Why the Demarcation? - Liv's Love Life

[dohe]

Moved from episode thread

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that an even more effective way to minimalize screentime for interracial romance would be to not have one of the most popular characters on the show pursue one in episode eight of the first season.

ETA Kieyra, I have now. You made my day with that.

If you want a show to pretend it is diverse in terms of romance when it is not, the classic mode is to introduce romances that are little seen for the supporting characters.  That way the show runners can respond to the concerns of the blatant nonsense that the white female lead's non-white male friends are only friends to her while her love interests are all white men.  They get to go hey Ravi is dating a white person when of course we know it is minimal screen time.  It sort of makes it even more offensive. But what can you say about a show that condescends to it's audience with the Lowell character and that Liv/Lowell romance. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by dohe

[editorgrrl]

An even more effective way to minimalize screentime for interracial romance would be to not have one of the most popular characters on the show pursue one in episode eight of the first season.

Ravi will get far more screentime as Liv's friend and colleague than he ever would as her romantic partner. Ravi will be in far more episodes than Lowell.

Also, pursuing a person over whom you are in a position of authority is not romantic.

[Sakura12]

Instead of seeing it as Liv not being attracted to Ravi, maybe Ravi is not attracted to Liv. I'm not attracted to everyone I meet no matter what race they are. 

[enlightenedbum]

It's also kind of gross to think that secondary characters of color can only exist in relation to the white main character and have no inner lives of their own.

[dohe]

It's also kind of gross to think that secondary characters of color can only exist in relation to the white main character and have no inner lives of their own.

That is a good point.  I find it gross too.  Clive and Ravi exist almost solely through Liv's perspective.  Ravi becoming Major's roommate, for the purposes of Liv's connection to Major, and now dating Peyton, almost certainly a lame attempt* to cleverly undermine the rightful criticism that the show runner certainly would have known would arrive - that yet again has a show where POC males are platonic friends to the white female lead who only has white men as romantic leads, shows Ravi as serving more as a prop for Liv's stories than as his own person.  Clive exists almost solely for the purpose of helping Liv catch bad guys.  It is as if he and Ravi do not exist outside her life.  Yet both Blaine and Major are given significant screen time that is not directly connected to Liv.  These two white males exist as characters that are more than as a function to the character of Liv.  What a non-shock! 

 

The same conundrum exists that used to exist with the gay best friend** trope exists here.  On the one hand, you want diversity and representation***.  On the other hand at some point you expect more.  Clive and Ravi seemingly function as props for Liv or for the show runner to act as if the show is not, when it comes down to it, very much pandering to a segment of the audience that is overwhelmingly desiring of white female leads being with cute white men.***

 

However I don't want to get off the subject too much.  While this show's handling of the POC males continues to be a problem, I think it is best to keep it focused specifically on how Liv's love life has a blatant demarcation between POC males and white males. 

 

Anyways bumping this since there seemed to be no real debate on this. 

 

There are questions I am fascinated by.  If the race of the characters was determined during the writing, why did the show decide the two platonic male friends of Liv would be POC while the love interests would be white males?  If race was not predetermined during the writing but it was predetermined that Ravi and Clive would be platonic friends of Liv, did this affect casting?  Did the show change the relationships of Ravi and Clive to Liv upon casting?

 

 

*As my boyfriend brought up weeks ago, Peyton probably exists so Ravi can date her and audiences criticizing the show runner's tendency towards platonic POC male friends/white male love interests for lead white females could be shushed.  As with Veronica and Keith's parents dating, it is a weak response to say the least. 

**A common response when criticism was leveled at the gay best friend coming across as a marginalized character the response was he is lucky he does not have to be in all that romance stuff and just gets funny lines.  This is why the POC males are so much luckier to be pals instead of lovers argument has such a heard this one before feel.

***A paradox is that if iZombie did not have a diverse cast, they would not be open to questions about their treatment of POC males.

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by dohe

[CinnamonCat]

Clive and Ravi exist almost solely through Liv's perspective.

(...)

It is as if he and Ravi do not exist outside her life. 

 

Yet both Blaine and Major are given significant screen time that is not directly connected to Liv.  Both Blaine and Major, white males, exist as characters that are more than as a function to the character of Liv.  What a non-shock!

 

You might have noticed that the show is called iZombie, which suggests it is told from a zombie's perspective. Upon closer inspection, it's obvious that the titular zombie is one Liv Moore, whose story -- and thus the show -- is about her learning to appreciate (un)life, making new friends, and experiencing new things, some of which she never would have gotten a taste (heh) of had she never (un)died. 

 

So, the focus is on Liv and whoever happens to be in her orbit. Sometimes it's her boss, sometimes it's her ex, sometimes it's her colleague, sometimes it's her roommate... You get the picture.

 

Now, in order to make an interesting story, every character should serve a purpose. Clive is there to help Liv's quest for justice, Ravi is there as a friend and bringer of hope, Major is there to represent what she's lost, Blaine's there to fuck shit up. Each character should also have a story of their own, so we have Clive trying to prove himself, Ravi pursuing Peyton and trying to cure his friend, Major getting in over his head, and Blaine fucking shit up. The only reason Major and Blaine's respective stories are shown separately from Liv's, Ravi's and Clive's is that their stories aren't related to Liv via her workplace. And from everything we've been shown (and also general TV rules), it's fairly obvious all those stories will collide by the end of the season.

 

Also, I didn't do the math, but I'm pretty sure Ravi and Clive have more screentime than Blaine or Major. 

[dohe]

CinnamonCat, Major's hunt for what happened to his two friends could easily exist outside Liv's world.  So can his romantic life.  For that matter, Blaine being a bad guy could.  We get sequences where their journey could completely exist without Liv.  However we have seen no existence of Clive or Ravi outside Liv's life that is not viewed from Liv's perspective or connected to Liv's social/romantic life.

 

I have read how awesome it is to be the platonic friend of Liv's - something I doubt would be churned out quite so much if Bradley James was playing Ravi or Clive.  I have read how the in thing is to be the man who the white female lead is not interested in romantically - how apparently these POC male characters are so lucky.  I have not read any responses saying why the blatant demarcation in the casting is not a double standard.  Not one. 

 

Why is this show treating it as if the white female lead's lovers can only be white and the multiple POC males can be no more than friends?  At some point there was casting.  There is no way around that.  Rationalizations that avoid the topic are fine to a point.  But the same rationalizations being used for iZombie that were used on Veronica Mars for why Wallace and Weevil, two POC male characters, are only friends to Veronica Mars as she engages in romance after romance with white men is feeling like a redux that ignores the problem with this double standard.

Edited May 7, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

People can't really answer your questions when they disagree with your entire premise.

 

For example, you ask: Why is this show treating it as if the white female lead's lovers can only be white and the multiple POC males can be no more than friends?

 

And I answer: I don't think the show is doing that. Or, more specifically: I don't think we have seen enough of the show to know that the female lead's lovers can only be white, forever and always.

[CinnamonCat]

CinnamonCat, Major's hunt for what happened to his two friends could easily exist outside Liv's world.  So can his romantic life.  For that matter, Blaine being a bad guy could.  We get sequences where their journey could completely exist without Liv.  However we have seen no existence of Clive or Ravi outside Liv's life that is not viewed from Liv's perspective or connected to Liv's social/romantic life.

 

But their stories will be connected to Liv's story. Or do you genuinely think that  Major's investigation won't affect Liv? That Liv will sit idly by and let Blaine kill marginalized kids? Those stories are bound to interlude. 

 

Frankly, you're putting the show in a lose-lose situation here: if Major served no purpose outside being Liv's ex, everyone would complain about that. If there were no one to remind Liv of what she's lost, we as audience wouldn't be aware that she has lost something, or we'd be told, but not shown. And here we have a reminder of what once was who also serves as a factor in the ongoing story (a rare feat in and of itself), whose main flaw is the fact that he's... white.

 

Let me clarify: we are shown the parts of each character's stories that are relevant to Liv's. Clive and Ravi's relevance is work-related, Major's and Blaine's isn't. That, I believe, is all there is to it.

[dohe]

People can't really answer your questions when they disagree with your entire premise.

 

For example, you ask: Why is this show treating it as if the white female lead's lovers can only be white and the multiple POC males can be no more than friends?

 

And I answer: I don't think the show is doing that. Or, more specifically: I don't think we have seen enough of the show to know that the female lead's lovers can only be white, forever and always.

So you are saying, for the second show by this show runner with a white female lead solving crimes, that the decision for the multiple POC male characters to be platonic friends to the white female lead while her love interests are all white males is a coincidence?  Unless the show was cast by pulling names out a hat that seems doubtful. 

 

We don't get anywhere when we put up with this.  Nowhere at all.  Change occurs due to questioning.  And as long as these double standards play out they should be questioned. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

So you are saying, for the second show by this show runner with a white female lead solving crimes, that the decision for the multiple POC male characters to be platonic friends to the white female lead while her love interests are all white males is a coincidence? 

 

No. I'm saying that we're not even a full season in and we don't know for certain that Liv will only ever date white men.

[GaT]

I'm not sure why people want Liv to date Clive or Ravi, I think that's a terrible idea no matter what color their skin is. All that romance crap is bound to get in the way of the work stuff, & I really don't want to see Liv & either Clive or Ravi sniping at each other over who left the top off the toothpaste. 

[Izeinwinter]

Because those are the male characters the viewers care about?  I mean, you could ship her with Peyton, and I have, ever since the "You are my heart" scene, but this is just a thing that happens with tv shows. The characters who are the focus of the show get shipped. 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

So you are saying, for the second show by this show runner with a white female lead solving crimes, that the decision for the multiple POC male characters to be platonic friends to the white female lead while her love interests are all white males is a coincidence?

It does represent an aspect of real life with a sound scientific basis. People are attracted to those with genetic similarities because the point of reproduction is to create copies of yourself (more or less). That means interracial attractions just aren't as likely, especially for someone in the local majority group (white in this case), since they're simply bumping into more people in the same group than others (minorities by definition).

[Julia]

It seems as if Ravi has no inhibitions about the race of his partner, or about being aggressive if he's interested.

 

It seems possible, then, that he's not macking on Liv because she's not just his direct report, she's a subject in a scientific study he's conducting, and she's a zombie. Or maybe she's just not his type. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Julia

[Chrissytd]

I don't mind the fact that Ravi/Clive aren't romantic interests of Liv. They're her partners in crime, kinda like how Wallace was to Veronica.

 

It seems as if Ravi has no inhibitions about the race of his partner, or about being aggressive if he's interested.

 

It's seems possible, then, that he's not macking on Liv because she's not just his direct report, she's a subject in a scientific study he's conducting, and she's a zombie. Or maybe she's just not his type. 

That's my thinking too. 

[Eneya]

God forbid male platonic friends for female characters who happen to be white. Or black. Or of any colour, because it is always a trope.

I confess, I really am invested in the topic but I have always thought that the show is doing very well on that front, because the characters are complex and diverse as individuals but when analyzed in general, true, there are issues with gay and straight representation and definitely more so with POC. It is simply weird to attack this show in particular in such a way because at least here it makes sense... so far.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think that it's definitely too soon to accuse the show of limiting Liv's romantic choices to white males. She has only had one post-zombie romance with Lowell, and part of her yearns to resume her romance with Major but the sensible part of her knows that she can't without risking exposing him to her existence  as a zombie or even risking him becoming a zombie himself.

 

As far as we've been shown, Liv has decided to limit her romantic interests to other zombies, and she really has only met two that she a) knew were zombies and b) didn't end up having to kill: Blaine and Lowell. They both happen to be white. She had a romance with one, and first Blaine's attitude made a romance with him a longshot, and then her knowledge that he's murdering people made it all but impossible.

 

(Incidentally, zombies of color don't seem to suffer the paleness or blonde-hairedness of white zombies, judging from the few that we've seen -- Lt. Suzuki and several of Blaine's minions).

[dohe]

God forbid male platonic friends for female characters who happen to be white. Or black. Or of any colour, because it is always a trope.

I confess, I really am invested in the topic but I have always thought that the show is doing very well on that front, because the characters are complex and diverse as individuals but when analyzed in general, true, there are issues with gay and straight representation and definitely more so with POC. It is simply weird to attack this show in particular in such a way because at least here it makes sense... so far.

I don't think it makes sense for a show to have a diverse cast and then all but go don't worry the POC men are not a viable romantic interest for the white female lead.  My favorite bit is, probably to play this down, they give two minutes of the season to Ravi falling for the white female lead's roommate.  Maybe next season they will have my personal favorite, the gay best friend whose life is helping the white female lead through her romantic problems. 

 

Still the questions have not been answered.  If the characters relationships with Liv did not change from what was originally written, can the show explain why it specifically cast POC males as the platonic friends and white males as the lovers.  Now just a matter of how long fans will continue going lets wait and see.  I think for Veronica Mars it was 3 years - in which the POC males became minor characters and it was all about a white female lead and the white men she loves.    

Edited June 11, 2015 by dohe

[editorgrrl]

My favorite bit is, probably to play this down, they give two minutes of the season to Ravi falling for the white female lead's roommate. Maybe next season they will have my personal favorite, the gay best friend whose life is helping the white female lead through her romantic problems.

TPTB had Ravi get involved with Peyton because she'll feel betrayed when she learns he knew all along that Liv's a zombie.

Are you saying that because Ravi's a person of color, he should not have dated Liv's roommate? I'm confused.

[dohe]

TPTB had Ravi get involved with Peyton because she'll feel betrayed when she learns he knew all along that Liv's a zombie.

Are you saying that because Ravi's a person of color, he should not have dated Liv's roommate? I'm confused.

It is called tokenism.  It is comical how on a show with multiple POC male characters, the show's lead white female character is only romantically attracted to white men.  While the show is aware much of the audience will go along with this as they did with Veronica Mars, they are certainly aware that others will see a Veronica Mars redux in terms of it's demarcation.  So they give minimal screentime to Ravi dating Peyton as a way to go see we have a POC male dating a white female.  Of course little if any effort is give to this romance which features hardly any interaction between that brief couple.  The show has zero interest in that romance.   

Edited June 11, 2015 by dohe

[Lady Calypso]

I don't think it makes sense for a show to have a diverse cast and then all but go don't worry the POC men are not a viable romantic interest for the white female lead.  My favorite bit is, probably to play this down, they give two minutes of the season to Ravi falling for the white female lead's roommate.  Maybe next season they will have my personal favorite, the gay best friend whose life is helping the white female lead through her romantic problems. 

 

Still the questions have not been answered.  If the characters relationships with Liv did not change from what was originally written, can the show explain why it specifically cast POC males as the platonic friends and white males as the lovers.  Now just a matter of how long fans will continue going lets wait and see.  I think for Veronica Mars it was 3 years - in which the POC males became minor characters and it was all about a white female lead and the white men she loves.    

 

Because the current actors were probably the best for the job? Because it doesn't matter if Major is played by a white male and Ravi is played by a British Indian? It's literally the first season. This cast is pretty diverse, with 2 out of 5 of them POC. Not a lot of shows nowadays sadly have that. We haven't had very many recurring characters either, besides the zombies and Liv's family. I don't want Liv paired up with Ravi or Clive just because they're POC. I think that would be stupid. I also think they work better as colleagues and friends, in Ravi's case. It's not a case of racism; it's a case of 'who was better suited for the role'. I'm just happy to have pretty great actors with good chemistry on this show. Rahul and Rose have great chemistry as friends. I don't want them to ruin that with stupid romance. I actually prefer less romance anyway because it tends to ruin couples if it's forced. 

 

dohe, do you want this show to put Ravi and Liv together JUST to fill an interracial quota? Because I don't get your point at all, and you've been making it since the early episodes. 

[FilmTVGeek80]

 

It is called tokenism.

 

So, wait it's called tokenism if he dates the white best friend, but not if he dates the white lead? And would you have been happier if they had brought on a non-white character for Ravi and/or Clive to date? Or is it paired with Liv or bust? I honestly doubt the writers are quaking in their boots worried about a fraction of the audience complaining that the characters of color aren't immediately paired with the white female lead, so let's throw Ravi at Peyton.

[dohe]

So, wait it's called tokenism if he dates the white best friend, but not if he dates the white lead? And would you have been happier if they had brought on a non-white character for Ravi and/or Clive to date? Or is it paired with Liv or bust? I honestly doubt the writers are quaking in their boots worried about a fraction of the audience complaining that the characters of color aren't immediately paired with the white female lead, so let's throw Ravi at Peyton.

I'd say about two or so minutes of screentime given to an interracial couple is tokenism.  But if you think that is a lot so be it. 

 

Surprisingly, yes show runners are often aware of how some people will point out blatant double standards.  You know like shows with diverse casts where white males are for romance for the white female lead while POC males are depicted as pals for the white female lead. 

 

Anyways that question has still not been answered. If the characters relationships with Liv did not change from what was originally written, can the show explain why it specifically cast POC males as the platonic friends and white males as the lovers?

Edited June 11, 2015 by dohe

[FilmTVGeek80]

 

I'd say about two or so minutes of screentime given to an interracial couple is tokenism.  But if you think that is a lot so be it.

 

I never said it was a lot. I think the actors have good chemistry together and would love to see more of them. But I also realize both of these characters are supporting players, so I don't expect to see a ton of airtime for them. I'm also not on some crusade to get the POC males paired with the lead, otherwise somehow it doesn't count.

[dohe]

I never said it was a lot. I think the actors have good chemistry together and would love to see more of them. But I also realize both of these characters are supporting players, so I don't expect to see a ton of airtime for them. I'm also not on some crusade to get the POC males paired with the lead, otherwise somehow it doesn't count.

It is tokenism and it's purpose is probably to prevent criticism of the evident demarcation for Liv when it comes to white male characters and POC male characters.  It happens.  Show runners aren't stupid.  You are getting a show on the air and then trying to keep it on the air.  That means reaching the biggest audience they can.  But most show runners are aware there are a fraction of viewers out there who notice a game being played just as they are aware that most viewers won't see something.  When things change is when the fraction of viewers turns out be a bigger fraction than they thought. 

 

For each case like Modern Family, when some viewers were thrown by the double standard when it came to affection between the two straight couples compared to the gay male couple, or Skins (US), when some viewers knew that a female character previewed as a lesbian was a cynical attempt to get viewers for a storyline that ended up almost solely focused on the character's desire for a boy, there are cases where the amount of people calling the show out makes little difference.  In the cases of Modern Family and Skins (US), those shows ran with representation which they figured would only receive a fraction of complainers.  They underestimated the change in the climate to double standards and poor representation.  Hopefully the same will occur with casting where POC male charcaters can only be the pals of the white female lead while the white female lead swoons over white male characters.  Looks like we have a way to go.

Edited June 11, 2015 by dohe

[The Cake is a Pie]

What an utterly baffling complaint about THIS show in particular. Liv has only had ONE love interest, and the only significance about the color of his skin was that it was ZOMBIE toned. Major is an ex, and one who was specifically modeled after Liv's previous, cookie-cutter, "boring" life. Even if you count him as a love interest, that still is only two, not a high sample size.

 

Of the show's three core characters (Liv, Ravi, and Clive) two are POC and have significant screen time, and yet because they are not in a romantic relationship with the white female lead they are only tokens? Even though the platonic/professional relationships they have with her are arguably much stronger than the one romantic relationship she has had on screen? At first the complaint was that the men were seen as "asexual" but then one of them gets a romantic storyline and suddenly it's "tokenism"? Which is it then? Are they asexual or are they tokens? Apparently nothing short of a romance with Liv is good enough, nevermind that it's the zombism that is the barrier, not racism.

 

If Lowell had been a POC and they introduced a minority character only to be zombie eye-candy for Liv to sleep with, then kill off, how many cries of tokenism! or exoticism! would there have been? 

 

And why stop at Liv's love life? No outrage at the high percentage of POC who have been Blaine's victims or henchmen? How come there are no female zombies, other than feral, dead Marcy and the murderous, dead Jackie (was that the cougar's name, I can't recall)?

 

This complaint could have been legitimately made about virtually ANY other CW show, except this one.

[fastiller]

Someone enlighten me please by explaining this thread's title.  What's the demarcation?

[Julia]

Of the show's three core characters (Liv, Ravi, and Clive) two are POC and have significant screen time, and yet because they are not in a romantic relationship with the white female lead they are only tokens? 

 

Honestly, if Clive was into her despite the fact that she presents herself to him as kind of a psycho, and Ravi was into her despite the fact that she's kind of rude to him and he's watched her do real damage to his friend (the man who stays around because he loves her) with dishonesty and self-centered decisions and (let's don't forget) she's undead and contagious, I'd be wondering exactly what form of catnip they were trying to say white women are.

 

And really, isn't the conversation about whether she should be with Major or Lowell or Clive or Ravi a bit heterocentric?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Julia

[Cranberry]

Anyways that question has still not been answered. If the characters relationships with Liv did not change from what was originally written, can the show explain why it specifically cast POC males as the platonic friends and white males as the lovers?

 

 

If Lowell had been a POC and they introduced a minority character only to be zombie eye-candy for Liv to sleep with, then kill off, how many cries of tokenism! or exoticism! would there have been? 

 

That's probably why.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Someone enlighten me please by explaining this thread's title.  What's the demarcation?

As I understand it, the threadstarter has as a hypothesis that the show has made a demarcation (i.e. a boundary or a fixed line) such that only white people can date Liv, and the non-white people who are closest to Liv show no interest in dating her, and Liv shows no interest in dating them.

 

In addition to Liv having only had Major and Lowell as love interests thus far, s/he uses as evidence for this theory that Rob Thomas also created Veronica Mars, and the heroine of that show dated three white guys (Duncan, Logan and Piz). The two main people of color in that show (Wallace and Weevil) showed no interest in dating her, and she showed no interest in dating them. 

 

The answer in part seems to be that the demarcation is not about race in the sense of white/black/Indian/Latino/etc. in the case of iZombie, but race in the sense of human/zombie. Liv has understandably sworn off a sexual and romantic relationship with Major, and by extension, anyone human, for fear of spreading the zombie infection. That means that Clive and Ravi are off-limits as dating partners. 

 

Should Clive show interest in Liv, not knowing that she has human-zoned him? I don't see any reason why he should. Should Ravi show interest in Liv, knowing that one night of passion could result in either her eating his brains or turning him into a zombie? It seems like it would be silly for him too. Besides, as has been pointed out, he has had a relationship with Peyton, who at least by appearance is white.

 

Liv has had a single zombie lover, who happens to have been white. 

 

Now in the broader picture, could the show have cast a nonwhite actor as Major or Lowell? Sure, I guess. 

 

I am not sure what difference that makes in the big picture.

 

I don't think that the show is sending any message about people of color being tokens or not being fit to date white people or whatever. 

[jaytee1812]

I don't think that the show is sending any message about people of color being tokens or not being fit to date white people or whatever.

I don't think the show is saying that people of colour can date white people. I think it's saying they can't date the white woman at the centre of the show.

I think most shows would've had Liv's major love interest in the Ravi or Clive roles. Instead the had Major and had to create a whole storyline around him which detracted from Liv's.

[Chicago Redshirt]

If the show ever introduces a person of color zombie as a recurring or regular character (or changes a person of color regular into a zombie), then we can test that theory.

 

For now, given that Liv has ruled out dating humans, has dated exactly one zombie in her post-zombie existence, and has literally not interacted with a person of color she knows to be a zombie, it doesn't make sense to me at least to be convinced that there is some sort of edict against Liv dating a person of color. 

 

I'm pretty sure that any show like iZombie would create a character like Major (i.e., all her hopes and dreams of her former human life wrapped in one neat package.) Should we read a lot into it that the character is European-American, and is literally named "Major Lilywhite"?

[Julia]

I'm pretty sure that any show like iZombie would create a character like Major (i.e., all her hopes and dreams of her former human life wrapped in one neat package.) Should we read a lot into it that the character is European-American, and is literally named "Major Lilywhite"?

and that once she becomes othered Liv Well can't have him any more? I'm not sure Liv actually codes as default societal identity any more.

ETA

I think most shows would've had Liv's major love interest in the Ravi or Clive roles. Instead the had Major and had to create a whole storyline around him which detracted from Liv's.

Well, her fiance knows she's not psychic, so he couldn't be Clive. The plot revolved around her former fiance not knowing she was a zombie, so he couldn't be Ravi. Not sure why Major's plot detracted from Liv's, since he pretty much acted as the land of lost content all season.

I'd be willing to bet, though, that the actors who play Ravi and Clive would cheerfully trade playing the guy the leading lady isn't sleeping with or the guy she is sleeping with who almost immediately gets killed for playing the accomplished professionals with all the screen time.

And I'm genuinely confused at the idea that a relationship across color lines is only valid if one of the partners is above the title, but that's OK, because Ravi _is_. Peyton is dating a lead. All better?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Julia

[fastiller]

Thanks for the explanation.  I appreciate it.

[Eneya]

Very much depends. If the auditions were blind, your whole arguments goes out of the window.

The idea that in order NOT to be accused of racism and tokenism, they have to HAVE a romantic interest for Liv to be POC, it shifts the whole thing into a different angle and makes it less about the characters and more about race being the defining aspect of those individuals. Quite wrong in itself.

Someone said... that they were the best for the job, well, I don't believe that somehow it is always white men who are the best for the job but it is quite a common argument. I definitely agree, there are LOTS of issues with POC representation (not only) and especially in regards to romance... hell, I remember how uncomfortable I was with the Black Box specific interpretation of a POC man and white woman (I don't know if any of you have seen it)... but I have nothing but respectful feeling from iZombie so far... maybe I am giving them too much credit, maybe I am not sensitive enough because I see plenty of representation of me (well... partially at least) in the media and it doesn't jarr me that much.

 

Whom we date and people we are interested in... of course those things are affected by cultural norms. Hell, my whole dating experience is limited to people who are in my age group and sharing my interests, hobbies and ideas about life... Race could be a factor... but not necessarily, we are drawn to people with whom we share things... in this case, the two POC in the show have characters that simply don't intersect with our main heroine (same goes for VM), however, let us not forget that they were WRITTEN that way. To be honest, I feel iffy in regards to Liv dating her boss... I HATE IT when I see relationships like that, regardless of gender and age or race. In regards to Clive... I simply thing the actors lack any chemistry... however, for VM and WF, they had chemistry but I think the show handled pretty well their friendship. I am sick and tired of the trope that men and women can't be just friends... and this is one of the reasons I am not 100 percent onboard with the race argument... it is a trope that men and women can't be friends and it is a trope that POC all want to be with white women. With sufficient stories, which go trough all kinds of relationships, this tropes could be changed, I hope.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Eneya

[Pothunter]

Would the OP have started this topic had a POC been cast as Major Lilywhite?

 

Another question is, why this show alone? The majority of ongoing shows are suffering from the same affliction, and "because of Veronica Mars" is not a sound reason.

 

A romantic connection with Clive or Ravi would a bad idea, given the zombieism. If Clive were to become a zombie, he would not need Liv for the investigation. Ravi and Liv as zombie lovers would work, but the working relationship would suffer if they broke up. Same problem with Clive. A POC love interest of the month would be termed token.

 

Problems abound, and there is no winning here. The only possible solution is to replace the actor playing Major with a POC, or... kill Major at some point and bring in a POC zombie love interest for the long-term. In the series finale, both can be cured and can live happily ever after.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Pothunter

[Julia]

Actually, the OP's issue was that Clive and Ravi weren't ever going to have story lines or romantic interests. The goalposts have since been moved (by posters other than the OP) to Clive and/or Ravi having romantic interests across color lines (which was also never going to happen), and once that happened to Ravi being in a relationship specifically with Liv.

I'm pretty sure you're correct that there's no winning here.

[editorgrrl]

Actually, the OP's issue was that Clive and Ravi weren't ever going to have story lines or romantic interests.

^This. And the very first reply rightly said:

I think it's a bit early to complain that Ravi or Clyde have no lives or love interests.

Since then, Ravi snarked his way into our hearts and dated Peyton, whilst Clive made the awesomest WTF faces at cheerleader Liv & stoner Liv and got a little backstory & character development.

Clive's not attracted to Liv—and why should he be? She pried into his personal life on shrink brains—even after he pushed back. He's kind of her boss. She's moody & weird & selfish. Clive can do so much better.

And Ravi knows he's a great catch: "Liv, I'm a tall doctor with fantastic hair and a British accent."

[Chicago Redshirt]

Liv has a lot of qualities that might get your average person interested in her: she's mysterious, unpredictable, intelligent and she's hot, to be superficial.

 

In Clive's particular case, they've spent a lot of time together that has mostly seemed to be enjoyable, and he owes her big-time for his professional success. I could see someone being intrigued by someone who they have reason to believe is a psychic. Also, I may be reading Clive's taking a bite of her pizza pie as meaning more than it did. :)

 

I actually think they may eventually go with Clive hitting on Liv while still ignorant of her being a zombie and of zombie-ism in general.

 

As for Ravi, again, I'm superficial, but I do not picture anyone knowingly having a sexual relationship with a iZombieverse zombie. The risk of being turned into a zombie or getting killed by the zombie going into full-on zombie mode during sex is just not worth it.

 

If the show goes on for two or more seasons, I'm fairly sure there will be an episode where Liv eats a nympho's brains and is hitting on everything that moves, including Clive and Ravi.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Julia]

If the show goes on for two or more seasons, I'm fairly sure there will be an episode where Liv eats a nympho's brains and is hitting on everything that moves, including Clive and Ravi.

She already did. She hit on women.

[Chicago Redshirt]

When she was on the painter's brain is slightly different from what I had in mind. She was certainly flirting with a wide swath of people in that episode, but didn't have sex with any of them or seriously attempt to have sex with any of them. 

[Eneya]

Nympho brain. Really??
 

[koalathebear]

With the arrival of Drake, it appears that Liv's white-only romantic interests streak continues.  

 

I am definitely not saying that she should hook up with either Ravi or Clive, I'm just saying that if the actors playing the Ravi and the Clive characters were white, they'd been seen as viable love interests.  I love both of their characters - they're charming, well-rounded, funny and interesting.  They're just not really portrayed as sexually attractive even though Ravi is actually kind of hot ...

[jaytee1812]

On the shallow side why did they cast actors to play Clive and Ravi who are far hotter than any of the white dudes on this show?

[sjohnson]

In the character's defense, Liv must know on some level that Ravi is a Mad Scientist whose dedication to his research threatens the very existence of humanity.

 

Oh, wait, she's not humanity, so maybe that's not such a good defense.

[FurryFury]

At this point I probably wouldn't mind a Ravi/Liv romance, maybe it could get me more invested in the show. I liked Lowell, but Drake is kinda meh, and I'm seriously sick of Liv/Major.

[koalathebear]

Not sure if I'm allowed to post a link here but I made this post about this topic.  I'm not saying that they should hook up, I'm just intrigued that if Ravi had been a hot white dude instead of a hot brown dude, there would be a lot more UST there - canon and extrapolated by shippers.

[Julia]

I can't see Liv and Ravi or Clive together because Ravi and Clive are sane, goal oriented fellows. Liv is way too immature for either of them, and she only goes for guys who are as screwed up as she is (assuming three instances makes a trend). Well, that and the dooming them to eventual destruction as a shambling undead horror if she has sex with them thing.

I think the love interests the two of them already have are pretty badass, although Peyton may be a zombie now.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Julia

[sjohnson]

Ravi knows there are zombies and any moment one can spread zombiism in an uncontrollable outbreak that threatens death on a massive scale. Think World War Z. But he doesn't tell anybody because? Because he wants to find a cure first? Because he doesn't want Liv's life upended?

 

Dude's nuts in my opinion.

 

Clive's not, which in my opinion perfectly explains Liv's caution in dealing with him.