Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Camera One]

I don't either, but I blame the writers entirely.  Especially when they made sure to include scenes with Regina missing Henry in both "New York Serenade" and "Witch Hunt".  

Edited July 6, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The biggest thing that they chose not to address re: Emma wanting to go back to New York is the reason she was there in the first place. As Regina said in "Going Home", Storybrooke doesn't belong there and neither do any of them. When the next crisis comes and they have to destroy this latest curse and send everyone home, where are Emma and Henry going to be? Stuck right back with losing their family and memories again. For Emma who has lost a family three times now, that's a powerful motivator to reject it all before the inevitable pain hits her again. Emma's messed up and she knows it, but she can work to maintain control of her life and try to keep the pain out. She couldn't do that as a baby or as a three year old and she had no choice as an adult when Pan cast his new curse, but now she knows what can happen and going to New York allows her to make the decision not to have family because in her experience, it's inevitable she'll lose it all again anyway. It's a lot like Logan's reasons for one of the many Logan/Veronica break-ups in Veronica Mars, Emma can leave and experience a tough but survivable pain now or she can wait and deal with unbearable pain later. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

I would have been okay if they had all just talked about it, even if Emma had left with Henry saying they would visit regularly. Hook would gladly go with them to New York and could find a job while he and Emma were testing the waters of a relationship.

[KingOfHearts]

When the next crisis comes and they have to destroy this latest curse and send everyone home, where are Emma and Henry going to be? 

The decision is going to have to eventually come down to moving to the Enchanted Forest or not. They can probably organize some escape plan now if a Pan's Curse scenario were to happen again. At least get a couple of memory potions brewed from Rumple or Blue.

 

She can't really bring Henry back to New York with her now that he has his memories back. Sure she could legally, but I doubt Henry would want to be taken away from his hometown, mother and grandparents to live a normal life in NY. She'd kick the hornet's nest with Regina, and we all know that wouldn't end well. If she ever leaves Storybrooke, it's just her and the pirate. She really can't go without a very sticky situation.

 

I would have been okay if they had all just talked about it, even if Emma had left with Henry saying they would visit regularly. Hook would gladly go with them to New York and could find a job while he and Emma were testing the waters of a relationship.

 

This. The fact Emma didn't even entertain that thought showed she was just trying to run away from it completely.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Looking forward to seeing what kind of contriviance they come up with for the next curse.  If Henry can't go with everyone because he was born in the world without magic, then neither can baby do-over.  Emma should just open some sort of refuge for the kids born in our world to fairytale characters.  Whatever happened to Ashley's daughter?  Was she also found on the side of the road when Pan's curse hit?

 

Emma would have her hands full with those children and babies.  I mean really, they should go back to harvesting the beans so that mothers can jump realm to give birth and then come back.

I would have been okay if they had all just talked about it, even if Emma had left with Henry saying they would visit regularly. Hook would gladly go with them to New York and could find a job while he and Emma were testing the waters of a relationship.

 

I wonder if push came to shove and she really decided to go back, if he wouldn't just have said he would go with her.  He can work on a salvage boat, I'm sure he knows where all the sunken ships with treasure mind you are.

[Rumsy4]

I believe babies concieved in the Enchanted Forest can go back. So, we are still left with plot-device Henry, unless other people in Storybrooke start making babies. Most of the newest arrivals would be unware of the birth control opportunities available in this Realm. ;-) Since Emma is not the savior of the second curse, would she be able to escape, or will she be sucked back with the rest?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Oh a loophole?  They suck!

[FormerMod-a1]

The bigger problem with Henry was not he was born here, it's that reversing Regina's curse would erase all memories of Storeybrooke and since Henry live nearly all his life here, he would have ended up with no memories whatsoever.  

[scarynikki12]

Whatever happened to Ashley's daughter?  Was she also found on the side of the road when Pan's curse hit?

I know that the babies conceived in the Enchanted Forest would return but I'd love for them to reverse their own rule and explore something like this.  It would really hit home with Emma, allow her to be a bail bondslady, keep things related to Storeybrooke, and could all be blamed on Pan since Regina was merely trying to save everyone.  It would also take Emma away from the town for a bit (maybe a few episodes) which could put off the reveal that Elsa isn't the villain of 4A (as I can see her and Emma bonding).  It won't happen but it would be nice.

[Shanna Marie]

She just kept saying "life in New York was good" over and over. Then in the finale, we're told it's because she missed New York and that "home is the place you miss".

My impression was that she wasn't running to New York because she missed it and therefore it was home, but rather that she was running from Storybrooke, with New York as a convenient destination (since she has an apartment there), to see if she missed Storybrooke as a way of figuring out if it was home. She never really said anything about missing New York itself. She was contrasting the life she had there with life in Storybrooke, and as Hook kept reminding her, she was a different person there because her life there was based on fake memories.

 

Since it wasn't about New York, then things like going for visits weren't really factors. It wasn't that she really wanted to live in New York. It was that she wanted to see how she felt about Storybrooke when she was away from it because that was the only way she knew to be able to tell if she'd found home (because knocking her up and abandoning her apparently wasn't enough for Neal when it came to screwing up her worldview). The fallacy of Neal's definition of home is that if you only know what it is when you've lost it and you miss it, then there's a big chance you'll never have home except in your rear-view mirror. Emma might have made it to New York, realized she missed Storybrooke, and been able to head back, but there's always the chance that something could have happened to it in the meantime, and then she'd have had to continue just missing it.

[Serena]

If you want to be skeeved out, here's a gifset of Jennifer 11 years ago, aka that's what Emma would have looked like when she got pregnant and went to prison. JMO wearing a ponytail and glasses doesn't really make the same impression. I think if they had gotten an actual 17 year old to play her, the reaction would have been WAY different.

[retrograde]

Even without Emma looking like an actual 17 year old, I for one found "Tallahassee"-era Neal in that era totally skeevy -- probably because he actually looked quite a lot like many Portland drifter types I have known (though he could have done with a neck tattoo and a dog on a rope). I swear I could smell his greasy hair through the screen. 

[KAOS Agent]

Having a 24 year old man attracted to a homeless 17 year old is a big problem, but at least with JMo playing the role, I can pretend that Neal thought she was much older than she really was. At the time, I was more disturbed by how old Neal appeared in "Tallahassee''. They should have at least dyed the grey out of his hair.

[Shanna Marie]

At the time, I was more disturbed by how old Neal appeared in "Tallahassee''. They should have at least dyed the grey out of his hair.

Yeah, it's weird that this was the one present-day character they made no effort to change for the flashback. Neal 11 (or more) years earlier wasn't the slightest bit different from present-day Neal in either makeup, hair, wardrobe or acting. With Emma, although she doesn't look 17, she still was different enough to believe she was meant to be younger.

[Mari]

I get that the Emma apologist's will justify all her actions, and fall all over themselves to excuse her behavior, but I have to say that her actions in the finale and the way she denied Henry the chance to reunite with his family for most of season 3 seems to be a shift by the writers to change Emma. I think they needed to drag her down a bit to her boyfriend's level. I am curious if Marian tries to go after Regina or anyone else, if Emma would hold herself accountable. Anything Marian does going forward will fall on Emma's shoulders. Do you think we will get anymore flashbacks to the EF in Season 4, prior to the time jump? If so do you think it will be the missing year or the earlier stories?

What did Emma do that was so wrong? 

 

She didn't keep Henry from his family--and made a point of reintroducing him to Regina, when he didn't remember Regina.  As for the Neal thing, there wasn't a whole lot of time for them to track Henry down and explain to Henry the whole situation. 

 

Even if they had, Henry likely wouldn't have believed it--it would have wasted a lot of time, that they didn't think they had, because they were trying to track down Rumple.  They didn't know Neal was going to die first--how do you think they should have handled the situation, if the way they did was not correct?

 

What actions do you think Emma needs apologizing and excusing for?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Mari

[snarkastic]

What did Emma do that was so wrong? 

 

She didn't keep Henry from his family--and made a point of reintroducing him to Regina, when he didn't remember Regina.  As for the Neal thing, there wasn't a whole lot of time for them to track Henry down and explain to Henry the whole situation. 

 

Even if they had, Henry likely wouldn't have believed it--it would have wasted a lot of time, that they didn't think they had, because they were trying to track down Rumple.  They didn't know Neal was going to die first--how do you think they should have handled the situation, if the way they did was not correct?

 

What actions do you think Emma needs apologizing and excusing for?

I think Rockybeach is referring to wanting to take him back to New York? I still get a kick out of Emma saves a life, she must apologize, Regina kills lots of people, no regrets. (I'm only using Regina as my example because the whole argument is about the two of them, I don't actually HATE Regina)

 

Somewhat related, is anyone here a Swan Queener here? I generally don't cross paths with any but I want to know what they feel about the Emma saving Marion's life situation. Are they mad at Emma for ruining Regina's happiness? Or are they saying see? She wants her for herself.

[Mari]

I think Rockybeach is referring to wanting to take him back to New York? I still get a kick out of Emma saves a life, she must apologize, Regina kills lots of people, no regrets. (I'm only using Regina as my example because the whole argument is about the two of them, I don't actually HATE Regina)

 

Somewhat related, is anyone here a Swan Queener here? I generally don't cross paths with any but I want to know what they feel about the Emma saving Marion's life situation. Are they mad at Emma for ruining Regina's happiness? Or are they saying see? She wants her for herself.

Really?  Huh.  I wondered, but didn't see why Emma wanting to move back to New York was such a horrible thing.  (Though I will admit the constantly saying it got kind of annoying.)

 

Sorry, but no info on the Swan Queen front.

[KAOS Agent]

Emma takes the brunt of anger from a bunch of different fandoms. I think it's because she's the real world character they use to ground the story, so people are able to associate themselves with her and place their beliefs on how they would react on Emma without actually examining the idea that Emma is not them and not a "normal" person and is in fact very damaged and reacts accordingly. Thus, it becomes a constant barrage of "That bitch!" whenever Emma does something that's completely in character that hurts a particular rabid fandom's woobie. (Let me be clear, I am applying this to the very vocal, very rabid sections of OUAT fandom).

 

To use a not so controversial example of this reaction, let's take Emma and Snowing. We know Emma was a little girl who just wanted a home and parents and never got that. Now she's got Snow White & Prince Charming. How awesome is that?! Emma should be doing cartwheels and giving hugs and kisses! Her mommy and daddy love her so much! But wait. Emma is not reacting that way. That bitch! Why isn't she happy about it? Can't she see that she's gotten everything she ever wanted? How dare she treat Snow & David that way! She needs to just get over herself. It's all her fault that relationship isn't working well. Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit here, but this is often the reaction Emma gets about all of her relationships (and given the way Emma ended the finale, seemingly how the writers see Emma & her parents as well). There is rarely an analysis that this is exactly how a person with Emma's background would react and that her issues make sense. She isn't trying to hurt another person, she's trying to protect herself and certain actions by other characters that reinforce her issues are only going to cause her to dig in deeper.

 

Unfortunately, people project onto Emma because she is not a fairy tale character. There is even some truth in the idea that Emma doesn't get too much backstory because she needs to be less defined so as to make her as accessible as possible for viewer association. But viewer projections are almost always what that individual wants. If you're a Swan Queener, Emma's a bitch for treating Regina badly, Hook fans get upset when Emma says something that hurts him and won't just admit her undying love, Neal fans don't understand why Emma can't just kiss and make up with him. It's almost always about the other character not getting what they want. It's never about Emma getting what she wants and deserves. Or recognizing that the other people in her life might need to work to help her build a healthy and equal relationship with them. Emma takes the blame when she does something "wrong" but rarely gets any recognition when she does something "right" (see: saving Marian & reuniting a family vs putting up a roadblock to Outlaw Queen).  

[Rumsy4]

Emma takes the brunt of anger from a bunch of different fandoms. I think it's because she's the real world character they use to ground the story, so people are able to associate themselves with her and place their beliefs on how they would react on Emma without actually examining the idea that Emma is not them and not a "normal" person and is in fact very damaged and reacts accordingly.... Emma takes the blame when she does something "wrong" but rarely gets any recognition when she does something "right" (see: saving Marian & reuniting a family vs putting up a roadblock to Outlaw Queen).  

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but I see the problem as much more fundamental--they haven't fleshed out Emma's backstory and inner-workings as well as some of the other characters such as Regina or Snowing. Several minor characters have had more backstory episodes than Emma. In three seasons, Emma has had only one complete flashback episode. That, combined with the writers' complete disinclination to properly address character and relationship issues through conversations, really hurts how Emma is perceived. 

 

The writers are also bent on portraying normal flaws of people as "evil", and real evil as "misunderstood". There is no recovering from that kind of bias, IMO.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Dani-Ellie]

It's never about Emma getting what she wants and deserves.

 

This is kind of my problem with Swan Queen in general. For the most part, I feel like the appeal is seeing the savior save the Evil Queen. Coming at a shipping perspective as an Emma fan, though, I want to see someone save the savior. I want Emma to get just as much out of the relationship as the other person, and I'm sorry, but I don't see her finding that with the woman who's tried to kill her multiple times for simply existing.

 

 

 

Emma takes the blame when she does something "wrong" but rarely gets any recognition when she does something "right" (see: saving Marian & reuniting a family vs putting up a roadblock to Outlaw Queen).

 

Yeah, I still don't and never will understand why Emma saving an innocent woman's life was such a horrible, awful decision. It may have resulted in some heartbreak but it also resulted in a husband reuniting with the wife who was stolen from him and a little boy reuniting with the mother he thought he'd lost. Roland asking, "Mama?" and Marian gathering him in her arms will always be a wonderful, wonderful thing, in my eyes. I don't really care that Regina's feelings were hurt; if she hadn't imprisoned Marian or if she'd gone into the tavern when Tink told her to, none of this would have happened. I don't think the consequences of Regina's decisions should be on Emma, nor do I think saving a life should be seen as less moral than accidentally potentially breaking up a week-long relationship.

 

This is as much a fault of the show as anything else, though. The show didn't allow anyone to pat Emma on the back for reuniting a family before the Oh Poor Regina took hold. Regina was allowed the last word, and Emma was made to feel guilty for saving a woman's life. That's some pretty jacked-up morality there, and it's the show's bias.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, I still don't and never will understand why Emma saving an innocent woman's life was such a horrible, awful decision.

Regina herself didn't have a problem with it until it turned out to be her boyfriend's wife. She was all smiles when Emma went to talk to her about the woman she brought back and was quite open to helping her get past the Evil Queen thing. It was only when it turned out to be Marian that Regina was suddenly talking about consequences.

 

The writers are also bent on portraying normal flaws of people as "evil", and real evil as "misunderstood". There is no recovering from that kind of bias, IMO.

That's a major strike the good guys have against them -- having human flaws and not being entirely perfect is portrayed as being just as bad as the evil deeds done by the misunderstood evil people, and it's a bias that hits Emma hardest because she's a "real" person from our world rather than a fairytale character, so she has more human flaws, is less optimistic, doesn't converse with birds and doesn't have that storybook outlook on life. In our world, she's a bit edgy. In their world, she might as well put on a black cape and a hood with leather horns. And yet she is a good guy and a fairytale princess, so it's easy if you're buying into the show's morality to see her in a negative light. Plus, she dared sass Regina in the first season and stands in the way of Regina's ultimate happiness (she ruined Regina's curse, stands in the way of Regina being Henry's only mother, and now she's ruined Regina's romance), and for that she must die in the eyes of the diehard Regina fans.

[FabulousTater]

so it's easy if you're buying into the show's morality to see her in a negative light. Plus, she dared sass Regina in the first season and stands in the way of Regina's ultimate happiness (she ruined Regina's curse, stands in the way of Regina being Henry's only mother, and now she's ruined Regina's romance), and for that she must die in the eyes of the diehard Regina fans.

This is so very disturbing -- making a murdering, raping psychopath cry pretty is all it takes to create a legion of obsequious and fervent followers. I don't know if the writers should be proud of themselves, appalled at themselves, or appalled at how easy it is to manipulate the masses. But I now have a better appreciation on how easy it is to start a cult and I want to start one. About what I don't know, but it's apparently so easy, how could I not. If you can get a meat puppet that can cry pretty you will have an army.... "Welcome, minions of the Tater Cult! Doth not your Queen cry pretty? Yeeees, veeeery pretty. Mwhahahahahaha!!" Edited July 20, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

 "Welcome, minions of the Tater Cult! Doth not your Queen cry pretty? Yeeees, veeeery pretty. Mwhahahahahaha!!"

Are there brownies and coffee ice cream?  Because any cult I'm going to belong to needs to have really good brownies and coffee ice cream.  (Also peppermint mochas.)

 

Also, I'll probably be faking the ritual crying.  I'm not really a crier.

***

On a less jokey note--you're right.  It's not a good thing if that's honestly all it takes to make people overlook everything Regina's done.

 

Personally, I've wondered if it's partially a combination of slightly more casual viewers and there not being an honest moral voice in the story who is allowed to call out the villains when they're villaining.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Mari

[FabulousTater]

Are there brownies and coffee ice cream?  Because any cult I'm going to belong to needs to have really good brownies and coffee ice cream.  (Also peppermint mochas.)

Yes, the Tater Cult welcomes all baked goods and chocolate and decadence in any form. We don't discriminate against food. Eater's choice. Also, all liquid refreshments are welcome. Peppermint mochas, coffee, coffee+whiskey, whisky straight, rum, vodka, they are all magical and equal in the Tater Queen's eyes. 

 

Also, I'll probably be faking the ritual crying.  I'm not really a crier

Quite alright. You don't actually need heartfelt emotions. I mean, if I'm using Woegina as any sort of blueprint I KNOW you don't need a heart. It's my understanding that a dab of mentholatum just under the eyes makes one tear up very nicely. Feelings are not a necessary component of the crying pretty ritual.

Edited July 20, 2014 by FabulousTater

[ShadowFacts]

I want to at least hope that more casual viewers don't see Emma as being in the wrong on the Marian rescue.  It must be the hardcore Regina fandom and those still hoping for Swan Queen who are a little off the mark (in my view) on the moral compass.  I really hope that anyway.  However I do wonder what younger kids make of all of this. 

[FabulousTater]

Personally, I've wondered if it's partially a combination of slightly more casual viewers and there not being an honest moral voice in the story who is allowed to call out the villains when they're villaining.

It's an interesting question.

 

Is it just because the show doesn't have an actual honest moral voice to balance it all out? We rarely get Emma's perspective nor is she allowed to have the last word when it comes to confrontations with Regina, so I suppose that does make a difference. But personally, I don't need someone on the screen telling me right from wrong. I know right from wrong. Mass Murder = Bad. All the things Regina has done? BAD. Heinous, even. No one on the show needs to tell me that. (Though that is what makes me want to pull my hair out when I watch this show. Not one single character is countering all the victim-blaming with common sense! Not. A. Single. One.)

 

But I know I'm not the type to be easily swayed by someone crying pretty about how horrible their life was that it made them do all this evil as if they have no control over their own actions. Especially, when there are others on the show who had it as bad *cough*Emma*cough* (if not worse) and managed not to slaughter an entire village, rape a guy for decades, or send children to their doom. Personal responsibility is a thing. (and if you want to hold Emma accountable for every single slight under the sun then guess freakin' what -- Regina should be held accountable for her bullshit too. Because no one held a gun to Regina's head and made her do any of the heinous things she did.)

 

Like, if the show needs to get a character to sit down and explain to the audience why murder is bad and why Regina should be held accountable (and why Emma and the Charmings are essentially the victims of Regina's psychotic temper tantrums) then really I need to give up on humanity, nevermind the show.

Edited July 20, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

Alas, there was a bunch of "How dare Emma! Boo, Emma! Poor Regina!" comments on the general Once Facebook page, which is full of casual fans.

[Camera One]

I don't think casual fans would even post on the Once Facebook page. I know some casual fans, and they do watch the show and they like it, but we don't have lengthy conversations about the show at all and it's sort of out-of-sight out-of-mind until the few days before the premiere.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I am sad to say that quite a few finale podcasts I listened to were very anti-Emma in regards to her messing up Outlaw Queen by bringing Marian back. None of them are Evil Regals or SQers by any stretch. Not sure what the casual fans who don't even do facebook-level think, but I'm guessing the Woegina Kool Aid has got to have steeped their subconscious mind as well. When it comes to TV Shows, people (including me) let a lot of things slide by that they would never do in real life, and the writing in OUAT is heavily focussed on developing viewer-sympathy towards Regina.

 

S3B has been one big deconstruction of Emma's importance to the Show. It can be hard for people to sympathize with her when her internal thoughts are so hard to discern. That's her personality, but then, this is a TV show, and there needs to be a balance. They waited until the Season Finale to have Emma talk about why she wanted to go back to New York, and had her merely keep harping on New York until then. While I enjoyed the Finale, in itself it was unrelated to the Season as a whole. All the triumphant moments of the Season were given to Rumple and Regina. They also justified Neal's abandonment of Emma, and made it all Emma's fault for pushing away from her parents. They had Henry regret ever bringing Emma to Storybrooke (the ultimate slap in the face), and never addressed that statement again. I feel that A&E don't really treasure Emma as a character. She was the means to an end. Her role is to be the always slightly confuzzled outsider. Their main interest lies in the redemption of the Evil Queen, and it shows.

[Stuffy]

I'm more than a casual fan, and I've never posted on the Once Facebook account. I also don't vote in those stupid online "Who's the best couple/character?" polls. I don't feel I have anything to prove for my favorite character or favorite couples.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Stuffy

[FabulousTater]

All the triumphant moments of the Season were given to Rumple and Regina. They also justified Neal's abandonment of Emma, and made it all Emma's fault for pushing away from her parents. They had Henry regret ever bringing Emma to Storybrooke (the ultimate slap in the face), and never addressed that statement again.

JFC, how I hated all of that. It still makes me want to flip a table when I remember all this BS. 

 

I feel that A&E don't really treasure Emma as a character. She was the means to an end. Her role is to be the always slightly confuzzled outsider. Their main interest lies in the redemption of the Evil Queen, and it shows.

It pains me to say it, but I've come to a similar conclusion. And it makes me sad. 

(The Tater Cult will be convening a meeting shortly to commiserate on this disappointing conclusion. There will be drinking. BYOB. )

[KingOfHearts]

 

They had Henry regret ever bringing Emma to Storybrooke (the ultimate slap in the face)

 

In the S3 finale Emma says "He wasn't bringing me to Storybrooke to break a curse - he was bringing me home!" As sappy as that sounds, I don't find that completely true. Yes he wanted Emma to be his mother for him, but I think breaking the curse was a higher priority to him at the time. It smells of retcon for the sake of emotional drama.

Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I actually don't think Henry wanted Emma to be his mother. To him, Emma was a means to this epic adventure of fairy tales come to life as the final battle between good & evil would begin with her arrival in Storybrooke. Henry was depressed and lonely and looking for some excitement. He wasn't looking for a mother, he was looking for someone to prove his crazy theory about a curse to be true. Emma & Henry didn't even "connect" until after Emma was already in town. That it turned out well for their relationship does not negate the fact that Henry only went after Emma because she was the Saviour and he needed the Saviour to break the curse. 

[retrograde]

In the S3 finale Emma says "He wasn't bringing me to Storybrooke to break a curse - he was bringing me home!" As sappy as that sounds, I don't find that completely true. Yes he wanted Emma to be his mother for him, but I think breaking the curse was a higher priority to him at the time. It smells of retcon for the sake of emotional drama.

I didn't take what she said to mean "Henry intended to bring me home" so much as "In bringing me to Storeybrooke he also brought me home," though that was just my reading of the scene. Regardless, I do agree that on a personal level Henry mostly just wanted to break the curse, but I think even at the time he would have believed he was reuniting Emma with her folks (or vice versa) -- even if he hadn't really thought through the full implications of that in terms of his own relationship with them. And more importantly, I believe that she would believe that, so I don't think it's a retcon. Emma saying something /= the show saying it. She is often an unreliable narrator, I think.

 

Their main interest lies in the redemption of the Evil Queen, and it shows.

 

Today on Twitter, Adam answered a fan's question about how the actual show differed from their original vision, and he responded:

 

some things changed radically.  but some stayed the same.  It was always Emma comes to town as Savior & meets Mayor Regina

 

That was quite telling to me. In season 1, at least, I thought the show was Emma comes to town and discovers her real family and also all the fairytale crap; Regina was one of the villains, but not the lead character. And I'd hazard a guess that that's the show a lot of people thought they were signing on for. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by retrograde

[Dani-Ellie]

It's definitely the show I thought I was signing up for: Emma's own fairy tale. I expected good to triumph over evil and I expected Emma to find and come to terms with her family, which would mean we'd actually get to see the emotional development behind it all, and maybe, just maybe, find her own True Love and live happily ever after. I did not at all sign up for The Tale of the Evil Queen, but I care too much about what happens to Emma to give up. So I just remain hoodwinked.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Aliasscape]

Yeah, but when where did this idea come from came up, from DAY ONE Adam and Eddy have said it was about where could the evil queen succeed, where would she triumph basically, in our world. Ever since that I've been all, oh, so this is a bait and switch. Toss a token hero character but it's about making the evil queen happy.

 

Also I've seen Henry vilified plenty in early seasons 1 and 2 for not appreciating the "woman that raised him" despite that she abused him and everything. But I'm always trying to point out that when Emma wasn't buying into Henry's savior ideas he wanted nothing to do with her. When he began to fear she would get killed for helping him, he avoided her.Even Emma realized, "If I'm not the savior, then what place do I have in this life?" Henry wanted to be saved from his life and save everyone in town first. That it got him an actual loving mother in the process was a bonus. If he just wanted Emma he could have left town with her in 1x21, instead he eats a cursed apple turnover.

 

I don't care about the he was bringing me home stuff. But I absolutely hated the "I never should have broken the curse" stuff Henry was spouting eventually. Congrats Regina, you finally raised the selfish-self-centered kid you always wanted.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Aliasscape

[myril]

from In the Media thread

How he got there. How he found her. How he targeted her. And enough of her life in New York, even if it was in montage form, to explain the constant refrain of "life was good there." From what we saw, she had a boyfriend who turned out to be a flying monkey and a neighbor who was willing to look after Henry. She hasn't had any phone calls from friends wondering how long she's going to stay in Maine. Was her life really all that great? Did she find herself missing things that she didn't know she was missing, feeling a loss she couldn't explain?

 

As much as I would like to know more about Emma's time in New York, I struggle to see it on the show for pacing reasons, for compelling story telling. It would have added another set of flashback, and we already had to sets with the Missing Year in the Enchanted Forest and Zelena's life, partially as well playing in the Enchanted Forest past and in Oz. Add present Storybrooke. Could have been more confusing than helpful. Think there might be  a reason why they give little time markers (although those created more headaches for anyone aware of timeline details). If they had used one long season (22 episodes) for it all, Missing Year in the Enchanted Forest, Emma in New York, Zelena's background story and present time Storybrooke maybe then it could have worked, with a few more filler episode with fairy tale of the week character in between. But will give more about shorter season, or two half seasons creating maybe more problem than benefits in the All Season Thread.

 

Don't think though that it was much about Emma missing New York but more about Emma not connecting with Storybrooke and the people there as home. It was more about Emma not being able to see her and Henry's future there than actually seeing it somewhere else.

 

It could have helped though to understand Emma better if they had done one episode telling more about her and Henry's time in new York, although I have no idea where to put that into the story of season 3B in way that it would have made sense and moved on the story at least somewhat.

 

Emma never had a family, people who cared about her or a home.  Mrs. Darling decided to keep Bae right away even though he was a pre-teen, Emma was returned by her adoptive parents because they were having their own kid.

 

I'm not sure why they made Neal's definition of home so prominent in Emma's life, I don't know if it's intentional and if it is, I hope she moves away from that and finds her own definition of what home is supposed to be.  If it was unintentional, then they're dumb as a box of rocks.  Let's tell every foster child and orphan that you should keep running until you miss the last place you were at. 

 

Making Neal's definition of home kind Emma's definition doesn't sit right with me. It sound so much like "you don't know what you have until you lose it" - and that was not at all the situation Emma was in IMO. Aw foster kid, that was in the system since birth, given up by her first foster parents when she was 3, and as far as I understood it since in and out of families and group homes, had at best a fictional and imagined idea of what a home could feel like. How could she know what she have when she never really had it and has begun to find it? I was no foster child, just had a bit of dysfunctional family, but even I struggled already to define home in a positive way. Jennifer Morrison seems to have done some research on foster kids, maybe they should listen more to her.

 

The only reason I find acceptable for Emma to work with Neal's definition for the moment is that she in fact had no definition herself grounded in real life so far. The time in New York with Henry as family and defining home for her was based on a fake, fake memories, but the year itself still was time lived a different life. And at the same time it was a bit of a fantasy.

 

And they think that all is solved with sending her back in time (another bit of fantasy, story impression though sure was very real for Emma), and in the end make it point that she finally has become someone in the Storybook, which she was before as baby Emma though already.

 

It's a fairy tale, right.

[Dani-Ellie]

The only reason I find acceptable for Emma to work with Neal's definition for the moment is that she in fact had no definition herself grounded in real life so far.

 

I understood it less that Emma and Neal had the same definition of home and more that Neal gave her that definition and she believed him because, as you said, she had no definition of her own. And once that definition was in her head, it kind of became a self-fulfilling prophecy. When the very definition of something means she has to leave it to figure out what she had, Emma's running away was inevitable. It was a necessary step because Neal told her that she wouldn't know what she had until it was gone.

 

After coming back to Storybrooke, the peace she had found with Henry was shattered. All she saw in Storybrooke was a place she didn't belong full of people she didn't have anything in common with, and she longed for the place where she felt she was happiest, where she and Henry were a family and they were doing all right and had time to just hang out together. She finally had somewhere she missed.

 

Now, I do think that had the story allowed her to go back to New York, she would have found she missed Storybrooke more and thus found home in Storybrooke anyway. It's just that Emma's definition of home was flawed because she had no frame of reference for it and the guy who gave her that definition was pretty much as screwed up as she was. If someone had told her that home was wherever you could be with the ones you love, maybe she wouldn't have had to run away to find it.

[Camera One]

Making Neal's definition of home kind Emma's definition doesn't sit right with me. It sound so much like "you don't know what you have until you lose it" - and that was not at all the situation Emma was in IMO.

I think it's also not the situation Bae/Neal was in either. When have we ever seen him "missing" life with Rumple? How about them showing it if they want us to believe it? I know he is hated, but they didn't even try to give Neal development post-Neverland and pre-Tallahassee.

It also makes no sense for Emma because with the missing year, she didn't have *time* to miss her parents and Storybrooke. If all it took was facing the death of her parents, wouldn't she feel the same when she realized Evil Zelena was with Snow at her apartment, or when she thought Charming was going to die with Dreamshade? Or was dancing in a royal ball all it took to "feel" like she belonged in the Enchanted Forest?

This whole Oz concept of There's No Place Like Home was a good one for Emma (and also Snow/Charming, Neal, Granny, etc. returning home to the Enchanted Forest), but they can't just pop it out in the season finale without developing it piece by piece throughout the entire season. There was literally *nothing* about it in 3B except the last episodes, since it was all about Wicked is Better Than Evil and Regina re-discovering her soulmate. They did a half-assed B Plot episode for Emma mastering magic in one day, and a few Romantic Tension with Hook moments, but that was all they gave Emma.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

Emma's bashed for being selfish and wanting to take Henry back to NYC but no one ever brings up the fact that Woegina was selfish in wanting Henry to herself and was all set to kill an entire universe to make that happen. But oh wait, Woegina is redeemed from that she ended up sacrificing herself and got to be the big hero. Emma finally stopped being blind and selfish and got to appreciate her parents and Storybrook.

 

They go out of their way to legitimize Woegina's biggest victim status and also go out of their way to de-legitimize Emma's gripes. Or they don't allow her to gripe about anything at all. And if she isn't bitching about it and crying about it? Well then why should the audience do it for her? Woegina burned Snow to death? Nope didn't happen and didn't matter. No one's bringing that up. Emma doesn't even give a crap about that. Snow "murdering" Cora? Man she sure ruined Woegina's life yet again. Emma ruined Woegina's life by effing up history and bringing back Marian (and Elsa) when everyone and their momma was telling her not to mess with history. Woegina did and will get endless screen time on how sad her life is now. Woegina killed Graham, the first guy that Emma's cared about since Neal? Nope doesn't matter. Emma moved on in 2 seconds so big deal. It's never brought up again.

[Rumsy4]

If her actions affected anyone but Regina, yes, Emma's guilt could be in character. ...If after all this, Emma's reaction is anything more than "I'm sorry, it sucks, but you brought this on yourself and I don't regret saving a life", I call bullshit.

Also, it's not like Regina suffered *that* much. She also had destroyed Emma's budding romance, once upon a time, by KILLING the guy. Did she feel guilt over it? Hell, did she ever apologize?..

I don't think it is OOC for Emma to feel some guilt, but I also think she would get over it right away. At least the Emma pre-season 3B would. But now, I'm not sure. She was quick to think that Eva was at fault over the Zelena-debacle.

I really hope they don't make Emma become a second Snow when it comes to Regina! Snow has always had unresolved guilt over Daniel, so she at least has a reason (though ill-judged), about her Regina-apologism. She also grew up loving her as her step-mother before things went south. Emma ought to have none.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think it is OOC for Emma to feel some guilt, but I also think she would get over it right away.

I agree. Emma inadvertedly ruined someone's relationship, so that's understandable. That's nothing compared to being a Woegina participant. There's a huge difference.

I'd also like to point out that in that scene, Emma and Hook just got back from a huge ordeal. They didn't expect Marian being important at all. Everyone was utterly surprised by Marian's connection - they hadn't even really connected the dots on it yet.

Regina and Emma both had major unknowns, so both their reactions weren't exactly OOC, all things considered. It was all initial reaction stuff, and the scene was cut off before it even finished.

Edited July 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I hate the comparison between what Snow did and what Emma did. The only thing they have in common is that the end result was that Regina was sad. Snow told a secret that ultimately ended with Daniel dead. Even though this was in no way her intention and it's not really her fault, feeling guilt about how her actions led to a man's death makes sense. Emma saved a life. There is no reason to feel guilty. At all. Sorry you didn't get to kill your boyfriend's wife, Regina. Emma can feel bad that it made Regina sad, but no one should ever feel guilt about not letting someone be murdered.

[Souris]

I would up-vote that a million times if I could, KAOS Agent! It makes me so mad the way the show treats these action. I made a little Marge Simpson-growl when Lana referred to Emma's actions as a "mistake" at Comic Con. No. Just no. But that rather told me how the show would present it.

[Dani-Ellie]

Yeah, sorry, show, but saving a woman's life is not a mistake, no matter what undesirable complications may arise from saving that life. I did like that Jen said that it's complicated because she can't apologize for saving a woman's life but at the same time, she didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench into Regina's life. Like, damn straight she shouldn't apologize for saving a woman's life.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

I have entertained the idea that the cute, white, blonde kid didn't get adopted because odd things happened around her. No big displays of magic just little things that put people off.

 

One of the likely reasons Emma wasn't adopted was because of the way she was found.  She was found, wrapped in a handmade blanket, with her name on in, on the side of the road. 

 

Before she could be adopted, they would have to do an investigation to find out if this was foul play or child abandonment before they could terminate parental rights and make Emma adoptable.  The investigation itself could take quite a long time, simply because they would not find anything, and would not believe that was possible.

 

After a baby is out of infant status and working his/her way to toddler, it starts to get harder to find a permanent family.  The older you get, the harder it gets.

 

I can completely buy that that initial family gave Emma back because of the new baby and accidental magic combo.  But by that time, Emma was three years old.  Three year olds are old enough that they're much less likely to be adopted.

[ShadowFacts]

Whatever Snow and Emma did regarding Regina's love life, it was unintentional and indirect.  In the case of Daniel, does anybody really think Cora, who we've seen as ruthless to the nth degree, was going to let Regina marry the stable boy?  One way or another, Cora would have made him disappear.  And Regina's own murderous rage put her in the Robin/Marian position she is in now.  No one to blame but herself.  Snow is a doormat for letting herself feel guilty.  Emma better not follow that path.  But she's already too cozy with Regina for my liking.  She should not be so free and easy about letting Henry spend time alone with her.  The woman is a menace.

 

 

[Dani-Ellie]

I can completely buy that that initial family gave Emma back because of the new baby and accidental magic combo.  But by that time, Emma was three years old.  Three year olds are old enough that they're much less likely to be adopted.

 

Plus, in realistic terms, you now have a three-year-old who'd just had her entire world turned upside down. The people she considered Mommy and Daddy had just handed her off to strangers, as far as she was concerned. She would have been scared and confused and hurt, and she wasn't old enough to express those emotions in a healthy way. She would either shut down or she would act out. Either way, you now have an emotionally troubled three-year-old, and once the kids are labeled with that, their chances of being adopted drop even lower, because being a parent to an emotionally troubled child and dealing with that kind of fallout is extremely difficult.

[Dani-Ellie]

Not meaning to double-post, but, from the Snow White thread:

 

Now seeing Emma and Snowflake together, that interests me.  I do want her to have a good relationship with her brother.

 

Me too. It's funny; I think if the show ever chose to go this direction, Snowflake could be a wonderful catalyst for Emma to face things about her past. Watching her brother get all kinds of love and cuddles could make her face and deal with all the love and cuddles she never got. She's going to be able to watch her parents be parents to someone else, and it could make her really see what she'd missed out on. And I don't mean this in an "Emma's jealous" kind of way, more like a wistful, "I never had this and I should have" kind of way. It could be an inroad to finally making peace with it ... realizing it first, recognizing it was unfair, and letting herself finally feel everything she's pushed down her whole life.

 

Of course, the show will never go this direction (and if it does, I will buy a hat just to eat it). Even if it does, though, I can still see Emma being a protective and loving big sister, simply because of the pain in her past. We saw how she was with Henry and Ava and Nicholas and even Ashley; she saw these kids with no one looking out for them, no one protecting them, which spurred her to protect them and to fight for them. She wanted to make sure they didn't end up with the lonely, loveless life she had. I can totally see her giving her brother little comforting touches simply because she never had them. I can see her wanting him to know that he matters to people, because she felt she never did. And I can see her wanting to make sure he knows he's loved, because she never was.

[ShadowFacts]

I agree with all you said, Dani-Ellie.  Additional wistfulness could come from the fact that Emma gave up her own baby and missed all of that with Henry.  She never got to show her love for baby and toddler and preschooler Henry, and she might be seeing all of that in little brother.  Love infused with sadness.