S04.E20: Lily

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

I guess Hook called the whole "Marian" having a child who would turn out to be a mass murderer.  And if Zelena turns out to not be pregnant, then she'll probably run over one of the dwarves and there will be only 6 of them left.

I remember thinking after those scenes played out in the finale that I did not want to be in his head, but he was I guess close to the mark.  People should sort of start listening to him.

This is why Once should never do time travel ever again - because it leads to crap like Zelena returning and getting preggers.

[TigerLynx]

If Emma is going to end up battling Gold, Mal, Lily, and the Author, I don't understand how that will make her dark.  Out of all of these people with their stupid decisions, choices and actions, it seems Emma has the least, if any, bad actions.  Lily has to battle the darkness she was cursed with.  However, the rest of these fools, chose to do what they did.  I hope Emma eviserates Gold, Lily rips the Author to shreds, and neither of them feel bad about it.

[Dani-Ellie]

That just doesn't sit well with me at all. If Lily murdered a whole town it's not her control because the stupid writers don't want these morons to take responsibilities for their actions? Is that what this whole storyline is about? That's just terribly dull writing and the only people I sympathize with is us the audience.

 

No, that's not at all what they're saying. The Apprentice told her that everything would be harder for her, not that her actions are all excusable. And Lily herself said she kept making what she thought were better choices only to have them blow up in her face. I interpreted as this: Lily still makes her own choices but because of her double-dose of darkness, she can't always see ahead of time the negative consequences of her choices. They're not saying she's destined to make bad decisions and none of it is her fault. She still owns her decisions, they just don't turn out the way she thinks they're going to.

 

Sorcerer to Lilith:  Everything will be harder for you

 

This implies that Emma's life was very easy and full of light and happiness.  Except not.

 

They were implying that since they met, Emma's life got better at their separation and Lily's worse.  Except Neal, jail, and giving up Henry.  Proof that they are pulling this storyline out of their ass and trying to force it to fit.

 

That's not at all what they said, either. I didn't at all read it like that. Emma's life was not sunshine and puppies. Everyone knows this. Never once was it stated on the show that Emma's life got better after meeting Lily. In fact, it was shown that each of the times the girls met up, Lily's darkness dragged Emma down with her.

 

Seriously, WTF are these writers doing? I hate all of this fate stuff. I hate seeing Emma, who is generally so level-headed, just flipping out on Lily and pulling a gun on her. Yeah, it's supposed to be Emma's descent into darkness, but that's only because they've taken away her free will. Real Emma wouldn't do that, but they've turned her into a pod-person. When Regina is the voice of reason, I know something is terribly wrong.

 

Emma was pissed off, trying to protect her family, and feeling guilty about killing Cruella.

 

Regina: Your parents need a hero, not a murderer.

Emma: I'm already a murderer.

 

She's in a dark place from having just taken another human life, as well she should be. No matter how justified Emma was in killing Cruella, she still took a human life. That's still something that typically messes with people's emotions.

 

Teen Emma is the bad guy and Teen Lily is the victim because Teen Emma doesn't want to be friends with a person who lies to her all the time, betrayed her, stole from her family (all their vacation money), destroying that family's trust in her and causing her to be sent back into the system? Sounds to me like Teen Emma is a very sane and rational person.

 

 

The reason I don't like Lily is because she's yet another "bad guy" that should be pitied. She's another character that has done wrong things but is totally vindicated because fate controlled her. Boy, did they lay the sympathy on thick. They threw the "intertwined" concept at us and we're immediately supposed to root for her friendship with Emma.. Yeah, no. I even liked Neal better with Emma, and that's saying something.

 

Look, if they really wanted to play the Lily sympathy card, they wouldn't have written Lily fucking Emma over with a new foster family. They would have had, say, Emma fucking Lily over somehow. The fact that they wrote a story where this girl comes in and messes up the protagonist's happiness is not an accident. What they wrote is a story of these two messed-up kids who completely misunderstand each other on a fundamental level. Lily can't stand her family and relishes the freedom of being a runaway orphan. Emma would give anything to have a family and to stop being a runaway orphan. Neither one of them can understand how the other can be unhappy with what they have. I don't think we were supposed to root for their friendship but I do think we were supposed to see why Lily would think stealing the money from the family and getting Emma kicked out was a good thing: because that's what Lily wants herself. She just couldn't see that Emma actually wanted to be there and her meddling would be met with anger rather than gratitude. Again, she made a choice, and it blew up in her face.

[flyingmonkey]

I know this has been noted earlier, but I have to say that the ONLY thing I enjoyed about this episode was its locations:  Mankato for Laura Ingalls Wilder, and Lowell for Kerouac.  If your going to write horribly, at least do it with a nod to the great writing of others.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Look, if they really wanted to play the Lily sympathy card, they wouldn't have written Lily fucking Emma over with a new foster family.

That's like saying if they wanted us to sympathize with Regina, they shouldn't have shown her murdering a village, threatening to kill people left and right, locking genies up in mental wards, committing adultery, and the whole lot of things she does bad. Despite all this, the Woegina movement is still alive. Lily is a parallel to Regina - a look-alike who seems to get in trouble no matter what she does, despite her constant bad choices and moral corruption. It wasn't just when she was a kid, either - she was pulling the same stuff as an adult.

 

Yet we get Emma's guilt complex for doing the right thing... just like her mother. We see Lily waiting to die in a defenseless position, just like Regina did during her execution. It's all too similar for me to recognize it as a different take from what we're used to.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rhetorica]

I'll say it again after seeing this episode...I miss Galavant!

[ParadoxLost]

Look if  they really wanted to play the Lily sympathy card, they wouldn't have written Lily fucking Emma over with a new foster family.

I don't think that is what they were going for.  The just wanted to show that they are yin and yang.  They separate and they shift toward their imbalance.  Lily can't make a good decision if she tries.  Emma find a foster family she wants to belong to.  They come together and Lily feels like her life improves.  Emma feels like Lily destroys everything .

Edited April 27, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[Dani-Ellie]

That's like saying if they wanted us to sympathize with Regina, they shouldn't have shown her murdering a village, threatening to kill people left and right, locking genies up in mental wards, committing adultery, and the whole lot of things she does bad. Despite all this, the Woegina movement is still alive. Lily is a parallel to Regina - a look-alike who seems to get in trouble no matter what she does, despite her constant bad choices and moral corruption. It wasn't just when she was a kid, either - she was pulling the same stuff as an adult.

 

Yet we get Emma's guilt complex for doing the right thing... just like her mother. We see Lily waiting to die in a defenseless position, just like Regina did during her execution. It's all too similar for me to recognize it as a different take from what we're used to.

 

It is different, though, because a bulk of this happened when Emma and Lily were kids. There's a wisdom that comes with maturity, and I can buy an adult Emma looking back on her time with Lily and finally recognizing that Lily was just as lost as she was. Emma spent her life lonely and alone, wishing someone had reached out to her, so I can see her wishing she had taken the chance to reach out to someone else when she had it. We've all done things as kids we're not proud of. I was a typically bossy oldest child and could be mean to my brother and sister. I've had a few people I grew up with reach out to me on Facebook to apologize for making fun of me, and it's like, guys, we were kids. No harm, no foul. But growing up and realizing you've caused someone pain is a hard thing to deal with (even if it was done in the name of protecting yourself). Emma wants to help Lily now because she didn't help her then. It's her way of righting a perceived wrong, whether or not it actually is a wrong in the grand scheme of things. I can't apply the adult moral issues inherent in the Snow/Regina stuff to the Emma/Lily stuff because the parties were at fundamentally different points in their moral and emotional development.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[iMonrey]

 

WHY THE HELL IS YOUR WIFE, WILL?!?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE!?!

 

Did I miss something? Will and Anastasia never married in the Wonderland spin-off and I don't recall him mentioning a marriage since crossing over to this show. In fact I'm pretty sure he has never mentioned Ana once. I've been wondering what became of her too but they're not married as far as I know.

 

Also, Will had been turned into a genie in the last episode of Wonderland. I'm still wondering how he got out of that.

[kili]

Emma wants to help Lily now because she didn't help her then.

Emma did help her then. Emma went along with her lies so that Lily could have something to eat and a place to sleep. When asked to do so, she went to Lily's flop house to retrieve a necklace that meant a lot to Lily even though it meant risking being arrested or facing the boyfriend that Lily herself didn't want to face (if she is afraid of him, shouldn't Emma be afraid to encounter him too if she is caught retrieving/stealing Lily's stuff in his home?).

 

What does Lily do to thank Emma for all these acts of kindness? Destroy Emma's relationship with a family that she really liked.

 

Now, if Emma was an adult with a stable job and support system, maybe she can keep risking herself to help a vunerable, troubled teen. But when Emma is living precariously, has no support system and has never had a support system, has no money and is a child herself, she is in no position to trust a lying troublemaker who brings her nothing but grief.

 

Relationships where one person continuously does helpful things for the other while the other does harmful things to the first person are called disfunctional. It is extremely healthy for Emma to recognize this early on and cut it off before it becomes an established pattern. If Lily wants to be Emma's friend, she should take into consideration what her friend actually wants and help her to achieve those goals Not just deciding that she herself would not like living with that family, so Emma should not either.

 

If Emma had stayed with Lily and continued to enable her, I see no reason why Emma would not have ended up in jail even sooner.Why would Lily stop her life of petty crime? Also, she feels no guilt about leaving Emma holding the bag or being carted off by the police (she seemed to have made no attempt to warn Emma not to go back to the house, when the foster family could have easily have believed that Emma was in on the heist. Also, during their earlier encounter, she still asked Emma to continue the friendship as Emma was being carted off by the police. No, I'm sorry. She actually seems to think that Emma is the lucky one).

 

 It is interesting that Emma does end up having a relationship with somebody like Lily (the life of petty crime she lived with Neal) and the result was not good for Emma.

Edited April 27, 2015 by kili

[Rumsy4]

I don't think that is what they were going for. The just wanted to show that they are yin and yang. They separate and they shift toward their imbalance. Lily can't make a good decision if she tries. Emma find a foster family she wants to belong to. They come together and Lily feels like her life improves. Emma feels like Lily destroys everything .

By that argument, Emma's life should have been easier before she met Lily, and after their final parting. But that has not been the case. Her life has been difficult, and she has consistently made unwise choices as well. Lily and Emma both had troubled childhoods, and of the two, it was Emma who ended up in jail. After she got out of jail, Emma continued to be jaded and pushed people away. She did turn her life around, but it didn't look like she was having a fulfilled life.

Besides, Emma had been presented as a grey character. Snow White is the better candidate to be Lily's antithesis. She too spent a lot of time as a ruaway/bandit. But she apprently always made the right choices. There was always someone ready to help her, and lead her back to the Light when she slipped. That's why the Emma/Lily pairing doesn't make much sense to me.

[Dani-Ellie]

Now, if Emma was an adult with a stable job and support system, maybe she can keep risking herself to help a vunerable, troubled teen. But when Emma is living precariously, has no support system and has never had a support system, has no money and is a child herself, she is in no position to trust a lying troublemaker who brings her nothing but grief.

 

I fully agree with this. However, we're also applying adult worldviews to a situation that happened with two very messed-up teenagers. I don't think Emma thinks that if she'd stuck with Lily, Lily would have turned her life around. I actually envision nothing but bad things happening in both girls' lives if they'd continued on the path they were on together. What I do think she thinks, looking back on the same situation as an adult, is that maybe if she'd tried to understand where Lily was coming from, she could have gotten her better help than just leaving her on her own. I don't Emma thinks she could have "fixed" Lily. I do think she feels guilt and regret for essentially doing to Lily what everyone else had done to her. 

 

I'm not arguing whether what I think Emma thinks is wrong or right. All I'm trying to offer is what I think her viewpoint is.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

Did I miss something? Will and Anastasia never married in the Wonderland spin-off and I don't recall him mentioning a marriage since crossing over to this show. In fact I'm pretty sure he has never mentioned Ana once. I've been wondering what became of her too but they're not married as far as I know.

I don't remember if they specifically said they were married, but in the epilogue they attended Alice and Cyrus's wedding as a couple, dressed in matching clothes as the White King and Queen. When Will first came to Storybrooke in the mother show, they found him passed out in the library, holding a page showing the Red Queen -- Ana.

 

Also, Will had been turned into a genie in the last episode of Wonderland. I'm still wondering how he got out of that.

Actually, he was turned into a genie before that when a wish glitch ended up transferring Cyrus's genie status to Will. But then Will was "cured" in the last episode when Jafar was the one made into a genie. As of the end of the Wonderland series, Ana and Will were verified True Love, since their kiss broke the spell that made her love Jafar, and Will was no longer a genie.

 

Relationships where one person continuously does helpful things for the other while the other does harmful things to the first person are called disfunctional. It is extremely healthy for Emma to recognize this early on and cuit it off before it becomes an established pattern.

That's one of my issues with this episode. It was bad enough that Emma thought back on this one day as her best friendship and considered herself to be at fault for turning her back on this "friend." It's even worse now that we know that Lily came back into her life, used her, and ruined her life. In that case, the memory would not be one of regret but of relief for having distanced herself from the psycho. She might feel some guilt or responsibility now after learning who Lily was, but back earlier in the season there was no reason for Emma to be feeling guilty at all or for her to use that as a reason she shouldn't give up on Regina.

[Rumsy4]

Also, Will had been turned into a genie in the last episode of Wonderland. I'm still wondering how he got out of that.

Jafar was turned into a genie--not Will.

[Camera One]

Also, Will had been turned into a genie in the last episode of Wonderland. I'm still wondering how he got out of that.

 

Maybe you only watched half of "Wonderland"?  Will turning into a genie happened in the mid-season finale in December 2013.  5 more episodes aired after that in the Spring 2014.

[KingOfHearts]

It may not have been the writing. My beef with Lily is that she wants us to sympathize with her. She has a victimized, "poor me" attitude that might be justified, but only because her bad choices are whitewashed by magical fate. It's that blaming of outside forces that grates on me. She's another victim doing bad things with excuses. Regina's finally getting out of that mode and now we have to relive it all over again. That's what's annoying.

 

I don't find Lily to be innocent or just a causality of biased destiny. In her adult life she was shown to be a liar and a thief of her own accord.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Is it a good idea to let Lily go into Storybrooke?  If they were smart, they should have Maleficent and Lily meet in a neutral, magic-free zone OUTSIDE the city limits.  Why do I have the feeling they'll bring Lily right into town, and her magic would activate itself and Maleficent will play mother bear?  There's no way Lily's feelings of revenge dissipated so quickly.

[YaddaYadda]

One of the main things was that Emma was adopted and then returned by her family while Lily was kept by her adoptive parents until they clearly couldn't deal with her anymore.  So if one is so dark or whatever why is that she got adopted, had a home and apparently well off parents while the other one ended up being bounced from home to home?  This show is just weird.

[foreverevolving]

Oh come on people!! you all can't seriously believe Zelena is pregnant.. she's a witch.. it's a fake pregnancy. a stupid twist but it is what it is.

 

The rest of the episode was pretty good. except for all the Belle/rumple shit.. seriously i'm over this ship it was adorable at first but now, and speaking as a woman, it's just disgusting.

Edited April 27, 2015 by foreverevolving

[KingOfHearts]

 

One of the main things was that Emma was adopted and then returned by her family while Lily was kept by her adoptive parents until they clearly couldn't deal with her anymore.

If Lily was even telling the truth about that. She could have just run away again.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

One of the main things was that Emma was adopted and then returned by her family while Lily was kept by her adoptive parents until they clearly couldn't deal with her anymore.  So if one is so dark or whatever why is that she got adopted, had a home and apparently well off parents while the other one ended up being bounced from home to home?  This show is just weird.

Let's see, we have two girls whose fates are entwined because one girl's parents had all the darkness taken out of her and sent into the other girl, so one is pure light and one is pure darkness. The dark one isn't really to blame for her life sucking because it just seems that no matter what she does, she makes the wrong choice or things go wrong.

 

So one girl gets adopted as an infant by a loving family but ends up running away/kicked out and living on the streets, being influenced into criminal behavior by a boyfriend.

The other girl is rejected by potential adoptive parents and grows up bouncing from foster home to foster home until she ends up running away/feeling kicked out and living on the streets, and already into criminal behavior when she meets another criminal and ends up on a brief crime spree with her boyfriend before ending up in jail, pregnant and abandoned by said boyfriend.

 

Which is the dark one whose life is doomed to failure by what was done to her at birth and which is the light one, guaranteed goodness? If Lily is off the hook for her bad choices, then where was all the influence on Emma's life?

 

I don't know that I entirely buy that Lily's parents kicked her out, given how very little of what she told Emma was ever the truth and the fact that she constantly lied to make her situation sound worse. I understand why Emma assumed the worst and ran, and her foster father was pretty tacky in the way he phrased things, but we don't know that she was actually going to be kicked out or sent to another home. So I think even that situation may have been a wash between the two girls.

[Camera One]

Does the teen storyline help to bring in the ABC Family Tween audience?  It felt like I was watching something from that channel.

[YaddaYadda]

So wait a hot second and I'm sure this will likely fall under questions that will never be answered.

 

The Apprentice lives in Storybrooke, the Apprentice left Storybrooke to go find Lily.  Honestly, what the hell!  Was he immune to Regina's curse and just came to Storybrooke on his own to keep an eye on things, wait for the Savior?  Or was he torn from the EF like everyone else, in which case he shouldn't have had his memories.  But if he did, then he is probably the one who was behind the book appearing to Snow.

 

And if he made his way to Storybrooke on his own, then he must've retained his magic, no?  Or did he not retain it?  And when the curse broke, if he didn't have his magic, then it should have been restored in which case, why couldn't the guy even defend himself against Hook (who has no magic) and Rumple when he came to put him in the hat?

[ParadoxLost]

So wait a hot second and I'm sure this will likely fall under questions that will never be answered.

 

The Apprentice lives in Storybrooke, the Apprentice left Storybrooke to go find Lily.  Honestly, what the hell!  Was he immune to Regina's curse and just came to Storybrooke on his own to keep an eye on things, wait for the Savior?  Or was he torn from the EF like everyone else, in which case he shouldn't have had his memories.  But if he did, then he is probably the one who was behind the book appearing to Snow.

 

And if he made his way to Storybrooke on his own, then he must've retained his magic, no?  Or did he not retain it?  And when the curse broke, if he didn't have his magic, then it should have been restored in which case, why couldn't the guy even defend himself against Hook (who has no magic) and Rumple when he came to put him in the hat?

 

He built a door for Ingrid.  I presume he built a door for himself and like Ingrid made his way to Storybrooke sometime after the first curse broke or whatever.  That begs the question of what did sending Ingrid after Emma have to do with all of this stuff

[YaddaYadda]

I presume he built a door for himself and like Ingrid made his way to Storybrooke sometime after the first curse broke or whatever.

 

And I'm fine with that, but he was with Lily a good 13 years before the curse broke.  So did he make his way out of Storybrooke or did he make his way out of the EF to find her?  And I'm thinking he did this without the Sorcerer's knowledge though I'm sure the Sorcerer knows all and sees all.

 

And that sort of begs the question if the Sorcerer is in Storybrooke in human form somewhere since his mansion is there.

 

I don't know why I'm thinking about this while watching a show that's a 100 times better written than Once.

[Rumsy4]

Who knows if the Apprentice was even in Storybrooke during the First Curse! Or why he decided to visit young Lily and not young Emma. Maybe he made a quick trip to the Real World from the EF and went back.

 

Talking of the Apprentice, why was the Sorcerer blathering on that Emma and Lily's fates were always entwined and always would be? This seemed to suggest that even before the Darkness Transference Spell, their lives were connected. Or am I overthinking this? So, is Lily going to be around in S5 as well (ugh)?

[Shanna Marie]

That begs the question of what did sending Ingrid after Emma have to do with all of this stuff.

I wonder where the encounter with Ingrid fell on the timeline. She arrived in Boston before Emma was born, but possibly after fetal Emma was de-darkened. But did he know that the baby he was sending Ingrid after was the baby he de-darkened? Obviously he did by the time he ran into Lily on the bus, but was sending Ingrid his attempt to reach and teach Emma the way he tracked down Lily? And did he think this was a good thing to do?

 

This show makes my head hurt.

[Camera One]

Talking of the Apprentice, why was the Sorcerer blathering on that Emma and Lily's fates were always entwined and always would be? This seemed to suggest that even before the Darkness Transference Spell, their lives were connected. Or am I overthinking this? 

 

I was wondering the same thing since after the Apprentice asked if there was a way to undo the Egg-in-the-portal, the Flames of Stupidity were going on about how "their fates will be entwined as they always were, and always will be".  What the hell is he/she/it even talking about?  Even before Snow and Charming stole Maleficent's egg, Emma and Lily's fates were already entwined?  Why?  

 

 

So, is Lily going to be around in S5 as well (ugh)?

 

Oh god I hope not.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Even before Snow and Charming stole Maleficent's egg, Emma and Lily's fates were already entwined?  Why?  

 

Yes--why? This is just like introducing the Jacob vs Smokey's conflict at the tail end of LOST's run (but at least we had seen the Smoke monster since the first episode and heard of Jacob long before we saw him). Lily literally appeared as a character in S4. Why are she and Emma supposed to be connected?

Edited April 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

I'm starting to think that the only way to reconcile this hot mess is to take nothing as absolute.  There are multiple powerful forces manipulating people's lives but none of them are supremely and unrelentingly powerful at complete exclusion of all the others. So its a big smelly soup of nature vs. nurture.

 

Emma has an innate tendency to make the right choices; but she had bad luck in terms of nurture.  The Apprentice told Snowing it was up to them to keep Emma in the light after removing the potential for darkness from her.  So that means darkness can still get in. Rumpel and August (and whoever August was working with to motivate the Savior) all manipulated Emma's circumstances towards their own ends and always for the worse..

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder where the encounter with Ingrid fell on the timeline. She arrived in Boston before Emma was born, but possibly after fetal Emma was de-darkened. But did he know that the baby he was sending Ingrid after was the baby he de-darkened?

 

When the Apprentice gave the scroll to Ingrid, he told her a Savior will be born and the scroll said Emma the Savior and Ingrid ended up in the LwM is July and Emma was born in October which I guess would put the timeline for Snow's pregnancy right around the time she got that unicorn mobile from Cinderella,  

 

The way I'm figuring the timeline for all of this is basically this.

 

QoD meet because of Rumple (we get the whole Chernabog thing) --> Hook and Emma's time travel/Snowing's meeting --> The whole gauntlet episode --> Regina trades the Dark Curse to Maleficent for the sleeping curse --> Snow is cursed --> they take back the kingdom --> Snowing marries in their grand ceremony which Regina crashes --> Regina goes to Maleficent and steals the dark curse from her on Snowing's wedding night --> the honeymoon -->  QoD go to Snowing for assistance --> Snow finds out she's pregnant --> Maleficent hatches her dragon egg/Snowing do their voodoo with the egg --> Ingrid goes to the LwM -- > Dark curse some 3 months later

Edited April 28, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

I just came back from the future, so will add a few tidbits we'll see in Season 7 and 8.

 

QoD meet because of Rumple (we get the whole Chernabog thing) --> Hook and Emma's time travel/Snowing's meeting --> Snow and Charming turn into evil lions and terrorize the Kingdom --> The whole gauntlet episode --> Regina trades the Dark Curse to Maleficent for the sleeping curse --> Snow is cursed --> they take back the kingdom --> Snowing marries in their grand ceremony which Regina crashes --> Snow and Charming find out they didn't get married because the minister was actually Hades --> Regina goes to Maleficent and steals the dark curse from her on Snowing's wedding night --> the honeymoon --> Snow and Charming cheat on each other during the honeymoon -->  QoD go to Snowing for assistance --> Charming does satanic ritual to ensure Snow gets pregnant --> Snow finds out she's pregnant --> Snow feeds on young sheep to ensure her baby is beautiful -->  Maleficent hatches her dragon egg/Snowing do their voodoo with the egg --> Dark curse some 7 months later

Edited April 28, 2015 by Camera One

[myril]

Funny, how I couldn't care less about such pesky details like timelines or magical items appearing and disappearing anymore, because this show is so fundamentally flawed at this point, that it doesn't seem to matter get headaches over that anyway. In season xyz we will learn, that things have been different all the time and all we thought had mattered didn't, but everything that didn't does, so why the effort.

 

Somehow I managed to watch this show pretty much out of context of all the magic and fate rubbish they're building up, strip it down to just human drama, had to ignore parts of the dialogue though, and miracle, oh miracle, I was able to enjoy a bit of the moments between Emma, Lily, Regina in present time. The flashbacks were only enjoyable because watching two talented young actress at work, not for the writing. 

 

Had a good laugh at the beginning with the funeral scene. I might start shipping Rumple and the Author, just for fun. Those two could make a comedy series of shedding crocodiles tears.

 

Had a good laugh at the end as well. Robin's face, haha, that guy's story is so idiotic. What a pathetic joke they are making of the legendary charmer on this show. 

[Camera One]

Robin finding out wasn't even satisfying.  Why didn't Zelena play being Marion longer?  Wouldn't it be more frustrating for Regina to try to convince Robin, and him not believing her?  

[retrograde]

Also: Did Regina not introduce Robin to modern birth control in Storybrooke? Because Robin cannot afford to raise another child in the middle of Manhattan.

[tennisgurl]

On the plus side, I really like the actors who play young Lily and Emma. They do a lot of good work in their flashbacks, And, at least Lily and Emma met more than once. I can see why Emma would remember her. But I have no idea why Emma would be attached to her memory, or feel bad about rejecting her. She had no idea any kind of magic/fate stuff was going on. She should have just thought of her as a bratty kid who had a good life, and threw it away. They had fun, but she also screwed her over. A lot.

 

So, I am trying to follow all this. So, the darkness does not make Lily evil, so much as it makes her predisposed to poor impulse control, and bad life choices? Inability to see the consequences of her actions? 

[Rumsy4]

Also: Did Regina not introduce Robin to modern birth control in Storybrooke? Because Robin cannot afford to raise another child in the middle of Manhattan.

 

He robs from the rich and gives it to... himself?

[scarynikki12]

All I'm trying to offer is what I think her viewpoint is.

 

I think your assessment of Emma's POV is accurate.  My concern is that I believe that the audience is supposed to agree with said POV and see Lily as nothing more than a victim of the Charmings rather than her own actions.  We're supposed to see that she made bad choices, yes, but that they aren't her fault.  That, somehow, Emma's belief that she failed Lily when she pushed her away is the truth of the situation.  We all see that Lily was a toxic friend whose actions did nothing but hurt Emma emotionally and, potentially, physically.  But I don't think the show is pushing that perspective.  I think the show wants us to believe that Lily's life would have been better if Emma had stuck by her rather than the more likely scenario of Emma's life being much worse.  I think the show wants us to believe that Lily's life was somehow worse than Emma's even though the former was adopted and raised by a loving family while the latter was moved from home to home with no lasting relationships.

 

I also agree that, based on what we know of Lily, it's far more likely that she just ran away again, if only because I don't know that families can legally kick their children out before a certain age and the girls are, what, 14?  If her family could legally kick her out at such a young age, then maybe they did get sick of her but her father was shown looking for her in the fall flashback so I can't imagine such a swift turn around unless she murdered a sibling or something.  Anyway, her opening defense for her actions was that Emma would be taking part in the family chore wheel.  That doesn't sound like a teenager whose home life is so horrible she's better off on the street.  It sounds like a spoiled child who was possibly asked to help out around the house for the first time (given how she fixated on the chore wheel) and ran away to stick it to her parents.  If Lily was spoiled, that's her parents fault but it isn't a good reason to run away and start committing crimes.  Logically, I would assume that Lily's parents continued to look for her until she faked her death, then had a beautiful, and sad, funeral and continue to mourn her loss every day.  Yet I expect her to treat Mal as her only parent and the show to expect us to do the same.

[YaddaYadda]

So thank God for clips.  I re-watched that scuffle between Emma and Lily and the lightning and the lights of the bug blowing up happened when Lily threw her punch at Emma.  So I'm guessing we got a demonstration of what Lily is capable of ahead of next week and the preview we got.

 

And I'm not pretty certain all of this ends with her death.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm wondering just what the hell Lily was doing for all those years looking for Emma. There was a card for a private investigator next to Emma's picture, but it doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to find Emma Swan. Ten year old Henry found her no problem. And then in the missing year, Emma was established in NYC with no attempt to disguise her identity. Why wouldn't Lily have been keeping an eye on Emma? Shouldn't there at least be an updated picture? If you want to find a way into Storybrooke, clearly Emma was the key. Lily and her investigator suck at finding people apparently.

[tennisgurl]

 

My concern is that I believe that the audience is supposed to agree with said POV and see Lily as nothing more than a victim of the Charmings rather than her own actions.

BUT, if we are sticking with this line of thinking, then aren't the Charmings innocent victims of the Author? Didn't he force them to steal Lily and give her Emma`s darkness, when they normally wouldn't have? That makes this all HIS fault, right? Now, I don't think Emma, or even the Charmings know about how the Author manipulated all that, but we do! Maybe even Lily does, if the Apprentice told her the whole story. Then, she should be pissed at the Author, not them, or at least, more than at them. eventually, I assume we are going to get more back story in the Author, and we can figure out why he`s doing all this, and blame it on them (I don't think it was just the thing with Cruella)! 

 

It just turns into a never ending circle of passing the buck, where no one is really responsible for anything, because of mean parents, or hearts, or fate, or authors, or whatever. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

So thank God for clips.  I re-watched that scuffle between Emma and Lily and the lightning and the lights of the bug blowing up happened when Lily threw her punch at Emma.  So I'm guessing we got a demonstration of what Lily is capable of ahead of next week and the preview we got.

 

See I thought that the punch was what set Emma off completely and that's why the lightning and headlight burst. Emma was the one who was super angry in that fight, Lily just seemed to be enjoying riling her up. I don't know. I guess you could apply it either way, but we know Emma's anger has that effect and Emma was hugely massively angry - to the point where she was willing to execute Lily right there in the road.

[Camera One]

BUT, if we are sticking with this line of thinking, then aren't the Charmings innocent victims of the Author? Didn't he force them to steal Lily and give her Emma`s darkness, when they normally wouldn't have? That makes this all HIS fault, right? Now, I don't think Emma, or even the Charmings know about how the Author manipulated all that, but we do! Maybe even Lily does, if the Apprentice told her the whole story. Then, she should be pissed at the Author, not them, or at least, more than at them. eventually, I assume we are going to get more back story in the Author, and we can figure out why he`s doing all this, and blame it on them (I don't think it was just the thing with Cruella)! 

 

It just turns into a never ending circle of passing the buck, where no one is really responsible for anything, because of mean parents, or hearts, or fate, or authors, or whatever. 

 

That is not how they are framing it in terms of the Charmings, though.  The show is saying they ARE at fault and they need to take responsibility, even if they were nudged in that direction by the Author.  The whole flashbacks showed how difficult Lily's life was, and the blame lay at Snow and Charming's feet.  That was even stated by various characters in this episode, such as:

 

MALEFICENT:  I'm afraid I'm not the one whose forgiveness you really need.

SNOW/CHARMING: Your daughter.

MALEFICENT: She was an innocent. It's her you need to apologize to.... Well, you've been so worried that the Dark One might turn Emma into a monster, you forgot that's exactly what you did to my Lilith.

 

And then later:

 

REGINA: Emma, there are powers beyond our understanding, and your parents messed with them.

 

--

 

Whatever the Apprentice said to Lily, the message she came away with is what she said to Emma in this episode.  She didn't even mention the Author, so maybe the Apprentice didn't tell the whole story.  I still don't get what the Apprentice hoped to do with that conversation with Teenage Lily.

 

LILY: "Your parents are monsters, Emma.  They banished me and threw you in a wardrobe.  And now here you are, ready to die for them, because you're so perfect. The savior.  Well, they deserve to be punished."

 

LILY: "Thanks to you, I'm hardwired for bad decisions."

Edited April 28, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

The scene where Snow and Charming went to make amends to Mal was soooo silly. First of all, this was the first time it occurred to those two? They never tried to find out if Mal's daughter had survived? Theirs did.

 

As for Mal, all the while she was spouting off about Snowing hurting an innocent, I kept thinking of all the people she cursed and burnt in the Enchanted Forest. I just can't even with this show...

[Dani-Ellie]

The whole flashbacks showed how difficult Lily's life was, and the blame lay at Snow and Charming's feet.

 

....

 

LILY: "Your parents are monsters, Emma.  They banished me and threw you in a wardrobe.  And now here you are, ready to die for them, because you're so perfect. The savior.  Well, they deserve to be punished."

 

LILY: "Thanks to you, I'm hardwired for bad decisions."

 

Characters are allowed to be wrong, because the characters also see the circumstances through their own biases. We know Snow and Charming aren't monsters. Of all the characters on the show, they're probably the least monster-ish. I don't see why Lily blaming Snow and Charming is any kind of moral indictment of Snow and Charming because of course she would. In the words of Cruella, it's easier to blame someone else than your own bad decisions.

 

Same thing with the Apprentice talking to Lily. He did that to assuage his own guilt. He even said that he wasn't supposed to be telling her what he was telling her. He took responsibility for what happened to her while also trying to give her a bit of encouragement that she wasn't some kind of loser who just can't do anything right and that there was a reason for her seeming bad luck. Had she taken it a different way, it would have been an empowering thing for her to fight against the darkness rather than succumb to it.

 

This again goes back to what I was saying last week about every word out of every character's mouth not having to be a big meta statement on morality and ethics. Sometimes dialogue is for that purpose but sometimes it's to show the character's mindset or to provide context for setting and further dialogue.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

But the writing does show a bias in presenting the villain's point of view. I'm just tired of seeing sob story after sob story that is meant to make the villains sympathetic. As people have mentioned in other threads, the so called "heroes" are seldom allowed to call out the villains. They are expected to give the villains chance after chance, but are not given the same grace when they mess up. The show does a poor job of presenting both sides of the argument. I guess I'm all out of empathy for the stream of whiners we seem to be getting as the bad guys. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[MDKNIGHT]

You know what I would have found interesting?  If because Lily had "darkness" foisted upon her she had been evil AND SUCCESSFUL.  Let's face it.  Part of why we love fairytales is that in them the good triumph and are rewarded and the evil are punished CONTRARY to how it is in REAL LIFE.  In real life your moral standing does not affect your success and you can even make an arguement that the more evil and ruthless you are, the more chance you have to succeed at least in some fields. High finance is full of sociopaths.  It would have made sense if the spell had made Emma choose good even when it was detrimental to her and that had cost her some things growing up.  Lily on the other hand could have slept her way to the top or been and identity thief and lived the high life on other people's money etc etc and then it would have been an interesting confrontation of whether somebody who has a lot of marterial things would want to change.  I agree with many that if they just HAD to mess with free will they could have at least put up a story that was much better than this. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

But the writing does show a bias in presenting the villain's point of view.

 

It also continues to try to manipulate us into feeling bad for Rumpel. See how great he is getting his wife's heart back and giving her his blessing to move on? Isn't he wonderful? Shouldn't Belle forgive him and give him another chance? All of this while he is still manipulating murder and mayhem with the other residents in town. But oh Rumpel, he's just misunderstood and the poor man is dying. Poor, poor Rumpel. I don't give a crap about Rumpel's problems and I have serious issues with the idea that Belle would ever go back to him. 

 

Emma commits justifiable homicide and everyone fears she's suddenly going all evil despite feeling immense guilt and remorse. It's presented that one slip down the path makes Emma almost irrevocably bad. Contrast that with Rumpel, who runs around destroying lives right and left (and continues to do so), but he deserves grace and forgiveness because of one little speech where he demonstrates a modicum of self-awareness. It's such a ridiculous dichotomy where the villains always deserve second chances even when not really demonstrating change or remorse, but the heroes are vilified for one action and that villainy is such that they cannot ever achieve grace despite endless remorse and efforts to change.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

It's such a ridiculous dichotomy where the villains always deserve second chances even when not really demonstrating change or remorse, but the heroes are vilified for one action and that villainy is such that they cannot ever achieve grace despite endless remorse and efforts to change.

 

Taking this to the all seasons thread. 

[Dianthus]

It's funny really. I think I don't particularly care for any of the men on this show. Probably why I half ship Emma and Regina. I think both Hook and Robin are boring as hell. It's fun to ship SwanQueen on Twitter. At least Regina and Emma are interesting. They make for fun road trips and high speed chases. I would have watched the hell out of several episodes of them.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather see Emma with someone who values her happiness as much as his/her own. Regina is NOT that person. Regina is toxic.

 

My friend and I were watching this ep over at his place. We both live in the same...ahem...trailer park. Thanks Writers! A--holes.