S10.E19: The Werther Project

[bethy]

I'm not sure myself. I need to watch again, but I wasn't sure actually that that would be the kind of thing Sam would do, and I thought that Dean was actually giving Sam an excuse / story that he knew wouldn't be likely to see if Sam would "bite" so that if Sam did, Dean would be pretty sure that it wasn't the truth without actually tipping his hand that he knew it wasn't the truth. I thought it was sort of a mind game on Dean's part.

I went back and forth. On the one hand I could see Dean landing on thinking Sam was "punishing" him, but at the same time that hasn't been their dynamic this season. Last season, though, Sam did punish Dean by giving him the cold shoulder. Given Dean's reference to the conversation from the Purge - also last season - I wonder if Dean's aware something is off, but can't quite figure out what it is, so he's kind of regressing to the last time Sam wasn't including him?

I don't know. I did feel like Sam was trying to figure out how best to respond to Dean's presence and keep his secret. Maybe the "And?" was more of a fishing expedition to see if Dean really understood what Sam was up to. Like Sam thought maybe it was a trap?

The thing is I'm not sure Dean has the bandwidth to play a mind game with Sam now. I wonder if the Mark is be blinding Dean to something going on with Sam behind his back. I think fighting the Mark and its pull may be distracting Dean. In a way he's avoiding Sam - workouts, solo hunts, alcohol, bad movies - even as Sam's avoiding him. Currently, what we seem to be seeing from Dean is more openness about what's going on with him than we have in the past. Though maybe it is all games and the demon is pushing through.

Edited April 23, 2015 by bethy

[rue721]

The thing is I'm not sure Dean has the bandwidth to play a mind game with Sam now. I wonder if the Mark is be blinding Dean to something going on with Sam behind his back. I think fighting the Mark and its pull may be distracting Dean. In a way he's avoiding Sam - workouts, solo hunts, alcohol, bad movies - even as Sam's avoiding him. Currently, what we seem to be seeing from Dean is more openness about what's going on with him than we have in the past. Though maybe it is all games and the demon is pushing through.

 

I agree, I don't think Dean was playing a mind game.

 

It seemed to me that he wasn't taking Sam seriously, he was just sort of rolling his eyes/scoffing at him in general. So, when he found out that Sam was up to something and keeping a secret from him, instead of really worrying that what Sam was up to could be dangerous or sinister, Dean figured, "I guess Sam's pissed. Wtvrs" and just barged into the car/case.

 

That's also the vibe I got from how Dean handled it when Sam confronted him about the vampire nest -- Dean just blew Sam off. How he was (not) responding to Sam in a lot of the episode seemed to me very unlike how Dean usually is toward Sam in particular, and like a big red flag that the Mark was gaining more sway over him.

 

Imo, Sam isn't up to anything all that sinister anyway, just really desperate. He clearly thinks he's in this alone, and it looks like he kind of is, because he and Dean apparently can't work as a team anymore. I mean, Dean did say at the end of this episode that they could/should work as a team, but his behavior through 95% of the episode told a different story (like how he didn't bother to wait for Sam at the vampire nest) -- and apparently, that "different story" is the story that Sam believes, seeing as he's going ahead with the plan of Rowena taking the "curse" off using the book.

 

It also made me think that John's absences may have felt like punishment to Dean as he was growing up sometimes - after the shtriga John left them at Jim's, right?

 

Last season there was the episode about Dean getting left in a group home for a few months as punishment, so I guess when they were growing up, some absences *were* meant as punishments.

 

But imo Dean just generally tends to take it personally and find it hurtful when Sam wants to split up or leave. As the most obvious example of that, there's the massive grudge/blowout(s) over the 2001 classic, "Sam Leaves [Dean] for College" and its 2010 sequel, "Sam's Heaven is Leaving [Dean] for College." Sam didn't even actually leave Dean after the Purge speech, but apparently even the threat of Sam abandoning him in some vague hypothetical situation was enough to get under Dean's skin, since he's still bringing it up a year later. So, in this episode, it actually was striking to me how *not* upset Dean was about Sam's duplicity and sneaking off. He didn't seem like he was taking it personally or like he was hurt by it at all.

 

Also, wasn't it just last week that the episode opened with Dean having nightmares and calling out to Sam for help (while he was still asleep)? But this week, he apparently can't even understand why he should bother waiting for Sam to help him, let alone why he should seek Sam's help. Another change/bad sign imo.

[catrox14]

I don't think Dean is faking nor do I think he's playing mind games. I think he KNOWS something is up with Sam. Sam is still his brother. He knows when he's lying. I think he's just not calling him out on it until he figures out what he's up to.  I read elsewhere complaints about Dean taking an etching and following Sam instead just asking Sam what was going on. And I thought well Sam is not going to tell him the entire truth anyway, so why bother.  And why is Dean not asking worse than Sam not telling the truth...?  It was a strange complaint IMO

Edited April 24, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Imo it's not that it's so *bad* that he took the rubbing, it's more that the whole thing was unsettling and weird.

 

The way he just appeared at the car and hopped in, and then waved that rubbing in Sam's face as this visible proof that he'd been two steps ahead of him (and acted so nonchalant about it, like ~of course~ he'd been two steps ahead of Sam)...Like I said, just really unsettling. It was also strange imo how emotionless he was. Usually he'd have had *some* personal feelings  about Sam being secretive, leaving him, etc etc etc (hurt? anger? worry? *something*). Especially given how freaked out he's been. He might have even felt awkward about admitting that he'd tracked Sam like that. But imo he didn't really seem to feel anything much at all. He wasn't even that curious about the case.

 

IMO that scene was unsettling in the same way that him taking on a whole nest full of vampires by himself, killing them handily, and then all but rolling his eyes at the idea that he should/would want to wait for Sam to help him was unsettling. He didn't seem like Dean and imo he didn't really seem human.

[catrox14]

Well, yes it was totally unsettling and it was meant to be.  And it was awesomely unsettling.

 

I just couldn't understand the complaint about Dean not asking Sam for the truth when as though Sam would just be all "Okay Dean I'll tell you about the big lie I have going on". 

[SueB]

I just have to say, Rowena's face and reactions as she was rubbing/pumping Sam's arm as he was bleeding out.....COME.ON. I MEAN ARE YOU SERIOUS? I literally LOL'd and was okay show...if that's how you need to do a metaphor for a handjob...LOL

Oh. Was that what it was supposed to be?  Totally missed that. Doh.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think Dean is faking nor do I think he's playing mind games. I think he KNOWS something is up with Sam. Sam is still his brother. He knows when he's lying. I think he's just not calling him out on it until he figures out what he's up to.

 

Maybe "mind game" was a bit harsh of a term for me to use, because this is pretty much what I meant. I was postulating that maybe Dean didn't really think that Sam left to do a case on his own to "punish" Dean, and he knows that Sam is up to something and wanted to see what Sam would do if he suggested something somewhat plausible but not necessarily what Dean thought. And maybe how much Sam was trying to hide would be reflected in his answer... in my opinion a not sneaky Sam might potentially be insulted / annoyed / defensive about being accused of basically throwing a hissy fit by going off on his own to "punish" Dean (even if he was doing so) and a bitchface would've been on order. And Dean is just letting Sam confirm Dean's suspicions while at the same time appearing to not know and maybe find out something else.

 

Imo it's not that it's so *bad* that he took the rubbing, it's more that the whole thing was unsettling and weird.

 

The way he just appeared at the car and hopped in, and then waved that rubbing in Sam's face as this visible proof that he'd been two steps ahead of him (and acted so nonchalant about it, like ~of course~ he'd been two steps ahead of Sam)...Like I said, just really unsettling. It was also strange imo how emotionless he was. Usually he'd have had *some* personal feelings  about Sam being secretive, leaving him, etc etc etc (hurt? anger? worry? *something*). Especially given how freaked out he's been. He might have even felt awkward about admitting that he'd tracked Sam like that. But imo he didn't really seem to feel anything much at all. He wasn't even that curious about the case.

 

IMO that scene was unsettling in the same way that him taking on a whole nest full of vampires by himself, killing them handily, and then all but rolling his eyes at the idea that he should/would want to wait for Sam to help him was unsettling. He didn't seem like Dean and imo he didn't really seem human.

 

The highlighted section is what gave me the "mind games" vibe - I can't think of a better term here - like Dean's either subtly trying to keep Sam off balance hoping he'll get some information, or he's just so sure that something's going on and that he'll find out what it is, that he's totally non-nonchalant about it. Or - and this is maybe even more disturbing - Dean thinks he's acting entirely normally here.

[SueB]

 

 Or - and this is maybe even more disturbing - Dean thinks he's acting entirely normally here.

This is what I think.

[catrox14]

Oh. Was that what it was supposed to be?  Totally missed that. Doh.

 

Oh I don't know if was intentional but was pretty sexual and I'm not THAT much of a dirty bird.  But every time Sam is bled there is a sexual aspect to it IMO....

[Julia]

I took it as Rowena being the closest to talking Sam into suicide, because everyone got that, but I may have gotten it wrong.

[catrox14]

Well, I was really making a joke more than anything...LOL .  Wrong audience I guess ,,,

[AwesomO4000]

I wouldn't blame the actress for even accidental imagery, because she was squeezing Jared's - I'm assuming - muscly arms.

 

But every time Sam is bled there is a sexual aspect to it IMO....

 

Now that you mention this...

 

But I've always thought that Jared does great pain face, body movement, and screaming while Jensen does the pretty crying.

[supposebly]

You people.....amuse me. :-)

 

After a quick rewatch, I thought it was rather twisted that Sam's hallucination was Rowena saving him from the other hallucination that was going to talk him into killing himself.

 

Dean creeps me out throughout the episode. That's never happened before. I think Sam was a bit creeped out too.

 

I'm not sure Dean or rather Deanmon really cares about Sam being secretive.

[catrox14]

 

But I've always thought that Jared does great pain face, body movement, and screaming while Jensen does the pretty crying.

 

Oh I think Jensen does the pain thing pretty well too. I don't think Dean has had many scenes where he's actually crying out in pain. To me he does much more of the internal quiet pain and suffering that is all over his face. I mean seriously Faith, On the Head of a Pin, every time someone beats the shit out of him.  I feel it.  Sam's a hardcore ugly crier.  and it's great!

[Wynne88]

I thought Dean was very creep-ish when he wormed his way into the lady's house and kept asking questions that should have freaked her out long before Sam made the noise in the basement.   Here's a strange man in the kitchen, who was never invited inside in the first place, and he's asking her if she lives alone . . .   She didn't seem all that worried at first, which I thought was weird.

 

Overall, I loved the episode.  It is so nice to be able to say that without adding a 'but'!

[catrox14]

 

Dean creeps me out throughout the episode. That's never happened before. I think Sam was a bit creeped out too.

 

I'm not sure Dean or rather Deanmon really cares about Sam being secretive.

 

Dean seemed creepy in Book of the Damned after he got a whiff of the Book. He said it was doing something to him and I believe it. Like when he brought up the Purge speech he was super edgy about that.  And it seems different than his spiral in s9 when he just started drinking and stuff. He didn't have the same kind of edge as now. It's almost like it's that part of him but now demon!Dean is peeking out. Maybe demon!Dean is the not giving a shit part and is possibly fucking with Sam because he can. I would be on board with that.

I thought Dean was very creep-ish when he wormed his way into the lady's house and kept asking questions that should have freaked her out long before Sam made the noise in the basement.   Here's a strange man in the kitchen, who was never invited inside in the first place, and he's asking her if she lives alone . . .   She didn't seem all that worried at first, which I thought was weird.

 

Overall, I loved the episode.  It is so nice to be able to say that without adding a 'but'!

 

I didn't think that was creepy because how many times have the boys done exactly that over the years? I mean they posed as priests before to get inside a home. That's pretty creepy too. I  thought the way he played the neighborhood watch guy was hilarious, with the high pitched voice reactions to the gun. But the moment he though Sam was in danger, his demeanor became straight up deadly serious. I loved Jensen's flip of the switch during that whole scene. So good.  But I am pretty terrified of the strength he showed getting free of the ropes!

[Rammfan]

Oh I don't know if was intentional but was pretty sexual and I'm not THAT much of a dirty bird.  But every time Sam is bled there is a sexual aspect to it IMO....

 

And remember that that wasn't really Rowena, that was Sam jacking off his own arm ;)

[DittyDotDot]

I just couldn't understand the complaint about Dean not asking Sam for the truth when as though Sam would just be all "Okay Dean I'll tell you about the big lie I have going on". 

 

I don't think it was a complaint of Dean vs Sam--I don't think anyone thinks Sam's lying will come to a good end--but an observation that things weren't right in Deanland. Wheather Sam has good intentions and reasoning for the lying, it's not an unusual thing to happen, but Dean being so non-chalant about just about everything, was. I found Dean really unsettling throughout the episode, he's just enough off that you know he's losing it and bad shit is coming down the pike, but not so far that it's eye-roll inducing. Not that we didn't know that anyway, but it's nice to see it onscreen rather than being told it. Nicely played, show. Nicely played.

 

Overall, I loved the episode.  It is so nice to be able to say that without adding a 'but'!

 

I know what you mean!

 

 

 

ETA: Rowena rubbing Sam's arm scene...that was the moment I was sure she wasn't real. I mean, I thought she might not be when she said she'd only brought enough of the potion for one person and it seemed a bit too convenient Sam would be the only one not affected by the spell, plus Rowena wasn't really all that helpful with safe in the end. But the arm-rubbing scene was the clincher. The way she was pushing Sam to give all his blood was so not Rowena. I love the episode engaged me enough to be pondering these things throughout the episode. Not one game of Solitaire was even considered while watching this one.

Edited April 24, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I have to say other than being somewhat hyper after the vamp nest, I didn`t find Dean to be unsettling or creepy. He still seems more or less perfectly in control. Even with the vamps, he explained that it helps take the edge off. Which is actually a reasonable thing to do then if he seeks out mini-hunts like this.  

 

When he got in the car with Sam, it was clear that Dean knew something was up and since Sam had no poker face whatsoever, he knew that Dean knew so he came up with a semi-believable explanation. But at no point did I think he acted menacing or creepy. Not being a big fuss and being a bit more aloof in situations like this is IMO a good thing, one that I`d like for the character to retain.

 

And approaching civilians with silly excuses has been a staple of the show. In 99 % of the cases, they should come across as super-creepy but because of plot conveniences, people always buy their stories. I can at least handwave that since they are attractive. 

 

Rowena being a hallucination was a semi-decent twist. 

 

I will also give some props for acknowledging that Rowena has been actively trying to kill them, Dean very recently, so asking her for help is kinda out there. And Sam did take some precautions. But I remember that with Abaddon they took precautions as well and then when it counted they let her escape because they needed to take a phone call outside. Both of them. Urgh. I reckon a similar plot contrivance will free Rowena and then she will be way less inclined to be helpful.

 

Loved seeing Benny. His chemistry with Dean still sizzles.

[bethy]

And approaching civilians with silly excuses has been a staple of the show. In 99 % of the cases, they should come across as super-creepy but because of plot conveniences, people always buy their stories. I can at least handwave that since they are attractive. 

 

 

 

Dean slipping past the crazy lady with the gun in the doorway was funny to me, rather than creepy, especially the little crack in his voice as he did it, eyeing where her gun was pointed.

 

But I do think that's the first time we've seen him actually go into a house with someone standing at the door without explicitly being invited? And I found that... notable. I do think Dean has a "whatever" kind of attitude about things at the moment. He knows the Mark won't let him be killed (am I remembering that right?) so he has a confidence about solo hunts, or confronting Sam, or walking past ladies holding guns, or even being honest about what's going on with him that's maybe a little careless. But it doesn't seem to be careless in an angry or bitter way. 

[catrox14]

 

You people.....amuse me. :-)

 

What do you mean by, "you people"? :)

[cassandle]

I have to say other than being somewhat hyper after the vamp nest, I didn`t find Dean to be unsettling or creepy. He still seems more or less perfectly in control. Even with the vamps, he explained that it helps take the edge off. Which is actually a reasonable thing to do then if he seeks out mini-hunts like this.  

 

I didn't find him creepy either--at first.  I rewatched parts of it last night and was surprised by how different it was than what I remembered.  Dean jumping into the car wasn't as jokey/funny as I had thought and the vampire nest scene was darker than I remembered.  I don't know if it's because I was reading comments all day and that changed my perspective or if I was so exhausted the first time I watched it I only saw what I wanted to see.  Either way, it plays differently for me now.  Weird.

 

The Speed 2: Cruise Control line, however, was still just as hilarious :)

[catrox14]

DittyDotDot...my referencing that comment which was a complaint I saw in other circles, not here, was not to engage a Sam vs Dean debate on my part. And my comment about that complaint was also not to engage a Sam v Dean debate.

 

I guess to me both brothers not telling the whole truth is in character whether I like it or not..

The idea of one trying to figure out what the other one is doing is not necessarily character regression and it's not a particularly wrong strategy either. 

 

Dean had secrets when he was allying with Crowley that he didn't want Sam to know about because Sam would have been trying to talk him out of it and IMO Dean was partly ashamed of it.  Of course, it was too late for Dean because he had already taken on the Mark and it was doing it's thing to him so Sam couldn't have done anything anyway.

 

I see this a bit the same the only difference is that AFAIK, Sam is not being supernaturally influenced...unless we consider the lure of doing spells to be something Sam is drawn to. Which would kind of be in character for Sam because of that power thing. Sam is using it as a means to an end just like Dean decided to use the FB as a means to an end with horrible unintended consequences on his part.

 

Sam knows that Dean will insist he not waste his time and he assumes that Dean would be really upset to think that Sam is allying with a witch since Dean despises witches. So I think Sam is somewhat ashamed of his activities too as Dean was.

 

I think the difference with the perception that Dean was being creepy throughout this episode is because it was framed around Dean taking out the vamps nest with glee and satisfaction. 

 

I didn't see that as a marker of Dean going off the rails or peeks of demon!Dean because Dean has always taken joy out of killing vamps...and he's gone after nests alone and was set up to go after a vamps nest alone by Soulless Sam.

 

What did make me creeped out was when he was side-eyeing Sam in that demon!Dean way in the car with Sam. And again in the house when he said "What's in the basement".  There was a shift to this place of "don't fuck with me" that was more scary than the vamp slaughter, which coupled with the car scene, did creep me out.

Edited April 24, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I think the difference with the perception that Dean was being creepy throughout IMO is because it was framed around Dean taking out the vamps nest. Of course I'm not entirely sure why that is being considered a marker of Dean being demon!Dean because Dean has always taken joy out of killing vamps...and he's gone after nests alone and was set up to go after a vamps nest alone by Soulless Sam.

 

Well, I used the word unsettling rather than creepy. I in no way found Dean creepy, as in wrong or bad, but I found it unsettling in how he was unlike Dean in his aloofness about just about everything. For me, it had nothing to do with Dean taking out nest by himself (although I do have a certain annoyance the show keeps showing us how many vampires apparently exist everywhere, but were almost extinct only a couple years ago, but whatever). I was less unsettled by Dean in the vamp nest than I was him in other places of this episode. And, I have never thought Demon Dean has been lurking nor do I now, I think what's going on with Dean right now is very different.

 

Personally, I'm glad to see Dean as unsettlingly not himself right now, I've been waiting for signs of this ever since he killed Cain.

[catrox14]

I feel like we are having some cross talk and conflating things. DittyDotDot, I wasn't addressing my entire comment to you specifically other than the first part about the Sam vs Dean thing.  Sorry for not making that more clear

 

I think unsettling vs creepy is in in the eye of the beerholder. :). 

 

although I do have a certain annoyance the show keeps showing us how many vampires apparently exist everywhere, but were almost extinct only a couple years ago, but whatever

 

My fanwank on the vampire extinction was that the hunter community was glamoured into believing they were almost extinct. And that the Leviathans knew all along they were not extinct but an endangered species.  I got nuthin....

[DittyDotDot]

I understood only the first part was to me and the rest wasn't to me personally. I just was responding to something else in your post and posting my own thoughts on the subject--which is what I thought we did around here. Sorry if I implied something different.

[catrox14]

I understood only the first part was to me and the rest wasn't to me personally. I just was responding to something else in your post and posting my own thoughts on the subject--which is what I thought we did around here. Sorry if I implied something different.

I thought I had not been clear with my intention of my post so I wanted to clear it up. I'm sorry if you thought I was telling you in some way to not comment. I would never presume to say that nor was that my ntention. Sorry if my trying to clarify my thoughts made things worse.

[catrox14]

Great little behind the scenes Tweet from Ruth Connell about the s end were she boops Dean on the nose. Jensen took a nip at her finger on one take and scared the crap out of Ruth.

So speaking of that boop. So if Rowena was all in Sam's head was that Sam hallucinating bopping Dean like he did in s7? Or was that Dean hallucinating Rowena. And if so why was he hallucinating Rowena?

[Linderhill]

 

Dean decided to use the FB as a means to an end with horrible unintended consequences on his part.

on another thought entirely, when I first read this sentence I read FB as Facebook and was immensely amused. 

[raytch]

I just saw the last 3 episodes back to back. Have been a little out of the loop lately.

 

Episode 19 was so good. I love how the show is doing so many call backs this season and returning to old storylines. Claire's for example, even though it hasn't been my favorite, but it's the kind of stuff you can only do after 10 seasons because there's enough history to go back to.

Benny and Dean are great together.

 

Rowena is growing on me, weirdly enough. They dialed her down a notch, and I'm glad that she's no longer with Crowley doing her stupid schemes.

I'm confused about where Sam kept her a prisoner. Was it in the MoL lair (some secret compartment) or a totally different new place?

Also, will those handcuffs keep her? She's a pretty powerful witch so unless those handcuffs can stop her from doing magic I can't imagine they'll keep her tied up for long.

 

Love Sam and how he's handling things.

I didn't catch on Dean being creepy. He was definitely on a murder high after killing those vamps solo, but I didn't read too much into the car scene.

 

I just love how meta this season is. They're no longer fighting 'monsters at the end of the book', they're mostly just struggling with themselves and trying to make it out alive.

 

I wonder if Metatron will come back before next season? They seem to be focusing on the MoC till the end of the season and since he didn't have any useful info about it, it would kind of make sense to leave him be for now and come back later next year.

[Omegamom]

Dean was just...off...the whole episode, except for when he had to rescue Sam, which was all normal Dean. Yes, he's always been willing to take on vamps, but not with such...glee. And the scene in the car was a direct callback to demon!Dean in the car with Lester. It was very subtle, and wouldn't bother someone dropping into the show brand new, but it was just...off. And Sam's responses around him were nervous and gun-shy. Kind of like an antelope around a predator. It's just that Dean is giving off predatory vibes.

If the box uses people's unconscious or subconscious thoughts to create hallucinations to lure them to suicide, why was Sam hallucinating Rowena being all helpful and semi-seductive? Is he secretly attracted to her? He has that thing for women on the dark side. ;-)

[bethy]

So speaking of that boop. So if Rowena was all in Sam's head was that Sam hallucinating bopping Dean like he did in s7? Or was that Dean hallucinating Rowena. And if so why was he hallucinating Rowena?

I think that must have been Sam. Dean was in his own hallucination of Purgatory then, wasn't he? Which makes that little boop even cuter to me.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I read all of the Rowena stuff in the house as Sam's hallucination...which kinda makes Rowena's glee at tying Dean up even funnier when you think about it. ;)

[catrox14]

I think I'm even more confused now. LOL. I'm gonna have to give this another rewatch

[AwesomO4000]

If the box uses people's unconscious or subconscious thoughts to create hallucinations to lure them to suicide, why was Sam hallucinating Rowena being all helpful and semi-seductive? Is he secretly attracted to her? He has that thing for women on the dark side. ;-)

 

Except Rowena wasn't being all that helpful in that she was "helping" Sam to bleed himself to death. As for it being seductive, poor Sam generally has his relationships and sex all tangled up with death. Often the women he sleeps with either die or are trying to kill him. * And Sam being a bit kinky that way was established with his dream about Bella - heh in retrospect, maybe that Bella dream wasn't as out of character as I'd thought.

 

* (Amelia doesn't fit the pattern, but I tend to want to forget about her - she "killed" Sam for me in a different way.)

[SueB]

Dean was just...off...the whole episode, except for when he had to rescue Sam, which was all normal Dean. Yes, he's always been willing to take on vamps, but not with such...glee. And the scene in the car was a direct callback to demon!Dean in the car with Lester. It was very subtle, and wouldn't bother someone dropping into the show brand new, but it was just...off. And Sam's responses around him were nervous and gun-shy. Kind of like an antelope around a predator. It's just that Dean is giving off predatory vibes.

If the box uses people's unconscious or subconscious thoughts to create hallucinations to lure them to suicide, why was Sam hallucinating Rowena being all helpful and semi-seductive? Is he secretly attracted to her? He has that thing for women on the dark side. ;-)

YES.  The predatory vibe.  He didn't mean to. And Sam was just panicked about him knowing what he was really doing.  But Dean is freaking dangerous.  And I have to think Sam is terrified he's going to have to put him down somehow. 

 

And YES! I love that Rowena was a hallucination because it was so funny.  Then again, this is where Crowley gets some of his playfulness.  And he had the diner and the phone conversation w/ Rowena so he already knows she uses sexual innuendo and other Crowley-like persuasion techniques.  Favorite bits: the little dance, the nose bop, and the admiration of the Baroque nature of the box. 

[DittyDotDot]

If the box uses people's unconscious or subconscious thoughts to create hallucinations to lure them to suicide, why was Sam hallucinating Rowena being all helpful and semi-seductive? Is he secretly attracted to her? He has that thing for women on the dark side. ;-)

 

I think it's because this is how Sam thinks Rowena would act, not because he's attracted to he necessarily--although, maybe he is, she is cute as a button. I imagine Sam thinks Rowena is just a scheming woman who uses her sexuality to get what she wants, I mean, she is Crowley's mother after all. ;)

[RileyMay]

- WHERE are Cas & Charlie? Not even an "explainer"?  Dean needs a freaking babysitter right now.

 

I couldn't work out how much time had passed between the last ep and this. One minute they're at the bunker then they're gone again. Why?

Dean taking out the nest to "take the edge off" sorta came out of nowhere after showing that he'd been doing ok with it so far.

 

I certainly hope Dean is suspicious. Please don't be dumb, Dean.

He has to be suspicious. With what happened in the house and then there have been times in the past few eps where he's walked in to a room whilst Sam's been on the phone to Cas and Sam has either changed the subject quickly or pretended it's a wrong number and you can see Dean noticing but not commenting on it. He looked really suspicious when they found the book when they got the box/safe open.

Edited April 24, 2015 by RileyMay

[Triceratops]

I want to see Dean's s9 scruff and demon!Dean hair  together on Dean.. I would just die right there #BringBackDeanScruff

 

Well I guess hair talk is the kicker to get this longtime lurker to post. I fully support #BringBackDeanScruff with the late season 8 hair length in front. Is there a thread for hair?

 

To be on topic, I liked this episode enough to give it a rewatch. I loved the guys admitting their fears and denial, at least to themselves. The only gripe I had was that the solution to open the box felt very lazy. Sam nearly bleeding out isn't really exciting, and has been done before. And with all the hype with this box being so technically advanced I was expecting some sort of puzzle. I guess the cleverness was used up on the Rowena hallucination. It would've at least been nice if the magic was different than put stuff in a bowl.

 

Is 6 really Dean's best vampire kill count? I would've guessed that nest from season 6 had a bunch more. Still really bad ass!

[SueB]

I support your commitment to all thing "hair" Triceratops.

I'm going to guess he doesn't 'count' when he was a vampire.

[AwesomO4000]

Is 6 really Dean's best vampire kill count? I would've guessed that nest from season 6 had a bunch more. Still really bad ass!

 

Maybe as regular Dean? He took out the vamp nest in season 6 while being vamped up, so he had vamp strength while doing it... Or what SueB said.

[catrox14]

That s6 vamp nest had to have been at least 10.

I have a spec about that box and Dean mixing his blood into the mix that I'll put in the spec thread.

Edited April 25, 2015 by catrox14

[xander874]

Favorite line for me was Rowena to Sam: "We had a deal, giant!"

I love her.

[dr pepper]

I've said before that Rowena is the new Endora. This episode she really stepped up the eyeliner.

[Julia]

I've said before that Rowena is the new Endora. This episode she really stepped up the eyeliner.

Thank you. And the dead white makeup / diagonal slash of blush combo.

[mertensia]

Well how many did Dean take out in that nest when he was helping Benny? That was more than 6 wasn't it?

The first part of the episode was off in an interestingly disconcerting way.

Oh Magnus what a dangerous weasel you were. Dean should have killed you more slowly.

[Jediknight]

Loved seeing Benny again, even if he wasn't real.  Now since they've had Dean say he wants to get Benny out of Purgatory, he needs to get to Purgatory and save his vampire brother from another mother.

 

So since we've seen Benny again, that means we'll get about another 5 appearances from Bobby before seeing another fallen recurring character.

[SueB]

Picking over the bones again after reading several reviews.  I'll try to credit the reviews as I go but if I miss something, my apologies.  

 

What does Dean suspect?  Listening to the Women of Letter's Podcast (@Superwiki and @SweetOnDean) really made me rethink what was going on.  I really was creeped out by the way Dean looked in the car.  So I presumed he was toying with Sam.  But the WoL made a good case that Dean's pretty desperate to keep Sam around (sorry Aeryn!) and so he's presuming that that Sam went off to "teach him a lesson".  Dean's apology, request to participate, and UBER-honest Dean really fit the idea that Dean is not connecting the dots yet.  He SEES the codex (ancient handwritten tome on parchment) but he doesn't know it's a codec (decryptor for the Book of the Damned). But that's two ancient books in two weeks.  And his hallucination clues us in that Dean knows Sam is not going to be "okay" if he has to kill Dean.  So, if Dean was not playing Sam in that scene, then he was just sincerely showing up to get in on the action and to make sure Sam knew that he understood running off was not reasonable.  So...why did he look creepy?  Cause he looked creepy to me.  I'm going to go with Dean is just kinda off right now and he was trying to keep things light but the veneer is wearing off.  And Sam's guilty reaction doubled the effect. In short, I'm thinking the WoL were right and Dean is too busy trying to keep his shit together that he's not picking up on the Sam clues.

 

The point of the hallucinations. Although Dean gave the "we're better together than apart" Afterschool Special moral to the story, I really like @farawayeyes review on Winchester Family Business regarding what the hallucinations accomplished.  More than reminding them that they are better together, the hallucinations did a good job of making the brothers face the problems with the rationalizations they are using to justify how they are making it thru the day.  Dean had to own up to the fact that his backup plan (Cas and Sam taking him out) really sucks.  He also knows taking himself out isn't an option.  So NOW what is he going to do?  Is he going to take a new tack on 'taking off the edge'? Is he going to run away to raise bees? He may not know WHAT to do but I think the hallucination did a good job telling him his plan doesn't really work.  Sam was forced to deal with the moral consequences of his 'save Dean no matter what the consequences' plan.  That Suzie died was not really a surprise, I think, for Sam.  At least he's not so far gone that he didn't at least experience the hallucination in the first place.  But I'd say the ease with with THAT hallucination was dispatched may show that this is not that huge of a speed bump for him.  @farawayeyes also pointed out that he almost died because he had zero problem bleeding out for Dean. But of course that's stupid because being dead will not fix Dean.  So perhaps it'll cause him to draw some boundaries in his "consequences later" approach.  For example, he may rule out options that result in his own death before Dean is unambiguously cured.  I agree with these thoughts but it also caused me to think about each of the hallucinations a bit more:

- Dean's hallucination of Purgatory as the perfect place may result in him trying to get there again. Sucky solution but better than Demon!Dean.  He'd need to organize that -- I'm not sure he'll go there.  

- Sam's hallucination of Rowena coming in and making the hallucination go "poof" makes me think he's really attracted to the magic and ignoring the downside. And he didn't learn anything to make him leary of the downside if you know what you're doing.  And that's Sam's weakness. He IS smarter than most.  Like most people with intellectual pride, he may not see how someone else would outwit him with evil consequences.  It's an illusion IMO because it presumes smarties like Magnus are his opponents.  But whack jobs get a hold of magic too.  And these people don't think in a way Sam would think. I think he's vulnerable to attack by the non-logical thinker and he's blind to this threat.  So if the Book of the Dead was written by a whack job (hello, pages of SKIN), the consequences may not be logical.

 

Other bits:

- I forgot to mention how great I thought Jared was doing in terms of showing Sam in "compartmentalizing" mode.  He has zero f*cks to give about killing Crowley. I loved how Jared played that.  And he trapped Rowena without hesitation.  But...how's that going to work out for him?  When you let a caged dangerous creature off the leash... they bite.  If Rowena believes he'll kill her and never let her go... well, what motivates her to cooperate or be remotely honest.  So trapping Rowena is smart but it lacks an end game.  

- I'm totally loving "honest Dean".  I think the WoL nailed it -- this is Dean's only play.  He learned last year that being honest with Sammy is essential to keeping Sam in his court.  If Dean ends up keeping that up, not as a survival mechanism but as a better way of just operating -- that would be kinda awesome.

- I think the MoL history and mission has the potential for the best spin-off idea yet.

- I LOVED that a Leviathan greeted Dean in Purgatory.  They are a difficult monster to keep in the Supernatural world but perfect for a reminder of their existence in Purgatory. 

[catrox14]

ooops..wrong thread

Edited April 28, 2015 by catrox14

[bethy]

I absolutely loved Sam's matter-of-fact agreement to kill Crowley. I forget sometimes how much reason Sam has to hate Crowley. And given Crowley's role in Dean's having the Mark and being a demon earlier in the season, Sam's "Oh I'll kill him. Next." was perfect.

Edited April 28, 2015 by bethy