doppelganger that he could play too, heh, that might be the closest we'd get to a Sonny overhaul. 

 

But what I see with Maurice is what I've seen with most soap vets who play the "villain", after so many years they just settle for the fact that things won't change and they even get to a stage they don't want them to. They get comfortable with playing the character in a certain way and the writers often don't try and rock the boat, especially if they're concerned with keeping them on as they get older.

 

Maurice is still a draw for GH, until that changes or he just finally has enough and calls it quits Sonny will keep being the "dimpled faced 'good' Mobster who can weasel his way out of any and everything" for the foreseeable future.

 

I think Maurice the person is really what the other actors are drawn to at this point, from those who know him personally or have met him out of character he seems to be a highly likeable guy according to their accounts, so I think that's a big reason why they speak so highly of working with him. The same goes for Tony too, as far as I've seen.

 

And once upon a time, in a land far far away Maurice did act and he wasn't too bad at it, but at this point I absolutely feel as if he's coasting on his old work and his old charms and the passion that was once there and the pride is all gone. What's left now is the paycheck and if playing Sonny is what it takes to get it he isn't yet ready to cut ties.

Edited December 29, 2014 by CPP83

[sunnyface]

We hear so much from the other actors that it's awesome to work with him and that they learn so much from him, etc, but since its been "Sonny Always Wins" for the past forever, how can he be teaching anyone anything about acting when he hasn't hit a different note other than maniacal jackass in a long, long time?

 

 

Sonny gets screen time.  Actors want screen time.  Why wouldn't they say awesome things in public about Sonny? 

 

While I cannot stand that vile thug of a character, I give RC/FV props for not making him as much as King of Port Charles as Sonny was under Guza.  It's not as good as not having him leave PC, but it's a step in the right direction.

[jsbt]

I seriously doubt Maurice is still dictating any story as he may or may not have in some of the Guza/Frons glory days. I think he is just trying to go along to get along, is amazed he is still employed, and doing his work to the best of his limited ability. Unlike Steve Burton, he didn't stalk off to "Nashville"/the other studio when he didn't get his way.

[CPP83]

While I cannot stand that vile thug of a character, I give RC/FV props for not making him as much as King of Port Charles as Sonny was under Guza.  It's not as good as not having him leave PC, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

I actually take issue with the fact that they had Sonny kill AJ and yet he is going to get out of prison. He isn't going to die nor will he be locked up, and of course he'll still be the same selfish, self serving slime ball as he's always been not having learned his lesson, or any lessons for that matter. Even now we hear him still not taking any responsibility and always shifting the blame.

 

What Guza did with Sonny was stomach turning, but what I see happening with Ron and Frank is that if they give him a pass on killing AJ they've basically made him invincible and untouchable, which imo is far worse than having just left him as a crappy Kingpin.

 

And it isn't as if Sonny would be the first rotten character they've done this with.

 

Dr. O, Franco, Helena, these characters have all committed the most deplorable, immoral, disgusting, despicable, crimes imaginable. Altogether the murders that they've committed or facilitated could probably pack a small city, yet they are basically giving these evil characters a better chance at life and second chances than the supposed "good guys". It's just crazy to me.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Dr. O, Franco, Helena, these characters have all committed the most deplorable, immoral, disgusting, despicable, crimes imaginable. Altogether the murders that they've committed or facilitated could probably pack a small city, yet they are basically giving these evil characters a better chance at life and second chances than the supposed "good guys". It's just crazy to me.

 

You forgot Carly, who is only different than the aforementioned characters because she hasn't actually killed anyone. She's gotten hot from listening to someone get shot, which is just as bad (and just as gross) but she's never committed a murder of her own. One of the reasons she and Sonny fit so well together, and have been doing the same toxic dance pretty much since they met, is because they feed off of each other's dysfunction. I guess in a way it's good that they actually show Sonny being despicable, because that makes him different than Jason, who was never wrong, but OTOH then you get situations like him killing A.J. and eventually skating for some stupid-ass reason.

 

IMO, Ron should do one of two things - completely flip the script* and have Sonny actually repent and reform, doing a total one-eighty from his slimy ways, or finally send him away for good. Because as you say, if (when) he's released from prison after murdering a legacy character onscreen, Ron will be worse than Guza. Regardless of anything else, telling me that what I saw was not what I saw only pisses me off, even with good writing.

 

*I'm aware that flipping the script would likely require the hiring of better writers, since God knows this current crew probably isn't capable of doing a "Sonny gets redeemed" storyline any kind of justice. They're barely handling the Sonny-in-prison stuff decently. Still, it's Hollywood. I would imagine there's any number of unemployed writers who could do better than this crap.

[CPP83]

 

You forgot Carly, who is only different than the aforementioned characters because she hasn't actually killed anyone. She's gotten hot from listening to someone get shot, which is just as bad (and just as gross) but she's never committed a murder of her own. One of the reasons she and Sonny fit so well together, and have been doing the same toxic dance pretty much since they met, is because they feed off of each other's dysfunction. I guess in a way it's good that they actually show Sonny being despicable, because that makes him different than Jason, who was never wrong, but OTOH then you get situations like him killing A.J. and eventually skating for some stupid-ass reason.

 

IMO, Ron should do one of two things - completely flip the script* and have Sonny actually repent and reform, doing a total one-eighty from his slimy ways, or finally send him away for good. Because as you say, if (when) he's released from prison after murdering a legacy character onscreen, Ron will be worse than Guza. Regardless of anything else, telling me that what I saw was not what I saw only pisses me off, even with good writing.

 

*I'm aware that flipping the script would likely require the hiring of better writers, since God knows this current crew probably isn't capable of doing a "Sonny gets redeemed" storyline any kind of justice. They're barely handling the Sonny-in-prison stuff decently. Still, it's Hollywood. I would imagine there's any number of unemployed writers who could do better than this crap.

 

 

 

I did leave Carly off because I was more so thinking about characters who we've seen kill without remorse or regret but...I should have still stuck her in there, being an accessory after the fact or a facilitator of murder is just as bad. Not to mention she's Carly and that's more than reason enough to group her with such sickos. 

 

What gets me is that Ron has fully laid the groundwork for Sonny to get released and not really pay or change his wicked ways because of what he's done with Franco and Dr. O, and the like.

 

Sonny has a brain tumour too, what a coincidence, or maybe they'll prove that Ava actually switched Sonny's pills and he wasn't taking the right medication so he was literally "out of his mind" when he killed AJ and therefore can't be held fully accountable.

 

Or he could just do what he did with Dr. O and somehow Sonny manages to make the deal of the century and gets to walk right back into his old world and old organization like he never left it.

 

It's sickening to see that Ron seems to enjoy the challenge of letting these... freaks of nature get off some how, some way.

 

It's like he thinks it's fun to do, or to watch apparently, that we sit on the edges of our seats just waiting to see if these murderers and heartless killers can just walk around town, interacting with whomever, for whatever reason, often a victim or a victim's family member like it's nothing.

 

It blows my mind and I just...I just don't get it and I never will. 

[Chairperson Meow]

Or his movie bombed critically and he was like fuck I'm old and I have bills. Gotta resign. Fml.

[sunnyface]

I actually take issue with the fact that they had Sonny kill AJ and yet he is going to get out of prison.

 

 

At the very least, that vile thug of a character isn't on the show every single day.  It's the holiday season and am trying to be kind.  I am hoping that the only reason he was resigned was ratings related and not reflective of RC/FV's 'love of threats, violence and guns'.  I also know that this regime LOVES the mob stuff so my hopes will end up with my finger on the FF'd button or my feet racing towards the barge.

[peachmangosteen]

That's the thing I wonder about the writing for Sonny. Like are we supposed to recognize that he's actually deeply stupid and awful? That when he's feels 'guilt' it's actually self-pity? That he's a huge hypocrite? That he's not strong at all and there's no way he could possibly be the biggest mob boss in the east? Because all that stuff is abundantly clear and yet somehow I'm pretty sure we're supposed to love Sonny and think he's pretty swell.

 

Mind you, it's still not as bad as the fact that we are supposed to love and worship Jason, a paid killer, but it's pretty annoying.

Edited January 5, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[ulkis]

That's the thing I wonder about the writing for Sonny. Like are we supposed to recognize that he's actually deeply stupid and awful? That when he's feels 'guilt' it's actually self-pity? That he's a huge hypocrite? That he's not strong at all and there's no way he could possibly be the biggest mob boss in the east? Because all that stuff is abundantly clear and yet somehow I'm pretty sure we're supposed to love Sonny and think he's pretty swell.

 

Mind you, it's still not as bad as the fact that we are supposed to love and worship Jason, a paid killer, but it's pretty annoying.

 

I honestly think Sonny feels guilty. Not about killing AJ of course, but about making Michael feel bad. 

[CPP83]

I honestly think Sonny feels guilty. Not about killing AJ of course, but about making Michael feel bad. 

 

 

I agree.

 

Sonny is as warped and twisted as they come when dealing with relationships and love and family, not to mention how selfish he is but he would never try to intentionally hurt Michael. Everyone else, including his other kids, are pretty much fair game but when it comes to Michael Sonny's always acted differently. He never learned how to be a good father, or man for that matter, but with Michael he always seemed to try and impress him. Probably because he never had the claim of biology to link them as he does with all the other kids.

 

He hated AJ, and I think feared him and his real connection with Michael, and will never view him as a victim or be sorry he murdered him for a crime he didn't commit, but I do think that he sincerely regrets hurting Michael by taking away the biological father he'd come to understand and love.

[TeeVee329]

I honestly think Sonny feels guilty. Not about killing AJ of course, but about making Michael feel bad. 

 

Agreed.

 

And that puts him ever so slightly ahead of Carly in my estimation, who still doesn't seem to think they did anything wrong and has repeatedly said she would do it again.  #hate

[CPP83]

Agreed.

 

And that puts him ever so slightly ahead of Carly in my estimation, who still doesn't seem to think they did anything wrong and has repeatedly said she would do it again.  #hate

 

 

Sonny and Carly are often the same side of the same coin, but they seem to have varying levels of psychopathy.

 

Sonny sees himself as an extension of other people. He internalizes a lot, he has his demons that he's never been strong enough to overcome, and he sees his valve based upon the opinions and feelings of those around him. I think that's why Michael was always Sonny's greatest achievement in his mind because he got this kid that never really belonged to him to love him and consider him his "true" father over his real father.

 

Yet in Carly's case she's the opposite, everyone else are all extensions of "her". Their worlds revolve around her, they all live to appease her and make her life happy, and easy and fulfilled. To her the people she "loves" are not their own people, they all must know that at the end of the day her feelings should come above all else, even their own.

 

It's why she continues to refuse and refute any wrongdoing in AJ's death or that she needs to actually show Michael some iota of remorse or understanding of what he's going through. She sees him as her son first and only and AJ was scum, therefore Michael has no reason to carry on so, certainly he can't hate her now after all she did for him growing up, snatching him away from the pathetic drunk, and his family, in the first place.

[peachmangosteen]

I honestly think Sonny feels guilty. Not about killing AJ of course, but about making Michael feel bad. 

 

I agree. But I'm not entirely sure it's not more because he lost Michael than about Michael's feelings.

 

And that puts him ever so slightly ahead of Carly in my estimation, who still doesn't seem to think they did anything wrong and has repeatedly said she would do it again.  #hate

 

Carly is so awful. Like, damn girl, Sonny is a better person than you right now, for fuck's sake!

[CPP83]

I agree. But I'm not entirely sure it's not more because he lost Michael than about Michael's feelings.

 

 

 

I think in Sonny's case it's both. He's upset because he lost Michael and he knows why, it's due to what he did to AJ and breaking his word, blah blah blah. Sonny is reacting to Michael's feelings because of how they pertain to him, it's all Sonny ever does.

 

He understands that Michael has pulled away completely from him and that's why he's sorry, that he did something to drive the boy away, but he hasn't and probably never will grasp the understanding that he should also be sorry he killed an innocent man. But because he hated AJ Sonny will forever give himself a pass on that.

[EngradyPind]

I am hoping that Michael NEVER has a positive relationship with Sonny ever, ever, ever again. I know this places a huge burden on Michael's shoulders, but Michael is and always has been Sonny's favorite child and an easy, pliable, little piece of fandom for the greasy little mobster.  If Michael makes any move toward forgiveness of Sonny he is lost completely. 

 

I know that Sonny and Ava too will eventually get out of Pentonville (2050 is too soon for me) and eat the show again. I hate the very thought of this.  Sonny can claim he killed AJ in a fit of anger, but we all know that Sonny was jealous of AJ and hated him with a passion he never had a woman.  Ava is just a cold-blooded killer.  Not even the 'tumor' could redeem Franco, why should Ava be any different? 

 

GH has filled its ranks with unrepentent villains.  There are more villains on the show than heroes or even stage prop characters. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think both Dante and Nathan were ridiculous and levels of pound-my-head-against-a-wall today for all the reasons already stated, but I can't agree with this and this is basically a moral equivalence fallacy.

 

IMO, the moral equivalency fallacy is to say what the show has said for more years than I care to think about - that Sonny is good while those who oppose Sonny (Johnny, Julian, Ava, Lorenzo, Karpov) are evil. Hell, even A.J. was considered to be worse than Sonny, and he wasn't even a mobster. Sure, according to the show's warped logic, Dante basically letting Sonny get away with trying to murder him in cold blood was the right thing to do, because "Sonny would never have shot him if he'd know he was his son." Given the amount of damage the Moobster has done to his other children without shooting them, I'll call bullshit on that every day and twice on Sundays. Had Dante actually done his job, A.J. might be alive*.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Dante. I do. But he blinked instead of pulling the proverbial trigger and ridding us of the greasy little mobster, like so many cops before him, and while in Guza's - and Ron's - world, that's perfectly acceptable and should be commended, I just can't do it. YMMV.

 

*I'm aware that A.J. surviving also depended on Ron not being just as much of a petulant whiner as Sonny, but if you take away the offscreen reasons for Sean Kanan being fired, Sonny being in jail for trying to murder an unarmed cop who was only doing his job likely would have prevented the later murder. Big fail, Dante.

[CPP83]

I may need to move this to unpopular opinions but if my father shot me in the chest; I would forgive him and lie for him. He's my Father after all.  I am trying not to color my opinion with my Sonny hate and if I remove the fact that it is SONNY, then yeah I'm with Dante. I am just not sending my father to jail. Just like he would not send me. Blood is thicker and family first. Maybe it is the Albanian in me

 

 

 

 

The thing is, for me, Sonny only shot Dante because he didn't know he was his kid in the first place. So that whole sequence occurred directly because Sonny and Dante were anything but family. Neither knew who the other truly was and they acted accordingly.

 

Sonny saw Dante as a traitor, a dirty cop who dared come into his organization and play Sonny for a fool so he could get the goods on him and take him down, once and for all. Dante had tricked Sonny and embarrassed him and he just wasn't going to stand for it, so his solution was to shoot an unarmed man in the chest with the full intent of killing him.

 

Sonny didn't give a damn who Dante really was, he didn't give a second thought to the fact that he was taking away someone's son, for example, or husband, or father, or brother, whatever.

 

Sonny had no ties to Dante until Olivia came shrieking in after he shot him and told him the truth. Dante, on the flip side, was lucky to survive. Yes at trial he knew Sonny was his biological father but that's where their connection ended, imho.

 

Dante did not love Sonny at that point, or at least he shouldn't have because there hadn't been the time or opportunity for love to exist. If anything he should have been more than glad to be the one capable of putting Sonny away despite all that had happened. That he had managed to survive and complete his mission after the man nearly murdered him so coldly and without a care.

 

The only bond Dante and Sonny had during that time was through DNA, but they didn't have any real family ties, the sort which would or could allow for such forgiveness.

 

There had been no big reveal, no sit down talks and explanations and hashing out the past and working through the pain and hurt together. They weren't even really friends or else Sonny, despite knowing Dante was a cop, would have still let him live, he wouldn't have just pulled that trigger as if that would fix anything.

 

When Dante decided to lie for Sonny all he really knew about the man was that he was a criminal, he almost killed him, and one night he got his mom knocked up. Sonny was Dante's "father" in name only and even that was a stretch. If anything Dante should have seen Sonny as a sperm donor and not a very good one at that, imho.

[loveigniting]

IMO, the moral equivalency fallacy is to say what the show has said for more years than I care to think about - that Sonny is good while those who oppose Sonny (Johnny, Julian, Ava, Lorenzo, Karpov) are evil.

 

You're right about the show's morality. BUT, it's not an either/or dichotomy - what the show's narrative tried to sell us for years about the twisted morality in PC is a moral equivalence fallacy AND equating Johnny's actual crimes to Dante's is also one - it's basically what the show tried to sell us?

 

Moral equivalence fallacy in my original post was specifically about equating crimes to seem as if they're equal or worse and that's right out of the Guza handbook. AJ drinks, AJ drove someone into a tree, AJ kidnapped etc OMG THE WORST. AJ's definitely not worse or even equal to Sonny even though the show tried to make it seem like he was. Same goes for Johnny and Dante.

 

Had Dante actually done his job, A.J. might be alive*.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Dante. I do. But he blinked instead of pulling the proverbial trigger and ridding us of the greasy little mobster, like so many cops before him, and while in Guza's - and Ron's - world, that's perfectly acceptable and should be commended, I just can't do it. YMMV.

Yup, I mentioned this in my post IIRC - it would have saved us a lot of shit if Dante hadn't lied and Sonny had gone to jail.

 

But, if you're mentioning narrative reasons like you did above with the mention of the stacked deck set in favor of Sonny versus all the criminals you mentioned, then, they can be mentioned as the narrative reason why Dante's character was undercut after he was shot and why the character lied for Sonny even though it didn't make much sense for him to do it IMO.

 

*I'm aware that A.J. surviving also depended on Ron not being just as much of a petulant whiner as Sonny, but if you take away the offscreen reasons for Sean Kanan being fired, Sonny being in jail for trying to murder an unarmed cop who was only doing his job likely would have prevented the later murder. Big fail, Dante.

Yes, I agree with this, if I disregard the out of text reasons ofc. I just disagree with the idea that Dante lying about Sonny makes him the equivalent of Johnny regarding crimes and morality - that's a slippery slope. But, I could also easily argue that while Dante bears a fraction of the blame of the blame for post-2010 Sonny actions, ultimately for many reasons, including out of text, Sonny's choices are his and his alone.

 

I'm...just not a fan of 'If character x had done this to character z years ago, they could have prevented a later action of character z's!!' type of reasoning (That goes for real life too). Sonny definitely wouldn't have gone to prison because the show didn't want him in prison then and, even if he had, would he have stayed in till AJ showed up in PC? Nahhh. Even ignoring the very real out of text and narrative reasons why something happened (Dante lying, AJ being killed), the only person to truly blame for AJ's death is the man who shot and killed him - not Connie as the catalyst, not Ava, not Dante. 

 

This probably makes it seem like I adore Dante or that I love cops (lol no) - I just mostly sympathize with his narrative position. His ties to Sonny are the worst thing for him on a show determined to validate CarSason. When Guza was around, he gave him ST but he also undercut him the moment he could in favor of Sonny - the lying about the shooting. Each incident after that was used to bolster the Sonny/Jason/Carly position and undercut Dante - Michael going to prison and the trauma he suffered in prison, for example, was used for this. So, mostly, I just blame Sonny for his actions and blame Dante for the lying but not blame Dante for all of Sonny's actions that followed post-2010.

 

And, if we want to get deep into it, it never made sense that the state couldn't charge Sonny regardless of what Dante did. They absolutely should have been able to do so. In a story where the writers weren't invested in Sonny going to prison then, the whole shooting was a plot device, and not even a realistic one. The whole exercise was doomed to fail so I can't be bovvered about truly blaming anyone but Sonny for the choices he made after that. 

 

ETA:  I recently caught up on parts of Guza's latter run that I missed so the shooting is fairly fresh in my mind. But, if I missed any facts, correct me.

Edited January 9, 2015 by loveigniting

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Here's the thing, though - if Dante was willing to let it go that Sonny did something as serious as try to murder him, and not just let it go but try to get him put away for something he actually didn't do, doesn't that make him at least a bit corrupt? Or if not out and out corrupt, then at least...hell, I don't even know what word to use. Suggestible, maybe? Sure, you could say that he was just following the narrative, that Sonny is only misunderstood and not an utter shit-turd who "accidentally" shot his wife/girlfriend in the head, "accidentally" almost blew his daughter up with a car bomb, and on-purpose put a bullet into an unarmed man's chest. Sonny is supposed to be honorable, or at least that's what he bleats about every chance you give him. The problem with Sonny's 'honor' is that it's really damn situational and not a blanket concept.

 

So sure, you could say that Dante was just following the 'rules', that within the narrative Sonny is a good guy. But within that same narrative, Sonny does things and says things that no real good guy ever would, starting with Karen Wexler. If the narrative is crap, following the rules of it is also crap, AFAIC. And you're right, complicity is a hell of a drug when it comes to the mob stuff in Port Charles, but Dante is the one who has a badge and swore an oath to serve and protect, and Dante is the one who looked the other way when he A)had no relationship with Sonny and B)had just been almost killed at the moobster's hands. Call me too modern, but I would not be inclined to send the man a Father's Day card.

[Ambrosefolly]

Just putting this out there, but there was a time in our country that potential cops would be disqualified for any connections to criminals, and what Dante does about Sonny is precisely why that happens. 

[loveigniting]

Here's the thing, though - if Dante was willing to let it go that Sonny did something as serious as try to murder him, and not just let it go but try to get him put away for something he actually didn't do, doesn't that make him at least a bit corrupt? Or if not out and out corrupt, then at least...hell, I don't even know what word to use. Suggestible, maybe?

 

Yes, it does make Dante corrupt/suggestible/vulnerable to corruption. All those things. But it STILL doesn't make him equal to or worse than Johnny in terms of morality oops. That was the moral equivalence fallacy we were originally discussing. 

 

Sure, you could say that he was just following the narrative, that Sonny is only misunderstood and not an utter shit-turd who "accidentally" shot his wife/girlfriend in the head, "accidentally" almost blew his daughter up with a car bomb, and on-purpose put a bullet into an unarmed man's chest. Sonny is supposed to be honorable, or at least that's what he bleats about every chance you give him. The problem with Sonny's 'honor' is that it's really damn situational and not a blanket concept.

 

The only reason I brought up the narrative is because you brought up the narrative regarding the show's twisted morality. I mentioned this in my post?

 

I used your reasoning regarding the stacked deck in favor of Sonny versus the criminals you mentioned like Johnny, Julian, Ava. I don't care about Sonny. I don't get where you get that from my post that I was defending Sonny even remotely lol. I do care when characters are cut down to validate Sonny - THAT'S the narrative position I take and I have taken. I agree with everything you said about Sonny. 

 

So sure, you could say that Dante was just following the 'rules', that within the narrative Sonny is a good guy. But within that same narrative, Sonny does things and says things that no real good guy ever would, starting with Karen Wexler. If the narrative is crap, following the rules of it is also crap, AFAIC. 

 

Sonny is an awful person. I don't disagree. I just see the narrative stacked in favor of Sonny, so, I sympathize with the positions of people who conflict with Sonny. I presumed by your post in mentioning the various criminals and AJ who were handicapped by the narrative's favor of Sonny that this was a position you took or understood.

 

Dante, especially, is a walking conflict of interest. I brought up the narrative because of what you mentioned regarding those who conflict with Sonny. Until Ron's insta-reconciliation, that conflict with Sonny and being handicapped by the narrative's favor of Sonny applied to Dante too and it certainly applied in 2010. His position as someone with integrity and someone who would have sent Sonny to prison was severely undercut. On top of that, all the Michael and the Brenda stuff only served to validate Jason and Carly's positions about him. This is why I lump pre-Ron Dante in with the people who were handicapped by the favoring of Sonny. Like, if we can see and sympathize with, say, oh I don't know, AJ shooting his father and kidnapping kids as a character assassination to prop up Sonny and his cohorts, I can see Dante's actions in 2010 that undercut him and propped up Sonny in a similar vein. *shrugs* 

 

I didn't mention any 'rules' in my post - though, yeah, the morality makes no sense if we follow what the show wants. However, the moral equivalence fallacy employed by the showrunners in terms of Sonny vs everyone who opposed him also applies to Johnny and Dante, which was my original point. I won't give up on my point that Johnny and Dante's crimes are somehow equivalent. They're not.

 

I don't care about Sonny lol except about how much the narrative twists things for him - and even that I only brought that up because you mentioned the show favoring Sonny...which is basically referencing the narrative. Like?

 

And you're right, complicity is a hell of a drug when it comes to the mob stuff in Port Charles, but Dante is the one who has a badge and swore an oath to serve and protect, and Dante is the one who looked the other way when he A)had no relationship with Sonny and B)had just been almost killed at the moobster's hands. Call me too modern, but I would not be inclined to send the man a Father's Day card.

 

Absolutely. I agree with all the points you made about Dante And, YET, this still doesn't make him the equivalent of Johnny, which was the original point and which somehow has veered into a Sonny discussion.

 

I wouldn't send Sonny a card either nor would I lie for him. It's surreal to me to see Dante and Sonny talking tbh. Before I edited, I had originally mentioned in my post that I was from an immigrant culture which would see sending your father to prison as horrible on some level but that Sonny didn't qualify as a father to Dante so that point's void. I sincerely hope the 'modern' comment isn't a shot at that because I don't need to mention why that would be offensive, I hope.

 

This whole discussion started with the moral equivalence fallacy of equating Johnny and Dante which still hasn't been addressed justifiably. I have no idea how it became about Sonny lmao.

Edited January 9, 2015 by loveigniting

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I initially brought this over to the Sonny thread because, IMO, Dante being willing to cover up his own attempted murder and try to get Sonny put in jail for something he didn't do, instead of something he did do, brings Dante's morality into question. Not as much as it does Johnny's, maybe, but I have seen for myself that Dante is willing to bend the rules, if not out and out break them, by overlooking the fact that he was unarmed at the time he took that bullet in the chest, and yet now he and Sonny are, if not buddy-buddy, then at least civil. Hell, wasn't Sonny at the christening when Lante still had baby Connie?

 

The only point I was trying to make is that Dante's attitude towards Johnny seems to have more to do with his feelings about his marriage, not with Johnny being in the mob or having been in prison. That's something he should take up with Lulu, since I also think that Dante respects his wife. Considering what he's already overlooked, it is, as I said in the episode thread, a bit rich to think that the mob thing is actually the real bone of contention. And while it's been mentioned that Lulu was at her most fragile when she and Johnny were together, unless the implication is that he was gaslighting her into that state, again, that's something Dante should discuss with his wife. If I failed at making my point previously, then I can simply agree to disagree, so YMMV.

[loveigniting]

I initially brought this over to the Sonny thread because, IMO, Dante being willing to cover up his own attempted murder and try to get Sonny put in jail for something he didn't do, instead of something he did do, brings Dante's morality into question. Not as much as it does Johnny's, maybe, but I have seen for myself that Dante is willing to bend the rules, if not out and out break them, by overlooking the fact that he was unarmed at the time he took that bullet in the chest, and yet now he and Sonny are, if not buddy-buddy, then at least civil. Hell, wasn't Sonny at the christening when Lante still had baby Connie?

 

Yes, it does absolutely bring Dante's morality into question. But the original point I debated was about equating Dante and Johnny and lol nah.

 

The rules that Dante broke and him being a Sonny apologist or being (ugh) friendly with Sonny do not equate to Johnny's actions and crimes (including rape and murder y'all), which I listed in the other thread. This is a moral equivalence fallacy and, like I mentioned, it's right out of Guza's handbook. These points have not been addressed and it veered into Sonny territory. 

 

The only point I was trying to make is that Dante's attitude towards Johnny seems to have more to do with his feelings about his marriage, not with Johnny being in the mob or having been in prison. That's something he should take up with Lulu, since I also think that Dante respects his wife. Considering what he's already overlooked, it is, as I said in the episode thread, a bit rich to think that the mob thing is actually the real bone of contention. And while it's been mentioned that Lulu was at her most fragile when she and Johnny were together, unless the implication is that he was gaslighting her into that state, again, that's something Dante should discuss with his wife. If I failed at making my point previously, then I can simply agree to disagree, so YMMV.

 

I didn't disagree with anything in your original post about Lulu - I think you were right about everything to do with that situation and the hypocritical and possessive way Dante acted and I stated agreement in my original post in the other thread. I did take issue with the moral equivalence though. Dante and Johnny's crimes are not the same. This was my only point and it somehow got buried in everything else.

 

Since this is a Sonny thread, it would be like saying Sonny's actions and AJ's actions are the same. Noooope. AJ might have been character assassinated in 2005 but Sonny will always be worse than him. Him being in organized crime, murder, exploiting women in his career via the strip club, rape of Kannie, his personal abusiveness (from Karen to Brenda to Carly to Claudia and more), all make him worse.

Edited January 9, 2015 by loveigniting

[ulkis]

 

IMO, the moral equivalency fallacy is to say what the show has said for more years than I care to think about - that Sonny is good while those who oppose Sonny (Johnny, Julian, Ava, Lorenzo, Karpov) are evil. Hell, even A.J. was considered to be worse than Sonny, and he wasn't even a mobster. Sure, according to the show's warped logic, Dante basically letting Sonny get away with trying to murder him in cold blood was the right thing to do, because "Sonny would never have shot him if he'd know he was his son." Given the amount of damage the Moobster has done to his other children without shooting them, I'll call bullshit on that every day and twice on Sundays. Had Dante actually done his job, A.J. might be alive*.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Dante. I do. But he blinked instead of pulling the proverbial trigger and ridding us of the greasy little mobster, like so many cops before him, and while in Guza's - and Ron's - world, that's perfectly acceptable and should be commended, I just can't do it. YMMV.

 

*I'm aware that A.J. surviving also depended on Ron not being just as much of a petulant whiner as Sonny, but if you take away the offscreen reasons for Sean Kanan being fired, Sonny being in jail for trying to murder an unarmed cop who was only doing his job likely would have prevented the later murder. Big fail, Dante.

 

I've never seen the show say that Dante lying was the right thing to do. The only people who liked it at the time were Carly, Sonny, and Michael. Everyone else was ambivalent/didn't know/didn't like it. Even Jason was like "I don't trust you" even though Dante lied. I don't think Guza's stance was "it's okay that Sonny shot Dante because he's his son" but "it's understandable why Dante (and everyone else) should forgive Sonny even though he did a majorly fucked up thing because it's his dad!"

[GHScorpiosRule]

And also, Dante truly did think/believe that Sonny had murdered Claudia, and thought (idiotically), that that was the stronger case for him to be charged with instead of the more easily provable, midgety moobster attempting to murder him.

 

But it was all plot pointy anyway. I mean, up until that happened, Dante didn't strike me as one who would lie about how he shot himself in the chest. So, so utterly stoopid.

[Lillybee]

Olivia was also on the "don't send Sonny to prison for shooting you" team and IIRC, she also lied about the crime scene and said that she saw nothing.  Still can't forget that Sonny didn't know where his towels were.

[Melgaypet]

Olivia was also on the "don't send Sonny to prison for shooting you" team and IIRC, she also lied about the crime scene and said that she saw nothing.  Still can't forget that Sonny didn't know where his towels were.

 

Yeah, I remember that. Hell, when Dante was still in the damn hospital - even before he regained consciousness - Olivia was already trotting out the old "the guilt will be a worse punishment than prison could ever be!" line to the cops, while Sonny was in the chapel whining to God about all the bad things that kept happening to him.

[magnolia11]

Yeah, I remember that. Hell, when Dante was still in the damn hospital - even before he regained consciousness - Olivia was already trotting out the old "the guilt will be a worse punishment than prison could ever be!" line to the cops, while Sonny was in the chapel whining to God about all the bad things that kept happening to him.

 

That period when Dante was in the hospital was a nasty parade of one Sonny apologist after another barging into his room, touting the wonders of Sonny and begging Dante not to press charges.  I remember finding it particularly gross when Robin came in and pulled the Stone card, complete with photo.

Edited January 9, 2015 by magnolia11

[ulkis]

Ugh poor Robin. I remember she brought cookies to her "Sonny you did a bad thing" lecture when she visited Sonny to talk about it.

[jsbt]

That period when Dante was in the hospital was a nasty parade of one Sonny apologist after another barging into his room, touting the wonders of Sonny and begging Dante not to press charges.  I remember finding it particularly gross when Robin came in and pulled the Stone card, complete with photo.

 

Oh, my God!

[ulkis]

Ha, that made me remember, magnolia, I forgot about till you mentioned it. I know you didn't really like Julie towards the end of her run jsbt, but this is for everyone:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8HSt3NtlBs&list=PLBEFA64AA3718C7BC#t=466

 

Lulu did the best "who gives a fuck" face after Dante told her all the awesome things Sonny did for Stone and the hospital. Classic.

 

(Cattitude, warning. Dante's hair is REALLY bad there. And you know if I say it . . . )

Edited January 9, 2015 by ulkis

[Lillybee]

Didn't Jason go into Dante's hospital room with the intention of finishing the job?  I don't remember what stopped him. The is one reason that I really hate Jason.

[Ambrosefolly]

I remember finding it particularly gross when Robin came in and pulled the Stone card, complete with photo.

And I am pretty sure that happened after Dante lied about Sonny shooting him in the chest. Like it wasn't good enough, Dante had to love him too. Similarly, when Dante brought up years later, Michael was like "Dude, Daddy's a mob boss and you were trying to bring him down. Get over because that the mob life." Both of them changed their tunes when Sonny's violent, impulsive ass effectively landed on them and their loved ones.

[ulkis]

Didn't Jason go into Dante's hospital room with the intention of finishing the job?  I don't remember what stopped him. The is one reason that I really hate Jason.

 

Yeah. He didn't go through with it because I dunno, Dante answered his question of why he lied for Sonny correctly or something like that (2/9/10): 

 

Dante: Before you do anything, you should know I told the cops that I shot myself by accident. Not exactly something you'd expect a member of New York City's finest to do.

Jason: So you lied to protect Sonny. How far are you willing to take this, now that you know that he's your father?

 

Dante: I didn't lie to protect Sonny.

Jason: You just found out that he's your father.

Dante: So what? What, am I supposed to have all these-- these father-son misty moments coming up? No. Sonny's a criminal. He's gonna pay for the crimes he's committed.

Jason: Then why say you shot yourself by accident?

Dante: Look, if you're wondering about Claudia's case, if I'm gonna tank it and refuse to testify, you can dream on. The evidence is there. Sonny is going to prison.

Jason: You still didn't answer my question.

 

And then Jason went to Sonny to put him to a hypothetical case about a leak and Sonny didn't get it and basically told Jason to kill Dante again until Jason told him he was talking about Dante. Jason told Sonny to let him kill Dante but Sonny refused.

 

Jason: We got a problem.

Sonny: What now?

Jason: Someone in the organization, a guy that we thought we could trust, he knows enough to put us both away.

Sonny: Okay, go ahead and take care of it. There are too many loose ends. We need to tighten things up. And let everybody know that disloyalty comes with a price.

Jason: All right, good, that's what I thought you'd say.

Sonny: Who's the traitor?

Jason: Dante.

 

And Jason still wanted to kill Dante after that, and there was one time where he held a gun on him in L.A. when they were chasing after Franco and he was tempted into shooting him for sending Michael to prison, but he resisted because Jason is a such a prince of a guy.

 

7/26/10

 

Officer: Well, when you put it that way, who needs the grief, huh? Uncuff 'em. Sign here. Pleasure doing business with you, Detective Falconeri.

Dante: Thanks, appreciate all right. Let's get the hell out of here.

Jason: I don't think so.

Jason: Michael should have been able to get on with his life after Sonny's trial, but that didn't happen, because of you.

Dante: Consider the consequences if Claudia died at the cabin. What's the follow-up for Michael if you kill me that kid needs to move on with his life, not deal with another--

Jason: You're the reason he went to prison in the first place! For what happened to him there. What he had to go through. What he's going to have to carry for the rest of his life; the permanent damage that was done to a kid who didn't deserve it because you were arrogant! You were wrong, Dante, but you wouldn't listen. You blew Michael's life apart. Why shouldn't I kill you right now?

Dante: You kill me, there are two ways this could go-- you're apprehended, do maximum prison time for killing a cop, or you take off, spend the rest of your life on the run. Either way, you're gone. No way you go back to the life or the people that you--

Jason: You know what, I thought about that. And guess what? I've decided it's worth it, as long as you pay for what you did to Michael. The people I care about will be better off if you're not around.

Dante: You're going to kill me because you want to. Right now, you don't give a damn who would suffer from it. You need to be thinking about Michael.

Dante: Michael would blame himself. Not only for my death, he'll go all the way back to Claudia's. Isn't that enough guilt and misery for one kid to carry around? Add to that whatever messed up thing happened to him at Penton--

Jason: Don't talk about that!

Dante: I won't say anything about that to anyone. Look, I get that you hate me! I hate myself for what happened to Michael. But this isn't about you and me! What do you think happens to Michael if you kill me? Is your own satisfaction and need for revenge more important than his well-being? If it is, then shoot me right now.

 

And then I think Jason put him gun away and they went off together back to Port Charles and Dante took him back to prison. If only his ass stayed there.

[tvgoddess]

Aw, Claire! I liked her, bad taste in men be damned. I wanted her with Lucky, damn it.

[UYI]

I just got on my Facebook page and discovered that there is, in fact, a Dante and Sonny Fan Club group.

 

Um...I'm going to need to lie down for a little while...

[CPP83]

Is Sonny really Michael's father, though?

 

   

 

Imo, yes. Sonny is an asshole and betrayed Michael and became his father in a horrible way, but he's still his father, or at least, was. Michael can renounce him and never speak to him again, but those years as father and son will still be there, even if Sonny ruined it.

    (I always think of Fringe when I think about Michael/Sonny. The writers need to watch that for a course on how to get you to root for a father/son bonded that started with a kidnapping. Hint: the father in that scenario actually would in fact do anything for his son. Oh, and the father became humble and powerless and in the total care/control of his son. He didn't keep coming out as triumphing over all of his enemies.)

 

 

 

 

 

You took he words right out of my mouth, ulkis.

 

Is Sonny a terrible man? Absolutely, imo, he's awful in every way. Is he as equally a terrible father? Without question as far as I am concerned, he shouldn't even raise a house plant let alone a living human being. And did he steal Michael away from AJ? Yes he did, and he kept rubbing salt in the wound every chance he got, he and Carly both.

 

But regardless of all that, he is still the man Michael grew up calling "Daddy" and he loved Sonny as his father, as the man he looked up to, that he shared a home with, that he risked all to protect, etc.

 

Sadly despite the horrific things Sonny did to claim Michael, he still formed the bond of father and son with him for over twenty years, taking away from AJ the time and opportunity to do the same. Sonny stole AJ's place in Michael's life, not only did he do that but he also helped to instill a distrust and dislike of AJ in Michael as well. 

 

Aside from those times when Jason would step in, Sonny is the man Michael grew up with as his paternal figure. The quality of Sonny's parenting goes without saying, there is none, but he still raised Michael as his own and Michael considered himself as much Sonny's blood kid as his other siblings.

 

I think about real life cases where children are stolen from their true parents and raised by someone else, the bond and relationship still forms as if nothing happened, especially if the child is too young to remember their real family or they're constantly fed lies about them, as Michael was with AJ. 

 

He was too young to know better about AJ being his true father and not the monster he was painted as being, or that the Qs had a right to be in his life and love him too, and the three adults he looked up to most kept feeding him their hatred until it turned into his own, at least while he was growing up.

 

Now personally I in no way think Sonny has ever been a fit parent whatsoever, neither is Carly, or even Jason for that matter imho, but they are the threesome that raised Michael, he is their kid, he is the product of their "brand" of parenting.

 

What Sonny had with Michael is the exact opposite of what he has with Dante, imo.

 

Dante grew up completely removed from Sonny, he is his father in name and blood only as far as I'm concerned. He is Dante's glorified sperm donor, though he is never rightfully treated as such.

 

In Michael's case he never escaped Sonny nor his influence, he grew up not knowing any better. He even pranced about at times acting like some little Don himself. He was Sonny's "heir" basically.

Edited January 17, 2015 by CPP83

[Chairperson Meow]

That's why I want Micheal to never ever become a Corinthos again. He should want to see what it's like to be a Quartermaine. Lots of people do dumb shit as kids/teens. I'll be honest, the writers have played guess who with Micheal's age so much that I'm not sure how old he is. I could have sworn he was 17 when he was raped, 18 when he was released from prison, about 20-21 when he dated Starr, then like 23 when Kiki arrived, however I thought I saw age 21 listed on the documents to change his name to Micheal Alan Quartermaine. His original birthday according to everything I see online is December 29, 1997. So, Micheal is a Sagittarius? Interesting. He is also one of the few SORAS'd characters not so far out of the realm out of their own age. (Hi, Molly.) In 2009, he killed Claudia, with the coverup and prison and eventual rape happening in 2010. Since Micheal may have been 17 at the time of the murder and 18 when he was raped then released (?), he should be 23 now. So I'll buy that 5 years, being in prison, getting raped basically because of who your "dad" was and the life he brought you into made Micheal want to start questioning the Corinthos lifestyle.

Then he saw Jason die. Then AJ came back. AJ came back for his family and faced down his charges and enemies without guns and violence, something Micheal hadn't seen with Sonny. That obviously made an impression on him, re: his words to Carly at the wedding. AJ got to know Micheal as a person, not a piece of property. He never pushed anything on him. Look at the stark difference between Sonny /Carly and AJ. Also, there's the fact that every thing AJ did to Micheal he owned up to. Everything AJ did period, he owned up to his son during the Halloween episodes in 2012. And he was honest with him. For a kid who spent his life being treated like Simba and lied to and shielded, that made an impression on Micheal too.

So in the long run, who's lessons will Micheal take with him? Will it be AJ's? Or Sonny'? I think it will be AJ. All the time you hear about kids who get taken from their parents. But it does not make Sonny this great father. Micheal is an adult now. It's his choice, with a good writer. Now Morgan. ..... he needs a hug.

[ulkis]

Do you guys think if Lila/Anna Lee were still alive Ron would have the balls to have her wheeled over to Michael and say, "oh dear Michael I know Mr Corinthos shot your biological father, my grandson but I was there when you were born and he and Jason loved you so much. It was perhaps all for the best. And also, AJ consumed too much of my relish as well so he rather deserved it I think."

 

It is simultaneously depressing me yet making me laugh. Because it would so happen.

[Tiger]

Maybe this belongs in unpopular opinions, but I think "Solian" is Sonny's best pairing since original recipe "Skate". I dont want to like them, but I do. I really really do. I think for their first official date, they should kill Franco.

[Chairperson Meow]

Tiger, you break my heart of darkness, coal, and ice.

Lila would be too concerned with Jake to give any bother about AJ, Sonny, or Michael.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Sonny has yet to rape someone who then calls him the love of their life.

 

*cough* Karen Wexler! *cough*

 

I guess it wasn't technically rape, since "all" Sonny did was feed her pills so that she's strip in his sleazy club and take her to bed. Not to mention the part where he told her that she must have enjoyed being molested by her father, or was it her step-father? It was a rape of her spirit if nothing else, and he has yet to really pay for it.

[KerleyQ]

Am I mis-remembering?  I could swear Sonny slept with Kate/Connie when he knew an alter was in control (because he thought he could fuck Kate back into her right mind or something).  Did I imagine that ugliness?  

[ulkis]

Am I mis-remembering?  I could swear Sonny slept with Kate/Connie when he knew an alter was in control (because he thought he could fuck Kate back into her right mind or something).  Did I imagine that ugliness?  

 

I think Connie was around for 6 months (or I guess I should say Konnie, since Connie Falconeri the merged whole person wasn't around yet) and she convinced Sonny she was in love with him and that Konnie was really in control and Kate as knew it was never coming back and they slept together. And the next day Kate came back and got mad at him for not being able to go six months without sex. Poor Sonny was very befuddled. 

[UYI]

 

Not to mention the part where he told her that she must have enjoyed being molested by her father, or was it her step-father? 

 

Ray Conway was her mother's boyfriend when she was a child; Rhonda never married him. 

[testardo]

I thought it was someone we never saw on screen , as it was when Karen was young and not a character yet. She was dealing with this when she got older, and she hadn't told her mother. Maybe I am wrong. I know it was one of many boyfriends her mother had. Then just before she left they decided Scott was her father. This has always been one of the major reasons I have always hated Sonny. Putting him with Karen was another. The drugs, Oh yes good mobster he didn't push drugs? Put hits on kids, Jagger, Had runaway teens doing his running, Stone ? Fagin came to mind then and still does. How Sonny ever got to be the hero on this show has ALWAYS been a question to me.